1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. Many people have an appetite 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: for films and television shows about organized crime, whether it 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: be The Godfather, The Sopranos, Goodfellas, or Scarface. The public's 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: fascination with the mafia never ends. My guest today, however, 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: is not a fictionalized character on screen. He's not Tony 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Soprano or Don Corleone, but a real life mafioso who, 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: by his own admission, committed countless atrocities. Sammy the Boll 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: Gravano had a long and notorious career in La Cosa Nostra, 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn based Sicilian crime family, where he served as 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: underboss to the infamous John Gotti. Yet the man who 12 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: once upheld the mafia code of silence or omerta, turned 13 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: state's evidence against his own, sending Gotti and many others 14 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: to prison. And now Gravano is talking and talking and 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: talking on several social media platforms. I recently found that 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: he has a podcast entitled Our Thing, detailing the exploits 17 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: of his career. In its five seasons, Our Thing tells 18 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: stories from Gravano's early days as a teenage gangster to 19 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: how he methodically plans a killing. The stories are both 20 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: disturbing and captivating. During my conversation with him, I had 21 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: to remind myself that Gravano is the real thing. But 22 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: first a conversation with the man who convinced Gravano to 23 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: record the podcast. Director, producer, cinematographer and editor James Carroll 24 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: has worked on hit reality shows like Undercover Boss and 25 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: gritty documentaries about police corruption and a serial killer. He 26 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: once was embedded with drug lords in the Dominican Republic 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: while filming a documentary. Despite Carol's credentials working with dangerous subjects, 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: sitting in a studio alongside a known assassin is still 29 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: a perilous challenge. I wanted to know how he first 30 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: came to work with Sammy the Boll Gravano. So I'm 31 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: wrapped at w M ME and one day I get 32 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: a call and there's this production company that has secured 33 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: Sammy the Bull and they were like, we want you 34 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: to meet Sammy at our boardroom in Beverly Hills at 35 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: w M And I said great. Now, just so you know, 36 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: I had no I mean, I knew who Sammy the 37 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: Bull was and my mom is Italian. My grandfather was 38 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, Italian, but you know, I'm half Italian. I 39 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: knew what Sammy was, but I never really knew who 40 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: he was. So I go into the meeting, and I 41 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: do this with everyone that I meet. I don't want 42 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: to know anything about you. I really don't read about you. 43 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to research you. I don't want to 44 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: know really anything about you, because what I want to 45 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: do is when I meet you, I want to experience that, 46 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: just you and me. So I go in there and 47 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: there's you know, agents and the production companies in there, 48 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: and he's sitting right across from me, and I'm a 49 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: big guy. I'm like six too, and you know, I 50 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: shake his hand and we sit down and uh, he 51 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: looks at me and he's like and I can tell 52 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: he's you know, I've been around killers. At this point, 53 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: I did the intensity I'm gravitated to and I'm comfortable with. 54 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: And he says, tell me about yourself. So I start 55 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: telling him, you know, about myself. He does to you 56 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: what you normally do to other people, but go ahead exactly. 57 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: So I'm in the hot seat and I play along, 58 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: and I mentioned that my mom's Italian. And at the 59 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: end he's like, is your dad Italian? And I said no, 60 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: and he's like, well, then you're not fucking Italian, are you? 61 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: And I look at him and I said, I never 62 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: said I was fucking Italian? Did I? Sammy? And at 63 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: that moment, I think there was this connection where we 64 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: instantly bonded. At that sit down, he was testing you, 65 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: he was and and he knew that what I know 66 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: I know, and what I don't know I don't know. 67 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: And I'm totally comfortable with that, you know, And that 68 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: freaks people out sometimes, but like that, that's just me. 69 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: And we got up from that meeting. We walked around, 70 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: we walked around Beverly, you know, we just hit it off. 71 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: And that was eighteen It was a long time ago. 72 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 1: The concept of the meeting going in was he wanted 73 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: to do a podcast or he didn't know he wanted 74 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: to do a documentary. What did he want? So the 75 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: production company was trying to sell his story as a 76 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: documentary for television and they wanted me to be a 77 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: director on it. I you know, I was interested. They 78 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: wanted me, you know whatever. Now it gets to the 79 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: point where the production company sends me over to Arizona 80 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: alone to hang out with him. Right, I go over, 81 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: actually drive over because I was like, you know, I 82 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: don't really want to be there. I want to have 83 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: my own card. And I show up to his house. 84 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: I walked right in. I sit down in his family room, 85 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: and for the next three days I have got you know, 86 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: I've got a notebook behind me somewhere I'm just writing story. No, 87 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: I want to experience it. I want to feel it. 88 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: I want to put it up in my head and 89 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: write it out. So I'm like, you know, he tells 90 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: me a tremendous amount, which by the way, again did 91 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: not research, did not read, did not know a lot 92 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: about the moth uh, you know, just knew the headlines, whatever. 93 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: But I wanted to experience what it was like for him. 94 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: So I'm writing all this. I'm like starring all this, 95 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is unbelievable. Like I'm sitting next 96 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: to a guy who was at the table pretty much 97 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: every single table, and I love that. I love anyone 98 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: who was there. I gravitate to people like that. I 99 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: gravitate to characters like that. So I'm all in on 100 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: this guy, and he reminds me of my grandfather, and 101 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: we develop a friendship. Really, all of this happens throughout 102 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: a year. It's a documentary. No, it's not a documentary. 103 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: We're not gonna buy it. Oh, it's a podcast. Okay, 104 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: well it's it's a podcast here. Okay, it's a podcast 105 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: over there, you know what is it? And then covid 106 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: hits and so finally it ends up with Sammy calling 107 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: me not connected to anyone at this point, solo because 108 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: they couldn't sell and nothing happened, and he's like, hey, 109 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: do you want to do a podcast with me? And 110 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: I said, sure, like I'd love that. You know, I 111 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: have no problem with that. Why do you think he 112 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: wanted to do that? Other than beyond money? There are 113 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: two things that are in play here. One, he's labeled something. 114 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: He has been labeled something since and you know, I've 115 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: met enough people and heard enough stories at this point 116 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: in my life and career that when I meet him, 117 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: I know the label, right. The label is a rat 118 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: or a rat, you know, And I start to kind 119 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: of dig and try to understand this individual who you 120 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: just asked the question that I asked at the very 121 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: beginning when I sat down with them. You know how 122 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: could you do this? And it took me a year 123 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: to realize and figure out why the relationship that he 124 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: had with Cosa Nostra and which on turned in when 125 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: they were locked up, when they were extracted from their club, 126 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: the Raven Night and taken to jail and stuck in 127 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: this prison for one year, tape started to come out 128 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: and GODDI the relationship really really took a turn for 129 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: the worst, and you know, Sammy was hurt by that, 130 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden the tapes come out. God, 131 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: he is on the tapes. There's a lot of stuff 132 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: that's happening behind the scenes with you know, their relationship 133 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: within prison. And then he says in the podcast, I 134 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: believe in episode one, and you know we're going into 135 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: season five now, so I believe it was repeated in 136 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: late in season four. But he said, if it if 137 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: it comes down to this, if this is what Cosa 138 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: Nostra is, and he's all, he lived such a life 139 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: in it. If this is what it comes down to, 140 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: the backstabbing, the line, the cheating, the craziness of John Gotti, 141 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: well then Funcket, I don't want to be a part 142 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: of this life anymore. What was it that would appeal 143 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: to you about the audio only project. I started in radio, 144 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think that that's not really out there. 145 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: But when I was thirteen, I was obsessed with with 146 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: radio for some reason. This was in the mid nineties, 147 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: so you know, before the cell phone, social the internet, 148 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: and I remember telling my parents. I was like, you know, 149 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: I really want to work at a radio station. And 150 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: they were like, there's absolutely no way you're gonna work 151 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: at a radio station, Like, you know, you're a kid. 152 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: That doesn't happen until later. And I really stalked this 153 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: one night show DJ, you know, I just called him 154 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: and called him and called him, you know, in a 155 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: in a way that was like weird but also endearing 156 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: because I was, you know, a kid. And I finally 157 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: got my way into the station, like I was like, 158 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: let me just sit in with you one day. So 159 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: I was sitting there watching him do the whole night 160 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: show thing, and I was like, this is my life, 161 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: like I love this, and and I really didn't want 162 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: to be on the radio. I wanted to do everything 163 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. I was like interested in in programming music, 164 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: I was interested in how it all worked. And I 165 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: got a summer internship when I was fifteen. So a 166 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: couple of years later, and I remember the day that 167 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: my summer internship was over. I went to the g 168 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: MS office. I like literally just barged right in and 169 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: I said, I can't leave here, Like there's no way 170 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: that I can leave here. You have me dust something like, 171 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't pay me. I have to like be here. 172 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: I have to be a part of this. Where were 173 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: you living then, I was. I grew up in St. Petersburg, Florida. 174 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: I was born and raised in St. Pete, Florida's so 175 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: this was, you know, the mid nineties. This was you know, 176 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: a hot a C station. So we were like playing 177 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: Phil Collins and Steve Winwood and all of that stuff. 178 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: And he was like great. And what ended up happening 179 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: was I I started to really go there Monday through 180 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: Friday and really work there. And I was homeschooled through 181 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: high school, so it kind of helped out with the 182 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, the scheduling. And I was fascinated by what 183 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: happened when they turned off the microphone. So I picked 184 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: up a video camera, not knowing anything about I mean 185 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: just nothing, like I was like, let me just get 186 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: a video camera. Let me just start filming these personalities 187 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: because I was obsessed with characters and their stories. And 188 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: what happened when they turned off the mic was like crazy, Well, 189 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: they were just different, you know, very much robotic on 190 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, a script was in front of you, and 191 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: they were like this is the weather, and blah blah blah. 192 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: You know how they are. And when they turned off 193 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: the microphone, they became authentic. And I craved authenticity, like 194 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: I wanted that more than anything. So I pitched a 195 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: radio station down there an idea. I was like, listen, 196 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: I got a camera. I don't know anything, but let 197 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: me go in there and let me start filming you guys. 198 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: And what I did was I and this was now, 199 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: this was early two thousands, so this was before YouTube, 200 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: This was before you know, a lot of the stuff. 201 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: And I would film hours and hours and hours of 202 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: these radio personalities off the air. I would go home 203 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: with them. I would I would go to events with 204 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: them and really never really regretting taking that kid's phone call. 205 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: We're taking a shower and you're like, what are you doing, Hey, 206 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: what are you doing in there? Let me get in there, 207 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: let me get that shot. So I started cutting it together. 208 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: We put together a monthly video that was like seven 209 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: to ten minutes long, and we uploaded it every month 210 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: on the website and it became like, you know, it 211 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: was written up in Billboard, it was in the New 212 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: York Times, and that's what landed me out in Los Angeles. 213 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: That's what kind of propelled me out here. And when 214 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: I landed out here, they were like, what do you 215 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: want to do this production company? And I was like, oh, 216 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm a director, you know, and they were like what, 217 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: You're not a director And I'm like I'm not and 218 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: they're like, no, you're You've got to like start as 219 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: a p A. Yeah, you're Jimmy Olsen so Superman. So 220 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: they I did not go into production. Weirdly enough, I 221 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: was like, well, I don't want to be a p A. 222 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: Like what else do you have? And they were like, well, 223 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: you can digitize tapes at night. So I was like, okay, 224 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: that sounds good. So I worked overnights digitizing tapes for 225 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: three months and I literally was like, this is the 226 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: worst decision I've ever made, This is this is I 227 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing. And I went to the 228 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: owner and walked right in again and I sat in 229 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: front of him and I was like, listen, I can't 230 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: do this. You gotta give me something creative or else 231 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: I gotta leave. And they were like, well you got 232 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: cut a sizzle and I was like, well, what's that? 233 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: You know? And I cut a sizzle That turned into 234 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: a pilot, which turned into two series of television on 235 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: On A and E. And that's kind of what got 236 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: my start as an editor first. So that was a 237 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: show called Obsessed, which is all about O c D. 238 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: And what we did was we followed the cognitive behavioral 239 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: therapy of an individual throughout the course of like sixteen weeks. 240 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: And again it was you know, authentic, and I really 241 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: enjoyed that. I I loved dealing with real people. I'm 242 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: so happy and fortunate that I got to do that 243 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: instead of some reality show, which was not what I 244 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: was interested in In the beginning of your career, is 245 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: out of part of it? You enlisting people to talk? 246 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: Is that a skill you developed? Oh? I think so, 247 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot that you know, remember, there's 248 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: a lot going on behind the scenes when when I 249 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: do these projects, there's a lot happening as you know, 250 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot of development happening. There's a lot of 251 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: relationship building. There's a lot of projects that are started 252 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: that are never completed because they're not financed. So I'm 253 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: being put into situations where the production companies will say, hey, 254 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: go take a camera and go out there and film 255 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: this guy. And I'm like, well, who is he? And 256 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: he's like, he's a convicted killer. And I drive out 257 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: by myself, and you know that. There was this one 258 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: time where I was in the middle of California and 259 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: it was a slaughterhouse. Literally, they were killing cows. And 260 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: there's this you know, massive dude, and he's sitting in 261 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: this shack and I go in and there's a guy 262 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: on the on the sofa and I'm sure these guys 263 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: are armed, right, but I've got a camera, you know, 264 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: and and they and everybody comes down. Well, they want 265 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: me there because for some reason, these guys they love 266 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: when I'm there. And I listened to them because it's 267 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: more than just me with the care, it's I actually 268 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: am interested and I and I care about your story 269 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: in a very human way. I'm not I'm not trying 270 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: to get in there and get all the crazy stuff. 271 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: I'm actually trying to figure you out tell me your story, 272 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: and I care and they see that, you know, they 273 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: realize that. And I go in there and no one's 274 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: there with me. I really roll a lot by myself. 275 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: So I set out the came I set up the mic, 276 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: and this dude sitting in you know, a plastic chair 277 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: in the middle of this abandoned shot, and I start 278 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: asking him questions and I'm like, so, what's going on? Man, 279 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, where are we? First of all? You know, 280 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: and this is by design. Halfway through the interview, you know, 281 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: they start actually killing and you hear the screams of 282 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: the cattle. Yeah, and you and and the intimidation sets 283 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: in and you're like, okay, this is with intention, and 284 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: this is an intimidation. In that moment, I'm like, okay, 285 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: I got a little baby at home, you know, I 286 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: have a wife, and I'm here all alone. And and 287 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: you just commit to it, and you and you try 288 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: not to show any fear because at the end of 289 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: the day, like I said, I'm here to listen to 290 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: your story. Our Thing creator and producer James Carroll. If 291 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: you love conversations with creative minds, be sure to check 292 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: out my episode with Radio and podcast producer Ira Glass. 293 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this show reflects my taste, but also I 294 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: have to say the taste of my coworkers, you know, 295 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: like it's not just mine at this point, like it's 296 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: something that we all share and I happen to be 297 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 1: the front man, and in that way, it's different than 298 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: than it was from the beginning, Like I am the 299 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: frontman for this thing that we make together, like somebody 300 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: who's in a band that's been playing for a long time. 301 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: Here more of my conversation with Ira Glass that Here's 302 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: the Thing dot Org. After the break, James Carroll shares 303 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: the way the Our Thing podcast is a form of 304 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: therapy for Gravano, and later in the program my talk 305 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: with Sammy Gravano about what it was like working with 306 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: the Gambino crime family boss John Gotti. I'm Alec Baldwin 307 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. James Carroll has 308 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: worked with Sammy the Bull Gravano for five seasons on 309 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: the Our Thing podcast. I wanted to know in all 310 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: of their time working together, if Gravano had expressed any 311 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: signs of remorse. I've asked that question and we've talked 312 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: about that privately. What did he say. I don't think 313 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: he has remorse. It's very much like the question I 314 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: asked him when the first time. This was the first 315 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: time I asked him and the only time I asked him. 316 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: You know, he was telling me about a gunfight that 317 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: he was in, and I was like, were you scared? 318 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: And he looks at me and he's like, that's a 319 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: really dumb question. And to you and I you know 320 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: that that's a serious question. That's a you know, I'm 321 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: scared because of whatever? And he said, you got to 322 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: realize I've done this my entire life. That's scared. It 323 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: would be like you, you know, going into your car 324 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: and driving, are you scared when you drive? Right? So 325 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: to ask that question to him, you know, are you 326 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: remorseful or do you look back? I I think he 327 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: was extremely calculated. I think he made those decisions. I 328 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: don't believe he makes emotional decisions. Al I just was 329 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: wondering if, because there's something about him, do you think 330 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: you function for people like this? And this is a 331 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: maybe a tired question as somewhat of a therapist. Are 332 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: these sessions therapy for him? Oh? I think so? You know, 333 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: he's he's emoded in front of me, you know, on camera. 334 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: And again for some reason, I've been gifted an ability 335 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: to be around individuals and for them to be extremely comfortable. 336 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: So it's very much a perfect union when when that happens. 337 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: His love for Cosa Nostra is the real deal love 338 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: like this dude loved Cosa Nostra when it worked, when 339 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: it worked, all the way to the end. I think 340 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: there was a lot going on in like the late 341 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: eighties and John Gotti was very, very difficult as a boss, 342 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: and he really turned the mafia into something that they 343 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: were not used to. But the old and this is 344 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: what I love about these stories, the old days, the 345 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: old the original like early days of Sammy the Bull 346 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: in the sixties and early seventies where he was around 347 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: the gangsters of the forties and fifties that were like 348 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: that was their heyday. Those are incredible stories and the relationships, 349 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: the very thing you were there for and that you 350 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: did when that was taken away, What was the point 351 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: in that was the protection of the group. With us, 352 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: we take care of each other. We're safe. No one's 353 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: ever gonna hurt you. It's like NATO. Anybody that attacks 354 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: you attacks us. Anybody that your enemy is our enemy. 355 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: We have your back and in this life with us, 356 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: we're going to take care of you. Don't you worry. 357 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: No one's gonna funk with you. Where your family blah 358 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And the minute that went away, the 359 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: minute you couldn't rely on that, what's the point? What's 360 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: the point? You know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is he still 361 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: in any danger? I don't think so. No. I mean listen, 362 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: I drive, you know, he drives me around. So you're 363 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: gonna love this story. So it's one of the first 364 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: times I'm over there. He drives, you know, a very 365 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: four door, small compact car. Okay, this isn't a Lincoln 366 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: Mercedes or so we hop in and he's like, you're hungry, 367 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, I'm hungry. He's like, we're gonna 368 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: go to p F Chains. So we drive and you know, 369 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: Arizona Phoenix area, there's you know, obviously a lot of road, 370 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, the lanes, and real quickly I understand what's 371 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: going on. You know, this is a man who usually 372 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: was driven around, has spent a tremendous amount of time 373 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: in isolation, and you know, he was about a year 374 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: and a half out at that point when I when 375 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: I first met him, and you know, we're a little 376 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 1: bit all over the place. We go to p F. Chang's. 377 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: We sit down. He starts telling me about you know, 378 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: hits and and everything, and I'm like looking over and 379 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: there's this, you know, poor woman who's trying to eat 380 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: her spicy chicken and she's hearing this crazy story and she, 381 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: you know, she can't believe it, and I can't believe 382 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: that I'm sitting here with Sammy the Bull who has 383 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: the glasses on and whatever. So we get back in 384 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: the car and he rolls down the window and he 385 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: lights a cigarette and we drive away and we stop 386 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: at this stop sign and there's this bicyclist coming up. 387 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: And I see the bicyclist and I'm like, oh god, 388 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, here we go, right And this is early 389 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: on in my relationship, so I don't really have the 390 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: back and forth that I would have with him now. 391 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: So he starts to go, and then the bicyclist, oh, 392 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: you know, and he slams on his brakes and the 393 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: bicyclist turns around, and I mean, the guy had no 394 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: clue who he was dealing with, and it's like, you know, 395 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: fuck you man, you know whatever, whatever, and Sammy's like, 396 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: fuck me, fuck it out, you know, and and really 397 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: just starts to scream at him, and I'm like, holy shit, 398 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: like fuck man, I'm gonna be involved, and I don't 399 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen out and meet him. Yeah, he's 400 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 1: gonna he's gonna run over him. I don't know what's happening. 401 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: So the guy drives away and he won't let it go, right. 402 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: He's talking about it that night, he's talking about it 403 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: the next day, and to this day, we still talk 404 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: about the guy in the bicyclist. My last question for 405 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: you is there's more square mileage here for you to 406 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: explore with him you're doing in another season or you 407 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: kind of is it winding down in terms of what 408 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: he has to offer with me? I think it's it's 409 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: winding down. I'm still a part of it. I still 410 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: help him. Really, no one else touched the project except 411 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: Sammy and myself. It's very rare that this happens. And 412 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: you know this, It's like usually there's producers weighing in 413 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: and whoever is the money person and like, but it 414 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: was just really just Sammy and I would send the 415 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: cuts to Sammy, and Sammy is extremely smart when it 416 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: comes to like storytelling, when it comes to what's good 417 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: and what's not. He has taste, which I believe that 418 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: you can't be taught, you have to be born with. 419 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: So I believe that now there's new things that he's 420 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: going to be doing, and I think it's exciting for him, 421 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm excited for him, but I think for 422 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: for me, I ran, you know, the mileage, I got 423 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: the information. I'm very happy with how the podcast turned out. 424 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: What have you learned? What you learn from him? You know, 425 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: I love to romanticize about things. I love that. You know. 426 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: I sit there and I think about things and I think, oh, 427 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: this is the type of person he is, or this 428 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: is that this is what I want to do with him, 429 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: you know, one of the knights of the round Table exactly. 430 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: You know. I I just I just romanticize about it, 431 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: and I think because I'm putting it through my filter, 432 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: which is like I'm a certain way, and I'm I'm 433 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: very you know, I love emotion and I love depth 434 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: and I love authenticity. And when I first started the project, 435 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I'm gonna get in there and 436 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get what's there, but I found out that 437 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: there's nothing there, and that's okay. That's the type of 438 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: person he is, and people are that way. There are 439 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: people out there that are that way. He's that type 440 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: of creature he is, And you know, at the end 441 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: of the day, I have spent what four or five 442 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: years with him. Now we we we talk on the phone. 443 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: You know, he calls me up, We have personal conversations. 444 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: I know his family, he knows my family, so you know, 445 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: there's that. But at the end of the day, he 446 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: is that person and that's it. Period. Man, this podcast, 447 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: we couldn't stop listening. We couldn't believe it. So thank 448 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to do this. 449 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: Thank you, Alex, Thank you very much. Our Thing creator 450 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: James Carroll. Sammy Gravano was convicted for his participation in 451 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: nineteen murders, including his role in the hit on the 452 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: then head of the Gambino crime family, Paul Castellano. Gravano 453 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: worked as underboss to John Gotti before serving time alongside 454 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: Gotti in prison until he cut a plea deal. He 455 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: testified as a government witness against Gotti and thirty other mobsters. 456 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: Gravano was released early and entered the witness protection program, 457 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: which he left after less than a year. It seems 458 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: the pull of a life of crime was inescapable, as 459 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: Gravano returned to prison in two thousand for running an 460 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: ecstasy drug ring. He was released in two thousand seventeen 461 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: and started telling his story on the Hour Thing podcast 462 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: just a few years later. Gravano grew up in benson Hurst, Brooklyn, 463 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: born to Sicilian immigrants. Since he was still a teenager 464 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: when he entered the life, I was curious to learn 465 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: about his relationship with his parents and what they knew 466 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: about his activities. I was in my thirties. I was 467 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: already made guy. They never knew that. But they were 468 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: hard working people. They worked ten twelve hours a day. 469 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter, 470 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: and then they opened up a small little dress factory 471 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: and he went and worked with huh And they worked 472 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: hard their whole life. They didn't have a lot of money, 473 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: but whatever they had, it was always shared with the 474 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: family at dinner or this and that of the other. Thing. 475 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: They bought a small little house in Lake Ronkonkoma in 476 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: Long Island, and uh, it was always old, the uncles 477 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: and cousins and everybody there back when that was the 478 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: Boon Ducks. But that was definitely a boon right out there. Then. Yeah, 479 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: now it's probably all crowded, but yeah, yeah, So they 480 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: were like that. They were great, legitimate people. I mean, 481 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: but I was always in trouble. I was always the 482 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: black sheep. But by the time I went into the military, 483 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: I was nineteen. I got drafted during the Vietnam War. 484 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: They had retired and moved to Long Island. Then they 485 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: moved back into Staton Island. They passed away and uh, 486 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: living against that island. But I wish I could have 487 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: spent a lot of more time with my father going 488 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: just simple things, going to a baseball game or something 489 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: like that. Will go fishing. He was originally in Italy, 490 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: was a fisherman, so going fishing with him was you know, 491 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: like a big day. And I really didn't give them 492 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: any money. I didn't have anything while they were you know, 493 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: working until they got very old. Then I took care 494 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: of them as best as I could, but they didn't 495 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: need it. They had their retirement money, very small appetite 496 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: to do anything. They were up in age. They were sickly, 497 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: but I was always there to take care of them, 498 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: connections with doctors, whatever I could possibly do. They never 499 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: asked me where I got money or did anything, because 500 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: I really when they were alive, I didn't have big money. 501 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: Big money started flowing, you know, throwing their real old 502 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: age sick and passed away. I was in three mafia wars, 503 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: and I planned and plotted in two of them. I 504 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: started off in the Colombo family. There was two parts 505 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: to it, the Profaci and the Gallows. Everybody went to 506 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: prison and stopped when crazy Joe Gallo came out. The 507 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: second part started. I was already with the Colombo people. 508 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: I did already work, meaning Amarda. I was eventually transferred 509 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: over to the Gambino family, and in the Gambino family, 510 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: when Angelo Bruno was killed in Philadelphia, there was a 511 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: war broke out. I listened to the story on the podcast. 512 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: Yeah the guy you took out to the golf club, 513 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: yess Johnny Keys, So they couldn't five families and the 514 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: Philadelphia family couldn't kill him, and I wound up getting 515 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: the hit and I wound up killing them. It was 516 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: a commission hit. It's it's at the highest level. And 517 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: then I controlled the whole Castiliano hit. I did the 518 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: planning and the plotting, and I was on the hit. 519 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: John got he was in the car next to me. 520 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: He was my driver. I had the Walkee talky and 521 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: I controlled eleven people who are on the hit. Now, 522 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: Johnny Keys in the podcast, you tell that story. He 523 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: was old school and he was. He was like teaching 524 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: you in the car to do the hit not get caught. 525 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: You felt this admiration for him, and you thought he 526 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: was this great old school guy. But at the same time, 527 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 1: he did the hit without the approval of the commission. Correct, 528 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: you were ordered to kill him because he broke the rules. Correct, Well, 529 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: he didn't actually do to hit, I mean on Angelo Bruno. 530 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: That that was all bullshit. He was actually Angelo Bruno's cousin. 531 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: He was fighting the other side. I mean we really 532 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: it was their problem, their thing. And you know, like 533 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: you said, he was, you know, telling me how to 534 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: do the hit on himself. And I came to learn 535 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: now that I'm writing, is that we were like to Samurai's. 536 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: We were both hit guys. He was a lot better, older, smarter, 537 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: wiser than me, and we met on the battlefield. And 538 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: what happened is when he was in that vent, he 539 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: knew he lost. He knew I did something that the 540 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: whole six families couldn't do. And he had a respect 541 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: for me, and uh, he actually was educating me and 542 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: teaching me Goes in Austria, knowing he was gonna die. 543 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: But if you know about samurais when they lose, they 544 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,239 Speaker 1: want to die, but they want to die in an 545 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: honorable way. Whether they push shoes off, yes, Well with 546 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: him it was his shoes off. He was sending a 547 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: message to his wife. Who would do that at seventy 548 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: years old. I mean, he blew me away with things 549 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: he wanted. But I understood it later on when it 550 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: was explained I became Goes in Austria mostly because of 551 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: him in a way that I wasn't before. Sort of 552 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: door to my life closed on that head. You went 553 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: to prison twice or three times. I went lengthy times. 554 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: I went a bunch of times, but I went in 555 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety I got a five year bit the thing 556 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: with John Gotti and I cooperated. The second time I 557 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: went to prison, I got a twenty year bit. I 558 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: did almost eighteen years straight so you do eighteen years 559 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: straight and you'd already testified. Yeah, you've already left Witness 560 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: protect and correct. Yeah. I was only in the Witness 561 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: Protection fate months. Why did you want to get out 562 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: of Witness Protection? Well, I wanted no part of it. 563 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: I had money when I got out of prison. I 564 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 1: wanted no part of the Witness Protection program. You had 565 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: to change your name and do things and live by 566 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: certain rules. I did my time. I didn't need their help, 567 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: I didn't need their money, but they wanted me bed. 568 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: They said, Sammy, you got nineteen murders. You got said, 569 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: it's to five years. The government did the right thing 570 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: with you. You're gonna make them look like horseshit if 571 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,719 Speaker 1: you don't come in, give them some more time, volunteer 572 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: for this program. They could pound their chest a little bit. 573 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: I felt that they did treat me right. And I 574 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: did a five year sentence. It should have did a 575 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: hell of a lot more than that. So I agreed 576 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: to do one year and one year only, and that's 577 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: what I did, and I stayed in the program. Some 578 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: woman recognized me. They wanted me to start over. I 579 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't do it. So in eight months, I said I 580 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: promised you one year. I'm not starting over, and they 581 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: said you have to. I said, what, I'm not going 582 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: to and they said, well, then you'd have to sign out. 583 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: And I said that I'm gonna sign out. I promise 584 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: you I'm in eight months. I promise you a year. 585 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: Four more months I'll give you, and if you don't 586 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: accept that, then I quit. I'm out, And I quit. 587 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: I was out, and I went to Arizona where my 588 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: family was. And you weren't afraid. No, you're out of 589 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: witness protection. Your view to somebody that turned on John. 590 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: So when you go to prison for the ecstasy charges, 591 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 1: is that probably one of the most nerve wracking times 592 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: of your life because I would imagine were you afraid 593 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: they were gonna get you when you were in prison? 594 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: I thought they would. I mean, I'm coming in with 595 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: a lot of baggage. I had a twenty year sentence. 596 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: That's where all these tattoos came from. What I did 597 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: is I tattooed up and I said, as soon as 598 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: somebody fox with me, I'm gonna kill him in prison. 599 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: I thought I'd never get out of prison and I 600 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,439 Speaker 1: would probably dye in prison. So I said, I got 601 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: nothing to lose, and that's what I'm gonna do. I 602 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: tattooed up. I put that in my prison hat on 603 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: and I said, the first person who foxed with me, 604 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill. And that's gonna push people away thinking 605 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: about coming over to me or fucking with me. But 606 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: it really never happened. You're doing this work, and the 607 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: whole time you're doing this work, there's a whole layer 608 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: of society that's out to get you. Was there a 609 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: part of you that you understood that you didn't begrudge 610 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: them that they had a job to do. Did you 611 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: kind of recognize that and say, hey, these guys, you know, 612 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: we're breaking the law and they gotta do what they 613 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: gotta do. Or did you think all of them were 614 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: the enemy? No? No, Yeah, listen, I I dealt with 615 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: a lot of agents on a constant basis. I got 616 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: to know their names and who they were. I saw 617 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: them every day watching and they were legit in other ways. 618 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: They had a job and I didn't we you know, 619 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: to catch us. We had a job is to get away. 620 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: And uh, as long as they told the truth, I 621 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: don't begrudged them. It's people who lied about people made 622 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: up lines and did all kinds of bullshit that I 623 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: hated them, But after I cooperated, I got to know them. 624 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: I actually lived with them for years. I was in 625 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: Quantico Military Base for months and months and months. I 626 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: lived with them every day in a week, and I 627 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: got to know a lot of them. I got to trust, 628 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: like Frankie, potentially, Yes, now beyond the ones that were 629 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: handling you, if you will, when you're testified and so forth, 630 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: during your career, when you're out and you're younger, when 631 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: you're a made guy and there's a lot of money 632 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: on the line, I would assume you wanted the cops 633 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: to cooperate with you, or there were times when it 634 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: would be helpful with the cops cooperated with you, and 635 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: you didn't want to get that wrong, meaning you didn't 636 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: want to go after a guy and make a play 637 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: on a cop or somebody, and you didn't know if 638 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: he was going to cooperate with you, meaning was there 639 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: a towel, Was there a towel? You would see they 640 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: would tell you that the cop was ready to come over, 641 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: and he was dirty, and he would keep in cooperate 642 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, I mean, it became obvious you kind 643 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: of distinguished the difference. Like this guy Frank and Maddie. 644 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: They used to call him the twins. You saw one, 645 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: you saw the other. I saw them all the time. 646 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: One time, Christmas time, I came to my office and 647 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: my secretary was. There was snow and it was cold, 648 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: and she said that Frank and Maddie are out there watching. 649 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: She even knew their name. We knew their names and everything. 650 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: So I said, how long were the out there? She 651 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: said quite a while. So I got a box, cardboard box. 652 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: I got some coffee, I got cookies, all kinds of 653 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: Cannoli's everything, and I put a box full of stuff. 654 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 1: I went out. I walked to the car in the snow, 655 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: knocked on the window, as said, bro, you guys don't 656 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 1: ever go home. I said, I mean, this is our job. 657 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: I said, here's a box of cookies and coffee and 658 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: stuff like that. So they said, no, we can't take that. 659 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: I said, listen, it's not a bribe. It's cookies. Brolet's say. 660 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: I know you're not gonna do nothing, so take the 661 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: fucking cookies. They took the cookies, and uh, when I flipped, 662 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: those are the guys. I actually flipped with now John Gotti. 663 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: Did you think he was a good boss? Ever, No, 664 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: he wasn't a good boss. He's not an actor. We're 665 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: not actors with gangsters. It's a secret society and a brotherhood. 666 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: Let me give you a little Carlo Gambino, when he 667 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: came in the room in a restaurant, all you did 668 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: was look all right, I and give a slight nod 669 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: of the head. And that's your saying hello. You don't 670 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: go give him a bottle of champagne. You don't wave hey, Carlo, 671 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: we don't do that. So what he did as he 672 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: exposed all of goes in Austria. When I cooperated, I 673 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: was living with the government. The government loved him. What 674 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: he did was gave up the home mouth here on 675 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: a silver platter on his ego. He was a narcissist 676 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: who put on this show. He bought into the whole 677 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: dapper Don thing without a doubt. If he knew what 678 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: reporter was gonna say, call him to Dappadon, the reporter 679 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: could have called him up and say listen, I'm gonna 680 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: do an article. I'm gonna call you the Dappadon. He 681 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: would have got a hundred thousand who did you think 682 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: was good? Who's someone else in organized crime that he 683 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,479 Speaker 1: really admired, Frankie the Chico. He was like a big 684 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 1: brother to me. And uh. When John and his crew 685 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: were in trouble for Dylan drugs, they were gonna get 686 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: taken out. They came to me and Frankie, to Chico 687 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: and a guy named Joe Piney a few people for 688 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: help to be in this war without us. He he 689 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: doesn't he doesn't live. When I talked to Frankie Chico 690 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: about it, I didn't want to be in that wall, 691 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: and I told Frankie, well, if we're gonna be in it, 692 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,839 Speaker 1: I want you to be the boss. He said, I 693 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 1: could be his under boss. He can't be mine. He's 694 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: got an ego like the Empire staple and we'll have 695 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: nothing but trouble. Let him will take over, Let him 696 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: be the boss, will be the power behind the throne. 697 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: If he doesn't act right, I give him my word, 698 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: will kill him. I'll be the boss. You'll be my 699 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: under boss. I said, yes. Now, I'm gonna give you 700 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: an example of Frankie Chico what I think of him. 701 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: John had a powerful crew, no question. I had a 702 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: powerful crew, no question. If you put out two crews together, 703 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: we were in a pimpo on Frankie Chico's ass. That 704 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: was the real power. His whole family, women in the family. 705 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: I think, if you killed somebody in front of Bell, 706 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: help you move the body. So this this was the 707 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: real deal. As father, his uncle's were made, everybody's whole 708 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 1: family and people loved him. So this was the real power. 709 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: He's the guy who got blown up four months after 710 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: the hit. Did you ever get the impression that John's son, 711 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: that John Jr. Was gonna try to do something to you? 712 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: So he was out there trying to find you. While 713 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: John was alive, I knew he would send a team 714 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: down again. I'm a professional hit guy of mega proportions, 715 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: and I waited for that team. I was armed every 716 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 1: single day. I lived in an area in a spot 717 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: that I always had the advantage. I always knew exactly 718 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: what I was doing, where I was gonna sit, and 719 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: I was always armed. When I got pinched for the 720 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,959 Speaker 1: ecstasy in my house, I had four guns hidden, all 721 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: of them loaded, one shotgun and three pistols and at 722 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: three fifty seven magnum by my side. While I slept, 723 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: I waited for them to come. I knew John would 724 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: send them. They did. They found me. They sat on 725 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: me for months and months and months, and they always 726 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: felt like they would never be in the proper position. 727 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: And one guy, Huck, who was in my crew made 728 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: guy said I'll guarantee you Sammy's gonna have a gun. 729 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: I guarantee you he won't run, and I'll guarantee you 730 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: he's gonna try and kill us. And he was a 731 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: thousand percent right. But before they had a chance to 732 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: make the move, they sat on me for months, and 733 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 1: we're afraid to make the move. I got pinched for 734 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: ecstasy and I went to prison and that was over. 735 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: So I didn't underestimate that John would send somebody. He 736 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: talked to his brother Pete, who became the boss, a 737 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: complete fucking moron, and he gave Huck and a few 738 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: guys that hit and he botched the whole thing. He 739 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 1: didn't send the right guys, Sammy the Bull Gravano. If 740 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself, Tell 741 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: a friend and follow here's the thing on the I 742 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 743 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: When we come back, Sammy the bull shares why he 744 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: was the hitman the bosses relied on. I'm Alec Baldwin, 745 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. Much of the Mafia 746 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 1: on screen involves clandestine meetings over linguini and red wine. 747 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to know if, just like Tony Soprano, Sammy 748 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: frequented an Italian restaurant that felt like home. Well in Manhattan, 749 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,359 Speaker 1: Mulberry Street. I believe it's and Lows. That was great. 750 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: It was right on Mulberry Street. It was a great restaurant, 751 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: great food, great service. And me I stayed mostly in Brooklyn, 752 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: Benson Earth. I stayed in restaurants in places that really 753 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: weren't all that fancy, but I went to them before 754 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: I was anything, and I kind of stayed there even 755 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: though my rank or position, whatever you wanna call it, increased. 756 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: But you'd like to eat, Oh, I love to eat. 757 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: You know what Italian is? Everything is breaking bread, we talk, 758 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: we eat, I mean in my house with my father, 759 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: and you'd be at the table for an hour and 760 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: a half. Not only would you eat the first meal 761 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,839 Speaker 1: deandi boss the past that it is that that when 762 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: you were done, you're drinking a little wine you're breaking 763 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: the walnuts or you know, with the and you're eating 764 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: nuts fruit stuff like that, and you conversed. It was 765 00:44:54,760 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: a tie family tie, united the family and keeping it together, 766 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, and keeping it close. The kids would go 767 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: off and run off and go play in the backyard. 768 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: So it was not only a mafia thing. It was 769 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: an Italian thing basically. It was part of our roots. 770 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: On a tougher subject. The first time you killed somebody 771 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 1: and every time thereafter, was it always the same feeling 772 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 1: or was there a time when you know, because a 773 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of it was that someone's direction. They were being 774 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: ordered to do this. You were given a hit, you 775 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: were given a job. Did you have to medicate yourself 776 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: to get yourself in that state to do that job? 777 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: Were you always in the natural state? Did you have 778 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: to take a pill and take a couple of shots 779 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: before you could do that? First of all, a hit 780 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 1: to me was always in order. I never did a hit, 781 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: what really without an order that you improvised, So it 782 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: always came from the top. You're not allowed to do 783 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: it without you know, permission anyway. But after the first 784 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: hit and I was into it, I became a very 785 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,439 Speaker 1: good hit guy. One of the reasons is is that 786 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: I was able to think. I was a thinker. I 787 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: plan and plot head, I focus it. I'm gonna use 788 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: the word you. I'm not talking about you, but I 789 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: would focus in on you, on everything you did, every 790 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: place you went, and I would disregard my family, my friends, 791 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,439 Speaker 1: my business, money, nothing meant nothing to me other than 792 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: you and where I was going to kill you. I 793 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,439 Speaker 1: became very, very efficient at it, and that's how I 794 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: was used by bosses so many different times, because they 795 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,320 Speaker 1: knew that if I got your contract, you were finished. 796 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,399 Speaker 1: I never took drugs. The only thing I did as 797 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: a kid when I smoked pot, But I never really 798 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: took drugs. I never really drank. I didn't need any 799 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: of that, and I thought that would be the worst 800 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,240 Speaker 1: thing you could do, because that'll suck up how you think, 801 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: and that's when you're gonna make a mistake. The podcast 802 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: with Jim Carroll, whose idea was that, you know when 803 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: I when I got out of prison, I was going 804 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: to write a second book. James Carroll came to me 805 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: he was gonna do a documentary about me, and he 806 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: had turned around and said, oh wow, I'd love to 807 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: work with you with uh this podcast. So I said, 808 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: all right, and I said, how you to How would 809 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: you think it will? He says, I heard you know 810 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: you talk, if you could talk like that and on 811 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: the podcast, he said, you'll get twenty five million hits. 812 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: I started laughing. I had just got out of prison, 813 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: not till long ago. I said, I know I could 814 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: get ten people for sure, my ex wife, my son, 815 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: my daughter. I am not gonna get twenty five million people. 816 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: I think as of today we got eighty five million views. So, uh, 817 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 1: he was right. You know, you're you're you're you're a 818 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: very complicated guy. You know what one minute you taking 819 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: an omerta, an oath of silence. Now you got eight 820 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 1: five million people listening to you on a podcast. You 821 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,359 Speaker 1: know what I mean? If Sammy Gravano then could see 822 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: Sammy Gravano now you'll be sitting there going what the 823 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,479 Speaker 1: fuck is this? Andson? Thank you very much? I thank 824 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:30,280 Speaker 1: your still my Thanks to Sammy Gravano and James Carroll. 825 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,879 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at c DM Studios in New 826 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and 827 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media 828 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. 829 00:48:48,320 --> 00:49:01,000 Speaker 1: Is brought to you by my Heart Radio. The name 830 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: Chool