1
00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 1: Hello everyone. This is Seth the audio producer for Stuff

2
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. And there's just a quick note

3
00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,399
Speaker 1: before we start. Myself, Robert, and Joe. We are still

4
00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: recording in isolation because it is the summer of and well,

5
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 1: this episode, we had a bit of a problem with

6
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,560
Speaker 1: Robert's microphone. It was a one time thing. It shouldn't

7
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 1: happen again in the future, but for this episode, it's

8
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,000
Speaker 1: going to sound a little bit like Joe is kind

9
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,960
Speaker 1: of talking to a tv VCR combo and like a

10
00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,519
Speaker 1: bunker somewhere. But well, I guess that's technically kind of

11
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 1: what we're actually doing. But anyway, anyway, point is this

12
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 1: is a one time incident. Uh, it's all still very understandable,

13
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 1: very easy to listen to in this episode of cleaned

14
00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,960
Speaker 1: it up as best I can, and next time it'll

15
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 1: sound just like normal, we promise. Thanks, enjoy the show.

16
00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind Production. If I

17
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: heart radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

18
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. In

19
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 1: Today we're gonna be talking about mostly focusing on a

20
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,680
Speaker 1: classic psychology paper about an effect in uh in the

21
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,280
Speaker 1: kind of social cognitive bias known as the spotlight effect.

22
00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,839
Speaker 1: But to get into this subject, I wanted to start

23
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,959
Speaker 1: off by thinking about something that a lot of people

24
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 1: have found themselves doing in the past few months. Of

25
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,920
Speaker 1: people who maybe this wasn't part of your job very

26
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: much recently, but now you spend a significant portion of

27
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:45,120
Speaker 1: your day in web video meetings, staring at little boxes

28
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 1: of your co workers faces on a computer screen, or

29
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,080
Speaker 1: maybe just staring at your own face a lot. Yes, uh,

30
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, right now is Joe and I

31
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: are recording this. We are using a Zoom call. We

32
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 1: are using a Zoom conference to communicate with each other,

33
00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 1: and then we're using some other programs and what not

34
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 1: to to actually record it. But yeah, a lot of

35
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 1: people haven't. You may be using something different. You might

36
00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,359
Speaker 1: be using what there's like Google meet, Microsoft meeting, like

37
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 1: Facebook flop. I mean they're like a million of them, right,

38
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,800
Speaker 1: I mean this is an optagram. Yeah, it's a growth

39
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 1: industry figuring out and it makes sense. Right. We need

40
00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,080
Speaker 1: to still be able to connect with each other, We

41
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,240
Speaker 1: still need to have meaningful meetings and all of those

42
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: less meaningful meetings, and in order to keep the gears

43
00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,240
Speaker 1: of business grinding away. Right. Yeah. And one of the

44
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,640
Speaker 1: strange things I've noticed, and I've read other people noticing

45
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 1: the exact same thing, is that you might expect that

46
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 1: being able to do a meeting from your home over

47
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,079
Speaker 1: the internet would be maybe less exhausting than a meeting

48
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,680
Speaker 1: in person, But somehow I have not found it to

49
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,079
Speaker 1: be the case. I found that, like, video chats can

50
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 1: be just intensely draining, like after where they're over, you

51
00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,840
Speaker 1: feel like you've been lifting weights or something. Uh. And

52
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 1: part of what's going on here I found very much

53
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,600
Speaker 1: embodied in the spirit of an article that I saw

54
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 1: link to. It's it's just a Medium post. And I

55
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,800
Speaker 1: want to be very clear that I'm not passing judgment

56
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: on the author here, that nothing wrong with with this person,

57
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 1: but the title of it just gave me chills. And

58
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,160
Speaker 1: the title of this medium post was how to fake

59
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:30,720
Speaker 1: eye contact during video chats and why it's important. Yes, uh,

60
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: this this was this is interesting. This was what a

61
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: medium article by Alexa Curtis, And they made three key

62
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 1: suggestions here. The first one is to use a webcam

63
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: even if no one else is okay. The second is

64
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: trick yourself into looking at the camera instead of at

65
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 1: the screen impossible, and then tape your prompts, your notes

66
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 1: whatever to your monitor as much as possible instead of

67
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,160
Speaker 1: having to refer to like a notepad something. Yeah, the

68
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: suggestion is like, make a little fake face to go

69
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 1: around the webcam box so that you're looking into the

70
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 1: camera instead of at the screen. But I just don't

71
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,200
Speaker 1: think it's like if your face is played back on

72
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 1: the screen unless you are able to turn your face

73
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 1: off for yourself. You just you're not going to be

74
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,200
Speaker 1: able to help it, are you. Yeah. I actually, before

75
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,720
Speaker 1: I read this, I kind of thought because I'd catch

76
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 1: myself doing this. Um. Now, now I should say that

77
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: I am lucky and that I do not have to

78
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,119
Speaker 1: set through just hours and hours of meetings today and zoom.

79
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,840
Speaker 1: I have friends who are definitely stuck in that boat,

80
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,839
Speaker 1: and they seem exhausted by it. We use zoom in

81
00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 1: these recordings, but for the most part, we're not actually

82
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,040
Speaker 1: engaging in the video part of it. We we have

83
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 1: other stuff, we have notes, stuff that we're looking at

84
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 1: when we're recording. But I have found this to be

85
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 1: the case with my my Dungeons and Dragons group, which

86
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,960
Speaker 1: used to meet in person, but now it's forced to

87
00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,480
Speaker 1: meet via zoom and we have this, you know, and

88
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 1: it's like a two or three hour zoom called you know,

89
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,160
Speaker 1: like a three hour zoom called it would do once

90
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 1: a week to do Dengon and Dragons. And for some reason,

91
00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 1: I've been noticing that I've just I felt kind of

92
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,719
Speaker 1: worn out by it towards the end of of the night,

93
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,240
Speaker 1: um in ways that I wasn't worn out previously meeting

94
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,359
Speaker 1: in person, Like I just kind of felt zapped by it,

95
00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 1: like if if we were battling something at the end,

96
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of going through the motions. I'm just

97
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,360
Speaker 1: not feeling it anymore at that point. Yeah, exact same experience.

98
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 1: I've done social stuff via video calls. I've also been

99
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,039
Speaker 1: doing a D and D campaign, my my first ever

100
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 1: by the way, thank you over over zoom, and it's

101
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 1: been a lot of fun. But yes, it is. It

102
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 1: is kind of exhausting to just participate in the in

103
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 1: the eyeball Tennis of of the different video faces on

104
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,360
Speaker 1: the screen. Something about it hooks its claws into your

105
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: brain and just pulls and stretches and kind of needs

106
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,679
Speaker 1: your brain like a ball of dough. Yeah, now, fortunately,

107
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,119
Speaker 1: I don't know how your campaign is going, but with ours,

108
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: were also using a couple other resources. We're using a

109
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,200
Speaker 1: discord forum, and we're using role twenty to pull up

110
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: maps and such. So maybe maybe we should upgrade our

111
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,359
Speaker 1: technology we're looking into. But but basically we have some

112
00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,080
Speaker 1: other things to captivate our eyes during this this process.

113
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 1: I guess one of the things about a straight up

114
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 1: like business zoom meeting is a lot of times you're

115
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 1: just stuck in those Brady bunch um cubes, right, You're

116
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,400
Speaker 1: just you're just stuck with all these little screen pictures

117
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 1: of people and uh and some sometimes you have it

118
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,279
Speaker 1: set to where one will take dominance over the others,

119
00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:37,599
Speaker 1: but you may just be looking at a wall of

120
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 1: people's faces, and then you're thinking about again this point

121
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 1: of should I be making eye contact with everybody? Should

122
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 1: I be focusing on trying to be the most presentable,

123
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: you know, the most professional looking, Like when they look

124
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,560
Speaker 1: at my little box, it's like watching a TV broadcast

125
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,680
Speaker 1: and I'm making direct eye contact with them. Maybe, but

126
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,240
Speaker 1: because I have a little sticky smiley face that I've

127
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: put out at the top of my computer by the camera.

128
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 1: There are multiple ways in which this type of interaction

129
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,719
Speaker 1: is not normal. I mean, of course, it's not normal

130
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 1: to be interfacing through technology at all. Of course, it's

131
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,440
Speaker 1: kind of strange that you're not looking at the person

132
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: but you're looking at the screen, so the eye contact

133
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 1: is off. I understand that that point in the article.

134
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,360
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it is not normal to

135
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 1: be able to see yourself while you're talking to people.

136
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 1: I can imagine if you know you were always talking

137
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,200
Speaker 1: to people with a mirror in your hand that was

138
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,360
Speaker 1: reflecting your face. Yeah, people would rightfully think you were insane.

139
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,240
Speaker 1: That was how like self obsessed you were that you

140
00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 1: go or I don't know, or afraid of Gordon's that

141
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 1: you always had to have a mirror in your hand.

142
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: And yet that's the reality we find ourselves there. And

143
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 1: I know this is this is not just like our

144
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,400
Speaker 1: particular reaction to this. This is something that that I've

145
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 1: read about in multiple popular articles and also not just

146
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 1: an obscure scientific articles. Like there was an article I

147
00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 1: came across in I think of his Business Insider that

148
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 1: is called like why you can't stop steering at yourself

149
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,440
Speaker 1: in zoom calls. Yes, this was by Shia Fetter. Titled

150
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 1: a cyber Psychologist explains why you can't stop steering yourself

151
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 1: on zoom calls and everyone else is probably doing the same, um,

152
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 1: which I I have caught myself doing this sometimes during

153
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,800
Speaker 1: Dunus and dragons, sometimes during work calls, where you know

154
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: you want to check in, you want to see how

155
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: you were presenting to the rest of the world. But

156
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 1: then it's often easy to sort of, you know, to

157
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,680
Speaker 1: to to. You're looking at these wall of faces, and

158
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 1: then you decide to maximize your own, and you're like,

159
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: all right, let's see, how's the light hitting me, what's

160
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 1: my hair doing right now? How presented my smiling weird?

161
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 1: Like smiling weird? Do I look do I look engaged?

162
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 1: Or do I look as bored as I feel? You know? Um?

163
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,840
Speaker 1: And so that's what this article gets into a little

164
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,360
Speaker 1: of that year. So um. The article discusses some key

165
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 1: points made by cyber psychologist Andrew Franklin. So the first

166
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,079
Speaker 1: one is that in general, adolescents tend to suffer for

167
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,160
Speaker 1: from the imaginary audience delusion, the idea that people in

168
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 1: the surroundings are really paying attention to every move they make,

169
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,360
Speaker 1: and this often follows us into adulthood as well. Yeah,

170
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,240
Speaker 1: and this I think is pretty close to or perhaps

171
00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,760
Speaker 1: even just another name for the main issue we're going

172
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,199
Speaker 1: to be focusing on today and otherwise known as the

173
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:24,319
Speaker 1: spotlight effect. Now, one thing about this, this point about adolescents.

174
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this is of course terrifying to think about,

175
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,760
Speaker 1: given the nature of social media, which is pretty much

176
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 1: predicated on this sort of celebrity aspiring notion of a

177
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 1: constant audience and uh and in one tends to drift

178
00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 1: to extremes and reaction to that, right, this feeling that

179
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,839
Speaker 1: every word I put on the Internet, or every video,

180
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 1: every whatever is vitally important and will be viewed by

181
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,080
Speaker 1: potentially everyone in the world. Yes, you're not just constantly

182
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,680
Speaker 1: on view you are constantly being reviewed, is the perception. Yeah,

183
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: I know, obviously that's it's gonna from person person and

184
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,400
Speaker 1: there some people are gonna use social media in a

185
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,439
Speaker 1: way that hasn't far more limited scope only close friends

186
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 1: or maybe even family, maybe just one person can see

187
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: you know. But but but yeah, it does make me

188
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,280
Speaker 1: wonder and this would have to be a you know,

189
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,440
Speaker 1: a discussion for another time, like just what what what

190
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 1: is happening when this um spotlight effect, This imaginary audience

191
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:28,280
Speaker 1: delusion is playing uh into our use of social media. Yeah,

192
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,320
Speaker 1: but also so this psychology professor Andrew Franklin also makes

193
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 1: the point that like it's not just an illusion that

194
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 1: like video chats are actually exhausting. Yeah, Yeah, to make

195
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,000
Speaker 1: the point that video chats are more stressful than in

196
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 1: person meetings, and a big part of that is just

197
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: everything is more distracted, more fragmented, and we have muted

198
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 1: or severely lessened nonverbal communicative skills. So you think of

199
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,599
Speaker 1: a lot of this is kind of an overstatement of

200
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: the obvious, but you can do far less with your

201
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: body language, not only your overt body language like talking

202
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 1: with your hands and waving down people the other side

203
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 1: of the table, but in terms of just having a

204
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,839
Speaker 1: bodily awareness of what everyone is doing and how they

205
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 1: are sort of reacting to what's going on, and if

206
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 1: someone else is about to speak or needs to speak. Yes,

207
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,080
Speaker 1: And it's actually hard to tell who's looking at who,

208
00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,599
Speaker 1: Like you can assume if there are a bunch of

209
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,240
Speaker 1: Brady bunch boxes that people are probably looking if they're

210
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,679
Speaker 1: not looking at themselves, they're probably looking at the person

211
00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 1: who's currently talking. But maybe not. You can't tell. Yeah,

212
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,720
Speaker 1: And and it's also weird to think, like, I guess

213
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,840
Speaker 1: maybe some of you out there had more of like

214
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,680
Speaker 1: a you know, rules of order kind of a upbringing

215
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 1: or or you know, you had some more training and Okay,

216
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,440
Speaker 1: this is how, this is how a business meeting goes,

217
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,080
Speaker 1: this is how a work meeting operates. But I feel

218
00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 1: for my part, a lot of it's just kind of

219
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:50,960
Speaker 1: you just learn it. You go just sort of figure

220
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 1: out what is the culture of this group and this meeting,

221
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,520
Speaker 1: and and how am I supposed to fit in? And

222
00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,559
Speaker 1: then to a certain extent, it feels like we've had

223
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,760
Speaker 1: to relearn all of that or augment our understanding of

224
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 1: that based on the limitations of the technology. Yeah. I

225
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 1: think that's totally right, And and I would I would

226
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,440
Speaker 1: emphasize yet again that not all digital socialization skills are

227
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,040
Speaker 1: are interchangeable or transferable to one another. So you might

228
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,559
Speaker 1: have been well acclimatized to the social skills one needs

229
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,319
Speaker 1: in order to interact through a different type of mediated

230
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,800
Speaker 1: social media like like Facebook or Twitter or something like that,

231
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: and still not really have any skills for how to

232
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 1: interact via a video chat. It's just like a different

233
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 1: set of skills, a different set of things to get

234
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 1: used to. Yeah, it's a different talking stick entirely now now.

235
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,679
Speaker 1: Franklin also drives something that given the strain of keeping

236
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 1: up with everyone's tiny boxes and concern over how you

237
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 1: yourself look in your box, you might easily find yourself

238
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 1: just looking at yourself, staring into the digital mirror and

239
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,040
Speaker 1: fixating on how you appear to friends, co workers, and

240
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,319
Speaker 1: bosses and and Franklin maintains that this means you're likely overwhelmed.

241
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 1: I perceive games which which I totally get. Again, even

242
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,240
Speaker 1: with the low stakes confines of dungeons and dragons. You know,

243
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 1: nothing huge is on the line here. But by the

244
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,040
Speaker 1: end of the of the session again, I often find

245
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,679
Speaker 1: myself kind of zapped in ways that I never felt

246
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 1: before within person gaming. And even though we're staring into

247
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 1: that digital reflection of our own face, Franklin stresses that

248
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: people are ultimately not fixating on you like you think

249
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,160
Speaker 1: they are. They are not setting there watching you and

250
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, dissecting everything about your appearance and in your

251
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,680
Speaker 1: background and what your face is doing in any any

252
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,160
Speaker 1: given sect. Yeah, No, they're probably much more likely fixating

253
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,439
Speaker 1: on themselves the same way you are fixating on yourself.

254
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 1: Um uh. And so this brings us back to the

255
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,640
Speaker 1: cognitive bias that we're gonna be focusing on in today's episode,

256
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,800
Speaker 1: also known as the spotlight effect. And this effect is

257
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,679
Speaker 1: very interesting because, on one hand, I think it's one

258
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: of the simplest psychological phenomena we've ever talked about on

259
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,959
Speaker 1: the show. It's actually very simple to observe. It's very

260
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 1: straightforward in a way. But it's one of those things

261
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 1: where if you really internalize it, it's implications could be

262
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,959
Speaker 1: kind of life changing. Yeah, it's one of these things

263
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't I wouldn't say that it really like changes

264
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 1: in the nature of your reality, but it brings certain

265
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 1: aspects of it into maybe sharper focus. You might realize, Oh, well, okay,

266
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 1: that explains some of the things I feel when I

267
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,000
Speaker 1: am in a meeting or you know, just walking around

268
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 1: u uh, you know, in a public space, or or

269
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,560
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. Um, I do feel like

270
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 1: it does it does? It does feel like a revelation

271
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,400
Speaker 1: of it in its own way. Yeah. So the main

272
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 1: paper that I wanted to focus on today was published

273
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,239
Speaker 1: in the year two thousand in the Journal of Personality

274
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: and Social Psychology by Thomas Gilovich of Victoria who Staid

275
00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 1: Medvec and Kenneth Savitsky, and it's called the spot effect

276
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: in Social Judgment and ecocentric bias and Estimates of the

277
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,240
Speaker 1: salience of one zone actions and appearance. You can pretty

278
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 1: easily find a full PDF of this online if you

279
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,760
Speaker 1: want to read it. And this is a highly cited paper.

280
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,960
Speaker 1: It has been referred to many many times in the

281
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 1: years since as a kind of seminal work on this

282
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,680
Speaker 1: on this social cognitive bias. So the authors begin with

283
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: some anecdotal observations, and these observations are that for both

284
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: good and ill, it often seems like stuff you expect

285
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 1: other people to notice and recall about you really goes unnoticed. Uh.

286
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,160
Speaker 1: And also on the good side, that might be like

287
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 1: something smart that you said in a discussion group. You're

288
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,400
Speaker 1: like really pleased with yourself that like, oh, I had

289
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,000
Speaker 1: that really good insight or I made that really funny joke,

290
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,040
Speaker 1: and then it turns out later that nobody else seems

291
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,360
Speaker 1: to recall that you said anything. Or perhaps this often

292
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 1: actually happens in athletic contexts where people will make a

293
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: really good shot in a basketball game or something, and

294
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 1: they will expect people to remember that they did that.

295
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,720
Speaker 1: But then maybe it turns out that nobody really noticed.

296
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 1: It just kind of was one of the goals in

297
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 1: a game in which many goals were scored. And as

298
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 1: frustrating as this can be, it can also kind of

299
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: be a relief that it works the other way to

300
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 1: People often don't seem to have noticed when you make

301
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 1: what feels like a really obvious mistake faux paw on

302
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 1: a first meeting, or when you misspeak and what feels

303
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,880
Speaker 1: like an embarrassing way, or that time you had spinach

304
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,240
Speaker 1: in your teeth, like you obsess over that and you're

305
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 1: afraid it's going to completely ruin your reputation, that everybody's

306
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 1: gonna remember you for that thing forever. But a lot

307
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 1: of times it seems like maybe nobody even noticed. Yeah,

308
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 1: the dual nature of this particular revelation, I think ultimately

309
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 1: it is positive because yeah, and maybe it means you're

310
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 1: not as important as you thought you're. Maybe you're not

311
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's explosive personality as you thought

312
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 1: you were. But on the other hand, uh, you know,

313
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 1: maybe the stakes are a little bit lower every time

314
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 1: you hope in your mouth. Yeah. Yeah, that's the hypothesis

315
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,639
Speaker 1: at the heart of this paper, that these anecdotal observations

316
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 1: are indicative of a real trend that can be measured

317
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 1: that in general, humans have an egocentric bias that causes

318
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,480
Speaker 1: us to believe that our actions and our appearance are

319
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 1: much more salient and notable to other people than they

320
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,359
Speaker 1: really are. Quote. People tend to believe that more people

321
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 1: take a note of their actions and appearance than is

322
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 1: actually the case. We dubbed this putative phenomenon the spotlight effect.

323
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,840
Speaker 1: People tend to believe that the social spotlight shines more

324
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: brightly on them than it really does. Yeah, this is

325
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,080
Speaker 1: insightful and I think we can all match this up

326
00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 1: pretty easily, first of all with our own experiences, but

327
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 1: also with some of the ideas that we've discussed on

328
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 1: the show before. Uh specifically, first of all, there's the

329
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 1: self narrative aspect of our inner thoughts, you know, through

330
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 1: the inner workings of consciousness, were constantly weaving together a

331
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,440
Speaker 1: store about who we are and how we fit into

332
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 1: the world. It's a little movie, and we're the main character,

333
00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,640
Speaker 1: so of course we're the most important person in that story. Right,

334
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 1: you're trying to link together a series of what are

335
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,120
Speaker 1: in fact sort of random events into a cohesive narrative

336
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,919
Speaker 1: with the logic to it. Right. And then through theory

337
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 1: of mind, we're constantly running simulations about the mental states

338
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 1: of other people, specific people, people in general, known people,

339
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 1: unknown people, sort of hypothetical people, uh and uh. And

340
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: of course one of the key aspects of any of

341
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 1: these simulations is, you know, how do they relate to me,

342
00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 1: how do they think about me? What are their intentions

343
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 1: towards me? And that makes sense, right, There's an inherently

344
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 1: self centered quality to this sort of thinking, because it

345
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: all comes down to individual survival. We tend to air

346
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,640
Speaker 1: on the side of seeing tigers in the grass when

347
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,200
Speaker 1: there are none, which is better of the two possible

348
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 1: gambles here, But it also means going through life perpetually

349
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,680
Speaker 1: imagining how the tiger sees you. Yeah, and so this

350
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 1: is in some ways the exact social equivalent of the

351
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,439
Speaker 1: agency detection overdrive, where you, you know, over interpret a

352
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: crack of a twig as a tiger in the grass. Here,

353
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 1: you over interpret any little thing that that you think

354
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 1: maybe going wrong in a social interaction as something that

355
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 1: people will notice and remember and judge you for. So

356
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 1: maybe we should take a quick break and then when

357
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: we come back we can get a little bit further

358
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: into this study. Thank alright, we're back. Okay. So we're

359
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 1: talking about the study from the year two thousand by

360
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 1: Gilovich and co authors who are putting forth this this

361
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,879
Speaker 1: putative phenomenon that at the time they called the spotlight effect,

362
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 1: the idea that we overestimate the salience of our appearance

363
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 1: and our behavior to other people. And the authors here

364
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,639
Speaker 1: note several lines of previous research that helped point to

365
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,640
Speaker 1: this conclusion. One of them is, first of all, this

366
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: may not be surprising at all, but people do tend

367
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 1: to have egocentric biases that you can measure quite easily

368
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: in in in tests. These are biases that overstate the

369
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 1: importance of the self. Just one example the site is

370
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 1: a paper by Ross and Sickly published in nineteen seventy

371
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 1: nine called ego centric Biases and Availability and Attribution, and

372
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: it showed it showed this in the realm of what's

373
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 1: called responsibility allocation, Who did, how much and how important

374
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 1: was what they did? So there are several different ways

375
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 1: you can test for this. Uh maybe in discussion groups,

376
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 1: maybe in household chores, maybe in basketball teams. Uh quote

377
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,120
Speaker 1: one zone, contributions to a joint product are more readily available.

378
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 1: That is, more frequently and easily recalled. Individuals accepted more

379
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 1: responsibility for a group product than other participants attributed to them.

380
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 1: So the easy way of thinking about this is, oh,

381
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 1: our team one, because I scored that goal. Yeah. I

382
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 1: found this particularly telling. The authors now that that research

383
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: indicates that when individuals undertake complex social interactions, they alternate

384
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 1: between the roles of speaker or actor and listener or observer,

385
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: but much of their attention is ultimately going to be

386
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 1: directed in many cases at planning and executing their own responses.

387
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: And I think we can relate to this. Uh. You

388
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: know when when those times when you haven't quite zoned

389
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 1: out on a meeting, like you're not just or or

390
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 1: a conversation and you're not just you know, out here

391
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 1: thinking about Star Wars in the back of your head. No,

392
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: you're focusing instead on the thing that you're getting ready

393
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: to say, your interjection into the conversation, the joke that

394
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,479
Speaker 1: you are intending to make when you get the talking

395
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: stick um, and uh, you know, because ultimately that's often

396
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 1: a part of any kind of like three way or

397
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 1: or or larger conversation is when when is it going

398
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: to be my turn? And how am I going to

399
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 1: make the most out of my my time speaking. I

400
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: believe there's actually a name for this exact defect. It's

401
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: a different thing that's been stun I mean, obviously it's

402
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: very related to the stuff we're talking about, but I

403
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: think it's called the next in line effect, where you

404
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: can measure that people have less recall of if you

405
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: if you like, sit people in a circle and go

406
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: around the circle asking them to speak, people have less

407
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 1: recall of the person who spoke right before them than

408
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: they do of everybody else, because you know, when the

409
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: person right before you was talking, you're planning what you're

410
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: gonna say. And and it means that when one thinks

411
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: back on a meeting, so you're in this meeting, you

412
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: have this period of time where you're you're applying most

413
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: of your cognitive efforts towards preparing for your own words,

414
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: and then when you think back on it, you're more

415
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: likely to remember the thing that you were focused on

416
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 1: at the time. You know your own words, your own contribution, um,

417
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: because that's where that's where you were spending the mental resources.

418
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: The exception to this, however, would be if one's could

419
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,479
Speaker 1: contribution required a little effort, like instead of plotting to

420
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: interject something that will make everyone laugh or pursuing some

421
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: specific strategic aim in the meeting, what if it was

422
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: just the part of the meeting where every week your

423
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: boss says, hey, Roy, what are the numbers? Just read

424
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: us the numbers real quick, and then you read the

425
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: numbers something that's you know, quick and normal like that. Now,

426
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: the exception of this they mentioned would be passive observers,

427
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: people who are in the meeting but are not planning

428
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: to have the talking stick at any point, don't have

429
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: any kind of active role in the meeting, or if

430
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: they do, maybe it is just reading off the stats

431
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 1: and they don't have a larger role to play, so

432
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: they might well focus more on other people in the meeting.

433
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: They are they are going to be the ones that

434
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: are going to be more likely to notice what you

435
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: say or do. That that totally makes sense to me, Um,

436
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: I think I have much better recall of meetings where

437
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,239
Speaker 1: I am not expected to speak. That being said, and

438
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: this is this is me, not the authors here, But

439
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: I suspect that the passive observers are also far more

440
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: likely to be thinking about star wars or what they're

441
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 1: they needed by a grocery school later the supernatural biker movies. Yeah,

442
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: or here's a big one. We didn't even get into this,

443
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: but via the zoom call, uh it one has a

444
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: tremendous ability to just simply go to other websites during

445
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: the call and still look basically attentive, right, because you'd

446
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: just be looking at the screen either way. Yeah, there's

447
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: your excuse, folks, Digital hookie. Has anybody tried just putting

448
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: up like a face like I know you can insertain

449
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: backgrounds on these video calls, putting up a background that

450
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: has a photo of them in it so it looks

451
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: like they're sitting there. I bet somebody has somebody out

452
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: there has got a little bit forward and figured out

453
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: a way to make it happen. It would be It

454
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: would be kind of the equivalent of I didn't Helmer

455
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: Simpson have some glasses at one point that made him

456
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: look like he was awake? Yes, it's when he's in

457
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: he's on a jury and he's expected to be paying attention,

458
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: but he is sleeping, right, that's right, I remember that

459
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: wide awake glasses and one of the other jurors narcs

460
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: on him. But yeah, so so anyway, the effect here,

461
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: I think is pretty straightforward. If an action stands out

462
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: in your own mind for whatever reason, you're going to

463
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: end up thinking it was more important in some objective

464
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: sense than it actually was. And so, in other words,

465
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: if people overestimate the relevance of their own actions in

466
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: an objective sense, wouldn't they also overestimate how relevant their

467
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: actions are subjectively to other people? Yeah? Yeah. The authors

468
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: also point out in many cases it might not matter

469
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: it maybe quote overlook when joint endeavors do not require

470
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: explicit allocations of responsibility. But obviously sometimes this is not

471
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: the case. Yeah. It particularly makes me think of a

472
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: frequent trope you see in films, the villainous meetings, when

473
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: you have villains around a table generally having a meeting,

474
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: having this sort of you know, dark, more antagonistic version

475
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: of our regular real life business meetings. Uh, the meetings

476
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: of Specter. The early James Bond Yes or Blowfeld would

477
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: have the have the command consoled like electrocute somebody's chair, yeah,

478
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: or another favorite of mine, or the meetings you see

479
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: the Imperial meetings in like Star Wars and New Hope,

480
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: or we're also in Rogue one. We we have the

481
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: likes of Darth Vader and Grand Moth Tarken or or

482
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: Orson Critic. You know, they're they're they're all objectively, they're

483
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: they're all talking about, okay, we need to get the

484
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: Death Star up and running. But these are all highly

485
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: egotistical and self focused individuals, and they all seen each

486
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: pretty focused on their own key role in everything, and

487
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: they're certainly not about like elevating the project itself above

488
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: personal ambition. Yeah. Yeah, they're clearly like trying to stick

489
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: up for their own branch. It's like, you know, dangerous

490
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: to your starfleet command or not to my battle station. Yeah, okay.

491
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: A few more previously observed. A psychological phenomenon that the

492
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: authors call attention to is is potentially backing up the

493
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: idea of a spotlight effect. Another one is what's known

494
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: as naive realism. The right quote. Naive realism refers to

495
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: the common tendency to assume that one's perception of an

496
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: object or event is an accurate reflection of its objective properties,

497
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: not a subjective interpretation or construle. In other words, look,

498
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: it happened just like I saw it. It's the tendency

499
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: to believe that your perception is unbiased and accurate, even

500
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: though you might readily attribute, you know, mistakes and biases

501
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: to other people's perceptions. Yeah, and this is all tied

502
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: up in the philosophy of perception. Um. So when we're

503
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: talking about naive realism also known as direct realism, that

504
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: stands in opposition to indirect or representational realism. So direct

505
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: or naive realism holds that we perceive things in the

506
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: world directly and without the then the mediation of any impression, idea,

507
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: or representation. And I think we can generally agree, especially

508
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: on this show, that this is not the true nature

509
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: of how a human process is reality. Know, the things

510
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: you see are are based on the external world, but

511
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: it's not an unbiased direct representation of the external world, right,

512
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: Like there's there's a weight to things, you know. It's

513
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: like if you know, if yesterday somebody slapped me with

514
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: the fish, today I see a fish and and like

515
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: that the nature of my perception is going to be

516
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: augmented by that previous experience. Now, indirect realism adheres to

517
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: the idea that material objects do have mind independent existence,

518
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: but but not that our visual perception is unmediated or

519
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: that these objects necessarily possess all of the features that

520
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: we perceived them to have. Like a quick example of

521
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 1: that would be, obviously, we look at our beloved pets,

522
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: and we may, you know, we may perceive them to

523
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: have various nuances that they simply do not have, and

524
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, as pet owners, were generally okay with that. Yeah,

525
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. And I think indirect realism,

526
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, to me, that is the model of

527
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: the world that makes the most sense. Like I would

528
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: not say I'm an idealist, I believe the external world

529
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. I don't go for that. But obviously, our

530
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: our ideas about what is motivating our dog or something

531
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: might be more us than actually coming from the dog. Yeah. Now,

532
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: of course, there's also phenomenalism, which generally rejects the mind

533
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: independent existence of material logics, but accepts un mediated visual

534
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: perception and the possession of of perceived features. So other

535
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: things are not things as much as they are bundles

536
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: of sense data, which is a weird way to to

537
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: behold your path. After Yeah, let's getting almost into kind

538
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: of George Berkeley and kind of territory that that I

539
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: don't think I can fully go for, but that it

540
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: ultimately doesn't really play into what we're talking about here. Again,

541
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about direct realism or our naive realism versus

542
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: indirect or representational realism. Right, And I think we do

543
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: have a tendency to really underappreciate how much our perceptions

544
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: are affected by the kinds of mistakes and distortions that

545
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: we readily attribute to other people. And so the authors

546
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: of the two thousand paper, right, that quote applied to

547
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: the spotlight effect. This implies that it might be easy

548
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: to confuse how salient something is to oneself with how

549
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: salient it is to others, precisely because our own behavior

550
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: stands out in our own minds, it can be hard

551
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: to discern how well or even whether it is picked

552
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: up by others. Absolutely, we may be attending the same

553
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: meeting or Zoom conference call, but we are not all

554
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: attending the same meeting or Zoom conference call, you know

555
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: what I mean. We we all have different perceptions of

556
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: it based on our own biases, our own histories, our

557
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: own pervasive thoughts or you know, cognitive model of the

558
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: task at hand and our role in it. I mean,

559
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: our our subjective understanding of the meeting is going to

560
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: different person to person exactly. So leading into the next

561
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: thing here that the authors point out is as possibly

562
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: pointing to a spotlight effect. This is something that has

563
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: been documented known as this self as target bias. Quick example,

564
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: so you're in a classroom, the teacher gives a pop

565
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: quiz about last night's reading, and Johnny interprets this quiz

566
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: as an attack on him personally because he believes that

567
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: the teacher must believe that he didn't do the reading.

568
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: And you know, I think even the best of us

569
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: sometimes we fall prey to thinking like this something that

570
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: is a a general sort of action applied to everyone.

571
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: We think, why are they doing this to me? Yeah? Yeah,

572
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: especially if you have a light up, like a build up,

573
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: build up of anticipation about a given you know, meeting

574
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: or or social scenario. Yeah. And so the author's right

575
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: quote like naive realism, then the self is target bias

576
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 1: reflects a confusion between what is available to oneself and

577
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: what is likely to be available to and hence guide

578
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: the actions of others. So again, Johnny might think, well,

579
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: the teacher knows I didn't do the reading, and that's

580
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: why she's giving the test today, or she's giving the

581
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: pop quiz today. But the teacher doesn't know that. It's

582
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: just you know, that's what he knows. And then finally,

583
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: the author's point out that these previously documented eco centric

584
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: biases are very similar to the kind of egocentrism that

585
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: Jean Pierge observed pervading the cognition of young children early

586
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: in their development. One of the more important parts of

587
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: growing up, in fact, is shedding some of that ecocentrism.

588
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: But it turns out we don't shed it all. It

589
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: still appears in adults, simply in diminished form. It's certainly

590
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: more diminished in some people than it is in us. Yeah,

591
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: but yeah, so it's young children. I mean, people with

592
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: with kids will probably recognize this, often seem not to

593
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: grasp that other people have a different perspective than they do.

594
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: This happens when you're very young, and gradually, as you

595
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: get older, you get more, you get more consistent about

596
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: being able to accurately sort of model the minds of

597
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: others understand that they have different desires, different perspectives than

598
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: you do. And adults, of course by the time of adulthood,

599
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: usually recognize this gap rationally, but still might have a

600
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: hard time sort of calibrateing to predict it accurately. Now,

601
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: the authors of this paper here say that what is

602
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: the method that that we use to calibrate this this prediction.

603
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: They say that it's probably based on anchoring and adjustment. Now,

604
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: I was reading some follow up work by Gilovich about

605
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: the the anchoring and adjustment controversy. Very brief refresher on anchoring.

606
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: We've done an episode about this in the past. So,

607
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: like when you're trying to come up with an answer

608
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: to a question like how much is this car worth?

609
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: Or what do people think of the speech I just made?

610
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: You don't necessarily reason toward an answer from a neutral

611
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: starting point. We often tend to be influenced by sort

612
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: of like data points or hypothetical answers that we can

613
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: kind of hang a hat on to begin with, Which

614
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: might be one reason that you've got a good, you know,

615
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: price written on the on the windshield of a car,

616
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: even if that's not the price you would actually end

617
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: up paying Now this was the Now, the anchoring and

618
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: adjustment model was what the authors were working with. The

619
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 1: I'm that's the idea that we often think by starting

620
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: with an anchor and then we just adjust our estimate

621
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: up or down from the anchor. I was reading some

622
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: follow up work by Gilovich about the adjustment controversy, like,

623
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: is this really the way we think? Is this really

624
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: how we get to our anchor biased answers? Is it

625
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: based on this adjustment process? Apparently that idea has come

626
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: under some criticism in the past few decades, and there

627
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: are arguments about how to best understand what's happening in

628
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: people's heads when they fall for the anchoring bias. We're

629
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: not going to get into the weeds of that argument here.

630
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: You can check out our full episode on the anchoring

631
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: bias for more depth. Um, but whatever the role of

632
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: an adjustment mechanism in the brain, the anchoring effect does

633
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: actually appear in many scenarios, and the authors in this

634
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: paper are saying that the the anchoring effect manifests in

635
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: how we imagine the opinions of other people about us.

636
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: Because our our anchor, our starting point is how we

637
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: feel about ourselves. The stuff we notice about ourselves, and

638
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: then we kind of reason from there to what other

639
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: people's opinions would be. Well, that makes sense again, coming

640
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: back to the idea that we're using theory of mind

641
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: to ultimately create simulations about the mind states of everyone

642
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: in our lives from you know, from the person we're

643
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: closest with, two people that are just you know, like

644
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: supervisors or complete strangers, and uh and and all of

645
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: that is constructed with ourselves at the middle, like our

646
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: model of ourselfs um it is ultimately the like the

647
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: I guess you would say that the support structure on

648
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: which this entire network is built, Right, It's kind of

649
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: like you can't build any bridges two ideas of other

650
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: minds without starting from the foundation of your own. And

651
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: that foundation of your own is going to come with

652
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: a lot of baggage of like knowledge about yourself that

653
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: other people don't have, and high levels of concern about

654
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: your personal attributes that other people might not share, probably

655
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: don't share. And that's everybody We should need to drive

656
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: that home. Like we're not just talking thing about like

657
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,479
Speaker 1: say like like stereotypically egocentric person you know, or someone

658
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: who has like like very obvious, uh, and pronounced personality

659
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: flaws or anything like that, or dealing with with various

660
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: mental health concerns or anything of that nature. But ultimately

661
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: this naive perception is also self perception as well. Yeah, yeah,

662
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: So I guess here we get to the actual empirical

663
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: part of this research, like how would you study this?

664
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: How would you look for empirical evidence of a spotlight effect?

665
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: And there are a number of studies that are covered

666
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: in this paper. I'm going to discuss them in sequence

667
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: and very broad strokes. Uh so, what let me guess

668
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, what's going to be our our our key

669
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: um implement in this study. Is it going to be

670
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: like a god helmet that it stands my brain? Is

671
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: it going to be uh, you know, some other kind

672
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: of like high tech device that I'm cooking my nervous

673
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: system up to. You're extremely close. Now we get into

674
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: the cybernetics of a Barry Manilow T shirt. So the

675
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: question is something maybe a lot of you have wondered before.

676
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: People usually notice what's on your T shirt? Or do

677
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: they just not even care? It's a great question. I know,

678
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: when I wear a T shirt, I'm I I have

679
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: certainly caught myself, especially at least in retrospect, thinking way

680
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: too much about how others will perceive this shirt design. Yeah,

681
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: and what it's saying about me and my interest what

682
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: is it broadcasting to the world, And it would be

683
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: a But at the same time, I feel like I'm

684
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: always very interested in what other people's shirts say, to

685
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: the point that I sometimes feel self conscious about trying

686
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: to understand what someone shirt is because I'm like, I

687
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: don't want to be looking like caught staring at somebody's

688
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: T shirt. I think you probably notice certain kinds of

689
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: shirts more than others. Like you might pick up on

690
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: cues that like, oh, this is a band T shirt,

691
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: and I'm usually kind of interested in band t shirts,

692
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 1: and when we see what this is, But like other things,

693
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: if it's a i'd imagine like a football team or something,

694
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: you might not even take notice. That's true. I guess

695
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: the shirts I'm usually interested in our I guess, you know,

696
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: to a certain extent, band shirts, but if it has

697
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: any kind of like monster type thing, oh yeah, and

698
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: I definitely want to know what's going on. That's right,

699
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: that's our brains, that's just our brains being our brains.

700
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: Uh so so extremely simple set up for the study

701
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: Its dead simple. You get a group of participants to

702
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: gather in a room, and you have them basically in

703
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: there like filling out questionnaires for an experiment that is

704
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: supposedly about memory. And then another participant joins that group late,

705
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: but before they go into the room, you require them

706
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: to put on a Barry Manilow T shirt. Then, after

707
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: they've been in the room for a very brief time,

708
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: you say, actually, uh, this group has already gotten started,

709
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: so we're gonna hold you back for for another session.

710
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: And then you have the Barry Manilow interloper leave the room,

711
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: and then you ask everybody. Okay, you ask the interloper,

712
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: the Berry Manilow T shirt wearer, how many people in

713
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: the room do you think noticed that you were wearing

714
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: a Berry Manlow T shirt? And then you ask the

715
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: people who were in the room if they noticed who

716
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: was on the T shirt? Right, You're just very simple

717
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: comparing the person's expectation of how many people noticed too

718
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: how many people actually noticed. And true to prediction, the

719
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: students who wore the T shirt tended to wildly overestimate

720
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: how many people in the room would notice and be

721
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: able to identify their Manilow T shirt. Generally, the Manilow

722
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: interloper guests that about half of the other students on

723
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: average would be able to identify their T shirt, and

724
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: in reality only about twenty five percent of the observers

725
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: could do it. So in their minds, the people wearing

726
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: this potentially conspicuous piece of clothing mentally doubled the percentage

727
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: of people who they thought would notice it. Real quick, Joe,

728
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: when need the study you were looking at here? Did

729
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 1: you get to see this Manelo T shirt? No? I didn't.

730
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: That's my big question because I'm currently looking at various

731
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: very Manilow T shirts in UM managed search here, and

732
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: they do they do run the gamut here. We have

733
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: some we have some very forgettable Manilow shirts, but we

734
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: have some real singers here. Yeah. Well I think so.

735
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I think what it was

736
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: was it was just like a picture of his face. Okay,

737
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: well even then, like it's a it's a noticeable face.

738
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: I mean that that was That's part of the whole

739
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: business proposal here. But there were also control groups for

740
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: this study. They in the control groups, this was an

741
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 1: interesting calibration. The control groups were not in the room,

742
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: but instead they watched the entire scene play out on

743
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: a video recording, and then they were asked to estimate

744
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: the number of observers who would notice the T shirt,

745
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: and the control groups guessed much closer to the real

746
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: number of people who would actually notice it, and they

747
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: did not overestimate to the extent that the person wearing

748
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: the shirt did. And this was taken as evidence that

749
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: quote the targets inflated estimates are not simply the result

750
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: of misguided general theories about observers powers of observation. In

751
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: other words, the relevant variable is I am the person

752
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: wearing it. Well, that makes sense. Again, we are the

753
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: we are the central character in our own narrative. Okay,

754
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: second study in this paper, so uh. It's worth noting

755
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: that the majority of the students that they interviewed in

756
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: the first study reported, in fact that wearing a very

757
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: Manilow T shirt was considered embarrassing, that Barry Manilow was

758
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: considered kind of corny and uncool. And it doesn't make

759
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 1: me wonder has Barry Manilow come full circle yet? Has

760
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: he become cool again? I don't know. Some of these

761
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: shirts I was just looking at look pretty cool. Yeah,

762
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: I think that was part of the design of the

763
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: first study was that this is a figure that not

764
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: everybody but a lot of people wearing the shirt. Would

765
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just like any face. It's somebody

766
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: who a lot of students would probably feel kind of

767
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 1: embarrassed to be wearing a shirt of. But the question is, like,

768
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: does this phenomenon hold for T shirts that would not

769
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: be embarrassing? That would just be a picture of anybody,

770
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: maybe anybody that the student liked. So the second study

771
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: tested for the spotlight effect with reference to non embarrassing

772
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: personal details. It replicated the design of the first study,

773
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 1: but it allowed students to choose a T shirt featuring

774
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: a person that they liked and viewed as not embarrassing.

775
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 1: So it might be a T shirt of like Bob

776
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: Marley or Jerry Seinfeld or something. Wait, was Jerry Seinfeld? Really?

777
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: Was that? Was he specifically mentioned? And yeah, yeah, that

778
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,479
Speaker 1: was one of them. How is that Jerry Seinfeld shirt

779
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: not embarrassing? I don't know. Some people didn't think it was.

780
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: You know, times changed, this was what you're two thousands

781
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, I get the Bob Marley shirt.

782
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: I think remains that remains cool, But I just have

783
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: questions about the Gears Science Felt shirt. Maybe this is

784
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: again just tells more, says some more about my interest

785
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: versus other people's interests. But maybe I am uncool for

786
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: not wearing them. No, no, no, you're very cool, Robert.

787
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: But again there was a huge mismatch right between even

788
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: when you're wearing a shirt that's not conspicuously embarrassed, saying

789
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: to a number of students, people just predicted that observers

790
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: would notice who was on their shirt a lot more

791
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: than the observers actually did. It just makes me think

792
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: of of of myself or anyone you know. You've got

793
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: that new shirt and you're like, is today today? It

794
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: is today the day that I wear this, uh, this

795
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: new shirt going unleashed, this bad boy on an unsuspecting world.

796
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: Is the world ready? And yeah, the thing is, yeah,

797
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: they're ready, and yeah they'll be fine. Calson like don't

798
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: rended to worry about um Yeah, so so okay, But

799
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: that's appearance, that's just clothing items. What about for behavior?

800
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: Can we look for examples of this in behavior? So

801
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: the third study tested for whether the spotlight effect exists

802
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: not just for clothing, but for specifically stuff people say

803
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: in a group setting. Quote. In particular, we sought to

804
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: investigate whether people tend to believe that their positive and

805
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 1: negative actions stand out to others more than they actually do.

806
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: And this was tested with stage to discussion groups. So

807
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: they would have a discussion group meeting and then they

808
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: would ask people afterwards to rate other participants on both

809
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: positive and negative dimensions of their contributions. So you'd rate

810
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: all the people you just had a group with, and

811
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: you'd say, how much did participant X due to advance

812
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: the discussion. That'd be a positive mark, and then negative

813
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: things would be like how many speech errors did participant

814
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 1: X make? Or how likely was participants to offend someone?

815
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: And participants also rated, of course, what they thought others

816
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: would think of them. You know, then they turned it

817
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: on themselves and they found the same thing. The study

818
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: indicated that we tend to overestimate the salience of our

819
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: behavior to others in both positive and negative ways. So

820
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: it's not just like a self serving bias or self

821
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: critical bias. It's just we tend to assume people are

822
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: paying way more attention and noticing way more about the

823
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: stuff we do, both good and bad, which makes me

824
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: think of like the hell Raiser Ta line, it's like

825
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 1: angels to some devils to others. But really maybe you

826
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: think am I an angel or a devil? And in

827
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: fact you're just kind of a gray blur that someone

828
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: does not recall in any way, just an antiagu Now,

829
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: an important thing that's worth pointing out here is that

830
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: people's self ratings on this discussion group thing, we're not

831
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: entirely divorced from reality. To the contrary, the study found

832
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: that these ratings were in some ways based in reality.

833
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: People who rated themselves as doing more to advance the

834
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: discussion we're also on average rated by others as doing

835
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: more to advance the discussion. And people who rated themselves

836
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: as more likely to have said something that offended someone

837
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: were in fact more likely to have said something that

838
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: offended someone. But it's the size of these effects, both

839
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: positive and negative, that was exaggerated when people were thinking

840
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: about themselves so in self evaluation and insightful comment that

841
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: might have actually been an insightful comment to you, it

842
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: feels like, wow, that was earth shaking, I really changed

843
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: the game, or a faux paw that other people might notice,

844
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: but you know, doesn't really stand out to them all

845
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: that much. It might become reputation ruining, this terror, this obsession. Yeah,

846
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: that's interesting. Um, and again I wonder I can't help

847
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: think about social media and when you have systems that

848
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: are set up so that comments that are insightful may

849
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: seem more earth shaking because they are being you know,

850
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: re shared or retweeted or or lighthearted, etcetera. And then

851
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: and then likewise there is the negative reaction to the

852
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: things as well, And of course those tend to be

853
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 1: the extremes that we we we hear about in a

854
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: in a digital setting. Yeah, but even then, I think

855
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: the reality is that, like most people are not paying

856
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: attention to you and won't remember anything you did, right, right,

857
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: it's just humbling in a kind of nice way. Yeah. Okay,

858
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: a couple more studies real quick. One of them is

859
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: in the fourth one. This recreated the early T shirt scenario,

860
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: but then ask participants questions to probe how they came

861
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: up with their estimates. This is how the authors were

862
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: trying to test whether or not it was an anchoring

863
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: and adjustment mental process that people were using to to

864
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: get to their mistaken assumptions about other people's views of them,

865
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: and uh so their model Again, this could be it

866
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: could turn out that this is not the best way

867
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: to model the thinking going on here. But what they

868
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 1: thought at the time was that people start with their

869
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: own rich and powerful sense of how they appear to others.

870
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: They realize correctly that other people are not paying as

871
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: much attention to them as they pay to themselves, so

872
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: they may be adjust down from their own experience to

873
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: a hypothetical other observer, but they don't adjust enough. So

874
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, how important was what I just did? Uh? Well,

875
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: to me, it was a ten, but I know other

876
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: people probably aren't going to rate it at ten, so

877
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: I'll say it's a nine to them, but in reality

878
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: was maybe like a yeah or a four. And then

879
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: the last of the last of the studies, the fifth one.

880
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: This one I think established something that's very important that

881
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: we can come back to in a minute. This tested habituation.

882
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: If people are allowed a period to get used to

883
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: wearing the unfamiliar very Manilow T shirt, will they feel

884
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: less self conscious about others noticing it? And the answer

885
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: is yes. If you wear the T shirt for a

886
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: while before going in front of other people, you will

887
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: tend to imagine that fewer of them took notice of

888
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: it than if you just put it on and then

889
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: go in. But of course, in these scenarios, absolutely nothing

890
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: has changed for the observers. The only thing that has

891
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: changed is you. The more that you're more used to

892
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: the shirt yourself, you're less conscious of it, so you

893
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: imagine less consciousness among others. So in this game, like

894
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: if if I don't know if anyone has ever had

895
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: this experience being you know, somebody who wears a well

896
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: worn but offensive T shirt an inappropriate setting, um, like

897
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, they're used to it, they're used to the

898
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: potentially profane statement that is on it. But everyone else, man,

899
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: it might not be ready for Yes, I think this

900
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: is actually a various tute observation and it will come

901
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: back to something I want to get at right at

902
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 1: the end, here, should we take another break, and then

903
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: when we come back we can discuss some of the

904
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: implications of this research. Let's do it. We'll be right back,

905
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. All right, we're back. We're continuing

906
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: our discussion here of of the spotlight effect and uh

907
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: and of course the various key shirt experiments, Uh that

908
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: relate to that explanation. Yeah, So I wanted to talk

909
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: about some commentary on and and implications from the spotlight effect.

910
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: To whatever extent this is a real effect, it does

911
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: appear like it still stands. I mean, I would be

912
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: interested to see some more recent research replicating this, but

913
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: but it looks pretty solid to me. One of the

914
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: things that the lead author of the study we've been

915
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: talking about, Gilovich, Uh, he's noted in another source he

916
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: actually had an article a about the spotlight effect for

917
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: the Encyclopedia of Social Psychology edited by Baumeister and Voes.

918
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: And in that article, Gilovich notes that research indicates the

919
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 1: quote people of all ages are prone to the spotlight effect,

920
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: but it appears to be particularly pronounced among adolescents and

921
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: young adults. So as you get older, the spotlight effect

922
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: seems to work less powerfully on your brain. What would

923
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: explain this, Well, one answer might be experienced. Right in

924
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: over time, you just learn through experience that people pay

925
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 1: less attention to you and notice less about you than

926
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: you expect them to. And it's possible this does play

927
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: some role. Maybe you get conditioned, you kind of learn

928
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: how things work in life, and you experience less of

929
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: this cognitive bias. But Gilovich identifies a different reason, and

930
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: that reason is that social motivation is stronger when you're younger.

931
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: Younger people show a heightened consciousness of and concerned for

932
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: their standing within social groups quote. But having a heightened

933
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: concern with one's social standing means, by its very nature,

934
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: that one is vulnerable to having an excessive concern with

935
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: one standing and hence is likely to overestimate the extent

936
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: to which one is the target of others thoughts and attention.

937
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: So I'd say to take away from this maybe a

938
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: special message to like younger and like teenage listeners, like

939
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: other people really probably are noticing less about you and

940
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: thinking less about you than you think they are, as

941
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: shocking as that may be to hear. Another thing that

942
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: that's related to this idea that the authors mentioned in

943
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: their in their discussion section on their paper is the

944
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: way that the spotlight effect relates to something that's known

945
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: as the illusion of transparency. So the illusion of transparency

946
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: is the belief that your internal states are more observable

947
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: to others than they actually are. We often assume that

948
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: our unspoken thoughts and our feelings can be sort of

949
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: sniffed out and discerned by people around us. But that's

950
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: usually not true, not not to the extent that we

951
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: think it is. And there are examples of this from

952
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: empirical research. For example, if you stage a mock negotiation

953
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 1: where people are trying to, you know, negotiate to get

954
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: to a certain price on something, people tend to imagine

955
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: that they have given away more information about what they're

956
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: trying to get than they actually have. Another variation is

957
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: that studies show that a lot of times people imagine

958
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: that other people can tell when they are lying, but

959
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: in reality, people can't actually tell when people are lying,

960
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: or at least I mean, some people maybe can tell

961
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 1: some of the time, but most of the time, other

962
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 1: people cannot tell if you're lying, cannot spot your lies

963
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: with nearly as much accuracy as you think they can

964
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: do with that information what you will, I really don't.

965
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: I think it's it's like, it's a great point because

966
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: first of all, we all lie, like lying is is

967
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: is part of our communication. Sweet you know we're gonna

968
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: individuals are gonna engage in it to varying degrees, but

969
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, it is important to have that tool in

970
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,720
Speaker 1: your toolbox. You know, if someone shows you a picture

971
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: of a baby and and uh and and and you're

972
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: expected to comment upon it, it is generally in your

973
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: best interest to lie if you think that baby is ugly, right,

974
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 1: or or at least find some way to uh that

975
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: is not just comedic adherence to truth. Right, You can

976
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: you can find something nice to say that isn't necessarily untrue. Right.

977
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: And yet at the same time, lying can be, or

978
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: at least certainly feel like a high risk act, right.

979
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean, no one wants to be caught in a

980
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: lie um, even if the stakes are ultimately kind of low.

981
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess maybe even more so at times

982
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: if the stakes are low, because why are you lying

983
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 1: about that? Well, like, why didn't you say you didn't

984
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: like this picture of my baby? Or I don't know

985
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: me say, I can't think of a specific example, but okay,

986
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: here's a potential example where if someone says, hey, if

987
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: you're seeing guy hard too, and you're like, oh, yeah,

988
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: it's pretty good, and and maybe the thing is you

989
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, you have no interest in saying maybe

990
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: you think that the whole concept sounds kind of stupid,

991
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: but you want to be polite about it, and you

992
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: also don't want to be You don't want to the

993
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: plot to have to be explained to you now you

994
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: know you didn't see it in the theater. You also

995
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: don't want to hear your friend Ron surprise it for you.

996
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: But then if they're like, oh, yeah, what was your

997
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: favorite part? Well, crap. Now this has become a much

998
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: stickier situation because I'm lying about having seen Guy Hard too. Yeah.

999
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: But people tend to assume that, like that fact that

1000
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: they're lying about having seen die Hard Too is somehow

1001
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: leaking out of them in an observable way. And in

1002
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: some cases it might be like some people do have

1003
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: big tells when they're lying, but generally that information is

1004
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: not leaking out as much as people imagine it is.

1005
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: And I wonder if this is compounded to a certain

1006
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: extent by the lying we observe in media lying, that is,

1007
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: the are exposed via conflicting relevant media like here's a

1008
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 1: here's one scene of politicians saying one thing, and here's another.

1009
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: Here's the another bit of footage that shows that they're lying,

1010
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: or more often overt lying by a fictional character, which,

1011
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: of course is is played up for dramatic effect and

1012
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: is also an artificial situation, you know, and that we

1013
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: know they are lying to another care Oh yeah. But

1014
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: it's also like there is there's a stock type of

1015
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: hero in like detective fiction and all that, the person

1016
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: who can just magically tell when other people are lying

1017
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: and that that skill. No, but then there's a wonderful

1018
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:45,240
Speaker 1: character in the recent Watchman series on HBO looking Glass, Yes,

1019
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: played by the great Tim Blake Nelson. I mean the

1020
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: character has the tower, not not Nelson himself, right, yeah,

1021
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 1: And we love characters like that, right, I mean, that's

1022
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: a really fun power to try to see realized in fiction.

1023
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: But uh, just lies or not disease need to sniff

1024
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: out as I mean to to really detectualize in reality.

1025
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: What you have to try to do is like trap

1026
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: people in contradictions and stuff like ask a bunch of

1027
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: follow up questions. It doesn't just leak out of your

1028
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: face that yes I'm telling a lie and you can

1029
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: smell it absolutely. And you know, I also think about

1030
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: this in terms of religious upbringing. Um, I don't know

1031
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: about you, but the growing up in the sort of

1032
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: pen optagonical teachings of of a Protestant Church. There was

1033
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: always this idea that God and and also the devil

1034
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: and perhaps other entities like lesser angels and demons what

1035
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 1: have you were privy to your inner thoughts, you know,

1036
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: the whole idea that it wasn't just what you said

1037
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: and did that made you sinful, it was also what

1038
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: you were thinking about doing, or considering doing, or just

1039
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: entertaining the mental images of doing. So there was this

1040
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: ingrained notion that your private thoughts are not private at all,

1041
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: at least not so far as supernatural entities are concerned. Yeah,

1042
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: that's right, And I guess it is possible that this

1043
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: could have a conditioning effect to make you assume that general,

1044
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: your private thoughts are not private. Maybe they're observable not

1045
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: just two supernatural entities, but to other regular entities that

1046
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 1: you interact with every day. Yeah, because I definitely remember

1047
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: at times, certainly when I was younger, sort of freaking

1048
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: out at times about just the idea of other humans

1049
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: being privated in my thoughts, you know, an idea that

1050
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: was probably also compounded by science fiction that is just

1051
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: lousy with psychics, right, um, and also these not quite

1052
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: psychics but just really insightful TV. So with the Hannibal lecters,

1053
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: basically they like, look at you and tell your whole

1054
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: life story. Yeah. But but then again, as we've discussed

1055
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 1: on the show before, this is this sort of fear

1056
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: is not entirely unfounded given the potential trajectory of some

1057
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: of our technology. That's true, but that's technology. I mean,

1058
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: normally people are not doing like AI, you know, learning

1059
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: on data sets about your social media use or whatever.

1060
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: There was one more example given about the illusion of

1061
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: transparency that I really liked, which was that, uh, people

1062
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: overestimated the extent to which observers could tell whether the

1063
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: drink they were drinking was pleasant or nasty tasting, even

1064
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: though they were supposed to use a neutral facial expression.

1065
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: So you give people drinks this one, this one tastes good,

1066
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: this one tastes disgusting, and you tell them they have

1067
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: to maintain a neutrol facial expression while they drink them.

1068
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: People assumed, oh, yeah, people can just read it on

1069
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: my face that you know that that was a nasty one.

1070
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: But it turns out people can't read all that. Well.

1071
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: Good to know when you have your next inner party

1072
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: um in the year, hopefully it's gonna be the next

1073
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: thing after a competitive eating right now, So right now

1074
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 1: it's the people who wolfed down like thirty white castles

1075
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. The next thing is how many nasty drinks

1076
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: can you drink? I can see it becoming a big hit. Okay,

1077
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: one last thing. So the authors of this two thousand

1078
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: paper ask a question, when is the spotlight effect most

1079
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: pronounced and when is it least pronounced? There'll be such

1080
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: a thing as like a reverse spotlight effect, a sort

1081
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: of mental cloak of invisibility where other people are noticing

1082
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: you more than you think they are, And the authors think, yeah,

1083
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: this is probably possible. They claim that this would probably

1084
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: correlate with the subject's own consciousness of their appearance or behavior.

1085
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: So obviously, the more conscious you are of your own

1086
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: appearance and behavior, the more conscious of it you imagine

1087
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: other people are, and probably vice versa. If you're less

1088
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: conscious of yourself, you're imagining other people are less conscious

1089
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: of you. And so for this reason, it might be

1090
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: correlated somewhat to the novelty of what you're doing or wearing,

1091
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: or what you look like or how you sound. So

1092
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: remember in the fifth study in in that paper, uh,

1093
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: the spotlight effect was less pronounced for people who had

1094
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: some time to get used to wearing a potentially embarrassing,

1095
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: conspicuous T shirt. So it's highly possible that we are

1096
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: most likely to manifest the spotlight effect when we're doing

1097
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: something new or unusual. Well, that's interesting. It kind of

1098
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: ties back to what we're talking about earlier, about when

1099
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: you're about to say something in a meeting and you're

1100
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 1: putting a lot of cognitive effort into preparing for that

1101
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: and preparing to do something that you don't normally do. Yeah, exactly,

1102
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: takes more effort, it takes up more space in your brain.

1103
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: It's more salient to you, and you assume it's more

1104
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: salient to other people. So it's possible. This isn't proven yet,

1105
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: but it's possible that the inverse effect, where we would

1106
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: underestimate how much other people are noticing our appearance and behavior,

1107
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: it's possible this happens when we are least conscious, meaning

1108
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: during highly familiar, routine or automatic behaviors. There's actually an

1109
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: example that has been studied here, uh and the example

1110
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: and I thought this was interesting. So people underestimate the

1111
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: extent to which other people notice their cologne or perfume,

1112
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: so you cover yourself in a fragrance, you become accustomed

1113
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: to that fragrance and you stop noticing it, right Olfactory

1114
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: desensitization sets in. You no longer smell it yourself, so

1115
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: it basically disappears for you. But other people smell it

1116
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: even if you don't expect them to. Yeah. Yeah, I

1117
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: think we all have had that experience with with someone

1118
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: who has just outrageously powerful per fume, you know, like

1119
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: sometimes the extent that it announces their presence. Yes, yeah,

1120
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: sometimes people just lather up. And this makes me wonder

1121
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: about whether the spotlight effect is especially salient for appearance, because,

1122
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: of course, we normally can't really see ourselves when we're

1123
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: going about our lives. If we're in a regular business

1124
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: meeting talking, we can't see our face. We might be

1125
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: able to see our bodies if we look down at it.

1126
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: We're probably not looking down, probably looking up at the room.

1127
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: But we're also frequently suddenly reminded of our appearance when

1128
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: we walk in front of a mirror or log into

1129
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: a web meeting or something. So it might be the

1130
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: sort of perfect mix of obliviousness in your regular behaviors

1131
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: and then the sudden shocking reminders of oh yeah, I

1132
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: look like this to external people, and that kind of

1133
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: keeps you on your toes. Like what if after putting

1134
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: on some cologne you could suddenly smell it intensely again

1135
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: every hour or so. Yeah, I mean that's theme. You

1136
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: put it like that, it almost sounds like it would

1137
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: be helpful. But I don't feel like our experiences with

1138
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: our own footage in a zoom call or what have you,

1139
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: is necessarily helpful. It really feels like built in egocentric feedback, yeah,

1140
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: because there's too much of it. It's just constantly there.

1141
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: So anyway, if we assume that the spotlight effect is real,

1142
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: it is a something that's generally true about people might

1143
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: not be true to the same extent for everyone. But

1144
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: if this effect is correctly observed, what would the implications

1145
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: for our lives be. Well, Gilovich has actually gotten kind

1146
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: of kind of sweet about this, so he notes that,

1147
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, there's studies that show that later in life,

1148
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: most people report that their major regrets about their lives

1149
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: concern things that they failed to do rather than things

1150
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: that they did. It's not the same for everybody, but

1151
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: that is a much more common framing and you've probably

1152
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 1: read about this before. This is widely observed. So many

1153
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 1: of the things that people want to do, but never do,

1154
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: they hold back from them out of a sense of

1155
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: self consciousness or anxiety about how people are going to

1156
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: perceive us, you know, for doing these things. So one

1157
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,439
Speaker 1: easy example might be that you failed to ever take

1158
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: up playing a musical instrument because you fear that other

1159
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: people will judge you as unskilled at playing it, especially

1160
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: at first. And so the research on the spotlight effects

1161
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: suggests that we are were very likely to be overestimating,

1162
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: perhaps even grossly overestimating, how much people would even notice

1163
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: whatever it is that we're afraid of doing. And the

1164
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 1: authors of the study right quote. The lesson of this

1165
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 1: research then, is that we might all have fewer regrets

1166
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 1: if we properly understood how much attention or inattention our

1167
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: actions actually draw from others. Yeah, that is. It is

1168
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: kind of a sweet twist on it. You know. It's

1169
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 1: like saying, look, go go for it, go through you

1170
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: live your dream, because nobody's really going to pay that

1171
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: much attention even when it falls flat. Dance like nobody's watching,

1172
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: because probably nobody is watching, or if they are watching

1173
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: they might not even remember. I mean, it's just like

1174
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: you're you're probably way over concerned about possible minor faux

1175
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: pause or looking weird or awkward. Yeah, like they're probably

1176
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: even if they're they're watching you and they're thinking about it,

1177
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: they're probably thinking, oh, man, do I look like that

1178
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: when I danced by myself? What do I look like

1179
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: when I danced by myself? This? Uh uh, this reminds me.

1180
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 1: That's talking about situations where you realize that it may

1181
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: be perceived as as weird by other people, were embarrassing

1182
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: by people. So obviously I've mentioned Star Wars like three

1183
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: times so far. I'm mostly tracked in the house here

1184
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 1: and me and my son are super in Star Wars.

1185
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: He has a couple of lightsabers, and he'll he'll often

1186
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 1: ask me to go out to have a lightsaber battle

1187
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: with him, which is something we have to do outside

1188
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 1: because otherwise we would destroy things in the house, and

1189
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: we have to do it in the front yard because

1190
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: the mosquitoes are too bad in the back yard. Um,

1191
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: so we'll have this fight in the front yard. People

1192
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 1: driving by we'll be able to see it, which generally

1193
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: I imagine they'll say oh, well, there's a dad having

1194
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 1: a lightsaber battle with with his son. That's great, the

1195
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: sweetest thing you'll see all day. But occasionally my son,

1196
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: who's much he gets so into this. Occasionally he'll have

1197
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: to run over to the side of the house to

1198
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: like fight a pretend droid or something, which leaves me

1199
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 1: in the front yard apparently by myself fighting pretend droids.

1200
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: And I realized when that happens, people may drive by

1201
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: and think that I have lost my mind, um, which

1202
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm I'm okay with I'm ultimately okay.

1203
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't think you got anything to worry about. Man.

1204
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: That's that that that's gonna be the ray of sunshine

1205
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: in the in the day of so many people driving by. Seriously,

1206
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 1: if I was driving by and I saw uh, and

1207
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: I saw some people having a lightsaber duel in their

1208
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: front yard, I would be like, that's you know, there's hope,

1209
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,919
Speaker 1: a new hope. Yeah. Maybe maybe that's what I'm doing.

1210
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: I'm giving people hope that they they're like, I didn't

1211
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: realize I could do that as a grown up, that

1212
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: I could just uh get a lightsaber and uh and

1213
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: start having pretend battles in my front yard. I'm gonna

1214
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: do it. That's gonna make this quarantine situation a lot easier.

1215
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: Along the same lines, I am extremely in favor of

1216
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: adults climbing trees. There's this bizarre idea that adults shouldn't

1217
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 1: climb trees. Climbing trees is for children. Why adults should

1218
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,959
Speaker 1: climb trees all the time? I love a good climbing tree.

1219
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: It's a good skill to have. I see people in

1220
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: movies having to do it all the time to escape,

1221
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 1: like you know, robot and monsters and whynot. Yeah, so

1222
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: go for it. Yeah, those like those Boston Dynamics dog

1223
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 1: robots are coming for you. Where are you gonna go?

1224
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: You got to get a joke, like suddenly you've got

1225
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: to climb a tree and you haven't been practicing for

1226
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: twenty or thirty years. Good luck? And then what if

1227
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: you have to fight it with a lifesaver. Also, you've

1228
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: got to keep those skills war you know, these are

1229
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: the skills one needs to survive in the waste land. Alright, Well,

1230
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna go ahead and close it out there. I

1231
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: think we have there's a lot of material in here

1232
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: for everyone to think about, and we of course, await

1233
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: listener responses to this, how how do you perceive the

1234
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: spotlight effect in your own life or in the lives

1235
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 1: of others? Has this forced you to to rethink anything

1236
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: going on in the world around you, or how you

1237
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: indeed engage in your daily or weekly U conference digital

1238
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: conference calls for the book. In the meantime, if you

1239
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to

1240
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, including that when we mentioned anchor in

1241
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 1: the Mind dealing with anchoring, you can find those wherever

1242
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I will say this, you can

1243
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: certainly find our our I heart radio list by going

1244
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 1: to stuff Toble your Mind dot com. And if you

1245
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: go there, you'll see a little part of the page

1246
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 1: and says show links. There is a store link there,

1247
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 1: and if you go there you will find T shirts

1248
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 1: that are bringing it around. And some of them are cool. Uh,

1249
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:19,679
Speaker 1: some of them I would personally be embarrassed to wear.

1250
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: You'll have to look at them and trying to decide

1251
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 1: which which design is great. But we charge every listener

1252
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: to buy one cool T shirt and one extremely embarrassing

1253
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: T shirt. Yes, well we have both there, so go

1254
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: check them out if you so desire Um. I don't know.

1255
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 1: None of them have very manolol on the front though,

1256
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: so you need to do a separate image search to

1257
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: see what I'm talking about there. Huge thanks as always

1258
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producers Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you

1259
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

1260
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

1261
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hi, you can

1262
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 1: email us at contact that Stuff to Blow your Mind

1263
01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

1264
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1265
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,679
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1266
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:21,520
Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.