1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and Samantha. I'm not going to 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: step I ever told your production of ihat radio. So recently, um, 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: we did an episode and actually we're recording this out 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: of order, so this might be a surprise to you, Samantha, 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: But we did an episode on the Disney film and 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: Canto and my reaction to a song in there, because 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: that movie is very much about family and family dynamics 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: and sibling dynamics, and me and my good friend Marissa 9 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: really connected over the song over the holidays because it 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: was all about kind of distress of being the person 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: usually the middle child, trying to keep your family together, 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: the older child, and and the pressure of that. And uh, 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: I know, it's just something I think about a lot, 14 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: and i've because I was kind of the I'm I'm 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: a middle child and I have an older brother and 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: younger brother, and I think there's a lot of reasons 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: why I fit into the kind of the middle child trope. 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: UM one was even though I was the only girl 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: in the family, I was as part of that, I 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: felt more pressure to be more responsible. I can't speak 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: for my brothers, but that's just what I was internalizing. 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: But I did like I got forgotten at school if 23 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: they didn't have to pick them up like I God, like, 24 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: she's fine, don't worry about her, which is just It's 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: one of those things where when I got older and 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: I was telling people this, they were like, are you okay? Yes, 27 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: but I don't know. It's just been on my mind lately. 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: And yes, Smith and we will be talking about it 29 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: and blisters. You might have already heard it. Yes, yes, 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: it yes, but in the speriod of that, I wanted 31 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: to bring back this classic episode on middle children. Please enjoy. 32 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House Supports 33 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 34 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about middle children 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: because this podcast is coming out around Middle Children Day 36 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: because in the twenty one century, every everything has a day, 37 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: and middle children, I think, really deserve a day because 38 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: they're stereotype as just such well middle children. Yeah, and 39 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: this is coming from an only child and a youngest child. Yeah, 40 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't say that I'm biased against middle children. 41 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: Actually have lots of sympathy for middle children simply because 42 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: there are so many assumptions that they have all sorts 43 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: of personality ticks, shall we call it. Yeah, And what's 44 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: interesting about this assumptions is the negative stuff, and in particular, 45 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: it hasn't always been that way for a long time, 46 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: Like the earliest research was saying that the middle children 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: were probably going to be the most successful. And even 48 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: within the personality traits that researchers tend to ascribe to 49 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: middle children, there are positive ones, but it seems like 50 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: in our culture we really only hear about the negative. 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: So for the seventy million middle children in the United States, 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: this podcast is for you. Yeah, we're no longer ignoring you. No, 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: we're not ignoring you. Yeah. Sorry, sorry that this birth 54 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: order podcast came so so far after the other ones. Yeah, 55 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: coming from a youngest child, I'm not trying to steal 56 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: the spotlight, this one's all for you, and I'm i 57 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: as an only child, I am making an effort to share. 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: So let's look a little bit at the history of 59 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: birth order research. Because we've talked about birth order before 60 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: on the podcast. And I don't know about Caroline, but 61 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: I find it endlessly fascinating. Yeah, I mean I find 62 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: it interesting that researchers find it so interesting too. Like 63 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: you said, ascribe so much meaning to where your place 64 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: falls in the family. And so one of those earliest 65 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: researchers looking into birth order was France of Galton, who 66 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: was actually Darwin's half cousin. So that family has a 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: lot going on. But scholarly interest in this whole arena 68 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: can be traced back to a Mr. Galton in eighteen 69 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: seventy four when he published English Men of Science Their 70 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: Nature and Nurture. And we hear the term the phrase 71 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: nature versus nurture a lot, especially in kind of social 72 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: stuff social research. Well, this Galton guy is actually the 73 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: one who coined the phrase. Yeah, and it's kind of 74 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: funny that in this book Englishman of Science he essentially 75 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: comes to a conclusion that being a firstborn male and 76 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: he didn't the male part wasn't in there for reasons 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: we'll get into, just be of firstborn was the best 78 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: because out of the one eighty men that he chronicled 79 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: across all sorts of scientific fields, he found that ninety 80 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: nine of them were firstborn. So I was like, well, clearly, 81 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: being the firstborn simply, you know, sets you up for 82 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: being a super brilliant guy in science, and that's awesome, 83 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: which is funny because Francis was the youngest child. Yeah. 84 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 1: But so the whole thing about his birth order research though, 85 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: and we will talk more about this a little bit later, 86 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: is that Galton didn't count sisters. So yes, a man 87 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: might be the firstborn son, but that doesn't mean he's 88 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: the firstborn. And so that, among so many other aspects 89 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: of early research, is important to keep in mind. But 90 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: moving from Galton on to Alfred Adler, he's also a 91 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: big name in this early research. He's the founder of 92 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: individual psychology and Tidbit was the second of seven children. 93 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: He was born in eighteen seventy to give you a 94 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: little time context. And Adler is the one who really 95 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: blew the lid off the significance of birth order because 96 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: he linked it to all sorts of things including psychiatric disorders, intelligence, creativity, 97 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: and even sexual orientation. Right. And his view, which granted 98 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: was mostly anecdotal, was that firstborns do benefit from being 99 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: the sole focus until they are dethroned by the second child. 100 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: So if you're looking at a hypothetical three child family, 101 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: he said that the oldest you guys, you oldest children 102 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: out there not gonna like this. He says the oldest 103 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: are the most likely to suffer from neuroticism and substance 104 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: abuse as they attempt to compensate for excessive responsibility and 105 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: loss of position because they were dethroned. Then he looked 106 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: at the youngest, Kristen, Hello here muffs. He says that 107 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: the youngest are over in indulged, which leads to poor 108 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: social empathy, which listeners, I assure you is not true 109 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: of miss Conger. I'm just stuffing my face with pizza 110 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: and ice cream right now. And then he gets to 111 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: the middle and you know, he was one of his 112 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: own family's middle children, and he points out that he 113 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: believes middle children would be the most successful because they 114 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't suffer from either the oldest dethronement or the youngest 115 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: over indulgence. Yeah, if you just plot siblings out on 116 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: the spectrum, you have the middle kids who are just 117 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: right there in the comfortable, cushy position in Adler's view. 118 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: And that's so fascinating because we start out with middle 119 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: children being perhaps the most set up for a more 120 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: balanced life. Yeah, but, like I mentioned a second ago, 121 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: pretty much everything we know from the research from Adler 122 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: and Galton is somewhat inaccurate because they left out so 123 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: much stuff that's that is important to keep in mind 124 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: in this kind of psychological research. And by important stuff 125 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: do you mean women, Yeah, like, it's stuff like women. Yeah, 126 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: I mean because one thing that's important to keep in 127 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: mind with birth order, especially when we're looking at this 128 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: earliest research, is that we are not so far away 129 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: from the days of prima jenitor, when automatically someone's you know, 130 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: family's wealth and property would be passed along to the 131 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: firstborn son, and that son could have seven plus older sisters, 132 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: but he would still get everything, because that's the way 133 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: things flow down. And so when you add girls, daughters, 134 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: sisters back into the equation, and that's something that could trend. 135 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: Shulman talks about in her book that she co wrote, 136 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: The Secret Power of Middle Children, for instance, that when 137 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: they went back in and added the sisters of US presidents, 138 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: which a lot of times we hear, oh, well, most 139 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: US presidents were the firstborns actually of US presidents or 140 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: middle borns, because for so long they're older sisters weren't counted. Yeah, 141 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: that doesn't even the brain parts cannot even comprehend this. 142 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: But they were like, oh, well, there are these lady 143 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: people who are also in the house. We're not sure 144 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: who they are, but they certainly don't count. Well, they 145 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: kind of didn't count because they once they were simply 146 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: married off and had no rights of their own under 147 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: coverture laws for a really long time. Well yeah, And 148 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: in terms of talking about the support that children receive, 149 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: even if there are a bunch of older sisters, it's 150 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: not like they're going to be afforded the same educational 151 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: opportunities financial support that they're younger brothers will. So in 152 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: that regard, it is almost like these male siblings, even 153 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: if they are younger than their sisters, are sort of 154 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: firstborn if we're talking about the degree of support they get. Um, 155 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: So a younger brother might be set up or life, 156 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: whereas his older sisters are just expected to marry into 157 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: money and find support themselves. Exactly. And in addition to 158 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: leaving the girls out of the equation, a lot of 159 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: those older studies didn't take family size into account either, 160 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: because obviously, being the second of two children versus being 161 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: the second of seven children is going to play out 162 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: differently in terms of family dynamics, right, and what's available 163 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: in terms of resources and attention from parents. Um. One 164 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: interesting example that was brought up and stuff we read 165 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: was just talking about family position and how that can 166 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: shift based on family events like death, birth, et cetera. 167 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: Why that's important is because social position, rather than just 168 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: your ordinal birth order, actually tends to predict i Q. 169 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: Researchers have found the oldest children in a family tend 170 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: to have higher i q s. But if an old 171 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: their child dies, the younger one who is now the 172 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: oldest is then seem to have an IQ that's higher 173 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: than average for his birth order position. What is up 174 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: with that? Researchers say that when children are very young, 175 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: the the you know, quote unquote verbal attention that they 176 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: get from their parents, their parents being excited about them 177 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: and excited for their kids to learn language is very key. 178 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: So when you're when you have that firstborn and you're 179 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: sterilizing everything and you're trying to say fancy, big words 180 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: in front of them so that they learned to speak, 181 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: that maybe part of the middle child curse is that 182 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: attention sort of drops off, and so it's that whole 183 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: early attention to language that helps boost the i Q. See. 184 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: I think that this is an anecdotal aside, but with 185 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: the language factor, I feel like, as the youngest of 186 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 1: five children, I was just just showered in language because 187 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: I had all these siblings and my parents talking to me. 188 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: I wonder if just the research maybe is more general. 189 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. Maybe they just assumed that, like, 190 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: if you're a middle or a youngest, you're just going 191 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: to be like forgotten about in a side room somewhere. Well, 192 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: the thing about these kinds of studies is that there 193 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: are so many different variables that will play into how 194 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: you grow up and how your personality develops, right exactly, Um, 195 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, people might simply just relate differently to 196 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: one another in a family based on whether they're the parent, 197 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: or whether they're one of the siblings, whether they're male 198 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: or female, and whether as a parent. I mean, you 199 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: might if you were a middle child yourself, you might 200 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: identify more with your child who's a middle or older 201 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: and older only and only that kind of thing. Yeah, 202 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: my dad was the youngest of or is the youngest 203 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: of two, and I know for a fact that he 204 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: especially doated on me as the youngest child. Well yeah, 205 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: and I think you know that could have a lot 206 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: to do with you know, parents or families in general, 207 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: projecting things whether your dad was the youngest and so 208 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: he wanted to protect you from any negative feelings that 209 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: he experienced as a youngest, or whether good things happen 210 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: to him as the youngest, and he wanted to make 211 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: sure you experience those good things too. So a lot 212 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: of times parents can sort of create a self fulfilling 213 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: prophecy situation where maybe they have stereotypes in their own 214 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: brains about how certain children behave in certain different ways, 215 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: and they either accidentally end up bringing it out or 216 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: they try their hardest to counteract it. And I can 217 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: only imagine now some parents unfortunately being like Tim is 218 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: such a middle child my goodness. Um. But when you 219 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: look though at just the history of the research on 220 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: birth order, there has been an interesting tug of war 221 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: over time because you have Adler and then you know 222 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people from there up until the eighties saying, oh, yeah, 223 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: birth order, we can correlate it to all sorts of 224 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: things and it means everything. And then in the eighties 225 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: there was this big meta analysis of all these old 226 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: studies which said, actually, birth order no big deal. But 227 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: then this researcher named Soloway came around and he controlled 228 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: for variables like class and the number of siblings, and 229 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: he came back around and sort of pushed it back 230 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: out into the realm of oh, birth order super important. 231 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: So I think still, if you get a bunch of 232 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: psychologists in a room, it would be hard to draw 233 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: one clear consensus among all of them about how important 234 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: birth order is. We'll just tell me when that's going 235 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: to happen, and I'm just gonna not come into work 236 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: that day because I don't want to be judged by 237 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: the room full of relative That does sound stressful, But 238 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: the thing is there have been so many studies and 239 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: there's still so many studies looking into these birth order dynamics. 240 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: And the research particularly on middle children is especially compel 241 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: because they're kind of head scratchers in a lot of ways. 242 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: And so let's dig more into the science of the 243 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: middle child, shall we? And we'll talk more about that 244 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. So 245 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: all of this research, this back and forth on birth 246 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: order in general and middle children specifically, like Kristen said, 247 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: it's had its ups and downs. People have thought it 248 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: was gospel, people have thought it was nothing but like 249 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: the same type of bunk that astrology is that people 250 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: just want to read about themselves and and and whatnot. 251 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: But we have to mention out of all of this 252 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: the stereotypes that people hold of middle children. And I 253 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: feel like before we do this, we should just apologize 254 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: to the middle children listening, who probably are very familiar 255 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: with the stereotypes. Often middle children are cast as being confused, underachieving, 256 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: overshadowed by their older and younger siblings, and overlooked by parents. Right, 257 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: but um, some positive things have come out of being 258 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: a middle child, according to researchers. Stereotypically and and very generally, 259 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: children who were born in the middle have a tendency 260 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: to roll with things pretty easily. They're more easy going, 261 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: they're flexible to handle disappointments better. And the big thing 262 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: you always read is that middle children are negotiators. They're 263 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: good at seeing both sides of an argument, and they 264 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: just want peace and quiet in the family. Yeah, and 265 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: another big thing you also hear about is that they 266 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: are super social and almost like friendship specialists. Because the 267 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: thinking goes, they receive less parental attention and have to 268 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: look elsewhere for connections. And there was a two thousand 269 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: three study looking at middle children and relationships, and it 270 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: did in fact support the idea that middle children into 271 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: value friends over family and are usually less helpful in families, 272 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: probably because they're like, well, nobody's helping me. Oh, but 273 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: then now I'm just guilty just then of middle child stereotyping, uh, 274 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: youngest whatever. Well, so what plays into all of these 275 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: personality traits, whether they're simply stereotypes or whether they are 276 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: true for you in your life, has a lot to 277 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: do with family dynamics, and so psychologist Katherine Salmon, who 278 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: along with Shuman, was the co author of The Secret 279 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: Power of Middle Children, talks about that whole sort of 280 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: being ignored an independent thing which leads to being good 281 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: at negotiating, talking about how middle kids are often marching 282 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: to the beat of their own drums, setting themselves apart 283 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: from their older and younger siblings, and she says that 284 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: without the parental support that the youngest enjoys, because the 285 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: youngest in a fight has a tendency to circumvent the 286 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: oldest and appeal straight to the parents never and they 287 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: also don't enjoy the authority that the oldest child has 288 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: they have to get very good at that negotiating, figuring 289 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: out what the other person wants and needs, and then 290 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: managing to get them what they want in addition to 291 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: what they themselves want. Yeah. And another thing that Human 292 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: and Salomon talk about in the book is I mean, 293 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: because as you can imagine from the title The Secret 294 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: Power of Middle Children, they're very pro middle children. They 295 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: kind of take the lemons and make lemonade. So, for instance, 296 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: they say that actually receiving less parental attention, as middle 297 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: children often do, they you can use that to their 298 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: advantage to have a sense of independence. Because with the firstborn, 299 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: obviously the parents are like, oh my god, we have 300 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: to do everything to make sure we don't somehow break 301 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: this baby and blah blah blah. And then by the 302 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: time you get to the second child, you've done it already, 303 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: so like, oh, well, you know, and of eat dirt, 304 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: you can cook your own dinner, Sam, baby, I know 305 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: you can't reach the stove, but give it a shot. Um. 306 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: So perhaps this allows them to just be better at 307 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: fending for themselves and thinking outside of the box a 308 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: little bit more. So maybe it's a good thing. Yeah, 309 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: and of course gender matters too. I mean, obviously it 310 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: matters if we look back at Galton and Adler's research 311 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: and how Galton just totally freaking discounted women and so 312 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: did society. While Galton is also eugenicist, so a perfect man, 313 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: he was not. That's true, But I think it's interesting 314 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: to point out that if the middle child is a 315 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: different gender than the older and younger siblings, the quote 316 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: unquote middle child syndrome does not typically affect him or her. 317 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: And so that's why I'm interested to watch my baby 318 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: cousins grow up, because the oldest sibling and the youngest 319 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: sibling are both adorable boys, and the middle sibling is 320 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: an adorable little girl with I just she's just such 321 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: a firecracker. I love her so much. But I'll be 322 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: in used to see how they grow up, because so far, 323 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: it really does seem like they're following a very stereotypical pattern, oh, 324 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: of her being very much a middle child, of her 325 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: being very like independent and freewheeling. The oldest is like 326 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: very good at school, he is very responsible, you know, 327 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: police sports, he's towing the line. He's, you know, good kid. 328 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: And then the youngest is just wacky. Yeah, the idea 329 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: of how gender plays whether you are the firstborn of 330 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: your gender in a family makes total sense to looking 331 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: at my sister's family. For instance, she had three boys, 332 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: and by the time her last pregnancy came around, she 333 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: and my brother in law really wanted a girl. Not 334 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: that they don't love their sons two bits, but they 335 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: really want a girl. And so she's not only the 336 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: youngest but also the first girl. So in a way, 337 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: she's getting the double typical overindulgence of the youngest child, right, 338 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: because if you do have an oldest boy, for instance, 339 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: and then you or maybe a couple of boys, and 340 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: then a girl, like like with your sister, you know, 341 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: her first are like the first you know, her first 342 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: dance recital, her first like you know, pair of cute 343 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: pink shoes like these are all firsts that are celebrated 344 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: the way that they would be for a first child. 345 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: It's just that it's a different gender and so things 346 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: are new well. And that speaks to how the dynamic 347 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: of family size can also play into this, because I 348 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: would imagine that for smaller families probably doesn't make as 349 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: much of a difference, but if you have a larger 350 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: brood than you know, wanting like, if you've had a 351 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: lot of sons or you've had a lot of daughters, 352 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: that firstborn, you know, whichever one you're really hoping for, 353 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: is an even bigger deal and might play or might 354 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: make that birth order even more significant, right, And I 355 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: mean talking about siblings specifically, not just parents. Um, there 356 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: was study using data from the Wisconsin Longitudinal Study that 357 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: measured the five main personality characteristics, which include like neuroticism 358 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: and an independence and stuff like that, and they actually 359 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: found that brothers and sisters, regardless of birth order, are 360 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: moderately similar in personality to one another. So yes, while 361 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: birth order and parental attention and things like that are important, 362 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: so is temperament, and so is the way that your 363 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: siblings are. If you so desperately want to be like 364 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: another of your siblings, then you will probably try to 365 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: act that way to or get that same type of attention. Well, 366 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: and I think it also makes a difference who is 367 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: next in line above you, whether it is you know, 368 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: in my case, the next oldest is a sister, and 369 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: I think that our dynamic would have played out much 370 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: differently if it had been a brother, because as two 371 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: sisters or two brothers, a lot of competition can happen 372 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: um and again, this is when it gets into the 373 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: realm of so many correlations that you can start to 374 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: draw as you just switch up all the different possible 375 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: family dynamics. But moving out of the family and looking 376 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: at how birth order effects potentially romantic relationships is also 377 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: fascinating because I would say with this one, it seems 378 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 1: like a lot of the studies that we looked at 379 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: were pretty clear cut in how they related middle children 380 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: and their dating style, which is not entirely positive, right, 381 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: I mean, Kristen, you said the word competition. If we 382 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: look at jealousy. This is a study by the way 383 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: from the North American Journal of Psychology from back in 384 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and they found that firstborn's firstborn 385 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: children in romantic relationships tested out as the least jealous 386 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: in relationships, whereas middle children were the most elis now, 387 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: what is it with that? They found that this is 388 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: because the middle child is stereotypically in the house, always 389 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: the child who is in the most competition for attention, 390 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: and they can end up feeling slighted or out of place, 391 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: and so their jealousy issues the researchers say might not 392 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: be fully resolved and possibly might carry over into adult relationships. 393 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: And apparently this is a very al Darian view of 394 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: how the birth order can affect your personality. So this 395 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: is kind of the the old school birth order psychology 396 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: at work here. But there have been other studies on 397 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: top of this finding that middle children have the highest 398 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: percentage of what's called insecure attachment. UM. We've talked about 399 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: before in the podcast about how people tend to have 400 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: different sorts of relationship attachment styles. So usually the most 401 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: positive would be considered secure attachment, where you're like, hey, 402 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 1: you're maboo and I love you and this is school 403 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: and I'm secure in your love for me. I bet 404 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: you read the best Valentine. Yeah, my my boyfriend feels 405 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: romanced always, I could tell you. But then with insecure attachment, 406 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: this is I mean, it is what it sounds like. 407 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: There's usually a lot of anxiety at work within relationships. 408 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: These are the people who tend to text more often, 409 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: for instance, tech texts there, they're paramorees more often, UM, 410 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: tend to be more jealous, etcetera. Right, Well, yeah, because 411 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: jealousy is tied really closely to that insecure attachment, and 412 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: so middle children. I don't know, but I wonder though 413 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: if that plays into another study we found which shows 414 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: that people of the same birth order tend to pair up. 415 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: So middle children are likelier to day middle children. My 416 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: my boyfriend also a youngest child. I don't know. Interesting, Yeah, 417 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: I would almost feel like two if if we're going 418 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: just off of stereotypes here people, all right, let's do it, 419 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: I would think that two middle children would be totally 420 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: combustible and not a great match. If we're talking about 421 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: two really jealous people, like they might be stuck at 422 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: the hip to each other, but only because they don't 423 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: trust each other. They're just texting each other, but standing 424 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: like back to back. What are you doing? Who are 425 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: you looking at? We're speaking ingest and very stereotypically right now, 426 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: let me let me say that again. But anyway, when 427 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: we look at attitudes toward love, whether they are more 428 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: on the pragmatic side or more on the googly mushy side, 429 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: the oldest child was found to be the most realistic 430 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: of the group, followed by the middle and then the 431 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: only and then the youngest. Okay, sure, but you also 432 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: have to keep in mind that in general, researchers say 433 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: as you age, you your your outlook on love, your 434 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: attitude about love becomes more realistic, more pragmatic. The just 435 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: because you've been there, done that, scene it, you know, 436 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: heard it, all of that stuff, so that that kind 437 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: of makes sense. Yeah, you also found some compelling research 438 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: on love styles and how that relates to birth order. 439 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: And I've never heard of this before. The Luttuce love style. Yeah. 440 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: So there are a bunch of different types of love styles. 441 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: They include arrows, which is erotic love, agape which is 442 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: more of the love for all mankind, the giving, unselfish 443 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: type of love, a lot of people associated with like 444 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: Christian love. Um. But so the middle child was associated 445 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: with this Lettuce style of love, which is interesting. And 446 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: here's why. So the middle child has the highest mean 447 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: for jealousy. Right, we already talked about that. In the 448 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: Lettuce type of love is a game playing type of lover. 449 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: So in this style of love, people enjoy love, they 450 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: like it, but they never allow it to become necessary. 451 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: Let us, lovers tend to approach love more casually, so 452 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: they wouldn't likely be jealous. What if I don't know 453 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: what's going on? With that conflicting research probably evidence that 454 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: a lot of this should be taken with a grain 455 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: of salt. It sounds like, right, I really feel like 456 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: you and I could sit here and discuss how both 457 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: of those is right. How a middle child could be 458 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: more jealous of the attention that his or her siblings received, 459 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, or could be this lettuce style lover because 460 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: oh well, I wasn't given attention, so I don't want 461 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: to attach to anyone. Or they could be super casual 462 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: and laid back about it because they are so social 463 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: and are so good with interpersonal relationships anyway, because they 464 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: tend to prefer friends over family. Apparently that they would 465 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: make super great you know, they'd be great at dating 466 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: because they could just meet people in form relationships, but 467 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: are kind of like chill about it. So I don't 468 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: know what we we need to ask our listeners for sure, 469 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: to tell us about their their live styles. Yeah. But 470 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: one thing in all of the studies conducted on birth 471 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: order and specifically on middle children, that I couldn't find 472 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: I was driving me bonkers, was the cultural history of 473 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: this so called middle child syndrome. Because, like we mentioned, 474 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: when it starts out with adler being a middle child 475 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be a bad thing. They're positive personality 476 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: traits associated with being middle children. We don't really hear 477 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: about them that much. When did we culturally recast middle 478 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: children as these just awkward kids? I don't know. Well, 479 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: I have one theory for you. It was the one 480 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: theory that I could find, and I bought it to 481 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: an extent because when I think of the stereotypical middle 482 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: child in pop culture as Jan Brady, because there is 483 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: a famous episode of The Brady Bunch where she says 484 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: Marcia Marsha Marcia because she's freaking out about the fact 485 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: that her older and prettier and more popular sister Marcia 486 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: gets all the attention and Jan just wants to be Jan. 487 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: She does. She wants to be her own woman and 488 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: appreciated for who she is, not just Marcia Brady's little sister. 489 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: And so there was an essay I was reading by 490 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: this guy, Matthew c Henry called Generation Jan, and he 491 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: said that he thinks that with Generation X, uh, you know, 492 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: they're growing up in the nineties seventies. This is when 493 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you have TVs in every home 494 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: and probably even multiple TVs, and you also have kids 495 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: plopping down in front of those TVs. And what comes 496 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: on in the seventies The Brady Bunch, and then what 497 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: goes into syndication for the rest of time the Brady Bunch. 498 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: And so one think that the Brady Bunch did, like 499 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: essentially their bread and butter was just focusing in on 500 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: sort of family stereotypes, and Jan was the middle child, 501 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: and so he thinks that planted a seed in our 502 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: cultural brain that the middle child is Jan Brady putting 503 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: on a black wig to try to make herself stand 504 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: out and looking ridiculous and always being like, oh, Jan 505 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: pitied in a way. I guess I should have watched 506 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: The Brady Bunch. I am so surprised to learn that 507 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: you did not watch The Brady Bunch. I watched so 508 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: much Brady Bunch when I was a kid. I didn't. 509 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: I guess I was just watching Garfield and and Peanuts. Yeah. 510 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: I think my parents were just really cool with me 511 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: watching The Brady Bunch all the time because it was 512 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: such a clean show. Yeah, whereas my parents were just 513 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,959 Speaker 1: like I'm sure my parents were the ones who were like, 514 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: cook your own dinner, baby, so not to say that 515 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: Garfield was like the beat from Satanic show. Yes, so 516 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: I'll be curious to hear from listeners whether they have 517 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: any theories to add to this as to when this 518 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: middle child syndrome became a thing, because you google a 519 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: middle child syndrome and there are a million articles and 520 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: new segments on it, but no one talks about where 521 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: it came from. Yeah, and I think it's also, you know, 522 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: important to keep in mind, like I definitely want to 523 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: hear if you feel like you totally fit the middle 524 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: child stereotype and your family dynamics were totally along those 525 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: lines or not, because I think a lot of this 526 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: A lot of the researchers who said, you know, there's 527 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: a lot more aspects to a personality than than where 528 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: you fall in the family. Your temperament, your parents temperament, 529 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: your gender, socio economic status. Perfect instinks. But yeah, and 530 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: so it is almost like an astrology argument, like, yes, 531 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: I tend to fit a lot of the sagittary cious aspects, 532 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: but it's also I found out in therapy I have 533 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: a lot of my personality from my parents. So you know, 534 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: what I think it is is simply the fact that 535 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: we as humans really are just fascinated with ourselves. We 536 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: want to know why we work the way they the 537 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: way we do. So I think it's the same reason 538 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: why you know, people are interested in, say their astrological sign, 539 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 1: or in their birth order, in what their name means, 540 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: and all of these different things, just so that we 541 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: can diagnose ourselves with something. We all just want to 542 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: know if for a normal Yeah, it's just I mean, 543 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the reason why the web MD symptom checker is 544 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: so popular. I've I've almost broken my addiction to that now. 545 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: I just now I just ask other friends questions about 546 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: their issues, and then I immediately am like, wait, that 547 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: sounds familiar, I think, But after this podcast, are you 548 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: worried you're a middle child? No, I'm definitely an only child. 549 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: That's good, that's good steps from the right direction. Well, 550 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: now we want to hear from the middle children listening. 551 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: Like Caroline said, do you feel like you fit the 552 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: mold of the stereotypical middle child? And can anyone tell 553 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: us where the whole middle child syndrome came from? Let 554 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: us know all of your middle children thoughts. Mom Stuff 555 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 556 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: You can also messages on Facebook or tweet us at 557 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast. And we've got a couple of messages 558 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I've got to 559 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: let her hear from Carrie. In response to our series 560 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: on women explorers, she writes, I wanted to mention my 561 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: experience as a solo female traveler in South America. I 562 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: graduated from university with degrees and political science and global studies, 563 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: and I was turned down for a job that I 564 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 1: very much wanted and naively expected to get. Like many 565 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: recent grads, I decided to travel until the job mar 566 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: it looked more promising, and I bought a one way 567 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: ticket to Ecuador. I spent two years saving and did 568 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: my research about cultural norms and safety, and my immediate 569 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: family was very supportive, but responses from others were varied, 570 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: most commonly, alone, aren't you afraid? Why would you do that? 571 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: Or well, you have to do it now because once 572 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: you have kids, it'll be a lot harder to travel, 573 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: And finally, well you have to travel now because once 574 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: you're married, your husband won't let you go alone. While 575 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: I'm not discovering anything new, the idea of being a 576 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: female solo traveler seems to elicit the same kinds of 577 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: criticisms that female explorers have always faced. I have to 578 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: suspect that men the same position I'm in would be 579 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: considered fun adventurers as opposed to reckless and irresponsible for 580 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: postponing their career and shockingly having children. Since I've moved 581 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: here after traveling for a while, I co founded an 582 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: organic chocolate shop in Cafe with a Peruvian family, and 583 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: the permanently moved here to run the business. Hey, that's 584 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: so cool. I meet women every day from all over 585 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: the world who are traveling alone and who have come 586 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: under criticism from family and friends for going it on 587 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: their own. While life here is culturally quite different for women. No, 588 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: I don't spend every day worrying about being raped and kidnapped, 589 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 1: and I don't have any regrets about not being married 590 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: and having children. So thanks for writing in Carrie, and 591 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 1: best of luck in Ecuador. Well, I have a letter 592 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: here from Holly, and she says it's great to see 593 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: and hear about the women thus far in history who 594 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: have essentially thrown up their arms and did whatever they wanted. 595 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: So what if someone says you can't or that people 596 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: don't do that? Et cetera. Why not that's the only 597 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: question that needs to be answered. While listening to your episode, 598 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think about Mary Anderson, a much 599 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: more recent and fairly unknown explorer. She and her husband 600 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: started the company ari I, which stands for Recreational Equipment, Inc. 601 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: In which I now proudly work for. But she started 602 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: as an avid mountaineer who, along with her husband, wanted 603 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: to get more people out exploring and help them get 604 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: connected a gear and knowledge to assist them. This also 605 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: included her stitching tints by hand in their home while 606 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: their co op was continuing to grow. I've tried to 607 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: do more research on her in their explorations, but haven't 608 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: been able to find much. No, she didn't have any 609 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: major discoveries under her belt, but she's a big staple 610 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: in my mind of a woman who is now over 611 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 1: one years old and still has a great handshake from 612 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: what I hear, who stands for what she believes in 613 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: and pushes forward to expand her knowledge with others and 614 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: nature in mind. So thank you for the awesome story 615 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: about this woman, Holly, and that's Mary Anderson for those 616 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: of you who want to google her, And thanks to 617 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us Mom stuff at how stuffworks 618 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address, and if you want 619 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: to hit us up on social media, you can find 620 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: links to all of those different places, including links to 621 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with all of 622 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: our source citations. So you need to head on over 623 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for more 624 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. 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