1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Before we begin, please be aware this episode contains discussions 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: while listening. 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: They told me that's stirring a lot more destinate. 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 3: I think, did you have any concerns that the glass. 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 4: Arise in Mortality Day? 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: Yes? 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 3: So tell me about what concerns did you. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 4: I think we don't just. 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: Notice till the teenagers and start there discours and last 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 2: competive previous years. 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: I'm watching a short clip from Lucy Leppy's police interrogation. 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: It's not long, but it's hard to watch. What strikes 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: me immediately is how small she seems in the room. 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: She sits quietly, her shoulders rounded, her voice low. She 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: answers questions carefully, not defensively, not forcefully, but with a 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: kind of deference, as if she's already accepted that the 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: people across the table control what happens next. I hesitate 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: even to say that out loud, because I know how 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: dangerous interpretation can be. And I also know that plenty 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: of others convinced of Lucy let Bee's guilt have watched 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: this video and seen a wolf in sheep's clothing. I 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: was called that too, and I can still remember when 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: my own body took on that posture, that sense of 25 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: being trapped inside a process you don't fully understand, where 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: every word feels like it can make things worse. Yeah, 27 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: I mean, watching interrogation videos is not fun for me. 28 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 5: Here you were asking why am I was dressed? I 29 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 5: was scared. It was after long hourity vening, middle of 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 5: the night. I were the innocent. They were telling me 31 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 5: that I was feel. 32 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: My own interrogation began much the way Lucy's did. At first, 33 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: I responded the same way, carefully, dutifully trying to cooperate, 34 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: believing if I was calm, honest, if I just explained 35 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: myself clearly enough, the situation would resolve itself. And then 36 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: as the pressure built, something shifted. They accused me of 37 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: lying repeatedly. I became desperate to be believed, but all 38 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: I could do was repeat the truth, and that never 39 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: seemed to satisfy them. I'm telling you what I know. 40 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: Why don't you believe me? I thought maybe it was 41 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: my bad Italian, that it was my fault. They were 42 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: getting so angry as they get me into doubting my 43 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: own memories, as they threatened me with thirty years in prison. 44 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: As they slapped me, I didn't know what was true 45 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: or not anymore. 46 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: A part of me even began to doubt myself. 47 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: That's where my mind goes when I watch this video 48 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: of Lucy, that feeling that the people asking me questions 49 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: aren't looking for the truth, but for confirmation of a 50 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: guilt they've already assumed. I spoke about Lucy's police interview 51 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: with journalist Rachel Levive, who covered the let Be case 52 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: for The New Yorker. Rachel had spent several weeks reading 53 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: the full transcript, and I wanted to know what she 54 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: made of them. 55 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 6: I could see sort of the disorientation of being accused 56 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 6: of something that felt like a very alien concept, and 57 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 6: just like not knowing how to talk about it. It 58 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 6: was like an incongruous thing in her life that she 59 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 6: had no language for even sort of comprehending how she 60 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 6: had got there. And I think you could see her 61 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 6: when she was in the police interview, just like not 62 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 6: quite getting it and sort of answering but not really 63 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 6: defending herself, just sort of trying to be a good student, 64 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 6: trying to be like an obedient nurse in a way, 65 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 6: and also kind of giving the authorities the benefit of 66 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 6: the doubt, Like she seemed like someone who really did 67 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 6: trust authority, And it was almost as if she was saying, like, 68 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 6: if they think I did something wrong, maybe I really did. 69 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I deeply empathize with that. 70 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 6: That seemed to be the state that she was in 71 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 6: a lot for the police interviews at least, and even 72 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 6: for the trial, sort of like just a sense of 73 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 6: grief that she was finding herself in that position. 74 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: The interrogation room and the courtroom are very different spaces, 75 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: but they are connected. The assumptions formed in one quietly 76 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: set the terms of the other, and it was within 77 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: those terms that the prosecution presented its case. So when 78 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: Lucy let Bee finally took the stand, she wasn't starting 79 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: from zero. She was stepping into a story that had 80 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: already been written about her, and every pause, every careful answer, 81 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: every attempt to explain herself was now filtered through that story, 82 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: not in the interrogation room, but in front of twelve jurors. 83 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: This episode is about how that story was told. I'm 84 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and iHeart Podcasts. This is 85 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: Doubt The Case of Lucy let Be Episode four the prosecution. 86 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: It's October tenth, twenty twenty two. Rain drizzles over Manchester 87 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: Crown Court. Inside the air is heavy. For the first time, 88 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: Lucy letb steps into the court. After three and a 89 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: half years of investigation, thousands of interviews and mountains of evidence, 90 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: police handed their case to the Crown Prosecution Service. Manchester 91 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: Crown Court sits right in the city center, a working 92 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: courthouse built for volume. It's not grand or ceremonial. It's practical, busy, 93 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: the kind of place where life changing things happen in 94 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: rooms that look almost ordinary. 95 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 7: Manchester Crown Court is a relatively modern building. It is 96 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 7: slightly decaying, I have to say, long corridors not particularly 97 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 7: public friendly. 98 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: That's kim pelling again. The journalist who was in the 99 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: court at the time. 100 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 7: It's probably fifteen courtrooms in the building. I was in 101 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 7: Court seven. From my perspective as a reporter, gave you 102 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 7: a very good front, real seat. The stage was all 103 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 7: set in front of you. 104 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: The public gallery is small, seats are scarce. Everyone is 105 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: packed into a room waiting for a trial that comes. 106 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: Nearly seven years after the first alarms were raised. 107 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 7: The public galleries was divided into two sides as you 108 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 7: walked through the entrance. The left hand side where I sat, 109 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 7: maybe I have fifteen or to push. So there was 110 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 7: three four seats available to the press and that was it. 111 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 7: Let Bemum and Dad, John and Sue were on the 112 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 7: right hand side, and then on the other side were 113 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 7: the families of the victims and we were sat in 114 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 7: front of them on the front row of the public gallery, 115 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 7: nearest to the dock. In the well of the court 116 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 7: was the judge, Mister Justice Goss, and then in front 117 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 7: of us were the various lawyers, including the League Council 118 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 7: for the prosecution, Nick Johnson, King's Council and Ben Meyers 119 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 7: for the defense Ben Meyers, King's Council. And then behind 120 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 7: them we had the Charity of twelve. 121 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: And then the defendant, a face most people there knew 122 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: only through photographs printed after her arrest, frozen beneath headlines 123 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: describing the charges she now faced. 124 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 7: There was great anticipation ahead of let be coming into 125 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 7: the stock you were going to see in person, and 126 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 7: of course there's a great curiosity is to her appearance 127 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 7: and how she conveys. 128 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 3: Herself for the first time. 129 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: The jury of four men and eight women were able 130 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: to assess this so called monster for themselves. But for 131 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: Kim at least, what he saw was. 132 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 7: Nothing that stood out, So she wasn't particularly expressive. She 133 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 7: looked tired and strained. It was hard to get a 134 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 7: handle on her from the start. Really, she didn't fit 135 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 7: the characterization of some of the accused of such monstrous crimes, unfortunately, 136 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 7: rather banal realities that they had looked often just like anybody, 137 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 7: any normal person that you just passed the street without thinking. 138 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: The clerk asks her name. Lucy let Be confirms, and 139 00:09:52,880 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: then the charges seven counts of murder, fifteen counts of 140 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: attempted murder. Twenty two times they're read out, and twenty 141 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: two times she replies not guilty. The judge rules all 142 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: twenty two charges are to be tried together. That would 143 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: mean after both opening statements, there would be twenty five 144 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: weeks of prosecution evidence before the defense could even counter. 145 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: For us listeners, you may be interested to know that 146 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: in British courts there are highly experienced senior lawyers who 147 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: are given the title King's Counsel or often shortened to KC, 148 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: with English prosecuting lawyers being part of the Crown prosecution service, 149 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: because theoretically, right at the top of the criminal judicial 150 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: system in Britain is the King. So in every case 151 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: it's always the monarch versus the defendant, and in this 152 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: case it was Rex, you know, like King versus Lucy 153 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: let Be. 154 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 8: As I have already told you, a large quantity of 155 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 8: paperwork from the hospital was recovered. 156 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: What you are hearing now is an actor reading sections 157 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: from the court transcript of Nick Johnson, k C, the 158 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: prosecutor in the case, giving his opening statement. Prosecutors don't 159 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: just present facts, They organize them. They decide what comes first, 160 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: what follows, and how quickly the picture takes shape. Evidence 161 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: is paced, arranged and built over time. So in that 162 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: room the prosecution aren't just presenting evidence, they are telling 163 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: a story. 164 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 8: In addition to the paperwork relating to some of the 165 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 8: children I have told you about and other children, they 166 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 8: also found some other interesting items. 167 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: Nick Johnson's opening ran for ninety four pages, three days 168 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: in court, three days of evidence previewed, themes introduced, and 169 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: a narrative laid carefully into place, and the image Johnson 170 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: chose to end on the one he left ringing in 171 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: the courtroom wasn't medical charts or expert testimony. It was 172 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: a post it note found in Lucy Letbe's home. 173 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 8: There were some post it notes, you know what I mean, 174 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 8: those little yellow tabula notes with closely written words on them, 175 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 8: some of which included the names of her colleagues. On 176 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 8: some of the notes were phrases like why, how has 177 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 8: this happened? What process has led to this current situation? 178 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 8: What allegations have been made? And by whom do they 179 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 8: have retch evidence to support their comments. In her writings, 180 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 8: she expressed frustration at the fact that she wasn't being 181 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 8: allowed back onto the neonatal unit, and she wrote, I 182 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 8: haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence, so 183 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 8: why have I had to hide away? And her notes 184 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 8: also expressed concern for the long term effects of what 185 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 8: she feared was being alleged against her. There are also 186 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 8: many protestations of innocence, but I want to show you 187 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 8: one note in particular. There's all sorts of material on 188 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 8: this document, but just where that gross is now, just 189 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 8: to the right of that, it says I don't deserve 190 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 8: to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not 191 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 8: good enough to take care of them. I am a horrible, 192 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 8: evil person. At the bottom, I am evil. I did this. Well, 193 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 8: ladies and gentlemen, that, in a nutshell is your task 194 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 8: in this case. You have to decide on the evidence 195 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 8: whether she did do these things or any of them. 196 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 8: It is important to remember that the prosecution brings this 197 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 8: case and therefore we, the prosecution, must prove it. And 198 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 8: in order to prove it, we must make you sure. 199 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 8: Thank you, my lord. 200 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: Here's kim pelling again. 201 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 7: The posit notes were, yeah, I'd said, they were a 202 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 7: key moment in that. I think it was purposefully done 203 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 7: to sort of say, I'm finally to the jury. We've 204 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 7: given you all this information as to how we think 205 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 7: she's the killer on the unit. And it is a 206 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 7: little bit more so, that's a very striking visual piece 207 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 7: of evidence for the jury. So we got that very 208 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 7: early on, and of course you look at that and 209 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 7: you think, ah, well, this could be game over already. Here. 210 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 7: You know, this person's literally confessed to what she done. 211 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: By the time the prosecution finished its opening, the tone 212 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: of the trial had already been set before the jury 213 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: heard a single doctor, before a single scan or blood 214 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: result was put on screen. The question of what that 215 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: note meant, a confession or a fragment of despair twisted 216 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: into evidence would be argued later, but for now, this 217 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: was the frame through which the jury would begin to 218 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: hear months of dense medical evidence, timelines, collapses, charts, and 219 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: expert opinion, not in a vacuum, but under the shadow 220 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: of words already hanging in the room. I am evil. 221 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 3: I did this. 222 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: Along with the handwritten notes recovered from Lucy Leppy's home, 223 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: the prosecution would go on to present a wide range 224 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: of other evidence. They placed text messages and social media 225 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: activity alongside events on the neonatal unit, time stamped exchanges 226 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: that sometimes read like real time commentary and were used 227 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: to suggest how Lucy reassured her colleagues that sudden collapses 228 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: were simply natural deteriorations. In an attempt to deflect suspicion. 229 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: One of these text messages, Lucy wrote, it was the 230 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: hardest thing I've ever had to do. Just a big 231 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: shock for us, all hard coming in tonight and seeing 232 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: the parents XX. An exchange between one colleague read we 233 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: lost baby D, to which her colleague replies, what, but 234 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: she was improving? What happened? Wanta chat? I can't believe 235 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: you were on again. You're having such a tough time. 236 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: In another exchange, a colleague wonders, what's happening on the unit. 237 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: There's something odd about that night and the other three 238 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: that went so suddenly. Lucy replies, well, baby C was tiny, 239 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: obviously compromised in utero, BABYD septic. 240 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: It's baby A. I can't get my head around. 241 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: The jury was also shown a chart that the Crown 242 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: said revealed that let Be was the one constant presence 243 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: across the deaths and collapses, including a shift from incidents 244 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: happening overnight to happening during the day once Lucy's own 245 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: shift patterns changed. But central to the case were the 246 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: medical records themselves. These medical records were used to establish 247 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: the baby's conditions before and after each collapse, to argue 248 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: that some recoveries were two it was sudden to be natural, 249 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: and to allege that notes and timings had been altered 250 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: to distance Lucy let Be from critical moments. The prosecution 251 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: then laid out the different mechanisms by which they alleged 252 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: harm had been done. 253 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: There was so many different ways that they said that 254 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: let Bey had killed or harmed these babies, which in 255 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: itself was strange to begin with. 256 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: Sarah Napton, science editor for the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph, 257 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: was following the trial closely. 258 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: But they said she had, over a period of over 259 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, had been purposely inflicting harmon 260 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 2: babies in various ways. In some cases, they said she 261 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 2: had injected air into their bloodstream, which caused a blockage 262 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: en anati stable item and they went into cardiako restident 263 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 2: some of them died. In other cases, they said she 264 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 2: injected air into the stomach, which that has the effect 265 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 2: of making the stomach in large, and then that pushes 266 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: up into the diaphragm, which is controlling the lungs coming 267 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 2: in and out. So if the diaphragms constricted and can't 268 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: sutly pumped the lungs, then the baby can't get a 269 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: toxic generic and it collapses. In other cases, they said 270 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: she'd put insulin into feedbacks so that the babies had 271 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 2: too much insulin. There was another case where they said 272 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: she dislodged the tube of a baby, another case where 273 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 2: she'd injected milk into the baby's stomach to cause it 274 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 2: to vomit and destabilize. There was another incident when they 275 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: said she smothered the baby. 276 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: In most serial murder trials, the prosecution points to a 277 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: single consistent method orm O. Here they were asking the 278 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: jury to accept seven different mechanisms of harm, from insulin 279 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: poisoning in two babies, air injected into the bloodstream of others, 280 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: physical interference with breathing, and in so cases, a method 281 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: they said had never before been described, forcing air into 282 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: baby's stomachs until they could no longer breathe. 283 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 3: It was a. 284 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: Theory that had no clear precedent in the medical literature, 285 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: and one that some doctors unconnected to the case said 286 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: that they had never encountered. But the Crown's expert witnesses 287 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: told the jury it was possible and that it had happened. 288 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: Here the jury would hear from dozens of witnesses, not 289 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: just experts, but also nurses, doctors, and parents, But one 290 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: voice would become the spine of the medical case, and 291 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: he was the first expert witness called. Here are actors 292 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: reading court transcripts, Could. 293 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 8: You please state your full name. 294 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 9: Dr Evans, Dr Dewwie Richard Fans. 295 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 8: Thank you. You are I understand a consultant pediatrician. I 296 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 8: am Could you please inform the jury when you first 297 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 8: qualified medically. 298 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 9: I qualified from the Welsh National School of Medicine in 299 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,959 Speaker 9: nineteen seventy one and carried out my first pediatric post 300 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 9: eighteen months later. 301 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: Now, as you may recall from earlier episodes, doctor Evans 302 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: or the Welsh Wizard, had never treated any of the 303 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: babies in this case. He had never worked at the 304 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: Countess of Chester Hospital. He was actually retired and had 305 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: reached out to police to volunteer himself as an expert 306 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: witness in this case. But his role was different. Doctor 307 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: Evans was there to look backward, to read the medical notes, 308 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: reconstruct collapses and tell the jury what those records meant, What, 309 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: in his opinion, could explain what had happened to these 310 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: babies and what could not. 311 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 8: Having passed through the various stages of training, could you 312 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 8: confirm that you later became a National Health Service clinical 313 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 8: consultant pediatrician. 314 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 9: Yes, I was appointed consultant pediatrician in Swansea in nineteen. 315 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: Eighty Before any individual child was discussed, Before any allegation 316 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: was examined, the court spent hours establishing who he was, 317 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: his decades in neonatology, his role building intensive care services, 318 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: his long experience as an expert witness in criminal and 319 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: family courts. This mattered because from this point on, much 320 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: of what the jury would hear about how these babies died, 321 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 1: whether their collapses were natural, accidental, or deliberate, would be 322 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: filtered through doctor Evans's conclusions. He wasn't just another witness, 323 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: He was the lens, and as the prosecution made clear, 324 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: they were asking the jury to trust that lens, case 325 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: by case, baby by baby as the medical foundation of 326 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: everything that would follow. The prosecution began with Baby A, 327 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: a premature infant who collapsed and died shortly after birth. 328 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: The allegation was air embolism, air entering the bloodstream. 329 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 2: So essentially, an air embolism is where a pocket of 330 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: air and air bubble is injected into a vane on 331 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: the body and things need to run freely so that 332 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 2: oxygen the blood can run to the heart and the 333 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: lungs and everything gets oxygen into that and then gets 334 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: the brain. If you have an air bubble in that system, 335 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: as you can imagine, it's basically forming a little buckage, 336 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: and that can cause no problem with the brain. It 337 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: can cause problem with the heart. 338 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: Here's actors again, reading court transcripts of doctor Evans's testimony 339 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: about Baby A's possible cause of death. 340 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 8: Yes, finally, on baby A, please, doctor Evans. The means 341 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 8: by which air could have been inserted into a baby's 342 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 8: circulation from what you know of the way in which 343 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 8: Baby A was being treated, What are the possibilities? 344 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 9: Well, there are only two really, sorry, there's only one. Really. 345 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 9: The air would have gone through an intravenous line, and 346 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 9: that can only occur in two ways, accidentally or on purpose, 347 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 9: and that's it. Some time ago I obtained a copy 348 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 9: of all the intravenous bits and pieces of equipment used 349 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 9: at the Chester hospital, which we're all familiar with. We're 350 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 9: all familiar with these lines from visiting people in hospital, 351 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 9: an intravenous bag line. I won't go through the whole bit, 352 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 9: but doctors, nurses, we're so obsessive about ensuring that air 353 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 9: does not get into the system. You know, we're absolutely 354 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 9: obsessive about it and always have been. And it's much 355 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 9: better now than so. Having rigged up the system that 356 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 9: was used in Chester, and it's in a room in 357 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 9: this court, in this building, so we could demonstrate it 358 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 9: if necessary, I rigged it all up. There's no way 359 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 9: air could have got into baby A by accident. You know, 360 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 9: the fail safe systems, the monitoring, the alarm setups which 361 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 9: have been present for you know, a couple of decades. 362 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 9: I suppose ensures that this is not something that can 363 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 9: occur accidentally. 364 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, no ambiguity, no alternative explanation offered. The problem 365 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: with air embolism is that it leaves no DNA. It's 366 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: hard to prove. But here doctor Evans was pointing to 367 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: a red flag all over the baby's skin. 368 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: Dr Dowie Evans based his confusion of air embolism on 369 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 2: a skin rush, largely so in many of the babies. 370 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: There was a splitting pink rush that is recorded in 371 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 2: some cases and the doctors talk about it in other 372 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: cases which had its mottled appearance, and it came and 373 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 2: went and they said it was evidence of our embolism. Now, 374 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: one of the papers, or pretty much the only paper 375 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 2: they based that on, was a paper by a very 376 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 2: very eminent ponetologist and Canada called doctor shoe Lee's. 377 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: Now remember the name doctor shoe Lee because his paper 378 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: and what he has to say about it will later 379 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: become vitally important. But for Now, doctor Evans was very 380 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: keen on emphasizing the importance of this study to the jury. 381 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Evans argue is that the paper supports what the 382 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: doctor is at the hospital suspected that these types of 383 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: rashes are indicative of an air embolism. 384 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 9: So therefore what we've got here is bright pink vessels 385 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 9: against the generalely cyanosed cutaneous, you know, relating to the skin. 386 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 9: So the fact that it's bright pink, now that is remarkable. 387 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 9: It's very unusual. It shouldn't be pink, you know. Or 388 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 9: if it's pink, why has the baby collapsed? It doesn't 389 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 9: make sense. Their interpretation is absolutely correct. 390 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: Then there was baby E. Baby E had died of 391 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: gastro intestinal bleeding. Doctor Evans was not asked to name 392 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: a precise cause. He was asked something narrower, whether there 393 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: was any evidence this could have happened naturally. 394 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 9: There is no evidence at all that this was a 395 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 9: natural phenomenon. It is not something I have ever seen 396 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 9: in my decades of neonatology and hands on clinical practice. 397 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: Again, certainty, not unlikely, not rare, not unexplained. In doctor 398 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: Evans's view, impossible to attribute to nature. This was the 399 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: pattern the prosecution established case by case, sudden collapse, no 400 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: natural explanation, expert opinion that deliberate harm was the only answer. 401 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: Over the months that followed, doctor Evans was recalled repeatedly, 402 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: each time addressing a different baby and a different cause 403 00:28:54,680 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: of death. If the medical evidence alone wasn't enough to 404 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: convince the jury, it didn't. 405 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: Stand on its own. 406 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: Alongside the expert testimony came stories from doctors, nurses, hospital managers, 407 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: and parents. Accounts of moments that felt wrong, of sudden collapses, 408 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: of patterns noticed only in hindsight, of suspicions that grew 409 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: quietly then hardened. One of the most striking came from 410 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: doctor Robb Jayram. 411 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 3: He told the. 412 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: Jury about the early hours of February seventeenth, twenty sixteen, 413 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: when he went to check on baby k. He said 414 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: that when he entered the nursery, he saw Lucy letb 415 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: quote standing by the incubator and the ventilator. Doctor Jayram 416 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: testified that the infant's blood oxygen levels were in the 417 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: eighties and falling, and that mislet Be was doing nothing 418 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: to respond. It was a moment the prosecution returned to 419 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: again and again. A still image frozen in time, a 420 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: doctor's interpretation of inaction presented as intent. But arguably the 421 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: most emotionally powerful testimony came from the parents. The mother 422 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: of baby D told Manchester Crown Court about being pushed 423 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: into the neonatal unit and noticing a nurse nearby. 424 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 3: Quote. 425 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: I was pushed into the neonatal unit. She was sort 426 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: of hovering around my baby but not doing much. She 427 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: had a clipboard to take notes and she was sort 428 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: of looking at a machine, but I didn't understand what 429 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: she was doing. When she asked if everything was okay 430 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: she said, The response was calm, stating I asked if 431 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: everything was okay, and she said yes, she's I would 432 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: have expected her to leave us, but she just stuck 433 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: around and was sort of just watching, looking over us. 434 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to tell her to go away, to give 435 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: us some privacy. That idea of hovering of watching was 436 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: seized on by the prosecution. 437 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 3: These moments mattered. 438 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: They didn't prove how the babies died, They didn't explain 439 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: mechanisms or causes, but they did something else. They gave 440 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: the prosecution's case human weight. They turned timelines and charts 441 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: into lived experience, and for the jury. Grief did what 442 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: evidence alone sometimes can't. It made the story feel real. 443 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: In essence, what the jury heard was a web of 444 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence, professional judgment layered on professional judgment, each account 445 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: reinforcing the last, and all of it arrived in a 446 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: courtroom where the jury went home every night. In the UK, 447 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: juries are not sequestered. They're instructed not to read coverage, 448 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: not to search the case, but they're still living inside 449 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: the same media environment as everyone else. Headlines had been written, 450 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: narratives had been established. By the time this trial began, 451 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: Lucy Letby was already known to the public as the 452 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: nurse accused of murdering babies. The prosecution didn't need to 453 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: introduce that context. 454 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 3: It was already there. 455 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: And yet, for all of this, the testimony, the timelines, 456 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: the suspicions, there was still a conspicuous absence at the 457 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: center of the case. No one ever testified to seeing 458 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: Lucy let Be harm a baby, no eyewitnesses, no moment 459 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: where someone could say I saw her do this. What 460 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: remained then was the authority of expertise. Because here's the thing. 461 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: The prosecution didn't rely on one expert. They called seven 462 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: seven medical experts brought in to interpret collapses, rashes, blood results, patterns, 463 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: and to tell the jury why those things were important. 464 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: And the defense they didn't call a single medical expert, 465 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: not one. The only external person who testified on Lucy 466 00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: let Bey's behalf was a hospital plumber. That's it, in 467 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 1: a trial that lasted ten months. We will look into 468 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: why this might have been in future episodes, but for now, 469 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: what's important to note is that imbalance. It mattered, not 470 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: just legally but psychologically, because when science is complex and 471 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: explanations are hard to follow, numbers can begin to stand 472 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 1: in for certainty. 473 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 4: So there was layer upon layer of gosh, how can 474 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 4: she possibly be innocent? Amongst all this, seven experts appeared 475 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 4: for the prosecution, none appeared for the defense, and seven 476 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 4: doctors who worked at the hospital stood up and said, 477 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 4: we think she's guilty. So there were fourteen medical experts 478 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 4: who said she was guilty, so purely on the numbers, 479 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 4: you know, as sometimes in a jury 're baffled by 480 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 4: all the science, and it was complicated. But if you 481 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 4: think this is fourteen zero, you got fourteen experts up 482 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 4: here think she's guilty zero speaking up for it. 483 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: Next time, I'm on Doubt the Case of Lucy Letbie. 484 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 8: No direct evidence of Lucy doing anything wrong. In fact, 485 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 8: the opposite. 486 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 4: The thing that was a big red flag for me 487 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 4: as a doctor about delwy Evans, who's the lead prosecution expert, 488 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 4: is his certainty. 489 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 10: He's not a lawyer. He shouldn't be about winning and Lucy. 490 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 10: He's about giving his expert opinion. But he's never lost 491 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 10: a case, so he's a hired gun really for the prosecution. 492 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: Doubt The Case of Lucy Letbe is brought to you 493 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: by Vespucci, iHeart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been 494 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: your host Amanda Knox. This episode was written and produced 495 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: by Natalia Rodriguez. The co producer was Lucy Ditchmont. The 496 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: assistant producer was Amy Gill. The sound designer is Tom Biddle. 497 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: The theme music was written by Tom Biddle. Voice acting 498 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: by Paul Leaming and David Charles, story editing by Kathleen Goldheard. 499 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at 500 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. 501 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 3: The executive producers. 502 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: Were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin. And 503 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: Johnny Galvin, thank you for listening.