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Speaker 3: And get it gets to be there at AXS dot com.

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Speaker 4: Hey Daniel, how do you feel about breaking the laws

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Speaker 4: of physics?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Boy, that needs some context. It really depends.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, on whether you have a good physics lawyer

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Speaker 4: to back you up.

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Speaker 1: It really depends on which law you're going to break.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you might get a misdemeanor. In some cases,

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Speaker 1: you might even end up with a felon.

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Speaker 4: Really, there's a range here, all right. So then what's

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Speaker 4: the equivalent of gaining life in prison for physics jail?

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Speaker 1: I think they put you in a room with a cartoonist.

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Speaker 4: They're for the worst defenders, really, but really, but when

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Speaker 4: you hear about an idea that breaks a law of physics,

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Speaker 4: even if it's a big one, are you hoping it's

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Speaker 4: true or are you hoping it's wrong?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, anytime somebody claims to disprove Einstein, I

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Speaker 1: get pretty skeptical because that's been tested a lot. But

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Speaker 1: in my heart of hearts, I'm really hoping that someone

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Speaker 1: disproves a big law of physics, like relativity. I mean

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Speaker 1: that that's how we learn something new about the universe.

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Speaker 4: That's a good spin. I think I'll hire you as

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Speaker 4: my physics lawyer.

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Speaker 1: In that case, you're going to go to physics jail

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Speaker 1: because I am not a good physics lawyer.

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Speaker 4: I am Rhem, a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist. And I once

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Speaker 1: thought I wanted to be a lawyer, and then I

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Speaker 1: got argued out of it.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Wow, history almost went a different way for you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was big into debate in high school and I

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Speaker 1: liked arguing, or I thought I liked arguing. I did

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Speaker 1: a lot of it. But then I discovered that, you know,

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Speaker 1: in debate there's sort of never really any truth. You

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Speaker 1: can just persuade people of anything.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And in the end, I liked physics because it had

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Speaker 1: a hard, nuggative objectivity at its core.

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Speaker 4: Like I want certainty, just like in quantum physics where

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Speaker 4: everything's for sure and there's no fuzzyness.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want objectivity. You know, the universe comes down

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Speaker 1: on one side or the other. That you try the

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Speaker 1: experiment and it either works or it fails. You can't

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Speaker 1: persuade somebody something's right if the experiments say no.

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Speaker 4: At least in a probabilistic kind of sense, right through certainty. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: all right, well, we are certainly starting our podcast, Daniel

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Speaker 4: and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we talk about all the amazing things certain

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Speaker 1: and un certain about the universe, the things that we

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Speaker 1: know and the things that we do not yet know,

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Speaker 1: the things that work, and the things that we are

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Speaker 1: still working on. Our goal in this podcast is to

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Speaker 1: educate you about everything that science understands, everything that science

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Speaker 1: is still working on, and everything that human beings wonder about.

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Speaker 4: That's right, all the things that are possible out there

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Speaker 4: in this big, beautiful universe of ours, and also maybe

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Speaker 4: all of the things that are impossible in this universe,

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Speaker 4: things that cannot be or that we maybe wish they

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Speaker 4: could be.

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Speaker 1: And history is filled with examples of scientists saying something

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Speaker 1: is impossible and then somebody coming along and proving them wrong.

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Speaker 1: So one of the most fun experience in science is

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Speaker 1: pushing that boundaries, developing something new, is understanding the universe

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Speaker 1: at a deeper level and figuring out something that we

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Speaker 1: thought was impossible, and maybe even giving us a tool

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Speaker 1: to explore the universe.

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Speaker 4: It's right because you know, sometimes some of the biggest

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Speaker 4: ideas in physics have been they thought that they were impossible.

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Speaker 4: You know, like when quantum physics first came out, people

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Speaker 4: thought were like, that's a crazy why would nature be

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Speaker 4: like that? Right? Even Einstein thought it was kind of impossible.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Sometimes you have to change your perspective and

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Speaker 1: open your mind to something totally new. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: sometimes the universe is just hard and cold and it

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Speaker 1: says no to your idea.

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Speaker 4: It's impossible to deal with this universe. But yeah, So

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Speaker 4: today on the podcast, we'll be talking about one such

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Speaker 4: idea which today sounds kind of impossible. In fact, it

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Speaker 4: has impossible in its brand name.

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Speaker 1: Are we talking about impossible burgers?

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Speaker 4: Ooh, that sounds delicious, That sounds impossible to resist.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because one struggle plaguing humanity's desire to explore

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Speaker 1: the universe is just physically getting out there into the universe.

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Speaker 1: The universe is frustratingly, amazingly, beautifyingly vast and enormous, which

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Speaker 1: makes it difficult to explore. And so to get out there,

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Speaker 1: to get to a neighboring star, to find those aliens,

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Speaker 1: to visit black holes and unravel the secrets of general

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Speaker 1: relativity and quantum Can we need a device, a drive

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Speaker 1: that could actually get us there?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe we need an impossible idea to solve a

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Speaker 4: seemingly impossible problem. And so today on the podcast, we'll

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Speaker 4: be asking the question what is the impossible drive? And

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Speaker 4: is it possible? Possibly in a possible kind of way.

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Speaker 4: This is a very certain podcast episode here today, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible the impossible drive? May possibly be possible?

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Speaker 4: While eating an impossible burger and watching Mission Impossible with

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Speaker 4: Tom Cruise.

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Speaker 1: That does sound like an impossible combination of things to

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Speaker 1: pull off all that once.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, so this is kind of a crazy idea.

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Speaker 4: I have to say, I had not heard of this

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Speaker 4: before getting your notes this morning, and so this is

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Speaker 4: all sort of an idea to solve the problem of

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Speaker 4: how to get across space, like how to get to

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Speaker 4: distant stars without having to bring a whole bunch of

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Speaker 4: fuel with you.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because there's just a basic problem in getting

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Speaker 1: to those stars. Like you want to get to those stars,

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Speaker 1: they are really far away, all right, So to get

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Speaker 1: really far away, you have to get going really really fast.

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Speaker 1: And to get going really fast, you need an engine,

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Speaker 1: something that's going to push you. And the current rockets

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Speaker 1: that we have you require a lot of fuel. So

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Speaker 1: you can do like a pretty simple calculation and ask,

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Speaker 1: like how much rocket fuel would it take to accelerate

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Speaker 1: a very very small object, you know, something like a

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Speaker 1: toothpick up to I don't know, five percent of the

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Speaker 1: speed of light, really, the kind of speed that would

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Speaker 1: make it take like only one hundred years to get

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Speaker 1: to Alpha Centauri.

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Speaker 4: Wow, so my spacecraft was just a toothpick zero point

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Speaker 4: one grams, how much fuel would it take to get

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Speaker 4: it to Alpha Centauri within like one hundred years?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the problem is that your spaceship is not

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Speaker 1: just a toothpick. It's a toothpick plus all the fuel, Right,

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Speaker 1: your fuel has to push the fuel you're gonna need

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Speaker 1: in the future. And so if the payload is just

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Speaker 1: a toothpick. Then most of your rocket ship is actually fuel,

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Speaker 1: and that means you need more fuel. And the more

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Speaker 1: fuel you have, the more fuel you need, And so

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Speaker 1: it grows very very quickly.

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Speaker 4: You got to like fill up the tank and take

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Speaker 4: it with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you have to.

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Speaker 4: You have to bring an oil tanker, not just like

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Speaker 4: a little.

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Speaker 1: Prios exactly, and then you got to accelerate that oil tanker.

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Speaker 1: That oil tanker also needs a tank of gas, right,

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Speaker 1: And so it very quickly grows to a huge number.

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Speaker 1: And the number is actually ridiculous, Like in order to

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Speaker 1: have enough fuel to get your toothpick up to five

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Speaker 1: percent of the speed of light takes more mass than

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Speaker 1: exists in the observable universe by a huge by huge number,

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Speaker 1: ten to the twenty two hundred.

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Speaker 4: So that's not a number, Daniel, you made that up.

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Speaker 4: It's impossible.

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Speaker 1: I didn't make that up. There's an impossible mathematics behind this.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's frustratingly difficult.

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Speaker 4: The one with two thousand zeros in front.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not hard to imagine how the number

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Speaker 1: gets so big. I mean, say your spaceship is the

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Speaker 1: size of Jupiter. How much fuel you're gonna need You're

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Speaker 1: gonna need as much fuel as like the Sun. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: now your spaceship is Jupiter and the Sun. How much

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Speaker 1: fuel you're gonna need to push that, Well, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: need like more suns. So it just grows just to

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Speaker 1: push this toothpick. So the lesson is chemical rockets that

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Speaker 1: require this kind of fuel are not going to get

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Speaker 1: us across the stars.

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Speaker 4: We need a better way, right, one where you don't

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Speaker 4: have to bring your fuel with you.

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Speaker 1: That's right, one where you don't have to bring the

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Speaker 1: fuel with you.

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Speaker 4: That's the idea, even if you use like you know,

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Speaker 4: is this but current fuel technology, you know, like you know,

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Speaker 4: the current rocket fuel or is this like imagining like

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Speaker 4: what if we invent fusion drives or you know, we

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Speaker 4: managed to invent fission drives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the basical limitation is that you need something to

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Speaker 1: push off of, and so it's not so much limited

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Speaker 1: by the technology of that push as to just having

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Speaker 1: to carry the fuel along with you.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I see, like how much mass you have to

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Speaker 4: expel in order to be pushed to the speed of light?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely. So there's this cool, crazy new idea out there.

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Speaker 1: This em drive sometimes called a impossible drive, that some

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Speaker 1: people think may have the possibility to overcome this problem.

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Speaker 1: And that's why they call it an impossible drive because

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Speaker 1: it seems to violate some laws of physics. But some

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Speaker 1: experimenters out there claim to have built one and made

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Speaker 1: it work.

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Speaker 4: Wow. And this came to us from a question from

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Speaker 4: one of our listeners, right, Russell Ollert.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he wrote to us about a year ago and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: can you guys explain this drive to me? Is it impossible?

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Speaker 1: Does it work? Could it actually get us to the star?

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Speaker 4: And it's taken us a year to answer just to.

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Speaker 1: Well, I built one of these things. I welcome down

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Speaker 1: the centauri and I came back. I mean, I do

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Speaker 1: some real field research questions. Did you think I was

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Speaker 1: just googling?

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Speaker 4: You know, we don't want to just give you an

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Speaker 4: idea and say it's impossible or not possible. We have

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Speaker 4: to see for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I'm an experimentalist. I back my answers up

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Speaker 1: with real research. Man, This is not just googling around.

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Speaker 4: Okay, right, So we're actually recording this from a pig

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Speaker 4: as we're making our way through out Lutory.

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Speaker 1: Two pick podcast studios, inc.

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Speaker 6: Well.

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Speaker 4: As usually, we were wondering how many people out there

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Speaker 4: had heard of this impossible drive or EM drive, and so,

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Speaker 4: as usual Daniel went out there into the wilds of

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Speaker 4: the internet to ask people what is an EM drive

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Speaker 4: and could it ever work? So think about it for

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Speaker 4: a second. If you had ever heard of it or not,

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Speaker 4: and a physicist asked you, what would you say. Here's

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Speaker 4: what people had to say.

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Speaker 7: HONEYM drive I haven't heard of. I'm going to presume

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Speaker 7: that EM stands for electromagnetic and drive with some sort

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Speaker 7: of propulsion system, So maybe some sort of rocket poster

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Speaker 7: or engine that doesn't require fuel but relies on electromagnetic

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Speaker 7: waves to propel itself.

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Speaker 8: I think theoretically it could work, but it's on the

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Speaker 8: realm of theoretical relativt, but nothing has been done about

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Speaker 8: it there. Supposedly you need a lot of energy to

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Speaker 8: make it work.

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Speaker 9: An EM drive. I think, Well, first of all, it

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Speaker 9: sounds really familiar, like I like a lot of sci fi.

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Speaker 9: So it's a term that has come up a lot,

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Speaker 9: and I think it doesn't exist yet. And I think

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Speaker 9: it also has to do with time travel, but I'm

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Speaker 9: not sure. I'm so excited to look it up later.

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Speaker 10: An EM drive is an electromagnetic drive that functions by

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Speaker 10: putting a lot of microwaves together. Currently, Toshiba and General

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Speaker 10: Electric have the best ratings by consumer reports. Anyways, you

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Speaker 10: put a bunch of these together and shoot microwaves out

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Speaker 10: one end to get the ship to go in the

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Speaker 10: opposite direction. It definitely doesn't work and will kill the

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Speaker 10: grass in your backyard if you attempt to achieve launch.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what an EM drive is. I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming that means electromagnetic, but I'm not sure, so I

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Speaker 1: have no idea to work. I don't know exactly what

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Speaker 1: this is, some kind of propulsion that I don't have

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Speaker 1: any idea.

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Speaker 11: I have never heard of an EM drive, so I'm

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Speaker 11: going to guess that EM stands for electromagnetic, and of

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Speaker 11: course drive means that's some sort of a of an

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Speaker 11: engine that can use electromagnetic pulses to create thrust. I

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Speaker 11: guess I don't.

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Speaker 6: Know what an EM drive is, but I do know

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Speaker 6: one other type of drive. It's called the infinite probability drive.

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Speaker 6: It was installed on the starship part of Gold, and

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Speaker 6: it was and it is still in use today.

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Speaker 8: I can explain it properly, but I know it's more

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Speaker 8: possible than a warp drive.

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Speaker 10: Sorry, Daniel, no idea.

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Speaker 1: Maybe a device for traveling around the universe. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea. What is an EM drive?

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Speaker 12: So the IM drive I've heard it's not the Cana

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Speaker 12: drive where it's slotted resonance space. But the idea is

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Speaker 12: that momentum is quantized, and so if you have a

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Speaker 12: smaller space on one side and a larger space on

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Speaker 12: the other side, it can bounce back some kind of

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Speaker 12: microwave frequency I think, and create propulsionless thrust. But I

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Speaker 12: don't think it's anything that actually works.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what an em drive is exactly. I

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Speaker 5: think it'd be electromagnetic, where you're using some kind of

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Speaker 5: electromagnetic reaction to throw particles out of the back of

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Speaker 5: a spaceship to accelerate it. I suppose that would work,

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Speaker 5: but it's probably not.

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Speaker 4: What you mean, all right, Not a lot of recognition,

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Speaker 4: but some people seem to know what it was, or

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Speaker 4: maybe they just lashed onto the electromagnetic cart of it.

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Speaker 1: You ask them. Good guesses there, and some people had

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Speaker 1: definitely heard about this, and this really made some waves

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Speaker 1: pun intended about ten years ago. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of splash in the media about this drive, and then

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Speaker 1: recently there's been some more news, and so I'm not

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Speaker 1: surprised that a few of our listeners have heard about

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Speaker 1: this discussion.

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Speaker 4: Oh nice, nice, I guess my first question is is

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Speaker 4: it that getarium? Does it come from plant based products?

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Speaker 4: Like the impossible burger?

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Speaker 1: No meat was harmed in the creation of this impossible.

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Speaker 4: Only laws of physics were totally destroyed, and all.

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Speaker 1: Life depends on the laws of physics. So I don't

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Speaker 1: really know is it vegan to break the laws of

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Speaker 1: physics or not. I need a ruling on that.

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Speaker 4: We need a better physics lawyer or a physics judge.

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Speaker 1: I guess we need to go to the International Court

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Speaker 1: of Physics cosmological Court of Impossibility.

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Speaker 4: All right, well, let's step through it here. First of all,

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Speaker 4: well what is it and where did this idea come from?

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Speaker 1: So the idea for the em drive is to try

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Speaker 1: to build a drive where you don't need to bring

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Speaker 1: along with you something to push against. You don't need

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Speaker 1: something to have a propellant. And remember that all rockets

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Speaker 1: that we've ever invented so far have two basic elements.

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Speaker 1: One is some source of energy, you know, like fuel

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Speaker 1: or laser or something, and the other is something to

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Speaker 1: put against and this comes from the conservation of momentum.

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Speaker 1: If you're going to move left, the only way to

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Speaker 1: do that is to push something else right.

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Speaker 4: That's the only way really in the universe.

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Speaker 1: The way yeah, right.

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Speaker 4: There's no magic in the universe.

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Speaker 1: Not that we're aware of. And the law of conservation

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Speaker 1: of momentum is very very deeply ingrained in physics and

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Speaker 1: it has been tested a zillion times, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the scales of galaxies and particles, so we're pretty confident

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Speaker 1: it's true. And it just basically says that momentum is conserved,

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Speaker 1: so momentum doesn't change. You can take a brick and

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Speaker 1: split it in half and send one half to the left,

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Speaker 1: but then you have to send the other half to

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Speaker 1: the right, so that there are momentum balances. Like if

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Speaker 1: your brick initially has zero momentum and the final state

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Speaker 1: it also has to have zero momentum. There can be motion,

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Speaker 1: there can be kinetic energy, but there has to be

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Speaker 1: zero net momentum.

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Speaker 4: So it's almost like if you want to go to

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Speaker 4: alpha centaury, you have to push yourself there almost. It's

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Speaker 4: like you have to if you want to get your

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Speaker 4: toothpick to alpha centaur, you have to push the equivalent

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Speaker 4: of a toothpick in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to sit in your ship and throw

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Speaker 1: stuff out the back right. You know, some people out

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Speaker 1: there wonder, like do rockets work in empty space because

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Speaker 1: they imagine that rockets work by pushing on the air.

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Speaker 1: They're not pushing on the air. They're just throwing stuff

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Speaker 1: out the back, right, because if they want to move forward,

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Speaker 1: something else has to move backwards. So the whole system,

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Speaker 1: the combination of all the original stuff, has the same

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Speaker 1: momentum as when it's started. And this is pretty familiar.

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Speaker 1: Like if you fire a gun, right, you're pushing a

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Speaker 1: bullet and there's a recoil. So imagine, you know, the

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Speaker 1: rocket example is the bullet is the stuff you're pushing

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Speaker 1: out the back, and the gun is your rocket. One

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Speaker 1: way to power a rocket ship is to stand in

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Speaker 1: the back of it and shoot bullets out the back.

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Speaker 4: Oh hey, that's an idea. Sad you guys thought about

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Speaker 4: that one.

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Speaker 1: That is basically the idea. I mean, that's what a

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Speaker 1: chemical rocket is, right, it start a big explosion and

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Speaker 1: focus all the stuff and shoot it out the back.

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Speaker 1: And that's why it goes. You take the energy, and

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Speaker 1: that energy is used to push stuff out the back.

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Speaker 1: So that's what a rocket is. But it needs those

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Speaker 1: two elements, one energy and two something to throw.

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Speaker 4: Out the back, right, Because you can just stand there

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Speaker 4: and throw things off the bag, you would get tired.

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Speaker 4: You need some energy to do it right.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's like you can't push yourself up by your bootstraps, right,

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Speaker 1: You can't stand in your spaceship and like get it

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Speaker 1: going by pushing on the inside of it. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: the basic idea of every rocket we've ever had. You

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Speaker 1: need energy, and you need something to recoil against. You

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Speaker 1: need propellant to throw at the back right right.

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Speaker 4: And then the problem is that you need to bring

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Speaker 4: that mess with you, the stuff you're gonna explode with

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Speaker 4: you in order to keep going.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and then you need to push that stuff right.

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Speaker 1: So you need to today push all the stuff you're

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Speaker 1: gonna need tomorrow and the stuff you're gonna need in

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Speaker 1: a week and in a year, and that stuff adds up,

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Speaker 1: which means today you need even more stuff to push

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Speaker 1: and that's how you end up with, you know, spaceships

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Speaker 1: Jupiter just to go to Alpha Centauri.

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Speaker 4: The payload the size of the Sun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so the idea for the impossible drive

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Speaker 1: is like, well, can we skip that step? Can we

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Speaker 1: somehow have a drive that doesn't need any recoil, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't throw anything out the back?

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Speaker 4: Wow, like something that somehow violates the laws of conservation

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Speaker 4: of momentum.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And that's why it's called the impossible drive

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Speaker 1: because it would totally violate the laws of conservation momentum.

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Speaker 1: Or you know, maybe there's something else going on, Like

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Speaker 1: if you build a device that seems to violate the

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Speaker 1: laws of conservation and momentum, that means that either one

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00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 1: you screwed something up in your experiments, two momentum isn't

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00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 1: actually conserved, you know, which would be like a huge deal.

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Speaker 1: Or this momentum is conserved, but there's something else in

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Speaker 1: your system you weren't aware it. You've like discovered some

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00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 1: new force field or some thing in the quantum foam

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00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: or something. Right, so you've learned something about.

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Speaker 4: The universe, and at that point, like why would you

403
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,119
Speaker 4: want to go to Elvisentauri just to hear and monetize

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00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 4: your amazing physics breaking idea.

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Speaker 1: That's right, your impossible foam or whatever it is. You

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Speaker 1: just yeah, and you know, so this is a different

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00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 1: class of ideas. This em drive is a different class

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00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: of ideas than ideas like a solar sail. Solar sales

409
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Speaker 1: are another really cool way to get to high speeds.

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Speaker 1: But the idea there is you sort of leave the

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Speaker 1: engine at home and you push the photons and they

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Speaker 1: get captured by your spaceship, which just gets pushed by

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00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 1: those photons, and so your whole engine. You can think

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Speaker 1: of it like as the laser that stays home, and

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Speaker 1: the sale is the part of the ship.

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Speaker 4: Right, It's like you're that's the different idea where you

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Speaker 4: can kind of catch things that are out there and

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Speaker 4: use them to kind of hit you, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. That's a different idea, but that requires some

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00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: like huge laser focused on your ship from really, really

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Speaker 1: really far away. This would be a drive you could

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Speaker 1: take anywhere. You could use it to lift off the

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Speaker 1: surface of the Earth and zoom around the whole galaxy

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Speaker 1: and get up to really high speeds. I mean, it's

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00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 1: how awesome I want the impossible drive to be impossible.

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Speaker 1: I want a car with the impossible drive. I do. Yeah,

427
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to take it to you know, the burger

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Speaker 1: joint and by an impossible burger.

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Speaker 4: All right, well, well it sounds too good to be true. Almost.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like a Tom Cruise movie almost. But

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00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 4: let's get into how it actually works and whether or

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Speaker 4: not it's impossible or possible, and what people have done

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Speaker 4: about it. But first, let's take a quick break.

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00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,800
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435
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436
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437
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438
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Speaker 4: All right, Daniel, we're talking about the impossible drive, which

484
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 4: is maybe a crazy eight idea that violates the laws

485
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 4: of physics, but which could potentially get us to other

486
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: star systems and other galaxies because it's a it's a

487
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 4: tough problem.

488
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: It's a tough problem, and we should keep an open mind.

489
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: We should think, Hey, some fresh ideas out there could

490
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: crack an age old problem or reveal something new about

491
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: physics and the universe. So we should definitely not just

492
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: scoff and dismiss. We should analyze it, right, But then

493
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: we also have to be skeptical. We can't just take

494
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: every crazy idea as just right.

495
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 4: You got to eat that impossible burger just to see

496
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 4: for yourself, because it maybe it can't. It's just like

497
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 4: real bore. Maybe the beyond burger is beyond the impossible burger.

498
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: Who knows? Right? Data is the only answer?

499
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 6: Oh?

500
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: Is there a beyond engine? Also not yet I'm working

501
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 4: on Oh I see. Oh sorry, sorry, that's beyond the

502
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 4: scope of today's podcast, beyond my nda agreement I have

503
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 4: with you. We'll have to edit that out, all right, Well,

504
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 4: maybe i'd step us through how does this impossible drive work? Like,

505
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 4: what's the basic physics idea or not physics idea behind?

506
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: It's kind of a crazy idea, and frankly, I don't

507
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: really under stand how it's even supposed to work, but

508
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: if you look around online you discover some basic facts

509
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: about it. So it's a copper cylinder, right, So it's

510
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: made out of metal and the cylinder it's got two

511
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: flat ends like a cylinder, but one side is bigger

512
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: than the other. And the idea is that this kind

513
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: of copper cylinder is a resonant chamber for microwaves. So

514
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: microwaves are just kind of light, they're kind of photon.

515
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: You put them in there, and this chamber is the

516
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: right size for them to bounce around and sort of

517
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: add up and build on each other, so they can

518
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: hang out inside, reflect back and reinforce themselves. So you

519
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: put microwaves in there, they should just sort of bounce

520
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: around forever. It's like a bottle that can capture microwave.

521
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 4: Really, they don't get absorbed into the metal or anything.

522
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: That's the idea. I mean, they do a little bit,

523
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: but if it's the right shape and the right material,

524
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: then they mostly just reflect. It's like fiber optics. You know,

525
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: you have this reflection of light and the interior. If

526
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: you have the right angle and the right materials and

527
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: the right interface between the materials in the resonant cavity

528
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 1: and the thing that makes up the cavity, you can

529
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: get almost total inter reflection.

530
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 4: All right, So it's kind of like a resonant cavity

531
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 4: right where microwaves bouncing side and somehow that gives you superpowers.

532
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if you're bitten by that cavity, right, then

533
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: you get that cavitys.

534
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: Proportion of story. That's right, you become the impossible man

535
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 4: or woman.

536
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: No, the idea, so you have a bottle with Marco

537
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: waves bouncing around inside of it. But then if you

538
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: make your bottle bigger on one side, so it's a

539
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: cylinder if one side is bigger on the other, and

540
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: then it sort of tapers. And the idea is that

541
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: the radiation pressure on one side is bigger than on

542
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: the other side, just because you get more microwaves hitting

543
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: one wall of the cavity than the other. And so

544
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: then they think, well, if you're pushing on the left

545
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: side more than the right side, shouldn't that generate some thrust?

546
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: Shouldn't that push this thing because there's more force the

547
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: left than there is on the right. That's the idea

548
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: behind the em drove.

549
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 4: By radiation pressure. You mean, like the forest that the

550
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 4: photons are making on the cavity wall.

551
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: That's right, because what happens when a photon reflects off

552
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: a wall is it pushes against it. If you bounce

553
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: a ball off of a wall, it's pushing on the wall, right.

554
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 1: It applies a force on the wall, and the wall

555
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: applies a force on the photon. And so this radiation

556
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: pressure is just that when a photon gets bounced, it

557
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: gets pushed, and it's also doing some pushing, right.

558
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 4: So we talked about it in a previous podcast, like

559
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 4: if I take a flashlight and flash it at you,

560
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 4: I'm actually kind of pushing you a little bit, and

561
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 4: I'm being pushed back even though it's just the flashlight.

562
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: And so imagine, you know, you have a gymnasium filled

563
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: with students and each one has a bouncy ball and

564
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: they're throwing the balls against the wall. If one wall

565
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: is bigger and it's getting hit by more balls, the

566
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: idea is there's more force on it, and so is

567
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: the whole gymnasium then going to like lift up off

568
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: the ground and travel to Alpha Centauri. That's my idea for.

569
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 4: Wow, Okay, this is sounding impossible already, but what's the

570
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 4: history of this thing, like who came up with it?

571
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: And why is it so hard to find information about

572
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 4: it on the internet.

573
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: It has a pretty sketchy history. It comes from a

574
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: guy named Roger Schuyer in two thousand and one. He

575
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 1: designed this thing. He had this idea and he designed

576
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: it and he built it and he claimed that it worked.

577
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: He said, I built it and it worked. But he

578
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: didn't really share any evidence of it, just sort of

579
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: claimed this was true.

580
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 4: Didn't publish or anything, didn't let anyone see the device.

581
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: No, he never published a paper. He could just it

582
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: was sort of a you know, always promising something else.

583
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: He's like, he's promising the next version, he's promising the

584
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: new results, he's promising the next round, but never actually delivered.

585
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 4: And this guy was just an inventor, a physicist or

586
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 4: a lawyer. What Tom Cruise's brother.

587
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, he's an inventor and so he has

588
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: some technical background, and you know, he was shooting Meg.

589
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: He was thinking, hey, could I solve a really big problem?

590
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: And he had this idea and he claimed that it worked.

591
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: But you know, in science, you can't just tell people

592
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: that your idea worked. You have to prove it you

593
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: have to describe the details. People want to understand it.

594
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: Other people will want to build it and test it

595
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: for themselves. If this is something which is true and physical,

596
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: it should be true in other people's labs also, And

597
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: if we want to build them jives. We can't just

598
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: rely on one guy in his basement, and we need

599
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: to actually understand the physical principle.

600
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 4: It can actually be impossible. It has to be possible.

601
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: It can't be some magical fairy dust that he sprinkled

602
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: on it in his garage.

603
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 4: Right, And some scientists looked at it, I think, right

604
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 4: in two thousand and six.

605
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, in two thousand and six there was a

606
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: lot of coverage because Robert Troyer is also you know,

607
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: he's good at the pr and so he managed to

608
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: convince the New Scientist magazine, which is a magazine with

609
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: very high readership in two thousand and six, to write

610
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: an article suggesting that this thing might really be true.

611
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: And that article received a lot of criticism by science

612
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: writers because it's sort of glossed over the fact that

613
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: there's a basic problem with this drive, like it violates

614
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: the law of conservation of momentum, that it shouldn't work

615
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: so the fact that he claims to have built it

616
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: and made it work, you know, need to be reported

617
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: with a big, big piece of sub Oh.

618
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 4: I see they didn't show enough skepticism.

619
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so this is roundly ridiculed. But other

620
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: people interested. And so then there was another guy, a

621
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: guy named Guido Feta. He's just a marketing executive, but

622
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: he got really interested in this and he built another version.

623
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: He calls it the why Cana driven.

624
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: Like can't like can't can it like like impossible was taken.

625
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 4: So I'm gonna go with can't because that sounds like impossible.

626
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds to me like an Irish expression like

627
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: you can do that, But I'm not sure the linguistic

628
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,959
Speaker 1: origins of it. But he had some contacts at NASA,

629
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: and he found some folks at the NASA Eaglework Labs

630
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: to try to test this. What oh yes, and he's like,

631
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: all right, I built this, Please test this. Tell me

632
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: if this thing can work.

633
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 4: Oh wow. So they like and big like actually NASA

634
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 4: got involved.

635
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, there's a question about whether it's actually NASA

636
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: or some people at NASA, right, you know, like if

637
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: I if I do an experiment in my lab and

638
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: I say, oh my gosh, I've overthrown the laws of physics.

639
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: Can you say the University of California has overthrown the

640
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: laws of physics? Right? I can't speak for the whole university,

641
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: and these folks at NASA don't necessarily get to speak

642
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: for NASA.

643
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 4: Maybe it was the Estonian or the cafeteria worker in

644
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 4: NASA who like press the button, and then it's like

645
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 4: NASA did it.

646
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: Well, it got a lot of attention because these folks

647
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: at NASA Eagle Works Labs, they tested it and they

648
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: saw a little bit of thrust, like they claim that

649
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: it generates a very small amount of thrust. Now, the

650
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: amounts we're talking about are really really really tiny. Like

651
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: we measure thrust, it's a force. We measure units of newtons,

652
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: So like a one kilogram object on the surface of

653
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: the Earth feels ten newtons, right, So newton is not

654
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: a small unit. But these guys when they measured this thing,

655
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: they measured like milan newtons, like one when thousands of

656
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: a newton, or even smaller like micro newtons. So what

657
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: they measured were really really small effects. Like they built

658
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: this thing, they put it on the table and they

659
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: felt a very small force when they turned it down. Interesting,

660
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: but it's not it's not nothing. I mean exactly.

661
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 4: A Newton is like the weight of an apple almost,

662
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: So it's like, you know, it's like taking a bite

663
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 4: out of an apple.

664
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: It's like taking a very small bite out of an

665
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: apple and nibble. Yeah, exactly. And they put out a

666
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: paper in twenty sixteen saying, well, you know, we tested

667
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: this thing and it doesn't seem to be impossible because

668
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: we're getting a small amount of thrust.

669
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 14: Wha.

670
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that made a lot of explosions in minds

671
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: and physics all across the world.

672
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. Then it got a wider press coverage.

673
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: Yes, it got a lot of press, and a lot

674
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: of that press, you know, skimmed over some of the

675
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: important details, you know. You know. They were headlines in Wired,

676
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: for example, saying NASA validates impossible space drive, which I'm

677
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: sure people at NASA woke up in a sweat over

678
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: when they read that.

679
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 4: Unless unless it's true, then it's like, oh, we'll take

680
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 4: the credit.

681
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. And Popular Mechanics wrote an article with the

682
00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: title was space engine breaks the laws of physics. Oh, clickbait,

683
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: do you see clickbait, and so it was very exciting. Right,

684
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: people are like, maybe this is true, and maybe it

685
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that this drive only gives you a tiny

686
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: little force, because you can scale it up, or we

687
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: can improve it, or we can you know, pass it

688
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: on to the engineers and said, we proved it possible,

689
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: make it work, right, make it better, more make it

690
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: more efficient.

691
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: Yeah. Also, I mean, if you're on a toothpack on

692
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 4: your way to Alpha Centauri, you know you got time.

693
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 4: So even a little push with help.

694
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, even a little push, a little constant push without

695
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: the need for propellant, could get you to very high speeds.

696
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: That's the whole idea of a solar sale. Solar sales

697
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: do not provide a lot of acceleration. It's just a long,

698
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: constant acceleration without the need for a really heavy rocket

699
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: can get you up to significant fractions of the speed

700
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: of light.

701
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 4: Right Yeah, all right, Well this sounds maybe like it's

702
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 4: not impossible. Daniel. Now I'm really intrigued here. I mean,

703
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: are we going to be on our way to Alpha

704
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 4: Centauri pretty soon? Or is that impossible? So let's get

705
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 4: into whether it actually can work and what's going on

706
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 4: with these impossible physics. But for let's take a quick break.

707
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

708
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

709
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

710
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

711
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

712
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

713
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

714
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

715
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

716
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

717
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

718
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

719
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

720
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

721
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

722
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

723
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

724
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

725
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: usdary dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

726
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 15: Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which

727
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 15: recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm

728
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 15: a neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring

729
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 15: the three pound universe.

730
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: In our heads. We're looking at a whole.

731
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 15: New series of episodes this season to understand why and

732
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 15: how our lives look the way they do. Why does

733
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 15: your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard

734
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 15: to keep a secret, When should you not trust your intuition?

735
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 15: Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And

736
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 15: why do they love conspiracy theories. I'm hitting these questions

737
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 15: and hundreds more because the more we know about what's

738
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 15: running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.

739
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

740
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 15: Between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.

741
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 15: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the Eye,

742
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 15: Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

743
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 16: I'm doctor Laurie Santos, host of The Happiness Lab, podcast

744
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 16: is the US elections approach. It can feel like we're

745
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 16: angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new

746
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 16: hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share with the science

747
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 16: it really shows that we're surprisingly more united than most

748
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 16: people think.

749
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: We all know something is wrong in our culture, in

750
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: our politics, and that we need to do better, and

751
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: that we can do better with the.

752
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 16: Help of Stanford psychologist Jamiale Zaki.

753
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 5: It's really tragic.

754
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: If cynicism were appeal, it'd be a poison.

755
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 16: We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with,

756
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 16: are more generous than we assume.

757
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 9: My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot

758
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 9: of us are actually looking for a way to disagree

759
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 9: and still be in relationships.

760
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: With each other.

761
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 16: All that on the Happiness Lab, listen on the iHeartRadio app,

762
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 16: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

763
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 4: All right, Daniel, it seems as we left at NASA,

764
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 4: or at least some people who work at NASA validated

765
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 4: this impossible space drive, this crazy idea that somebody seems

766
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 4: to violate the laws of physics, but that could maybe

767
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 4: get us to another galaxy or another star. So what's

768
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 4: going on here, Daniel, is this really possible or is

769
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 4: there something here we're nazee.

770
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: Well, you have to sort of hold your enthusiasm in

771
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: check and apply your skeptical mind, like we'd love for

772
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: this to work, and we want it to work. In

773
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: that sense, we have a bit of a conflict of interest.

774
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: It's just like when you listen to a story about aliens.

775
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: If you want it to be true, then you're going

776
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: to be less skeptical and you're going to like gloss

777
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: over problems in the story. So you've got to put

778
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: aside your plans for Alpha Centauri and just ask your like,

779
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: does this make sense? And the first thing to think

780
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: about is whether the experimental results are done carefully enough right,

781
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: because this is a very small effect, Like what they

782
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: measure is, you know, the equivalent of like a fly

783
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: landing on this thing, So you have to remove all

784
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: other possible sources of experimental error. And when you dig

785
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: into these experiments, they're not done with the kind of

786
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: care that you need in order to really establish that

787
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: this small thrust comes from radiation pressure inside the drive

788
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: and not something else.

789
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: Like the air conditioner maybe was hitting on your device

790
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 4: and pushing it a little.

791
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: Bit you know that you're not far from the truth.

792
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: Like when you turn this thing on, it heats up

793
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: because you're pounding microwaves inside of it. And if it

794
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: heats up, then it's going to cause air currents around it.

795
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: And so those thermal currents, if it's not in a

796
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: really really good vacuum, those thermal currents might be what's

797
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: providing this this micro thrust.

798
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 4: Well, I'm trying to get a picture here. So somebody

799
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 4: actually built is this marketing exact could have built this device,

800
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 4: this machine, and it got tested by some people who

801
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 4: work in NASSA, so like you know, like this actually happened.

802
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: This actually happened.

803
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 4: There was a room with people from NASA there with

804
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 4: clipboards and then I'm sure they were wearing white lab codes, right,

805
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 4: safety goggles, protective helmets and like like this thing is humming,

806
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 4: it's like it's running, and they measured a force, but

807
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 4: you're saying, maybe it could have been something else.

808
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't have to be a force from the drive.

809
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: You have to remove all other sources of experimental error

810
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: to convince yourself the force came from the drive. So

811
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: the first test they did weren't even in a vacuum.

812
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: So who even knows if those results are just due

813
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: to the air getting warm around it and differentially pushing

814
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: on it, because one side of it.

815
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 4: Is well wow, all right, Well, I mean it sounds

816
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 4: like you just kind of need to replicate the experiment.

817
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 4: Has anybody tried or nobody wants to touch this?

818
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so other labs have tried, Like so there's a

819
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: lab in Germany and a lab in China, and some

820
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: of these labs can't reproduce the results, like they just

821
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: don't thrust. Other labs have seen thrust. But then they

822
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: showed that this thrust was actually just an interaction between

823
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: the wires that lead up to the em drive and

824
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: the Earth's magnetic.

825
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 4: Feel what yeah, Oh, I see the wires that create

826
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 4: the microwaves, not the wires like leading up to the device.

827
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: So no, the wires leading up to the device, the

828
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: ones that like, you know, power this thing. And so

829
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: we're talking about really small effects here. You know, it's

830
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: like you breathe on this thing, and that's a bigger

831
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: effect than the thrust that they're measuring. Oh wow, And

832
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: so it's very easy to make a mistake, and you know,

833
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: you read these papers they don't seem very carefully done.

834
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: And I said, they don't give you confidence in the

835
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: experimental setup. It's it's sort of like you remember the

836
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: cold fusion thing, Like these guys measured some heat production,

837
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: but there were all sorts of uncertainties and errors and

838
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: other ways that could confuse the results that were potentially

839
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: bigger than the signal they measured. IC So the signal

840
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: these people are measuring is smaller than the noise in

841
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: their system.

842
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 4: Right, you have to be super extra careful, right, like

843
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 4: when you guys built the Lego gravitational waves telescope. You know,

844
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 4: you had to bury it on the ground, You had

845
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 4: to put it in the middle of nowhere. You had

846
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 4: to track any truck passing by just to make sure

847
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 4: that that wasn't costing the signal exactly.

848
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: They can't just build a device and then it shakes

849
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: and they say, hey, gravitational waves. Right, they need to

850
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: show that they're not sensitive to all the sources of

851
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: noise that are nearby. And that's what this these folks

852
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: have not done, Okay, And there's some really concerning things

853
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: about the results, like sometimes they get thrust even if

854
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: the drive is backwards, and they get they get thrust

855
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: the direction. Yeah, yeah, the levels sort of experimental rigor

856
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: that we're talking about here.

857
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe it's mind control, Daniel. It operates on wishes

858
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 4: and unicorns, like, if you want it to work, it works.

859
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so I would not say that the results

860
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: are conclusive, you know, I would not say this thing

861
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: generates thrust.

862
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 4: Wow. Well, I'm impressed they actually flipped it around, you know,

863
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 4: like that shows a little bit of experimental worker.

864
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. I wouldn't have that was on purpose or they

865
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: just sort of you know, put it in backwards.

866
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 5: See.

867
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 4: Oh man, we're throwing all kinds of shade that these

868
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 4: NASA scientists and.

869
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: These are not NASA scientists, and these are people at NASA,

870
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: right right, NASA did not stand behind this result.

871
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 4: It's done in their spare time, in their garage right

872
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 4: exactly now, with official white lab coats from NASA. They

873
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 4: bought it off the internet.

874
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: And you know, it's hard to imagine how this thing

875
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: could actually work. Right, just because you have photons bouncing

876
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: around inside a bottle doesn't mean that it's going to

877
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: get pushed, right. It violates the law of conservation and momentum.

878
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: You can't you know, you can pull yourselves up from

879
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: your bootstraps.

880
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 13: Right.

881
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 1: If you stand inside a box in empty space and

882
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: you throw a ball against one wall of the box, yeah,

883
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: that ball applies a force to the wall, But to

884
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: throw the ball, you apply to force the other direction

885
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: to the floor. Right, So you can't push a box

886
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: from the inside.

887
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 4: Right, as far as we know, As far as we

888
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 4: that's what we have. That's how we think the universe works.

889
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 4: But as you say, we kind of have to keep

890
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 4: an open eye, which unfortunately kind of leads you open

891
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 4: to these crazy ideas.

892
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 6: Yeah.

893
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: And so the guys who wrote this paper they know this,

894
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: and they understand that this thing shouldn't work, but they

895
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: are really yeah, but they are seeing a result. And

896
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: so in the paper they put this really sort of

897
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: amazing claim and I just have to read it to

898
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: you verbation because it's a I don't want to paraphrase.

899
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: They say that their drive quote is producing a force

900
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomena, and

901
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum

902
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: virtual plasma.

903
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 4: Well that makes sense. Oh, now I totally get it.

904
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: I was totally waiting for somebody to bring up the

905
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: quantum vacuum virtual.

906
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 4: Plasma obviously everyone, Well, I mean I guess the typical

907
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 4: person like me wouldn't be able to tell the difference

908
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 4: if that's something that's real or not.

909
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: Well, you know there is a thing which is the

910
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: quantum vacuum, right. We know that empty space is not empty,

911
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: that it's filled with energy.

912
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 4: Right, And we talked about virtual particles in a recent episode, right,

913
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 4: like virtual quantum particles.

914
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: Rights, Yeah, because this energy that's in empty space can

915
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: turn into particles, and those particles live for a very

916
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: short amount of time and then they turn back into

917
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: energy or another kind of particle or whatever. So there

918
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 1: is this sort of energy available. This is like frothing foam.

919
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: But this is not a question of having a source

920
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: of energy, right, there's already energy in this drive. This

921
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: is a question of having something to push off of, right.

922
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: This is a question of momentum. Right.

923
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 4: But energy hmm, I mean energy is mass? Could I

924
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 4: say that like energy is mass, like solar sales work

925
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 4: on photons which have no mass.

926
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: Yes, But this quantum vacuum doesn't have like a rest frame.

927
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: You can't push against it. You can't like change the

928
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 1: net momentum of a quantum vacuum. That doesn't make any sense.

929
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 4: What could I maybe cat after those energy? I'm just

930
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 4: rooting for these NASA garage, so I'm playing Devil's advocate.

931
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 4: Could you like somehow capture the energy of empty space

932
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 4: and like use it, you know, converted to mass and

933
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 4: push it one way? Is that possible?

934
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Jorge, I think you've thought about this

935
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: more deeply than the guy who wrote that paper. But

936
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: think about what you're suggesting. You say, capture the energy

937
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: of empty space and then convert it into mass and

938
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: throw it in one direction. Right, that would mean it

939
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: has now some sort of net momentum, whereas it didn't

940
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: have that before. And that's the problem is that this

941
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: quantum vacuum has no rest frame. It has no like

942
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: net momentum which you can capture unless you're going to

943
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: break the law of conservation of momentum. Then there's no

944
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: way to gain momentum for this device.

945
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 11: Right.

946
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 4: But I guess you know, is the law of conservation

947
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 4: of momentum related to the law of conservation of energy.

948
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 4: They're sort of related, right.

949
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: They are sort of related in particle physics, we think

950
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: of energy momentum together. We put it together actually into

951
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: like a four dimensional vector, the way that you have

952
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: like four dimensional space time vector, three dimensions of space

953
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: and one of time. We think of four momentum, three

954
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: dimensions of momentum and one of energy. And so these

955
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: things are related certainly, So the whole vector has to

956
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: be conserved, but they're can served independently, like momentum and

957
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: X is conserved separately from momentum, and ys can served

958
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: separately from momentum and z, and then energy conservation is

959
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: also separate. So they're related, but they're independent. It makes

960
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: it a very powerful constraint, right, all.

961
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 4: Right, Well, there are ideas and maybe it's tapping into

962
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 4: this impossible drive. Is maybe tapping into this quantum vacuum,

963
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 4: virtual plasma or energy. Is that possible or is that

964
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 4: total bunk?

965
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: I think it's total bunk. And you know, I did

966
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: some reading about this, and Sean Carroll says, quote, there

967
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: is no such thing as a quantum vacuum virtual plasma,

968
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: So that should be a tip off, right there. There

969
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: is a quantum vacuum, but is nothing like a plasma,

970
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, So he's pointing out the use of the

971
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: word plasma means that they're maybe not even really understanding

972
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. And I think the way you're

973
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: imagining it is like, can you push off against this plasma?

974
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: Can you like impart some momentum on it the way

975
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: you can like with a rowboat, Right, you're like rowing

976
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: against the water, and you're pushing against the water, so

977
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: the water gets momentum one way, you get momentum the

978
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: other way.

979
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 4: I guess maybe it's a good analogy. Like if you're

980
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 4: on in the middle of the ocean, you can't just

981
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 4: like with a bucket pick up some water. Oh maybe

982
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 4: you could.

983
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you can't treat the quantum foam like you

984
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: can the ocean. You can't row your way through the

985
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: quantum foam because all the energy there is virtual. It's

986
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: like borrowed momentarily and it needs to return. It's not

987
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: real energy in that way, it's quantum fluctuations. There's a

988
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: difference between these virtual energy particles and the real particles,

989
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: and so there's no like the way you're imagining it,

990
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: like the ocean has a rest frame, right, It's like

991
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: there is an ocean. It's a zero velocity in some frame.

992
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: That's not true for this quantum vacuum. Right, It's an

993
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: inherent property of space. It has no rest frame, the

994
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: way that space itself has no absolute zero. For you

995
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: to be able to row your way through space would

996
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 1: mean that space had like some rest frame that we've

997
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: never discovered before and would violate special relativity.

998
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 4: All right, well worth a shot, Daniel, Totally worth a shot.

999
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 4: I mean, I only get to do physics two hours

1000
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 4: a week, so I'm shooting for the moon here with

1001
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 4: the impossible rowing through space. That'll be the name of

1002
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 4: my engine.

1003
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: That'll be the name of your memoirs, right.

1004
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: The space or space or.

1005
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's just nonsense, But it's totally worth a shot,

1006
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: and it's worth these guys thinking about it, and I

1007
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: love the ambition, you know. They'd say, all right, we

1008
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: built this drive. We agree it shouldn't work, but it

1009
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: kind of does. So maybe we discovered something new and

1010
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: crazy about the universe. Like that's cool, but it has

1011
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: to also actually kind of make sense, right.

1012
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 4: Well, you know, but like you said, you have to

1013
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 4: be skeptical but also keep an open mind, like maybe

1014
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 4: it is kind of you have to admit a little

1015
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 4: bit possible for or, you know, our ideas about conservation

1016
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 4: of momentum and the vacuum to maybe be a little off,

1017
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 4: and maybe there is a little bit of a room

1018
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 4: there to maybe do something that seems impossible.

1019
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: Certainly, And we don't understand empty space, and we don't

1020
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: understand this quantum vacuum, and there may be a way

1021
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: to interact with it that allows you to capture momentum

1022
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: in a way that we can't imagine right now. That's true.

1023
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: I don't think this em drive is doing that. I

1024
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: think this am drive is just a fun device in

1025
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: a lab somewhere. I see.

1026
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 4: It seems unlikely that a little copper cone will somehow

1027
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 4: pierce the reality of the laws of physical.

1028
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, because theyve made no connection between how they've built

1029
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: this thing and this quantum vactual virtual plasma. It's like saying, hey,

1030
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: who ate my chocolate chip cookies? I don't know, maybe

1031
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: it was the quantum vacual virtual plasma, right, Like, oh.

1032
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 4: Why not? You can't That's what my kids say all

1033
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 4: the time.

1034
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: It's not just an escape clause for everything, right, It's

1035
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: not that something your physical lawyer, could you get you

1036
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: out of jail on no matter. What you need like

1037
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: an actual mechanism, a real explanation for for how this plasma,

1038
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: which you know people think doesn't even exist, how this

1039
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: virtual vacuum is somehow giving you momentum.

1040
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 4: Right, why was I late to this podcast recording because

1041
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 4: you know, the quantum plasma was pushing against me and

1042
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 4: I lost my space or and that's why. Also I

1043
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 4: had to finish the Mission Impossible five. It was on TV,

1044
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 4: so all right.

1045
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: So I'd say overall, this thing is most likely hype

1046
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 1: and not going to lead to anything. But I encourage

1047
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: people out there experiment in your garage, try to make

1048
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: up a new drive, because you know, I want us

1049
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: to get to Alpha Centauri. I don't want to go myself,

1050
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: but I want humans to get to explore it.

1051
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 4: You don't want to ride that toothpick. You want somebody else,

1052
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 4: probably smaller than you, to provide it. It's not a

1053
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 4: lot of until we figure something out, it's going to

1054
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 4: be it is going to be impossible to make it

1055
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 4: to Alpha Centauri within a lifetime or a few lifetimes, right,

1056
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 4: I mean we need we need an idea like this,

1057
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 4: like a crazy idea, otherwise we'll never get there.

1058
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: Well, I'm banking on solar sales. I think we build

1059
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: a big laser and a really big sale, and you

1060
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: can take a really light craft and accelerated to a

1061
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: high speed. So if I was investing money in interstellar transport,

1062
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: I think solar sales are currently the best end.

1063
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 4: Okay, how about a quantum plasma sale?

1064
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: That sounds impossible?

1065
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 4: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed this little trip

1066
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 4: down impossible lane. And it's kind of amazing to think

1067
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 4: that maybe there could be devices out there that break

1068
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 4: the laws of physics. This one seems like a little

1069
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 4: bit impossible, but you know, it is sort of still

1070
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 4: out there that we don't understand the loss of physics

1071
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 4: enough to know whether these things are really conclusive or not.

1072
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, we don't know, and we should always

1073
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: keep an open mind to what might be out there.

1074
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: Sometimes people discover crazy stuff when they're trying to do

1075
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: something else. There's lots of times in the history of

1076
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: physics when things have been discovered by accident. And so

1077
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: while I don't think that this drive is cracked open

1078
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: the secrets of the quantum virtual plasma, keep experimenting, folks,

1079
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: keep thinking of ideas. You may stumble across something amazing.

1080
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 4: It could be one of our listeners who breaks the laws.

1081
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 1: Fils and we get one percent.

1082
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 4: That's right, and then you can represent them in the

1083
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 4: cosmological court of impossibility.

1084
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: That sounds great. My fee is one percent of your

1085
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: Nobel prize.

1086
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 4: Is that like a nibble of an apple?

1087
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 1: That's just the core? Yeah?

1088
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 4: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that and keep

1089
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 4: thinking of the impossible. See you next time.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge explain

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00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeart Radio. Or more

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00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart Radio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1093
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you

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00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably

1095
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in

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00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 1: the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every

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00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: day to find new ways to reduce waste, con serve

1098
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is

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00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: us dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digesters

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Speaker 1: to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that

1101
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Speaker 1: can power farms, towns, and electric Cars. Visit you as

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Speaker 1: Dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.

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Speaker 2: Our iHeartRadio Music Festival Percentate by Capitol One Coming Back

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Speaker 2: to Las Vegas twenty first, a weekend full of superstar performances.

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Speaker 2: A sap Rocky takes Sean Camila Kabel tochi Uliva, When's

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Speaker 12: And get It.

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Speaker 3: Tiggests to be there at as dot Com.

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00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 4: Guess what Will?

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Speaker 17: What's that Mago?

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Speaker 14: I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast,

1114
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 14: Part Time Genius, but even though we've done over two

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Speaker 14: hundred and fifty episodes, we don't really talk about murderers

1116
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Speaker 14: or cults.

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00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 17: I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese,

1118
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Speaker 17: so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We

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Speaker 17: also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food?

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Speaker 1: And how do.

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Speaker 17: Dollar stores make money? And then of course can you

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Speaker 17: game a dog show?

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Speaker 14: So what you're saying is everyone should be listening listen

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00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:16,439
Speaker 14: to Part

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Speaker 17: Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get

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Speaker 17: your podcasts.