1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Quody Balus with Joseph Scott More. It's weird when we 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: think about the origins of sayings that we have, you know, 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: from over the years, and they kind of enter the 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: lex kind they stay with us, but we don't consider 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: the origins of them. And one in particular that is 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: used is the term rule of thumb, and most people 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: don't think about the origin of that. Now, it's got 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: a dubious origin at best, but when it comes down 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: to it, it's a unit of measurement. And no, it 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the size of a stick 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: one can beat their wife with. That's a fallacy that's 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: been proven as untrue. It's actually a unit of measurement 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: for construction that was devised back in the Middle Ages. 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: But today we're going to talk about not a rule, 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: but we're going to talk about a thumb, a thumb 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: that was removed from a man's hand, his right hand 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: in particular, in order to accomplish something that is absolutely 18 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: positively horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks. Dave. Wow, 19 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: this case kind of landed on us for a moment. 20 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: Had to go back and reread the few versy lines 21 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: actually the headline, because the headline that I initially saw 22 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: contained contained the line that the victim in this case, 23 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: his thumb had actually been removed. And I guess one 24 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: of the biggest questions is he did obviously recovering on 25 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: body backs. Well, there you go, and I hope that 26 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: he was dead when his thumb was removed. 27 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: And I've got to ask you about that, Joe. That's 28 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: in my notes to ask you. All. Right, here we go. 29 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: We've got fifty three year old fossil Tikelmerian Fossil was 30 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: murdered and then his thumb was cut off either right 31 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: before he died or after he died, and was used 32 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: to access his digital apps for money. I have one 33 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: of these on my phone where I can use my thumb, 34 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: you know, as an identifier as opposed to typing in 35 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: a number or anything else. Is my thumb. I'm now 36 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: considering changing that, But that's. 37 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: What they in the wake of the story. 38 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 2: You are, yeah, because really I didn't think this was 39 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: a I didn't think about it, Joe. I just didn't. 40 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: The bottom line always is the bottom line. Fossil was 41 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: murdered for money. That's it. And there's a total of 42 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 2: five people that are involved in this, two women are 43 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: already in jail, a third one is talking to police. 44 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: Doesn't get much deeper than this. No, it doesn't to 45 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: steal his money, but the fact from an investigative perspective, Dave, 46 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: the beauty of this, if there is beauty, is first off, 47 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: the question that you would ask, what's the purpose of 48 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: removing the thumb? Okay when you're observing the scene, And 49 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: I think that that's I think that's kind of an 50 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: obvious question, but not necessarily why the thumb as opposed 51 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: to the other nine digits that this individual has, because 52 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: to this point we only know the single digit of 53 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: the thumb that is missing. So is was it a 54 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: torture event? I think you know, you would you would 55 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: ask that question. But as it turns out, this is 56 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: this is what we refer to as biometrics, and there's 57 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: actually biometric forensics that are out there in the digital world. 58 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: And at boykay, I learned something new. What is biometric. 59 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, biometric forensics? So well, you use it every day. 60 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: We use it every day now. It used to be 61 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: very space aged. And let me tell you a quick story. 62 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm a big James Bond fan, okay, and yes, I 63 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: to go ahead and clear this up from Jump Street. 64 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: My favorite James Bond of all time Sean Connery. So anyway, 65 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: besides that, there was a movie that was made with 66 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: Sean Connery when he was older, and it came out 67 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty three and it was outside of the 68 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: James Bond universe, and it. 69 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: Was called Never Seen every Day Again. 70 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was Actually I thought it was a 71 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: very good movie. I enjoyed it because I enjoyed Sean Connery. 72 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: But you know, in that movie, they used an early 73 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: form of biometrics because the idea was they were trying 74 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: to get in like every James Bond movie, they're trying 75 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: to get access to a nuclear weapon or nuclear codes. Right. Well, 76 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: they had taken a US Air Force off officer and 77 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: done surgery on this guy to implant a retina in 78 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: his eye, and he was going to pose as another 79 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: as another pilot, and they had to get biometric I know, 80 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: you're you're rubbing your eyes biometric access to the CODs 81 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: and they go through the whole thing. It goes into 82 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: great detail and I was shocked by it. I was 83 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: very young man when I saw this movie. In the theater. 84 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: But that's the early, that's that's the early, one of 85 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: the earliest remembrances I have of biometrics, and and still today. 86 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: You know, we use retinal scans, we use palm scans. 87 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, you can place your hand on on on 88 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: platform and it'll scan your palm. They use facial recognition. 89 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: That's biometrics. So it's the measurement of all things relative 90 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: to you. And when it comes to fingerprints in particular, 91 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: that's one of the oldest things where we apply in 92 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: numeric formula two in forensics. It's called the Henry numbering 93 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: system or the Henry system, and it is it equates it, 94 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: it gives a numerical value to each point of identification 95 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: along your friction ridge lines. And so they've taken that 96 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: now and expanded that out into access, security and control. 97 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: And that's what we're dealing with with this poor man's phone. 98 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: And the biggest I think the biggest revealed Dave here 99 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: is the fact that somebody, if this wasn't torture, somebody 100 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: had intimate knowledge of him that he used his thumb 101 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: in order to access his phone. They must have seen 102 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: him do it before. 103 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: Audrey Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray. Audrey's nineteen. Tiffany Taylor 104 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: Gray is twenty two. They both knew Fossil, he's fifty three. 105 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: They knew him. They're very close acquaintance's, business friends, whatever 106 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: you want to call it. And they knew him in 107 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: the biblical sense. They knew this man and they knew 108 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: how he accessed things. As a matter of fact, Tiffany 109 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: Taylor Gray had been charged a year before this with 110 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: stealing sixteen hundred dollars from Fossil and not exactly sure 111 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: how all that went down, but anyway you look at it, 112 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: a lot of us use our thumb in opening up 113 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: our phone, and when so many people have their financial 114 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: data using apps on the phone to pay bills and 115 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: things like that, once you're in, you're in, and that 116 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: thumb scan can get you into your banking information in 117 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: a lot of cases. 118 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: I am amazed, you know, having a son that is, 119 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: you know, in his early twenties college student, I'm amazed 120 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: when he it's almost like he's speaking a foreign language. Yeah, 121 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, like, you know, can you shoot me money 122 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: over a cash app? In some manner? And they can 123 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: be on multiple platforms and it goes into an account. 124 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: I know that seems I seem like an old dinosaur. 125 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: I understand that. That's okay. I'll roll like that. I'll 126 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: take that. But there are so many of these things 127 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: where this thing, this boat anchor, digital boat anchor, that 128 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: we all carry around in our pocket, it not only 129 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 1: has the ability to track us, but also the most 130 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: intimate details of our lives. My papa used to say 131 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: when I was young, he would say, son, do yourself 132 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: a favor. Never discussed with anybody, what church you attend, 133 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: who you voted for, or how much you make, And 134 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: in this case, I think the latter was discussed at 135 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: nauseam Dave, other than the thumb. I think that probably 136 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that was so 137 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: striking to me about this case was the fact that 138 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: they apparently have tons of CCTV footage in this particular case, 139 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: and the fact, you know, people think that they're so 140 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: smart with the way and that they're so sophisticated with 141 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: what they can do digitally, but people are so ignorant 142 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to not being not being situationally aware 143 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: where they If you're going to perpetrate a crime, where 144 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: you face is constantly being caught on Cameron. They were 145 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: in the DC metro area here. 146 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: I was going to point that out, Joe, and I 147 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: wonder how different it is there than in other parts 148 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 2: of the country. This is in a building, an apartment building, right, 149 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: so depending on the area. I can't imagine not having 150 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 2: security cameras in an apartment building like that, you know, 151 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: because something can happen inside that apartment building and you 152 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 2: need a record of it. You need to know who 153 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: was there and when. And that's what we did find out. 154 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: In reality. 155 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I don't know if you've 156 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: got any friends that live in the DC area, but 157 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: it is one of the most expensive places in the 158 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: US that you can live. And so in my mind, 159 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: I don't know how much he was paying per month, 160 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: but one of my demands I think would be, if 161 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: I'm paying out this kind of money, I better have security. 162 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: I better have CCTV. But you know that any kind 163 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: of camera that might give you comfort that the people 164 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: that own the apartment is not necessarily for your benefit. 165 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: It's for their benefit because they're trying to, you know, 166 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: give you the sense of secure or they're trying to 167 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: knock down the possibility of crime, which of course didn't 168 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: thwart anything here. I think that goes to the potentially 169 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: the mindset of the people that are perpetrating this. But 170 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, you would think that you would have an 171 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: awareness if you're a perpetrator particularly, and I'm going to 172 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: go ahead and throw out this term, Dave. You you 173 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: had mentioned that this young woman knew him, and well 174 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: you said the biblical sense, I'll say, the Abraham Sarah 175 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: SnSe uh, you know that he you know, he knew them. 176 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: One of these young ladies had actually used the term 177 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: sugar daddy, said that this this is my sugar daddy. 178 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: And you know, that implication for me flies to first off, prostitution. 179 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: So you know, I'm thinking, okay, so you're actually saying 180 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: that he's a sugar daddy, you're being paid by him 181 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: for services. And if you're willing to do that to 182 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: take money from this man because he's your quote unquote 183 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: sugar daddy and maybe you're getting favors from him in exchange, 184 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: how many other people do you have in your circle 185 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: that you're also exchanging you know, I don't know, intimate 186 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: acts with maybe drugs, anything like this. So all of 187 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: a sudden, your world kind of opens up when you 188 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: begin to think about who might be involved in a 189 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: case like this. 190 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: Dave, Well, this is in Fossil actually suffered a beating, 191 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 2: and you know, we know we led with this. We 192 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: didn't bury the lead. But the man's thumb was cut 193 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 2: off and it we don't know if it was before 194 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: or after he was dead, but he was beaten, he 195 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: was stabbed, and the physical attack on this man. We'll 196 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: know more as it comes out, but right now we 197 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: do know that he was beaten. And I don't think 198 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: it was just from these women. 199 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: No, I don't, either of you. I think you had mentioned, Dave, 200 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: that there were We've got I know, one named male 201 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: suspect at this point, Tom, and they are apparently a 202 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: couple of other ones. And again I come back to 203 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: the CCTV. 204 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: Uh right, I got I'm Joe actually. 205 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: See you can actually see what appear to be males 206 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: on those CCTV food. 207 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: Well, and I want to apologize. When we started the show, Gang, 208 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 2: I spilled a cup of coffee that went everywhere, and 209 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: it's it's a little disconcerting how we depend so much 210 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: on electronics to this day. And I'm thinking about that 211 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: Joe as I spilled my coffee and I thought these 212 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: people organized a theft that was based on a murder 213 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 2: followed by the hacking of a thumb. I wonder if 214 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: there was a discussion about what would happen to the 215 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: thumb after it severed from the body. Will it start 216 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: to immediately? Like the reason I'm saying the coffee thing 217 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: is I've watched the coffee, the coffee dripping off of 218 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: one of the tables in here, and I'm watching it 219 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: constantly drip. But you know what, since I'm not adding 220 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: any more coffee to that cup this spilled. Once this 221 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: finish is dripping, there won't be anymore. And I'm wondering 222 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: about the thumb because once you sever that thumb from 223 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: the hand, it's now by itself. There's no more blood 224 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: coming into it, It's just going out. How will that 225 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: thumb react over a period of time in terms of 226 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: being able to use it? They used it to open 227 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: up his phone, to open up his apps and financial apps. 228 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: How long will that thumb last? 229 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: This might be one of the best questions you've ever 230 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: posed to me. And I'm glad you opened the door 231 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: for this, because in the morgue. And let me tell 232 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: you what we do, because some people are not aware 233 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: of this. When we pull bodies. Do you remember when 234 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: you were little, mom, Mom would how long you've been 235 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: in the pool by how wrinkled your fans? Come here 236 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: and let me see your hands? Yeah, okay, Well, part 237 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: of that is kind of a dehydration event that's going on. 238 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you're faced with with 239 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: with decomposing tissue is this idea of what's referred to 240 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: kind of one of these ten dollars words of desiccation 241 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: and desiccation is and we've heard about desiccation like desiccated fruit. 242 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: You can have desicated meat, you know that's been dried out, 243 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: like jerky that's desiccated, and if you like with reduced things, 244 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: if you add water to it, it brings brings the 245 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: thing back to life. But with for us and the morgue, 246 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: when we're trying to if we have a drowned body, 247 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: for instance, and we're trying to rehydrate the fingers, it's 248 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: pretty wild. Most people don't know this. What we will 249 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: do is we'll get the sub it's called tissue builder 250 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: and more tissians use it. And when we die. If 251 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: you it's like it's like it's almost like a botox 252 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: on steroids, because as we die, we our eyes begin 253 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: to recede back into our head, all these sorts of things, 254 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: and they will apply tissue builder to literally build tissue up. 255 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: And it's an injectable. Well, we use it in the 256 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: morgue to go right beneath the skin and inject inject 257 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: this tissue builder in there, and it makes the hand 258 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: the fingertip reef swell, so we can actually take it 259 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: and roll a print off of it. The one thing 260 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: you cannot defeat, though, is the process of decomposition, because 261 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: you can continue to put tissue builder in there, but 262 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: this is still going to well, I'll just say it plainly, 263 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: it's still going to rot, by the way, oh yeah yeah, 264 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: And even I think you could possibly retard it a 265 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: little bit if you were this forward thinking, where if 266 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: you took it and placed the thumb in a refrigerator somewhere, 267 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: you're not going to stop decomposition. I think that people 268 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: believe that placing something in a freezer stops it slows it, 269 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: but it's still going down. And by the way, cold 270 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: cold dehydrates things too. I mean, all you got to 271 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: do is literally look at look at a refrigerator. Sometimes, yeah, 272 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: freezer burned. And we also get it on ourselves, you know, 273 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: during the cold weather months. But yeah, it's kind of 274 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: fascinating how you can build this out because what we're 275 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: looking for is to try to enhance those friction ridges 276 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: which are displayed on the surface of the thumb. And 277 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: here's something really cool. I kind of a little aside 278 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: for anybody out there that has and this is kind 279 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: of a horrible connection here, but you'll see where I'm 280 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: going with it. If you want to introduce your child 281 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: to forensics on any level, one of the cool places 282 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: to start is if you will go to a dollar 283 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: store and buy white balloons, white deflated balloons, and get 284 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: an ink pad and take your child's finger and roll 285 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: it on the ink pad, and then take it and 286 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: place have them put their fingerprint down on the balloon, 287 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: on the deflated balloon, remove it, and then blow the 288 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 1: balloon up. All of a sudden, your fingerprint comes to 289 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: life and it expands out and you can see all 290 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: of the little details, all the little friction ridges, the minutia, everything. 291 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: You can classify the print. We use this all the 292 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: time in college. But it's a matter it's a matter 293 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: of expanding it out to the point where you're able 294 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: to actually see those features. But here's the rub. If 295 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: you're going to go to the point of planning to 296 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: do something like this where you're going to obviously kill 297 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: a man, and after you've brutally killed him by the 298 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: way you cut off his thumb, have you thought about 299 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: what's going to happen when everything drives up? My brother, Dave, 300 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: we've got this poor man. I don't care who you are. 301 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: No one deserves to die like he did. I mean, 302 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: this is and when we're about to get into the 303 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: details of this thing, and when I do, you're going 304 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: to be shocked if you think the thumb is bad. 305 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: And I still suspect that's probably something that was done 306 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: post mortem, and I'll tell you why in just a second. 307 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: But there's so much to unpack here. You know, he 308 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: was I think he would found like after four days. 309 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: Well, all right, now, I wanted to ask you about 310 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: this shoe because, not being the forensic person, I've been 311 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: around you, for goodness gracious me, over a well over 312 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: a decade on doing crime related reporting and shows. We've 313 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: been on the same panel so many times and doing 314 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 2: this show talking to you about forensics on and off. 315 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 2: I'm really curious as to how the case is going 316 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: to be investigated from a police standpoint. You mentioned the 317 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: CCTV cameras, and they're going to pull that to find 318 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: out who came in and out of Fossil's apartment. That's 319 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: going to give you an idea of a when he 320 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: was killed, when he died, and who are the possible 321 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: suspects in the killing. And the two women that are 322 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: already arrested and charged. By the way, they've been charged 323 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: with first degree murder and armed felony murder. That's Audrey 324 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray. You've got a nineteen year 325 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: old woman and a twenty two year old woman. These charges. 326 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: Another man, Tommy Whack, What a great name. 327 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: For the same thing. 328 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 2: Man. 329 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: Our brains are. 330 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, he's thirty four and he's been charged in 331 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 2: connection to the case. There are two more people that 332 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: have yet to be named that will be charged. And 333 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: there is somebody talking. Somebody has been filling the police 334 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: in on this whole thing. You have said it many times, 335 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 2: somebody always toss. 336 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: Somebody's gonna roll over on the other person, you know, 337 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: because they're they're steering, they're staring down the barrel of 338 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: going to the penitentiary, right, And I don't like using 339 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: the term prison, by the way. Penitentiary always sounds so 340 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: much more ominous to me. Yeah, but you know what 341 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm saying. I mean, you're talking about you're talking about 342 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: first degree murder and depend upon the state that you're in, 343 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: which I don't think is going to apply here. But 344 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: when you start talking about first degree, there's all these elements. Obviously, 345 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: you know you're looking Some people just say capital, but 346 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: you're looking many times with first degree, Dave. One of 347 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: the elements that's contained in there is a premeditative feature. 348 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: You know, that thinking is going on here, like plotting, planning, 349 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And now you've got you know, 350 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: kind of a you know, a confederacy that's entered into 351 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: the peopling. These guys have entered into a criminal enterproval. 352 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 2: When somebody shows up in your building wearing masks and 353 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: they go to your apartment, that tells you there's your 354 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: pre meditation. They had something heinous online, and that's actually 355 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: what happened to Audrey Miller Taylor Gray captured on camera 356 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: going from his apartment, coming and going from his apartment 357 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: with two other men and wearing masks. So you've got 358 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: the women going in, you've got them coming out. You 359 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: had the women going back in with a couple of 360 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: men going back out. They're wearing the men are wearing masks. 361 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: That's one of the reasons I say, well, pre meditation. 362 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 2: There you go. They know they're cameras. 363 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: Yeah they do. Hey, can I throw in one more 364 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: bit here about electronics that you might be amazed by. 365 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: Not only did they make off with his electronic devices, 366 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: you know we're talking about I think they even mentioned 367 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: the term iPad they did. But here's the other thing 368 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: that they made off with. They made off with a keyfob. 369 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: Dave a keyfob that gives you access to the building. 370 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: So guess what, every time that keyfob is tapped to 371 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: that pad, that initiates a logging event in their electronic 372 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: log So for us in forensics, you know we're talking 373 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: about I think I don't want to get this wrong, 374 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: but I think it was like they found he was 375 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: last known alive like four days prior to they found 376 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: him four days you know, you can take you can 377 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: actually get a measurement. Perhaps it would become tangential, but 378 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: you can get a measurement perhaps relative to how decomposed 379 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: he was, because after four days his body would have 380 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: been showing some signs of decomposition. And every time somebody 381 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: hit that keyfob to get access to the building, They've 382 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: got CCTV of these people removing stuff and from his apartment. 383 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: Joe when because I don't know. Yeah, if you have 384 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: your thumb cut off and you don't treat it, you 385 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: just sit there in the chair drinking coffee with your 386 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: good hand, will you bleed to death? Yeah? And you'll 387 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: be in excruciating pain as well. It would be a 388 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: horrible way to die by what's referred to as exsanguination, 389 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: which is a fancy term that they use to talk 390 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: about bleeding out. So you would exsanguinate and there would 391 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: be a huge pool of blood that was adjacent. The 392 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: only thing that might save you is, you know, like 393 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: I said, these indwelling clotting factors that we have. Could 394 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: the clotting factors outpace or stem the flow, you would 395 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: have to apply direct pressure. I can't imagine anybody that 396 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't grab their thumb with their other hand their stone 397 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: right applaud direct pressure. 398 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm thinking you would, you'd have to do something. 399 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: But anyway, all right, I tell you cut this guy's 400 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: thumb off. In life, let me just tell you this, 401 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: there would be blood. Not to say that there's not 402 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: blood everywhere, but there would be blood everywhere. He would 403 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: have been pumping blood and you would see it all 404 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: over the place. 405 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 2: And I'm thinking that there's a fight, something's going on, 406 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: because it wasn't like he was shot in the head 407 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: from behind and didn't know what was going on and 408 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: they chopped his thumb off and went about their merry way. 409 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: There was an active fight that took place before he died. 410 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: He had multiple injuries, and that's what I was wondering. 411 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: You know, if his thumb was chopped off while he 412 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 2: was alive, it would it be spurting And you have 413 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: to wonder, Okay, the women did refer to him as 414 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: a sugar daddy. I have to wonder if there wasn't 415 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: some animosity, if there wasn't some real hatred going on 416 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: here between these young women and this man who's paying 417 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 2: them for their time and their bodies. But when police 418 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: actually start their investigation, he's already been dead for a 419 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: couple of days. They need to find out who did 420 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: it and it motive is always a good thing when 421 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: you go to trial. They're trying to figure out why 422 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: they did it. Sadly, I think this could have been 423 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: as simple as money and drugs. But what did they 424 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: do to this man? What did these two women and 425 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: any other people involved do to this fifty three year 426 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: old man in his own apartment. 427 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was multiple people. I think they stumped 428 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: this guy out, is essentially what it came down to. 429 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: And let me talk to you about these injuries. Now 430 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: we know that there was an edged weapon involved here. 431 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: He's got multiple stab wounds, including one that's apparently and 432 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: I'll just describe it to you the way I read it. 433 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: He's got an abdominal stab wound that is immediately adjacent 434 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: to the stomach that is so deep that it actually 435 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: goes into his spine. So you're talking about probably a 436 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: person that is laying on their back, because you would 437 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: have to be in such a position to drive an 438 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: edge weapon into somebody's body where it actually communicates with 439 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: the spine. If you're entering it antiily. That's a tremendous 440 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: amount of force, Dave. So he's already in a position 441 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: of submission. And this is what I think, all right. 442 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: I believe he's been kicked, probably punched. He's got multiple 443 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: lacerations to about his head. He's got multiple fractures, Dave, 444 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: to his skull. This I think, when you look at 445 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: the frenzied activity of this, this is consistent. You know 446 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: how I talked about how the thumb was maybe it 447 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: was a torture event relative to thought. No, no, no, no, 448 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: the thumb came afterwards. They were trying to extract information 449 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: for him to get to the honeypot, and the honeypot 450 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: for them was his bank accounts. And maybe, just maybe, 451 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: obviously there's anger involved because you don't go over the 452 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: top like this. You know where one stab wound would 453 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: have sufficed you know what I'm saying. No, that's not 454 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about multiple injuries this guy. 455 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: When the Emmys investigators would have rolled up at the scene, 456 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: this guy would have looked like ground beef. He would 457 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: have been so brutalized at that point in time, and 458 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: there would have been blood everywhere because he's got multiple 459 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: defects in his body, I mean, for lack of a 460 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: holes in his body that have been created by the knife. 461 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: So he's bleeding out in life. So you're going to 462 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: have this huge kind of deposition of blood that'll be 463 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: surrounding the body. And it won't just be around his body. 464 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: If this started somewhere else and he was stabbed in 465 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: another room, because his body was actually found in the bedroom. 466 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: If if this kicked off in another room and he 467 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: stabbed initially, you're gonna have a blood trail that's going 468 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: to lead all over the place. It's this guy's it's 469 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: almost like I don't know if anyone here has ever 470 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: done this, but if you've ever been out in the 471 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: yard and you bumped into a wasp nest, the one 472 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: thing you're trying to do is get away from it. 473 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: When that first sting, well, just imagine you've got these 474 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: people that are attacking him. You want to try to 475 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: put as much distance that initial stab wound or whatever 476 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: it was. You won't try to put as much distance 477 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: between yourself and them. You could have deposition of blood 478 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: throughout the house. I've seen this played out over the 479 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: years in cases I've worked where you'll have contact trace 480 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: blood on the walls where people I saw in Travis 481 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: Alexander actually with Jody Arius. That was a great example 482 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: of this, where you could actually see his movement through 483 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: the house after that horrible person that stabbed this guy 484 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: in the shower and at the scene you can see 485 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: where he kind of walks his hands down the wall. 486 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: He's crawling on the surface of the carpet. Not to 487 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: mention the deposition over the sink, which was absolutely ghastly 488 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: because they had clipped his lung. But you have deposition 489 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: of blood, it's gonna not just be on him the 490 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: floor they it's going to be on the perpetrators as well. 491 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: And I think that's a big, big point to this. 492 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: They're going to have an awareness that they're going to 493 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: be leaving this house with physical evidence on them, and 494 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: they're leaving physical evidence behind. 495 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: They tried to clean it up, and I thought that 496 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: was fascinating the way the police dealt with this in 497 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: their report, and because it clearly states that they had 498 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: a lot of cleaning supplies that have been used and 499 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: they didn't get everything. In particular, there was a footprint 500 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 2: left behind and all I could think of Joe is 501 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: because when we clean something on the surface and it 502 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: looks clean on TV, it shows luminol, you know, using 503 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: the black lights, spraining of luminol. And here it is. 504 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: Now you've got all your stuff right back there. It 505 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: didn't actually get wiped away. Is that a real thing? 506 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: It is a real thing. You just better have your 507 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: camera ready, okay, because you know the luminescence of this thing, 508 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: it only lasts for a few seconds. I think people 509 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: think that. So what you have to have is somebody 510 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: that's going to apply this agent. And it could be Illuminol, 511 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: it could be Blue Star. There's a couple of these 512 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: agents out there. And so you have to have your camera, 513 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: your camera person has to be ready, and you have 514 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: to have your settings on your camera right because you're 515 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: doing this in total darkness, right all right, and so 516 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: and it's only going to lumin u s and the 517 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: you don't want here's the thing from a forensic perspective, 518 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: you don't just want something that looks like a footprint, 519 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: like if it's been left behind by shoe. You want 520 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: something that you can capture where you're going to be 521 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: able to find detail in that shoeprint. That you can 522 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: actually tie back to an individual. And let's just I 523 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: don't know, let's throw a pair of Nikes. And I'm 524 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: not a Nike fan. I don't wear Nikes. I'm going 525 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: to be. 526 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. I don't know. 527 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: They have a variety of different patterns. But when you 528 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: look at shoe patterns, every crime lab has a running 529 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: catalog of current pattern that are out there, and they 530 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: can kind of go through and match these things up, 531 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: and they can look at what family. It's like a 532 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: it looks like genealogy they have. Okay, this is the 533 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: Asex family, this is a Nike family, Adida's family, so forth, 534 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: Brooks so forth and so on, and then they kind 535 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: of track down from there and then they try to 536 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: isolate that. 537 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: So that Joe. Yeah, so that arms. 538 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: The police when they go out, let me see your shoes. 539 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: You know, we're coming in your house. Where's your shoes? 540 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: Because they know that whoever was here in this and 541 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: I think this is probably going to turn out to 542 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: be a true blood bath. They're going to know, you 543 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: know that there'll be some remnant left on the shoe. 544 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: We want to we're going to get a warrant for 545 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: your shoes. We're going to collect your shoes and also 546 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: any kind of clothing that you might have in the house, 547 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: because look, I have no idea what blood type this 548 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,239 Speaker 1: guy was, no idea whatsoever. But if his blood is 549 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: found on them and they can group that blood and 550 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: then do a DNA, I'm not saying it's slam dunk, 551 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: but I'm saying that that's that's going to be a major, 552 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: a major wrinkle thrown into the case for these people. 553 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: Now, when the medical examiner released a report, it's never 554 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 2: the in depth report that you would see or that 555 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 2: you would prepare. This is something you used for the 556 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: media where they've just kind of, you know, gloss over 557 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: things and just try to tell a quick story. Yeah, 558 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 2: but how many of how many of the wounds were 559 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: actually fatal or was it the combination of all of them. 560 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: I think it was the totality of them. Because once 561 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: you start to push push somebody traumatically, you know, one 562 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: one injury is not necessarily going to dictate dictate that 563 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: you're going to die, But you begin to heap, and 564 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: I think that any clinician that's fracticing, even in an 565 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: emergency room, they'll tell you the same thing if you 566 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: just you know, if you just cut your army, but 567 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: oh while you got your while you were cutting your 568 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: arm you fell to the ground, you struck the back 569 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: of your head, and you've got internal bleeding inside your skull. 570 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: All those two things in combination. So it's it's the 571 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: totality of all the injuries. Here's here's the thing that 572 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about. And I hope people don't run screaming 573 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: into the night when I reveal this about myself in 574 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: the morgue, I've I've actually had to remove fingers, okay, 575 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: in the morgue. And I will tell you generally, with 576 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: removal of fingers in the morgue, and we do this 577 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: because bodies are decomposing. And remember I told you we 578 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: try to rehydrate these these these digits and inject them. 579 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: We have to let them sit up for a little while. 580 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: When you do this, it's not something that you injected 581 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: and then you immediately go over and roll a print 582 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: off of it. Dave, did you know that, out of 583 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: all of the appendages on the end of our hands, 584 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: the thumb is the most robust, and I think most 585 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: of us can look at it. It is the most 586 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: difficult to separate from the body. Do you know what 587 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: we what I would use in order to take off. 588 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: We didn't use the scalpel. I used something that you 589 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: could buy days hardware. I used actually a pair of 590 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: printing shears with the hooked you know, the hook beak 591 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: on it, and they were very sharp. We would send 592 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: it out. We had a knife sharpener that would sharpen 593 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: these things for us. But even as sharp as that 594 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: thing was, you just go up to the first knuckle 595 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: and you cut it. And I'm thinking, knowing what I 596 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: know about my involvement, you know, of doing exams in 597 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: the Morgan working with forensic pathologists, I'm wondering, did they 598 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: did they show up with something like this, would that 599 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: specific content or did they did they because this guy 600 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: that he's not a gardener, he lives in an apartment 601 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: in suburban d C. Did they go to the knife 602 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: drawer in the kitchen? Is that what they did? And 603 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: then take a steak because you have to have a 604 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: serrated edge to get into that joint. You got to 605 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: find that. And I don't know, maybe these people are 606 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: anatomical superstars. Maybe they both have PhDs in human anatomy. 607 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. My suspicion is is that they don't. 608 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: I think my question is have they ever participated in 609 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: an action like this before? And the reason I'm making 610 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: a big deal out of this is that contrary to 611 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: which see on television and true crime stories that are fictionalized, 612 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: this is not something that happens every day. This is 613 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: actually what we refer to as an outlier. That's why 614 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: that whoever did this was purposed brutal and in the 615 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: end all they wanted was this man's money, but in 616 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: the end they got his life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 617 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks.