WEBVTT - School of Golf Architecture: Routing with Jeff Mingay, Part 1 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.120 Hey, it's Garrett. Before you get started on today's episode 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.400 of the School of Golf Architecture, I wanted to tell 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.320 you a little about the Friday Egg Newsletter. We send 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.640 it out three days a week Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.160 and it'll keep you up to date on all the 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.320 most important happenings in the golf world. I think Will Knights, 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.560 who writes it, does a really good job, not only 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.240 telling you what you need to know in a concise way, 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.079 but also offering a smart perspective on the events and 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.960 usually a dumb joker too. To subscribe to the Frida 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.880 Egg Newsletter, go to the Friday Egg dot com, scroll 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.080 down a bit to find the yellow banner and enter 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.400 your email address. All right on with the episode. 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.240 The Frida Egg requires a different technique. What you need 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.400 to do is actually square the face so it'll dig 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.040 down underneath that bad lie and propel that ball right 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:48.800 out onto the green. 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:50.279 Here's the thing. 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.879 Playing out of a buried lion a bunker is completely 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.400 different than playing out of a night clean line of 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:56.320 green side bunker. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.480 You'd need to be aggressive on any show weather it's 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:01.680 sitting clean. Frid Egg. 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.680 Well, we've all faced it to the dreaded fried egg 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:07.640 not to be cleared, though it's actually a pretty easy 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:20.640 shot to hit. Welcome back to the Frida Egg Podcast 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.759 and to the fifth edition of the School of Golf Architecture. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.160 I'm Garrett Morrison. A few months ago, the PGA Tour 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.399 player Roberto Castro tweeted out something that got me thinking. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.720 He said, I'm no student of golf architecture, but even still, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.759 I've never once thought about the routing of a golf course. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:40.360 What am I supposed to be comparing it to the 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.520 infinite other routings an architect could have chosen. I don't 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.440 get it. This is a fairly common frustration. I think 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.480 most golf architects will tell you that routing is their 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.880 most important task. At the same time, it's often the 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.320 most difficult aspect of a golf course for a player 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.480 to perceive. So my hope is with this installment of 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.120 the School of Golf Architecture, we can clear up some 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.920 of that confusion. The term routing in golf course design 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.160 refers to how an architect lays out holes on a 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.240 piece of land, or, as Tom Doak puts it, routing 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.240 is choosing the position of teas and greens for every 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.239 golf hole on the course. Sounds pretty simple, but it's 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.600 definitely not here at the Frida Egg. We've already done 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.760 a number of podcasts and articles on routing, and I've 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.079 listed several of those in a post on our website. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:31.600 But this time I'd like to come at the topic 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.440 from a different direction. Typically we've asked how architects go 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.480 about the routing process, but today I'd like to ask 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.840 how we as golfers, can understand a routing when we're 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.480 playing it. This isn't all that easy because routing is 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.359 a kind of invisible art. I mean, we can see 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.320 the architect's craft and how bunkers are shaped, or how 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.600 greens are contoured, or how hazards are arranged to present 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:59.240 us with strategic dilemmas. Those elements are visible and legible. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.680 But a routing is different because once the course is built, 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.360 it's tough to see how it could have been routed otherwise. 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.840 The alternatives are hidden under the finish work, and so 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.400 who can say whether the existing routing is good or not? 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.800 As Roberto Castro said, what are you supposed to compare 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.680 it to? So to learn more about how a golfer 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.160 might read a routing. I called up Jeff Mingay. Jeff 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.040 is one of the most thoughtful golf architects in the 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.240 game today. For almost a decade, he worked with Rod Whitman, 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.520 helping on courses like black Hawk outside of Edmonton and 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.560 Cabot Links on Nova Scotia. In two thousand and nine, 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.320 Jeff started his own firm, and he's done several excellent 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.480 renovations of courses designed by Vernon McCann in the Pacific Northwest. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.920 These include the stunning Victoria Golf Club, as well as Inglewood, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.760 Broadmoor and fur Crest in the Seattle area. Jeff joined 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.760 me from his office in Toronto, and our conversation ended 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.000 up being so rich that I decided to split it 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.200 into two parts. In this first episode, we talk about 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.480 the elements of a good golf course, routing elements that 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:08.600 any player and notice to say. You're just a regular golfer. 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.400 You're playing a new course of course that you haven't 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.400 played before, and as you're playing it, you want to 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.320 figure out whether you think it's routed well or not. 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:20.400 What are some of the things, just off the top 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.240 of your head that you think this golfer should think about. 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.680 Well, one of the big things for me, and of 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:31.560 course it's it's very very much dependent on what type 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.000 of property you know, an architect is working with, But 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:41.400 I think connectivity is very very important the walk between holes, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.240 from one green to the next tee. I feel like 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.200 you're just comfortable when you when you leave a green 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.800 and you know where the next tea is, you know, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.200 something as simple as that. I've been to so many 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.720 golf courses unfortunately, where you leave a green and if 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.000 you hadn't been there previously, you're think where do I 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:06.720 go next? That's an uncomfortable feeling to uh. You know, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.680 I'm a bit of a traditionalist, but even even outside 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.560 being a traditionalist, it's nice to have the next tee 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.200 in the next hole will be the obvious place to go, 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.119 so you get a very nice connectivity and a nice 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:20.760 flow through a property. 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.479 The simplistic take on this would be that the green 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.160 to tea transitions need to be short, but it's not 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.960 necessarily about that, right, So what are what is the 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:34.520 what are the criteria for connectivity between greens and teas? 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.200 Yeah, I mean, ideally you do want a short connection 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.279 between the previous hole and the next tea. But again 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.919 terrain is going to affect that as well. But you 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.920 can still as an architect lay something out so that 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.960 even if there's a distance that you need to that 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.320 you need to traverse to get to the next hole, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:06:01.880 it still makes sense. If that makes sense where that connected. 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:03.520 You know, you're not only thinking about the golf holes, 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.520 but you're actually thinking of the flow between those holes. 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:09.880 You know, in one of the one of the great 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.839 golf courses in the world, for that is Highland's Links, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.240 Stanley Thompson's golf course out and Kate Bretton, you know, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.960 built in late thirties, early forties. He takes sean what 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:23.480 I think is a thirteen kilometer journey through this property, 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.039 which is part of a national park, and there's there's 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.880 a number of significant walks between holes. The gap between 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.320 the the twelfth and the thirteenth, I believe it is 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.520 is something like five hundred yards. But Thompson created a 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.880 beautiful path along the Clybourne River. It's obvious when you 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.359 walk off the back of that green that the trail's 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.360 there and you walk from the twelfth onto the thirteenth, 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.880 that your companions nice opportunity to chat The difference between 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.000 that particular golf hole and say a lot of golf 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:02.280 courses routed through residential community is that again, when you 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.880 walk off the back of the twelve screen, it's obvious 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.880 where you're going, even though it's a couple hundred yards 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.520 walk or three hundred whatever it might be, it's obvious. 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.880 So the flow and the connectivity between holes is still 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.520 is still well done, even though there's quite a distance 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:21.080 between the two holes. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.800 Right that having those transitions well thought out by the 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.400 architect is really important. And one place where I see 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.480 that done really well is at Bandon Trails, where the 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.640 name of the course is focusing in fact on those 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.720 transitions between the holes, and those transitions are beautiful. The 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.360 paths are well tended, and the walks are well thought out. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:42.760 You know. 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.040 To me, when you have one of these long walks 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.680 between a green and a tea, I think it's really great. 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.560 Not only when there's something cool to look at, not 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.880 only when you're traversing cool terrain and there's a view 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.280 or something like that to reward you for the walk 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.520 or give you a reason to do the walk, but 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.240 also like it when it feels like you're going somewhere 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.239 new where you're not just going back through the same 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.160 old territory, you know what I mean, I do. 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.160 And Highland's Links is a very very good example of that, 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.280 because much like bandoned trails are, much like Cyprus Point, 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:21.240 Thompson does a really excellent job of celebrating three or 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.920 four very very distinct environments on that single property that 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.360 was dedicated to the golf course. In that walk between 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.720 twelve and thirteen is one of the exact best examples 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.479 of the world because again he's given you this opportunity 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.960 to enjoy the Clybourne River. You're actually leaving the Wooded 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:45.080 River Valley en route back to the ocean, so you're right, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.600 he's sort of even though there's this cases where you're 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.520 walking through a residential community, you know, you're kind of 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.600 why do I have to walk two or three hundred 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.880 yards between these two holes? This is silly. At Highland's Links, 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.800 you can't wait to do it because again he's putting, 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.240 you know, one of the most beautiful environments in the 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.560 world on display as part of the round of golf. 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.600 Right, and another one I'd like to shout out here 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.080 is Pacific Grove. I don't know if you've been to 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.800 Pacific Grove, it's not exactly near where you are. Have 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.400 you been to Pacific Grove? Oh great, Well, you know 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.719 the back nine there, it's in the dunes. And one 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.600 of my favorite green to tea transitions in the world 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.880 is from eleven green to twelve tee there. So the 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.800 eleventh hole plays down off of the top of the 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.800 hill and the green is benched into the biggest family 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.400 of dunes on the property, right and this is a 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.600 big gathering point in the routing of that back nine, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:43.319 that tall grouping of dunes. The eleventh green is benched 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.680 into there, and the transition to the next tee to 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.480 the twelfth tee is through the back of that green. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.600 You take a path that goes through these beautiful dunes, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:59.040 and then halfway through the walk, the ocean is revealed 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.600 to you. The Pacific go is revealed to you, and 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.440 you walk out onto this tee and suddenly the final 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.160 reveal is the hole, the twelfth hole, a par five 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:12.160 running over amazing terrain along the road next to the ocean, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:17.000 and that is an incredibly dramatic walk. It's its own reward, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.560 and you really do feel like you're going somewhere new 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.160 and to me, it's a long walk. You know, it 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.280 takes a minute to get from the eleventh green to 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.960 the twelfth tee. But it is a feature of the 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.720 golf course. It is not a flaw in the routing. 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:31.280 It's part of the routing. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.559 Anyone who's experienced Thailand's Links as well speaks of that 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:40.440 walk between twelve and thirteen. It's legitimately one of the 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.520 among a bunch of great holes in a bunch of 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.000 great and diverse environments. It is one of the highlights 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:48.760 in the round. As a matter of fact, there was 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:53.920 no golf carts at Highland's Links until the mid nineties, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.679 I think, and one of the things people who are 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.360 familiar with the golf course complain quite a bit about 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.959 was that the new cart path didn't run along the 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.679 Cliburne River between twelve and thirteen, so you actually miss 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:11.840 the experience of walking for five hundred yards between those holes. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.400 And once the carts got introduced to the experience, it 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.560 really became clear that that particular walk was an imp 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.000 important part of the journey around that course. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.679 So that's one good thing for golfers to notice. You know, 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.640 what are the walks like between greens and tees. Are 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.400 they their own reward or are the greens and tees 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.840 close to each other? Does it make sense where you're going. Yeah, 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.240 I think that's really important. Obviously, it gives the round 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.280 a sense that it's not a segmented round, it's a 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.040 whole experience. Let's talk about some other things that make 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.440 for a good routing. You know, I think you and 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.640 I have talked about the use of natural features on 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.920 a property. How is that something that a golfer can 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.000 notice in the course of the round. What would you 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.560 look for when you're thinking about how a routing uses 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:06.319 or maximizes the best natural features of a certain piece 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:06.880 of property. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.040 You know, essentially what a golf course architect is trying 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.440 to do is get the best out sort of the 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.439 best out of the natural assets you're provided on every property. Right, 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.280 you want to take a look at this piece of 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:25.640 ground and use use the existing terrain, the existing vegetation, 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.920 existing views, all those existing things the best way that 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.520 you possibly can. For a couple of reasons. You know, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.559 obviously that's going to minimize construction costs. If you can 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.400 find holes that are just laying on the ground, you know, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:40.599 you don't have to push a lot of dirt er 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.400 eye you have to build too much. That's going to 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.640 be to the benefit of the developer an eventual owner 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.040 in terms of you know, from a business perspective. But 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.920 the other reason to use natural features to the best 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.160 of your ability is that you're going to inevitably arrive 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:01.200 at creating unique holes. You know, our minds can't be 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.040 as creative as nature, but we can be creative in 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.680 terms of how we use terrain to create unique golf 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.920 holes and more importantly, a variety of holes among the eighteen. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.319 So not all golf course sites have amazing natural features. Obviously. 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.440 It's say that there's a course that's just on a 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.560 plain hillside that doesn't necessarily have any humps or bumps 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.319 in it. It's just a slope, it's a hillside you're 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.560 building a course on there. What is a way in 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.960 which a routing can maximize that kind of site. 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.040 Well, you know, you know, as long as it's not 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:42.079 a mountain side, a hillside can actually be quite interesting 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.280 and the routing is probably Wow. The routing is always 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.880 the most important thing in golf course architecture. But the 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.560 routing on a hillside can really take advantage of a 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.320 number of things. You can create downhill holes, uphill holes, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.959 side hill holes. So if we can put that puzzle 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.880 together and utilize that slope in that fashion, we're constantly 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.400 changing direction where one hole we're playing uphill, next all 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.600 we're playing down hill, next all we're playing side hill. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.480 You know, Augusta National jumps in my mind immediately along 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.240 with Stanley Thompson's Capillanam. You know, those are two of 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.360 the great routings on steep sites, you know that are 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.360 steep on a single plane, and they just did a 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.640 wonderful job by by doing exactly what I just described, 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.920 you know, getting those holes to move different directions, to 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.280 change elevation in different ways. You know. So a hillside 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.840 like that, even though it's featureless, can actually end up 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.880 being something special with a smart routing. 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.840 Yeah, and one of the keys is variety in which 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.280 in the ways in which the holes use the land. 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.040 You know, if they're just going back and forth across 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.240 the hillside, you're going to have a boring golf course. 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.960 But if they're going up and down, if they're turning 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.680 different ways on the hillside, if each hole uses it differently. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.920 Then you've got you've got some variety. You're you're maximizing 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.960 that natural feature exactly. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.560 And in the hillside example is interesting too because it 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.040 brings to mind prevailing wind, which is always a huge 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.280 consideration in routing a golf course. So if you take 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.920 that hillside on that single plane and you find those 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.720 holes that change direction, that change elevation in different ways, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.720 you're creating a variety of holes. But then you're actually 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.760 attacking the wind angle in different ways. So now you've 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.160 you've again it elevated that that that sense of variety 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.280 among the holes by not only using the terrain in 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.360 in a variety of ways, but also factoring prevailing wind 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:43.040 and making sure that golfers aren't consistently playing into the wind, 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.760 or consistently playing downwind, or consistently playing sidewind crosswayd I 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.640 should say sorry, you know, which brings Saint Andrews to mind. 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.560 You know, we talk about what a great golf course 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.040 Saint Andrews is and how much it provides us in 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.760 terms of learning about architecture and taking inspiration, but it's 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.920 a bizarre routing because you know, you basically play as 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.480 everyone knows out for nine holes in for nine holes, 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.080 and you know, I've been fortunate to play the old 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.520 course a number of times, and when the wind's India 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.880 on the outgoing nine, I mean you almost want to 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.440 stop after six or seven holes. Then you get out 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.680 to the end and you turn around and you know 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.840 you're going to hit some of the most exciting drives 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.520 of your life downwind. But it's really not a great 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.800 routing because if the wind is a huge factor on 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.520 any given day, it's pretty much a slog out and 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:38.000 a weird, long hitting chip shot course on the way in. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:41.640 You know, going back to the notion of using the 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.080 natural features of the property or maximizing using them as 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.000 much as possible. One of the things that really has 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.440 kind of changed the way that I look at golf 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.440 courses when I walk aside and look at how the 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.040 holes are on the land, is that I try to 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.640 identify what the most prominent natural thing features are, or 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.200 what the most interesting natural features are, whether it's a 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.560 you know, a big bump or or some kind of 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.400 slope or you know, some kind of vegetation or whatever 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.560 it is. You know, whether it's a view right a vista, 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:21.119 I try to see what those prominent features are, and 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.840 then I look at how many holes use it and 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.280 how they use it, whether there are greens there, whether 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.280 there are tea's there, whether you return to that feature 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.240 over the course of the round, not just in one 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.520 part of the round, but say early in the round 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.560 and laid in the round. Do you see that as 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.760 as an important part of the experience of a golf course, 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.400 of a routing, that there's a beautiful or cool natural 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.159 feature and the and the holes return to it several 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:47.840 different times. 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.520 Yes, I mean, and you know, most of the great 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.760 routings you know across the globe feature those congregation points 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.520 you're talking about, and they are really cool from a 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.240 playing perspective, from a spectating perspective especially, I mean you 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.679 see it in Augusta. You know where two green comes 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:12.440 down into that congregation, three leaves, seven comes back, eight 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.640 goes off. I mean for spectating, you know it's it's 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:18.879 it's an amazing way to route a golf course. And 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.480 I'm sure Alistair mackenzie had that in mind actually when 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.840 when they were routing Augusta. Another great congregation routing is 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.359 Oakland Hills. You know where the eleventh comes comes into 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.720 that beautiful hill that's sort of in the center of 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.359 the property. The twelfth goes off it. On the other side, 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.240 the eighth comes into the hill parallel to twelve, and 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.960 then the beautiful part three ninth off the hill with 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:46.439 the clubhouse in the background. Utilizing a single hill like 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.560 that for as many as four or five different holes 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.879 is yeah, it's a it's a real special way to 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:56.960 route a golf course. And again you see it so 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:01.359 many places, from Augusta to Oakland Hills, Romel or you 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.120 know one project that I worked on, Blackhawk Golf Club 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.000 at Edmonton, Alberta. The front nine, you know, the second 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.120 hole plays into a big dooney hill, Third goes off 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.879 of it, fifth comes back, six goes off of it, 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.800 and seven drives over it. You know when Rod Whitman 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.720 routed that golf course, you know, I was there from 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:24.639 early on and I kept thinking about that congregation and 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.000 it's kind of a as we talked about in terms 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.240 of like just flow. It also feels nice that you 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.040 come up with the hill, you go off the hill, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.879 you leave, you come back. It's just as that nice 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:40.480 indescribable feel about it that you're you feel like you're 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.159 playing you know, I've always said I think whether or 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.760 not they actually realize it. I mean, golfers most enjoy 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.000 playing the game in a natural setting, and I think 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:55.200 when you feel like you're actually playing over terrain that's 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.400 always been there, a natural golf course and playing into 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.879 natural features. You know, coming up the hill on nine 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.640 at Cyprus with that big dune behind the green, I mean, 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.080 you know, nobody built that. It's a beautiful natural feature. 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.359 So utilizing those features both for golf features, for backgrounds, 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:18.360 and again that whole congregational idea. You'll see that a 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.399 lot at the best courses in the world. 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.640 So one last subject that I'm interested in for good 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.639 routings or things that golfers can notice when they're trying 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.720 to assess a routing of a golf course. And this 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.359 is one that I've had a really hard time describing. 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.199 So I'm curious about how you would describe it. Do 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.800 the best routings have a kind of sense of narrative 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.800 or a sense of drama or a sense of music 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:48.000 about them from beginning to end? And how would you 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.720 describe that? And what do you think is like the 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:56.120 best metal I just gave three metaphors there, right, story, drama, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:02.159 and music. Do you have any favorite metaphors for describing 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.119 how a routing can kind of like take you on 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:05.240 a journey like that? 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.720 Huh. That's interesting, I mean, because you know, if you're 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:13.879 on a golf course that's basically in the middle of 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:17.800 a city, and you know, you're not visiting different environments 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:21.640 like you do abandoned trails or highlands, lakes or Cyprus point, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:26.359 to find those different pieces of the symphony, so to speak, 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.000 is tougher. But when you get on those properties where 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:35.640 there are again more diverse sections to it, I think, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.399 you know, obviously those environments can create that kind of feeling. 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:42.480 You know. The other thing, too, is that Marion's an 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.600 interesting deal where you know the way that it flows. 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.119 Front nine, you know, you play a couple couple of 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.879 stout holes, come out of the gate up to number four, 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.320 you know, or sorry five, the long part four a 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.399 quite a pedal to the metal. Start at Marion. Then 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.679 you go through this middle section where it's hard to 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.840 believe that there could be so many three hundred and 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.520 thirty yard holes in a row that are so cool, 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:15.320 you know, and then you cross the road. After twelve 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:17.440 you play the little thirteenth and then you better put 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.280 your seatbelt on again from fourteen through eighteen. Like I 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.320 said about the old course, I mean, I don't think 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:28.119 anyone would tell you that that's a great example of 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:32.520 a quote unquote ideal routing, but anyone would love to 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.840 take credit for routing those holes at Marion. So I 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.160