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Speaker 2: The Frida Egg requires a different technique. What you need
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Speaker 3: Here's the thing.
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Speaker 1: Well, we've all faced it to the dreaded fried egg
Speaker 1: not to be cleared, though it's actually a pretty easy
Speaker 1: shot to hit. Welcome back to the Frida Egg Podcast
Speaker 1: and to the fifth edition of the School of Golf Architecture.
Speaker 1: I'm Garrett Morrison. A few months ago, the PGA Tour
Speaker 1: player Roberto Castro tweeted out something that got me thinking.
Speaker 1: He said, I'm no student of golf architecture, but even still,
Speaker 1: I've never once thought about the routing of a golf course.
Speaker 1: What am I supposed to be comparing it to the
Speaker 1: infinite other routings an architect could have chosen. I don't
Speaker 1: get it. This is a fairly common frustration. I think
Speaker 1: most golf architects will tell you that routing is their
Speaker 1: most important task. At the same time, it's often the
Speaker 1: most difficult aspect of a golf course for a player
Speaker 1: to perceive. So my hope is with this installment of
Speaker 1: the School of Golf Architecture, we can clear up some
Speaker 1: of that confusion. The term routing in golf course design
Speaker 1: refers to how an architect lays out holes on a
Speaker 1: piece of land, or, as Tom Doak puts it, routing
Speaker 1: is choosing the position of teas and greens for every
Speaker 1: golf hole on the course. Sounds pretty simple, but it's
Speaker 1: definitely not here at the Frida Egg. We've already done
Speaker 1: a number of podcasts and articles on routing, and I've
Speaker 1: listed several of those in a post on our website.
Speaker 1: But this time I'd like to come at the topic
Speaker 1: from a different direction. Typically we've asked how architects go
Speaker 1: about the routing process, but today I'd like to ask
Speaker 1: how we as golfers, can understand a routing when we're
Speaker 1: playing it. This isn't all that easy because routing is
Speaker 1: a kind of invisible art. I mean, we can see
Speaker 1: the architect's craft and how bunkers are shaped, or how
Speaker 1: greens are contoured, or how hazards are arranged to present
Speaker 1: us with strategic dilemmas. Those elements are visible and legible.
Speaker 1: But a routing is different because once the course is built,
Speaker 1: it's tough to see how it could have been routed otherwise.
Speaker 1: The alternatives are hidden under the finish work, and so
Speaker 1: who can say whether the existing routing is good or not?
Speaker 1: As Roberto Castro said, what are you supposed to compare
Speaker 1: it to? So to learn more about how a golfer
Speaker 1: might read a routing. I called up Jeff Mingay. Jeff
Speaker 1: is one of the most thoughtful golf architects in the
Speaker 1: game today. For almost a decade, he worked with Rod Whitman,
Speaker 1: helping on courses like black Hawk outside of Edmonton and
Speaker 1: Cabot Links on Nova Scotia. In two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: Jeff started his own firm, and he's done several excellent
Speaker 1: renovations of courses designed by Vernon McCann in the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 1: These include the stunning Victoria Golf Club, as well as Inglewood,
Speaker 1: Broadmoor and fur Crest in the Seattle area. Jeff joined
Speaker 1: me from his office in Toronto, and our conversation ended
Speaker 1: up being so rich that I decided to split it
Speaker 1: into two parts. In this first episode, we talk about
Speaker 1: the elements of a good golf course, routing elements that
Speaker 1: any player and notice to say. You're just a regular golfer.
Speaker 1: You're playing a new course of course that you haven't
Speaker 1: played before, and as you're playing it, you want to
Speaker 1: figure out whether you think it's routed well or not.
Speaker 1: What are some of the things, just off the top
Speaker 1: of your head that you think this golfer should think about.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the big things for me, and of
Speaker 3: course it's it's very very much dependent on what type
Speaker 3: of property you know, an architect is working with, But
Speaker 3: I think connectivity is very very important the walk between holes,
Speaker 3: from one green to the next tee. I feel like
Speaker 3: you're just comfortable when you when you leave a green
Speaker 3: and you know where the next tea is, you know,
Speaker 3: something as simple as that. I've been to so many
Speaker 3: golf courses unfortunately, where you leave a green and if
Speaker 3: you hadn't been there previously, you're think where do I
Speaker 3: go next? That's an uncomfortable feeling to uh. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a traditionalist, but even even outside
Speaker 3: being a traditionalist, it's nice to have the next tee
Speaker 3: in the next hole will be the obvious place to go,
Speaker 3: so you get a very nice connectivity and a nice
Speaker 3: flow through a property.
Speaker 1: The simplistic take on this would be that the green
Speaker 1: to tea transitions need to be short, but it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily about that, right, So what are what is the
Speaker 1: what are the criteria for connectivity between greens and teas?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, ideally you do want a short connection
Speaker 3: between the previous hole and the next tea. But again
Speaker 3: terrain is going to affect that as well. But you
Speaker 3: can still as an architect lay something out so that
Speaker 3: even if there's a distance that you need to that
Speaker 3: you need to traverse to get to the next hole,
Speaker 3: it still makes sense. If that makes sense where that connected.
Speaker 3: You know, you're not only thinking about the golf holes,
Speaker 3: but you're actually thinking of the flow between those holes.
Speaker 3: You know, in one of the one of the great
Speaker 3: golf courses in the world, for that is Highland's Links,
Speaker 3: Stanley Thompson's golf course out and Kate Bretton, you know,
Speaker 3: built in late thirties, early forties. He takes sean what
Speaker 3: I think is a thirteen kilometer journey through this property,
Speaker 3: which is part of a national park, and there's there's
Speaker 3: a number of significant walks between holes. The gap between
Speaker 3: the the twelfth and the thirteenth, I believe it is
Speaker 3: is something like five hundred yards. But Thompson created a
Speaker 3: beautiful path along the Clybourne River. It's obvious when you
Speaker 3: walk off the back of that green that the trail's
Speaker 3: there and you walk from the twelfth onto the thirteenth,
Speaker 3: that your companions nice opportunity to chat The difference between
Speaker 3: that particular golf hole and say a lot of golf
Speaker 3: courses routed through residential community is that again, when you
Speaker 3: walk off the back of the twelve screen, it's obvious
Speaker 3: where you're going, even though it's a couple hundred yards
Speaker 3: walk or three hundred whatever it might be, it's obvious.
Speaker 3: So the flow and the connectivity between holes is still
Speaker 3: is still well done, even though there's quite a distance
Speaker 3: between the two holes.
Speaker 1: Right that having those transitions well thought out by the
Speaker 1: architect is really important. And one place where I see
Speaker 1: that done really well is at Bandon Trails, where the
Speaker 1: name of the course is focusing in fact on those
Speaker 1: transitions between the holes, and those transitions are beautiful. The
Speaker 1: paths are well tended, and the walks are well thought out.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: To me, when you have one of these long walks
Speaker 1: between a green and a tea, I think it's really great.
Speaker 1: Not only when there's something cool to look at, not
Speaker 1: only when you're traversing cool terrain and there's a view
Speaker 1: or something like that to reward you for the walk
Speaker 1: or give you a reason to do the walk, but
Speaker 1: also like it when it feels like you're going somewhere
Speaker 1: new where you're not just going back through the same
Speaker 1: old territory, you know what I mean, I do.
Speaker 3: And Highland's Links is a very very good example of that,
Speaker 3: because much like bandoned trails are, much like Cyprus Point,
Speaker 3: Thompson does a really excellent job of celebrating three or
Speaker 3: four very very distinct environments on that single property that
Speaker 3: was dedicated to the golf course. In that walk between
Speaker 3: twelve and thirteen is one of the exact best examples
Speaker 3: of the world because again he's given you this opportunity
Speaker 3: to enjoy the Clybourne River. You're actually leaving the Wooded
Speaker 3: River Valley en route back to the ocean, so you're right,
Speaker 3: he's sort of even though there's this cases where you're
Speaker 3: walking through a residential community, you know, you're kind of
Speaker 3: why do I have to walk two or three hundred
Speaker 3: yards between these two holes? This is silly. At Highland's Links,
Speaker 3: you can't wait to do it because again he's putting,
Speaker 3: you know, one of the most beautiful environments in the
Speaker 3: world on display as part of the round of golf.
Speaker 1: Right, and another one I'd like to shout out here
Speaker 1: is Pacific Grove. I don't know if you've been to
Speaker 1: Pacific Grove, it's not exactly near where you are. Have
Speaker 1: you been to Pacific Grove? Oh great, Well, you know
Speaker 1: the back nine there, it's in the dunes. And one
Speaker 1: of my favorite green to tea transitions in the world
Speaker 1: is from eleven green to twelve tee there. So the
Speaker 1: eleventh hole plays down off of the top of the
Speaker 1: hill and the green is benched into the biggest family
Speaker 1: of dunes on the property, right and this is a
Speaker 1: big gathering point in the routing of that back nine,
Speaker 1: that tall grouping of dunes. The eleventh green is benched
Speaker 1: into there, and the transition to the next tee to
Speaker 1: the twelfth tee is through the back of that green.
Speaker 1: You take a path that goes through these beautiful dunes,
Speaker 1: and then halfway through the walk, the ocean is revealed
Speaker 1: to you. The Pacific go is revealed to you, and
Speaker 1: you walk out onto this tee and suddenly the final
Speaker 1: reveal is the hole, the twelfth hole, a par five
Speaker 1: running over amazing terrain along the road next to the ocean,
Speaker 1: and that is an incredibly dramatic walk. It's its own reward,
Speaker 1: and you really do feel like you're going somewhere new
Speaker 1: and to me, it's a long walk. You know, it
Speaker 1: takes a minute to get from the eleventh green to
Speaker 1: the twelfth tee. But it is a feature of the
Speaker 1: golf course. It is not a flaw in the routing.
Speaker 1: It's part of the routing.
Speaker 3: Anyone who's experienced Thailand's Links as well speaks of that
Speaker 3: walk between twelve and thirteen. It's legitimately one of the
Speaker 3: among a bunch of great holes in a bunch of
Speaker 3: great and diverse environments. It is one of the highlights
Speaker 3: in the round. As a matter of fact, there was
Speaker 3: no golf carts at Highland's Links until the mid nineties,
Speaker 3: I think, and one of the things people who are
Speaker 3: familiar with the golf course complain quite a bit about
Speaker 3: was that the new cart path didn't run along the
Speaker 3: Cliburne River between twelve and thirteen, so you actually miss
Speaker 3: the experience of walking for five hundred yards between those holes.
Speaker 3: And once the carts got introduced to the experience, it
Speaker 3: really became clear that that particular walk was an imp
Speaker 3: important part of the journey around that course.
Speaker 1: So that's one good thing for golfers to notice. You know,
Speaker 1: what are the walks like between greens and tees. Are
Speaker 1: they their own reward or are the greens and tees
Speaker 1: close to each other? Does it make sense where you're going. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's really important. Obviously, it gives the round
Speaker 1: a sense that it's not a segmented round, it's a
Speaker 1: whole experience. Let's talk about some other things that make
Speaker 1: for a good routing. You know, I think you and
Speaker 1: I have talked about the use of natural features on
Speaker 1: a property. How is that something that a golfer can
Speaker 1: notice in the course of the round. What would you
Speaker 1: look for when you're thinking about how a routing uses
Speaker 1: or maximizes the best natural features of a certain piece
Speaker 1: of property.
Speaker 3: You know, essentially what a golf course architect is trying
Speaker 3: to do is get the best out sort of the
Speaker 3: best out of the natural assets you're provided on every property. Right,
Speaker 3: you want to take a look at this piece of
Speaker 3: ground and use use the existing terrain, the existing vegetation,
Speaker 3: existing views, all those existing things the best way that
Speaker 3: you possibly can. For a couple of reasons. You know,
Speaker 3: obviously that's going to minimize construction costs. If you can
Speaker 3: find holes that are just laying on the ground, you know,
Speaker 3: you don't have to push a lot of dirt er
Speaker 3: eye you have to build too much. That's going to
Speaker 3: be to the benefit of the developer an eventual owner
Speaker 3: in terms of you know, from a business perspective. But
Speaker 3: the other reason to use natural features to the best
Speaker 3: of your ability is that you're going to inevitably arrive
Speaker 3: at creating unique holes. You know, our minds can't be
Speaker 3: as creative as nature, but we can be creative in
Speaker 3: terms of how we use terrain to create unique golf
Speaker 3: holes and more importantly, a variety of holes among the eighteen.
Speaker 1: So not all golf course sites have amazing natural features. Obviously.
Speaker 1: It's say that there's a course that's just on a
Speaker 1: plain hillside that doesn't necessarily have any humps or bumps
Speaker 1: in it. It's just a slope, it's a hillside you're
Speaker 1: building a course on there. What is a way in
Speaker 1: which a routing can maximize that kind of site.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, you know, as long as it's not
Speaker 3: a mountain side, a hillside can actually be quite interesting
Speaker 3: and the routing is probably Wow. The routing is always
Speaker 3: the most important thing in golf course architecture. But the
Speaker 3: routing on a hillside can really take advantage of a
Speaker 3: number of things. You can create downhill holes, uphill holes,
Speaker 3: side hill holes. So if we can put that puzzle
Speaker 3: together and utilize that slope in that fashion, we're constantly
Speaker 3: changing direction where one hole we're playing uphill, next all
Speaker 3: we're playing down hill, next all we're playing side hill.
Speaker 3: You know, Augusta National jumps in my mind immediately along
Speaker 3: with Stanley Thompson's Capillanam. You know, those are two of
Speaker 3: the great routings on steep sites, you know that are
Speaker 3: steep on a single plane, and they just did a
Speaker 3: wonderful job by by doing exactly what I just described,
Speaker 3: you know, getting those holes to move different directions, to
Speaker 3: change elevation in different ways. You know. So a hillside
Speaker 3: like that, even though it's featureless, can actually end up
Speaker 3: being something special with a smart routing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one of the keys is variety in which
Speaker 1: in the ways in which the holes use the land.
Speaker 1: You know, if they're just going back and forth across
Speaker 1: the hillside, you're going to have a boring golf course.
Speaker 1: But if they're going up and down, if they're turning
Speaker 1: different ways on the hillside, if each hole uses it differently.
Speaker 1: Then you've got you've got some variety. You're you're maximizing
Speaker 1: that natural feature exactly.
Speaker 3: And in the hillside example is interesting too because it
Speaker 3: brings to mind prevailing wind, which is always a huge
Speaker 3: consideration in routing a golf course. So if you take
Speaker 3: that hillside on that single plane and you find those
Speaker 3: holes that change direction, that change elevation in different ways,
Speaker 3: you're creating a variety of holes. But then you're actually
Speaker 3: attacking the wind angle in different ways. So now you've
Speaker 3: you've again it elevated that that that sense of variety
Speaker 3: among the holes by not only using the terrain in
Speaker 3: in a variety of ways, but also factoring prevailing wind
Speaker 3: and making sure that golfers aren't consistently playing into the wind,
Speaker 3: or consistently playing downwind, or consistently playing sidewind crosswayd I
Speaker 3: should say sorry, you know, which brings Saint Andrews to mind.
Speaker 3: You know, we talk about what a great golf course
Speaker 3: Saint Andrews is and how much it provides us in
Speaker 3: terms of learning about architecture and taking inspiration, but it's
Speaker 3: a bizarre routing because you know, you basically play as
Speaker 3: everyone knows out for nine holes in for nine holes,
Speaker 3: and you know, I've been fortunate to play the old
Speaker 3: course a number of times, and when the wind's India
Speaker 3: on the outgoing nine, I mean you almost want to
Speaker 3: stop after six or seven holes. Then you get out
Speaker 3: to the end and you turn around and you know
Speaker 3: you're going to hit some of the most exciting drives
Speaker 3: of your life downwind. But it's really not a great
Speaker 3: routing because if the wind is a huge factor on
Speaker 3: any given day, it's pretty much a slog out and
Speaker 3: a weird, long hitting chip shot course on the way in.
Speaker 1: You know, going back to the notion of using the
Speaker 1: natural features of the property or maximizing using them as
Speaker 1: much as possible. One of the things that really has
Speaker 1: kind of changed the way that I look at golf
Speaker 1: courses when I walk aside and look at how the
Speaker 1: holes are on the land, is that I try to
Speaker 1: identify what the most prominent natural thing features are, or
Speaker 1: what the most interesting natural features are, whether it's a
Speaker 1: you know, a big bump or or some kind of
Speaker 1: slope or you know, some kind of vegetation or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. You know, whether it's a view right a vista,
Speaker 1: I try to see what those prominent features are, and
Speaker 1: then I look at how many holes use it and
Speaker 1: how they use it, whether there are greens there, whether
Speaker 1: there are tea's there, whether you return to that feature
Speaker 1: over the course of the round, not just in one
Speaker 1: part of the round, but say early in the round
Speaker 1: and laid in the round. Do you see that as
Speaker 1: as an important part of the experience of a golf course,
Speaker 1: of a routing, that there's a beautiful or cool natural
Speaker 1: feature and the and the holes return to it several
Speaker 1: different times.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, and you know, most of the great
Speaker 3: routings you know across the globe feature those congregation points
Speaker 3: you're talking about, and they are really cool from a
Speaker 3: playing perspective, from a spectating perspective especially, I mean you
Speaker 3: see it in Augusta. You know where two green comes
Speaker 3: down into that congregation, three leaves, seven comes back, eight
Speaker 3: goes off. I mean for spectating, you know it's it's
Speaker 3: it's an amazing way to route a golf course. And
Speaker 3: I'm sure Alistair mackenzie had that in mind actually when
Speaker 3: when they were routing Augusta. Another great congregation routing is
Speaker 3: Oakland Hills. You know where the eleventh comes comes into
Speaker 3: that beautiful hill that's sort of in the center of
Speaker 3: the property. The twelfth goes off it. On the other side,
Speaker 3: the eighth comes into the hill parallel to twelve, and
Speaker 3: then the beautiful part three ninth off the hill with
Speaker 3: the clubhouse in the background. Utilizing a single hill like
Speaker 3: that for as many as four or five different holes
Speaker 3: is yeah, it's a it's a real special way to
Speaker 3: route a golf course. And again you see it so
Speaker 3: many places, from Augusta to Oakland Hills, Romel or you
Speaker 3: know one project that I worked on, Blackhawk Golf Club
Speaker 3: at Edmonton, Alberta. The front nine, you know, the second
Speaker 3: hole plays into a big dooney hill, Third goes off
Speaker 3: of it, fifth comes back, six goes off of it,
Speaker 3: and seven drives over it. You know when Rod Whitman
Speaker 3: routed that golf course, you know, I was there from
Speaker 3: early on and I kept thinking about that congregation and
Speaker 3: it's kind of a as we talked about in terms
Speaker 3: of like just flow. It also feels nice that you
Speaker 3: come up with the hill, you go off the hill,
Speaker 3: you leave, you come back. It's just as that nice
Speaker 3: indescribable feel about it that you're you feel like you're
Speaker 3: playing you know, I've always said I think whether or
Speaker 3: not they actually realize it. I mean, golfers most enjoy
Speaker 3: playing the game in a natural setting, and I think
Speaker 3: when you feel like you're actually playing over terrain that's
Speaker 3: always been there, a natural golf course and playing into
Speaker 3: natural features. You know, coming up the hill on nine
Speaker 3: at Cyprus with that big dune behind the green, I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, nobody built that. It's a beautiful natural feature.
Speaker 3: So utilizing those features both for golf features, for backgrounds,
Speaker 3: and again that whole congregational idea. You'll see that a
Speaker 3: lot at the best courses in the world.
Speaker 1: So one last subject that I'm interested in for good
Speaker 1: routings or things that golfers can notice when they're trying
Speaker 1: to assess a routing of a golf course. And this
Speaker 1: is one that I've had a really hard time describing.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious about how you would describe it. Do
Speaker 1: the best routings have a kind of sense of narrative
Speaker 1: or a sense of drama or a sense of music
Speaker 1: about them from beginning to end? And how would you
Speaker 1: describe that? And what do you think is like the
Speaker 1: best metal I just gave three metaphors there, right, story, drama,
Speaker 1: and music. Do you have any favorite metaphors for describing
Speaker 1: how a routing can kind of like take you on
Speaker 1: a journey like that?
Speaker 3: Huh. That's interesting, I mean, because you know, if you're
Speaker 3: on a golf course that's basically in the middle of
Speaker 3: a city, and you know, you're not visiting different environments
Speaker 3: like you do abandoned trails or highlands, lakes or Cyprus point,
Speaker 3: to find those different pieces of the symphony, so to speak,
Speaker 3: is tougher. But when you get on those properties where
Speaker 3: there are again more diverse sections to it, I think,
Speaker 3: you know, obviously those environments can create that kind of feeling.
Speaker 3: You know. The other thing, too, is that Marion's an
Speaker 3: interesting deal where you know the way that it flows.
Speaker 3: Front nine, you know, you play a couple couple of
Speaker 3: stout holes, come out of the gate up to number four,
Speaker 3: you know, or sorry five, the long part four a
Speaker 3: quite a pedal to the metal. Start at Marion. Then
Speaker 3: you go through this middle section where it's hard to
Speaker 3: believe that there could be so many three hundred and
Speaker 3: thirty yard holes in a row that are so cool,
Speaker 3: you know, and then you cross the road. After twelve
Speaker 3: you play the little thirteenth and then you better put
Speaker 3: your seatbelt on again from fourteen through eighteen. Like I
Speaker 3: said about the old course, I mean, I don't think
Speaker 3: anyone would tell you that that's a great example of
Speaker 3: a quote unquote ideal routing, but anyone would love to
Speaker 3: take credit for routing those holes at Marion. So I
Speaker 3: guess we're lucky in the sense that all the great
Speaker 3: courses are like different albums or different books or different songs.
Speaker 3: I mean, thank goodness, you know, they all kind of
Speaker 3: have their first tee to home green story. But I
Speaker 3: guess the fact that we can't really sum it up
Speaker 3: into one little tight box is a good thing because
Speaker 3: it's it's hard to explain it's so personal to each
Speaker 3: site in each golf course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Marion is an interesting example. Obviously, it's it's famously
Speaker 1: a tight property. But but somehow or another, the routing
Speaker 1: makes it feel like it's it's not constrained in any way.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a sense of freedom, and I
Speaker 1: think there is also a sense of drama because you
Speaker 1: reach a crescendo at the quarry right you you visit
Speaker 1: the most stunning kind of natural feature on that property
Speaker 1: as the round gets to its apex, and so there
Speaker 1: is to me a kind of sense of drama. That's
Speaker 1: where it really ramps up. And and those closing holes
Speaker 1: are quite dramatic and have created a lot of drama
Speaker 1: and the tournaments that have been played there they are.
Speaker 3: And that's another good point too, is a routing like
Speaker 3: Marion getting you to that that finale that you know
Speaker 3: is there. I mean, there's another great example of taking,
Speaker 3: you know, a relatively small feature of the site, the
Speaker 3: old quarry at Marion, and utilizing it so perfectly for
Speaker 3: the final three holes. Incredible. Frankly, Pete Died did the
Speaker 3: same thing at Sawgrass, you know, to dig a couple
Speaker 3: of lakes there and then come up with sixteen seventeen
Speaker 3: eighteen as your finishing piece is great. But you know,
Speaker 3: and he would he would probably be the first to
Speaker 3: admit it, mister Die, that you know he learned that
Speaker 3: lesson from places like Marion, from places like Pebble Beach,
Speaker 3: from places like Cyprus Point, where you know, those those
Speaker 3: cliff sides were so well utilized. And again the quarry
Speaker 3: at Marion bringing you to that kind of conclusion is
Speaker 3: another consistent I think among many of the great golf
Speaker 3: courses in the world where the architects did a really,
Speaker 3: really wonderful job with bringing you to that most exciting
Speaker 3: place right at the end.
Speaker 1: So, just to sum it up, Jeff and I touched
Speaker 1: on three basic things you can keep track of when
Speaker 1: you're looking at the routing of a golf course. One
Speaker 1: the link between a green and the next tee? Is
Speaker 1: it clear where you need to go? And if the
Speaker 1: walk is longer, is there something cool about it? In
Speaker 1: other words, do the tee to green transitions give the
Speaker 1: course a sense of coherence and flow? Two the use
Speaker 1: of the property's features. What are the best assets of
Speaker 1: the landscape and do the holes maximize those assets by
Speaker 1: using them frequently and with variety. Three And admittedly this
Speaker 1: is more of a hobby horse of mine than it
Speaker 1: is Jeff's. But does the routing have a narrative to it?
Speaker 1: Does it take you through a kind of story that
Speaker 1: reaches a climax near the end. In the rest of
Speaker 1: our conversation, Jeff and I dug into a few examples
Speaker 1: of famous golf course routings and how they embody or
Speaker 1: sometimes don't embody, those principles. That's next on the school
Speaker 1: a golf architecture m hm
Speaker 2: Hm