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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And

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Speaker 1: today we're gonna be talking about creeps. Yes, about creeps, creepiness,

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Speaker 1: the nature of creepiness, and what makes creeps creepy. And

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Speaker 1: maybe in the end we will find a way to

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Speaker 1: love the creep too, because there's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a creep in all of us. Yes, this will give

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Speaker 1: everyone the chance to connect with their inner creep. And

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Speaker 1: I think also like rethink their creep analysis. They're creep

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Speaker 1: judgments that they've passed uh uh in in previous times. Okay, so, Robert,

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Speaker 1: I want to test our intuitions a little bit about

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Speaker 1: creepiness by running a few scenarios by you. Because creep

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Speaker 1: creep is a word we apply intuitively, creepy is a

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Speaker 1: word we imply intuitively. But sometimes it's hard to make

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Speaker 1: a distinction, like what is creeping us? What is a

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Speaker 1: creep and how is it different than like a scary

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Speaker 1: guy or a terrifying situation? Yeah, a creep a creeper

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Speaker 1: if you will creeping uh is it's sometimes referred. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me know what you think about this. You're standing

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Speaker 1: in line at the bank and a man with a

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Speaker 1: hunting rifle runs in the door, aims the rifle straight

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Speaker 1: at your face and shouts at everybody in the room freeze,

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Speaker 1: hands up. Is that creepy? Not creepy? That's terrifying, scary, traumatic,

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Speaker 1: but not creepy. I totally agree, not creepy at all. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's another one. You go out for a walk with

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Speaker 1: your dog and when you get back home, somebody has

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Speaker 1: taped a handwritten note to your front door that says

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Speaker 1: why do you take such long walks? That I could

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Speaker 1: see that being? That is bull's eye creepy to me.

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Speaker 1: It's but I wonder if that goes beyond creepy and

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Speaker 1: it's like outright scary because under under what scenario is

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Speaker 1: that a valid act by somebody? Is that under under

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Speaker 1: for what reason would that be possibly be okay for

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Speaker 1: someone to leave that note on your door? Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: creepy things aren't necessarily okay. I mean we're just testing

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Speaker 1: our intuitions. Come on, surely your gut says that's creepy?

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Speaker 1: Mine does? I've I think that would be like hard creepy.

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Speaker 1: This would be this would be creepy bordering on frightening,

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Speaker 1: because I'm gonna immediately be concerned about my surroundings. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be I'm gonna start looking for dead rabbits and

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Speaker 1: uh and so forth. Okay, I got another one. Your

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Speaker 1: company has been downsizing recently. You arrive at work one

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Speaker 1: day to receive an email from your boss that just says,

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Speaker 1: please come see me in my office first thing this morning.

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Speaker 1: Is that creepy? It's not creepy. Certainly anxiety producing, but

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Speaker 1: not not creepy, right story even, but not creepy. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's something that can be a strong indicator of anxiety.

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Speaker 1: It can even be kind of ambiguous in a way,

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Speaker 1: but that's not creepy. Okay. So how about you're at

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Speaker 1: a funeral for a close friends recently dead relative, and

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Speaker 1: as you approach the open casket to pay your risk specs,

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Speaker 1: the person in the casket opens her eyes and starts screaming.

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Speaker 1: Not creepy, No, No, that's outright terrifying and I'm probably

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Speaker 1: losing my mind, right, Okay, one more. You're on a

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Speaker 1: train or a bus, uh, and a man comes and

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Speaker 1: sits down next to you. He begins rummaging around in

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Speaker 1: his backpack, and out of the backpack he produces a

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Speaker 1: doll and then sits there in his seat brushing the

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Speaker 1: doll's hair. Is that creepy? I think it depends entirely

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Speaker 1: how into the brushing he is. Like, because I've been

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Speaker 1: having written The Train quite a bit, you do see

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Speaker 1: some strange behaviors now and then, but sometimes it's just

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Speaker 1: the the attitude of the person can sell you on it.

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Speaker 1: So I can easily imagine a dude who's just kind

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Speaker 1: of like tired, and he like pulls a doll out

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Speaker 1: and he's combing its hair. And if the vibe is

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Speaker 1: this is just something this guy does every day. He

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Speaker 1: has to do it. I don't know why. Maybe his

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Speaker 1: for his job, he has to have this this doll

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Speaker 1: properly groomed. Right, Maybe he's a professional doll groomer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so if it If that's the case, I would say

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Speaker 1: not creepy. However, if he's getting it out and like

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Speaker 1: lovingly stroking its hair and whispering to it while he

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Speaker 1: u while he grooms it, then yes, that would be creepy. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What if he's just singing a little bit. Yeah, singing

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Speaker 1: does that enhance the creepiness if it's like a lullaby?

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Speaker 1: I guess? Yeah? What if he's singing bon Jovi? Less creepy?

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Speaker 1: I guess. This is the thing. It gets difficult and

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Speaker 1: you start you're you're trying to find the figure out

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Speaker 1: the why behind a scenario. What's up with this individual?

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Speaker 1: Why are they doing the thing that they're doing, and

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Speaker 1: why are they behaving like this? Why do they dressed

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Speaker 1: like this? And your mind's just just crunching it, processing

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Speaker 1: and as fast as as as it can, and then

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Speaker 1: you have to decide creepy or not creepy? Right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so all these things that they're gonna get some kind

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Speaker 1: of fear response like we talked about, but they're not

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Speaker 1: all creepy. And likewise, the creep as a person is

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Speaker 1: a particular figure, but different than a monster, or maybe

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Speaker 1: different than a dangerous person or a scary guy or

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Speaker 1: a predator. Even though we very strongly have this idea

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Speaker 1: of what a creep is, though it may be very

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Speaker 1: ambiguous to us. In the big hazy thing, right, and

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Speaker 1: the creep, especially in fiction, the creep may turn out

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Speaker 1: to be monster. The creep may turn out to be hero.

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Speaker 1: And example that instantly comes to mind Boo Radley from

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Speaker 1: To Kill a Mockingbird. Oh, perfect creepy character. But he

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Speaker 1: ends up it ends up not being the threat and

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Speaker 1: ends up saving the day. So you think he's a creep,

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Speaker 1: but then he turns out to be a good guy.

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Speaker 1: Is he still a creep after you know he's a

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Speaker 1: good guy? No, because there, for the most part not,

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Speaker 1: I would guess, because the threat analysis has been fully computated.

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Speaker 1: He's proven himself to be a non creep. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: let's get into the literary history of the creep a

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Speaker 1: little bit. First of all, I was wondering how long

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Speaker 1: has the word creepy been in English. It it seems

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Speaker 1: to get a lot more mileage than it ever has before,

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Speaker 1: but from what I could tell, it dates back at

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Speaker 1: least to Charles Dickens, who some sources have alleged coined

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Speaker 1: the term, and it appears in David Copperfield. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever read the copper Field? I never have? Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty nine, Dickens writes of a character named Mrs Gummage,

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Speaker 1: which is a great creepy name. Dickens as great at

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Speaker 1: those quote. She was constantly complaining of the cold and

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Speaker 1: of its occasioning a visitation in her back, which she

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Speaker 1: called the creeps. Okay, so it's not it. It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit removed from our current usage of the word.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. So uh, this means like a physical sensation,

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Speaker 1: and it's mostly unrelated to the way we use it now.

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Speaker 1: But I do want to make a side note that Dickens,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is full of great creeps, like of

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Speaker 1: any author in English, there's creeps everywhere and they're great.

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Speaker 1: Who's the child catcher in Oliver Oliver? In Oliver Twist,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember childcatcher? Yeah, or I keep there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of I remember in Uh. In Oliver Twist,

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Speaker 1: it describes describes Noah Claypool as eel like I think

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Speaker 1: he's a creep. Man, I'm blanking on the name of

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Speaker 1: this character. I'm sure someone will remind Yeah. But by now,

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Speaker 1: of course, the creeps, creepiness and of course the person

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Speaker 1: who is a creep has come to mean something very different,

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Speaker 1: right And from my experience, the concept of creepiness is

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Speaker 1: utterly pervasive and everyday conversation, we we talk about it

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Speaker 1: all the time. The creep is a standard type of

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Speaker 1: person we encounter and under the wrong circumstances or with

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Speaker 1: a bit of bad luck or awkward behavior, we are

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Speaker 1: all ourselves sometimes the creep. Yeah. I think this is

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Speaker 1: an important thing to drive home. No matter how handsome

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Speaker 1: or suave you happen to think you are, no matter

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Speaker 1: how harmless you think your appearance or demeanor happens to be,

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Speaker 1: no matter how chill you are, you have come off

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Speaker 1: as a creep at some point in the past. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: you have acted weird. We've all acted weird. Sometimes it's creepy,

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Speaker 1: but we definitely do live in the age of creepiness.

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Speaker 1: This is something that a couple of writers were going

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Speaker 1: to talk about today have alluded to. But I decided

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Speaker 1: to do a Google Ingram search for creepy, you know

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Speaker 1: the Ingram viewer where it'll it'll chart the usage of

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Speaker 1: a word about printed literature across a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: And so I looked at the word creepy from the

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Speaker 1: r eighteen hundred until two thousand eight, and it's interesting

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Speaker 1: there's sort of a rising and falling bell curve of

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Speaker 1: creepy usage from about nineteen hundred to nineteen forty and

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Speaker 1: then creepy goes dormant through the fifties and sixties. I

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Speaker 1: wonder why that is. But then around nineteen seventy nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty it begins to rise again. And then there is

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Speaker 1: this dramatic, precipitous spike way above the norm coming up

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Speaker 1: to the two thousand's. So for some reason, the millennium

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Speaker 1: is the millennium of creepiness. Well that sounds about right.

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Speaker 1: But maybe we can get a better idea of what

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Speaker 1: the creep is, who the creep is if we just

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Speaker 1: look at some great examples of creeps for for context. Sure, um,

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Speaker 1: while start off by mentioning that the name of the

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Speaker 1: character from Oliver Twist came to mind, and that's Fagan. Fagan. Oh,

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Speaker 1: of course Fagan a creep. Though I don't know if

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Speaker 1: Fagan's a creep. Noah Claypools are creep, but Fagan, I remember, see.

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Speaker 1: I remember being in a musical, like a community theater

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Speaker 1: musical version of Oliver and our our drama teacher played

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Speaker 1: Fagan and I felt like he did a very creepy

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Speaker 1: take on Fagan. So that's the one that's that's stuck

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Speaker 1: in my mind. He was great at it. Wait, I

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Speaker 1: guess when you think about the details of it, it

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Speaker 1: is truly creepy. He's this guy who collects an army

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Speaker 1: of little children who he Yeah, yeah, he's kind of

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Speaker 1: a creep. But but certainly there are some more iconic

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Speaker 1: creeps that instantly come to mind. So have you seen

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Speaker 1: the Lonely Island video for Do the Creep? Yes? Was

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Speaker 1: it snl or uh It's well, they sort of came

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Speaker 1: out of snl okay and then they did this album

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Speaker 1: with all these videos. Yeah. Yeah, it's got uh Andy

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Speaker 1: Sandberg and Nicki Minaj and Nicki Minaj that's a guest

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Speaker 1: stuff spot in it as a female creep, which we

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Speaker 1: can come back to. But then also John Waters introduces

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Speaker 1: it and they're kind of dressed like young John Waters

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Speaker 1: in this video as they're they're doing the creek, they're

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Speaker 1: they're taking on these anerisms of a very creepy male individual,

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Speaker 1: a guy who's got a pencil mustache and invades your

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Speaker 1: personal space. Yeah, it will come back to John Waters

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Speaker 1: in a in a bit too. But I feel like

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Speaker 1: he's an individual who has embraced his creepiness and thus

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Speaker 1: transcended it. Yes, like he's adorable now. Yeah, so it's

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Speaker 1: kind of an interesting area there. In a way, it's

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Speaker 1: like the more you know a creep either either it's

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Speaker 1: going to firmly establish their creepiness or it's going to

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Speaker 1: dissolve them a bit and dissolve the creepiness. Right, nobody

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Speaker 1: ever remains the same amount of creepy they seemed at first.

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Speaker 1: It either gets better or gets worse. That's that's some

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Speaker 1: sound sound advice there. Um for me. There's a well,

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Speaker 1: there's an actor by the name of Lucky Yates who

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Speaker 1: some of the anyone who listens or rather watches Archer

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Speaker 1: maybe familiar with with him because he does one of

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Speaker 1: the voices on that show. Does Dr Creeker does a

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Speaker 1: doctor of character. But he he also has a character,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know that he does this character anymore,

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Speaker 1: but he did for a while here in the Atlanta area.

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Speaker 1: He did this character of the Fiend and the theme

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Speaker 1: would would host various events such as a late night

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Speaker 1: horror creepy show, puppet show, and various puppet slams in

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Speaker 1: the area. And uh and this was kind of a

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Speaker 1: like imagine like a little bit of Vincent Price, a

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Speaker 1: little bit of little Richard all sort of dashed together

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Speaker 1: and that was the fiend. This does not sound like

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Speaker 1: a creep to me. This sounds like a like a

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Speaker 1: a suave dude, suave but a little threatening like kind

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Speaker 1: of that's the thing. You're not really sure if he's threatening,

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Speaker 1: but he certainly came off as uh is a little

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Speaker 1: bit creepy, kind of a pencil than mustache going on,

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Speaker 1: as I recall, and also kind of a a pan

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Speaker 1: sexual aura. Um. Other characters, well, first of all, most characters.

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Speaker 1: I think that Peter Lori play Peter Lori, who what

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Speaker 1: a great creep he was in Casablanca as he creep? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's kind of a creep. Yeah, I have a hard

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Speaker 1: time remembering him not but I guess in like Twenty

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Speaker 1: Leagues under the Sea wasn't a creep and uh, and

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Speaker 1: I guess in some movies he plays more of an

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Speaker 1: outright monster type character. This is true of some actors.

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Speaker 1: There are people who get type cast as creeps. And

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Speaker 1: I would have to introduce the name of a guy

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Speaker 1: who I greatly love and respect as an actor, but

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Speaker 1: he's always a creep. Tom Noonan God bless him. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: tom noonon Is is always I can't think of a

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Speaker 1: non creepy tom Noon and Roll, and I wonder what

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Speaker 1: it's like to be tom Noon. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about him personally. I'm sure he is just

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Speaker 1: a wonderfully sweet, great guy, you know. I I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine that he's actually a creep in real life. But

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Speaker 1: what's it like to be that guy who's always cast

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Speaker 1: as a creep because he's perfect for it? Right? Because

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Speaker 1: he was the bad guy in RoboCop two, the drug

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Speaker 1: dealer who ends up inside the machine. He was the

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Speaker 1: great Red Dragon in Man Hunter? Yes, who else was?

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Speaker 1: He's in an episode of The X Files where he

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Speaker 1: plays like a child murderer. He was a creepy priest

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Speaker 1: on an episode of Louis Yeah, and he's also in

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Speaker 1: House of the Devil, playing a world endingly creepy role. Well.

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Speaker 1: One thing is I guess interesting to point out about

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Speaker 1: character actors is character actors often have kind of a

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Speaker 1: unique look, maybe even a slightly grotesque look. And then

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Speaker 1: that is that is blown evermore out of a proportion

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Speaker 1: by either acting opposite perfect looking starring humanoid individuals, or

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Speaker 1: just you know, having increasingly creepy settings makeup etcetera. So

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Speaker 1: I've got a creep for us. Yeah. Uh. One of

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Speaker 1: the writers that we were reading in preparation for this episode,

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Speaker 1: a cultural critic named Adam Kotsko, wrote this piece called

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Speaker 1: nice to Meet You in New Inquiry, and he expanded

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Speaker 1: it into a book about creepiness. But he calls attention

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Speaker 1: to the Burger King King. Oh yes, right, the advertising

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Speaker 1: phenomenon beginning in like the mid two thousands of the

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Speaker 1: Creepy King, which is Burger King's lurking mascot. I don't know, Robert,

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Speaker 1: I put some links in the in our notes to

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Speaker 1: these videos. Did you go back and watch these? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we watched at least one of them. I remember them

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Speaker 1: making the rounds back back in the day, and everyone

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Speaker 1: embraced this creep factor exactly, so they got great word

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Speaker 1: of mouth. It was sort of a viral marketing sensation,

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Speaker 1: except I don't think it made anybody want to eat

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Speaker 1: Burger King. But the most common version of this type

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Speaker 1: of commercial is somebody gets freaked out because they discover

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Speaker 1: the Burger King. Who's this guy in a king outfit

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Speaker 1: with a unmoving, smiling king mask. The mask itself is

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Speaker 1: kind of reminiscent of the the anonymous v for Vendetta

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Speaker 1: mask sort of, except it's got this big grin. Um, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's pretty awful. But they discovered somebody in the

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Speaker 1: commercial discovers the King is like watching them or leaning

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Speaker 1: over their bed or staring at them from somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: they get creeped out rightly because the King is creepy.

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Speaker 1: But then they're anxiety is calmed because the King offers

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Speaker 1: them some disgusting Burger King products. Uh, well, tell me this.

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Speaker 1: I know we're both fans of of this particular film,

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Speaker 1: or at least treatments of this film. But Torgo from

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Speaker 1: Manos the Hands of Faith, Torgo is the ultimate creep.

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Speaker 1: If there is one creep to list, it is Torgo.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't seen this movie, it was a it

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Speaker 1: was a great hit on Mystery Science Theater three thousand.

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Speaker 1: But it was a film produced in El Paso, Texas

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, and it has this character in

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Speaker 1: it who's kind of I mean, what can you You

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Speaker 1: don't know much about him in the movie. He's just

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Speaker 1: a guy with very large knees who kind of talks

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Speaker 1: like this. That's a good Torgo, like apparently he was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a satyr. I think so, but it's

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Speaker 1: not really. The sader effects are not great. So he

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Speaker 1: just looks like he has enormous weird legs and he

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Speaker 1: shuffles about and he's helpful sometimes, you know, but very

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Speaker 1: very very cree be. Yeah, never tally inappropriate behavior, right,

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Speaker 1: and but never completely feels like a threat. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: later in the but early on, like I'm thinking, when

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Speaker 1: like the Famili's first encounters him, he's he's just carrying luggage, yes,

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Speaker 1: and just eating up lots of lots of screen time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we we can't do too manymore, but at one I

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Speaker 1: gotta mention you ever seen Crinkles, the clown from the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties post sugar rice Crinkles commercial. I have not,

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Speaker 1: and I knows you put the now I noticed you

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Speaker 1: put the link in the notes and I didn't click

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Speaker 1: on it. Well, that that's worth a look. It's this

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Speaker 1: clown who's eating cereal. And I think part of what's

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Speaker 1: creepy about it is the production of the commercial. So

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Speaker 1: it's not even all the clown clowns get a bad rap.

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Speaker 1: We can talk about clowns, but I have to admit

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Speaker 1: he is kind of creepy looking, but it's the production

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Speaker 1: of the commercial that does not have like rapid editing

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Speaker 1: like commercials do now. So there are scenes of this

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Speaker 1: clown just eating cereal and taking a long time to

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Speaker 1: say anything after he has a bite, and it's quite creepy.

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Speaker 1: I think the silence makes it creepier. Okay, well, I

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Speaker 1: will definitely have to watch that and creep myself out. Um.

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Speaker 1: One that comes to my mind instantly too is riff Raff,

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Speaker 1: played by Richard O'Brien in Rocky HRR Picture Show. And

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Speaker 1: I guess really most characters that Richard O'Brien plays fall

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Speaker 1: into that creepy role because he's see another Tom Noonan type. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he has this natural Will you remember Dark City he

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Speaker 1: played the what Mr Hand as one of the strangers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he's he definitely pops up in my mind. Is

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Speaker 1: both a riff Raff is a creepy character, but then

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Speaker 1: Richard O'Brien himself is kind of I think I think

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Speaker 1: it would be fair to say he is a proud

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Speaker 1: creep as well. And uh you know, I also from

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Speaker 1: a personal note, I have to think back to the

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Speaker 1: monster science videos that have done here for how stuff

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Speaker 1: works where I play the character Dr Anton Jessup. Um, wait,

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Speaker 1: that was you that. I know it was such a

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Speaker 1: performance it's hard, too hard to believe. But yes, that

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Speaker 1: was actually made Joe, and uh, you know, and it's

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Speaker 1: a very two dimensional character. I didn't when really that's

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Speaker 1: the thing about a creep. A creep is two dimensional.

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Speaker 1: Once they become three dimensional, there's something infinitely worse or

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Speaker 1: something infinitely more human. But but we did try to

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Speaker 1: implement greasy hair, overly enthusiastic nature, poor posture, excessive gesticulation,

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Speaker 1: excessive smiling, lack of boundaries, pale skin, obsessiveness. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and as I say these things, I also have to realize,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of these are they're not They're not

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Speaker 1: too far removed, probably from how I am in real life.

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Speaker 1: So I have to come back to what we said

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Speaker 1: earlier about no matter you know, how you think you

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Speaker 1: carry yourself in in our world, you've probably come off

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Speaker 1: as a creeper. So whatever I'm trying to achieve with

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Speaker 1: Dr Anton Jessup, people have probably seen me in public

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Speaker 1: and thought exactly the same thing with me. So in

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Speaker 1: many cases, it may be the difference between normal person

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Speaker 1: and a creep is just a difference in some mannerisms

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Speaker 1: and grooming. Yeah, and I think the who is observing

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Speaker 1: you and you know what moment have they caught you in? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So one thing you might have noticed with us talking

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Speaker 1: about all these examples so far is that I think

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Speaker 1: every single one of them we mentioned is male. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so is creepiness inherently a male property? Is there such

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Speaker 1: a thing as a lady creep? Or culturally do we

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Speaker 1: just tend to assume if you're talking about a creep,

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Speaker 1: that creep is a man, And if you're talking about

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Speaker 1: somebody being creepy, you're probably referring to a person who

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Speaker 1: is male. This is a certainly a topic that it's

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Speaker 1: that's explored in some of the literature we've looked at,

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Speaker 1: and it it does seem to be this double standard

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Speaker 1: that exposes a lot of our a lot of the

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Speaker 1: sexual politics and our culture. That Yeah, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't even have to to elaborate on it too much,

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Speaker 1: but you are I found that you you are kind

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Speaker 1: of It pains to come up with good examples of

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Speaker 1: even a fictional creepy female. Um, the best that I

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Speaker 1: can come up with is clearly going to be Jerry

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Speaker 1: Blank from Strangers with Candy. Now, I've never seen Stranger,

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Speaker 1: so you got to explain Jerry Blank to me. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So this was a character played by Amy Sadaris and

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Speaker 1: the show also featured Stephen Colbert. It's one of the teachers,

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Speaker 1: but it was like an after school special on the show.

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Speaker 1: Jerry is um an older x con whose returned to

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Speaker 1: an actual high school and it's taking high school classes

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Speaker 1: alongside more or less real teenagers. Quite plausible. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: she's acting like a teenager as well, So there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of grotesque body humor. Uh you know,

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Speaker 1: Jerry's this older lady. Sadaris wore a fat suit to

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Speaker 1: play the role. She's always making these these funny twisted faces.

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Speaker 1: But she's also pans sexually aggressive, I guess you'd say,

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Speaker 1: And she's generally and generally inappropriate ways. She's also a

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Speaker 1: little bit racist, and that comes out in in what

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Speaker 1: she's talking about. Most of the time, she makes terrible choices.

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Speaker 1: But yet even in this comedy, we find ourselves caring

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Speaker 1: about her, like we know in a way they achieve

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Speaker 1: something special with Jerry because we care about Jerry we

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Speaker 1: know enough about Jerry and granted it's a comic character,

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Speaker 1: it's an unreal character, but she is still kind of

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Speaker 1: a grotesque character, and she's still a creepy character. I

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Speaker 1: think how much of that do you think is the

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Speaker 1: character and how much is just what Amy Sadaris brings

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Speaker 1: to it. Oh, I mean, it's hard to separate the

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Speaker 1: two because it's yeah, it's so much of it is

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Speaker 1: just Amy Sadaris is wonderful, twitchy performance. It's really one

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Speaker 1: of the great comedic performances of all time. You know,

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Speaker 1: Amy Sadaris actually plays a kind of creepy character in

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Speaker 1: Kimmy Schmidt as well. Oh yeah, she's like the Lackey character, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's interesting. We'll come back to another lackey in

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Speaker 1: a bit. So you mentioned Rocky Horror Picture Show riff

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Speaker 1: Raff Richard O'Brien, but there are some lady creeps in

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Speaker 1: that as well. There are and those were some other

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Speaker 1: examples that came to mind, So particularly Colombia and Magenta

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Speaker 1: from Rocky Are Picture Show, who are kind of who

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Speaker 1: kind of lackeys of riff Raff and uh uh and

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Speaker 1: uh and Frank and further and and I bring them

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Speaker 1: up because they're both definitely female fictional characters that come

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Speaker 1: off as creepy intentionally, so and we'll ignore the fact

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Speaker 1: that they're both technical I think they're one of them

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Speaker 1: is technically an alien. But but I always found that

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Speaker 1: the key with the characters both creepy and attractive. So,

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Speaker 1: if anything, their otherness, their creepiness is eroticized, I think,

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Speaker 1: so that the sense of danger that you get from

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Speaker 1: them is not based on physical deformity, but like they're

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Speaker 1: sort of countercultural aspects there. Yeah, I guess you could

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Speaker 1: say goffinus to a certain extent. And also their their

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Speaker 1: sexual freedom, especially when when they're juxtaposed to Brad and Janet,

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Speaker 1: who are like the ultimate straight people. Like that's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of like everything that works or doesn't work in

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Speaker 1: Rocky Hard depending on your your your viewpoint, UH stems

424
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: from an encounter between squares between norms and UH and

425
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: complete fringe individuals. Oh yeah, well, I mean in Rocky Horror,

426
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: the creepiness is liberating. It's a liberated sort of heroic

427
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: creepiness that is contrasted to this horrible norminus. All right, well,

428
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: you know we've rolled through some examples here, so I

429
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: think we should probably take a quick break and when

430
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: we come back we will get into the science of creepiness.

431
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,959
Speaker 1: We'll get into what the what study, what studies one

432
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: study in particular, have to say about our criteria for creepiness.

433
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434
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436
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444
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453
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454
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,760
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455
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456
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: stamps dot com inter stuff and start mailing things. So

457
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: we've talked about how one of the problems here is

458
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of uh, ambiguity and subjectivity and

459
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: how we define the idea of the creep Lots of

460
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: people will probably agree on what's a creepy situation, what

461
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: which person is a creep? But what what what are

462
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: the actual criteria? Yeah, I mean it's so subjective. One

463
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: of the articles I was looking at was the Age

464
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: of the Age of Creepiness by Nathan Heller, published in

465
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: The New Yorker and uh he and he brings up

466
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: a number of fictional characters as thought experiments. Here, for instance,

467
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: he says, is John Travolta creepy as a disco predator

468
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: in Saturday Night Fever? Hard to say? Is he creepy

469
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: as a weathered black clad gentleman who leers at women

470
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: while fondling their chins. Yes, very much and now forever more?

471
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: What change? He's of course referring to Uh, classic John

472
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: Travolta versus modern John Travolta. And does modern John Travolta

473
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: affect the way you feel about classic John Travolta? Yeah?

474
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: And I don't know, like men at the time, did

475
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: anyone would anyone dare say? Is John Travolta creepy and

476
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: satura Saturday night to fever? Or is that merely us

477
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: looking at current John travol To and then looking backwards

478
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: through time? And it brings up the question of like,

479
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: how does the suaveness of the dude inform whether or

480
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: not you think he's creepy? Yeah. Like another example that

481
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: Heller brings up is Don Draper from Madman. Don Draper

482
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: is a suave character. Uh. John Ham is a very

483
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: handsome actor, and we get to know a lot about

484
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: his complexities and his dark side, and you know what's

485
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: good in him, But he's he's definitely a creeper. Uh

486
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: some of the time, maybe a lot of the time.

487
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: But how do you how do you actually categorize it?

488
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: When is he a creep and when is he uh endearing?

489
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: In that book we mentioned Creepiness by Adam Cootsko. He

490
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: also argues that creepy types are haunting due to their

491
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: quote peculiar power of attraction. So our eyes are drawn

492
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: to the creep. You know, how can you how can

493
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: you not look at the creep You can't let them

494
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: just disappear into the background because they're capturing your attention. Yeah,

495
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: you you have to process who and what they are.

496
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: Though he's primarily focused on fictional characters right like on TV.

497
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: So I think it's time to look at a study

498
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: that will actually quantify what makes a creep uh. And

499
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: so this study is called on the Nature of Creepiness

500
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: and it's published in New Ideas in Psychology this year,

501
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: and the researchers, Frank McAndrew and Sarah Kinkey tried for

502
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: the first time that we know of in the history

503
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: of science, to take an empirical and quantified look at

504
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: the experience of creepiness and how it relates to usage

505
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: of the word. And I think this is really interesting

506
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: because lots of scientists have studied fear, anxiety and all

507
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: that and creepiness as we've been talking about. Is this

508
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: seemingly universal and utterly conversationally pervasive topic, but until now

509
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: it hasn't really been studied on its own to look

510
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: at what makes it unique. Yeah, it's been it's been

511
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: the twilight, everyone's setting the light in the dark. That's

512
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: a that's a very nice way of putting it. But anyway,

513
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: So I want to quote their mission statements sort of

514
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: what what they set out to do. Quote. It is

515
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: the goal of this paper to introduce a theoretical perspective

516
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: on the common psychological experience of feeling creeped out and

517
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: to uncover the cues that we use to label other

518
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 1: people as creepy. So two main questions, what does it

519
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: mean to be creeped out? And who's creepy? Okay, So

520
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: McAndrew and ken Ki they're uh, they're they're sort of working.

521
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: Assumption is that we have this internal creepiness detector that

522
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: is a defense system warning us against some kind of threat.

523
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: And they based this on research indicating things like that

524
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: creepy interactions literally make us feel the chills, uh, and

525
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: that other psychological research has associated feelings of literal coldness

526
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: with other types of threats, such as the social threat

527
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: triggered by the experience of social exclusion. Um. But it's

528
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: not just a warning against a threat because simply observing

529
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: common usage. As we talked about at the very beginning

530
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: of this episode, you would not describe an overtly terrify

531
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: terrifying encounter as creepy. If a friend tells you, uh,

532
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: he was chased down the street by a maniac with

533
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: a chainsaw, that is not creepy. Creepy is what if

534
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: there was a guy standing across the street staring at you,

535
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: that's probably creepy, right. Yeah. It's kind of like if

536
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: you're walking down the street and you're trying to decide

537
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: whether to remain on this side of the street or

538
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: to cross over and continue on the other side. Is

539
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: the individual on this side of the street are they

540
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: like karate punching the air and like beating trash cans

541
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: with something that would be more overtly threatening, And you

542
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: would say, I choose not to walk on that side

543
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: of the street. If it's just somebody out there like

544
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: feeding pigeons or reading a newspaper, You're like, no problem,

545
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: I walked by people doing that all the time. Not

546
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: a threat. It's that person who's kind of shifty that

547
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: person who you you can't quite get a read on.

548
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: What if it's a guy just sitting on the sidewalk

549
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: revving a wood chipper but not putting anything in it.

550
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: M hmmm, depends how much woods around. I guess that's

551
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: again it's I'm gonna have to look for more contextual quotes,

552
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: will come back to it. Okay, So the authors they

553
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: offer a hypothesis explaining the nature of creepiness, which is that, um,

554
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: the distinct feature that makes something creepy is ambiguity, meaning

555
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: a lack of certainty about whether someone or something is threatening,

556
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: or a lack of certainty about the nature of the threat. Um.

557
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: So already I can hear that. Okay, that that's making

558
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: sense to me. Creepiness involves some kind of uh feeling

559
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: of not being sure how to react to something. But

560
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: then they've got an additional hypothesis. Creepiness may be related

561
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: to the concept of in evolutionary psychology of agency detection.

562
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: Now we've talked about agency detection on the show before. Um,

563
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: sort of having an overactive or hyperactive agency detection means

564
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: that if you're walking down the road and you hear

565
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: some leaves wrestling, you say who's there instead of just assuming, well,

566
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: that's just the wind. I don't even need to look, right,

567
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: And why would this be favored evolutionarily, Well, false false

568
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: positives don't cost you much checking to see who's there

569
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: when nobody's there. That's not a big risk to take.

570
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: But false negatives can get you killed if it wrestles

571
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: and you don't look. You know, one in a million times,

572
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: that might be the maniac with the chainsaw. Yeah, it's

573
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: a type one errorsus a type two error. And nature

574
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: is going to select for freaking out a little bit

575
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: too much over things that are not a threat. Right,

576
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: So they say that our tendency is to sort of

577
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: over value cautiousness in potentially threatening situations, which could lead

578
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: to the experience of creepiness. You know, this guy here,

579
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: he hasn't done anything overtly dangerous or threatening. You're just

580
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: getting some cues that's set off that over sensitive threat alarm,

581
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: and it keeps you on guard. And that feeling of

582
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: creepiness is the biological sensation of being kept on guard.

583
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: All right. Now, They've got four explicit hypotheses in the

584
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: paper that they want to test through their their experiment,

585
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: which is going to be in the form of a

586
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: of a big survey to get people's attitudes on creepiness.

587
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: So the first hypothesis is, h if creepiness communicates a threat,

588
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: males are going to be more likely to be perceived

589
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: as creepy than females simply since males are more violent

590
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: and physically threatening to more people. Makes sense. Uh. Second hypothesis, UH,

591
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: females are going to be more likely than males to

592
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: perceive some sort of sexual threat from a creepy person. Okay, okay,

593
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: I understand that too. Third hypothesis, there are certainly they're

594
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: gonna be certain occupations that will be perceived as more

595
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: creepy than other ones, like occupations that signal a fascination

596
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: with what they call threatening stimuli like death or non

597
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: normative sex, unacceptable types of sex. And and that that

598
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: one that particular description I don't doubt at all. But

599
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: it also it really underlines the problematic, contextual, and and

600
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: individual aspects of UH of that the threat analysis that's

601
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: going on, like what is normal sex exactly to to

602
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: to any given individual right, it's going to be based

603
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: on the you know, it's gonna very person to person

604
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: it is your is the character here walking you know,

605
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 1: through an Amish town or they're walking down the streets

606
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventies New York and a Scorsese film. You know, Yeah,

607
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: some bad lieutenants are creepier than others. And then their

608
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: last hypothesis, since they hypothesize that creepiness is about uncertainty, Uh,

609
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: they're gonna say that non normative nonverbal behavior, so weird

610
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: mannerisms and behaviors and actions or characteristics associated with unpredictability

611
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: will be positively associated with perceptions of creepiness. So that's

612
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: uh sort of to say that acting weird and acting unusual,

613
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: acting unpredictable is going to be associated with creepiness. Okay, yeah,

614
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: because because there is like shiftiness is creepiness for the

615
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: most part. Right, Yeah, So what are their methods? How

616
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: are they going to test this? Well, they admit that

617
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: this uh, this first research, since you know, creepiness hasn't

618
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: really been studied this way before. This is mostly exploratory,

619
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: so they're just trying to get some places to start

620
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: test the waters, figure out the depths, and then it's uh,

621
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: it's future studies and meta analysis that will give us

622
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: perhaps some real understanding exactly. So in this study, it

623
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: was one thousand, three d forty one individuals heavily weighted

624
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: towards females. There were a thousand, twenty nine females and

625
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: three hundred and twelve males, ranging an age from eighteen

626
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 1: to seventy seven, the main age of about twenty nine,

627
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: and they were all recruited online to respond to a

628
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: survey for quote, a study about creepiness. I wonder if

629
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: people who are interested in answering questions about creepiness have

630
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: a non standard view of creepiness. That's always a concern

631
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: with research, right exactly, And they admit that in their study.

632
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: They talk about the some of the limitations of their

633
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: methods at the end of the paper, and you can

634
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: mention those in a bit. Uh one. One other problem

635
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: that they mentioned is that they wish that they had

636
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: gotten data on the participants country of origin. They do

637
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: not have that. They believe the sample is primarily American

638
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: but contained a significant portion of international participants. But we

639
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: don't know, so we shouldn't really consider that um at

640
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: least for the purpose of this study. Exactly. As we'll

641
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: get into a bit. I I have some some strong

642
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: feelings about the Nate the role of this absolutely Yeah,

643
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: well I think creepiness is going to be highly culturally determined.

644
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: So yes. Um, So, here's the first part of the study.

645
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: You get in there, imagine you're participating in this study.

646
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: The first thing is a forced choice question, is a

647
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: creepy person more likely to be male or female? Well,

648
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: male is going to be the the answer they're going

649
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: to give. Survey says you are absolutely correct. The result

650
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: was point three percent of respondents thought that creepy people

651
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: were much more likely to be males than females. Unquote.

652
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: So also, males and females were in almost perfectly well

653
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: agreement that males were more likely to be creepy. So yes.

654
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 1: When we asked earlier, is creepin as a male issue,

655
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: it really seems like it is. Men and women agree

656
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: that men are generally the creeps. Then they get to

657
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: the next section. The next session is a scenario that

658
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: they're prompted to imagine. So it goes like this quote,

659
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: imagine a close friend of yours whose judgment you trust, Robert,

660
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: have you got the close friend in mind? Okay, a

661
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: close friend of mine. Now imagine that this friend tells

662
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: you that she or he just met someone for the

663
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: first time and tells you that the person was creepy. Okay.

664
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: After reading the prompt, these participants, they're given a list

665
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: of forty four behaviors and physical traits. Just a couple

666
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: of examples had lots of tattoos or never looked your

667
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: friend in the eye, and they're asked to rate the

668
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: likelihood on a scale of one to five, one being

669
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: not likely at all, five being very likely that the

670
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: creep from the friends creep encounter exhibited these traits. And

671
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: as you can expect, some traits were considered much creepier

672
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: than others. So they say, and the results that that

673
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: there are some things highly correlated to creepiness that people

674
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: gave the answer for here. One of them was this

675
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: big composite variable that they put together out of these

676
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: appearance and nonverbal behaviors traits that people rated as creepy,

677
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: such as the person stood too close to your friend,

678
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: the person had greasy hair, the person had a peculiar smile,

679
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: the person had bulging eyes, and things like that. Though

680
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: I kind of like bulging eyes, but anyway, and then

681
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: they go on to say also other things that were

682
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: rated as creepy in this section where being of the

683
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: opposite sex as the friend, though they think this is

684
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: probably due to the predominantly female sample in the study

685
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: being extremely thin. That's strange. I don't usually think of

686
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: that as a creepy trait, but well, I guess it

687
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: comes into what's extremely thin? Yeah, so extremely I guess. So. Yeah.

688
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: But even it, like we're getting into judgment hall is

689
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: based on someone's physical appearance, right, But I mean that's

690
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: how the mind works. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I

691
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: think this explicitly calls out a lot of unfair, prejudicial attitudes, right,

692
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: a lot of these things. I mean, there's nothing wrong

693
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: with having greasy hair, right, No, I mean that's not

694
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: threatening in itself. I mean it it depending on the

695
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: context and the culture. Like greased back, slicked back hair

696
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: could be the height of fashion like that, it shows

697
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: that you were exceedingly well groomed. In other scenarios you

698
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: can afford the special pomade. Yeah, you're you're you're slicked back,

699
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: you're dapper dan man, you know. But other times it

700
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 1: just means that your hair is greasy and you haven't

701
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: taken care of yourself. So it it varies. It depends

702
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: what the fashion is, what the uh, what the individual's

703
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: expectations are, right, But of course they're testing people's attitudes,

704
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: and people's attitudes aren't necessarily always so enlightened. But anyway,

705
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: So going on from that, another thing that's uh that's

706
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: cited as not looking the interaction partner in the eye.

707
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: If somebody's like, you know, not just not make an

708
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: eye contact, staring at the floor, maybe asking to take

709
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 1: a picture of the interaction partner. I can see that

710
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: watching people before interacting with them. This, I think this

711
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: is going to be very significant. Asking about details of

712
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: one's personal life, having a mental illness, there's another prejudicial attitude,

713
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: I guess, uh, talking about his or her own personal life,

714
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: displaying too much or too little emotion, being older, and

715
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: steering the conversation towards sex. On the other hand, I

716
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: was just wondering, what are the least creepy descriptors, Like,

717
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: what did they rate the lowest? Uh? These include was

718
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: a child. Okay, that's funny because I can think of

719
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: lots of creepy children, but they're usually in movies and stuff. Yeah,

720
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: they're they're doing something that's out of context and unchildlike

721
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: and then also was fashionably dressed, talked a lot about clothes.

722
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: These are these are interesting, like the fashionably s like,

723
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: I wonder, like how much of it is the weight

724
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: of the scenario that the individual is is bringing to mind,

725
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: like they're imagining like a bar setting perhaps, and then

726
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: they would the impeccably dressed kind of I'm guessing to

727
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: go back to Saturday Night Live. I'm thinking that the

728
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: Roxbury guys, right, are they fashionably dressed? Um? But they

729
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: are creeps. They are creeps and they they are they

730
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: are Yeah, we should have mentioned them earlier because they

731
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: are invading personal space there there. They seem to have

732
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: put way too much thought into their fashion, whether or

733
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: not their fashion actually lines up with what is uh

734
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: currently culturally the norm. Okay, next part of the thing.

735
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: They also looked at occupations, right, same thing, rate rate

736
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: and occupation on the scale of one to five. How

737
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 1: creepy is it? This was really this is really interesting.

738
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite parts of the study

739
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: because we end up seeing, like the their scale of

740
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: the professions that came up creepy, the less the least creepy.

741
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: The creepiest is the clown of course, the poor clown

742
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: right up there with like undertakers and the individuals we

743
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier people engaged in uh some sort of sexual business.

744
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: The four that were significantly higher than the mean were

745
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: the clown, the taxidermists, the sex shop owner, and the

746
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: funeral directory. But one of these is not like the other.

747
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: I mean, what's wrong with clowns other than the fact

748
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: that you don't like the way they look? Yeah? Well,

749
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: I think the taxidermist one, too, is one where it

750
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,479
Speaker 1: totally depends on your setting. Like if you're talking about

751
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: rural Tennessee. Uh, but the taxidermists, they're just doing their thing.

752
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: They're just stuffing those deer heads and those fish and all.

753
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: That's just a part of your life. Taxidermist in the

754
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: big city slightly different vibe going on. But they the

755
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: clown is ever problematic, and it's is kind of a

756
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: unique intry here. We should do a whole episode sometime

757
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: on the maligned clown. Yeah, I would love to, because

758
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: I'm very much of the mind that this we've kind

759
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: of convinced ourselves that clowns are creepy. Yes, there are

760
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: clown examples that are avertly creepy. But we've kind of

761
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: been telling ourselves the same creepy clown joke over and

762
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: over again until we can't see anything else. But I digress. No,

763
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. I think a lot of

764
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: clown fear is performative. Though at the same time I

765
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: acknowledge sometimes clowns can be creepy. But why why is

766
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: this a recently emergent phenomenon. You don't hear people talking

767
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: about clowns being creepy hundred years ago. Yeah, clowns were great.

768
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: Clowns were the the entertainment of choice for young and

769
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: old alike. Uh. And here's the thing. People often say, Oh, well,

770
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: the clown is creepy because the clown is like a

771
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: false face and you don't really know what's behind it.

772
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: And yet the least creepy profession on this scale was

773
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: the meteorologist. And and I get the same vibe off

774
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: of like most meteorologists like he you know, kind of

775
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: the standard newscaster type of person. Here is someone who

776
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: I really can't get a read on because they're putting

777
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: out this demeanor. You know. The funny thing is I

778
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: I know of some specific creep be meteorologists like we're

779
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: involved in crimes. But funny side note. Also there's a

780
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: weather dot com article gloating over the fact that meteorologists

781
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: got rated the least creepy of all professions. Um, and

782
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: so I think, I think just we've got to remember

783
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: now to put somebody at ease, always be a fashionably

784
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: dressed child meteorologist who can't stop talking about clothes. Yeah.

785
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: Now you people are probably wondering where do I rank? Well,

786
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: you can certainly look up this, uh this article and

787
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: find yourself. We find out fund to find ourselves as

788
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: writers kind of in the middle of the scale though.

789
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: It so our mean is two point fourteen, and that

790
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: means we're below the mean of the scale, right, if

791
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: the mean is three, it's one to five scales. So

792
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: we're generally considered less than the medium creepiness. Most professions

793
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: on here got less than medium creepiness. That I can't

794
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: I can't get over the fact though that according to

795
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: this we are more creepy than actors. I'm maybe I

796
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: just know some creepy actors, but well we're not much

797
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: it's almost the same. Almost. Yeah, I guess we're we

798
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: were kind of equivalent. Over that that tiny slice of

799
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: a percentage point. It's true actors should be at the

800
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: top of the list. Do I think one could make

801
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: an argument for that, but hey, we're no, at least

802
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: when we're not the taxidermist, clown, sex shop owner, who

803
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: would be like right there at the top. Okay, so

804
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: we did, we did occupations. But also they wanted to

805
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: see about hobbies. And in this next section they didn't

806
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: have a list of hobbies. Instead that this was a

807
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: different format. They were just asked to list, in a

808
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: free prompt, a couple of hobbies that the subjects would

809
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: consider creepy. Yes, the creepy. The creepy hobbies here. Um

810
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: so collecting things, especially dolls, insects, and body parts with

811
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: collecting body parts. Again, one of these things is not

812
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: like the other. I think it calls to mind like

813
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: questions of like where did that come from? How did

814
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 1: you get it? Yeah? The body Yeah, the body part

815
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: one is is far creepier than collecting insects and and

816
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: and dolls. Like my sister collects dolls, shouldn't collect body parts.

817
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: I would be concerned if it was body parts. Um

818
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: what does she just collect doll parts? Full full dolls?

819
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: But that at any rate. Yeah, there's kind of I

820
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: feel like maybe there's an unfair stigma with that too,

821
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: with the collecting of dolls, this is my arms room.

822
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 1: There's They also pointed out hobbies that entail a great

823
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: deal of watching, either in the form of photographing people, uh,

824
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: bird watching and uh. And also they pointed out taxidermy

825
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: and having quote a fascination with pornography or exotic sexual activity.

826
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: But yet again, this is going to be one of

827
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: those things where we we do wish we had had

828
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: country data on this, right, because this is probably gonna

829
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: be highly culturally variable. Yeah, I mean exotic sexual activity

830
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: like that, it depends entirely and you choose to define that, Like,

831
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: there are plenty of individuals out there who might define uh,

832
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, homosexual activity as that. And therefore any um,

833
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: you know, gay or lesbian or bisexual individual is then

834
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: a de facto creep based on this scale. Oh, I

835
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: think that is like, if you go back fifty years

836
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: I think that there is a like an American culture

837
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: fifty years ago, you will see a strong association between,

838
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: for example, a gay man and the concept of creepiness. Yeah. Now,

839
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: I guess hopefully we seem to be losing that. I

840
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: don't really get a sense of that today, but now

841
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: that that's certainly like the homophobic attitude towards uh gay's

842
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: gay men in particular, is that is that yes they

843
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: are there's something threatening, there's something creepy about them that

844
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: like the the idea that this individual is gay and

845
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: they want to have sex with me, like for the

846
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: like gay in or out there, uh you know, cruising

847
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: around for for straight bottled up uh square to to

848
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 1: warp or something you know, Oh no, oh no, yeah, yeah,

849
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: they're coming for you. They're not coming for you, trust me.

850
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: Um uh but but yeah, that's I think undoubtedly a

851
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: part of this. Okay, we're getting towards the end of

852
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: the study, but there's there's another section. In this next section,

853
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: subjects are asked to rate, on a scale of one

854
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: to five their level of agreement with fifteen statements about

855
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: creepy people. That would start with a prompt like when

856
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: I meet someone that seems creepy dot dot dot, and

857
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: then you'd have a statement to complete, do you agree

858
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: with this or not? For example, I think this person

859
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: has sexual interest in me, or people are creepier online

860
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: than when I meet them. Face to face, and so

861
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: they did some analysis on that and the results. Analyzing

862
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: the results from the section, the authors sort of conclude

863
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: that the following statements are the most commonly believed to

864
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: be true about creepy people. So they make us feel

865
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: feel fearful or anxious. Uh. They believe that the creepiness

866
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: resides in the individual more than in his or her behavior.

867
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's unfortunate. I think people probably

868
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: do feel that way like that. It's it's really that

869
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: a person is a creep and always a creep, rather

870
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: than that what they're doing right now is creepy. I

871
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: feel more the opposite. Yeah, but it does come into

872
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 1: this whole idea that we just dismiss someone as a creep.

873
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: We write them off as a creep until additional information, uh,

874
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: you know tells us otherwise. But if we're just dismissing them,

875
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: that information may never come because it's not like we're

876
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: gonna get to gonna know the creep unless we have

877
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: to write. Right. Okay, So more creepy behaviors. We think

878
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: they may have a sexual interest in us. That seems key,

879
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, it represents a sexual threat. Um. Uh, they're

880
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: creepy when they exhibit multiple symptoms of creepiness rather than

881
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: just one. And I think that makes sense because I

882
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: would sort of call this creep clustering similar to the

883
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: crank clustering. Like if you meet somebody who believes in

884
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: one crank theory, they probably believe in a lot of

885
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: crank theories. If you meet somebody who's into time cube,

886
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: but they're probably also I don't know, flat earther, Actually

887
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't be both of those, as they're incompatible.

888
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 1: But but you know what I mean about that. Yeah, yeah, So,

889
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: for instance, like the kind of person who might encounter

890
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: like nine or era or even modern era Glynn Danzig, Like,

891
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: if they're the kind of person who thinks, you know,

892
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: some other things they're into, well, okay, I guess the

893
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: thing is if they're the type of person that's going

894
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: to think tattoos or long black hair happens to be creepy,

895
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: they're also going to think that having like sharpened fingernails

896
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: is going to be creepy. They're gonna think that that

897
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: other aspects of his persona are also creepy. How can

898
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: sharpened fingernails be creepy? I know, it's it's it's beautiful. Okay,

899
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: so a few more so, Uh, the expected intimacy and

900
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: frequency of the interaction with the person moderates perceptions of creepiness.

901
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: So uh, just sort of like expectations are going to

902
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: change the way you receive the conversation. That obviously makes sense. Uh.

903
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: Something that is done by somebody who's close to you

904
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: is not physically but you know, a close friend of

905
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: yours is might not be creepy, but if a stranger

906
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: did it, it it would be creepy. That's kind of obvious.

907
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: Next thing that people believe that creepy people are unable

908
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: to change, but they do not necessarily have bad intentions.

909
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: And uh, and then finally, people who follow social rules

910
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: of behavior are not perceived as creepy. So basically, if

911
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: you if you mind your manners and you follow all

912
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: the rules of normal social interaction, as often kind of

913
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: ambiguous and unstated as they are, you can avoid being

914
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: considered creepy. So the serial murderer who completely buries uh

915
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: their true identity is not creepy. Dexter is not creepy,

916
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: That's true. Dexter came up in some of the literature

917
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: we're looking at, either I think they made the argument

918
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: that Dexter does become creepy later on because there's some

919
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: sort of a an incest angle or something. Maybe. I mean,

920
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: I never really I only watched a little bit of Dexter.

921
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: But he's not um, he's he doesn't come off as

922
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: creepy to people who know him, right just because he's

923
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. He basically minds his manners and doesn't

924
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: act too weird in public. Yeah, and and I didn't

925
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 1: watch a lot of the show, but you also, I

926
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 1: did not get the strong impression that he really enjoyed

927
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: what he was doing all that much, like he just

928
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: kind of did it because he had to. I think

929
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 1: he did. Yeah. I mean again, we're sitting here talking

930
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,240
Speaker 1: about a show we haven't really seen. It's true, okay,

931
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: but that is the creepy judgment. Saying someone is creepy

932
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 1: is judging a show you haven't really seen. Okay. So

933
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: a little more about their their analysis. They did say

934
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: that from the results, they think the hypothesis that creepiness

935
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: is linked to unpredictability is somewhat supported. Uh. They say

936
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: that subjects more often agreed that the statement quote I

937
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: am uncomfortable because I cannot predict how he or she

938
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: will behave was descriptive of their reaction to a creepy person,

939
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: and people were close to neutral on the statement quote,

940
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: even though someone maybe creepy, I usually think that I

941
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: understand his or her intentions. So it seems like there's

942
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: some support for creepiness being unpredictability. They also found support

943
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: for the hypothesis that women are more likely to perceive

944
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: a creepy person as a sexual threat. Uh. And then

945
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: in the final section that the last thing that was

946
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: on the study was a single yes no question do

947
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: most creepy people know that they are creepy? The responses

948
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,479
Speaker 1: were a hundred and fifteen yes. That was like eight

949
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: point six percent, seven hundred nine seven No, that was

950
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 1: like six and uh four hundred and twenty nine unsure,

951
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 1: which was like thirty two. So generally people don't think

952
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: that creepy people know that they're creepy, or they can't

953
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: tell whether they know or not, and then other straight

954
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: stray observations. I thought this was kind of interesting. The

955
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: authors point out that older participants seem to be a

956
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: little bit less concerned about creepy people and less likely

957
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: to perceive sex fual threat or an intent to harm,

958
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: which is interesting. I don't know if I would have

959
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: predicted that that older people are less creeped out. Huh,

960
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: that is interesting, Like to what maybe do you know,

961
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: basically like they just don't see themselves as being threatened

962
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: that much by the creeps in their midst or does

963
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: that mean there maybe even more open to their own

964
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: creepiness and the creepiness of others. It could be or

965
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know, maybe over time. I mean, as

966
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: we've discussed discussed, you encounter a lot of creeps in

967
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: the world. Creepiness is a common everyday experience. And the

968
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: more you experience creepiness and it does no harm to you,

969
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: maybably become desensitized to it. Or Yeah, one or two

970
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: things is going to happen, right, Either you're gonna you're

971
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: gonna be desensitized to it or you are gonna just

972
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: really go down the well of fearing the creep all

973
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: around you. Right. Yeah, so uh, we we should move

974
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 1: on from this study. But one thing I do want

975
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: to mention at the end is the authors acknowledge some

976
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: limitations of their study. Like we talked about, this is

977
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: you know, this is an online survey. So this is

978
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: very preliminary. It's more sort of like establishing uh leads

979
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,240
Speaker 1: for other research in the future. Because with an online

980
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: survey like this, one possibility that you have is a

981
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: problem with self selection bias of the participants. Right, So,

982
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: since it's an online volunteer survey, we're not necessarily hearing

983
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: from a truly random sample of people, but from the

984
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: kind of people who would click on a Facebook link

985
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: to fill out an online psychological psychological survey about creepiness.

986
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: That that is presumably a type of person indeed, um

987
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: and they might be giving different types of answers than

988
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: a truly random sampling of the population would. Also we

989
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: already pointed out, for example, the lack of data and

990
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: country of origin. This would be very interesting to look into,

991
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: and it's probably, you know, if somebody's going to study this.

992
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: Moving ahead from this point, I think this would be

993
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting things to look at. What

994
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: in what ways are these creepy behaviors culturally variable and

995
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: which ones are more universal? One thing I would say,

996
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: it's well known, for example, that some cultures have very

997
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 1: different feelings about things like eye contact yes than other

998
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 1: cultures do, like sometimes making prolonged eye contact with somebody.

999
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: In one place that might be totally normal and nice

1000
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,439
Speaker 1: thing to do, and in other places it might be

1001
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: considered very creepy, right, or staring in general, like is

1002
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: it okay to stare at somebody who stands out a

1003
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: little bit? Yeah? Yeah, it's going to vary from culture

1004
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: to culture. All right, let's take a quick break and

1005
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 1: we come back. We'll look at a few more aspects

1006
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: of creepiness. Hi, I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, a host of the

1007
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: new House to works Now podcast. Every week, I'll be

1008
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: bringing you three stories from our team about the weird

1009
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: and wondrous developments we've seen in science, technology, and culture.

1010
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: Fresh episodes will be out every Monday on iTunes, Spotify,

1011
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 1: Google Play Music, and everywhere else that find podcasts are found.

1012
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: So one of the big takeaways from this study we

1013
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 1: looked at and from some of the discussion we've had

1014
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: so far, is the idea of the threat ambiguity right

1015
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: in creepiness. That creepiness is different from scariness because when

1016
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 1: you are scared, you're scared of something that is overt

1017
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: or that being scared might be a part of creepiness,

1018
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: but it's okay to openly display fear and revulsion from

1019
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: something that is overtly threatening. Like we said, guy running

1020
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: at you with a chainsaw, it's okay to scream and

1021
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: run away from that. If there's a guy who's just

1022
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 1: being a little bit creepy and you scream and run

1023
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: away from him, we sort of have this conflict, right,

1024
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: like we're feeling, Am I just being rude? Right? If

1025
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: I do that? Um and the one of the authors

1026
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: of the study of Frank McAndrew. In another essay, he

1027
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 1: terms this the conflict between self preservation and self presentation,

1028
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 1: and I think that's a good way of putting it. Yeah,

1029
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: we're all walking this web of social expectations and societal norms,

1030
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: and there's an individual up ahead. It's kind of shaking

1031
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: the web a little bit, and we don't want to

1032
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 1: plumb it off the web with them. Don't want something

1033
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: bad to happen. But we also don't want to shake

1034
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: the web ourselves exactly so, So in that sense, creepiness

1035
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,479
Speaker 1: is uncomfortable, not just because it entails anxiety, but also

1036
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: because it's inherently awkward. It's uncertain, you don't know what

1037
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: the best thing to do, is, so you're stuck in

1038
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: this state of I'm not comfortable, I don't know what

1039
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: to do, and that itself is a source of distress.

1040
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: One more thing I want to mention real quickly is

1041
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: that mc andrew of the Creepiness Study is also interested

1042
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: in the creepiness of places. Were primarily focused on creepy

1043
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: people today, but he has an essay at the Conversation

1044
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: you can check out about the evolutionary psychology of haunted houses. Interested. So,

1045
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: I know, I know what a number of you are

1046
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: probably thinking out there. Well, this is all great, but

1047
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: what did Freud have to say about it? Right? He's

1048
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: the final authority today? Well, uh, Sigmund Freud did not

1049
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: discuss the creep specifically, but in nineteen nineteens the uncanny

1050
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: he did have this to say, and you know is

1051
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: it will discuss This involves translation of the terms, but

1052
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: he said, the subject of the uncanny is a province

1053
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: of this kind. It undoubtedly belongs to all that is terrible,

1054
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: to all that arouses dread and creeping horror. It is

1055
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: equally certain, too, that the word is not always used

1056
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 1: in a clearly definable sense, so that it tends to

1057
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: coincide with whatever excites dread. Yet we may expect that

1058
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: it implies some intrinsic quality which justifies the use of

1059
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: a special name. One is curious to know what this

1060
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: peculiar quality is, which allows us to distinguish as uncanny

1061
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: certain things within the boundaries of what is fearful. So

1062
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 1: he's start of playing the same game that we've been doing,

1063
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: trying to find a distinction. He's got this term uncanny

1064
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: literally in the German, I think it's das unheimlich, right,

1065
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: das unheimlich translated as the uncanny, this sort of creepiness feeling.

1066
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: But I think there's an important distinction to make between

1067
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: what we mean when we say creepiness and what Freud

1068
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: meant by the uncanny or dassunheimlich and um. But but

1069
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 1: he's playing the same kind of tight rope walk of Okay,

1070
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: it's not exactly just fear, right, it's something else. And

1071
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: Freud quotes Ernst Ginch to find a He's trying to

1072
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: find a perfect example of what encapsulates his idea of

1073
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 1: the uncanny experience. He writes, quote doubts whether and apparently

1074
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: inanimate being is really alive or conversely whether a lifeless

1075
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: object might not be in fact animate. Okay, so I

1076
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: guess I can can see that like that can be creepy.

1077
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: People often refer to things in the uncanny valleys creepy, right,

1078
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: something that's a little close to being similar to human

1079
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: but not close enough that it's real, and so it

1080
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: gives you the willie's uh. And they give the example

1081
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: of waxwork figures, artificial dolls or automatons. Freud gives that, yeah,

1082
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: I would agree that, yet wax models of individuals life

1083
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: wax models are are uncanny and are perhaps a little creepy.

1084
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Have you ever been to a wax museum? I have,

1085
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: It's been a while, but yeah, I've I've been to

1086
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: a really have been to, like a small one that

1087
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: had a few different exhibits. They should be illegal. But

1088
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 1: but a writer we talked about earlier, Kotsko, he talks

1089
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: about Freud's concepts, right, yeah, and he he makes the

1090
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: argument essentially that that that the uncannying is here, the

1091
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: Lunheimlich essentially boils down, to quote, the inherent creepiness of

1092
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: human desire. Okay, well, if it's Freud, obviously desires coming

1093
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,479
Speaker 1: in right, and and Yeah, I think human desires maybe

1094
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: inherently creepy if you look at it in the right light. Uh. Now.

1095
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: He also points out there on Freud's list of suggested

1096
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: translations for unheimlich um, there is uncomfortable, uneasy, gloomy, dismal, uncanny,

1097
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: ghastly haunted in reference to a house, and of a

1098
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: in reference to a man, quote a repulsive fellow. Uh.

1099
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: Some of those get it better than others. I mean,

1100
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: creepiness is inherently uncomfortable and uneasy. I think those are good.

1101
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: Ghastly gloomy. Nah, that's not really right. And you know,

1102
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: I actually I end up kind of waffling on this

1103
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: interpretation of of all this when Freud says the following

1104
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: in the same work, dismembered limbs, a severed head, a

1105
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: hand cut off at the wrist, feet which danced by themselves.

1106
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: All these have something peculiarly uncanny about them, especially when,

1107
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: as in the last instance, they prove able to move

1108
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: of themselves. In addition, what, yeah, I would say, that

1109
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: is not creepy like that is that is the realm

1110
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: of like straight up maddening terror. Yeah, that's the person

1111
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: in the casket opens her eyes and starts screaming yeah,

1112
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: Like you can't compare a weird character played by Steve V.

1113
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: Simmy in a film to two disembodied parts like flopping

1114
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: around or a or a or or or a human

1115
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: head rolling around and moaning or totally yeah, yeah, I

1116
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: completely agree. I think Freud's and Heimlich is something different

1117
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: from creepiness. Uh. The the overlap is kind of interesting

1118
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: because it seems in some senses to kind of capture creepiness.

1119
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: One of the things that Freud goes on to talk

1120
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: about is this idea of you know, of course, the

1121
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: familiarity aspect, like Heimlich is a word in German that

1122
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 1: so it has a lot of range of meaning. It

1123
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: sort of means hidden or private sort of, but it

1124
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: also encapsulates the idea of something feeling at home like homeie,

1125
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: homely or familiar um, and so it can take on

1126
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: all these different kinds of meanings, bringing lots of connotations.

1127
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's where a lot of this

1128
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: ambiguity comes from. It's this huge, loaded, big word in German,

1129
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: and creepiness is not the same way in English. Creepiness

1130
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 1: in English, I think is a much more uh specific word.

1131
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: If that makes any sense. Yeah, and it's certainly. Certainly

1132
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: if any listeners out there have have other ex amples

1133
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: of linguistic models for creepiness, other translations of it that

1134
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: have that carry slightly different weight within a given culture,

1135
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: I would love to hear about that. What one quote

1136
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: that I do think might be a little bit useful

1137
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: is that Freud quotes Shelling in his essay on on

1138
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: the Uncanny and says that Shelling defined the uncanny is

1139
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 1: everything that ought to have remained hidden and secret and

1140
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: yet comes to light. Okay, that now sounds like they're

1141
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: that he's talking about creepiness again. Sort of, Yeah, because

1142
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: you can kind of see that like something some a

1143
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: person who's behaving creepy, there's there is like a pressure

1144
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: building in them. Often, you know, there's like something that

1145
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: is a behavior that you are worried they may express

1146
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: but they're not yet expressing or something like that. Alright,

1147
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: So we've we've pretty much we've pretty much covered what

1148
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: we currently know about creepiness, and we've discussed some examples

1149
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 1: of creepiness, uh and and try to to you know,

1150
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 1: dismantle uh, the notion itself. One thing this is I

1151
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: want to bring up something that I kept thinking about

1152
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 1: as as we're discussing these these various creepy factors on

1153
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: the creepy checklists, the various creepy characters that come to mind,

1154
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 1: and that is, you know, to to what extent is

1155
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 1: uh is the perception of a creep like inherently racist?

1156
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: Like like how much ethnic fear and ethnic anxiety is

1157
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: is wound up in our perception of the creep. You know,

1158
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: I can honestly say that when you said this, I

1159
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 1: hadn't encountered anything to make me think this, because there's

1160
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: obviously plenty of you know, racism and bias in the

1161
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: way people assess potentially threatening or negative characteristics of other people.

1162
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 1: You know, we we all have implicit biases, um, and

1163
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: and we make judgments about people that are unfair based

1164
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: on you know, superficial external character sticks. But as I've

1165
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: always interpreted interpreted it to me, creep is a fairly

1166
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: like a race or ethno neutral concept. When when I

1167
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: think of a creep, I I certainly don't think of

1168
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: a person of a of a different race or different culture, right, um.

1169
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 1: But I can see how it certainly could be interpreted

1170
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: that way because as we've talked about the creep in

1171
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:24,919
Speaker 1: many ways, is in the eye of the beholder. Yeah,

1172
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there are some activities that are probably going

1173
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: to be pretty universally considered creepy. But then there are

1174
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: other things that are just basically reflecting the prejudices of

1175
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: the of the creepy. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we're definitely

1176
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 1: not at the point where if you call someone or creep,

1177
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: they're gonna come back and call you a racist for it.

1178
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm pondering here, I guess is that there's

1179
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot in the stereotypical creep that lines up

1180
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: not only with character ambiguity, but also racial ambiguity. So

1181
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: the other the you know, one whose physical characteristics diverge

1182
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: from the norm, whose fashion sense diverges from the norm,

1183
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: who's social graces, grasp of language, and perhaps even expectations

1184
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: of relationship interactions is different or is believed to differ

1185
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: from the status quo. Uh And so, as as I

1186
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 1: looked at some of the stereotypical mainstream examples, I kept

1187
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: asking myself, Wait, is this person considered creepy because of

1188
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: at least implicit racism or xenophobia? Uh? So I have

1189
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 1: an example here all right, So, and I present this

1190
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: as an open question. I'm not pretending to have this

1191
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: all figured out. But The Big Lebowski one of my

1192
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: favorite movies, and I am I am not in any

1193
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:40,439
Speaker 1: way of uh, you know, criticizing the film or or

1194
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: you know, criticizing the Cohen Brothers. But it's probably freshen

1195
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: my mind because I saw it last week. So we

1196
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: have a number of fabulous creepy characters played by very

1197
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: talented actors. H And they're creepy for multiple reasons. So

1198
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: let's first of all, this Jesus and Jesus Jesus and

1199
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 1: overtly we can say Jesus is cre because he's an

1200
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: alleged sex offender. It's loud, he invokes threats of sexual violence. Yeah.

1201
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: Then there's a Lulie nukel n uncle. Yes, the nihilist

1202
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: Peter Stormaer. Yes, fabulous, fabulous actor plays a great creep

1203
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 1: especially in this. So he's a nihilist, he's a pornographic actor,

1204
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: he's a musician and a criminal. It's plenty to be

1205
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 1: to find creepy there or so, I don't know if

1206
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: I find really creepy really maybe, well, I don't know. Again,

1207
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 1: perspective plays a key here, but he's at least soft creepy, okay.

1208
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 1: Uh Knox Harrington, the video artist, pencil thin mustache, he's

1209
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 1: kind of an observer in the background. He has a

1210
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: strange laugh. It's David Fuellis, yea, who plays him. It's

1211
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: a very bit part. But he's also he's the guy

1212
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: who plays the werewolf in the Harry Potter movies. Right,

1213
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, he was also in uh, the the

1214
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: Island of Dr Moreau movie that we've discussed here before.

1215
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: He is creepy. Knox Harrington is creepy. Yeah. And then

1216
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: and then of course there's Jackie Treehorn, the pornographer Loan Shark.

1217
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: He's fascinated with the erotic. He comes off very suave

1218
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: in the movie. But you can certainly make a case

1219
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: based on the criteria we're discussing earlier that he's a

1220
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 1: creepy dude and he does drug the dude. So, yeah,

1221
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: that's true. For some reason, the main two I would

1222
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: think of as creepy or the Jesus and Knox Harrington.

1223
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: So but also whoa, whoa, whoa, there are other creeps

1224
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 1: in The Big Lebowski. Uh. Philip Seymour Hoffman's brand is

1225
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 1: absolutely creepy. He is definitely creepy. And I think he's

1226
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 1: a good example that yes, there's a there, here's a

1227
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: very white creep character because he's just such a lackey

1228
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 1: to to the Big Lebowski Jeffrey Lebowski. So we have

1229
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 1: all these reasons to find these individuals creepy, but for

1230
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 1: the first four that I mentioned, on top of these

1231
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 1: create these these these avert reasons. It's also worth noting

1232
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: that the characters are respectively Sto Rican, German, English, and

1233
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: possibly Italian American. The actors are respectively Italian American, Swedish English,

1234
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: and Italian Americans. So there's there is a certain ethnic

1235
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 1: otherness in all of these characters. And so I have

1236
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: that to to wonder, like to what extent is that

1237
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: weighing it? Like, yeah, it could be like certainly the

1238
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 1: Jesus would be creepy if he were white. I'm not

1239
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: saying he wouldn't be. But do we do we end

1240
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: up pulling in certain uh fears of the ethnic other

1241
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: into these creepy stereotypes. Huh, Well, I'm not sure that

1242
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 1: happens in the Big Lebowski, but I can definitely see

1243
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 1: how that would happen. Um and m M. I guess though.

1244
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: I mean this is probably one of the most innocuous

1245
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 1: because it's englishness. Knox Harrington's englishness, his English accent is

1246
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: maybe one of the creepiest things about him. Yeah, he

1247
01:09:54,479 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: comes off Yeah indeed, Um, he's also got that mustache.

1248
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly we can think of various movies, whether

1249
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 1: it's like an ethnic heavy shows up, like the the

1250
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: Odd Job situation, where you know, or out of nowhere,

1251
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 1: there's this uh this this Asian uh thug character who's

1252
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 1: working for the supervillain and uh yeah, and there's a

1253
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 1: certain ethnic otherness that's that's wrapped up in their persona. Yeah,

1254
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: I think it's definitely there. In James Bond, I mean

1255
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 1: there we get back into times when it was I

1256
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 1: think more okay to just overtly make your creeps somebody

1257
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 1: who's you know, vaguely foreign. Um. And And it's there

1258
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 1: because a lot of times in in James Bond, you'll

1259
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: have a creep who is some kind of vaguely foreign

1260
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: or overtly foreign creep who also just watches the watching.

1261
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't talk much like Odd Job he

1262
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: just stares at you. He doesn't say anything. That that

1263
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,879
Speaker 1: is I think pretty standard creepy behavior watching without talking.

1264
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: But it can also it's equally can be described as

1265
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 1: someone who simply does not speak your language and and

1266
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 1: that a loss to interact. Yeah, there you go. Um,

1267
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:04,679
Speaker 1: you know, there are plenty of other I think characters

1268
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:08,679
Speaker 1: that come to mind of like creepy foreigner stereotypes. Um,

1269
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 1: there's Ortega. Remember Ortega from one of the ms T

1270
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 1: s Oh Yeah, from the Incredibly Strange Creatures who stopped

1271
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 1: living and became mixed up zombies. Yeah, there was kind

1272
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: of this weird uh like racist Latin American kind of concoction. Uh.

1273
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 1: Peppy Lapew the that the French skunk from the cartoons. No,

1274
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: Peppy Lapew goes definitely beyond any ambiguity of threat, Like

1275
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:34,600
Speaker 1: Peppy Lapeuw is a rapist. Yeah, yeah, yeah he is.

1276
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 1: He's he is actively chasing down the Was it a

1277
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: dog or her cat? It's a cat? Yeah. I think

1278
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 1: Bruno and Burrat are both strong examples of this. You

1279
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 1: can make a case for Hannibal Lector as we see

1280
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,879
Speaker 1: him in the TV show, is having certain ethnic otherness

1281
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 1: to him. M Hmmm, I don't know. Is Hannibal creepy?

1282
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,560
Speaker 1: Is Hannibal Lecture creepy? He should be? Should he's in

1283
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 1: that don dre promote exactly. I think where we we

1284
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 1: kind of waffle back and forth between finding him just

1285
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:08,440
Speaker 1: endlessly um, almost seductive. You know, he's like a vampire,

1286
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: but then he you know, he's also creepy. There's almost

1287
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:16,640
Speaker 1: a certain level of confidence in one's behavior that pre empts, uh,

1288
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 1: some amount of creepy characterization. Like one of the things

1289
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: we were reading about, and you mentioned earlier that New

1290
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 1: Yorker article which talks about the inherent self consciousness of creepiness,

1291
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 1: which is again in opposition to one of the things

1292
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:33,600
Speaker 1: that was found in the study we talked about, you know,

1293
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 1: where people don't think that creeps No, they're creepy. But

1294
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: in that New Yorker article, uh, there was a section

1295
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: about how, you know, the constant self consciousness we have

1296
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: is is itself kind of creepy? Like being very self

1297
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 1: conscious about your behavior can lead to creepiness. Yeah. I

1298
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: mean to bring it back to Hannibal. Hannibal Lecter is

1299
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: less creepy than than Buffalo Bill, right, because Buffalo Bill

1300
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:04,800
Speaker 1: acts less sure of himself and less in control of

1301
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,759
Speaker 1: his his his persona. Yeah, though I guess hannibals probably

1302
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 1: creepy once he well, no, I was gonna say he's

1303
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 1: creepy once he starts eating you, but then he's just

1304
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,719
Speaker 1: outright terrifying. Yeah, yeah, there's so maybe there's less less

1305
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 1: twilight there. Yeah. Well, there you have it, some some

1306
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: food for thought there at the end, uh cannibalistic or

1307
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: otherwise about the creep, about how we perceived the creep,

1308
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 1: why we perceived the creep, and what the creep means.

1309
01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: We gotta come back sometime and actually do an episode

1310
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: about clowns. Yes, yeah, I would totally be game for that.

1311
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: I think there's there's some good resources out there, and

1312
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: I have I have a lot of personal thoughts on

1313
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: the meatic. We're gonna shut down your creepy clown names

1314
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: all right. In the meantime, head on over to stuff

1315
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 1: to bow your mind dot com. That's where you will

1316
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: find all the podcast episodes. You'll find videos, you'll find

1317
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 1: blog posts, and you will find links out to our

1318
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 1: various social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, tumbler.

1319
01:13:57,840 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 1: Uh you named and if you want to get into

1320
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,560
Speaker 1: for this directly. As always, you can email us and

1321
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:14,760
Speaker 1: blow the mind. How stuff works dock for more on

1322
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff

1323
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 1: works dot com? Remember remember the