WEBVTT - The Mind of Mueller  Rosalind Helderman talks to Armstrong & Getty

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<v Speaker 1>So far, every crucial moment that has come along in

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<v Speaker 1>the whole Muller investigation thing has been letting air out

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<v Speaker 1>of the Trump impeachment balloon, right, so far, not inflating it. Yeah. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>And we'll see if there's yet another one of those

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<v Speaker 1>tomorrow when Muller testifies in front of two House committees.

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<v Speaker 1>Rosalind Helderman is a Washington Post reporter focusing on political

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<v Speaker 1>enterprise story and stories and investigations, and joins us. Now, Rosalind,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you? I'm good? How are you excellent? I

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<v Speaker 1>noticed there in your your curriculum, vite, he says, trying

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<v Speaker 1>to to appear to be your equal, A p A

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<v Speaker 1>in history from Harvard Hunt. Do you have a favorite era?

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<v Speaker 1>I love history of all kinds. I like the modern era. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>but yeah, that's a that's a long ago resume point.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that's all right. We just we're both history freaks

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<v Speaker 1>and what we like talking about it with anybody wants to,

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<v Speaker 1>but you clearly don't. So listen, let's talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>Muller testimony tomorrow. And I've read some of your reporting

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<v Speaker 1>in the good stuff that Devilon Barrett and Matt Zappatosky

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<v Speaker 1>have written. In the post um, the more I learned,

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<v Speaker 1>the less I expect. Is that wrong? I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>so necessarily. I mean, you know, we only heard from

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<v Speaker 1>Bob Moore once across this entire investigation. He gave that

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<v Speaker 1>public statement in May announcing that he was closing the

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<v Speaker 1>investigation that was less than ten minutes long, and he

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<v Speaker 1>said several times in the course of that statement that

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<v Speaker 1>he did not especially wish to testify before Congress, that

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<v Speaker 1>he considered his report to be his testimony, uh, and

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<v Speaker 1>that he found additional testimony to be unnecessary. So you're

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<v Speaker 1>dealing kind of with a with a hostile witness. His

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<v Speaker 1>goal is to not share anything beyond his report and

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<v Speaker 1>to not make any any news. Now that having been said,

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<v Speaker 1>he really didn't make any news at that press conference

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<v Speaker 1>in May either. He didn't say any sing that wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>in the report then either, And yet for a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people that was still surprising just to hear him

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<v Speaker 1>say the things that were in the report made a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of news open some people's eyes. So Democrats are

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<v Speaker 1>sort of hopeful that if they can just get him

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about what's actually in the report, maybe it

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<v Speaker 1>will sort of refocus Americans attention on some of the day.

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<v Speaker 1>So far, every crucial moment that has come along in

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<v Speaker 1>the whole Mueller investigation thing has been letting air out

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<v Speaker 1>of the Trump impeachment balloon right so far, at least

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<v Speaker 1>not inflating it. Yeah. Yeah, And we'll see if there's

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<v Speaker 1>yet another one of those tomorrow when Mueller testifies in

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<v Speaker 1>front of two House committees. Rosalind Helderman is a Washington

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<v Speaker 1>Post reporter focusing on political enterprise story and stories and investigations,

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<v Speaker 1>and joins us. Now, Rosalind, how are you. I'm good?

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<v Speaker 1>How are you excellent? I noticed there in your your

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<v Speaker 1>curriculum vte, he says, trying to to appear to be

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<v Speaker 1>your equal A BA in history from Harvard Hunt. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you have a favorite era? I love history of all kinds.

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<v Speaker 1>I like the modern era. Um, but yeah, that's a

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<v Speaker 1>that's a long ago resume point. Well, that's all right.

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<v Speaker 1>We just we're both history freaks, and so we like

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<v Speaker 1>talking about it with anybody wants to, but you clearly don't.

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<v Speaker 1>So listen, let's talk about the Mueller testimony tomorrow. And

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<v Speaker 1>I've read some of your reporting in the good stuff

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<v Speaker 1>that Devlin Barrett and Matt Zappatosky have written in the

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<v Speaker 1>post um, the more I learned, the less I expect.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that wrong? I don't think so necessarily. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we only heard from Bob Moore once across

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<v Speaker 1>this entire investigation. He gave that public statement in May

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<v Speaker 1>announcing that he was closing the investigation that was less

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<v Speaker 1>than ten minutes long, and he said several times in

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<v Speaker 1>the course of that statement that he did not especially

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<v Speaker 1>wish to testify before Congress, that he considered his report

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<v Speaker 1>to be his testimony, uh, and that he found additional

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<v Speaker 1>testimony to be unnecessary. So you're dealing kind of with

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<v Speaker 1>a with a hostile witness. His goal is to not

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<v Speaker 1>share anything beyond his report and to not make any

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<v Speaker 1>any news. Now that having been said, he really didn't

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<v Speaker 1>make any news at that press conference in May either.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't say anything that wasn't in the report then either,

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<v Speaker 1>And yet for a lot of people that was still

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<v Speaker 1>surprising just to hear him say the things that were

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<v Speaker 1>in the report made a lot of news open some

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<v Speaker 1>people's eyes. So Democrats are sort of hopeful that if

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<v Speaker 1>they can just get him to talk about what's actually

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<v Speaker 1>in the report, maybe it will sort of refocus Americans

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<v Speaker 1>attention on some of the damaging details that are actually

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<v Speaker 1>contained in that document. Kind of reminds you the Battle

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<v Speaker 1>of Hastings, doesn't history major trying to drag you back

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<v Speaker 1>into baby So yeah, I think I get it that

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<v Speaker 1>I saw one report where they're gonna cut up portions

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<v Speaker 1>of Democrats. So this is a good idea. Are going

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<v Speaker 1>to cut up portions of Mueller's testimony, which is just

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<v Speaker 1>basically the Muller Report, but nobody's read it, uh and

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<v Speaker 1>and get that out on social media and hope there's

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<v Speaker 1>this is a second chance to get out the information

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<v Speaker 1>that he gathered, thinking it will be damaging to the president.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that the goal? Yeah, I mean I think we've

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<v Speaker 1>heard a little bit that the Democrats on the House

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Committee, who are likely to be focused a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more on what the Russians did during the investigation

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<v Speaker 1>and the moments where the Trump campaigns seemed to sort

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<v Speaker 1>of welcome the Russian assistance, even if there was not

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<v Speaker 1>a criminal conspiracy um, which we know from the report.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh So, there's some sense that they may try to

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<v Speaker 1>push Mower to provide some new facts to go a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit beyond the four corners of the report. The

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<v Speaker 1>Judiciary Committee Democrats, who are apparently going to focus on

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<v Speaker 1>the second volume of the report, dealing with possible obstruction

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<v Speaker 1>of justice, have signaled that they intend to stick much

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<v Speaker 1>more closely to what's actually in the document and basically

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<v Speaker 1>try to get Bob Moller to narrate some of these

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<v Speaker 1>rather dramatic moments where the president really did appear to

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<v Speaker 1>try to interfere in the investigation and kind of just

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<v Speaker 1>lay out those facts and so that Americans better understand, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>some of the president's behavior. Not I fully get that. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>which one's first, the which committees first? I believe Judiciary

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<v Speaker 1>is okay, So, and that's the one where they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to try to get him to narrate the report. As

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<v Speaker 1>you just said, Yeah, a little backward, feel like you

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<v Speaker 1>start with Russia and then go to obstruction. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think I think it's going to go in the other order.

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<v Speaker 1>But is there any reason he's going to go along

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<v Speaker 1>with that? I mean, he doesn't have to be the

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<v Speaker 1>dancing monkey that reads the reporter. Really just say it's

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<v Speaker 1>on page you could I don't feel like it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean we'll know in twenty four hours, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we do have some sense of him that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he does not like partisan nonsense. He doesn't want to

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<v Speaker 1>be there. He's he's already been given some restrictions by

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<v Speaker 1>the Department of Justice on what they think he should

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about. On the other hand, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think that the Special Counsel's Office and the prosecutors

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<v Speaker 1>in that office wrote report, uh just for their own

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<v Speaker 1>sense of fun. Like I do think that they want

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<v Speaker 1>Americans to read it, and they want Americans to understand

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<v Speaker 1>what's in it. That's a good point. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so we may find that he is a little less

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<v Speaker 1>hostile than you would think from that may press conference

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<v Speaker 1>that if the Democrats don't push him too hard, if

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<v Speaker 1>they don't sort of try to get him to go

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere that's not in the report in terms of like

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<v Speaker 1>declaring that the president committed a crime, he may be

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<v Speaker 1>willing to do a certain amount of just describing what's

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<v Speaker 1>in the report. Right although I think, and I just

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<v Speaker 1>learned this this morning. He Mueller asked, and we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about Rosalyn Hilderman of the Washington Post um about the

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller hearings tomorrow. But Mueller asked to be subpoenaed, and

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<v Speaker 1>I just realized I found out why. It's so he's

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<v Speaker 1>now got to follow in effect the rules of a

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Department employee, which include, for instance, not um not

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<v Speaker 1>impugning unindicted uncharged third parties, not in fact not even

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<v Speaker 1>discussing them. Established policy I'm quoting from the post now

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<v Speaker 1>also precludes any comment on the facts developed in legal

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<v Speaker 1>conclusions by the Special Counsel's Office with respect and uncharged individuals.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it really sounds like the rules are pretty

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<v Speaker 1>he's pretty well climbed down by them. Well, so he's

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<v Speaker 1>got this letter now in hand. So if he encounters

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<v Speaker 1>questions he doesn't want to answer, he has sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the ability to fall back and say, the Department of

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<v Speaker 1>Justice has indicated I shouldn't be answering these. But at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the day, it's going to be him.

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<v Speaker 1>They're live and it will be up to him what

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<v Speaker 1>to answer. There's very little sort of recourse the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Justice would have against him, uh if he didn't

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<v Speaker 1>follow those guidelines. And what's more, you know, you might

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<v Speaker 1>remember the Attorney General came out maybe a week or

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<v Speaker 1>two ago and actually said that he thought that the

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<v Speaker 1>Special Council shouldn't have to testify at all, and sort

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<v Speaker 1>of signal that if Bob Mueller wanted to say, wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to refuse, the Department of Justice would fight on his behalf.

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<v Speaker 1>He kind of signaled that, you know, they would have

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<v Speaker 1>his back if he wanted to tell Congress, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>going to show up, there's no need for this. Then

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<v Speaker 1>there's this whole series you'll recall of other administration to

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<v Speaker 1>face hills who are in that posture, who have refused

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<v Speaker 1>to show up in the Department of Justice is going

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<v Speaker 1>to fight in court on their behalf to not appear.

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<v Speaker 1>And it appears as though Special Council Miller has not

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<v Speaker 1>taken the Department of Justice up on that sort of

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<v Speaker 1>vague offer to fight for him. He is going to

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<v Speaker 1>show up. And so you know, a lot of this

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<v Speaker 1>is in the mind of Bob Miller and none of us.

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<v Speaker 1>None of that's the place, none of us live, Just

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<v Speaker 1>like the Enlightenment. Wouldn't you say better one than that

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<v Speaker 1>when you stole my Rosalind Helderman Washington Post A reporter, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess we'll find out together. Rosalind enjoyed the chat

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<v Speaker 1>as always very much. Thanks for the time. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for having me. What we'll make tomorrow's history tomorrow?

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<v Speaker 1>All right, I'll jump that down. That's very clever. I

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<v Speaker 1>got a couple of chuckles out of the history nerd

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<v Speaker 1>from Harvard, so that's what was my goal. So I

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<v Speaker 1>was gonna ask this interview, was your Waterloo Rosland? That's

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<v Speaker 1>better than what I said, significantly better. Um oh, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I wanted to go with, what was

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<v Speaker 1>the disastrous campaign that the Churchill led World War Only? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>except I wasn't a hundred percent sure how to pronounce it.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was Gallipoli, So that's fun to say.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's say it together. We didn't get to the other

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<v Speaker 1>side of the aisle, which you know I should ask her.

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<v Speaker 1>But uh, Republicans. The claim is Republicans. This is their

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to drill down on how when did you know

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<v Speaker 1>the Steele dossier was bogus? And why did you keep

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<v Speaker 1>going all this sort of Does he need to answer

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<v Speaker 1>those questions or does he The short answer is no,

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<v Speaker 1>and we made reference to him. I'm sorry, we probably

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<v Speaker 1>should have explained it better. But this letter from the

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Department instructing Old Bob Muller on what he can

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<v Speaker 1>and cannot say and should and should not say. It

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<v Speaker 1>really limits him. It's from the Deputy Attorney General. Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>requested earlier this month guidance on how to handle questions

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<v Speaker 1>quote concerning privilege or other legal bars applicable to potential

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<v Speaker 1>testimony in connection with the subpoenis and and the report

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<v Speaker 1>and the letter notes Mueller had resisted testifying. The Department

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<v Speaker 1>agrees that you shouldn't be testifying anyway. It's unnecessary and

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<v Speaker 1>that will remind you. Don't say anything about unindicted individuals

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<v Speaker 1>or uncharged individuals. Um, you've got to follow all the

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<v Speaker 1>court orders and blah blah blah, and just in other words,

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<v Speaker 1>shut your mouth. And I expect him to give little.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I'm trying to think through, based on my legal education,

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<v Speaker 1>which included almost applying to law school, whether if they

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<v Speaker 1>asked him, when did you know the still dossier was fake?

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<v Speaker 1>If he probably just sayd I'm not prepared to discuss that.

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<v Speaker 1>You might hear that phrase over and over again. Justice

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<v Speaker 1>Department rules preclude me from discussing that. You better get prepared, buddy.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's what my yes to. All right, Well, Okay

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<v Speaker 1>asked whether Mueller intended to speak beyond his report. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the media people involved in in his his getting

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<v Speaker 1>ready to testify referred to a main news conference in

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<v Speaker 1>which Mueller said he would not, and added, as he

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<v Speaker 1>made pretty clear, then you can expect him to stick

0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.800
<v Speaker 1>pretty close to the four walls of the report. This

0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:37.320
<v Speaker 1>could be almost laughably uncomfortable tomorrow. Then that would be

0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 1>perfect when like the fifth person in a row asked

0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.280
<v Speaker 1>him as a question and he says again with a sigh,

0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.520
<v Speaker 1>as I've said previously, I'm most I would refer you

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:51.120
<v Speaker 1>to the report. If the president was any other person,

0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:55.960
<v Speaker 1>would you have indicted him. I'm not prepared to testify

0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.240
<v Speaker 1>as to the hypothetical blah blah blah he probably in. Actually,

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.080
<v Speaker 1>we'll probably have a stock phrase that doesn't even go

0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.960
<v Speaker 1>that far. It'll be down beyond the scope of the

0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.360
<v Speaker 1>report and go to lunch or bringing a bringing a

0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 1>comedian to do a do an act for a little time,

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.120
<v Speaker 1>or stretch stretch. Ye, I don't know. It could be

0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.880
<v Speaker 1>laughably weird tomorrow. If he just refuses to answer any questions,

0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.959
<v Speaker 1>that'd be perfect. Or he could say I act all right. Finally,

0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 1>I bet I've been aching to tell you this. Listen

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.679
<v Speaker 1>to that I picked the guy, you know, that's sort

0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.920
<v Speaker 1>of thing. It