1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And before 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: we start today's podcast, we want to take a moment 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: to acknowledge what is happening in our country right now. Yeah, 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: we recorded the episode that published on Monday, June one, 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: before George Floyd was killed by police in Minneapolis. That 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: of course, has catalyzed a nationwide protest against police brutality 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: and racism. And we talk about racism all the time 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: on this show. And while we are living in a 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: time that feels to a lot of us unreal and unprecedented, 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: events like this really are not that new. But historical 13 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: knowledge does not make our current state of affairs any 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: easier for the people who have been failed by our 15 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: country over and over. So we wanted to say pretty 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: clearly that has not been evident to people Black lives matter. 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: So it feels a little bit strange to be putting 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: out regular history shows now, but that is also still 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: our job. And if you are not feeling it, we 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: completely get it. So you can always hang onto this 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: and uh come back to it when it feels like 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: a better time. Yeah. This is an interview that was 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: also recorded before these most recent events. It is a 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: discussion with John Scott Dryden, who's the creator, writer and 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: executive producer of the podcast To Mumbai. This is a 26 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: historical fiction show that is set in an imagined city 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: that's inspired by the mom Look culture, and John very 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: kindly coordinated with Holly to do a transatlantic interview from 29 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: his home in London and heads up in some ways 30 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: this may be extra difficult because there's a lot of 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: talk about the slavery of that culture, and John and 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: I are definitely lighter in tone than we probably would 33 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: have been had we recorded this a couple of weeks later. 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: We recorded this back in May, also full disclosure. To 35 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: Mumbai is a show that's also part of the I 36 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: Heart Media podcast network. As we Are. It was originally 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: made as a BBC production, but I Heart Media partnered 38 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: with this project for worldwide distribution. So here's my chat 39 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: with John Dryden. The first thing I want to ask 40 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: you is have you always been interested in history? It's 41 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: an interesting question. I haven't really thought about it, but 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: I think probably I always have. I actually did do 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: a history degree so that I haven't thought about it. 44 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: I studied medieval trade and agriculture European, But I mean, 45 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: I haven't sort of felt like I was a sort 46 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: of history geek or anything. But I guess, um I 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: probably was. And and um, and I've you know, I've 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 1: always been fascinated particularly although I studied medieval history. I've 49 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: always been fascinated, particularly by the Second World War. I've 50 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: I've read a lot about that, And yeah, I guess 51 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: we learned a lot of lessons from the past. My 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: fascination with the Second World War is just how people's 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: minds can be controlled on a population level in the 54 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: way that you know, Nazi Germany did. And I guess 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: my interest in history generally is what happens to people 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: and how they think, and how that changes in different ages. 57 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: I find it really interesting. Maybe this is kind of 58 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: where history and drama kind of mold together. I'm really 59 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: interested in what people's motivations are and and in different 60 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: sort of historic periods, different things are acceptable and different 61 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: things motivate people, and I find that kind of interesting. 62 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: I mean, just as an example in the world of 63 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: to Mumbai, which is very much inspired by the mom 64 00:03:54,040 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: looks of Egypt slavery was was a very The whole 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: society was built on slaves that the mam look leaders 66 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: came as slaves um and then took over at a 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: certain point and became the rulers. The slaves became the rulers. 68 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: But in that society, there's there's there are various documents 69 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: that give you a sense of what daily life was 70 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: like and and and having a slave and stuff. It 71 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: was just considered the norm. And it's quite quite interesting. 72 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: You can have a whole society that that doesn't really 73 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: consider anything of something like that. You could get a 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: bank loan, you know, to buy a slave, and it 75 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: was it's all completely above board. There's like no morality 76 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: questioning going on there at all. That's true. And and 77 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: then if you look at society to stay, there's there's 78 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: various things where we don't really question it either, you know, 79 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: like the way we treat animals and stuff. You know. 80 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: And maybe in years to come, people will look back 81 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: on this period of history and think it's amazing that 82 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: people didn't actually question that in any way. They didn't 83 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: ask the question, they just accepted it. So that I 84 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: guess that's my where I come from in terms of 85 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: my interest in these periods. Do you remember how you 86 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: first learned about the mom looks? Yeah. I mean I 87 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: was aware of them, and that's because I was I 88 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,119 Speaker 1: was brought up in the Middle East. I was born 89 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: in Kuwait. Actually my parents lived there, and we spent 90 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: a lot of time in Egypt. So I was kind 91 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: of aware of them, But I was also aware of 92 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: how little they've been written about, and and it just 93 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: always seemed like a kind of slightly fascinating little corner 94 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: of history that no one had quite explored. Tombay is not, 95 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: you know, is not about the Mamluck dynasty, but but 96 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: so much of what we've got in this story is 97 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: drawn from that period. And I guess what attracted me 98 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: to that once I did hear about it um and 99 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: started reading about it. It was a period of you know, 100 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: just two and a half century reason where this group 101 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: of people who were brought out over on a regular 102 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: basis as as slaves, and they were actually a Turkish origin. 103 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: They weren't Muslims, they were they were Christians, and they 104 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: were brought over because they had this incredible you know, 105 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: their prize for their fighting and their discipline and so 106 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: they were brought over to be part of the army, 107 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: and they were slaves. They were imported by the rulers 108 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: of the time, and then at a certain point around 109 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: twelve fifty day, they seized power for themselves. So they 110 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: were then in control for about in a two and 111 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: a half centuries. And during this time it was just 112 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: extraordinarily brutal. It was it was all about power. There 113 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,679 Speaker 1: was a fifty year period where there were fifty three 114 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: different sultans, you know, they were they were You didn't 115 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: last very long if you were the sultans. So there 116 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: was there was a lot of people trying to, you know, 117 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: take control. But at the same time, i'm the empire 118 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: and the city of Cairo, where which was essentially they're 119 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: sort of headquarters, thrived and at a certain point of 120 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: that period it was the wealthiest place on the planet 121 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: to be and so attracted people from everywhere else from 122 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: people came from Europe, from Asia, from the rest of 123 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: the Middle East to be there in this city, and 124 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: so it was a remarkably cosmopolitan place people came to 125 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: make their fortunes and and so that as a as 126 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: a society and a world um and and the city 127 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: was hugely fascinating to me, and so I read more 128 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: and more about it, and I guess that was the 129 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: inspiration for, you know, for this dramatic story that we 130 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: said in that society. Yeah, at what point did you realize, like, oh, 131 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: this is going to be the primary thing I pulled 132 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: from to build this world that I'm building. I guess 133 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: it was a biography that I read of the city 134 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: of Cairo that had a chat to only a chapter 135 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: actually about the mom looks, and I think all the 136 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: kind of political intrigue and skullduggery and the grandeur of 137 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: it all just really appeal to me as a world 138 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: that could be built out as a thrilling drama. Um, 139 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: you obviously read a lot for your own pleasure, clearly, 140 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: But will you talk about when you shift gears and 141 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: it becomes a little bit about drawing from historical sources 142 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: to inform your work. What that research process is like 143 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: or is it kind of the same thing. Yeah, I 144 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: think it's kind of the same thing. I find if 145 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm if I'm reading for research, I can never quite 146 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: get the thing that I'm after, So I tend to 147 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: not do it very diligently. I just read stuff for interest, 148 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: and then something will stick in my mind, and if 149 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: it does, I'll write it down and build from that. 150 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: And I mean once we we pitched and sold the 151 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: series and we found someone to to fund it, there's 152 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: then also the pressure of having to deliver something. And 153 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: one of the decisions we made really early on was 154 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: not to root it too specifically in this mam look world, 155 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: because it would in a sense tie us down to 156 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: many things. And what we wanted to create was more 157 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: of a House of Cards type story of political intrigue 158 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: and draw on that world, but not be bound by it. 159 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: And it's also you know, the religion is obviously a 160 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: big part of that society at that time, and we 161 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: wanted that, but we didn't want to be drawn on 162 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: the specifics of any one religion. So so one decision 163 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: we made fairly early on with Tuman Bay was to 164 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: create a world that is essentially fictional, that has its 165 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: own language and religion and customs, but is drawn from 166 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: that world. So we were kind of fortunate not, you know, 167 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: in terms of our research, not to have to follow 168 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: anything through in too much detail. We could allow ourselves 169 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: the luxury of inventing as well. I was going to 170 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: ask you how much you take liberty with historical accuracy, 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: but you kind of answered that. So now I'm wondering 172 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: if you had to give a rough percentage of like 173 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: how much of the show is pretty true to historical 174 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: record versus how much is this fictional, fantastical world you've created, Like, 175 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: what's the breakdown there? Well, we've always approached it episode 176 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: by episode and within a season story arc, and we're 177 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: thinking character and drama and what can happen to these 178 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: characters and who can do what, and that's how that's 179 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: our process. But when I look back on the episodes 180 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: and see how much real history there is in there, 181 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: I'm quite amazed that there's a huge amount. And I 182 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: don't know if that's because the stuff we've been reading 183 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: just kind of seeps in in a weird sort of 184 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: way that we're not quite realizing, but so much of 185 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: it is is there even quite a lot of the 186 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: characters are based on real people. I mean, maybe it's 187 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: because we will. We chose this world, and it was 188 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: quite a fortunate society to pick on, because a lot 189 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: of what goes on in um in Mamlock society and 190 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: in this period, it feels incredibly modern. And we wanted 191 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: to Mumbai to be set in a period other than 192 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: our world, but to have all sorts of modern resonances. 193 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: And when I look at Cairo, you know, this this 194 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: wealthy place, um in the middle of the thirteenth century. 195 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: So many of the things that they're dealing with, like 196 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: air pollution, you know, traffic control, postal services, how to 197 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: get things to people, banking mortgages, I mean, doctors used 198 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: to make patients sign disclaimers before performing an operation in 199 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: case they got sued. Traders selling on credit. You could 200 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: buy a slave in installments if you wanted all that 201 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's just all there, and and it 202 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: feels very contemporary, you know. Um. And so it wasn't 203 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: that we deliberately tried to make it an accurate historical drama. 204 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: But because it isn't, it's all fiction. But a lot 205 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: of what we've got in there ended up being true 206 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,359 Speaker 1: to this period. Um. Were there any challenges in integrating 207 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: that history into the narrative, Like did it ever kind 208 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: of roadblock you in a way or did it flow 209 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: so naturally that it was just part of the story 210 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: without effort. We we always pursued the story first, even 211 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: if there was no kind of historical precedent for it 212 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: at all. Um, But there was stuff that we found. 213 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: So I think the history actually enhanced it in many 214 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: ways because there would be things that we read where 215 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: we thought, oh, that's good, and it would just slot 216 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: into the drama so well. Um, for instance, you know, 217 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: in in this particular culture it was, it was an 218 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: Islamic culture, the depiction of human form in any way 219 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: it was forbidden. So within the palace, once they became 220 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: once this this slave dynasty, once they got used to 221 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: the comforts and stuff like that, there were sort of 222 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: princes and princesses and stuff like that. And the princesses 223 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: were not allowed baby dolls because that is in a 224 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: depiction of human form, So they would take babies from 225 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: the slaves who could then become the dolls of children 226 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: in the harem and um. And so these young princesses 227 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: would you know, would comb the hair and plait the 228 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: hair and dress them up real babies so close for them, 229 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: and and sometimes they'd survive these the slave babies and 230 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: become quite important in their own right. You know, that's 231 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: quite extraordinary. And and so there's things like that that 232 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: we're real that we were able to include into the story. Now, 233 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: when you set out to do a fictional but historical show, 234 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: were you anticipating that that would just have an audience? Like, 235 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: how much did you trust that history would have a 236 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: wide appeal to listeners. We trusted a lot that audiences 237 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: would like history. I mean, at the time that we 238 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: started making this, Game of Thrones was was hugely popular. 239 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: It was commissioned by the BBC, so they had an 240 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: audience that we knew were interested in history from their research. 241 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: We didn't really see it as a historical show. Um. 242 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: We saw it as a fast paced thriller, epic adventure 243 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: that was set in a different society to the one 244 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: we're living in. But we also wanted it to resonate 245 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: with today. So a lot of things that were going 246 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: on when season one was made, like isis and that 247 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and so it was was reflected in 248 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: in this um. But we we I guess we felt 249 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: that if the story was exciting enough and the characters 250 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: were relatable enough, people would be interested in it, whether 251 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: it was history or not. But in answer to your question, 252 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: I think people are interested in history. I mean, you 253 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: look at the success of you know, Wolf Hall and 254 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: some of those those stories that really do tell a 255 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: real history, not just inspired by history, that they have 256 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: big audiences. One thing that often happens with us because 257 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,359 Speaker 1: I feel like people that like history really like history, 258 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: so topic, a topic will come up for us and 259 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: someone will be like, oh, this is actually my area 260 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: of special interest in they'll share their information or their 261 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: research with us that maybe wasn't something that came up 262 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: on an episode or whatever. Do you hear from listeners 263 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: who are history buffs who are ready to talk about 264 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: Cairo during this period, or the mom looks or any 265 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: of the other elements that have made it in fictionalized 266 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: form into your show. Yeah, we do. And I'm always 267 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: quite surprised by that because I feel that there's nothing 268 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: about our series that is, you know, that accurate in 269 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: terms of historical accuracy. And we've had quite a few 270 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: people who have been academics, you know, working in university 271 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: studying this period have asked us questions about it, and 272 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, for their research, wanting to know what we've 273 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: read and how we've got to this and stuff like that. 274 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure they take it as a as 275 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: a piece of fiction. But I think on the whole, 276 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: the people that have approached and contacts us about the 277 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: series are delighted, you know, that history can be used 278 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: in this way and can reach an audience maybe that 279 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't have known about this period and have subsequently become 280 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: interested in it. That's the kind of message that we're 281 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: getting from them. I bet it's also kind of fascinating 282 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: for them to see kind of a different perspective than 283 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: someone who is strictly an academic, Like someone that has 284 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: taken in the information and then interpreted it artistically may 285 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: shed light on it in a way that they're not 286 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: used to when they're just dealing with the academic side 287 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: of it. I think that's right. Yeah, I mean most 288 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: of what I've read of this period is quite dry reading, 289 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's it's very well researched, but 290 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: it it doesn't quite conjure up a world or or 291 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: take you to that place. Um. Yeah, So I mean 292 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say we've been contacted by hundreds of historians, 293 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: you know, but but maybe you know half a dozen, 294 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: and they all seem, you know, pretty thrilled with it. 295 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: So that's very cool. Um, And this show has is 296 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: now it's gone on four seasons. We haven't gotten it 297 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: globally the fourth season that will come out in later 298 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: this summer. But I wonder as you go on season 299 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: to season and story arc to story arc, if it 300 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: gets harder or easier to think about the historical inspiration 301 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: from it. Does it, as you mentioned with those that 302 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: sort of harrowing story of of babies being used as toys, 303 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: does it kind of blossom into new ideas or do 304 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: you sometimes go, uh, we gotta come up with something, 305 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: and we're going to have to not pay as much 306 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: attention to the history on this one. I guess there's 307 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: a bit of that. But we're always surprised at how 308 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 1: the history keeps, you know, turning up new stuff. Um, 309 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: the recent season has a whole kind of history of 310 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: assassins who you know, basically were invented in that period, 311 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: and that's something we hadn't really touched on before. Also plagues, 312 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 1: you know, which again so much resonance with today. And 313 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: then you know, so we're constantly surprised how things that 314 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: we're just kind of reading about with something thing, oh, 315 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: I actually know that, you know, why didn't we find 316 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: that before? Because suddenly it seems incredibly relevant today. But 317 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: we did, as I mentioned, not want to root it 318 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: absolutely in that period, so we kind of flirted with 319 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: a slightly um, I wouldn't say supernatural element to it, 320 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: but these this this period was quite a superstitious, superstitious time, 321 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: and people believed in omens and and stuff like that. 322 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: So we have touched on characters that have dreams, that 323 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: maybe have prophetic powers that that sort of thing, but 324 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: we've never gone completely down that route of making and 325 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: having dragons or anything like that. It's always been kind 326 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: of rooted in reality. But because of the world that 327 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: they live in, they believe in in these omens and prophecies, 328 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: and sometimes they're so cryptic that you don't really know 329 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: if that and that they end up being true or not, 330 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: because the prophecy could have meant one thing or the other. 331 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: So we've got, you know, quite a lot of that. 332 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think we do keep when whenever we're 333 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: stuck for story, we go back to the history and 334 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: we we we sort of me and my co writer 335 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: say let's let's go away for a week and just 336 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: read some stuff, and we always get inspired by that. 337 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean at one point in season three, 338 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: we flirted with it being more science fiction. Um that 339 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: there is a real sense that this world might exist, 340 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: not just in the future, but might be a world 341 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: that exists in not just in the past, but might 342 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: be a world that exists in the future or on 343 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: a different planet. Um. You don't really know where to 344 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: Mumbai is, but it adheres to the rules of this 345 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: this history. Whenever we've gone down that kind of more 346 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: science fictionally route, and there are certain sort of odd 347 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: things about this world. There's two moons, for instance, we 348 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: kind of want to just keep making it slightly off, 349 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: you know. But whenever we've gone too far down a 350 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: science fictionally route, we've always uh rather regretted it back. 351 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: So we've written ourselves into a corner. Um. Yeah, as 352 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: soon as there's going to be spaceships or space you know, 353 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, there's nothing into Mumbay seems 354 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: to matter anymore, and we want everything in the political intrigue, 355 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: that the lives of these people to really matter. So 356 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 1: we've always resisted that, although you know, there have been 357 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: times where it's been quite tempting to go off in 358 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: that direction. And I can assure you with season four 359 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: we have, We've we've gone right back to the real world. 360 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: Are there any other historical events or periods that you 361 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: think would be fun to explore through fiction and do 362 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: a similar project? I mean, I think all of it really. Um. 363 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: I think because I work in in fiction, what I'm 364 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: looking for is good characters having to make difficult moral decisions, 365 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: and I think most periods of history would interest me 366 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: in that respect. I'm not sure I would jump straight 367 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: into another historical epic. It sounds like you're kind of 368 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: ready to do some hard sci fi. Yeah, I probably am. Well. 369 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: I did do this UM series Passenger List, which was 370 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: about plane that went missing, and that was, you know, 371 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: kind of refreshingly different from me. But actually no, not really. 372 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: I mean most of what I've done has been contemporary 373 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: contemporary thrillers is basically what I write. So in some 374 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: ways Tim Bay was the exception for me. But but 375 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: I love all I love watching all that stuff. You know. 376 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: Rome was a great TV series, and I love the 377 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: way they weaved in you know, the history with the characters. 378 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: But rather rather kind of underrated series, I feel, I 379 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: think it was just one of the best. Yeah, so 380 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure I would do another historical one. It's the 381 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: right idea presented itself, and with Tombay, it's it's kind 382 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: of an extraordinary journey because you know, when we first 383 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: pitched it, which was about two thousand and fifteen, we 384 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: didn't expect it to have such a long journey. It 385 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: was just one season story. Um, it's now gone on 386 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: to four seasons and the fourth season will be the last, 387 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: although it's possible there may be sort of spin off 388 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: stories with characters from from that universe. But it's also 389 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: you know, lad to there's a TV an animated TV 390 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: show in development set in that universe. And we've written 391 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: a book, Funny Enough, which is about to come out, 392 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: which is a novel set in the to Embay universe 393 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: and roughly follows the story of the first season. And 394 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: we're in the process of writing a second book. So 395 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: there'll be another one coming out next year. Oh, not 396 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: just a book, but a book series has been spawned. Yeah, 397 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: and we never expected it to come out, you know, 398 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: we never expected, you know, out of that one idea 399 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: all this stuff would emerge. Yeah. Now do you anticipate, 400 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: and you may not know the answer to this yet, 401 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: that that second book will follow roughly the narrative of 402 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: the second season, or is it going to go in 403 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: a different direction. It's going to follow roughly the narrative 404 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: of the second season. So is it sort of a 405 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: companion novel that will enrich the podcasts story? Yes? Yes, perfect. 406 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: I mean they s on their own, and they go 407 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: much deeper than you could in an audio drama. I 408 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: think the whole world is realized more completely in the 409 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: novel than than it ever could be in the audio. 410 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: Are there any big differences in how you approach the 411 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: novel in terms of your use of history in it 412 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: versus what you're doing in an audio drama where you 413 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: don't really have as much space to flesh out, you know, 414 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: some of the locations, etcetera. With descriptors. Does that harken 415 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: back a little bit more to history or are you 416 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: still pretty free with it? I'd like to say it 417 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: was more so the thorough intest, but no, we were 418 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: pretty free with it. We went again for the the 419 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: characters and the drama of the situation they were in. 420 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: So the book is out now so people can dive 421 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: right into it if they want to. Is that pretty 422 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: much a case of it's available everywhere? Yeah, it's available 423 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: in hardback and kindle and the paper that comes out 424 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: I think in a few months time. Cool its published 425 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: by a Ryan so it should be available everywhere. It's 426 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: definitely available on Amazon, and I should imagine it will 427 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: be in most bookshops. And what's the full title of it. 428 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: The full title is The City of a Thousand Faces, 429 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: The Epic of Two Mumbai. Cool. Um, here's a weird question. 430 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: Since this is a tie into a podcast, are you 431 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: doing an audiobook of it? Yeah, there's an audiobook as well, 432 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: so that's so that's inaudible. Um, we didn't have anything 433 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: to do with that that the publishers always do that 434 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: with books. But it's great. I've heard sort of extracts 435 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: from it. Yes, it's a complete audio reading of the book. 436 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: It's read by an actress called Claire Corbett. She's great. 437 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: It's really sort of an interesting idea. Right. We are 438 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: in the midst of kind of a weird time historically, 439 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: and it's a nice thing that people have at their leisure, 440 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: the opportunity to really just completely immerse in this world 441 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: that you have created, which is so compelling. Like right 442 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: out of the first episode of season one of two Mambay. 443 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: The first time I heard it, I was like, oh, 444 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: holy Moses, like you're in So it's kind of nice 445 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: that you've built this whole little sort of reprieve for 446 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: everyone if they want to just go escape for a while. Yeah, 447 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: thank you. I mean that that is the idea, that 448 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: it should feel like such a complete world with its 449 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: own set of rules and and it's populated with people 450 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: that you might like or dislike. Um, but yeah, I mean, 451 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: certainly with the audio drama, that the idea was to 452 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: get completely immersed, to get the audience completely immersed. And 453 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: I think definitely, in the world we're living in, it's 454 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: quite nice to escape. It's like being transported to somewhere 455 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: completely different. It really is. Yeah. I think I described 456 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: the podcast the first time I heard it as the 457 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: most visually colorful podcast I had ever heard, just because 458 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: it is so rich. You know, I listened to a 459 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: lot of podcasts for work, and I just felt like 460 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: you kind of do. Even though it is all audio, 461 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: you get a sense of what this world would look 462 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: like and smell like and feel like. So bravo to 463 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: you for that because it came off beautifully. You know. 464 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: One of the things with it was, and this may 465 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: as a sort of directed producer. I listened to a 466 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: lot of fiction as well, and so much of it 467 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 1: seems to depend just on the words and what what 468 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to do with to Mumbai. The the fiction 469 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: podcast is is make it kind of effortless that you 470 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: feel that the world is kind of all there without 471 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: having to worry about what specifically as that sound, or 472 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: or have a character tell you exactly what something is. 473 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: I wanted it to kind of wash over the audience 474 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: and if you let yourself be drawn into that, then 475 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: it is a kind of effortless experience. You're us in 476 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: that world and you're looking around and seeing these different 477 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: situations unfold. That was what I was after rather than 478 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, I think explaining things a lot can be 479 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: quite tiring to listen to. Yeah, I wanted it to 480 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: be more something that you could experience. Well, mission accomplished. 481 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: Thank you, John, Thank you so much for spending this 482 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: time with me. I so appreciate it. Well, thank you 483 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: for the opportunity, Holly. You know, it's great, great to 484 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: talk to you. I think John at the end of 485 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: that interview, but I just want to make sure we 486 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: thank him again for spending time with me again back 487 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: in May to talk about Two Monday and his love 488 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: of history and how that project has blossomed. To me, 489 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: it is really sort of magical that a historical fiction 490 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 1: podcast has also now become a book series, a television 491 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: series and development, etcetera. You can listen to seasons one, two, 492 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: and three of Two Monday now on the I Heart 493 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever it is you listen, 494 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: just like is the case with our show, and season 495 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: four of Two Monday will come out later this summer. Again. 496 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: That book is titled The City of a Thousand Faces, 497 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: and it is available now both as a hardback, as 498 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: a kindle book, and as an audio book. And when 499 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: I mentioned there at the end that he had created 500 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: this world that one could escape into, I was, of 501 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: course talking about the pandemic, not knowing what was about 502 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: to unfold. How you deal with current events is different 503 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: for everyone, so you may or may not want to 504 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: think about things that you can escape into. And this 505 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: is certainly a time when we hope that everyone is 506 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: actively engaged in the ways that suit them best. Uh. 507 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: I have a little bit of listener mail that diverges 508 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: pretty greatly from this I'd like to hear it, so 509 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: it'll be a little light ending to it. Um. This 510 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: is about our very recent episode on Canary Row. We've 511 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: gotten some really fun emails about Canary Row, for which 512 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: I think everybody that did it. Um. This is from 513 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: our listener Julie, who says, I'm so excited that you 514 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: did a show today on Canary Row and Monterey. My 515 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: first job out of college was working at the registrar's 516 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: office at the Naval Postgraduate School. I worked in Herman Hall, 517 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: which is the historic Hotel del Monte. Today the building 518 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: is used for administrative offices for the school, but it 519 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: is also still a working hotel under Navy Gateway in 520 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: in suites. I have stayed there many times since leaving Monterey, 521 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: and it's a treat. You do need to be affiliated 522 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: with the military to stay there. Though the old hotel 523 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: building is opulent and beautiful, it's neat to explore. Is 524 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: there at least a dozen ways to get to any 525 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: single room or office. My office was in the basement 526 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: of the building, which was still lovely. There is a 527 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: bar in the basement of the hotel called the Trident 528 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: Room that opened around three pm every day. I sat 529 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: at the registrar window where students could come and add 530 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: and drop classes, and my days went to five pm. 531 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: And more than once a student who had enjoyed the 532 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: Trident room a little too much, wandered around the corner, 533 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: discovered our office and asked me about changing grades. I 534 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: have many dear memories of working at NPS, and I 535 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: even met my husband at a new student orientation in 536 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: the ballroom of Herman Hall. At the time, I had 537 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: a personal rule against dating any military officer students because 538 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a military spouse and get 539 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: uprooted every few years. Well, I have been a Navy 540 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: spouse for eight years and I have lived all around 541 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: the country and loved it. Thank you for the podcast. 542 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed reading a little more about what's 543 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: going on these days at Hotel del Monte. Julie, thank 544 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: you so much. Congratulations eight years later on your wedding. Um, 545 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing this little bit of history. I 546 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: have suspected that it is probably really, really beautiful inside 547 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: that building still, so it's good to hear that that 548 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: is in fact the case. If you would like to 549 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: write to us, you can do so at History Podcast. 550 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: At i heeart radio dot com. You can also find 551 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: us everywhere on social media as Missed in History. You 552 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: can subscribe to the podcast anywhere you listen, that includes 553 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: the I heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, and everywhere else. 554 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of 555 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 556 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 557 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. H