1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, your 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: weekly podcast that is this time three weeks, well, still weekly? 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: Why do I call it a weekly podcast? Once twice 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 2: a week. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and I talk 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 2: about cool people who did cool Stuff on my podcast 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: called Cool People Did Cool Stuff. And I have Mi 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: along with me as my guest. Himya Hello. 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 3: I am Oh. You know I said it was excited 10 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 3: for the last time I was on this show. I 11 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 3: am even more excited for this one. Oh God. 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: I ruined what it was going to be about because 13 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: I asked Mia to be part of a six parter 14 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: and I was like, I can't not tell her. Also 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 2: in on the loop is my producer, Sophie Hi. 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 3: Sophie Hi, MIA's here. Yeah. 17 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: Mia is the host of It Can Happen Here, which 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: is a daily podcast about things that could or could 19 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: not happen here wherever you're listening. 20 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: Every time I hear that we have a daily podcast, 21 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, why did we do that? 22 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: That's a lot of work. 23 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: And then I'm like, oh, wait, we did agree to 24 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: do that, didn't We don't do daily podcast friends. 25 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 3: The fun thing about it is that so I've been 26 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 3: doing this for about almost three years now, and the 27 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: number of episodes I have done exceeds the episode count 28 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: of entire like decade long running shows because you just 29 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 3: do so many of them. 30 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: That's that's exactly true. Like like I genuinely feel because 31 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: of the amount of content we put on in Coal 32 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: Zone Media that we're just absorbing and spreading so much 33 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: information to people that like the and its quality despite 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: the quantity. And that's why we're so cool. It's just 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: like the whole paragraph of bragging. 36 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 3: Can we move off? Yeah? 37 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 2: Also, really good at their job is Daniel, our audio engineer. 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: Every wants to say hi to Daniel. 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: I'll miss you. 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: Our theme music is written for us by unwoman. And 41 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: here's something that I'm surprised none of us have talked 42 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: about sooner. 43 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: Mia. 44 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of revolution? 45 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 3: No? Unfamiliar with the terms. Isn't that when the isn't 46 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: that when the hand on the clock goes around in 47 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: a circle? 48 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: Yes, and it can only go clockwise, not Witter shins. 49 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: That's this metaphor, isn't That's what it's called when you 50 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: are really into witchy pullshit? 51 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 3: Aha? 52 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? Uh, sun Wise and Witter shins those are, but 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: that metaphor doesn't hold up. I guess you could have 54 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: a right wing and left wing room. We are today 55 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: the talking about a whole lot of Russian revolutions in 56 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: a short period of time, like we're going to talk 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: about four of them over the next two weeks three weeks. 58 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: We are going to talk about the Russian revolutions, the 59 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: ones you've heard of, plus a few others that were 60 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: part of the ones that you've heard of, and we're 61 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: going to talk about how they were hijacked by a 62 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: few power hungry authoritarians, and about how a pluralistic group 63 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 2: of rebels who actually cared about socialism fought like hell 64 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: to live up to the famous slogan of the Russian Revolution, 65 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: All power to the Soviets. I suppose here it's worth 66 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: pointing out that Soviet means workers council, like a decentralized, 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: bottom up decision making body that would be the center 68 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: of a communist society. The crux of this story is 69 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: the story of the Kronstadt Rebellion, when a bunch of 70 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: sailors in an island fortress declared that whether the Bolsheviks 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: liked it or not, the actual promised revolution was going 72 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: to happen. It was going to be politically pluralist, it 73 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: was going to be bottom up, it was going to 74 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: be democratic, it was going to be full of freedom 75 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: and equality. And they had an awful lot of guns 76 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: and artillery with which to back up that particular position 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: of theirs. They wanted a society where power resided in 78 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: the actual soviets, not in political parties. That was the 79 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: kind of core demand, was that it's not about one 80 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: political party ruling things, but instead a democratic, horizontal society. 81 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: These sailors from Cronstadt were the shock troops of the revolution, 82 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: and they had been for years. They were some of 83 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: the best fighters who had just won two revolutions in 84 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: a row and a whole ass civil war. They worked 85 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: in coordination with the workers in needby Saint Petersburg who 86 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: were being killed for strikes and labor organizing, and in 87 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: classic cool people who did cool stuff for They didn't 88 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: win the entire twentieth century and onward would look drastically 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: different if they had. 90 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: There's a line from Oh God, some episode of Mike 91 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 3: Duncan's Revolutions podcast where he's talking about this, where there's 92 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: a line from one of the Bolsheviks where he says 93 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: we will be our own Thermidor in reference to the 94 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 3: Therridorian reaction that ended the sort of high revolutionary period 95 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: of the French Revolution. Yeah, and I think about that 96 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: all the time, because the Bolsheviks leadership was literally literally 97 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: just said we are going to do the counter revolution, 98 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: and then they did it, and then they rewrote history. 99 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: I think they would forget that they did it. 100 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: That is one of the main things I keep running 101 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: across as I've been researching these episodes, which I'm not 102 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: even done researching. I'm like, I researched today's topics, but 103 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 2: I keep running across them being the people who created 104 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: the counter revolution, the Bolsheviks, who probably need no introduction, 105 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: but were the party that became the Communist Party and 106 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: ruled the USSR for an awfully long time. 107 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 108 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: So many of them were so completely aware of exactly 109 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 2: what they were doing by becoming the counter revolution, and 110 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: some of them even called it ahead of time, like Trotsky. 111 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: Leon Trotsky, who will talk about more later, was like, 112 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: oh yeah in nineteen oh four, before the nineteen seventeen revolution, 113 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 2: he was like, oh, well, if we do it this way, 114 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 2: it's gonna lead to and then he described exactly what 115 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: went wrong with the Russian Revolution, and then he just 116 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: did it anyway. But if the Kranschatz Sailors had won, 117 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: there would be no moral leg to stand on in 118 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: the West to condemn Soviet Communism, because it would have 119 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: been communism. It would have been a stateless society of 120 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: free equals. The Krannschat Sailors didn't win. They fought like hell. 121 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: For each Krunschat soldier who died, ten of their foes 122 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: died first. A good chunk of them got away across 123 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: the ice to Finland, and in the end they lived 124 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: vaguely free for many years. Their battle forced the Bolsheviks 125 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: to lighten up on their authoritarianism, just the slightest bit 126 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: for a little while, just something. But it's a tragic story. 127 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: The collapse of the Kronschat Rebellion was the collapse of 128 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: the Russian Revolution. It was the final nail in the 129 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: coffin for the fight for actual socialism. Like a lot 130 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: of our stories, it's only a victory in that it's 131 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: a victory of the human spirit. People will always be 132 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: ready to fight for liberty, for free speech, and for 133 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: economic equality, so I'm gonna tell you this story about 134 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 2: Kronschat sailors. In order to do that, I'm going to 135 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: tell you the story of the Russian Revolution. And while 136 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: I'm at it, I'm going to tell you the story 137 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: of the revolution that came before the Russian Revolution, and 138 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: then the revolution that came before that, because there was 139 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: a lot of them. And to do that, I'm going 140 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: to tell you about the country it happened in Russia. 141 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: Going are we going back to the Mongols or is 142 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: it too we Oh, we're starting before the Mongols, Oh, Premongles, Yay, 143 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: we're starting with Vikings. I'm going to fast forward through 144 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: most of Russian history. But I like taking this little 145 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: big picture. If you the first time I cover a 146 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: country more in depth, you know, if you want to 147 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: hear more. 148 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: Do you like context, Margaret? 149 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:29,679 Speaker 2: I do? 150 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: Wow? 151 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: Like context? 152 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's so interesting And I never do that 153 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 1: about you. 154 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Context, the show that's. 155 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: That did context stuff. 156 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, people who did cool stuff to help other people 157 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: do cool stuff so that we might do cool stuff. 158 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: Is actually kind of the point. So the idea of 159 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: Russia goes back to around the late eight hundreds, depending 160 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: on you could just I mean there's been people living 161 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: there for a very long time, right, So it all 162 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 2: depends on how you're counting. The story of Russia actually 163 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: starts in Ukraine, or rather the city of Kiev, currently 164 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: the capital of Ukraine. In eight eighty two, a Viking 165 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 2: guy named Oleg captured Kiev in united Northern and Southern 166 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: Slavs under his rule, Slavs being the ethnic group that 167 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 2: was already living there in what was known as Kievan Rus. 168 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: And in this society, the Norse vikings or the aristocracy, 169 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: like the ethnic groups from elsewhere, were kind of in charge. 170 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: Eventually they sort of assimilated one hundred years ago, by 171 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: nine to eighty eight, they go formally Christian. Kievan Rus 172 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: lasted until the Mongols invaded twelve thirty seven to twelve forty. 173 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: And I think that history, like I think that Western 174 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: history doesn't talk enough about the Mongols. 175 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 3: No, really, I mean this is one of the I 176 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 3: don't know. The Mongol divisions are really interesting because there's 177 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 3: you get like two very very well not very different, 178 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: but you get two written accounts of it from like 179 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: for very very different civilizations. You get you get you 180 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 3: get accounts from the various Chinese dynasties all getting destroyed, 181 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: and then you also get these the Islamic World accounts, 182 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 3: and both of them are just like, oh my god, 183 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: this is the worst thing that has ever happened, running 184 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: around screaming, and then the Western accounts of it are like, yeah, 185 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: there were trade routes now, and it's like like this 186 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: was this was literally the apocalypse for entire civilizations right then, 187 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 3: Like well all the water story's like, oh yeah, but 188 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 3: like you could move food from one side of the 189 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: world to the other. It's like, oh boy. 190 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 2: Okay, But how much of that is the fact that, 191 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: like Europe was kind of a backwater as compared to 192 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: places like the Islamic World and China, which were like 193 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: the centers of actual civilization and things like that. 194 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 3: So oh, definitely a lot of it. 195 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: So maybe Europe was like, oh, thank god, we have roads. 196 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe I don't know. It probably was 197 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: pretty bad to get invaded by the Mongols. And one 198 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 2: of the things that I didn't realize when I was 199 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: younger about the Mongol invasion is it wasn't that they 200 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 2: just like kind of came and then killed everyone and 201 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: then left. Like the area that is now Russia was 202 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 2: there's a word for this. They had to give money 203 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: to the Mongols for hundreds of years. There's a word here, 204 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: I don't remember, vassal. It was a vassal state. The 205 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: main thing you'd call Russia at this point after the 206 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: invasion of the Mongols in twelve thirty seven is the 207 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: Grand Duchy of Moscow, and it is a vassal to 208 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: the Mongols, which they slowly start beating back over the 209 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: course of centuries. Ivan two did most of the hard 210 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 2: work of beating back the Mongols, and this Ivan hated Catholics, 211 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: so he set up kind of a curtain between Russia 212 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: and the West. As best as I can tell, this 213 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: is kind of where that idea that Russia's like not 214 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: Europe really starts coming in his kid Ivan the Third 215 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: was also named Ivan the Terrible. He was not a 216 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: great man. He set up the Zardam in five point 217 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: forty seven. Mister the Terrible got his name because he 218 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 2: killed everyone who disagreed with him. There's a lot of 219 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: like very Russian stuff that is still true today that 220 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: has been true for hundreds of years, and one of 221 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: them is this, like autocrats love Russia, you know, Yeah, 222 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 2: And The other is that the way that Russia is 223 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 2: going to solve like all of its war problems forever 224 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: is by having really bad guns, really bad coordination, and 225 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: just tons and tons of people and a complete lack 226 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: of care for the lives of those people. But by 227 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: sixteen thirteen you get Michael Romanov. I didn't look up 228 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: it's spelled Michael, but I don't think it's Michael. And 229 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 2: he's the first Romanov dynasty guy. The Romanovs are going 230 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: to rule until nineteen seventeen, and that's going to be 231 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: shattered by this week's protagonists bringing down three hundred years 232 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: of Roman navian Is, which is totally a word under 233 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: the Tsars. Russia really gets going. They're conquering Siberia like 234 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: it's their own wild West, which means that they're subjugating 235 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: indigenous people. As they go east. They're taking chunks of 236 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: what's now western Ukraine and Poland and Finland and what's 237 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: now the US. I think that people in the US 238 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: don't quite on some level. I think people know, like 239 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 2: oh I did. They used to have Alaska, but they 240 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: also had a bunch of Hawaii and a fort in 241 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: Sonoma County, California. 242 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 3: Do you know that I think I knew about I 243 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 3: think I knew about Californa. I didn't know they were 244 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 3: in Hawaii. 245 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: I only know the real surface level of that part 246 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: of the story, as in I read one sentence that 247 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: said that that's all I know about their life, so nuts, 248 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: I know more about their Alaskan and Californian thing. 249 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like the thing with Russia is that. Okay, 250 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 3: so like one of the things that we've well, I 251 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: say we've a lot of people have become very good 252 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: at recognizing what an empire looks like when it looks 253 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: like the British Empire, where okay, so the British empier 254 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: has all these colonies. But then people look at Russia 255 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: and go, oh, this is one state, and it's like, no, 256 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: this is a this is a land empire. This is 257 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: an older kind of empire. But people don't recognize it 258 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: and don't recognize like the extent to which they just 259 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: sort of marched east and then also like went through 260 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: Alaska and yeah. 261 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you're right. It's because it's contiguous. People are like, oh, well, 262 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: all that's Russia as if and I mean every country, 263 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: every single state in the world is on some level 264 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: this right, Like England isn't just the angles, you know, 265 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: like it was created, it's it. Yeah, No, I absolutely. 266 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: Russia is such a good example of this, like what 267 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: gets looked at as internal colonization, but is it wasn't 268 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: internal at the time. 269 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 270 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, they just pushed through. I mean this is the 271 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: thing with China too, like you get you get these 272 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: land empires done, and China's later than most because I 273 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 3: mean they're still like the invade to bet in like 274 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: the late in like the forties. But yeah, people just 275 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 3: don't I don't know, there's there's there's something about the 276 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: sort of solidity, seeming solidity of nation state borders that 277 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: projects so legitimacy back to make people forget that, like, no, 278 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: they just conquered these places and killed the people there totally. 279 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: And actually even like the when I was like, wow, 280 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: they had Alaska and part of California. The reason that 281 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: like blew my mind. On one level, it was like, oh, 282 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: because it's the US. But the other is that yeah, 283 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: it's where it wasn't contiguous, right, But it was just 284 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: they're like, well, we're just gonna keep going east, and 285 00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: they're like, oh, there's some water, and they're like, well, 286 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: it's get on a boat and keep going east, you know, 287 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: and they It also is really useful to think about because, 288 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: like I think the average American listener is more aware 289 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: of indigenous populations in North America as indigenous populations, but 290 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: it's the same thing that they are doing as they 291 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: march east through Siberia and then they get to Alaska 292 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: and they absolutely fuck up and kill indigenous people there. Right. 293 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: They used Alaska as a fur trade center until they 294 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 2: depleted the population of bears and seotters and wolves and 295 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: foxes to where it wasn't profitable anymore, so they sold 296 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: it to the US in eighteen sixty seven for the 297 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: modern equivalent of one hundred and fifty seven million dollars. 298 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: They fought indigenous peoples all along the eastward expansion, and 299 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: those people fought back, and Russia was also constantly fighting 300 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire to the south. Slowly gaining territory, Russia 301 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: becomes the largest country in the world, which it remains. 302 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: It is the largest country in the world, not by 303 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: population but by land mass. By seventeen twenty one, the 304 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: capitol moves from Moscow to Saint Petersburg, and this country, 305 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: this powerful empire. It is huge and powerful, so powerful. 306 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: I use powerful three times total in this sentence. And 307 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: it is generally seen as kind of backwards. It is 308 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: very agricultural, partly because do you know the reason it 309 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: stayed agriculture is because they didn't get the potato for 310 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 2: a really long time. Oh my god, that's so funny, 311 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: like because it is like not really the best. I mean, 312 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: obviously they grow a lot of wheat, especially in the 313 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: Ukraine area, right, but like overall, like you're talking about 314 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: like a lot of like kind of rugged terrain, right. 315 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is like yat grazing land, but it's not 316 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 3: like it's not great. 317 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so potatoes, if you want to be like 318 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: sedentary and grow crops, the almighty potato is the like 319 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: way that you do it. And they didn't get it 320 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: until a little bit later, right, because it's an import 321 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: from the New World, you know, And so they had 322 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: to grow a ton of food in order not style. 323 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: All the time they kept trying to modernize and western eyze, 324 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: like when the Czar Catherine the Great, who coued her 325 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 2: own husband to take power in the mid eighteenth century, 326 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: I don't actually know a ton about her yet, But 327 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: and it stayed autocratic as fuck for years, and most 328 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: of the modernization didn't trickle down to the peasants. Russia 329 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 2: always had a huge army relative to its population, poorly 330 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: trained and armed, and their strategy was leaders throw poorly 331 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 2: armed conscripts at the problem until the problem is solved. 332 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: This was true for the Czars, and it's going to 333 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: be true for the Bolsheviks. It is, as people point out, 334 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: one of the strategies that defeated the Nazis. I think 335 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: that there could have been other strategies that could. 336 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 3: Have been used. As Yeah, we've. 337 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: Talked more about Russia in the nineteenth century. One of 338 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: our first episodes about the Nihilists, and of course about 339 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: its folklore bitten our episodes about Bobby Yaga, So if 340 00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: you want, you can go back and listen to those. 341 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: But in the nineteenth century there's a whole bunch of 342 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 2: groups that are like what if not autocracy though, and 343 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 2: one of the ways that they're going to express their 344 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: disinterest in the Romanov dynasty is by shooting, stabbing, and 345 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 2: exploding their rulers. Also, interestingly, none of them map up 346 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 2: to like the Western leftist social socialist positions at the time. 347 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: These groups we are talking about they are not Marxists 348 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: and they are not anarchists. They are inspired by both 349 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: of those groups, especially the anarchists, but they're social democrats 350 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: with knives or some of them are like centrists, and 351 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 2: to be a centrist when you live under a zar, 352 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: you kind of got to go to war against the czar. Yeah, 353 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: like the center right has to go to war against 354 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: the czar. The center right is actually going to kick 355 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: off the nineteen oh five revolution, but we'll talk about 356 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 2: that in a minute. The crisis of rush On the 357 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: nineteenth century, according to most people who lived there, was 358 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: that everyone was poor and starving, and authoritarian rule sucks, 359 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: and specifically the freedom of the serfs didn't actually make 360 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 2: their lives batter enough. The crisis of Russia, according to 361 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: history books, is the crisis of modernization. They weren't good 362 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: at modernizing, and when they did, modernization challenged autocratic rule 363 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,239 Speaker 2: because modernizing meant now you have new social classes, like 364 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: you have a middle social class, and you have the intelligentsia, 365 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: and you have students, and you have an industrial urban 366 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: proletariat and all those other troublesome classes also we have 367 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: all the angry peasants who are no longer serfs but 368 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: don't have any access to land. But you know how 369 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 2: they could have made their lot better. Mia buying potatoes 370 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 2: from our sponsor were comeing full circle, the almighty potato 371 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: our only sponsor. And if you don't want to buy it, 372 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: grow your own. They're great. 373 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: I think I got a potato ad on here one time. 374 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 3: It was very hot. 375 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, people have messaged me saying that. 376 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: I'm I'm here for it, host red Ad. Don't necessarily 377 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: buy potatoes that you don't want, but growing potatoes and 378 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 2: the concept of potatoes real interesting. Although when I first 379 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: started this podcast, I didn't know quite as much about 380 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: how deep the potato goes. So here's ads for potatoes. 381 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 4: And we're back. 382 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: We've emerged from the potato hole. Yeah way down. 383 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you just have to build up. You stack 384 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: up the dirt on top of the potato, you build 385 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: the hole. That's a little potato gardening advice with Margaret, 386 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 2: who has not eaten any potatoes she's grown, even though 387 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 2: she's tried several times. But that's because she doesn't stay 388 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: home long enough to harvest her crops. She travels too 389 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: much live alone anyway. So the nineteenth century is coming 390 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 2: to an end, and there's a revolution to foment, and 391 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: you have people who want to do the fomenting. By 392 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: the dawn of the twentieth century, you start getting a 393 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: bunch of the major players. And so we're going to 394 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: talk about them, and we're going to start with the 395 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: one that doesn't have a Western analog. We're going to 396 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 2: start with the least understood group, the SRS. Ah, Yes, 397 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: the socialist revolutionaries. Doesn't it sound simple. You hear the name, yeah, 398 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: and you try to figure out what the difference you 399 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: to left and or right SR is. It's like, oh, yeah, 400 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: what I love reading history books from this time because 401 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: they'll be like the moderate wing of the anarchists and 402 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 2: then the extremeist wing of the anarchists, or even the 403 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: right wing of the anarchists and the left wing of 404 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: the anarchists. And when they say that, they don't mean 405 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: right wing, like we have a right wing now. It 406 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: wasn't like an caps it wasn't an arco capitalist. It 407 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: was like the anarchists who didn't want to kill everyone, 408 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: or like the anarchists who are kind of liberal or whatever. 409 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: You know. 410 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: The srs. It sounds like they'd be simple. They're the 411 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: revolutionary socialists because they're socialist revolutionaries, right, But they don't, 412 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: like we've been saying, they don't map to a traditional 413 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: Western understanding of this. They grew out instead of a 414 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: different group, they grew out of a nineteenth century revolutionary tradition, 415 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: the Neurodnicks, and we talk about more than more on 416 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: the Nihilist episode. I really kind of like them, like 417 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 2: not necessarily, like, oh, their ideological theory is like the 418 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: best ideological theory or whatever, but like they're the eco hippies, 419 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: Like they're nice. I don't know if you have. 420 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 3: It's funny because the one sentence description that like I 421 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 3: always see is people just call them populist, and it's 422 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: like that tells you literally nothing of what they actually believe. 423 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: Like now, calling them eco hippies is a better way 424 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 2: to describe. 425 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 3: Yeah. 426 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: I think they were agrarian socialists, which meant they were 427 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: very specifically not Marxists, because Karl Marx, for all his 428 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: I was I have nothing whatever, he fucking hated peasants. 429 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 2: That's what I was saying, Karl Marx. The Neurodnicks were 430 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: basically these student hippies who decided to go be among 431 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: the people. So that's they're like populism, right, but yeah, no, populois. 432 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: Populus is a meaningless word. It can be used for everything. 433 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: And they're heavily inspired by a whole bunch of different people, 434 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 2: including I believe Peter Kropotkin and Bakunin, but also a 435 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: whole lot of non anarchists. Those are two big anarchist 436 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: theorists that we're going to talk about in a little bit. 437 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: And they're inspired by all these people and they're like, Okay, 438 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 2: we're going to go out among the people and live 439 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: there and talk about revolution and talk about like collectivizing 440 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: and you know, all this things and going to the 441 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: people to educate them about socialism and revolution. Didn't quite work. 442 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: But the way it's usually described as this abject failure, 443 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: and it wasn't an abject failure. It was a complicated mix. 444 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: After the serfs had been freed in eighteen sixty one, 445 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: they were basically cast unceremoniously into the malls of capitalism. 446 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 2: The neurotniks were like, well, what if we keep the 447 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 2: communes that you all were using, like to feed yourself 448 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: under when you were serfs, but just get rid of 449 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: the noble who owns you. Like, what if instead of 450 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: falling now into capitalism and splitting up the land and 451 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: no one can has enough good land to eat, you 452 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: keep the system that kept you fed, and then you 453 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: just get rid of the thing that was siphoning off 454 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: all your food, the noble. But most of them are 455 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: middle and upper class kids, and going to the people 456 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 2: didn't necessarily win people over end mass, but a ton 457 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: of them just like realized they liked peasant life and 458 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: stuck around. And also whenever you're like, oh, they were 459 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: like hippies or whatever, or like the state hunted them, 460 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 2: just absolutely like spread out across the country being like 461 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 2: are you all harboring hippies? You know? And there's all 462 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 2: kinds of stories of peasant villages banning together to defend 463 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: their hippie transplants. Yeah, it's like a whole They're like, no, 464 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 2: that guy taught me how to read. I'm not giving 465 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: him up, Like that's our doctor. Why would we tell 466 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: you where he is. One thing that came out of 467 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 2: the neurodnicks are the nihilists, who are basically social democrats 468 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 2: who like bombs an awful lot and they came out 469 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 2: of a kind of hipster class. That's like, they sort 470 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: of came out of the Ironnicks, and they sort of 471 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: came out of this group that was like called the Nihilists, 472 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: but wasn't quite what the Nihilists became. Like, the Nihilists 473 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 2: started off as like a like beatnicky kind of thing, 474 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 2: and then they were like, instead of just being a counterculture, 475 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: they were like, Okay, now we're serious heart and revolutionaries. 476 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 2: Much like how the sixties nineteen sixties culture counterculture like 477 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 2: gave way to the early seventies, you know, committed revolutionaries 478 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: in the United States. The exact same thing happened in 479 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 2: the eighteen sixties and eighteen seventies in Russia. The Nihilists 480 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: eventually killed the vaguely progressive Alexander the Second in eighteen 481 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: eighty one, and so Alexander the Third took power and 482 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 2: was like, well, I'm a fucking autocrat. Fuck all of you, 483 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 2: fuck westernizing, fuck democracy, fuck free speech, fuck all the 484 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 2: ethnic minorities. We were obsessed with rucification. And in particular, 485 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 2: can you guess what ethnic minority they particularly hated. 486 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 3: Are they are the antisemites? 487 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: They are they hated the Jews, oh God, which is 488 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: a long tradition in Russia. Yeah, Alexander the Third he 489 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: died young, but sadly he died of illness and not 490 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 2: of justice. The other thing that came out of the Neurotnicks, 491 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 2: and the reason we went on there's a whole long tangent, 492 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: is that the SRS came out of the neurotniks. They 493 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: formed in nineteen oh one or nineteen oh two. I 494 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: have read both from the neo neurotonics, which were the 495 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: group of people being like, man, those people sure had 496 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: it right, and then people were like, not only they 497 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: have it right, but we should form a revolutionary organization 498 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 2: and start trying to get some shit done. They are 499 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: a grarian socialists who aren't Marxists. They want to overthrow 500 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: the czar and redistribute land to the peasants. And you 501 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 2: know what most annoying things about there's a lot of 502 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: annoying things about leftism. One of the annoying things is 503 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: the split between the worker, by which people mean the 504 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 2: proletariat aka someone who works in a factory or whatever 505 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: in a city, and then the peasants. And famously marx 506 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 2: kept assuming peasants were all reactionaries and right wing. I 507 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: think this is fairly easy for the modern listener to understand. 508 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: Think about how modern liberals assume that all poor rural 509 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 2: people in America are Maga Trump supporters. 510 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're also Like part of it too, 511 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 3: is all of these people, everyone down the line, every 512 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 3: single one of these people who's going to be in 513 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 3: this revolution or like all of this intelligence of people's marks. 514 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: Two are like haunted by the French Revolution and in 515 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 3: the French Revolution, like there are a lot of like 516 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 3: you know, like the thing that they're haunted by is 517 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 3: like this image of like Paris standing alone is like 518 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 3: the loan revolutionary city, and this like whole nation of reactionaries. 519 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 3: It's like it was never quite true, but it's what 520 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 3: like it's what shapes the way that they all think 521 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 3: about this that makes sense. 522 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: And like, you know, all of the class analysis that 523 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: Marx did, And Marx did a lot of good work 524 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: as an economist, I will give him that. And the 525 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: class position of a peasant is very different than the 526 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: class position of a proletarian worker, Like the relationship to 527 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: the means of production is fundamentally different. And I can 528 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: see why he got the idea that there was therefore 529 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: something intrinsic to that relationship that made them right wing. 530 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: But you have this thing like the Paris Commune, Friend 531 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: of the Pod, one of the first episodes we did. 532 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: You go back and listen to it. We haven't done 533 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: the French Revolution yet. I have to find people I 534 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: like in it. 535 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 536 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: Sorry, A bunch of assholes killed a bunch of other 537 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 2: assoles and then killed each other. Somewhere along the way 538 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,719 Speaker 2: there was a bunch of really good meaning people actually, 539 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 2: and at some point I need to just do the 540 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: fucking Enlightenment and all that shit. But I kind of whatever. Anyway, 541 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: during the Paris Commune, you have this thing too, right 542 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: where the Paris Commune stood alone, But there they didn't. 543 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: There were other communes in other smaller cities. And one 544 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: of the things that happened was Bakunin and a bunch 545 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: of anarchists and other people. I actually don't know if 546 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: Pacunen was an anarchist here at this point. 547 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 4: No. 548 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: I think he was went to I think Leon, but 549 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: I'm not sure off the top of my head. They 550 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: went to a smaller area and they were like, oh, 551 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: we're going to organize people. What was that was it marse. 552 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 3: And my Marseille, I fague members of your merci. I 553 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 3: could be completely wrong about it. I don't know. 554 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: And Marx was like, fuck, you don't go to those. 555 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: You know, the peasants are all reactionary, you can't organize them. 556 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 2: And I've had conversations with like one of my friends 557 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: feels firmly that this is the reason that Paris stood 558 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: alone and therefore was not able to succeed, you know, 559 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: was that this idea of writing off everyone else is 560 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: counter revolutionary. But yeah, I mean, but it's also like 561 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 2: you look at rural America and it is not a 562 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: left wing space right now. 563 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: You know. 564 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: Anyway, all of the Russian revolutionaries are, including the Marxists, 565 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: and I believe Marx himself are going to get over 566 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: themselves on this issue and be like, oh, actually, in Russia, 567 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: the peasants can be the revolutionary class. They're allowed. 568 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. It's funny because Marx, right like the end of 569 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 3: his life, he writes a letter to some of the 570 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 3: revolutionaries on Russia where he talks about like, oh, the 571 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 3: commune could be a basis, and then all of the 572 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 3: subsequent Bolsheviks basically ignore him. Yeah, nope, we need to 573 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 3: do hyper capitalism first to make these people proletarias and 574 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: then they could be socialists. Oh we'll talk about that part. 575 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh god, I mean I think that that's actually 576 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: like again, like I am not a huge Marxist, that's 577 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: not my thing. I actually think that Marx was a 578 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: really interesting economist who was primarily incorrect about how revolutions work. 579 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: That is my take. 580 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: But the one thing that I got to hand it 581 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: to him, he wasn't a Marxist, you know, like I 582 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: think he even said that doesn't even core. 583 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 3: Yes, it's like if yeah, it's like if this is 584 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 3: what Marxism is and I'm not a Marxist, and then 585 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: the product of that is there's been one hundred and 586 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 3: fifty years of people calling themselves Marxians because it's not Marxist. 587 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: Ex And like, from my point of view, I think 588 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: what the thing that I respect about Marx is that 589 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: on some level he was willing to take in new 590 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: information and change what he believed based on new information. 591 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: A lot of his fun not all of a huge 592 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: number of people who do come from the Marxist tradition 593 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,239 Speaker 2: are also capable of doing that, but it's it's hit 594 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: or miss. So yeah, eventually the Marxist in Russia are 595 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: going to get over themselves because they're like, oh, only 596 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: people who are going to throw down our peasants, not 597 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: only people, but this is a peasant country, right, Yeah. 598 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: And later in the story you're going to have people 599 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: start talking about the toilers, which the first couple of 600 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: times I read that, I was like, why did someone 601 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: translate that word that way? I assume that they met 602 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: worker and they didn't. Toiler meant someone meant both the 603 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 2: workers and the peasants, And I thought that was cool. 604 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: It's not a it doesn't flow off the tongue. 605 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, you need well, I mean, to be fair, It's 606 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 3: better than the it's better than the Maoist formulation, which 607 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 3: is just to say workers and peasants every single time 608 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 3: and occasionally adding students. It's like, it's like because like 609 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 3: most not all, but like because of the history of 610 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 3: the left in China, like a lot of modern Chinese 611 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 3: leftists are still Maoists. So you'll you'll be reading something 612 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 3: they write and it's mostly fine, and then they'll start 613 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 3: talking about the student worker peasant alliance, all written out 614 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 3: like that. It's just like oh yeah, God. 615 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 2: I get why it became cringy later, but I understand 616 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 2: why Graber and others came up with the ninety nine 617 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: percent as the way to formulate this. Yeah, there are 618 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: the people who make their money off of owning stuff, 619 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: and then there are people who make their money by 620 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 2: working anyway, So the SRS back to our socialist revolutionaries 621 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: who aren't Marxists. But as soon as they form they're like, well, 622 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: we actually do want to include the workers in this revolution, 623 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: the non peasant workers, and so they start kind of 624 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 2: bridging some gaps with Marxism and Marxists, and they do 625 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: a lot of urban organizing and start recruiting urban workers 626 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 2: as well, and overall at the beginning they're kind of 627 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 2: revolutionary moderates in some ways. They are down to throw down, 628 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: and they inherited some of the nihilist forebears love of 629 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 2: a good assassination. Yeah, they and the anarchists are going 630 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 2: to be in fierce competition for how many heads of 631 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 2: state can we put bonus holes into? So good so yeah, 632 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 2: but their general goals are the establishment of a republic, 633 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 2: a socialist republic, you know, rather than like whatever. They're 634 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 2: slightly more moderate some of their demands. The SRS are 635 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: a really major party and they're pretty interesting. Then I 636 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: swear to God, if you all make it through me 637 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: talking about Bolsheviks versus Mensheviks, we're gonna get We're gonna 638 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 2: get to some people setting fire to hay stacks of 639 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: rich people. We will get there. You just gotta you 640 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: gotta muscle through this with us, and we promise to 641 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 2: try and make it entertaining. 642 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 3: Interminable intra party disputes. 643 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 2: But that's a bullet thing, I know. And that's actually 644 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: the thing that keeps coming up. Whenever you read history books, 645 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 2: they're always like and then and it's just like eighteen 646 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: pages of this version of the narcos syndicalist who're mad 647 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: at that version of the narcissentticlists And I don't care. 648 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: On some level, I care because it's it's necessary sometimes, 649 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 2: But overall, this is not gonna be a podcast about 650 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: like all of the different blow by blow and then 651 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: the Mensheviks and the blah blah blah blah blah. I'm 652 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 2: much more interested in the broad strokes, and I'm also 653 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 2: specifically with the Russian Revolution. I'm interested in how you've 654 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 2: got these like parties right, and then ideologies because the 655 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: anarchists aren't a party, but they're still kind of one 656 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: of them. And then you got everyone doing the revolution 657 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: and they're kind of not these groups like these are 658 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 2: the groups that are trying to direct an organic and 659 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: flowing force, but the force itself is literally made up 660 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 2: of the people and not party politics. But I think 661 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 2: it's still worth Everyone is always talking about the Russian 662 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 2: Social Democratic Labor Party, Like I can't even stop in 663 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,479 Speaker 2: at tractor supply in town here to pick up malch 664 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 2: and dog food. The cashiers talking about the Russian Social 665 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 2: Democratic Labor Party just kidding, only sort of kidding. This 666 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 2: is the group that will become divided between the Bolsheviks 667 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: and the Mensheviks. I'm willing to bet most people who 668 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: are listening to this have heard of at least the 669 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: Bolsheviks soon enough, like later they're going to change their 670 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 2: name to the Communist Party. So on some level, if 671 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 2: I hear a random person attractor supply talking shit about 672 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 2: the Communists, which hasn't actually happened, but it totally could, 673 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 2: they actually would be talking shit about the Russian Social 674 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: Democratic Labor Party because they're not talking about communism. When 675 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 2: people say the communist in the modern context, they're talking 676 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 2: about Bolshevism primarily, like if the random person in America, 677 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 2: not the random person who's like, no, I'm a Maoist 678 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 2: or whatever, cards on the table. As you all probably 679 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 2: figured out, I don't really like this group very much, 680 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 2: particularly the Bolsheviks. By the end of these episodes, you'll 681 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 2: understand why. The RSDLP, which I guess that's not what 682 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 2: they call themselves, because that's the America, the English version, 683 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: but whatever. The Social Democrats they formed an eighteen ninety 684 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 2: eight in Minsk and what's now Belarus, and their whole 685 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: thing was that they wanted to import Marxism to Russia. 686 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 2: And they were formed in a reaction to the neo Neuoniks, 687 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 2: the people who dared claim the peasants as a revolutionary class. 688 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 2: And there are some good people in this group, and 689 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: some good groups within this group, friends of the Pod, 690 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,240 Speaker 2: the Jewish Labor Bund, who do good and bad things 691 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 2: all throughout the following thing. But so out, yeah, no 692 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 2: one's no one's coming out of this perfect no ideology 693 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 2: is coming out of the Russian Revolution being like, oh, 694 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: them's the good guys but props of the Social Democratic 695 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: group the RSDLP. It's illegal right from the start, I know, 696 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 2: but it's illegal, so that always you can have a 697 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 2: crappy name. But if your groups illegal, it's got some 698 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 2: got some cred and they're like, look, I know that 699 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 2: proletarian workers are only three percent of the Russian population, 700 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 2: but Marx said that the only the urban proletary can 701 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 2: be the revolutionary class. So that's what we're into. In 702 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 2: nineteen oh three, the group splits, because that's what Marxist 703 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: groups do. I mean, so do the anarchists. We'll get 704 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 2: to them. Well, the anarchists don't formally split, they just 705 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 2: talk shit. But they these groups formally split. They split 706 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,439 Speaker 2: into the Bolsheviks, which means majority, and the Mensheviks, which 707 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: means minority. Here's the thing that you probably knew what 708 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 2: I didn't until I did this research. The Bolsheviks masters 709 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 2: of political propaganda, naming themselves the we're the smaller half. 710 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 3: Yep. Do you know more about this? 711 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 2: I've only got like a paragraph of what I put together, so, 712 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 2: oh god, I don't remember this. 713 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 3: There was some very specific vote, yeah, that was happening 714 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 3: inside of the party, and Lenin had like a I 715 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 3: had like a very small majority for one vote, and 716 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 3: he declared that now his fashion was the majority. And 717 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 3: then like literally the next day it was like, well, no, 718 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 3: you're no longer, you don't have this majority anymore. But 719 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 3: they just the name just stuck. 720 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm under the impression that they won that vote 721 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 2: because the Jewish labor booned and a bunch of other 722 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,479 Speaker 2: people stormed out and refused to participate that day because 723 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 2: they were so mad. 724 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 3: About it and the vote. 725 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: I believe this particular one was about whether or not, 726 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 2: as the Mensheviks wanted, they would be sort of big 727 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 2: tent with membership and they would be like, anyone can 728 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: be in this group if they like are either directly 729 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 2: affiliated or a little bit loosely affiliated and like, and 730 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 2: the Bolsheviks were like, no, we need a specific, tight 731 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:17,760 Speaker 2: elite group, a vanguard of highly disciplined folks, if you will. Yeah, 732 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 2: And this split is more or less permanent. The Mensheviks 733 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 2: will always be the more moderate, compromise minded and more 734 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 2: democratic faction. And what they do is disagree about next 735 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: only makes sense if you are so marx pilled that 736 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 2: you cannot see daylight. You see such cases oh do 737 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: they disagree about ads that They also disagreed about whether 738 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 2: or not this podcast should be sponsored advertisers. But they 739 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 2: don't have a say in it. They've all been dead 740 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 2: for a long time and I barely have a say 741 00:41:53,120 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 2: in it. And here's ads and we're back. 742 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 3: Okay. 743 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 2: The social democrats, Bolsheviks and Mensheviks alike, they want a revolution, 744 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 2: they want to create socialism. And there's a science to 745 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: these things. The immortal science is laid down in the 746 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 2: Gospel of Marks. Yeah, in that understanding of the world. 747 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 2: This is the thing that took me so long to 748 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 2: wrap my head around, because it makes no sense if 749 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 2: you don't come from a Marxist background. In that understanding 750 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: of the world, you can't go straight from an agrarian 751 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 2: autocratic society to a communist society. You can't even go 752 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 2: from an autocratic urban industrial society to a communist society. First, 753 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,399 Speaker 2: a country has to go through a bourgeois revolution, one 754 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 2: that leaves the rich rather than the aristocracy in charge. 755 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 2: Like I used to think of aristocracy as the rich, right, 756 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 2: But it's like the aristocracy is like the nobles and shit, right, 757 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 2: whereas the capitalist rich or the bourgeoisie, right, is to 758 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 2: tell me I'm getting anything is wrong, but this is 759 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 2: my yeah. 760 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So like the y, the aristocracy is a specifically 761 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 3: a feudal classes, feudal social relations. It's like kingship, your 762 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 3: duke's Yeah, and the borschosi is supposed to be a 763 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 3: different class, but it isn't. Like that's the thing like 764 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 3: a lot of countries, like they're just the same people 765 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 3: like this. This is the germid experience, right, It's like 766 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,800 Speaker 3: most of the most of the German bushes were just nobles. 767 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the things that like, and Marx 768 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 2: was really good at figuring out the economy of England, 769 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 2: where he like lived, even though it was German. But 770 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 2: the further you get from England, the more his like 771 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 2: his whole I don't even remember the name of it. 772 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 2: I feel like I probably can't even say it on air, 773 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,439 Speaker 2: the way like the oriental Oh yeah, the Asiatic mode 774 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 2: of production, there's a there's a Slavonic one too that 775 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: everyone forgets. You forget the Slavonic mode of production, so 776 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 2: sheerris yeah, And so it's like no scientist working in 777 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 2: the nineteen century, no social scientists working in the nineteenth 778 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 2: century got everything right. But what we do when we 779 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 2: care about science is we build on those things, and 780 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 2: we critique the old things and we build new things. Anyway, 781 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 2: the social democrats are fighting to have a bourgeois revolution 782 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 2: to put the rich in charge instead of the nobles. 783 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 2: They are fighting to empower the wealthy, to create a 784 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 2: liberal society so that the groundwork can be laid for 785 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 2: the people to become industrial proletarians and then seize power 786 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 2: in the communist Revolution. If you ever want to be angry, 787 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 2: read what Engles had to say about the Irish people 788 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 2: as relates to any of this, or really anyone who 789 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 2: is in English. Both the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks agreed that 790 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: this was the task in front of them, But what 791 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 2: they disagreed about so strongly that they could never work together. 792 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 2: I mean, they do eventually work together again on some stuff. 793 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 2: Is whether or not the revolutionary class of the bourgeois 794 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 2: revolution would be the bourgeois, or whether the peasants had 795 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,839 Speaker 2: to the people to make the bourgeois revolution. The Bolsheviks 796 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 2: were like, fuck it, we'll get the peasants. There's more 797 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 2: of them. Like they seem to be angry anyway, we'll 798 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 2: have them do the revolution to empower the liberals, whereas 799 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 2: the Mensheviks are like, no, it's the liberals who will 800 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 2: help the proletariat to have a revolution to empower the liberals. 801 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 2: I I fucking can't with these people. It's so funny 802 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 2: because so these brain worms have never stopped being a thing. 803 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 2: I mean, there are like you can you can see 804 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,240 Speaker 2: this in like Latin American elections. You will hear people 805 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 2: talking about how, oh well, we need to transition from 806 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 2: feudalism to capitalism because he never did it. Like the 807 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 2: Maoist Party in the Philippines, whove been doing this insurgency 808 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 2: for like fifty years. Their leader has an entire thing 809 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 2: about how the Philippines is still a feudalist society and 810 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 2: not a capitalist one because they don't have steel production. 811 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 2: I'm not making this up. It's in This brain worm 812 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 2: has stuck in the heads of people for hundreds of 813 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,399 Speaker 2: years and that and that's why I feel the need 814 00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 2: to explore this stuff in this week's episode, because I 815 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 2: think to unders stand what's going on in the Russian 816 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 2: Revolution and modern leftism, I think understanding these underlying ideas 817 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,280 Speaker 2: is worthwhile. Even though it's a minefield of brain worms, 818 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 2: which is a strange and visceral image. So next I'm 819 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 2: gonna talk about the anarchists, and they don't start where 820 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 2: at least I expected. I don't know if they're going 821 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 2: to start where you expected. I mean, when you think 822 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 2: of Russian anarchists, do you think that the first Russian anarchists. 823 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 2: When you think of them, do you think of Christian 824 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 2: pastfest hippies? 825 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,720 Speaker 3: Oh well yeah, because of toll story. 826 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,320 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and we got into it. Okay, you're smarter 827 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 2: than my ones. 828 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 3: Well this is this is partially because, like I think, 829 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,800 Speaker 3: Tolstoy was one of the first people I ever realized 830 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 3: was an anarchist, because like I grew up in a 831 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 3: really really Christian like community and that was like the first, 832 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,959 Speaker 3: like I don't know, that was like the first kind 833 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 3: of thing I ran into as like little baby Mia. 834 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 2: I mean, so your trajectory is very similar to the 835 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 2: Russian anarchist trajectory in this way. Two of the most 836 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 2: influential theoreticians of anarchism come from Russia. Possibly the two 837 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 2: most influential theoreticians of anarchism come from Russia. Bakunin and Kropotkin, 838 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,319 Speaker 2: both of them, their heyday is over by the time 839 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 2: we're talking about Bakunin's heyday is over because he's been 840 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 2: dead for twenty four years by the turn of the century. 841 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,399 Speaker 2: He died in eighteen seventy six. And his whole thing 842 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 2: was a little bit more insurrectionary, a little bit more, 843 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: you know, a little bit more he was into secret 844 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 2: societies and propaganda of the deed, and a little bit 845 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 2: more like cloak and daggers, emphasis on daggers. Kropotkin was 846 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 2: a biologist who studied and developed a lot of the 847 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 2: modern concepts of mutual aid, and his work is actually 848 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 2: still used when we talk about why animals are gay, 849 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 2: which is like one of my favorite things in the world. 850 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:01,840 Speaker 3: Oh, that's so cool. 851 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you read an article about scientists talking about 852 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 2: gay animals, they're like, well, actually, competition is only one 853 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 2: part of evolutionary biology. And actually this old evolutionary biologist, 854 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 2: Peter Kropotkin, better known for his other works, you know, 855 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 2: developed the concept of mutual aid as a factor in evolution. 856 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,919 Speaker 2: He wrote a book called Mutual Aida, Factor and Evolution, which, 857 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 2: by the way, he got a lot of those ideas 858 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 2: by studying the natural world and then also studying and 859 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 2: working with and living with indigenous populations in eastern Siberia. 860 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 2: But anyway, Pawkins, he's a little bit like he's not 861 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 2: afraid to afraid to throw down. He's not a pacifist, 862 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,840 Speaker 2: but he's way more like, let's change culture, let's do 863 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 2: things a little bit more equally, whereas like Bakunin's like 864 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 2: the destructive urge is also creative urge and whatever. Kroppawkin's 865 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 2: heyday is over at this point because he's old now 866 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,279 Speaker 2: and he's not so involved, and he's in exile. He's 867 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 2: living I think in England most of this time, although 868 00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:58,760 Speaker 2: maybe I think. 869 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 3: This is after like a prison break and stuff. So 870 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 3: it's not like he said nextile because he wasn't doing anything. 871 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 3: It's just that he can't go back to Russia because 872 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 3: he's no. 873 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 2: That's actually a really good point. A lot of people 874 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 2: are gonna be like self imposed exile. This man like 875 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:16,359 Speaker 2: circumnavigated the world, yeah, after breaking out of prison. So 876 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 2: despite anarchism as a theory largely being shaped by these 877 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 2: Russian guys, anarchism is not a prevalent force in nineteenth 878 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 2: century Russia. The nihilist absolutely rubbed elbows with Bakunin, but 879 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,839 Speaker 2: they were at the end of the day BOMBCRAI social democrats, 880 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 2: the Nerodnicks took some inspiration from I believe Bacun and 881 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 2: ankor Pockin. I've like, I'm a little confused on this 882 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,839 Speaker 2: because I've did most of that research about a year 883 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 2: and a half ago. But they too were fighting by 884 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,319 Speaker 2: and large for something that looks a little bit more 885 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:49,479 Speaker 2: like a representational democracy or social socialist democracy. Kripakin built 886 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 2: a ton of the ideas of modern anarchism and mutual 887 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 2: aid by hanging out with and observing indigenous communities in Siberia. 888 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 2: Like I was saying, he also did a lot of 889 00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 2: work to help it communities escape persecution by the Zar 890 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 2: and like help entire communities like find new homes in 891 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 2: Canada and stuff, which is cool. I know it is 892 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,560 Speaker 2: a little bit trading on colonization in colonialism, but it's 893 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 2: it's still helping a group of people who are being 894 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,359 Speaker 2: persecuted get away as good, you know. 895 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and like I mean as bad as the Canadian 896 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,240 Speaker 3: government is, and like I am a famous Canada hater. Okay, okay, 897 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 3: the tzar is Russia was a worse place to be 898 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 3: than Canada. Even though Canada's cloud history is appalling, Czar's 899 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,919 Speaker 3: colonialism is something else. 900 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. He saved a ton of people's lives by 901 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,359 Speaker 2: being like he wasn't just like an anthropological observer being like, oh, 902 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,759 Speaker 2: you have this interesting mutual aid community. He was like, 903 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,879 Speaker 2: y'all need to get out, Like we, uh, we kind 904 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 2: of we kind of cribbed most of our notes from 905 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 2: our ideology by watching you, we can help you get out. 906 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 2: And a lot of communism is built out of the 907 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,840 Speaker 2: communes that surf sometimes lived on. Also, right, so a 908 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 2: lot of Okay, I'm I'm working on this theory. I 909 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 2: think anark in Russia is a bit like anarchism in 910 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 2: Ireland and Mexico and other colonized spaces. It's less of 911 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,799 Speaker 2: something that was imported to the region and more of 912 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 2: something that people took inspiration from indigenous lifeways there sort 913 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 2: of ex anarchic ideas were exported to the anarchists and 914 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:22,160 Speaker 2: then kind of re imported back again. And I've seen 915 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,880 Speaker 2: this cycle happen with Siberia, Ireland, and Mexico, like I 916 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,399 Speaker 2: was saying, and it's just come up on these shows. 917 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,799 Speaker 2: On the show specifically as I do this research, and 918 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 2: I think it's happened a bunch of other places too. 919 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 2: But there were absolutely a bunch of specific nineteenth century 920 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,319 Speaker 2: anarchists in Russia. And as you successfully called, and you 921 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:41,880 Speaker 2: were the only person I could have had as a 922 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 2: guest who would have called this, they were Christian pacifists. 923 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 3: James might have been able to do it. James, James 924 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,440 Speaker 3: anarchism nowhere it was James is my co host, James 925 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 3: stout the co hosts. 926 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,279 Speaker 2: That's true, that's true. James would have had a chance. 927 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:56,880 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had a chance. I would have just 928 00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 2: assumed there's a ton of anarchists among the nihilists, and 929 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 2: shit know better, weren't. This Christian quietism predates Leo Tolstoy, 930 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,080 Speaker 2: so it also pre dates being called anarchism, and it 931 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 2: really hits his stride with Tolstoy and is more objectively 932 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 2: interconnected with anarchisms at this point. The War and Peace 933 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,959 Speaker 2: guys who were talking about Leo Tolstoy, it is hard 934 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,440 Speaker 2: to overstate how influential he was while he was alive. 935 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 2: These days, I know very few people who have actually 936 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 2: successfully read any of his books. 937 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,799 Speaker 3: They're really long. They are really long. 938 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,080 Speaker 1: And just read The Death of Ivan Lili, which it's 939 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:38,920 Speaker 1: like a little novella. Get your slight Tolstoy piled it's 940 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,000 Speaker 1: really depressing though. 941 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:42,320 Speaker 2: Russian literature. 942 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:48,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, huh, imagine that. What are concept? But it's just 943 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,440 Speaker 1: that was like the first thing I read for by Tolstoy. 944 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:52,360 Speaker 1: It was a little novella. 945 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 2: Okay, Now I've read some of his short stories. Maybe 946 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 2: I read a short story that I watched a movie 947 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,320 Speaker 2: based on about a deserter from the army, but I 948 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:04,399 Speaker 2: don't remember a name of it. 949 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 3: And unfortunately I'm an enormous nerd. And so the first 950 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 3: Tolstoy thing that I read that was The Kingdom of 951 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,760 Speaker 3: God Is Within You, which is like anarchist book. 952 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: Oh and I've just looked it up and it looks 953 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,399 Speaker 1: like there's a free pedia version of it online from 954 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:23,840 Speaker 1: Stanford University, so hell yeah, I can read it for free. 955 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,840 Speaker 2: Tolstoy, We're still not covering him in detail, but he 956 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,480 Speaker 2: has woven his way like Quakers, and. 957 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,720 Speaker 1: He's not quite tuberculosis, but he does come out often. 958 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't worry, I'm going to tie the industrial 959 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 2: workers of the world in later I'm sure you are. Yeah, no, 960 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 2: i am, it's in the script. 961 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 962 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,279 Speaker 1: First, more context. 963 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Tolstoy never set out to lead anything, but 964 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,720 Speaker 2: people followed his teachings anyhow, and his teachings were basically, 965 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,719 Speaker 2: violence is bad, the state is bad, private ownership of 966 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,439 Speaker 2: capital goods is bad. Christianity is good. Anarchism is good 967 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 2: except when it's violent, which it is way too often. 968 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:08,280 Speaker 2: So a ton of people refused conscription, refused to pay taxes, 969 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,160 Speaker 2: refuse to take any oaths, and like set up communes 970 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:18,239 Speaker 2: and vibed and that's cool. Yeah, vibes is good. Good 971 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,160 Speaker 2: for them. But the Russian anarchists, as we know and 972 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,799 Speaker 2: love them today, the anarcho communists and anarcho syndicalists and 973 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:32,320 Speaker 2: anarcho we don't have another adjective here, honestly, terrorists. The 974 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,439 Speaker 2: anarcho terrorists, I think this be the thing they most 975 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,440 Speaker 2: likely call themselves as a third group. They start at 976 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 2: the same time as all these other revolutionary groups, right 977 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 2: the fuck near the turn of the century. They never 978 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 2: form a political party per se, but they will maintain 979 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,799 Speaker 2: ideological infraternal relations with each other and or disagree and 980 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 2: talk shit on each other, and even be like, oh, 981 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 2: that group's too violent, they say, while they're like building 982 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,399 Speaker 2: a bomb to go blow up somebody like. But all 983 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 2: of the groups do that. All of the groups. The 984 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,640 Speaker 2: anarchists are not unique and they're like murdering people at 985 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 2: this stage. To be clear, they are, unsurprisingly a bunch 986 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,040 Speaker 2: of different groups and a bunch of different ideas. Most 987 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,040 Speaker 2: of them come out of Western Russia parts that are 988 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,840 Speaker 2: no longer Russia, especially Poland and Ukraine specifically, and not coincidentally, 989 00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,719 Speaker 2: they come out of the Pale of Settlement because in 990 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,920 Speaker 2: Russia it was only legal to be a Jew in 991 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,959 Speaker 2: certain parts of Western Russia, a place called the Pale 992 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,759 Speaker 2: of Settlement. I had always assume that this is where 993 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 2: the phrase beyond the Pale comes from, but it's not. 994 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,759 Speaker 2: Beyond the Pale comes from a different pale, which was 995 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,560 Speaker 2: this area of eastern Ireland around Dublin that had been 996 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 2: properly colonized by the British. So beyond the Pale meant 997 00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,120 Speaker 2: the barbarian lands of the Celts. 998 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,759 Speaker 3: I need to start using that differently now that I 999 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,560 Speaker 3: know that. It's like, oh, this is the cool part. 1000 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:53,160 Speaker 2: I know, right exactly. So anyway, you can't overstate how 1001 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,880 Speaker 2: influential Jewish anarchism was, not to just anarchism, but the 1002 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 2: broader labor movement. A ton of Jewish labor booned fock 1003 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,919 Speaker 2: folks wind up anarchists, though plenty of them stay social 1004 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,040 Speaker 2: democrats and are the enemies of the anarchists, and another 1005 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,399 Speaker 2: one stays social democrats and work with the anarchists. And 1006 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,759 Speaker 2: it's almost like you can't take a ethnic group and 1007 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 2: say anything particular about their characters. 1008 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, who could have guessed? 1009 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,880 Speaker 2: And what I find cool about this like export and 1010 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 2: then import thing. One of the main ways that anarchism 1011 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,239 Speaker 2: is reintroduced to Russia is Yiddish language newspapers coming out 1012 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,200 Speaker 2: of London, which also means that they were inspired by 1013 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 2: Ireland because it was the London anarchists who were picking 1014 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,400 Speaker 2: up on Irish ways of resisting landlordism and all that shit. 1015 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,200 Speaker 2: I love how interconnected. 1016 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 3: All this is. 1017 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so they're like and they're also like specifically 1018 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 2: passing out things being like remember the Chicago Haymarket martyrs 1019 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,160 Speaker 2: in Ukraine and Poland nineteen o four. 1020 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,640 Speaker 3: You know it's really incredible. Yeah, I mean there is 1021 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,680 Speaker 3: this joke about how like everyone everyone in other countries 1022 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 3: knows about American political prisoners and American politic Americans don't. Yeah, 1023 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 3: And it's like, this is to be fair, people in 1024 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 3: the US did know about Haywark it, but yes, not 1025 00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:10,920 Speaker 3: self spread like there were there were, I mean there 1026 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 3: were riots like in Japan over it. Like it's stagnant. 1027 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,560 Speaker 2: I would argue from some level of knowledge, but not 1028 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,479 Speaker 2: complete knowledge. The thing that I think about is about 1029 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 2: how anarchists at the turn of the century, when they 1030 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 2: didn't have fucking they had telegraphs, I guess, but they 1031 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:36,479 Speaker 2: didn't have fucking Twitter or email or reliable post. We're 1032 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,880 Speaker 2: having conversations about things happening all over the world, Yeah, 1033 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,920 Speaker 2: and including American anarchists knew about all the stuff happening 1034 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,439 Speaker 2: in Japan. You will hear about American anarchists talking about 1035 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,520 Speaker 2: Japanese anarchists and like fighting for them at the beginning 1036 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,160 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century, right, and you don't even see 1037 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 2: that as much anymore. And it's embarrassing because like now 1038 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,880 Speaker 2: we have like we fucking Google trands right now. You know. 1039 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 2: I think that one of the reasons for this is 1040 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:08,440 Speaker 2: that anarchism in the United States wasn't really American. It 1041 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:14,919 Speaker 2: wasn't primarily English speaking, and it was an immigrant ideology, 1042 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 2: you know. 1043 00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,120 Speaker 3: That's like so it was also I mean, like one 1044 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 3: of the things I remember researching stuff on Japanese anarchism 1045 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,240 Speaker 3: was so Japanese anarchism in like the twenties has to 1046 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 3: split between the syndy clus and the narco communists. And 1047 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,640 Speaker 3: Rudolph the Rocker, who is like this really kind of famous, 1048 00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,480 Speaker 3: well not that famous, but he's like a he's an 1049 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 3: anarchist organizer in Germany, is like writing them letters being 1050 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 3: like please don't split. And I can't explain that purely 1051 00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,400 Speaker 3: by the sort of life Totally. I think that they 1052 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 3: were just actually better at. 1053 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,919 Speaker 2: Being international comrades back then, and I think that that's 1054 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:51,920 Speaker 2: a thing that we need to come back to, you know. 1055 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think another part of it was also just 1056 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,680 Speaker 3: people would go to play. Like a lot of Japanese 1057 00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,720 Speaker 3: anarchism came from people going to Paris, yeah, and meeting 1058 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:02,720 Speaker 3: a bunch of anarchists in Paris and then coming back 1059 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 3: totally we. 1060 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, no, totally, especially American anarchists. 1061 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, like those kind of like communication lines don't really 1062 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:15,480 Speaker 3: happen anymore, and. 1063 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 2: It's really bad, although part of that was because we 1064 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:25,200 Speaker 2: used to get exiled constantly. That's true, But you know, 1065 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,640 Speaker 2: isn't this an election year or anything could happen. So 1066 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 2: you've got an arco communist and narcos syniclists. We're fighting 1067 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,160 Speaker 2: for a fairly orderly society, and they're overall focused on 1068 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 2: labor organizing. And then you've got Black Banner and other 1069 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 2: anarchists that called anti intellectual anarchists or sometimes anarcho terrorists. 1070 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 2: And when I say that they're anti intellectual, like, I 1071 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,400 Speaker 2: was reading this whole essay about anarchism anti intellectualism, and 1072 00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:59,480 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm really sad that they're anti intellectual it. 1073 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,200 Speaker 2: You know how every word just means something completely different 1074 01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 2: depending on the context. Yep, yep, this is one of 1075 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,600 Speaker 2: them words. Great, they are not like we don't like books, 1076 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,960 Speaker 2: that they're bad burned, the books kill all the intelligentsia. 1077 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:13,000 Speaker 4: Uh. 1078 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,760 Speaker 2: Mostly it's that they are action focused rather than theory focused, 1079 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,120 Speaker 2: and they are opposed to having an intellectual class, and 1080 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,520 Speaker 2: they believe that education should be broad and that every 1081 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,040 Speaker 2: peasant and the workers can become politically educated. And considering 1082 01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,160 Speaker 2: around this time, one of the splits is going to 1083 01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,320 Speaker 2: happen with Lenin and the Bolsheviks, actually I think versus 1084 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,880 Speaker 2: the Mensheviks, but not entirely certain is that Lenin is 1085 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 2: going to be like no, no, no, fuck popular education. 1086 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 2: We need to just have the intelligentsia leaders. We need 1087 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:43,920 Speaker 2: the smart vanguard. Everyone else could be a bunch of 1088 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:44,520 Speaker 2: dum dumbs. 1089 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And like Lenin's hole, the working class needs to 1090 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,840 Speaker 3: be led by middle class like coffee shop Dipshits has 1091 01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:56,560 Speaker 3: had unfathomably terrible all the most annoying people you've ever met. 1092 01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,880 Speaker 3: Like that. That's the reason why like this. 1093 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:09,560 Speaker 2: And so Chernoe, Zanamia Black Banner, they are fighting against that. 1094 01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,440 Speaker 2: They are working class intellectuals in as much as their 1095 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,360 Speaker 2: intellectuals at all. But actually they do spend half their 1096 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:18,360 Speaker 2: time talking about theory. So like whatever they started in 1097 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,960 Speaker 2: what's now Poland in nineteen oh three, mostly by Jewish anarchists, 1098 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:26,280 Speaker 2: but they were not a Jewish organization, and they had 1099 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 2: a theory. The theory was, we are currently being oppressed, 1100 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,080 Speaker 2: but people who are dead can't oppress us, So what 1101 01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,840 Speaker 2: if we just kill the people who are oppressing us? 1102 01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,560 Speaker 2: And they set out to do it. They referred to 1103 01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,920 Speaker 2: themselves as terrorists, and they even referred to what they 1104 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,680 Speaker 2: were doing as motiveless terror. And yet for all of that, 1105 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 2: they were fairly restrained, although I have read two very 1106 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,480 Speaker 2: different takes on this, both from an anarchist position. But 1107 01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,960 Speaker 2: they weren't just like wilding out on everyone. When they 1108 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,760 Speaker 2: robbed the rich, they didn't kill unless the person didn't 1109 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,240 Speaker 2: give them their money. And when they they interfered with 1110 01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,640 Speaker 2: strikes by stabbing strike breaking bosses to death, they only 1111 01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,000 Speaker 2: did so when all other means had been exhausted. And 1112 01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,560 Speaker 2: they did it because the striking workers would come to 1113 01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:20,040 Speaker 2: them and be like, hey, our strike isn't working. Could 1114 01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,480 Speaker 2: you do a little like well stabby, Yeah, just like 1115 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,240 Speaker 2: extra blood in the scene. It might help, you know. 1116 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:31,160 Speaker 2: And so they they considered themselves working very closely with 1117 01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,439 Speaker 2: the people. That's more the primary source version like that's 1118 01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,440 Speaker 2: from a guy who was in it, whereas like a 1119 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,040 Speaker 2: later historian was a little bit like, oh, they were 1120 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:44,840 Speaker 2: a little bit more marginal than I don't know. But 1121 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,960 Speaker 2: they also raided gun shops and barracks for arms, They 1122 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:52,840 Speaker 2: bombed police stations, and they just did all kinds of shit. 1123 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:54,919 Speaker 2: They and the strikes and the movement at the time 1124 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,400 Speaker 2: that they represented included everyone from the nit yarkas, which 1125 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,000 Speaker 2: are the lowest of the workers, the female textile workers, 1126 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,880 Speaker 2: to students and even some soldiers. And there's also this 1127 01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,280 Speaker 2: thing that happens, and I read mostly anarchist history, so 1128 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,760 Speaker 2: I have a bias here that could be tying into this. 1129 01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:13,360 Speaker 2: I read about a ton of women in these groups, 1130 01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,680 Speaker 2: like about a third of the names of the people 1131 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,680 Speaker 2: that I would read who would be like and then 1132 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:22,640 Speaker 2: this person blew up that person or whatever. Are women 1133 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,840 Speaker 2: doing those actions? And I don't see that as much 1134 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 2: in the other ideologies. However, I have not studied the 1135 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:33,680 Speaker 2: other ideological factions as closely, so it is possible that 1136 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 2: I am biasing anarchistics feminism. 1137 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:40,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's because I think I think part 1138 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,640 Speaker 3: of what was going on is, like, if I'm remembering correctly, 1139 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:48,320 Speaker 3: I think a lot of these organizations have like their 1140 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,680 Speaker 3: own women's groups that are like another thing, okay, And 1141 01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,560 Speaker 3: that's part of why the uh the February Revolution nineteen 1142 01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,360 Speaker 3: seventeen goes the way it does, because the feminist groups 1143 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,680 Speaker 3: are like, we're doing the revolution and all of the 1144 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,520 Speaker 3: doble groups are like bad day, eh, too early. 1145 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:13,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to get to the nineteen seventeen stuff. 1146 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,800 Speaker 2: Even before the Revolution of nineteen oh five, which we'll 1147 01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:23,560 Speaker 2: get too soon, Black Banner was at war with the state. However, 1148 01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,120 Speaker 2: they were like way more marginal before nineteen oh five 1149 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,000 Speaker 2: that they become way bigger of a deal during nineteen 1150 01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,000 Speaker 2: oh five. And they're all based out of Bali Stock 1151 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:36,160 Speaker 2: in Poland, which turned into something. Well, they started there. 1152 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,160 Speaker 2: They actually spread great deal, but they start in Bali 1153 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,200 Speaker 2: Stock turned into something of a war zone in nineteen 1154 01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,160 Speaker 2: oh four with fighting between the people, the anarchists and 1155 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:49,480 Speaker 2: the Tsars forces the police. Other anarchist groups are doing 1156 01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,560 Speaker 2: this kind of shit too, and I believe that other 1157 01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 2: revolutionary groups are too. Every history book that I found 1158 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,440 Speaker 2: is written by more or less a partisan of one 1159 01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,480 Speaker 2: of these leftist groups of the h and so they're 1160 01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:04,560 Speaker 2: always like the Sars did everything, the anarchist did everything, 1161 01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,200 Speaker 2: No one did anything till the Bolsheviks did it or whatever, 1162 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,320 Speaker 2: you know. But Black Banner was a really big deal, 1163 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,440 Speaker 2: and soon it spread to the countryside and to other 1164 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:18,680 Speaker 2: cities and regions. Each fighting group was largely autonomous their 1165 01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,480 Speaker 2: newspaper because yeah, of course they had a newspaper had 1166 01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,800 Speaker 2: a masthead, and the masthead had was a quote from 1167 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:30,120 Speaker 2: Gerta in the beginning there was the deed. And I 1168 01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,160 Speaker 2: don't know enough about Gerta to say how that really 1169 01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:38,160 Speaker 2: ties me. Neither old dead guy German. One of the 1170 01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 2: main sources we have about this group, Black Banner, is 1171 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,720 Speaker 2: this guy who probably was never himself in a fighting group, 1172 01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:47,760 Speaker 2: was instead one of their chief propagandists and sort of ideologues. 1173 01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,280 Speaker 2: At least according to himself, he was one of their 1174 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:51,160 Speaker 2: chief ideologues. 1175 01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:51,840 Speaker 3: Wow. 1176 01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,080 Speaker 2: According to someone else he never threw down, but I 1177 01:05:55,120 --> 01:06:01,040 Speaker 2: don't know. And his name is Ayuda Grossmann Rosan. And 1178 01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 2: the problem with him as a source. The other problem 1179 01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:08,120 Speaker 2: with the fucking Russian Revolution, yeah, is that when the 1180 01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:12,480 Speaker 2: Bolsheviks take charge, they literally write all the history and 1181 01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:18,240 Speaker 2: rewrite all the history. And so this man becomes a Bolshevik, 1182 01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,840 Speaker 2: and so nineteen twenty four he writes about the thing 1183 01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,280 Speaker 2: that I read about Black Banner. The longest thing I 1184 01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,600 Speaker 2: read about Black Banner was from him, and was written 1185 01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:29,960 Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty four, after he become a Bolshevik. But 1186 01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,480 Speaker 2: half of the document is him saying, I swear I'm 1187 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,120 Speaker 2: a loyal Bolshevik. Please don't kill me for having ever 1188 01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,720 Speaker 2: been an anarchist. I swear I know that Bolshevism is 1189 01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,080 Speaker 2: the one true way, and I swear I know that 1190 01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:47,480 Speaker 2: anarchism is bad. It is literally pages and pages of disclaimer. 1191 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,160 Speaker 2: Before then he talks about how fucking cool Black Banner was, 1192 01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:54,920 Speaker 2: and so my reading behind it between the lines is 1193 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,960 Speaker 2: that he was a man who didn't want to die, 1194 01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:02,560 Speaker 2: so he joined the Bolsheviks at some point, literally just 1195 01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,080 Speaker 2: out of not to not die, I suppose, is a 1196 01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:11,200 Speaker 2: kind of exile. He wrote about Black Banner groups sprang 1197 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,480 Speaker 2: up like mushrooms after a raign in cities, villages, and hamlets. 1198 01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,520 Speaker 2: The alley stock was the organizational center, the heart of 1199 01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,040 Speaker 2: the whole movement. The groups preserved complete autonomy, but delegates 1200 01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,680 Speaker 2: were always turning up for directive of an ideological or 1201 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:29,720 Speaker 2: tactical character. Another anarchist group over in Ukraine called itself 1202 01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,200 Speaker 2: the Union of Poor Peasants, which is a cool fucking name. 1203 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1204 01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:36,640 Speaker 2: Most famous among their members is a guy who's going 1205 01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 2: to become important of the story soon, a young Ukrainian 1206 01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,760 Speaker 2: anarchist named Nestor makno Hey. During this time, he goes 1207 01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,080 Speaker 2: to jail for killing a cop. And another sick name 1208 01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,920 Speaker 2: of one of these groups is the Union of the Unreconcilable, 1209 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:51,880 Speaker 2: which is so sick. 1210 01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:53,520 Speaker 3: Why have we never done that one again? 1211 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,080 Speaker 2: Well, in order to live up to them, you'd have 1212 01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:58,640 Speaker 2: to assassinate an interior minister. 1213 01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:03,280 Speaker 3: You know. Look, we could do like andorra or something. 1214 01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,840 Speaker 3: There's gotta be like, there's gotta be places you can 1215 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:06,240 Speaker 3: do this. 1216 01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. 1217 01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,040 Speaker 3: Did they meet someone kill wanting Blivia? What point? 1218 01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:13,440 Speaker 1: You know? 1219 01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:21,120 Speaker 2: These things happen. Meanwhile, other anarchists, especially the anarcho syndicalists 1220 01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,040 Speaker 2: you'll be shocked to know, are decrying the terrorism, and 1221 01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 2: a lot of the anarcho and so like the anarcho 1222 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,439 Speaker 2: terrorists are like, we hate the Kropaccinites, and the Kropacinites like, 1223 01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,559 Speaker 2: we hate the anarcho terrorists, and they actually and so 1224 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,599 Speaker 2: I read all this stuff about them fighting, but then 1225 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:36,920 Speaker 2: I read first person sources and then they were like, oh, yeah, 1226 01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:38,719 Speaker 2: we're all hanging out at the graveyard and my friend, 1227 01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:43,320 Speaker 2: the anarcho Kropaccainite was there, and I'm like, I think 1228 01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:45,760 Speaker 2: people try to present the anarchists the Russian Revolution is 1229 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,040 Speaker 2: a little bit more fractured than they were, but I'm 1230 01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:53,760 Speaker 2: not certain. I think it's like both are true, is 1231 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:54,639 Speaker 2: the best I can tell. 1232 01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean something like I've ran into in 1233 01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,360 Speaker 3: like like modern anarchist spaces is like you get like 1234 01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,759 Speaker 3: warring clicks, but then people are just friends with people 1235 01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,240 Speaker 3: in both clothes and totally you know. 1236 01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:08,720 Speaker 2: Ah, you know, so it says it takunis and you're like, 1237 01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:13,000 Speaker 2: we're still at the same party. Yeah. And so what 1238 01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,880 Speaker 2: the Kropacanist anarchists are doing is that they're going to 1239 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,439 Speaker 2: the people again neronneck style, and they have pamphlets with 1240 01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:24,479 Speaker 2: titles like how the Peasants will Succeed without Authority, which 1241 01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:29,160 Speaker 2: is kind of cool based. Yeah, and it's I mean, 1242 01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:31,880 Speaker 2: you know, and the pamphlet is like, well, you kind 1243 01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:33,559 Speaker 2: of just keep doing what you're doing, only now there's 1244 01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:39,000 Speaker 2: not a noble you know. But what there is is 1245 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:42,920 Speaker 2: no more script in part one because we didn't get 1246 01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,320 Speaker 2: to the Russian Revolution of nineteen oh five, because that's 1247 01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 2: part two. But when we come back, all of these 1248 01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,920 Speaker 2: groups they're all set up and everything's in crisis and 1249 01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,479 Speaker 2: what's going to happen? And after you all patiently listen 1250 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,280 Speaker 2: to the Menshevik versus Bolshevik and the Narco terrorist versus 1251 01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:05,120 Speaker 2: kroppacinist out there's going to be a revolution. But in 1252 01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 2: the meantime, if people want to hear you talk about stuff, 1253 01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:10,600 Speaker 2: where can they do that? 1254 01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:12,320 Speaker 4: Yeah? 1255 01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,840 Speaker 3: The podcast, it could happen here wherever fine podcasts are distributed. 1256 01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:22,799 Speaker 3: And I guess I'm at it mechr three on Twitter, 1257 01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:25,519 Speaker 3: but I'm like trying to not be on there right now. 1258 01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,479 Speaker 3: So yeah, don't go back there, terrible place zero. 1259 01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,479 Speaker 2: What if you get a blue check without permit without 1260 01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:34,759 Speaker 2: asking why you're gone? 1261 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:36,920 Speaker 3: Oh? I saw that. 1262 01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:41,800 Speaker 2: Why it's so aggroggressive? I know, it's like I swear 1263 01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,880 Speaker 2: these people like me, much like how Lennon tried to 1264 01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:49,160 Speaker 2: get Krapacin to pretend to be friends with them. 1265 01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,439 Speaker 3: Great, it's very funny. 1266 01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:57,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, listen to it could happen here. Listen 1267 01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:01,679 Speaker 2: to cool people did cool stuff next Wednesday, and also 1268 01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:06,719 Speaker 2: follow me on substack at Margaret Kiljoy dot substack dot com. 1269 01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,920 Speaker 2: And I guess you can also follow me on Twitter 1270 01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:12,840 Speaker 2: at Magpie Kiljoy or Instagram at Margaret Kiljoy. Oh, and 1271 01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:14,479 Speaker 2: I got to announce my new book. I have a 1272 01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:17,360 Speaker 2: book coming out on September twenty fourth, called The Sapling 1273 01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:21,040 Speaker 2: Cage and is a trans which ya book. 1274 01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:21,600 Speaker 1: It is. 1275 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 2: I got to write high fantasy about a girl who 1276 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,400 Speaker 2: doesn't quite isn't quite sure that she's a girl. She 1277 01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:29,040 Speaker 2: was born a boy, but she really wants to be 1278 01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:30,760 Speaker 2: a witch, and so she dresses up as a girl 1279 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,360 Speaker 2: and goes and joins the witches and in the meantime 1280 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:38,280 Speaker 2: saves the enclosure of the Commons. But magical because I 1281 01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,719 Speaker 2: wrote it. It doesn't say enclosure in the Commons anywhere 1282 01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:42,120 Speaker 2: in it. And you do not need to care about 1283 01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:45,080 Speaker 2: Bolsheviks versus Mensheviks to read it. And it's coming out 1284 01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,000 Speaker 2: from Feminist Press September twenty fourth. It'll be up for 1285 01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,360 Speaker 2: pre orders probably in June. I will be talking about 1286 01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,639 Speaker 2: it a bunch because I'm very excited about it. And 1287 01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:54,400 Speaker 2: what else Sophia guys think to plug? 1288 01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,560 Speaker 1: I'll plug a show that's coming out on cles and 1289 01:11:58,600 --> 01:11:59,840 Speaker 1: Media in May. 1290 01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:01,160 Speaker 2: It's a sixteenth minute. 1291 01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,280 Speaker 1: It's sixteenth minute hosted by Jimmy Lostis. It is a 1292 01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:10,520 Speaker 1: show that looks into the Internet's weirdest and greatest characters 1293 01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:14,680 Speaker 1: and it's a weekly podcast and I'm very excited about it. 1294 01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,479 Speaker 2: It's all about Elon Musk and how much Jamie loves 1295 01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:22,320 Speaker 2: I can't even know. Yeah, no, that's too mean. It's 1296 01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,839 Speaker 2: one thing that there's the been the bit of claiming 1297 01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,479 Speaker 2: that Jamie Loft has killed a man, and that's fine, 1298 01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,840 Speaker 2: but liking Elon Musk is a little bit low. I'm 1299 01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:32,839 Speaker 2: excited for that podcast. 1300 01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:33,920 Speaker 1: It'd be so good. 1301 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,160 Speaker 2: See you all on Wednesday bybe. 1302 01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,120 Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 1303 01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:48,280 Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, 1304 01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:51,679 Speaker 4: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out 1305 01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:52,840 Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio 1306 01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:56,360 Speaker 1: App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.