1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Robert doing the grunge so we can start the badcast. Um, 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: I think we should just start the podcast with you 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: asking Robert, do you want to grunt? So we can 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: start the podcast. Um that that seems avant garde. I 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm on guard means, but this is 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: it could happen here, a podcast about how things are 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: falling apart and how maybe maybe they don't always need 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: to be falling apart, maybe we could do better. Uh. 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: Speaking of doing better, you know one thing that sometimes 10 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: helps us do better getting getting in the face of 11 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: people fucking shut up and being like, hey, that's not 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: that's not cool. Don't be doing that, Garrison, that's your leading. 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Take it from here. Yeah, Hi, so we I've been 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: I've been trying to keep better a better job of 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: like following ecological defense movements happening both in the States 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: and in other countries. I know there was there was 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: a big one up in Canada recently. There was a 18 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: huge one in Germany too, just the other day. Yeah, 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: I know the one, the one in Canada. There's a 20 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: uh the uh, I forget, I forget what the actual 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: indigenous group is called. Um, maybe maybe someone else So 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: the the um house no sauti um yeah, the people 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: who who who took back their land and blocked the 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: road off and now the to and the wet suit end. 25 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. Um there we go, yeah, 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: basically taking their land back, blocking off the road. And 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: now our samep is getting called in and we'll see 28 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: how that develops. And in Guatemala there's protests against Canadian 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: mining um in Maya indigenous community that have have have 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: gotten pretty heavily militarized at this point. There's fun, there's 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff. Lot 32 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: of stuff on the psychological defense side of things, UM 33 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: include including in you know, the Pacific northwest here with 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: all of with all of the forests and and as 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: such in this area and part of this kind of 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: exploration into into ecological defense, I wanted to talk with 37 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: some people who are a little a little bit more 38 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: well versed uh in this type of thing than I am. 39 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: So I've there's the two people have agreed to talk 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: with us, um salmon cat, both people who work who 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: work on the kind of thing from like an activism standpoint, U, yeah, 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: say hi, hello, hey y'all. So very very thankful that 43 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: they are going to be talking with us today, So 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: I thought we could we could probably just start by 45 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: kind of discussing what forest defense is and how it 46 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: kind of has a history specifically in this area, but 47 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: but kind of more broadly, Like if if people listened 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: to the Earth First episodes, you know, that kind of 49 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: that covered like anti pipeline stuff, but we didn't really 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: get much into like forest if ends and you know, 51 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: like the traditional like tree sits and that kind of thing. Um. So, 52 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: so yeah, what's what's up with defending the forest? What's 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: what's what's going on with that? Um? Yeah, thanks for 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: that great intro. UM. I mean, forest defense is I 55 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: think probably the most characteristic um type of direct action 56 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: in this bioregion. And here we're talking from Cascadia right now. 57 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: I actually moved out here from the East Coast ten 58 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: years ago specifically to get involved with forest defense because 59 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: this place has an incredibly rich history UM of people 60 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: basically just throwing down, risking life and limb to stop 61 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: Jane Saws from taking down some of the oldest and 62 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: most special forests out here. UM. And so I'd say, 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, for forest defense, direct action is in a 64 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: lot of ways rooted right here, UM, in this bioregion. 65 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: And obviously, UM, like all kinds of movements, things have 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: changed over the course of time. UM back in the eighties. UM, 67 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: when in seventies, when forest defense was really really kicking 68 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: up and stopping all growth logging specifically out here, when 69 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: it was kind of like rampant old growth, UM, clear cutting. Um, 70 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: it really took the shape of trying to focusing on ecology, 71 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: focusing on the integrity of these ecosystems, and basically like 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: doing everything possible to stop the chainsaws. And UM. Now 73 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 1: obviously a lot has changed. We have the Northwest Forest 74 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: Plan and some policies which are doing better to kind 75 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: of like protect old places and old forests. But at 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: the same time, the same ship is happening. Um. You know, 77 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the timber industry is great at using euphemisms to kind 78 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: of cover up it's clear cutting anyways, and finding policy 79 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: loopholes to target some incredible places. And now I think, UM, 80 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: where we're at with like the direct action movement is 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: we're in the context of climate change, so we're not 82 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: just defending forests for the stake of these like incredible 83 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: ecological strongholds, but we're also defending them because we recognize 84 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: that forest defense is climate defense. This is a like 85 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: environmental justice issue, it's a human issue, it's a community issue. 86 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: And so now direct action, I think is um, you know, 87 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: happening not just the name of our forests, but in 88 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: the name of our communities in our future. UM. That 89 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: it's just as rich um now as it has ever been, 90 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: and especially right now and especially since which I know 91 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: we'll get into. People have been throwing down all over 92 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: this fire region to protect what's left of our forests. Yeah, 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: and I think it's it's good to get into kind 94 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: of why how the fires have impacted this because one 95 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: of the shady things that has been done is we 96 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: had I think most people in the country are where 97 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: Oregon had unprecedented wildfires this year, and we had unprecedented 98 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: wildfires last year, and we're going to have unprecedented wildfires 99 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: every year for a while. UM. And whenever these fires 100 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: run through, they don't like destroy every tree in their wake, 101 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: but they char them. And logging companies then come in 102 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: under the guise of like, well, we have to make 103 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: this area safe so that like the fires don't burn 104 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: here next year, so we've got to cut down all 105 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: of these trees uh um and and clear cut this 106 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: part of area of public forests. So like, as you're 107 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: driving around in forests that you used to be able 108 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: to do stuff, and you'll find areas that are just 109 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: like blocked off because mining companies are coming or logging 110 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: companies are coming through and clear cutting all of these 111 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: trees that could very easily recover from the fire um 112 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: or that weren't even burned by it. But we're just 113 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: like in this area that they said, Okay, well we 114 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: have to clear this out in order to make it safe. 115 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: And it's kind of this way to like back door 116 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: and the guise of fire protection like expand logging. Yeah, 117 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: and just to add to that to the logging companies 118 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: love to say that the reasons we have increased wildfires 119 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: because there's an overgrowth in the forest because of the 120 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: Northwest Forest plant, because there's more protections for the forest. 121 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: Fires are happening worse because we're not getting there bogging 122 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: the forest and removing all the fuel. M hm. So 123 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: you have like this two part thing that like Kat 124 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: just mentioned, where like on the one hand, companies are like, 125 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: we need to log more to prevent wildfire, which is bullshit, 126 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: and we can talk about why. On the other hand, 127 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: after fire has burned through an area, they're like, we 128 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: need to log because we need to help the forest 129 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: recover ecologically. Also, we need to salvage all of the 130 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: timber before it rots and goes bad, and like all 131 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: of these reasons and so basically it's just like fire 132 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: has become the excuse to just like log preemptively and 133 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: log after the fact. And yeah, it's a total total 134 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: ship show. Yeah, I mean the think this this kind 135 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: of falls into capitalists trying to use climate change is 136 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: just another way to find things to extract and things 137 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: to grow on. Right, it's they're they're going to try 138 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: to find their own way to sneak in when all 139 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: of this you know, ecological disaster is happening to you know, 140 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: sell you whatever green safe product is going to help 141 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: against the collapse, or you know, package things in a 142 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: way that makes it seem like it's solving this you 143 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: know problem, but it's actually it's part of it's part 144 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: of the satan thing from the yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, right, 145 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: it's it's you see that's in every single industry and 146 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: it's always it's it's going to be like this because 147 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: this is the only way that capitalism knows how to 148 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: address this issue is by just turning it into another 149 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: turning it into another thing to consume and another thing 150 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: to sell in package. Pretty pretty grib Yeah. And there's 151 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: I mean, there's cascading effects too, because they cut down 152 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: these trees under the guise of making it safe for 153 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: the next fire season, but which also makes a big 154 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: chunk of land a lot more vulnerable to like mud 155 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: slides and the torrential raining that we're having right now. Um, 156 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: and it's also going to get more common, because that's 157 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: how fucking climate change works. It's it's just like the 158 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: comprehensive fury comprehensive. And let us be clear too that 159 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: logging doesn't actually work to prevent wildfire, you know, even 160 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, they say that it does, But the kind 161 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: of logging that they do in the name of wildfire 162 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: prevention just looks like clear cuts. And we have a 163 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: pretty robust body of science now showing that those kinds 164 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: of activities actually make fire hazard more severe for local communities. 165 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: So that's like one of the things they're doing, and 166 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: we've been calling it just gaslighting, Like they're gaslighting all 167 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: of us by saying, you know, there's nothing to see here, 168 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: there's nothing to see here. We're taking care of you all. 169 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: You know, we're barely logging at all. And then we've 170 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: got community members on the ground, um, despite the closure 171 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: orders who are like, actually, there's a lot to see here, 172 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: and you all are like completely devastating the landscape and 173 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: further harming our communities. Um. So yeah, it's total gaslighting. Yeah, 174 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: an Oregon has both in terms of like watching fires 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: and watching logging, some like rules that are not in 176 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: place in other areas, especially for like even for for 177 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: press and the like. Like it's it's actually hard to 178 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: get in to look at this stuff, um without you know, 179 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: breaking some sort of law technically, which is not at 180 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: all shady. Um yeah, yeah, I feel like that's another 181 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: important thing. And maybe cat can jump onto is just 182 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: um basically, I mean, I think what people aren't understanding 183 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: is that after the fires, the these federal forest managers 184 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: closed gates and essentially are converting public land into private 185 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: land by you know, using the threat of violence to 186 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: kick people out if they go onto their public land. 187 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: And since and they say until at least, the only 188 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: folks allowed behind these gates are cops and loggers. And 189 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: so this is like literally, um, you know, the enclosure 190 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: of our public lands and like the privatization of our 191 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: public lands so that cops and loggers can do whatever 192 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: the hell they want. Yep. And it's the kind of 193 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: thing I mean, it's the kind of thing that people 194 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: if you're if you're if the if the Bundy's and 195 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: that group actually meant the stuff they were saying, like 196 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: the rhetoric they were putting out, it's the kind of 197 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: thing they would be piste off about. Two Because you're right, 198 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: it is the enclosure of public land by the government 199 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: um and corporation without any kind of consent from the 200 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be the collective owners of 201 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: that land. It's it's a again, something that a lot 202 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: of people should be angry about, who aren't angry about 203 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: because there's been this huge propaganda campaign in the Northwest 204 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: about timber unity and the like and like supporting the 205 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: timber industry um by destroying like the single greatest gift 206 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 1: this entire part of the world has. Uh, It's it's 207 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: pretty frustrating, yea. Anyway, I have to we have to 208 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: actually have a quick break so I can go watch 209 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: my soccer game at the Timber Stadium. Uh, completely unrelated. 210 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: So I'm going to drive out to Wheeler, Oregon myself. 211 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: But we all have different things to do during the break, um, 212 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: but also in the break, I guess we can probably 213 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: do an ad break here, because why not? All right, Yeah, 214 00:11:48,920 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: everybody loves ads, and we're backed still talking about force defense. 215 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: I wanted there's something that people should probably know before 216 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: we go further about the way that that Oregon works. 217 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: So for a while, Oregon is a place where you 218 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: can't get elected, um in a lot of parts of 219 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: a lot of populated parts of Oregon if you're a Republican. 220 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: So the Republicans just plain ice um and and pretend 221 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: and like throw out some some social justice a language 222 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: while while still doing all of the extract of stuff 223 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: they were going to do anyway. And that's the story 224 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: with like Ted Wheeler, um in his family. So Ted 225 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: Ted Wheeler, the mayor of Portland, comes from Timber money. 226 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: His father was a major Republican donor. Not that the 227 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: Democrats don't have a lot of extractive history behind them, 228 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: but like it's it's very obvious what's happening with the 229 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: Wheelers where um, they were huge Republican donors and huge 230 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: backers of the right, and then Oregon had this kind 231 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: of switch politically, um, and so Ted Wheeler just started 232 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: throwing out nice social justicey language. But the whole you know, 233 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: he's he's I'm sure going to make a run for 234 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: governor at some point in the near future. And you've 235 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: got this like this dressed up very extractive logging industry 236 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: and politicians that always find a way to kind of 237 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: make it seem palatable to the liberal majority. Um. And 238 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: they've gotten pretty good at that because it doesn't I 239 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: don't know. I think maybe we're coming to the end 240 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: of this period, but like I haven't, I haven't seen 241 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: up until this last year a lot of widespread kind 242 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: of outrage about the clear cutting UM. And they also 243 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: hide it pretty well. Like if you're driving through these 244 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: beautiful public forests in Oregon, the areas that are right 245 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: along the road will generally be pristine and you'll see 246 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: old growth and everything. But sometimes you can see, as 247 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: you like turn a corner or something that like, oh, 248 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: that old growth only goes back a couple of a 249 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: couple of dozen yards and then it's a clear cut 250 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: UM and they'll they'll they'll hide it so that it's 251 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: it's not as obvious because they know what upset people. 252 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: So there's this, there's this kind of surprisingly, um surprisingly 253 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: thorough campaign to do as much of this as possible 254 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: without upsetting people, um, which which means there's a potential 255 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: to upset people, which means there's a potential to actually 256 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: stop this if enough people get upset. But it's you know, 257 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: you're you're you're going against folks who have thought a 258 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: lot about how to do this in a way that 259 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: isn't going to upset the apple cart. So how do 260 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: you upset the apple cart? I guess that is what 261 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm asking. Well, I think one way that we upset 262 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: the apple cart is by bringing people out to these places. 263 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: And you know, in the action that happened on Tuesday 264 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: that looked like disrupting and disobeying a federal closure order 265 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: in order to bring people out to these places, um, 266 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, basically metaphorically walking behind what you were describing 267 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: the beauty strip along the highway and seeing what's behind it. Um. 268 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: And you know, as we were saying earlier, unfortunately because 269 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: of all these federal closure orders after the fire, that 270 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: looks like risking um, you know, repercussion, state repression, arrest 271 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: even um, in order to just lay eyes on it. 272 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: But that is the way that we chipped the apple cart. 273 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: We get people to see these places so that it 274 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: cuts through the gas lighting that the industry is doing 275 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: and people can literally viscerally feel and see the damage. Um. 276 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: And there's no way to convince them that that's okay 277 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: once they see it. And how do you do go 278 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: about like finding people to bring into this, convincing people 279 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: to come Like, what does kind of that effort look like? 280 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: You want to answer this one cat, You did a 281 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: ton of recruitment, Yeah, totally. UM. I think a big 282 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: part of it is getting them while they're young. UM. 283 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: I think that like young people right now are already 284 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: pretty radicalized, um, compared to ten years or so, probably 285 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: because of I think George Floyd and Black Lives Matter 286 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: and social the use of social media and those movements. UM. 287 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: So I am a college student and we're seeing like 288 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: so many people coming in and ready to throw down, 289 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: like they just cannot wait to get involved, and we'll 290 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: kind of just show up to anything. UM. So I 291 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: think that that's like a major tactic for sure. UM. 292 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: And then also making sure that when you have like 293 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: a an action that you're recruiting people for that it's 294 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: I'm very easy to plug in. It's like very accessible, 295 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: um and kind of just like having it organized very 296 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: well so it's not daunting to come in. Do you 297 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: want to add to that, sam, Well, just to like 298 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: share a little more about like how we did that 299 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: with this particular action that happened on Tuesday. Um. Basically, 300 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, we it was a Tuesday, brainy, freezing middle 301 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: of the forest planning this action, did not think and 302 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: behind a federal closure order, so everyone on site risking 303 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: arrest um and planning this action, it felt like we 304 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: would be lucky as ship if we got ten people 305 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: out there. UM. But I will say, um, it was 306 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: easy as ship to get fifty people out there. And 307 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: that's because people care. UM. And you know, I think 308 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: we did. In terms of organizing strategy, we used the 309 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: affinity group model, and so we had a core you know, 310 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: there was a core group of organizers, and those organizers 311 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: recruited through affinity groups and their affinity groups and UM 312 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: that helped to keep kind of information secure and um, 313 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: you know, everything tightly organized. But UM, people want people 314 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: were really desiring to get together and do something, especially 315 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years of COVID, people are 316 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: just like eager to do something. UM. And on top 317 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: of that, you know, we we promised that this isn't 318 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: just an opportunity to potentially get arrested, but this is 319 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: an educational opportunity and a movement building opportunities. So while 320 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: the road was blocked with a slash pile and a 321 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: fire truck, there were workshops going on. There were hikes 322 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: going on in the forest that's supposed to be cut. UM. 323 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: There was discussions about know your rights trainings and affinity groups. 324 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: We had um a band um playing on top of 325 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: a fire truck, and there was a dance party and basically, 326 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: you know, we're like building community and solidarity UM in 327 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: a positive way while sucking shut up. I think that's 328 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: the key. And I mean, where do you uh, how 329 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: do how do you have like what is the let 330 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: me think of a way to phrase this. What is 331 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: kind of the next step here because they haven't started 332 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: logging this area yet, but they're kind of doing like 333 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: the pre prep work. Um, what do you what do 334 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: you think actually can be done to to halt it? 335 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: Like is it? Is it a problem? Like because it 336 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: seems to me that it's there's got to be like 337 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: a mix of tactics there to actually get them to stop. 338 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: And you're dealing with a number of different um threats, 339 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: including not just at the state level, but these federal 340 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: closure orders. Like what is I don't know what what 341 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: does the path forward look like to you? Yeah, So 342 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: there's a preliminary injunction being forth by some nonprofits and 343 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: so this is a really good example of different tactics 344 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: coming in and so um, the preliminary injunction is basically 345 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: to state that what they're doing before services doing is illegal. Um. 346 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: But before that that can be passed, they can come 347 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: in at any point and log the area. And so 348 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: that's where direct action comes in to slow them down 349 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: and halp them as much as possible until the courts 350 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: can process that injunction. And that feels really huge to 351 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: Like what Kat just said is like where is the 352 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: place of direct action in forest defense? This is like 353 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: the golden moment for direct action while there's like an 354 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: open legal case that we're waiting on a judge to settle, 355 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: and the timber industry is like coming in ready to 356 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: moot out the case by logging before it can even 357 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: be decided. And like to just add a little bit 358 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: more backstory to on. Like another reason why people are 359 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: so pissed about this, um is that you know, this 360 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: watershed has been I think like beloved and also embattled 361 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: since the eighties. Like the infamous Eastern Massacre logging event 362 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: happened in the same watershed. Where could you explain, Yeah, yeah, no, 363 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: totally um item. A timber company was planning to clear 364 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: cut log old growth forest out there and started moving 365 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: on it on Easter um in the snow, and a 366 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: bunch of bad US direct action activists set up a 367 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: five tiered blockade on a logging road to hold off 368 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: the logging and successfully did for um days and days 369 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: until a bunch of them I think over a dozen 370 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: folks got arrested, thrown in jail, and the forest was 371 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: clear cut. Um. So hence you know the Eastern massacre 372 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: name um. But a ton of folks who you know 373 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: still work in forest defense in the spy A region. 374 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: We're there and remember that story, and we're with us 375 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: UM when we were out there this week telling that story. 376 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: And you know since then, between and now, people have 377 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: been showing up again and again and again in this 378 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: watershed as it is so special to try and fight 379 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: off logging. And myself and Cat have been a part 380 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: of efforts over the past handful of years to um 381 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: fight off a number of logging projects out there. We 382 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: were successful in doing that. We actually like snacked the 383 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: Forest Services grubby hands off of a bunch of oil 384 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: growth because our scrappy friends spent days exploring this watershed 385 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: and documenting, doing like site specific science citizen science documentation 386 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: and giving it to the Forest Service. And we fought 387 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: them and one and protected a bunch of the forest. 388 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: And then the fires came through and they closed the 389 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: gates and they secretly changed all of these contracts to 390 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: include clear cut logging. And so that is why there 391 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: is an open lawsuit because we believe it's illegal what 392 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: they're doing. It's sketchy and illegal, yeah, but it does 393 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: it does illustrate like kind of the depth of the 394 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: fight necessary, not just in forest defense but at all 395 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: efforts of kind of resisting the extract of industries that 396 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: are driving a lot of climate change. It's it's not enough. 397 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: It's never enough to win the first victory. They're going 398 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: to find some way to to to swoop around to 399 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: the flanks and try to take it away from you 400 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: like they're doing right now. Um, which is exhausting. Um, 401 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: it seems exhausting, but it doesn't mean it. You can 402 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: ignore it. It's fucking exhausting. Yeah. I always say it's 403 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: like our forests, our federal management agencies, they suffer from 404 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: this powerful amnesia where they just like keep coming back 405 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: with the same bullshit proposals. But like our movement does 406 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: not suffer from that, and we are just like building 407 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: power and getting stronger and getting more successful. So like 408 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: when people left on Tuesday, um, there was a promise 409 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: that people will be back if logging happens, and we're 410 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: very sure that that would be the case. And if 411 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: if people are in the Cascadian bioregion and are like, 412 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: well this sounds pretty sweet. I wanna, I wanna, I 413 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: wanna keep keep some trees where they are as opposed 414 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: to putting them on the back of a truck to 415 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: drive somewhere else. How could they get involved, where where 416 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: might they reach out to? Well, there's a few different 417 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: groups who were a part of this UM definitely UM, 418 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: the Portland Rising Tide, Cascadia Forest Defenders, UM, CAT can 419 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: talk about Climate Justice League and UM maybe the action 420 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: that you all put on yesterday as a follow up 421 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: and like how folks can get involved with that UM 422 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: but basically, yeah, you can follow us on Twitter, UM 423 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: and Instagram and and please UM, you know, keep a 424 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: lookout because we will be we'll be getting it out 425 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: far and wide if there's a call for folks to 426 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: get out there again. Yeah, and Climate Justice League is 427 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: an organ UM at the University of Oregon and people 428 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: are free to just join the organization. Community members are 429 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: also involved. UM. But we did put on an event 430 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: yesterday where Tyler Ferres of Ferris Logging or First Timber UM, 431 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: who is actually the company that bought the rights to 432 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: Brighton Bush, which was the area where we did UM 433 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: the action on Tuesday, he was giving a speech at 434 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: the University of Oregon UM to talk about post firelogging, 435 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: which was just like crazy timing. They kind of just 436 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: like put it in our lap and so we recruited 437 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: from that action or like let's just drop the hell 438 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: out of this UM talk, and so we like showed 439 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: up and kind of tried to sneak in. They were 440 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: having zoom issues, which like luckily distracted them from the 441 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: fact that there was like forty or fifty like pretty punk, 442 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: anarchy looking kids in the room. Um. But we like 443 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: let him go on for a little bit, and then 444 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: we started to ask him questions that he obviously didn't 445 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: know the answer to. Um. We kept like asking questions about, 446 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, the science says this, but you're stating this 447 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: where you getting your science from? And he kept saying 448 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: things like, well, that's more of a political question and 449 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: the statistics don't really back up what you're saying. Um. 450 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: And then yeah, we just chanted and made him really nervous. Yeah. 451 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: And as a heads up, if you're if you're looking 452 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: to win an argument on a zoom call, you can 453 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: just say, uh, the statistics don't back you up without 454 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: citing statistics. It's it's it's really the easiest way to 455 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: do that. M I guess I am kind of curious 456 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 1: for like you guys said, you've you've prevented you know, 457 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: some of the stuff in the past by doing stuff 458 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: like documentation. Um, and you know when when when that 459 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: kind of thing becomes not enough. You know that this 460 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: this area does have a rich history of kind of 461 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: direct action stuff to protect forests with a get also 462 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: like a mixed success like by note means does direct 463 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: action always always work to do anything? Right now, we 464 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: still have the line three pipeline, We still have all 465 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: of these things that direct action has tried to prevent. 466 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: But it turns out a lot of the kind of 467 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: direct action that's associated with these types of like ecological 468 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: things is is kind of more performative than anything else, 469 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: you know, Like it is kind of like a tree 470 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: set is about gaining media media like publicity, because they're 471 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: gonna get you down right like eventually, and it's and 472 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: it's and it's gonna be painful because like you're not 473 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: going to be sitting up there for years to to 474 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: to to to to prevent the treat from being logged. 475 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: So how close do you think we are into to 476 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: like reaching that kind of territory like it was in 477 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: like the nineties and eighties where it is like a 478 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people like blocking off roads 479 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: and doing and and doing that kind of thing. You know, 480 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: more like you know what what it crosses into that 481 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: it's more like autonomous. It's not it's not like led 482 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: by a single organization by any means. See, it's more 483 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: it's more decentralized. But did you see that kind of 484 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: happening soon? And you know, how, how how do you 485 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: think we can balance out direct action with like other 486 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: like thoughtful means of trying to draw attention to these 487 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: things and maybe actually and and other things like actually 488 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: physically physically preventing the logging of certain areas. That's such 489 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: a good question. And um, I'm really thankful that we're 490 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: talking about strategy because um, kind of, like I mentioned, 491 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: I moved out here like ten years ago to do 492 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: force defense work and have seen so many instances in 493 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: where people are trying to do direct action in a 494 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: in a time and space where it doesn't make sense. Um, 495 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: where it's like basically slated too. It's going to lose 496 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: because um, it's just impossible too, as you said, you know, 497 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: hold this blockade for weeks and weeks and weeks and 498 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: the snow um indefinitely, you know, as we you know, 499 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: as they continue to try to log in definitely. So 500 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: there's definitely a sweet spot for where um, the sort 501 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: of kind of the sort of direct action that we're 502 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: talking about, like blockading, where that is most useful, and 503 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: that sweet spot is definitely when there is another decisive move, 504 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: like another like legal victory that's waiting in the wings 505 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: or um, you know, we won one in Washington without 506 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: a legal victory because we shamed the ship out of 507 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: the Department of Natural Resources in the Seattle Times and 508 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: they were like, WHOA, We're sorry, um, And so direct 509 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: action held off something until we were able to sufficiently 510 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: shame them and deter them. But typically they don't shame well, um, 511 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: and so typically, um, you know, we need illegal there 512 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: needs to be a legal element UM backing it up. 513 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: So direct action is a time buyer. But that said, 514 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: like obviously, blockading things is not the only type of 515 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: direct action, and part of the rich history of forest 516 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: offense in this buyer region is other kinds of more 517 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 1: um necessarily you know, discrete kinds of direct action that 518 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: obviously you know, I'm um not a part of speaking 519 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: on this radio show, but UM would would publicly, um, 520 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, say like those things probably need to happen, 521 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: and I hope they fucking had what what what what 522 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: I could say is that I've I've seen these things 523 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: happening in other places, like in like in the Atlanta 524 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: Defending Forest movement. Right now, I have I I have 525 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: seen evidence that individuals not associated with any group are 526 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: putting spikes and trees, and that is that is, that 527 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: is something that is happening, right, And all that takes 528 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: is one person, right, It's that's not like a group 529 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: of twenty people going into the four risk to do that. 530 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: That's the one person in an afternoon, right. So those 531 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: are the types of like single person direct actions, which again, yeah, 532 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: any type of direct action is going to be scary, right, 533 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: You're you're once you start doing that, that is you 534 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: know that introduced to certain things that will is kind 535 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: of is kind of more frightening to you as a person. Um. 536 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: But but it's it is something that is happening in 537 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: other places. Um. And it has showed to at the 538 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: very least upset the people who are wanting logging to happen. Generally, 539 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: they're not thrilled when they when they find when they 540 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: find these things. Um yeah, yeah, because like it's like 541 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: it's I mean, I think like when it comes down 542 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: to it, it's like about knowing what your goal is 543 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: with this tactic like on you know, in in the 544 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: action that happened this past week, there was an understanding 545 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: that the goal was to you know, shine a light 546 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: on this thing that's happening in secrecy, shame the Forest Service, 547 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and build movement, movement building so that we're ready u 548 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: when people need to throw down for real and and 549 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: that might happen soon. We weren't trying to hold the 550 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: space for weeks and weeks and weeks um. That wasn't 551 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: the goal. So like going in being like what kind 552 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: of an action are we trying to do? What are 553 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: we trying to complish? Are we trying to be decisive? 554 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: Are we trying to like shape the conditions necessary for 555 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: success and like culture build, or we trying like what 556 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: are we actually trying to do? And then like coming 557 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: away with that, having having that clear having a clear 558 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: sense of that beforehand, I think really really is crucial 559 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: because I've definitely observed direct actions where that is not 560 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: the case and people have not thought those things through 561 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: and it becomes the kind of unfun version of chaos 562 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: um where you know, things things don't really get done 563 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: and you're just kind of sitting around and everyone's kind 564 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: of slightly miserable because again, you're in a freezing forest, um, 565 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: and no one really knows what the hell they're doing. UM. 566 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: So definitely having those kind of things thought through beforehand 567 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: is extremely useful when you're deciding to trudge your way 568 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: into some cold, dark woods. Now we're going for chaotic good, 569 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: not chaotic evil. Yeah, well a little bit of chaotic, Well, 570 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: it depends, it depends what. It depends what we mean 571 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: by evil evil evil to some people, we we yeah, anyway, 572 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: and any other kind of historical notes on forest defense 573 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: or any other kind of random random tidbits like to 574 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: mention before before we close out. The one thing that 575 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: I feel like it's super important to say to people 576 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: is that forest defense is not just about protecting forests. 577 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: It's about protecting all of us. We know now like 578 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: forest defenses, climate defense. Our forests are our best natural 579 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: tool for fighting climate change. And also like we need 580 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: them here. Most of Oregonian get their drinking water from 581 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: forests and watersheds, like they literally are sustaining all of us. 582 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: And so yeah, we hope folks join like not just 583 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: for the sake of like being you know, hippie tree huggers. 584 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: Even though you know some of us are, but also 585 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: because like we need to survive as a people and 586 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: as a planet and um or sorry. Best way to 587 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: do that it's it's the cheapest most advanced form of 588 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: carbon capture we have yet. So yeah, it seems seems 589 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: kind of asinine to chop that all down to build 590 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: some shitty sheds. Mm hmm, all right, well that's a sad. 591 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 592 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 593 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 594 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 595 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 596 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 597 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.