WEBVTT - Timothy Snyder 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:17.330 Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome 0:00:17.350 --> 0:00:20.450 to a very special Work in Progress, friends. One of 0:00:20.489 --> 0:00:23.229 the people I have the biggest brain crush on the 0:00:23.270 --> 0:00:27.210 world is on the podcast today. And honestly, I'm just 0:00:27.230 --> 0:00:30.590 trying to keep it chill. We are joined by none 0:00:30.890 --> 0:00:36.030 other than Timothy Snyder. Timothy is a Yale historian and 0:00:36.090 --> 0:00:39.670 one of the world's leading experts on authoritarianism, democracy, and 0:00:39.690 --> 0:00:44.060 the forces that shape whether societies remain free. He is 0:00:44.100 --> 0:00:48.300 the person who is my go-to for information on what 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:53.400 it looks like to understand how democracies can slowly fall 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.350 apart and also how we can save them. He really 0:00:57.530 --> 0:01:00.710 asks us to inspect what it means when a system 0:01:00.730 --> 0:01:04.770 doesn't collapse all at once, but begins being chipped away 0:01:04.850 --> 0:01:07.930 at through fear, exhaustion, silence, and the choices that people 0:01:07.990 --> 0:01:12.009 make or avoid making along the way. He spent his 0:01:12.050 --> 0:01:15.619 whole career studying this stuff, you guys. and is simply 0:01:15.700 --> 0:01:18.520 one of the smartest people in the world on the topic. 0:01:18.940 --> 0:01:23.250 He understands how countries lose democratic freedoms and how ordinary 0:01:23.310 --> 0:01:26.949 people like us fight to reclaim them. He gave us 0:01:27.010 --> 0:01:30.450 a guide to recognize the warning signs of decline in 0:01:30.510 --> 0:01:35.300 his international bestseller, On Tyranny, 20 Lessons from the 20th Century. 0:01:35.740 --> 0:01:37.780 It is a quick read, I promise you. The book 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.980 is literally small enough to fit in your back pocket. 0:01:41.050 --> 0:01:45.449 It is prophetic and terrifying and strangely empowering and something 0:01:45.470 --> 0:01:49.510 that I return to often. I did admit to him 0:01:49.970 --> 0:01:52.110 in this interview that I bought 10 copies and started 0:01:52.150 --> 0:01:55.380 leaving them in people's houses during parties, like just, you know, 0:01:55.470 --> 0:01:57.260 on the back of the toilet, in the living room, wherever. 0:01:58.540 --> 0:02:02.340 It's a really good party trick. His latest book on 0:02:02.580 --> 0:02:07.800 freedom really helps us explore how we can get it back. 0:02:08.830 --> 0:02:11.970 because he knows enough to give us not just warnings 0:02:12.010 --> 0:02:15.710 about one leader who suddenly takes freedom away. He shows 0:02:15.830 --> 0:02:19.150 us how historically the relationships between leaders who seek more 0:02:19.190 --> 0:02:23.380 power and a society that, whether through fear, exhaustion, apathy, 0:02:23.460 --> 0:02:28.080 or loyalty, gradually allows that power to grow into something 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.200 that's dangerous for all of us. But here's the thing. 0:02:31.740 --> 0:02:34.139 What all this means is that the story of democracy 0:02:34.220 --> 0:02:36.830 is not only about what those in power do, It's 0:02:36.870 --> 0:02:40.190 about what us citizens choose to do or not. He 0:02:40.230 --> 0:02:42.870 has so much wisdom to share about this moment in 0:02:42.930 --> 0:02:45.850 America and around the world, what history can teach us, 0:02:45.910 --> 0:02:48.769 what we should be watching for, and most importantly, what 0:02:48.850 --> 0:02:51.470 each of us can do next. And if you're feeling 0:02:51.490 --> 0:02:54.570 like me, you want a little bit of direction right now. 0:02:54.620 --> 0:02:56.810 You want to know where you can be the most helpful. 0:02:57.500 --> 0:03:01.700 And Timothy Snyder, he's got ideas. So let's dive in 0:03:01.980 --> 0:03:15.890 with one of the coolest professors in the world. I 0:03:15.930 --> 0:03:19.010 had to bust out my pocket sized on tyranny that 0:03:19.090 --> 0:03:23.870 I literally take everywhere with me. And I've, after the 0:03:24.710 --> 0:03:27.250 last election, I ordered 10 more of them and I 0:03:27.290 --> 0:03:30.310 would just leave them at people's houses during parties. 0:03:31.510 --> 0:03:35.550 Yeah. That, that's how it's all happened. Things like that, 0:03:35.670 --> 0:03:39.930 like Christmas gifts, parties where it's like, it's a, it's 0:03:39.950 --> 0:03:43.180 a party favor, you know, that's how it's been like 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.059 people buying 10 or a hundred or whatever and sharing them. 0:03:46.460 --> 0:03:48.160 That's how I started it. I mean, when I, the 0:03:48.180 --> 0:03:49.680 book came out, nobody heard of it and I was 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.150 literally walking around with a backpack like full of it 0:03:52.190 --> 0:03:53.670 and just kind of giving it to people. 0:03:53.690 --> 0:03:57.530 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so very cool. Well, I'm, I'm 0:03:57.750 --> 0:04:01.790 a longtime fan and a democracy nerd and just so 0:04:01.950 --> 0:04:05.080 elated to have you on the show. Thank you for coming. Yeah. 0:04:05.260 --> 0:04:06.720 Very glad. Yeah. 0:04:07.340 --> 0:04:08.880 And how are things in Toronto? How are you doing 0:04:08.940 --> 0:04:09.200 up there? 0:04:09.650 --> 0:04:12.510 Oh, Toronto's good. I mean, I was just, I've been 0:04:12.550 --> 0:04:14.170 in Europe and I just flew back a couple of 0:04:14.190 --> 0:04:22.010 days ago for my daughter's softball tournaments. Yeah. So things 0:04:22.070 --> 0:04:25.669 in Toronto seem fine. I mean, weirdly hot, like everywhere. 0:04:25.690 --> 0:04:29.510 But yeah, Toronto's in general a great place to live. 0:04:29.529 --> 0:04:31.190 I was at a Jays game last night with some 0:04:31.230 --> 0:04:34.390 friends and they won two to one. And as I 0:04:34.410 --> 0:04:37.610 was walking out, some random guy in the crowd just said, I. 0:04:37.450 --> 0:04:39.300 F * * * ing love Toronto. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:44.659 Have I ever heard anybody say that in a U.S. 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:44.900 City? 0:04:44.940 --> 0:04:47.599 Just out of the clear blue sky. Like, I love 0:04:47.660 --> 0:04:51.080 the city that I'm in. It is a really good city. 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.279 I'm glad Toronto is lovely now. I'm curious if we 0:04:56.140 --> 0:05:01.359 go back in time to Dayton, Ohio, back in 1978, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:06.190 where might we find Timothy as a kid on a 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.340 random Saturday? Yeah. Were you out playing softball like your 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.320 daughter does now? Or were you in the library studying history? 0:05:13.930 --> 0:05:16.430 Okay, I'm going to try to make my answer to 0:05:16.460 --> 0:05:21.770 your next question sound less corny than this one. 0:05:22.190 --> 0:05:23.409 I like a little bit of corny. 0:05:23.510 --> 0:05:27.130 So I, yeah, I mean, as a kid, I played baseball, 0:05:27.450 --> 0:05:30.930 and I played soccer. And I was very serious about baseball. 0:05:31.230 --> 0:05:34.070 And I played in the backyards with my friends. And 0:05:34.089 --> 0:05:36.050 then when I had time to myself, I would like, 0:05:36.580 --> 0:05:38.589 stand by the side of the house and just throw 0:05:38.610 --> 0:05:40.570 the ball off the side of the house and catch 0:05:40.589 --> 0:05:43.730 it hundreds of times. Um, which meant that I was 0:05:43.810 --> 0:05:48.510 often in the neighbor's flower garden, um, which he was 0:05:48.529 --> 0:05:51.510 a little bit upset about understandably, but yeah, on a 0:05:51.550 --> 0:05:56.160 Saturday afternoon playing baseball, very likely, but yeah, also the library, 0:05:56.700 --> 0:05:59.500 we had a strong, um, uh, where I grew up 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:01.520 in Centerville, which is a suburb of Dayton in the 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:06.170 Southwest side. We, um, we, We had a very strong 0:06:06.410 --> 0:06:08.980 township library and then another one was built when I 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:10.900 was a little bit older. And I did spend a 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:12.880 lot of time hanging out there and reading books. And 0:06:12.900 --> 0:06:14.839 there was like a summer reading club where they had 0:06:14.860 --> 0:06:16.740 made you make a list of the books that you read. 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.240 And the more books you read, the bigger your chances 0:06:19.260 --> 0:06:21.100 of winning something in a lottery. And I found that 0:06:21.140 --> 0:06:23.470 very exciting. So I read absurd numbers of books in 0:06:23.490 --> 0:06:27.089 the summertime in the hopes of winning these little prizes 0:06:27.150 --> 0:06:31.510 and stuff. Yeah, so both of those things were very 0:06:31.570 --> 0:06:33.530 much part of my life in the 70s as a kid. 0:06:35.580 --> 0:06:39.339 Very cool. When did your fascination with history start? 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:44.780 That's a really good question. I mean, I tell people 0:06:44.820 --> 0:06:49.490 that I'm an American, I'm a historian, but I'm not 0:06:49.550 --> 0:06:53.390 an American historian. Only later in life did I come 0:06:53.450 --> 0:06:57.430 around to trying to figure out U.S. history. I started 0:06:57.470 --> 0:06:59.950 out as an economics and philosophy and political science major, 0:07:00.010 --> 0:07:02.810 and I ended up as a history major with political science, too. 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.849 And it was because I loved history and I enjoyed it. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.460 And then I thought I was going to be a diplomat. 0:07:08.490 --> 0:07:10.020 So like life is all about the things that you 0:07:10.620 --> 0:07:12.290 don't do that you think you're going to do when 0:07:12.490 --> 0:07:15.310 you end up doing something else. Right. But I mean, 0:07:15.370 --> 0:07:17.650 maybe your life has been much more straightforward, but I 0:07:17.690 --> 0:07:17.980 doubt it. 0:07:17.990 --> 0:07:18.610 Definitely not. 0:07:18.830 --> 0:07:22.830 Yeah. So I thought so that I still thought I 0:07:22.830 --> 0:07:24.190 was going to be a diplomat and I was just 0:07:24.210 --> 0:07:26.290 going to do I was able to go to the 0:07:26.310 --> 0:07:28.550 United Kingdom to study history. But I thought I'm going 0:07:28.570 --> 0:07:29.750 to do this for a few years and I'm going 0:07:29.770 --> 0:07:30.470 to be a diplomat. 0:07:30.510 --> 0:07:30.650 Right. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:32.720 And while I was studying history in the UK, I 0:07:32.780 --> 0:07:34.640 still loved it. And it was the early 80s. And 0:07:34.690 --> 0:07:37.230 I could be among the people, sorry, early 90s. And 0:07:37.250 --> 0:07:38.910 I could be among the people who were the first 0:07:39.150 --> 0:07:43.850 to read certain files in certain archives in post-communist Eastern Europe. 0:07:44.450 --> 0:07:46.090 I felt like I could figure things out that hadn't 0:07:46.110 --> 0:07:48.750 been figured out before. And it was a very exciting moment, 0:07:48.770 --> 0:07:52.170 the early 90s, where things were changing on a historical scale. 0:07:52.650 --> 0:07:54.630 And I was making new friends and I was free. 0:07:54.750 --> 0:07:59.760 And that was really when I came to see that 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:01.940 history was the thing that I could do. And I 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.670 had a funny conversation with my advisor. It was a terrific, 0:08:05.630 --> 0:08:09.190 horrific historian and journalist called Timothy Gardinash at which he, 0:08:09.330 --> 0:08:11.330 and it was like, it was literally a walk around 0:08:11.370 --> 0:08:13.450 a park. I mean, around a lake. It was just 0:08:13.490 --> 0:08:16.210 the most, the most serene, calm English scene one could 0:08:16.270 --> 0:08:21.440 imagine in which he told me, he probably phrased it 0:08:21.460 --> 0:08:23.080 even more elegantly, but he said to me like, Tim, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.060 I believe you have a unique historical gift that, by 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:28.700 which he meant that I really wasn't as good at 0:08:28.740 --> 0:08:31.900 the other stuff as I thought I was, right? I 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.780 should be a historian. But by that time, like it 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.310 had already dawned on me that I really enjoyed this. 0:08:37.390 --> 0:08:40.190 I really enjoyed finding things out, going against the grain, 0:08:40.270 --> 0:08:42.650 reading what you weren't supposed to read, understanding the things 0:08:42.690 --> 0:08:46.689 that were obscure at the time. And also from, I 0:08:46.730 --> 0:08:49.890 was studying with East European historians who themselves were often 0:08:49.950 --> 0:08:52.950 dissidents or in some way involved in politics. And so 0:08:53.010 --> 0:08:55.680 I took for granted this, That being a historian also 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.350 gave you leverage on talking about everyday life. 0:09:00.590 --> 0:09:14.200 And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. What's fascinating 0:09:14.260 --> 0:09:17.960 to see in the world right now is these big 0:09:18.990 --> 0:09:23.950 you know, approximate hundred year patterns repeating themselves. The warnings 0:09:23.990 --> 0:09:28.590 of historians like yourself seeming not to be taken so seriously. 0:09:28.620 --> 0:09:33.360 And then you see repeated, you know, speeches that are 0:09:33.380 --> 0:09:36.440 filled with talking points that are being given by the 0:09:36.620 --> 0:09:41.270 current presidential administration that mirror the Third Reich narrative. you know, 0:09:41.630 --> 0:09:46.060 you see rising fascism around the world. It's so kind of, 0:09:47.380 --> 0:09:49.859 it's alarming to me in the present, but it's particularly 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.090 scary that in the age of information, we're allowing these 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:58.600 things to be essentially copy-pasted. And I'm really curious, as 0:09:58.660 --> 0:10:01.300 a person who's able to see the umbrella over all 0:10:01.330 --> 0:10:05.250 of this the way you do, are there things that 0:10:06.690 --> 0:10:11.589 maybe not things, historical patterns that you think are most 0:10:11.670 --> 0:10:14.319 important for people to understand today? Is, is there, is 0:10:14.940 --> 0:10:17.760 there a thread or three that you would suggest people 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.679 trying to make sense of all this begin to pull? 0:10:20.700 --> 0:10:24.790 It's a great question. I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm pausing 0:10:24.850 --> 0:10:28.070 over the hundred year idea because there's really something to that. 0:10:28.690 --> 0:10:31.520 There was, um, There was a globalization crisis at the 0:10:31.540 --> 0:10:33.780 end of the 19th and the early 20th century, just 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:35.660 like there was a globalization crisis at the end of 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:42.580 the 20th and the 21st. And reactions were similar to think, okay, well, 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.949 the globalization didn't work out the way we wanted. Everything's 0:10:46.990 --> 0:10:50.209 not harmonious. What should we do? And then the response 0:10:50.309 --> 0:10:56.050 being to turn against immigrants, to divide people into us 0:10:56.390 --> 0:10:59.980 and to them. to think in terms of conspiracies and 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.900 so on. So in a very broad way, that is 0:11:02.020 --> 0:11:05.339 one example that if you have globalization and attach high 0:11:05.380 --> 0:11:07.920 hopes to it, the next likely step is some kind 0:11:07.940 --> 0:11:11.180 of globalization crisis. And then how do you react to that? 0:11:11.220 --> 0:11:16.140 How do you get by it? Going back even further, 0:11:16.140 --> 0:11:21.230 2,500 years or so, there's the debate about democracy. So 0:11:21.970 --> 0:11:26.280 the Greeks knew that democracy was hard. I mean, some 0:11:26.300 --> 0:11:28.830 of them were for, some were against, but everyone agreed 0:11:28.850 --> 0:11:32.329 that it was hard. And that is a deep historical lesson, 0:11:32.370 --> 0:11:34.690 which I think we ought not to forget because we 0:11:34.730 --> 0:11:37.910 tell ourselves stories about how history works that aren't true. 0:11:38.050 --> 0:11:40.650 We say like, well, you know, the trend is always 0:11:40.690 --> 0:11:43.760 towards justice or the economy is going to bring us 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.080 towards freedom or, you know, the founding fathers left us 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.520 a legacy. We tell ourselves stories about how history is 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.260 going to bring us things, but history is not going 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.400 to bring us democracy. I mean, it might bring us 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.760 better and worse moments for democracy, but it's not going 0:11:56.780 --> 0:11:59.459 to bring us democracy. You can only get democracy if 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.060 you actually want it. If you say like this, in 0:12:02.140 --> 0:12:04.560 this moment in history, I am going to try to 0:12:04.820 --> 0:12:08.140 sink my fingers into what's happening and change it. Because 0:12:08.179 --> 0:12:10.570 democracy is about the people ruling. And so you have 0:12:10.610 --> 0:12:12.230 to want to rule. You have to want to be 0:12:12.250 --> 0:12:13.849 in power. You have to say, okay, I'm going to 0:12:13.870 --> 0:12:16.850 take a little tiny bit of a risk. So that's 0:12:16.910 --> 0:12:20.130 a deep one. And then just then jumping back up 0:12:20.170 --> 0:12:24.360 to the present, the history of the last 30, five 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.600 years or so since the end of communism teaches a lesson, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:32.460 which is worth noticing, which is that the modern technology, 0:12:32.500 --> 0:12:36.790 the information age that you're talking about also enables regimes 0:12:37.570 --> 0:12:43.110 and organized cliques of wealthy people to arrange reality in 0:12:43.150 --> 0:12:46.830 a way that makes authoritarianism, the slide to authoritarianism happened 0:12:46.850 --> 0:12:49.939 very quickly, which took place in Russia. It took place 0:12:50.020 --> 0:12:54.390 in Hungary, but yeah, The last 35 years also teaches 0:12:54.550 --> 0:12:57.709 that these shifts away from democracy can be stopped and 0:12:57.750 --> 0:13:00.290 they can be reversed. If you have a big coalition, 0:13:01.570 --> 0:13:03.630 if people are willing to take risks, if people are 0:13:03.650 --> 0:13:05.290 willing to work with others with whom they don't agree 0:13:05.330 --> 0:13:08.429 on every single issue, right? If people are willing to 0:13:08.460 --> 0:13:10.600 make politics personal again and go local and so on, 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.040 that you can actually stop and you can actually turn 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.940 the tide back. So those are three examples of how 0:13:15.980 --> 0:13:16.800 I think about history. 0:13:17.290 --> 0:13:19.079 I love that. And the last one makes me feel 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.959 hopeful because it's hard to look at the news every 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.500 day and not just feel like everything is metaphorically and 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:31.090 in certain geographies literally on fire. And the idea that 0:13:31.130 --> 0:13:36.160 there are... you know, stopgaps, the idea that if you 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:41.000 get invested locally, the idea that if you begin to 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.880 talk to your neighbors makes me feel hopeful. I am 0:13:43.980 --> 0:13:47.420 curious on something, you know, in the last election cycle, 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:52.480 I heard a sort of post-mortem that I thought was 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.160 very astute that said, we're going to continue to have 0:13:57.210 --> 0:14:01.209 these problems when a lot of us on the left, 0:14:01.450 --> 0:14:05.750 we have to we're 90% voters. Like we can agree 0:14:05.830 --> 0:14:08.130 on 90% of the issues, but if there's 10% we 0:14:08.170 --> 0:14:10.710 don't agree on with a candidate, a lot of people 0:14:10.750 --> 0:14:13.400 won't vote for them. And that on the right, as 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.980 long as people agree with 10% of what the candidate says, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.120 they'll vote for them. And, you know, it's how you 0:14:19.140 --> 0:14:22.600 get single issue voters on, you know, reproductive justice or 0:14:23.060 --> 0:14:28.120 reproductive restriction. It's why, you know, you saw people agree with, 0:14:29.020 --> 0:14:32.130 you know, nearly or virtually every one of Vice President 0:14:32.150 --> 0:14:37.150 Harris's domestic policy suggestions, but not with her on foreign policy. 0:14:37.190 --> 0:14:39.489 And you had all these people who didn't vote. And 0:14:40.470 --> 0:14:45.470 I'm curious what you think as an expert, how do 0:14:45.510 --> 0:14:51.489 you think we as a voting populace need to readjust 0:14:51.550 --> 0:14:57.160 our expectations or recalibrate how we make these decisions so 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:01.180 that less people are voting against their interests and also 0:15:02.410 --> 0:15:05.510 less people fall for this kind of false ideology of 0:15:06.070 --> 0:15:07.530 political figures in the first place. 0:15:08.650 --> 0:15:11.820 Yeah. So I'm going to start the answer by jumping 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.700 forward in time to after you've already won the election, 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.950 because there's some structural stuff that goes in here because, 0:15:19.970 --> 0:15:25.670 you know, we can't expect an electorate just on its 0:15:25.810 --> 0:15:31.720 own to deal with a propaganda apparatus organized by the 0:15:31.780 --> 0:15:33.480 center of the federal government. 0:15:33.780 --> 0:15:35.200 Which is what we currently have. 0:15:35.260 --> 0:15:39.120 Yeah, exactly. And we can't expect an electorate on its 0:15:39.250 --> 0:15:43.530 own to deal with the, you know, algorithmically driven hypnotic 0:15:43.590 --> 0:15:48.430 worlds of propaganda of social media, right? It's not fair 0:15:48.510 --> 0:15:52.630 to put people in that position, basically, right? Like we've 0:15:53.250 --> 0:15:57.960 Like if somebody materialized into existence today and they're thrown 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.580 into the world today, they're faced with this hugely unjust 0:16:01.820 --> 0:16:06.440 and wildly inaccurate presentation of the way things are, right? 0:16:06.500 --> 0:16:09.140 And that's not their fault. They didn't make it. That's 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.620 just the way it is. So, I mean, their information 0:16:11.660 --> 0:16:14.240 habits could be better or could be worse. But if 0:16:14.300 --> 0:16:17.080 you have power, that's something you have to change. You 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.320 have to regulate social media. You have to refund public education. 0:16:21.790 --> 0:16:23.690 You have to divert some of the profits from social 0:16:23.750 --> 0:16:27.229 media towards local journalism. You have to create a world 0:16:27.290 --> 0:16:30.030 of factuality where people have a chance. You have to 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.800 give them a chance, right? I mean, I think it's 0:16:33.860 --> 0:16:37.320 almost literally like food and water and air where individuals 0:16:37.420 --> 0:16:41.210 can't produce them for themselves. We don't expect the person 0:16:41.570 --> 0:16:43.590 standing next to you on the subway to produce their 0:16:43.810 --> 0:16:46.840 own water, right? And likewise, we can't expect them to 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.480 produce their own factuality. We have to work together to 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.780 create an environment in which there is more factuality. When 0:16:52.860 --> 0:16:57.140 we've done that, then we can move on to persuading 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.670 and talking about people's interests. But I think our main 0:17:00.710 --> 0:17:03.550 problem is that we have to have a breakthrough where 0:17:03.570 --> 0:17:06.770 we can actually do that thing. So a lot of 0:17:06.810 --> 0:17:10.120 it is structural and it will come after, I think, 0:17:11.580 --> 0:17:15.050 the right people are in power. Where things are now, 0:17:15.090 --> 0:17:18.530 just a couple more remarks. I mean, I, I, I'm 0:17:18.570 --> 0:17:23.109 of the school of thought that you can't really go back. 0:17:23.330 --> 0:17:25.990 Like there isn't a, like there's no status quo ante now, 0:17:26.170 --> 0:17:29.010 you know, the house has been burned down, but the 0:17:29.050 --> 0:17:32.270 nice thing about, I mean, it's, but the good thing 0:17:32.330 --> 0:17:35.109 about that is that you can start again. So there 0:17:35.130 --> 0:17:38.950 are a lot of policy areas like taxing wealthy people, 0:17:39.670 --> 0:17:43.990 or healthcare or where we just need to start again, 0:17:44.190 --> 0:17:47.280 where things are just so ridiculously bad that we just 0:17:47.340 --> 0:17:51.820 have to start again. And social media is another example, AI, 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.600 where we have to start again, where the parameters of 0:17:54.619 --> 0:17:57.840 the conversation are just wrong and we need to start again. 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.859 And the fact that things are so bad gives us 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.330 a chance to do that. Then we lose that chance 0:18:04.420 --> 0:18:07.129 though when we pretend it isn't there. And which is 0:18:07.150 --> 0:18:10.070 where a lot of people on the moderate side of Democrats, 0:18:10.109 --> 0:18:12.790 maybe are like pretending that we can go back to 0:18:12.830 --> 0:18:14.850 Biden or we can go back to Obama or Clinton 0:18:14.869 --> 0:18:18.270 or whatever. And with all due respect to those people, 0:18:18.330 --> 0:18:20.429 and there's a lot to respect about them, you can 0:18:20.450 --> 0:18:22.850 never go back in time. But also, and this is 0:18:22.910 --> 0:18:25.630 the hard truth, that world led us to this world. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:27.940 You know, so there were things that were wrong about 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.340 that world, which made this world possible. And so it's 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.060 not just about correcting the Trump era. It's about correcting 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.340 things that went wrong, you know, going at least back 0:18:35.820 --> 0:18:38.040 to the 1980s and probably further back. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:39.000 Than that. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.359 And then the one final thing I would add about 0:18:41.420 --> 0:18:44.199 folks on the left, which is a kindred remark to 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.270 yours is that sure, you know, 90% voters, but we 0:18:48.290 --> 0:18:51.470 spend a lot, we sometimes spend 90% of our energy 0:18:52.150 --> 0:18:55.290 disagreeing with each other. Like there's a, there's a, like 0:18:55.310 --> 0:18:57.429 there's a, there's an addiction in some parts of the 0:18:57.490 --> 0:19:01.220 left anyway. And people also get provoked online into doing 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.040 this to caring a lot about being right. Like I, 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.860 I'm right about everything and you have to be right. 0:19:08.140 --> 0:19:10.419 about the same things that i'm right about in exactly 0:19:10.460 --> 0:19:12.699 the same way and like if i find find one 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:14.980 little thing you know that i'm more radical than you 0:19:15.060 --> 0:19:17.000 and like and then and then like forget it right 0:19:17.060 --> 0:19:20.659 so we have that pride has to be swallowed because 0:19:21.369 --> 0:19:23.770 the only if you're truly radical you don't mind being 0:19:23.790 --> 0:19:27.130 in a coalition because you believe that your radical ideas 0:19:27.170 --> 0:19:29.770 are correct and they'll win out in the end but 0:19:30.250 --> 0:19:32.129 what people can't do is be purists and say well 0:19:32.150 --> 0:19:34.560 they don't agree with me about You know, national health 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.020 insurance or they don't agree with me about Gaza or 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.240 they don't agree with about Ukraine. They don't agree with 0:19:39.380 --> 0:19:42.130 one thing. And therefore, like, I'm out. I'm not going 0:19:42.150 --> 0:19:44.570 to not agree. That's how you like. That's the will 0:19:44.609 --> 0:19:47.530 to lose, which I'm afraid we do have on our side. 0:19:48.390 --> 0:19:51.660 Yeah, I do really feel that. I feel that we've 0:19:51.700 --> 0:19:57.619 lost the ability to understand that, metaphorically, let's say everybody 0:19:57.660 --> 0:20:00.040 has a list of 10 priorities. Not everybody's 10 are 0:20:00.060 --> 0:20:01.540 going to be in the same order, and that has 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:08.200 to be okay. You know, we... It's like... we're debating 0:20:08.260 --> 0:20:11.680 what order our priorities sit in on said list while 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:16.139 they're literally fleecing the government, you know, and they've launched 0:20:16.180 --> 0:20:21.320 a paramilitary force and we're backsliding into, you know, becoming 0:20:21.340 --> 0:20:24.940 a country that looks more like Russia than America. You 0:20:25.010 --> 0:20:28.669 warned about a lot of these things when you published 0:20:28.750 --> 0:20:30.890 on Tyranny. I have my copy here, like a real, 0:20:30.950 --> 0:20:35.530 like the real true fangirl that I am in February 0:20:35.550 --> 0:20:39.430 of 2017. And one of the things I love about 0:20:39.550 --> 0:20:43.250 the book, frankly, for people at home who can't see it, 0:20:43.369 --> 0:20:46.710 it's tiny and it's adorable. Also, the typeface is great. 0:20:47.369 --> 0:20:50.980 And as a person who appreciates design, whomever did this 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.220 with you did an excellent job. What I like about 0:20:55.300 --> 0:21:00.500 it is that you clearly have so much deep knowledge. 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.179 But in this book, you gave us 20 lessons that 0:21:04.220 --> 0:21:08.120 are really structured like a citizen's checklist. They move from 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:13.000 the personal to the civic and they truly, they feel 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:18.139 digestible and they don't feel like so many of the 0:21:18.180 --> 0:21:20.740 conversations I think about the current political landscape, which can 0:21:20.780 --> 0:21:23.640 feel so big and so overwhelming. This is something each 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:28.260 of us can understand and do. I'm curious, you know, 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.639 I mean, I don't think I have to have a 0:21:30.660 --> 0:21:33.220 crystal ball to figure out why a year after 2016 0:21:33.220 --> 0:21:35.280 might've felt like the time to put this checklist out there. 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.770 Reading it now, it feels eerily prophetic because we're halfway 0:21:40.790 --> 0:21:44.990 through the Tyranny Playbook. How do you feel about it, 0:21:45.490 --> 0:21:49.790 you know, 10 years since publication? Is it something you 0:21:49.830 --> 0:21:52.550 want people to revisit? Do you think the denial of 0:21:52.609 --> 0:21:54.250 what's in here is part of the reasons we're in 0:21:54.270 --> 0:21:54.810 this mess? 0:21:56.270 --> 0:21:57.870 The way I feel about it is that I'm happy 0:21:57.890 --> 0:22:00.350 that it's helped people do things. Like you were saying 0:22:00.369 --> 0:22:03.330 at the very beginning, it's... It's a book that's just 0:22:03.350 --> 0:22:05.130 meant to enable people to do things. It's a book 0:22:05.150 --> 0:22:10.109 which is meant to help people translate the anxiety and 0:22:10.130 --> 0:22:13.889 the worry or even the hopelessness and the despair into action. 0:22:15.150 --> 0:22:18.810 That's what it's meant to do. And I wrote it 0:22:18.850 --> 0:22:22.820 for Americans. I mean, I wrote the list right after 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.280 Trump won the first time. And then I fleshed out 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.609 the list real quick and and Tim Dugan, who was 0:22:30.630 --> 0:22:33.360 then my editor, and the good people at Crown Books 0:22:33.380 --> 0:22:35.100 were able to put it out in a few weeks, 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:39.939 which is kind of extraordinary. But I did it because 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.880 I thought Americans are going to think that this can't 0:22:43.900 --> 0:22:47.600 happen here, which is true. That's what Americans think. And 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:49.880 if you think it can't happen here, then when it happens, 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.260 you don't recognize that it's happening because you've already decided 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.179 that it isn't it. And I thought Americans were going 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.820 to say, well, We have special institutions that are going 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:01.100 to save us. No, they aren't on their own. You know, 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.400 you have to take their side. So I was trying 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.040 to head off certain American reactions to Trump and, and, 0:23:07.180 --> 0:23:09.899 and take, you know, cause either people are afraid or 0:23:09.940 --> 0:23:13.060 they normalize or both. And I was trying to prevent that, 0:23:13.220 --> 0:23:15.380 but not just tell people they're wrong, but to give 0:23:15.420 --> 0:23:18.410 people a way to act. And what you said earlier 0:23:18.430 --> 0:23:21.929 is so important. It's, it's not on each of us 0:23:21.970 --> 0:23:25.050 to do everything. it's just on each of us to 0:23:25.090 --> 0:23:28.470 do something. And if each of us does something, it 0:23:28.550 --> 0:23:31.030 really will be okay. Like we're a long way from 0:23:31.070 --> 0:23:32.580 each of us doing something, but if each of us 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.500 does something, it really is going to be okay. Especially 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.980 if each of us does something with other people and 0:23:39.420 --> 0:23:42.280 in a regular way. So I feel good about the 0:23:42.300 --> 0:23:45.919 book because it's helped other people do things, not only 0:23:45.940 --> 0:23:48.220 in this country, but it turned out strangely all around 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:52.199 the world, including countries where I learned things like Ukraine 0:23:52.270 --> 0:23:55.340 and Poland and places where I draw on experience, it 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.080 turned out to be useful in those countries too. So 0:23:57.100 --> 0:23:59.680 that's been really gratifying. And it's, it's, yeah, it's been 0:23:59.700 --> 0:24:03.000 really gratifying. So, and people keep reading it. That's the thing. 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.080 Like people keep discovering it. You know, you said like 0:24:07.010 --> 0:24:09.369 every day I hear from people who have just discovered 0:24:09.390 --> 0:24:11.210 it for the first time. Like I wrote it yesterday 0:24:11.290 --> 0:24:13.869 and that makes me happy too, because if it still 0:24:13.950 --> 0:24:15.870 sounds fresh, that that's good. 0:24:16.550 --> 0:24:20.020 Yeah. Yeah. I really think that it is. And I 0:24:20.260 --> 0:24:23.830 think every lesson in the book can be applied to 0:24:23.930 --> 0:24:27.550 everyday life and work and community, I am curious because 0:24:27.609 --> 0:24:31.010 one of the first instructions is do not obey in advance, 0:24:31.530 --> 0:24:35.209 which is so important. You know, you've seen news organizations 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.540 and Apple and Meta, they bent the knee in advance, 0:24:37.820 --> 0:24:40.300 which tells a tyrant that they're going to get their 0:24:40.340 --> 0:24:44.330 way just based on a threat. For most of us, 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.940 Or perhaps most of our neighbors who, to your point, 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:52.640 might have believed for a long time, oh, it can't 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:58.399 happen here. You know, America could never become an authoritarian country. 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:03.840 As authoritarianism is seeping into every single piece of our life, 0:25:04.830 --> 0:25:08.650 how do you help people wake up to what's already happened, 0:25:08.670 --> 0:25:13.109 that it is happening here, so they understand not to obey, 0:25:13.130 --> 0:25:18.350 so they know how to take these lessons and begin 0:25:18.450 --> 0:25:21.990 them immediately if they haven't already. You know, that's one 0:25:22.010 --> 0:25:24.490 of the things I wonder about is how do you 0:25:24.550 --> 0:25:29.270 help people see what's really happening when it's a lot 0:25:29.490 --> 0:25:31.970 safer as a human to be in denial? 0:25:32.510 --> 0:25:35.720 Yeah, it's a really, really well-formed question because it seems 0:25:35.780 --> 0:25:38.440 safer to be in denial. And maybe it is for 0:25:38.460 --> 0:25:41.300 a while. And then it's a lot less safe. 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:41.660 All of a sudden. 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:43.959 It's a lot less safe because of the world you've 0:25:43.980 --> 0:25:46.910 helped create, you know, by... the things that are going 0:25:47.010 --> 0:25:52.580 on around you. In the book, the device was to 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:57.440 look at moments that people were familiar with or somewhat 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:01.360 familiar with maybe like Nazi Germany or the Stalinist Soviet 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.310 Union and say, oh, well, this is how it worked there. 0:26:05.050 --> 0:26:08.810 And maybe you'll find just the slightest resemblance in something 0:26:08.830 --> 0:26:12.850 that you might see over here without telling people that 0:26:12.869 --> 0:26:16.640 it's the same, but just noting certain tactics like, taking 0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:24.560 advantage of terrorism. It's a completely predictable gambit, not just 0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:27.320 from those regimes, but for all authoritarian regimes, real or 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:31.570 fake terrorism. It's something which happens. And then taking advantage 0:26:31.609 --> 0:26:34.670 of the language around terrorism, calling people extremists or calling 0:26:34.690 --> 0:26:38.090 people terrorists, it's very familiar behavior in other places. And 0:26:38.130 --> 0:26:41.890 if you know it's familiar from other places, then maybe 0:26:41.910 --> 0:26:44.909 when you hear it in your own country, you'll hear 0:26:44.930 --> 0:26:48.290 the significance of it. As well, and you won't normalize it. 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:52.480 So using other experiences in time and places is one way. 0:26:52.500 --> 0:26:55.350 And another way is just to try to, you know, 0:26:55.369 --> 0:26:58.810 to catch when people are, there are moments when people 0:26:58.890 --> 0:27:03.070 recognize that something's wrong, but they don't know what it is. 0:27:03.390 --> 0:27:07.990 And the key is getting people to act because once 0:27:08.010 --> 0:27:12.540 you start acting, then you start understanding differently as well. Right. 0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:15.110 And so like the tyranny, I'm trying to give people 0:27:15.150 --> 0:27:18.590 little things you can do, like, okay, pick an institution 0:27:18.650 --> 0:27:21.370 and support it, or just take a cause and donate 0:27:21.410 --> 0:27:26.010 a little bit of money to it. Support journalism, like 0:27:26.030 --> 0:27:28.469 just do one little thing, because as soon as you 0:27:28.510 --> 0:27:31.320 do one little thing, then your position in the world changes, 0:27:31.359 --> 0:27:33.740 like your angle on everything changes, and you see things 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.420 in a different way. And you may see more, that's 0:27:36.540 --> 0:27:38.600 you may see more that's frightening, but you will certainly 0:27:38.660 --> 0:27:41.859 see more that's hopeful. Because when you're doing something, then 0:27:42.260 --> 0:27:45.100 you realize, okay, I have a little power to change things. 0:27:45.420 --> 0:27:47.899 And then you meet other people who are changing things too. 0:27:48.580 --> 0:27:52.220 And then the whole emotional geometry of the thing alters. 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:55.740 So that's part of it. You just can't really do knowledge. 0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:58.129 I mean, more and more I think about this. You 0:27:58.170 --> 0:28:02.350 can't really do knowledge without action. I do give lectures 0:28:02.390 --> 0:28:04.730 and I do try to teach people what's happening. And 0:28:04.750 --> 0:28:08.109 I just had a whole course called Hitler and Stalin Today. 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:11.720 which was released this summer. It's been released to the 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:15.260 public for free. And so I do like try to 0:28:15.460 --> 0:28:21.369 teach directly, but as my organizer self says, the moment 0:28:21.410 --> 0:28:23.230 you start to do things is the moment you start 0:28:23.270 --> 0:28:25.330 to understand things better. And so the key moment is 0:28:25.350 --> 0:28:27.619 to like persuade people to actually do a little thing. 0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:37.070 Right. And now for our sponsors. That feels like the 0:28:37.369 --> 0:28:43.490 energy in the latest book and on freedom. You gave 0:28:43.570 --> 0:28:47.570 us the guidebook and on tyranny for what a dangerous 0:28:47.610 --> 0:28:53.570 society looks like and ways to survive it. And on freedom, 0:28:53.690 --> 0:28:58.450 you ask, what does a genuinely free society look like? 0:28:59.210 --> 0:29:04.250 And I'm curious, two years since that publication, what does 0:29:04.310 --> 0:29:07.600 a genuine... freedom look like in the world today? 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:11.940 Yeah. It was a hard book to write because those 0:29:11.980 --> 0:29:17.940 are hard questions to answer. I believe there are right 0:29:18.050 --> 0:29:24.490 answers to those questions. I don't think it's just a 0:29:24.530 --> 0:29:26.930 matter of opinion. I think the idea of freedom is 0:29:26.970 --> 0:29:31.590 very close to what we are as creatures. I think freedom, 0:29:31.970 --> 0:29:36.970 contrary to what maybe most Americans would think, it sits 0:29:37.050 --> 0:29:39.970 very close to empathy and it sits very close to love. 0:29:40.060 --> 0:29:46.360 So to be free requires you to have the assistance 0:29:46.380 --> 0:29:49.080 of other people, right? You have to have, you know, 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:52.240 parents or people who love you or friends. And then 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:54.000 from there, you have to have institutions, you have to 0:29:54.020 --> 0:29:57.000 have schools, you have to have things around you that 0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:58.900 support you, that do all those things like, you know, 0:29:58.940 --> 0:30:01.130 that Like we were talking about before, you can't make 0:30:01.150 --> 0:30:03.560 your own factuality. You can't make your own water. Like 0:30:03.580 --> 0:30:06.160 there have to be institutions which start from empathy and 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:09.300 love and then move out to providing for your ability 0:30:09.340 --> 0:30:11.220 to learn and your ability to be in the world. 0:30:11.820 --> 0:30:15.520 Because despite what we think, none of us does this alone, right? 0:30:15.580 --> 0:30:17.350 None of us built the sidewalks. None of us built 0:30:17.380 --> 0:30:19.730 the roads. None of us built the universities. None of 0:30:19.770 --> 0:30:22.270 us built the schools. This was all done together. And 0:30:23.430 --> 0:30:27.890 it's important for me to think of those structures as 0:30:27.930 --> 0:30:30.690 part of freedom. that freedom is generational work that we 0:30:30.730 --> 0:30:33.070 do together. So if we build a healthcare system, then 0:30:33.090 --> 0:30:36.410 we're all less worried and we're all more free. But 0:30:36.450 --> 0:30:38.190 you can't build a healthcare system and I can't build 0:30:38.210 --> 0:30:40.810 a healthcare system. A country can do it. However, other 0:30:40.850 --> 0:30:42.580 countries do it. The country I'm in right now has 0:30:42.620 --> 0:30:45.220 done it. And as a result, I'm sorry to say 0:30:45.340 --> 0:30:48.620 Canadians in a very important respect are more free than Americans. 0:30:48.780 --> 0:30:51.320 If you're not worried about paying your doctor's bill, you 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:53.640 are a lot more free. If you know you can 0:30:53.660 --> 0:30:55.840 walk into the hospital when you're sick, you're just a 0:30:55.940 --> 0:31:00.020 lot more free than if you can't. And so these 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:03.540 things we do together, like schools, they make us more free. 0:31:03.980 --> 0:31:08.280 And so freedom, it starts from recognizing that we can't 0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:12.600 be free as individuals unless we do things together as people. 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:14.800 But it sits closer to empathy and love than that 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.790 because freedom, like in order to be a free person, 0:31:18.750 --> 0:31:23.330 you have to understand yourself. You have to understand yourself. 0:31:23.370 --> 0:31:24.870 You have to be able to listen to other people. 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:25.880 Right. 0:31:25.940 --> 0:31:29.410 So I have to be able to listen to you. Right. 0:31:29.650 --> 0:31:32.050 And you have to listen to me because there are 0:31:32.070 --> 0:31:33.610 things that I see about you that you don't see 0:31:33.650 --> 0:31:35.470 and things that you see about me that I don't see. 0:31:35.570 --> 0:31:35.750 Right. 0:31:35.810 --> 0:31:37.610 And that's just true. It's just true of the world. 0:31:37.670 --> 0:31:40.290 It's the way we are. But and so if I'm 0:31:40.310 --> 0:31:42.170 going to be a free person, I have to understand myself. 0:31:42.270 --> 0:31:44.530 If I'm a victim of my own illusions, I'm not free. 0:31:44.590 --> 0:31:46.110 And only other people can help me with that, which 0:31:46.150 --> 0:31:47.450 means I have to listen to them, which means I 0:31:47.450 --> 0:31:49.420 have to recognize them as other people. 0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:49.820 Right. 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:53.390 That recognizing you as a person. Everyone else is a person. 0:31:53.410 --> 0:31:55.840 It's a step towards me being free. Can't do without it. 0:31:56.410 --> 0:32:01.480 Why do you think our relationship with what generations have 0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:05.460 built collaboratively is so fractured right now? It seems like 0:32:05.500 --> 0:32:08.660 people don't even realize that, you know, a streetlight or 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:13.700 a sidewalk is technically given their definition today. Ooh, scary. Socialism. 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:16.030 It's like, those are your tax dollars at work, guys. 0:32:16.070 --> 0:32:19.190 Come on. And it's become like a boogeyman. And I 0:32:19.450 --> 0:32:21.970 don't get it. Yeah. 0:32:22.980 --> 0:32:24.740 Okay. I'm not sure I got a good one for that, 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:27.580 but I mean, at the level of humans, one of 0:32:27.660 --> 0:32:30.830 our basic flaws is our incredible capacity to take things 0:32:30.870 --> 0:32:33.270 for granted. So I think of like an alien species 0:32:33.290 --> 0:32:34.830 that were looking at us and trying to list the 0:32:34.870 --> 0:32:37.410 things that are weird about us. That would be one 0:32:37.430 --> 0:32:40.650 of them. Like we really take things for granted. We like, 0:32:40.990 --> 0:32:43.100 like something can be new and wonderful one day and 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:45.580 the next day it's just part of the landscape, right? 0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:48.620 Streetlights are an example. It didn't used to be streetlights 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:52.630 is pretty recent thing. Um, you know, 100, 120, 130 0:32:52.630 --> 0:32:54.830 years or so. But that, you know, take for granted 0:32:54.850 --> 0:32:56.810 that their streetlights, take for granted their roads. We take 0:32:56.830 --> 0:32:59.750 for granted these things exist, but humans had to build them. 0:33:00.230 --> 0:33:04.640 People organizing and thinking and very often struggling against those 0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:06.140 who had wealth and who thought that they could do 0:33:06.160 --> 0:33:09.240 all this on their own. So yeah, I mean, part 0:33:09.260 --> 0:33:11.960 of it is just this human tragic weakness of taking 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.680 stuff for granted. I think another part of it now 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:18.120 is that people spend so much time online, and I 0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:20.719 don't want to push this point too far, but the 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:23.920 world that's built online doesn't require all the stuff you're 0:33:23.940 --> 0:33:26.720 talking about. I mean, it does deeply, right? Like it 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:30.240 does huge, huge amounts, uses huge amounts of electricity and 0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:32.760 water and so on at some level, but you go, 0:33:32.780 --> 0:33:36.420 you know, you're the, the, the online world can suggest 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:38.760 to you that maybe this, you know, this out here 0:33:38.860 --> 0:33:41.400 is not, doesn't require all that much work when in 0:33:41.610 --> 0:33:43.710 fact it does. I think that's a big part of it. 0:33:43.790 --> 0:33:45.150 You know, I mean, not to, not to found like 0:33:45.210 --> 0:33:47.430 a sound like a, you know, I was going to 0:33:47.450 --> 0:33:51.100 say paleolithic, but like not to sound super conservative, but 0:33:51.780 --> 0:33:54.760 if you never have actually taken part in constructing anything, 0:33:54.900 --> 0:33:58.520 then the notion of goodwill yourself seems it's abstract and 0:33:58.540 --> 0:34:03.840 therefore it's possible. It's like totally, it's totally impossible. But 0:34:03.860 --> 0:34:05.240 I think a lot of it, honestly, going back to 0:34:05.260 --> 0:34:06.900 what you're saying is a scam. Like a lot of 0:34:06.940 --> 0:34:10.790 it's just a scam. The people who have everything can reap, 0:34:10.870 --> 0:34:13.830 you know, what can reproduce all this stuff for themselves. 0:34:13.870 --> 0:34:17.029 So they think they can, And therefore, they like for 0:34:17.070 --> 0:34:19.150 all of us to believe that it's not necessary. And 0:34:19.170 --> 0:34:21.189 I think a lot of it's just as simple as that, right? 0:34:21.290 --> 0:34:21.549 And when. 0:34:23.030 --> 0:34:27.590 They do that, they make us more isolated, more lonely, 0:34:28.030 --> 0:34:30.750 and less capable of organizing, less capable of seeing the 0:34:30.790 --> 0:34:32.650 point of organizing. So I think some of it is 0:34:32.690 --> 0:34:34.609 just as simple as that. It's like it's their interest. 0:34:35.010 --> 0:34:37.279 It's going to be the natural interest of people who 0:34:37.420 --> 0:34:40.080 have everything already to suggest that the rest of us 0:34:40.100 --> 0:34:40.840 should have nothing. 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:45.960 Yes. Yes. Well, and to your point, it's not only 0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:48.280 do humans have a tendency to take things for granted, 0:34:48.780 --> 0:34:51.930 our lizard brains want to hoard resources because we think 0:34:52.030 --> 0:34:55.670 we're never going to survive despite living in a modern world. 0:34:55.950 --> 0:34:58.549 And the only reason people aren't surviving is because the 0:34:58.590 --> 0:35:02.230 people at the top aren't sharing or paying into the 0:35:02.270 --> 0:35:06.350 system in the ways they should. I'm curious, when you 0:35:06.370 --> 0:35:08.270 think about it like that, at least when I start 0:35:08.469 --> 0:35:10.450 reflecting on those points, I start to feel a bit 0:35:10.530 --> 0:35:14.850 overwhelmed because the problems feel really large. And you mentioned earlier, 0:35:16.010 --> 0:35:19.130 what history has to teach us about how much power 0:35:19.270 --> 0:35:23.220 ordinary people actually have, how if everyone gets involved in something, 0:35:23.260 --> 0:35:26.480 you do something in your municipality, you know, you, you 0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:31.339 make one issue, your issue, you can change things. I'm 0:35:31.380 --> 0:35:35.879 curious how you tailor that point or, or through that 0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:39.490 point would offer advice to listeners about the approaching midterms. 0:35:40.930 --> 0:35:43.609 Yeah, no, thanks for bringing it to a point like that. 0:35:44.340 --> 0:35:47.969 And it does, it does actually connect, right? Because government 0:35:48.810 --> 0:35:52.950 is a government's actually a good thing. Yeah. Government's actually 0:35:52.969 --> 0:35:55.489 a good thing. If you've, if you've ever seen the alternative, 0:35:55.930 --> 0:35:59.340 I mean, you know, the, the, the, the wasteland of 0:35:59.380 --> 0:36:02.800 oligarchy is just much worse than a government and a 0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:07.640 government that's functional and is orderly and, and works according 0:36:07.660 --> 0:36:10.040 to the rule of law is just actually a very 0:36:10.100 --> 0:36:14.000 good thing. And social democracy is, and roads and streetlights 0:36:14.020 --> 0:36:16.420 and all that stuff, it's really so much better than 0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:23.350 the alternative. And it's sad watching those things decay, but 0:36:23.370 --> 0:36:25.730 it's important to know that they can all be built. 0:36:25.890 --> 0:36:29.270 I mean, that's what government is for. And having the 0:36:29.310 --> 0:36:30.850 kind of government that we have now is a big 0:36:30.890 --> 0:36:33.850 advance in human history. And anybody who's telling you you 0:36:33.870 --> 0:36:35.750 don't need government or the government can be thrown away 0:36:35.790 --> 0:36:37.810 or the government's in the way of your freedom automatically 0:36:37.830 --> 0:36:40.299 is One should be very suspicious of that because we 0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:43.940 all need good government, but we all need some government. 0:36:44.040 --> 0:36:46.070 And the people who want to break government are the 0:36:46.110 --> 0:36:49.390 people who want to remake it, but for themselves, with themselves. 0:36:50.670 --> 0:36:53.090 And I'm connecting this to the midterms just because if 0:36:53.110 --> 0:36:55.630 we're going to get back to some kind of notion 0:36:55.670 --> 0:36:58.739 of government for the people, of the people, by the people, 0:36:59.280 --> 0:37:01.779 it's going to have to start with a pretty dramatic 0:37:01.860 --> 0:37:06.739 event in November. And It's up to us to make 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:10.100 it seem dramatic because I believe the Democrats are going 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:11.440 to win by a lot. There's a lot to be 0:37:11.460 --> 0:37:14.160 said about this. There will be stunts. There will be moments. 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:16.320 Trump's going to try to frighten us with something or another. 0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:18.899 It won't be fair. It'll be an uphill climb, all 0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:21.020 of that. But I do think the Democrats are going 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:24.489 to win by a lot. And the question is, first, 0:37:24.510 --> 0:37:29.610 how to make sure they do, which is to vote, organize, 0:37:30.770 --> 0:37:33.569 support candidates with your money if you can, with your 0:37:33.610 --> 0:37:37.130 time if you can. to find races that are close 0:37:37.190 --> 0:37:39.770 in your state or in other states, to adopt, to 0:37:40.030 --> 0:37:44.410 support organizations that are working for electoral fairness, all of that. 0:37:44.650 --> 0:37:46.670 And it does make a difference. Like the crucial thing 0:37:46.690 --> 0:37:49.370 is to know that it does make a difference because yeah, 0:37:49.489 --> 0:37:52.529 it's like, it's uphill. Like I'm just back from a run. 0:37:52.570 --> 0:37:54.109 I hope that doesn't show on your show, but like, 0:37:54.690 --> 0:37:58.169 I'm just back from running. Like sometimes you're running uphill, right? 0:37:58.350 --> 0:38:00.300 But you can get up the hill. Like it's a hill. 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:00.530 Yeah. 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:02.920 And it's a real thing, but you can get up 0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:06.219 the hill and competitive authoritarian. That's the technical term for 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:08.360 where we are. Competitive authoritarian elections are like that, like 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:10.689 you're going uphill, but you can get up the hill. 0:38:10.890 --> 0:38:12.529 You just have to know it's a hill and know 0:38:12.550 --> 0:38:13.710 what you have to do to get up the hill. 0:38:14.469 --> 0:38:17.689 So we have to kind of pull the Democrats along. 0:38:18.630 --> 0:38:22.029 We being people who march and organize and who want 0:38:22.130 --> 0:38:24.850 a lot from the future. We being labor unions. We 0:38:24.870 --> 0:38:28.970 being other organizations. We being a big coalition, which includes 0:38:28.989 --> 0:38:31.759 the Democratic Party, but which isn't just the Democratic Party. 0:38:31.780 --> 0:38:35.420 So we cannot, I mean, and I say this with 0:38:35.460 --> 0:38:38.560 love towards them, but you can't count on the Democrats 0:38:39.100 --> 0:38:42.100 to save you. They have to win, but they have 0:38:42.140 --> 0:38:44.420 to be pulled along to winning. And then they have 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:47.080 to know when they've won. that they won for a purpose. 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.000 And the purpose was to start transformation, right? 0:38:50.780 --> 0:38:53.700 Yeah. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's 0:38:53.719 --> 0:39:00.820 a word from our sponsors. I try to give advice 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:04.910 to young people, especially, you know, about political engagement. Cause 0:39:04.930 --> 0:39:07.370 people will say to me sometimes, you know, you're, Like 0:39:07.390 --> 0:39:09.210 you make movies and TV shows. Why do you care 0:39:09.250 --> 0:39:12.780 so much about politics? Because this is the very fabric 0:39:12.820 --> 0:39:16.219 of our society. And I understand it might sound like 0:39:16.260 --> 0:39:18.460 a pain in the ass, but actually I think it's 0:39:18.500 --> 0:39:23.810 a privilege. You get someone elected and then you got 0:39:23.830 --> 0:39:25.790 to hold them accountable. They have to hear from you. 0:39:25.870 --> 0:39:28.730 They have to know what you want. Because our government 0:39:28.890 --> 0:39:31.830 only works if we... work it. And I think if 0:39:31.870 --> 0:39:34.710 we start to think about government more in the sense 0:39:34.750 --> 0:39:38.150 of it being a verb, It has to be worked. 0:39:38.690 --> 0:39:41.700 It has to be active. And for a very long time, 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:44.320 it's really been left to the people, to your point, 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:46.980 who have figured out how to get in it and 0:39:47.140 --> 0:39:49.640 use it as a taking machine instead of as a 0:39:49.700 --> 0:39:53.270 societal good machine. And we have to take that power 0:39:53.310 --> 0:39:55.390 back now. Yeah. 0:39:55.910 --> 0:39:58.330 And I mean, that is connected to money and that 0:39:58.390 --> 0:40:02.070 is connected to what one has to do before, during, 0:40:02.090 --> 0:40:04.779 and after these elections, right? The Democrats have to be 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:07.020 the party which says, hey, we're going to drain the 0:40:07.060 --> 0:40:08.320 money from elections. 0:40:09.020 --> 0:40:12.799 Yeah. Oh, yeah. We got to overturn Citizens United. We 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:16.229 have to make elections fair and equal. Yeah. 0:40:16.250 --> 0:40:19.690 I mean, because it's like the super like the idea 0:40:19.730 --> 0:40:22.510 that the like the founding fathers for all their flaws 0:40:22.550 --> 0:40:23.930 woke up in the morning and said, you know, a 0:40:24.090 --> 0:40:26.049 thing that would be really great would be a super PAC. 0:40:26.910 --> 0:40:30.049 You know, like these are these are things which we've 0:40:30.090 --> 0:40:33.370 contorted ourselves into somehow thinking that this has something to 0:40:33.430 --> 0:40:35.850 do with freedom of speech or whatever. But it isn't. 0:40:35.969 --> 0:40:38.170 And you don't have any amount of common sense will 0:40:38.210 --> 0:40:41.050 tell you that if you want to have an election, 0:40:41.890 --> 0:40:44.810 you have to keep the money away from it. And 0:40:45.210 --> 0:40:48.149 the Greeks knew that everybody knows that. Like that's like 0:40:48.270 --> 0:40:52.870 that's been just common currency, basic political knowledge. You know, 0:40:52.890 --> 0:40:54.850 since there's been politics, you have to keep the money 0:40:54.910 --> 0:40:56.770 out of it. And the Democrats have to be that 0:40:56.830 --> 0:41:00.270 party because people think that the whole system is corrupt 0:41:00.430 --> 0:41:04.089 and they're right. And they may think now correctly that 0:41:04.110 --> 0:41:06.850 Trump is more corrupt. But if the Democrats don't find 0:41:06.890 --> 0:41:09.109 a way to make themselves stand out on this issue, 0:41:09.130 --> 0:41:10.629 because you can't just say, oh, yeah, Trump was very 0:41:10.670 --> 0:41:12.490 bad and we're not that bad. You know, it can't 0:41:12.510 --> 0:41:15.680 be like that. We're going to clear this all out. 0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:18.460 And that starts with the elections. But it also includes 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:22.439 prosecuting people who have made money illicitly in the first 0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:25.489 part of the Trump administration. A rule of law is 0:41:25.550 --> 0:41:27.790 not a thing which walks down the street on its own, 0:41:28.070 --> 0:41:30.350 you know, in overalls and a straw cap. Like the 0:41:30.390 --> 0:41:32.330 rule of law is something that you make. You have 0:41:32.370 --> 0:41:34.469 to make the rule of law by performing it, by 0:41:34.530 --> 0:41:38.030 doing it. So the Democrats have to do those things afterwards, 0:41:38.210 --> 0:41:40.910 but they're not going to do them unless it's made 0:41:40.989 --> 0:41:43.100 clear to them that this is why they won. Right. 0:41:43.140 --> 0:41:47.400 That the anger of the people has to turn into legislation. 0:41:47.420 --> 0:41:53.150 Turn into investigations. And the thing is, if we could 0:41:53.170 --> 0:41:54.870 get the money out of politics, a lot of the 0:41:54.950 --> 0:41:57.930 other stuff would then actually kind of solve itself. Yes. 0:41:57.950 --> 0:42:01.540 Because most people want better schools. Most people want better 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:04.259 health care. Most people want better roads. Most people want 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:06.160 the rich to pay taxes and so on and so on. 0:42:06.460 --> 0:42:09.260 If you get the money out, then the whole balance 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:10.899 changes and good things start to. 0:42:10.860 --> 0:42:15.489 Get voted on. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I think so 0:42:15.530 --> 0:42:17.770 many people probably feel the way I do in this moment. 0:42:17.810 --> 0:42:20.070 They're like, they're listening to this. They're listening to your points. 0:42:20.110 --> 0:42:23.500 They're nodding their heads. They're feeling like, yes, that's got 0:42:23.520 --> 0:42:27.520 to be the way forward. For folks whose next feeling 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:30.540 though is, but what do I do today? Where do 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:35.440 I start? What are the first steps sort of universally 0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:39.259 that you would suggest for listeners? Mm-hmm. 0:42:40.280 --> 0:42:43.400 I mean, in the broad sense, it's the first lesson 0:42:43.420 --> 0:42:45.299 of the book, which is in a way what we've 0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:48.100 been doing the whole conversation, the first lesson, don't obey 0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:51.219 in advance, which means know who you are and what 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:54.700 you care about. Because don't be the normal that they 0:42:54.739 --> 0:42:56.900 want you to be. Be the normal that's normal for you. 0:42:57.300 --> 0:43:00.220 And that's the first step. And from that, everything else follows. 0:43:00.620 --> 0:43:03.279 Being able to say, okay, this is not normal. This 0:43:03.340 --> 0:43:06.830 is not okay. My normal, my sense of what's just, 0:43:06.870 --> 0:43:09.350 what's right, what's beautiful, what's fair, I'm going to stick 0:43:09.410 --> 0:43:12.650 to that. And from there, you know, then once you 0:43:12.670 --> 0:43:14.990 can do that, a lot of other things aren't so hard. 0:43:15.730 --> 0:43:18.830 And what I want to stress is that it's not, yeah. 0:43:18.910 --> 0:43:21.710 I mean, as we were saying before, it's not a 0:43:21.770 --> 0:43:25.150 superhero movie. Like it's really not about realizing you have 0:43:25.190 --> 0:43:27.450 superpowers and you can fly and like, then you could like, 0:43:27.489 --> 0:43:30.230 you know, get yourself in superhero pose and like beat. 0:43:30.290 --> 0:43:34.030 That's not what it's about. That's actually a disempowering fantasy 0:43:34.050 --> 0:43:38.780 that we have. It's really about doing something where you 0:43:38.840 --> 0:43:42.279 feel like, you know, something, where you can do it regularly, 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:46.370 where you meet new people. That's pretty much it. If 0:43:46.410 --> 0:43:49.250 you can meet those three criteria, you've got it. And 0:43:49.290 --> 0:43:51.790 it doesn't even have to be directly political. If it's 0:43:51.870 --> 0:43:53.810 cleaning up the park or if it's serving on the 0:43:53.850 --> 0:43:57.490 library committee, it doesn't really have to be directly political. 0:43:57.550 --> 0:44:00.180 It just has to involve getting out there in a 0:44:00.219 --> 0:44:02.420 sense that you're feeling a little bit awkward and you're 0:44:02.440 --> 0:44:03.950 making the world a little bit of a better place. 0:44:04.010 --> 0:44:07.009 Like that, if we all do that, it really is 0:44:07.030 --> 0:44:09.069 going to be okay. Feeling a little bit awkward, meeting 0:44:09.090 --> 0:44:11.550 new people, making the world a little bit better. That'll 0:44:11.570 --> 0:44:13.790 do it. That will really do the trick. Because for 0:44:13.850 --> 0:44:15.450 some of us, that will mean a lot. For some 0:44:15.469 --> 0:44:17.560 of us, it'll mean maybe a little bit less. But 0:44:18.100 --> 0:44:20.340 if we all do that little thing, that will do it. 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:23.250 And the reason I think that is that There's a 0:44:23.350 --> 0:44:26.190 mood shift thing that happens, which is that when you 0:44:26.210 --> 0:44:29.049 do the little things with other people, then you realize 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:32.780 I can do something. And then from that little something, 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:35.480 maybe there's another little something or maybe there's a bigger something. 0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:38.800 But it's the little something that makes you feel better 0:44:39.020 --> 0:44:41.940 and gives you some new friends. It's that little something, 0:44:42.340 --> 0:44:44.540 which is just the gate to everything else. 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:48.680 I love that. And you're right. It doesn't have to 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:52.299 feel so insurmountable. It can just be the next right step. Yeah. 0:44:53.010 --> 0:44:55.680 That's the thing. That's exactly it. It's a big country. 0:44:56.420 --> 0:44:59.759 It's a big world. There are hundreds of millions of us. 0:45:00.180 --> 0:45:00.920 And if. 0:45:03.180 --> 0:45:05.020 Many of us, it doesn't have to be, but many 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:08.220 of us do a little something, it's going to be okay. 0:45:09.300 --> 0:45:13.430 I'm curious for you personally. Obviously, you've had a big 0:45:13.469 --> 0:45:16.529 life shift. You've moved to Toronto. You've taken on this 0:45:16.570 --> 0:45:24.230 new professorship. It's a big... change in a life that 0:45:24.270 --> 0:45:29.380 you had built, whether it's geographic or professional or personal. 0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:31.600 I just wonder what right now feels like your work 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:34.680 in progress just for Tim. Hmm. 0:45:35.640 --> 0:45:38.930 I mean, it's so I've, I really enjoy being here. 0:45:39.050 --> 0:45:41.090 Like I, but it's not maybe as much of a 0:45:41.110 --> 0:45:44.530 change as it might seem because I work on other countries. 0:45:44.810 --> 0:45:48.390 And so I spent years abroad and I, you know, 0:45:48.430 --> 0:45:51.279 partly raised my kids in other countries and, and I 0:45:51.300 --> 0:45:55.399 know other languages. And so the whole, my whole adult life, 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:59.620 I've been living in various places. So the shift to Canada, 0:46:00.700 --> 0:46:04.450 like it wasn't being, it was, I, it's interesting, but 0:46:04.489 --> 0:46:07.790 it's interesting. Like living in another country is interesting. And 0:46:08.350 --> 0:46:10.549 by the way, it is maybe important for Americans to 0:46:11.070 --> 0:46:14.370 realize that Canada really is a very different country. Like 0:46:14.530 --> 0:46:17.310 Canadians are, Canadians are pretty good at like camouflaging when 0:46:17.330 --> 0:46:20.239 they need to, but, um, But Canada is a very 0:46:20.300 --> 0:46:22.700 different place. And like being in, you know, like being 0:46:22.739 --> 0:46:25.480 in Norway or Switzerland or whatever, you know, like being 0:46:25.500 --> 0:46:29.840 in Korea or Japan, you can learn things from other countries. Well, actually, 0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:32.180 you know, if the Canadians can have health care, why 0:46:32.200 --> 0:46:33.259 can't we have health care, right? 0:46:33.380 --> 0:46:34.279 I agree with that. 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:38.660 Publish, you know, long articles in newspapers. Why can't we 0:46:38.700 --> 0:46:41.420 still have long articles? They can have public media. Why 0:46:41.460 --> 0:46:45.040 can't we have public media? You know, so it's kind 0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:47.860 of helpful in that way. It helps me keep the 0:46:47.900 --> 0:46:50.850 volume down. Because I go to the U.S. all the 0:46:50.890 --> 0:46:53.270 time and I go to Ukraine pretty frequently. And like 0:46:53.310 --> 0:46:54.890 I'm going to the places that are important to me 0:46:54.930 --> 0:46:57.900 in terms of this democracy work. And it's loud, like 0:46:57.940 --> 0:47:00.340 in different ways. Like in Ukraine, it's kind of literally loud. 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:04.400 And in the U.S., it's like the level of emotion 0:47:04.580 --> 0:47:08.360 and like the ubiquity of media is loud. And it's 0:47:08.380 --> 0:47:10.450 not quite so loud up here. And that helps me 0:47:10.510 --> 0:47:12.049 sometimes to focus more. 0:47:13.550 --> 0:47:13.730 Yeah. 0:47:13.770 --> 0:47:15.230 But it's been, I mean, for me, it's been good. 0:47:15.370 --> 0:47:18.230 I really, I, I, I loved Yale and I, and 0:47:18.330 --> 0:47:20.770 I liked being in new Haven. Um, and there was like, 0:47:21.130 --> 0:47:23.210 there was nothing pushing me away from that place really. 0:47:23.770 --> 0:47:25.930 And I, but I, I'm, I'm really happy being in 0:47:25.950 --> 0:47:27.810 this big city and I'm in Toronto and I'm very 0:47:27.850 --> 0:47:30.669 happy at having the perspective that, that I've got here. 0:47:31.090 --> 0:47:32.910 But like, you know, you started this with a personal 0:47:32.969 --> 0:47:40.330 question and like, honestly, I, I wanted to go to 0:47:40.370 --> 0:47:45.980 more baseball games and the stadium is right downtown. And 0:47:46.020 --> 0:47:48.560 like going back to public services and freedom, I can 0:47:48.620 --> 0:47:51.120 get on the subway, which I did last night with 0:47:51.160 --> 0:47:53.100 a buddy. Like I can get on the subway and 0:47:53.140 --> 0:47:56.049 I can go to a game, you know, and that 0:47:56.090 --> 0:47:57.890 is actually something which is really terrific. 0:47:58.989 --> 0:48:03.010 Oh, that's so wonderful. Yeah. My lovely co-star Lauren Hawley 0:48:03.110 --> 0:48:06.360 is the world's biggest Jays fan. So I hope the 0:48:06.390 --> 0:48:08.700 two of you get to meet at a game at 0:48:08.739 --> 0:48:10.500 some point. Yeah, it's so fun.