1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: The FBI has for quite some time now assessed that 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: lab incident in Wuhan. We step back for a second. 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: You know, the FBI has folks, agents, professionals, analysts, virologists, microbiologists, etc. 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: Who focus specifically on the dangers of biological threats, which 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: include things like novel viruses like COVID and the concerns 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: that they're in the wrong hands some bad guys, hostile 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: nation state of terrorists, a criminal the threats that those 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: could pose. So here you're talking about a potential leak 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: from a Chinese government controlled lab that killed millions of Americans, 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: and that's precisely what that capability was designed for. I 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: should add that our work related to this continues, and 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: not a whole lot of details I can share that 14 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: aren't aren't classified. I will just make the observation that 15 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: the Chinese government seems to me, has been doing its 16 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: best to try to afford an obtusky the work here, 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: the work that we're doing, the work that are a 18 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: US government and closed foreign partners are doing, and that's 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: unfortunate for everybody. On this episode of News World, there 20 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: have been one point one million deaths in the US 21 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: due to the COVID nineteen pandemic and six point eight 22 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: million COVID deaths globally. But what were the origins of 23 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: this novel coronavirus? Did it jump from animal to human 24 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: as many epidemiologists who study coronavirus suspect or was a 25 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: release from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan, China. 26 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: The debate about where COVID originated has been going on 27 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 1: for several years, but just this week, the US Department 28 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: of Energy announced that they believe that COVID came from 29 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: a lab. The photo by of Investigation has agreed with 30 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: this theory with quote moderate confidence. Here to talk about 31 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: this topic, I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Dustin Carmack, 32 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: former chief of Staff to the Director of National Intelligence 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: during the Trump administration and currently a research fellow for Cybersecurity, 34 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: Intelligence and Emerging Technologies at the Heritage Foundation. Dustin, welcome, 35 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me in news world. It's 36 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: great to join you, sir. You know, the Energy Department 37 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: announced this week that they've concluded that an accidental laboratory 38 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: leak in China is the most likely cause of the 39 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: coronavirus pandemic. What I was struck by is they wouldn't 40 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: reveal what the quote new intelligence was that led them 41 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: to this conclusion. But we understand that the FBI also 42 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: agrees with this theory. However, there are four other intelligence agencies, 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: the National Intelligence Council, who have concluded with quote low 44 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: confidence that the virus most likely immerged through natural transmission, 45 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: that is, animal to man. Can you talk about this 46 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 1: whole process of you have all these agencies and now 47 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: they can't get to an agreement. Well, it's kind of 48 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: part for the course, you know, trying to get a 49 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: lot of very smart people with very conflicting different parts 50 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: of the intelligence community together to agree upon anything has 51 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: historically been difficult, and at times some people haven't e 52 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: liked some of the things that they've come to a 53 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: consensus on as well. But that being said, each one 54 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: of them contain really narrow focused areas. Of course, you 55 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: have kind of what I like to say, your big dogs. 56 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: Of course, you have your cias on the human intelligence 57 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: and some other capabilities in essay with exquisite signals intelligence. 58 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: But the Department of Energy has an intelligence unit of 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: one of the eighteen agencies, same as the Bureau does 60 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: from a domestic in a bit of a foreign policy side, 61 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: and they maintain intricate lines of intelligence that as they 62 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: gleam things, their analysts take a look at it and say, hey, 63 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: this is moving this direction. And so I know my 64 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: previous boss, Director John Ratcliffe, he's been saying this for 65 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: two years now that there's not really been any kind 66 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: of further evidence from our time there that has shown 67 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: this to move towards the natural origins theory. If anything, 68 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: we're seeing these kind of breadcrumbs that we thought would 69 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: come over the course of time as new intelligence was 70 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: possibly gleamed, pushing towards the lab leak theory. And so 71 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: when we talk about low confidence or mid confidence, it 72 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: really kind of boils down to the number of sources 73 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: they have, the credibility of those sources. Maybe they want 74 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: to gleam additional information or verification, but the strong signal 75 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: in the fact that it's pushing this direction shows you 76 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: likely where I think this will go. And he and 77 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: I both agree that this was always going to be 78 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: the case. Well relatively possible to look at the actual 79 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: genome and from that conclude whether that would have evolved 80 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: in that form in nature or whether in fact it 81 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: had been engineered. That's correct. What they have used to 82 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: constentially kind of intersect into the genetic code of the 83 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: pathogen itself is something that they've really taken a deep 84 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: look at and said, this doesn't to an extent naturally 85 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: occur in a natural origin and they've not been able 86 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: to identify the wet market animal that could have been 87 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: the initial passer of this in terms of the natural 88 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: origin theory. So yeah, I mean the direction has always 89 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: kind of pointed in this and again the Wuhan Biology 90 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: Lab a level of five facility looking into this exact 91 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: type of science. Well, and apparently we had helped support 92 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: research that looked at an enhanced ability of a virus 93 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: to enter humans. That's correct. The Obama administration, to President 94 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: Obama's credit, I mean, he had actually pushed this kind 95 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: of gain a function. Research shouldn't be funded by US 96 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: taxpayer dollars. But the thing is with the federal government 97 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: is a lot of money trickles out via grants from 98 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: the wide diverse amount of agencies, and the oversight of 99 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: those dollars and where they go in this case, there 100 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: was dollars that went for this type of research through 101 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: third party organizations outside of the spectrum of NIH that 102 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: funded this gain of functional research, specifically at the Wuhan Lab. 103 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: Now went back and found an article the doctor f 104 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: Hou she had co authored in two thousand and eight 105 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: where it specifically said, this kind of research is so 106 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: dangerous it should only be done after great public discussion, 107 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: and the scientists have to recognize that other elements of 108 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: the community have invested interest in being part of that discussion, 109 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: and it can't just be done on a scientific basis. 110 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: And yet the very guy who wrote that apparently approved 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: funding using an indirect source. I mean, so the check 112 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: wasn't written from the US government, but has written from 113 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: the US government to a nonprofit which then wrote the 114 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: check to the Chinese. And apparently Fauci knew that that's correct. 115 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: But you have to kind of understand, I mean, the 116 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: devils in the details of the partners you're engaging with, 117 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: and there's been this kind of head in the sand view. 118 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of academic researchers, not just 119 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: in the biomedical space, but you look at artificial intelligence 120 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: and quantum have said we can't divest from essentially intellectual 121 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: exercises and research collaboration with the Chinese. But I think 122 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: in this case, of course, I think that's trending towards 123 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: a line where that was a bad choice from that end. 124 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: But also in other areas, if you're looking at artificial 125 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: intelligence or quantum or you name it, I don't think 126 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: the juice is worth the squeeze when it comes to 127 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: knowing the partner that essentially kind of a dual hat 128 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: authority to use that for their military purposes or for 129 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: the CCPs. Well, and if we're providing the money it 130 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: was says to me we should be able to have 131 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: a pretty clear ability to track and monitor. Well, we 132 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't give them the check absolutely, one hundred percent. I 133 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: mean that goes for a lot of things. I wish 134 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 1: we had tighter grips, And when it comes to federal government, 135 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: I think you see that in all kinds of debates 136 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: immigration in other areas where a lot of dollars getting 137 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: moved to NGO's with very little oversight. So I don't 138 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: think anybody doubts that the disease came from Wuhan. You 139 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: can argue whether it came from an animal market or 140 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: it came from the laboratory, but clearly, to the best 141 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: of my knowledge, nobody questions that it started in Wuhan. 142 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: That's correct. The Chinese have tried to kind of push back. 143 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: I mean, they've tried to accuse the United States that 144 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: it came from a US Army biolab for Dedrich, Maryland. 145 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: They've used disinformation campaigns to try to spread that in 146 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: other parts of the world that the US is behind that. 147 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: But no, the clear science and the knowledge of this 148 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: definitely pinpoints to the Wuhan region and that exact area 149 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: where this was initially reported in the caseloads. In that context, 150 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: those huge pushback to talking about as a Chinese virus 151 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons, and yet it's clearly as 152 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: a virus that came from China. Absolutely yeah, because that 153 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: everybody's been demagogued for two or three years to kind 154 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: of just point out even just basic questions of the 155 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: coincidence of those two running alongside each other. Shouldn't have 156 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: more questions, but everybody was kind of beat into submission 157 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: that asked this was somehow either racist rhetoric or an 158 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: unvalid question, and nobody's getting to make Hopa today, Senator 159 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: Cotton's not getting to make Hopa from being told he 160 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: was spending conspiracy theories With this kind of background, I'm curious, 161 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: why do you think it is so hard for our 162 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: leadership to sort of focus on China and say it 163 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: came from you. You clearly mishandled it for months. You 164 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: clearly lied to the world about it, and he can 165 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people have died because of Chinese mismanagement. 166 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interially that all those things are basically 167 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: profoundly true. I think a lot of it boils down 168 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: to things look at Barack Obama's red line quote when 169 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: it came into Syria chemical weapons. I think it's a 170 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: question for this administration of wanting it both ways. I 171 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: would imagine they have conflicting views across the administration of 172 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: how tough knows they want to be with the Chinese 173 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: while trying to match different rhetoric of hey, is this 174 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: just a strategic competition or do we need to treat 175 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: China as a true adversary going forward? And so this 176 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: question where one point one million Americans and millions around 177 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: the globe were killed by a virus that escaped from 178 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: a lab possibly in Wuhan, has major ramifications that you 179 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: have to consider as policymakers of what you're going to do, 180 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: and so I think that's why they're trying to play 181 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: it halfway well. I noticed that it's sent as the 182 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: Department of Energy came out and said that their labs 183 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: analysis led them to believe that, in fact, it did 184 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: come from the Chinese Communist lab, which I believe is 185 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: in fact includes a biological warfare component. That almost immediately 186 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: Jake Sullivan, Biden's National State Advisor, one on TV to 187 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: say there is a variety of views in the intelligence community. 188 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: Some elements of the intelligence community have reached conclusions on 189 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: one side, some on the other. A number of them 190 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: have said they just don't have enough information to be sure. 191 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: Here's what I can tell you. President Biden has directed 192 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: repeatedly every element of our intelligence community to put effort 193 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: and resources behind getting to the bottom of this question. 194 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: And one of the things in that Wall Street Journal report, 195 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: which I can't confirm or deny, but I will say 196 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: the reference to the Department of Energy. President Biden specifically 197 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: requested that the National Labs, which are part of the 198 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: Department of Energy, be brought into this assessment because he 199 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: wants to put every tool at use to be able 200 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: to figure out what happened here. And if we gain 201 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: any further insight or information, we will share it with 202 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: Congress and we will share it with the American people. 203 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: But right now, there is not a definitive answer that 204 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: has emerged from the intelligence community on this question. So 205 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: here you are several years after a worldwide pandemic and 206 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: we still can't figure out what happened. And I don't 207 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: see any evidence that we are pressuring the Chinese to 208 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: give us whatever we would need to be able to 209 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: have enough information. Well, I'd say this in terms of 210 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of the defense of the intelligence community, 211 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people try to spend 212 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: it one way that they're cooking the books one way 213 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: or the other. I mean, they're probably looking at the 214 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: facts they have with them, and just to be blunt, 215 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: there was no preponderance of intelligence types of apparatuses that 216 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: were set in motion or capable of being able to 217 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: relay that there was a pandemic coming out of Wuhan, China. 218 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: I mean, in many ways that IC has to rely 219 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: upon other health partners. Everybody from the WHO, to the CDC, 220 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: to other international partners that do this type of work, 221 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: and so this is kind of a new science that 222 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: they're essentially trying to pick up on the fly. And 223 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: then you have other it's said, yeah, they may not 224 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: have a smoking gun yet. They may have some ideas, 225 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: but they can't really nail down one way or the other, 226 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: so they kind of have to look at what's before them. 227 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: And then you just have others that, like you said, 228 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: that just don't have any kind of idea because that's 229 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: really not the business of what they do. And that's okay, 230 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: but again that's why this whole kind of spin against well, 231 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: this was low confidence in the FBI's is moderate. You know, 232 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: it's tough because everybody just tries to kind of treat 233 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: the information in a vacuum, and it's historically difficult, and 234 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: China is probably in terms of hard targets when it 235 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: comes to gathering intelligence, extremely difficult. And in this case, 236 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: they've done everything to essentially cover their rear ends from 237 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: the beginning, from really trying to downplay this to restricting 238 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: the WHO investigation, and so as time goes on, it 239 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: gets more difficult to pick up those breadcrumbs. Both the 240 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control just 241 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: failed miserably. This is precisely why you have a Center 242 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: for Disease Control, and they clearly did not have any 243 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: ability to get on top of this stay on top. 244 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: And from my perspective, the World Health Organization was essentially 245 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: pandering to the Chinese. They had one particular effort at 246 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: analysis early on, and they had an equal number of 247 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: Chinese and non Chinese on the panel. And you have 248 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: to say to yourself, there were seventeen Chinese and seventeen 249 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: international experts. Well, given the nature of the totalitarian state 250 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: and the control of the Chinese Conist Party, I wouldn't 251 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: expect a panel there was fifty percent Chinese to come 252 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: out with any kind of report that revealed very much 253 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: about Wuhan. I would assume that their job was to 254 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: make sure they didn't come out with a clear, accurate report. 255 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: Am I missing something? No, you're not, And it's actually 256 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: spot on because I think don't quote me on this, 257 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: but I think the number two provider of resourcing and 258 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: finances to the who is China. So the end of 259 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: the day, the bosses of the boss going to be 260 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: feeling heat to actually really took a deep dive on this. 261 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think they were eventually forced into. But 262 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: this is what the Chinese do very well. They play 263 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: these international organizations same way as you see Russia and 264 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: China play the UN Security Council game. When the kind 265 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: of action and why it becomes kind of a joke, 266 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: or the human rights panels that the UN have clear 267 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: human rights violators. So this is part for the course 268 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: for how the Chinese operate. So we're now faced with 269 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: a situation. I want to go to one other area, 270 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: which is the degree to which among senior Americans there are, 271 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: for example, really interesting emails between Bill Gates and Fauci 272 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: in which, very early on, and the Gates is the 273 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: largest funder of developing vaccines in the world, very early on, 274 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: the two of them are agreeing that they don't want 275 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: to get the American public aroused and that they want 276 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: to make sure that we stay away from these kinds 277 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: of questions. Isn't that unbelievably unpatriotic or this was the 278 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: arrogance of demigods. I mean that these people think that 279 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: they're so big and so powerful, did they have the 280 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: right to decide for the rest of us, but we 281 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: are allowed to know you're absolutely right. It's a disservice 282 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: to those that advocate and preach to follow the science 283 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: to then essentially say you're not smart enough to understand this. 284 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: You're going to try to take this the wrong direction. 285 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: This kind of gets into the broader you know, everything 286 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: from fact checking to disinformation. The fact is truth changes 287 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: because science change es and research changes. In the best 288 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: way to shine light on this as transparency and be 289 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: an open of what we do know and what we 290 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: don't know. And the fact that these kind of officials 291 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: kind of barked at people when they'd either clearly taken 292 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: lines in the past. I mean Anthony Fauci had preached 293 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: about natural immunity from previous cases the past, and then 294 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: completely kind of flip the script in this case and 295 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: question anybody who wanted to question him. Then, like I said, 296 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: it affects future reliability or credibility of folks from the 297 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: CDC or NIH when they go before Congress or the 298 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: American public and they say, you're really given me the 299 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: full story or not. I think it's coming interesting to 300 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: watch the next few weeks because the House Republicans have 301 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: established a select subcommittee on the coronavirus pandemic under the 302 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: Committee on Oversight and Accountability, which is chaired by James Comer, 303 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: and I think they're going to be digging into the 304 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: various emails and the various comments and trying to figure 305 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: out what did people know, and when did they know it, 306 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: and why was the public so consistently told things that 307 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: turned out not to be true. And it raises one 308 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: last question I really want to ask you about that 309 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: I think is kind of fascinating. You know, if you 310 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: accept that this disease came from China, and you accept 311 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: that the Chinese behavior, it either came from their lab, 312 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: in which case they're culpable would be one hundred percent, 313 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: or it somehow emerged in Wuhan, but they then lied 314 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: about it for months while it took hold around the world. 315 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: We've had parallel instances of US citizens being hurt. Olivia 316 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: paid two point seven billion dollars to the families of 317 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: pan Am Flight one h three because in nineteen ninety six, 318 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: Congress amended the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act to allow suits 319 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: against nations which were considered state sponsors of terrorism and 320 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: at the same time, you have similarly, the Justice Against 321 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: Sponsor of Terrorism Act, which passed in twenty sixteen with 322 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: an override of President Obama's veto. Now the bill stated 323 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: that a US national may file a civil action against 324 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: a foreign state for physical injury, death, or damage as 325 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: a result of an act of international terrorism committed by 326 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: a designated terrorist organization. That amended the Foreign Sovereign Immunities 327 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: Act so that the families of nine eleven could sue 328 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: the sponsors of terrorist attacks. And at the present time, 329 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: I think there are several lawyers attempting to sue Saudi 330 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: Arabia because so many of the people involved in the 331 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: nine eleven attack were Saudis. There have also been a 332 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: couple of bills put in In twenty twenty. Senator McSally 333 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: introduced the Civil Justice for Victims of COVID Act, which 334 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: allow foreign government to be sued because of it, and 335 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: Mayo of twenty twenty, Sentator Josh Holly introduced the Justice 336 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: for Victims of Coronavirus Act to established bodies to investigate 337 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: and seek damages from China. Now that the new report 338 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: just came out from the Department of Energy, Senator Hally's 339 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: announced he's going to reintroduce the Justice for Victims of 340 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 1: Coronavirus Act. Do you think there are circumstances where we 341 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: should in fact hold the Chinese communists responsible for the 342 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: mismanagement of the coronavirus in a way which has caused 343 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: one point one million lives in the US. Or is 344 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: that simply not sustainable as an act? Well, I mean, 345 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: I think absolutely, I understand the need and want for accountability, 346 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: and I think, yeah, I mean, I think some of 347 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 1: the previous like you mentioned on the Saudi Arabia and 348 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: I remember being on the hill when some of those 349 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: debates were occurring on the reforming kind of the Foreign 350 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: Diplomatic and Sovereignty Community provisions, but the minimum Chinese officials 351 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: that were either underplayed or did not relay information in 352 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: the case of party members by all means. But yeah, 353 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I don't disassociate that there's probably 354 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: broader cases to be made with the evidence being example 355 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: a possibly from the continuation of some of these intelligence 356 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: products that could possibly point to this. Now it does 357 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: get in Biggs to questions. Same was in the Saudi 358 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: Arabia case, in the nine to eleven case, the classified 359 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: nature of some of the information and evidence that you 360 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: may have, and so it could get tricky in that sense, 361 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: because it's already difficult enough to protect a lot of 362 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: our sources and methods, but in this case, what can 363 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: you actually present or some kind of legal action. It 364 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: can be challenging. And the other part of that is 365 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: that you could establish, for example, a special tariff on 366 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: all Chinese imports and turn that tariff into a fund 367 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: for the compensation of American families and there would be 368 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: basically nothing the Chinese could do about it. No, that's 369 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. I mean, I think a lot of people 370 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: would put in my pad on other people's opinions on this, 371 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: they'd probably say, well, what about retaliatory tariffs? A select 372 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: committee on China right now? And how vulnerable we are 373 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: to a lot of specific supply chains that the Chinese 374 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: have been allowed to kind of dominate, pharmaceuticals things like that, 375 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: where if they wanted to reverse course on some type 376 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: of action similar to that, that they could have a 377 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: very damaging effect on the United States as well. I'm 378 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: not saying I buy into that, but I definitely concede 379 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: the ground that we need to do a better job 380 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: of removing the complete reliability of some of these supply chains, 381 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: because it makes us vulnerable to trying to do actions. 382 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: Just as you mentioned holding people accountable, and I'm prey 383 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: turned holding people accountable. What's your view of the potential 384 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: culpability of major government officials who who were now learning 385 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: from various subpoenas and the production of various emails and 386 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: what have you. They clearly we're lying, and we're lying 387 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: in ways which I think we're designed I think to 388 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: protect China from the US, and then lying in ways 389 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: that we're designed to protect the public health community from 390 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: the American people, who, into what ad sense? Should those 391 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: folks face some consequence for the way we're now learning 392 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: that they behaved. Yeah, this is something that is not 393 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: just unique to the situation. I mean from when I 394 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: worked on the hill for Congressman to Siantis at the 395 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: time or Congressman Ratcliffe. I mean we were begging the 396 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: questions on everything from lowest learner to Andy McCabe to now, 397 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: like you said, you know these officials doctor fauci a 398 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: at ih who kind of the permanent bureaucratic class that 399 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: kind of at times sits outside the scope of accountability 400 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: or they find a way still to get off the hook. 401 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: And so I think some of the Congress to visit 402 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: from a codification standpoint, I would make any bureaucrat be 403 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: shaken in their boots from doing really dumb things and 404 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: know that there's a consequence for that, and so of 405 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: its accountability, the transparency of oversight hearings. But it needs 406 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: to be followed up, I think with actual teeth to 407 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: say just because you're a federal bureaucrat doesn't get you 408 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: your gspay and protection from ever getting fired, because we're 409 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: going to be looking at actually producing accountability for people 410 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: in the government. How much are you concerned that despite 411 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: everything over the last three years, we really have not 412 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: overhauled the Center for Disease Control and we really haven't 413 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: overhauled our whole ability for earlier detection and earlier management 414 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: of potentially fast moving pandemics. To what extense? Should that 415 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: be a much higher national priority to modernize the system 416 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: and fundamentally replaced the bureaucracy with a more modern model. 417 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: It's a huge priority because I mean, this was a 418 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: textbook case of how not to do things, slowed by 419 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: bureaucracy and then also the focus at times on things 420 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: honestly that now that we know and we kind of 421 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: knew back then didn't matter. I mean, the advocacies of masks, 422 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: keeping kids at home. I mean, my whole boss down 423 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: to Florida was kind of putting his thumb in the hole, 424 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: trying to say, no, we're not going to do these 425 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: dumb things. If we're going to have an organization that 426 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: preaches science and nimbleness to specially counter what could be 427 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: still some really devastating pandemics down the road. One, you 428 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: have to have institutional trust from the American people and 429 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 1: policy makers that you're agile and doing the correct actions. 430 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: And on the back end, you've got to be able 431 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: to do you that job on a daily basis and 432 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: have the personnel not just upload it but also getting 433 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: at working with international partners to identify these things early 434 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: on and looking for treatments and things that can actually 435 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: counter some really severe risk. I've seen several articles indicating 436 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: that the World Health Organization is trying to get Biden 437 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: to sign an agreement which would give them basically control 438 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: over pandemics, which strikes me given their crack record in 439 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: this pandemic. Would be sort of mildly crazy. Have you 440 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: looked at that at all? I couldn't think of a 441 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: more tone deaf exercise. I would not sign on to 442 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: a single line of some kind of broader treaty that 443 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: locks the US into something that maybe to the benefit 444 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: of us to an extent, but doesn't hold defeat to 445 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: the fire of people that are also in the who 446 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: like the Chinese. The degree to which the Chinese get 447 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: away with things is just astonishing, and the degree to 448 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: which the international community somehow is managed by them so 449 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: that it never really comes to grips with what they're doing. 450 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: This is bad is a pretty remarkable story of its own. 451 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: Let me ask you one of the things, since you 452 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: did have an overview of all the American intelligence systems, 453 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: do we need to have a sort of systematic review 454 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: of how the intelligence community operates and what is needed 455 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: to modernize it and make it more effective and timelier. Yeah, 456 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: I do, and I've actually been doing a lot of 457 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: work in this space. There also needs to be revisiting 458 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: even from our model that we created after nine to 459 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: eleven and the od and if there's never been like 460 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: a solid construct, everybody's been kind of given unclearmission statements. 461 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: I think presidents have treated at the IC in different 462 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: ways and that's always going to be the case to 463 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: an extent, but for it to operate in unison, it's 464 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: a big apparatus. So we're talking eighty five plus billion dollars, 465 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people doing diverse things, a lot of 466 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: them sit underneath different cabinet heads. And so again as 467 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about the same issues that you see in 468 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 1: terms of having an agile CDC, and I think that 469 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: the IC needs to do a better job. And I 470 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: think on analytical tradecraft, I think they do actually a 471 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: lot of work behind the scenes trying to reevaluate some 472 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: mold products and become better. But I also worry at 473 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: the same time. I mean, I remember talking to Dni 474 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: Ratcliffe about this is there was things that we flagged 475 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: when we were there about some members of the IC, 476 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: even the analytical side, being worried about passing products up 477 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the chain because they were worried about what policymakers would 478 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: do with intelligence. Now, of course we heard in the 479 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: media everything about intelligence officials and the political realm. BEI 480 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: they're politicizing intelligence, which is also bad in certain ways, 481 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: but by all means the last thing you want is 482 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: a career. I see official not giving you the full 483 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: picture because of what they may be worried about you 484 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: may do on an action as it relates to say 485 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: China or Iran or something else. So those are things 486 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: that really I think a new administration and Congress should 487 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: unpack over the next few years. I'd say, where do 488 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: we want to go from here to make sure that 489 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: we're getting the best bang for the buck and real 490 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: accountability out of the intelligence community. Listen, that's very, very helpful. 491 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm frankly, I feel great that you're at Heritage working 492 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: on these kinds of issues and playing the intellectual base 493 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: for the kind of modernization that we're going to need. Dustin, 494 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me, and with 495 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: the upcoming congressional hearings, I have a hunch we're going 496 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: to hear a lot more about the origins of COVID 497 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: nineteen and I do hopefully if the ability as a 498 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: country to hold China accountable. So thank you for joining 499 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: me on news World. Thanks for having me, sir. Thank 500 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: you to my guest Dustin Carmack. Read more about the 501 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: origins of COVID nineteen on our showpage at newtsworld dot com. 502 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: News World is produced by Gingwish Free sixty and iHeartMedia. 503 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howell, 504 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 505 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 506 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: team at gingwishtwee sixty. 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