1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, there's Chuck, 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: there's Dave. Be quiet, let's go. So we're talking about 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: paternity testing in the history of paternity testing, which is 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: amazing because it's all pretty new as far as really 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: being able to do paternity testing. Yeah, you and I 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: grew up in a world where I mean pretty much 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: from the moment we realized that that would be an 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: issue that somebody would need to solve, it was pretty 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: much solved because if we we grew up in a 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: world where you could genetically test for paternity like testing 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: markers on white blood cells and produced basically nine accurate 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: assessment of whether somebody was the father of a child 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,319 Speaker 1: or not. Prior to us coming of age. In this 14 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: age of genetic paternity testing, however, it was a real problem, Chuck, 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: like a longstanding problem. Apparently. Yeah. Should we talk about 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: the story of Saint Anthony. I was hoping you'd ask 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: twelve century priests. Saint Anthony. At one point a woman 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: came to him and she said, you know what, my 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: jealous husband thinks that he's not the father. He thinks 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: I stepped out and cuckolded him, and uh, he's threatening 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: to kill me and this child. And so Anthony went 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: to the family and said, I'm going to do a test. 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: It's called a paternity test. And he went to the 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: little baby and said, who's your daddy, And the baby 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: pointed to the jealous husband, this is an infant and 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: said that is my father. This is an infant. End 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,639 Speaker 1: of story. Um, so Saint Anthony said, and like left 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: as he was known to do, and became a saint 29 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: shortly after that, right at the end of this episode. 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Now it's not the end because a very smart person 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: named Nara Milanich, who's a history professor at Barnard College, 32 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: has authored a book called Paternity colon the Elusive Quest 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: for the Father where it really and Dave Rouse, our 34 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: old pal, wrote this article and um and did he 35 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: talk to Nera I believe so, Yeah, and even interviewed 36 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: her and she really got down on this topic of 37 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of researching the history of paternity. And it's pretty interesting because, uh, 38 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: in the early days, like all early days of science, 39 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: and when there was a lot of pseudoscience going on, 40 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: they were doing all kinds of wacky stuff. Yeah, because 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: again people were like, what are we what are we 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: gonna do. We have no idea how to prove how 43 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: to prove paternity or disproved paternity, And there is a 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: lot of people who really want an answer to this. 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: So because the need was so great, um quacks were 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: allowed to kind of fill the void for a little while, 47 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: especially apparently in the nine twenties there was a um 48 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: the nation was gripped in a panic that babies were 49 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: being switched and maternity wards and hospitals too. So it 50 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: wasn't just the idea that your wife stepped out on 51 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: your had an affair um with another man, and that 52 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: this wasn't your child. Like men and women wanted to 53 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: be able to prove a child was theirs, but there 54 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: was just no way to do that scientifically. So, like 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: you said, pseudo science said, hey, we'll try this for 56 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: a little while. Yeah, And so a quack might step 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: in and say, we need to look at the roof 58 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: of the mouth, because uh, we want to determine if 59 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: they've eatn any Captain Crunch peanut butter cereal lately, but 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: just the flesh, bloody flush dangling from the roof of 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: the mouth. No, they thought the ridges on the roof 62 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: of the mouth had patterns sort of like a fingerprint 63 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: that were passed from father to child. Complete bunk. Yeah, 64 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: but imagine that examle but that wasn't fun. I don't 65 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: know blockchaw anyone. Yeah, Like, how are they gonna see 66 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: the roof of your mouth? Just gonna feel around or 67 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: maybe do an impression test? That does not sound pleasant. 68 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: What someone sticking their fingers in the roof of your mouth? Yeah, 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: and feeling it seems calming to me. What eugenics comes next? Uh? 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: And that is like, hey, let's look at your let's 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: measure your nose and ears and feel your hair, and 72 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: we'll determine that way if this is your father, and 73 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: be really racist about it. Right. And then a dude 74 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: came along in the nies named Dr Albert Abrams and 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: his ah, his bunk science machine, the oscilla four. Oh 76 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: nice pronunciation, Charles. So. Dr Abrams not only came up 77 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: with the oscilla four, I'm going to say it a 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: different way, the acillaphor. Okay um, he came up with 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: what the oscillophor measures, which makes the whole thing totally 80 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: made up. But he said that if you measure blood 81 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: with an ascile of four. Now I'm not gonna say 82 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: it either way. Um, you will get what's called the 83 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: electronic reactions of Abrams, which is a measure of the 84 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: electrical movement or electrical vibrations in blood, and that the 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: vibrations in the blood was related to your ethnic heritage. 86 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: That's right. And if you're Irish, you're gonna vibrate your 87 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: blood will at fifteen ohms to Jewish seven olms. Everybody 88 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: knows that, and on down the line. Uh. And so 89 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: this was the only thing going at the time, So 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: judges turned to Abram's particular judge named Thomas Graham Uh 91 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. He hired him to determine a very 92 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: high profile paternity case involving a guy named Paul Vittori 93 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: who was not good an wait a minute on behalf 94 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: of all listeners, chuck, I'm sorry, that's how you're gonna say, 95 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: Paul victory, thank you. And he said, I'm not gonna 96 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: pay child support for my infant daughter. It's not my daughter. 97 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: So they brought in Abram's two court and they did 98 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: the little blood vibration and said you are the father 99 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: because your vibe, your blood is vibrating at the correct 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: uh rate. YEA and that was that, and everybody said 101 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: this is a gross miscarriage of justice, and the judges like, 102 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: what else are you gonna do? We can't do anything 103 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: like this is just as good a guess as any 104 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: But what's funny is this was in the nineteen twenties. 105 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: I believe right within a decade um, there would actually 106 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: be a scientific basis for testing blood to determine paternity 107 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: one way or the other. And Chuck, we're gonna talk 108 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: about that right after this message break, Chuck Kuld. That's 109 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: a great set up, buddy, Thank you very much. So 110 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: we we tease science finally coming into the picture, um, 111 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: and it came through with blood types. Basically, they figured 112 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: out that there was such thing as blood types, which, 113 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: by the way, way we did a really great live 114 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: show on blood types before. That was a good way 115 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: to see so um and my father in law shouted 116 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: out that I'm pregnant. That's right, yeah from the from 117 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: the audience, Well we're testing my blood. Yeah we tested 118 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: blood on stage. Yeah and got he got bigger laughs 119 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: than I did the entire show. But anyway, Um, the 120 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: fact that blood types were proven, somebody figured out that 121 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: oh wait, you inherit your blood types from your parents, 122 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: so we can go a pretty far away in ruling 123 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: somebody in or out is the possible father of a child. Yeah, 124 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: not obviously, you're nine nine nine, But there are some 125 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: things we know. Um, if the baby has a B 126 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: blood type, and you know the mother has type A 127 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: blood type, then the father's got to have either B 128 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: or a B. And so they could really narrow down 129 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: in a scientific way, like a hundred times more than 130 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: they ever could in the past. And this came like 131 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: really to the public. Four um, which is a phrase 132 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: I just made up. During a Charlie Chaplin paternity case. 133 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: Charlie Chaplin, the beloved Charlie Chaplin, was sued for paternity 134 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: by his longtime assistant Joan Barry. Yeah, he had a 135 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: knack for the young ladies and loving him and leaving him. 136 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: And Joan Barry was twenty three when Chaplin was fifty four, 137 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: and she said, this little baby Caroline is Charlie's daughter, 138 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: and um, I'm kind of tired of this pattern that 139 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: he's developed, of of getting young women pregnant and then 140 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: leaving them in the cold. So I'm going to take 141 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: him to court. And they took him to court, and 142 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: they used science and they showed that he was not 143 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: the father of Caroline. Right, So that was it. Right now, 144 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: now you'd think he'd be off the hook, And that 145 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: would have been the case had that had this case 146 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: been tried ten fifteen years later. But instead the jury said, well, okay, 147 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: he's not biologically the father, but because of his close 148 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: relationship with Joan, he is Caroline's father there for all 149 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: intentsive purposes. So we're you're still going to be allowed 150 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: to sue him for child support. That's right. Of the 151 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: twelve person jury. There were eleven women and one man, 152 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: and they roundly said sorry, Charlie, right, and he just 153 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: sat there silently, Yeah, that's right, and walked into a wall. Yeah. 154 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: His facial expression said it all though. So I think 155 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: what in nineteen fifty three, thirteen years later, California law said, actually, 156 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: we're not going to decide this by jury like that. 157 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: If if we take a scientific test and it shows 158 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: that someone's not the father, then they're not the father, right, 159 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: We're just gonna leave it at that. And then after 160 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: California passed that law, other states said, you know, it's 161 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: not a bad idea altogether. So we're gonna do that too, 162 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: and then the whole thing, just like we were saying, 163 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: all of it just went to the wayside when they 164 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: figured out genetic testing first in the eighties, but then 165 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: by the nineties it had been developed enough and the 166 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: tests had become cheap enough that it was very much 167 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: widespread and used routinely and had completely supplanted blood typing 168 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: as the test paternity so much so, and it's gotten 169 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: so cheap that Maury Povich has an ongoing thing on 170 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: his moriy show, the Daytime Talk Show, where um yeah, 171 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: he routinely tests and then reveals on air the results 172 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: of paternity tests for guests and like plays it up. 173 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: There's all sorts of drama, and apparently they have mugs 174 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: and t shirts with the catchphrase you are not the 175 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: father emblazoned on its high drama. And every every day 176 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: Connie Chung gets up and looks herself in the mirror 177 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: and she's like, I've got dignity enough for the both 178 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: of us. I always forget they're married. Yeah, because the 179 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: things like the coffee mugs, I say you are not 180 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: the father, It kind of distances the two in your mind. 181 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: You got Povich that's right. So obviously it's like you said, 182 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: it got so cheap that you can get these tests 183 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: now for around fifteen bucks or less, which is a 184 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: great deal. But then of course you gotta pay the 185 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: lab fees. That's where they get you with that on 186 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: exactly over a hundred dollars to to get that lab tested. 187 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: Because you can you can go to your local drug store, 188 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: but that's not going to tell you anything. It's not 189 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: like a pregnancy test. No, No, you still have to 190 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: have it read by a t leave reader. That's right. Um, 191 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: I think that's it, right, Chuck. Yeah, I've never taken 192 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: a paternity test, nor have I hooray, hooray chuck um. 193 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about fraternity testing in 194 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: the history of it, go check out this article by 195 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: Dave Rouse on how stuff Works. And since I said that, 196 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: that means it's the end of the short stuff Short 197 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: stuff because Stuff you Should Know is a production of 198 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works for more podcasts for my 199 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: heart Radio because at the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 200 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.