1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and Caroline. I have a feeling that 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: some listeners probably saw the title of this episode is 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: p MS a myth? And thought what I see and 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: see off their rockers could possibly be a myth. Yeah, 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean, I know that I definitely experience 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: various symptoms every month depending I mean, it depends, but 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot more than just are you crampy? Yeah, 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: crampy and cranky? Yeah, that's actually what CNC stands for. 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: Crampy and cranky some days, you know, let's be honest, 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: it happens. We have our scenes, the kinds of days, 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: just like the next gal or guy or guy. Yeah. Um. Well, 14 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: before we get into the potential mythology of p MS, 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: which I know people are probably on the edge of 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: their seats right to find out about, let's start with 17 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: some basic facts about what p M S is. For starters, 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: it stands for pre menstrul syndrome, right, and this whole 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: syndrome deal refers to a wide range of symptoms that 20 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: start during the second half of your menstrreul cycle. That's 21 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: fourteen days or more after the first day of your 22 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: last menstrual period, and they tend to go away a 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 1: day or two after your period starts. And it comes 24 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: with all sorts of delightful symptoms, And National Institutes of 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Health has such a long, long list of potential symptoms 26 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: associated with it, including common things such as mood swings, 27 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: breast tenderness, food cravings, fatigue, here to ability, depression, just 28 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: general C and C kinds of feelings, right, and in 29 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: severe cases, the levels of mood disruption are similar to 30 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: those of people with major depression. Actually, and women with 31 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: pre menstrual dysphoric disorder or pmd D appeared to be 32 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: at a greater risk of developing major depression. And we 33 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: will dive a little bit deeper into pm d D 34 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: later on in the episode. But just talking about PMS 35 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: in general, how many women does it affect? Pretty much 36 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: all people who have periods, including women and trans men. 37 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: But even the stats for that can be all over 38 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: the place, because by some estimates, three of every four 39 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: men's training person experiences some form of PMS. But then 40 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to the types of symptoms, the intensity, 41 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: the frequency, things really start to vary. For instance, there's 42 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: a paper trying to quantify p MS and it found that, uh, 43 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: some degree of temporary quote mental or physical incapacitation is 44 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: experienced by women while experience were current prementional symptoms. So 45 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: who knows where you might fall in that right and 46 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: breaking it down further, the American Congress of Obstetricians and 47 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: Kynecologists says that probably somewhere around of women experience at 48 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: least one symptom, and we listed a bunch of them, 49 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: and there are a whole bunch more. I mean, everything 50 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: from mood stuff to physical pain to acne. There's like 51 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: a ton of stuff as a lot of you might 52 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: guess associated with PMF. But again, the symptoms experience will 53 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: vary from person to person and from cycle to cycle, 54 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: which is partially why the National Institutes of Health and 55 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: plenty of other sources explicitly state that the exact cause 56 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: of PMS has not been identified, which is kind of 57 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: mind blowing. I mean, I you know, I mean like 58 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm a woman with a uterus and ovaries, and I 59 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: have a period, and so I have experienced pre menstrual symptoms. Um, 60 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: but I thought for sure I thought for sure there 61 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: would be more, because you know, there's a lot of 62 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: talk about hormones and this and that it's not you know, 63 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: it's obviously not that hormones don't play a role in 64 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: pre menstrual symptoms, but the fact that nobody has nailed 65 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: this sucker down as far as like this, this is why, 66 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: this is what causes it, and this is what makes 67 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: it bad or not as bad or whatever. It's kind 68 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: of like, I just felt doubly disappointed because it's kind 69 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: of the same thing with my migraines, Like doctors are, 70 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: like a lot of people get migraines, we're not really 71 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: sure well. And it's also PMS is also such almost 72 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: an indoctrinated part of the menstrual cycle that we learn 73 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: about as young girls, probably even before we get our 74 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: first period. We know that there's also this other set 75 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: of things that might come with it, even before the 76 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: bleeding begins, and it's called p MS. And yet, yeah, 77 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: doctors are still kind of scratching their heads because I 78 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: mean they have some decent guesses. Obviously, it has to 79 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: do with hormonal fluctuations, particularly varying levels of progesterone and 80 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: estrogen over our cycles, which you know you hear the 81 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,679 Speaker 1: average twenty eight days, although again not everybody's mentional cycle 82 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: is twenty eight days. Um. It might also have to 83 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: do with levels of serotonin, changing, depression, stress, dietary habits, exercise, 84 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: so many environmental and biological factors that could maybe contribute 85 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, and not to mention that your hormones 86 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: and your serotonine are connected, because researchers show that falling 87 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: levels of hormones, mainly estrogen during the luvial phase or 88 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: the pre menstrual phase might effect the activity of central 89 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: serotonin in people who are susceptible to experiencing these symptoms. 90 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: And seratonin is often referred to as the happy hormone, 91 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: you know, the hormone that makes us feel great. So 92 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: maybe if the serotonin drops, then you get a case 93 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: of the se and seas, which I really I realized 94 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: that maybe I shouldn't stop just referring to PMS as 95 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: the se and c s because it could possibly sour 96 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: people toward us. Yeah, we don't want to be maybe 97 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: too closely aligned with p MS. Well, although that could 98 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: make for a funny T shirt, that's true. This is true. 99 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: Lots of lots of ideas happening here. Um. But in 100 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: the meantime, back to PMS and the science of it. 101 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: It is so widespread though, some wonder whether there is 102 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: an evolutionary explanation to this, And we read a paper 103 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: about this called were there evolutionary Advantages to p MS? 104 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: By Michael R. Gilling's published in twenty fourteen in a 105 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: journal Evolutionary Applications, and Gilling suspects that, yes, there has 106 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: to have been some kind of advantage to this, right 107 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: because after all, as he points out, PMS does have 108 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: certain important attributes to it, which include a high heritability. 109 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: So he's saying that you know, if people in your family, 110 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: specifically women, if women and your family had, you know, 111 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: terrible PMS, for instance, then you might be more likely 112 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: to suffer those symptoms. He also talks about gene variants 113 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: associated with PMS being identified, but his main point that 114 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: he gets to is this whole issue of animosity during 115 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: PMS being preferentially directed at a woman's current partner that 116 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: may lend itself to increasing the chances of finding a 117 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: new partner. And it's like, huh, what your period makes 118 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: you go search for a new partner? Not exactly. Well, 119 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: so he thinks that perhaps PMS is a vehicle that 120 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: was used to help women dissolve in fertile relationships because obviously, 121 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: if you get your period usually usually means you aren't pregnant, 122 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: and so if a relationship is not resulting in pregnancy, 123 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: especially we were talking about way back when, when there's 124 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: so much more focused simply on procreation, that if that 125 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: wasn't happening, then perhaps PMS sort of prompts this hostility 126 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: towards your current partner and to then drive a wedge 127 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: between this relationship and send you off searching for someone else. 128 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: So there's that. Yeah, but I mean, you know, they're 129 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: a bajillion women out there on birth control who are 130 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: controlling their reproductive path and choices, and you know, still 131 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: having periods on their birth control. So well, that's something 132 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: that he points out in terms of the possible theoretical 133 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: prior function of PMS us in the days long before 134 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: birth control, and how today without that possible function at work, 135 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: because we have birth control and more control over our 136 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: reproductive cycles, that it's not it's not as applicable obviously today. Yeah. Well, 137 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: also under this hypothesis, PMS is not a syndrome per se, 138 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: but quote a normal consequence of adaptive strategies developed during 139 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: our evolutionary history. So, in other words, the next time 140 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: someone maybe uh makes a makes a joke at you 141 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: about being all pmss e, you can come back with, hey, listen, buster, 142 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: this is just a normal consequence of adaptive strategies developed 143 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: during our evolutionary history. All right, then back off, drop 144 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: your imaginary microphone or your tampon, use the tampon as 145 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: a standoff like a tampon his or her face, and 146 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: walk away, right and then apologize because that might be rude. 147 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: But so we've established, Caroline, that p MS exists. They're 148 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: clearly symptoms. You and I have both experienced them. A 149 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: lot of our listeners have probably experienced them. So why 150 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: is the title of this episode? Is PMS a myth? 151 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: Why are we calling it a myth? Perhaps, Well, it's 152 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: that whole keyword pre menstrul that has a lot to 153 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: do with it. There was a literature review from researchers 154 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: at the University of Toronto called Mood and the Minstrel 155 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: Cycle Review of Perspective Data Studies, which called the whole 156 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: mood aspect of PMS into question, and it actually got 157 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people riled up because basically they looked 158 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: at a ton of studies and did not find a 159 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: whole huge amount of evidence supporting that just in the 160 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,479 Speaker 1: pre menstrual period you're more likely to definitely have mood disorders. 161 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: This was then interpreted by a lot of people, bloggers, journalists, 162 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: whatever to mean that it doesn't exist, and you're all crazy, right, 163 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: So a lot of as happens a lot these days, 164 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: actually when it comes to reporting on study findings, there 165 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: was a lot of misinterpretation. So one of the authors 166 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: speaking to The Atlantic clarified that the whole point of 167 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: this analysis of the forty one studies they looked at. 168 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: The whole point was not to show that menstrual mood 169 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: shifts don't exist at all, or that the physical symptoms 170 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: don't says, they actually weren't even looking at the physical symptoms, 171 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: but rather to examine that connection, like you said, between 172 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: menstruation and mood, because she said, the author speaking to 173 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: The Atlantic said, quote, the whole p MS notion serves 174 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: to keep women non irritable, sweet and compliant the rest 175 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: of the time, because out of those forty one studies 176 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: that they looked at, only seven found any sort of 177 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: link between negative moods and the pre menstrul phase, and 178 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: so the study authors concluded that the body of research 179 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: so far has failed to provide clear evidence in support 180 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: of the existence of a specific pre menstrual negative mood syndrome. 181 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: And yet we have this widespread belief that, of course 182 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: during in the days leading up to your period, you 183 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: will be completely emotionally unstable and cry a lot, right, 184 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: which is going to lead us eventually in this episode 185 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: to talk a lot more about how those assumptions and 186 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: stereotypes have been used against women. And this particular study 187 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: is just one that questions the validity of PMS as 188 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: we think about it today. So let's take a look 189 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: kind of through history at how our perception of menstruation 190 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: in general and pre minstrel symptoms in particular have evolved. 191 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: So for a little p MS history, let us star 192 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: in one the year of PMS sounds amazing. Not only 193 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: was the Great Depression on, but this one also the 194 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: year the PMS first happened. So the term pre menstrual 195 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: tension as opposed to pre menstrual syndrome, was first coined 196 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: by Dr Robert T. Frank in a paper he presented 197 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: to the New York Academy of Medicine in which he 198 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: described this pre menstrual tension as intense personal suffering that 199 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: goes along with varying degrees of discomfort and women having 200 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: a feeling like jumping out of our skin. Yeah. He definitely, 201 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: he and several other researchers in this era, I wanted 202 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: to look at what was going on. And it is 203 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: interesting to keep in mind the context of all of 204 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: these things happening, because one major thing that a lot 205 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: of people have focused on when it comes to looking 206 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: at PMS and talking about menstruation and reproductive health is 207 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: sort of the pairing of the way we talk about 208 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: it and the way we think about it and also 209 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: what's going on in the world at the time. And 210 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: so Frank was writing after the Depression, when a lot 211 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: of women's post World War One gains leaving the home, 212 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: getting jobs, etcetera. Were slipping and things were kind of 213 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: going back to quote unquote normal, and so it was 214 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: a time of a lot of social anxiety. And it 215 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of scholarship about women tends to 216 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: come out in periods of social anxiety. But Frank's prescription 217 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: for severe cases of this pre menstrual tension was either 218 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: complete removal or radiation therapy of the ovaries to decrease 219 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: estrogen production and therefore restore order in the woman's life 220 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: and then therefore in her environment. Well, what's interesting too 221 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: is that in the same year in ne psychoanalyst Karen 222 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: Horny publishes a paper about quote pre menstrual mood swings 223 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: linked to strongly rejected fantasies of motherhood. So talk about, 224 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, these kinds of social anxieties and the background 225 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: of that and how this is influencing research on women, because, 226 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: as Michael Solberg points out in the paper he wrote 227 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: about this, called the Monthly Malady, A History of pre 228 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: menstrul Suffering. Uh, some of the background to these discussions 229 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: that Horny and Frank were initiating about this pre menstrul tension, 230 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: these pre menstrual mood swings, or the fact that there 231 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: were more women entering the workforce, and along with that 232 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: there was growing concern over the potentially negative effects of 233 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: menstruation on productivity. And fast forward to today and you 234 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: hear similar things in terms of oh, well, if a 235 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: female is in the White House, then what happens if 236 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: chigezlberiod and all hell breaks loose? That's right, I know, well, 237 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: but I mean that's the same thing that's been going 238 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: on forever. I mean, you know, sure, now we're worried 239 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: about a female president getting her period and will she 240 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: get all hormonal and whatever, But you know, hundreds and 241 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of years ago, people were still freaking 242 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: out about women's reproductive systems having some crazy effect on 243 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: their mental stability. And if we talk about the wandering 244 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: womb and hysteria and everything. But we'll get to that. 245 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: But in this era, in the thirties, there is an 246 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: increasing focus on psychology, and women are starting to complain 247 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: to their doctors more than just about physical pain and 248 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: physical discomfort and fatigue. They're also starting to complain to 249 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: their doctors about psychological symptoms. And that leads us to 250 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: Dr Katerina Dalton, who in nineteen fifty three coins pre 251 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: menstrual syndrome, which has the same symptoms as what Robert 252 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: Frank described earlier, but with the whole incorporation of the 253 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: words syndrome, it basically suggests an underlying disease. It tells 254 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: women in whoever else is listening, that you don't have 255 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: to accept the comfort that you're going through and that 256 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: medicine can help out. Kind of seems like a positive, 257 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: but it's also pathologizing something natural that happens to women 258 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: every month. And what's ironic is that by the nineteen nineties, 259 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: this same doctor Karine and Dalton is I'm going to 260 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: talk about how she really considers PMS a misnomer because 261 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: symptoms aren't restricted to that period right before menstruation. It's 262 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: not just limited to the luteal phase. But you mentioned, Caroline, 263 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: that pathologizing menstruation in this way, it's clearly it's not 264 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: something that that started in nineteen thirty one. And we've 265 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: talked many times on the podcast about hysteria and the 266 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: wandering womb and all of these more ancient theories about 267 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: menstruation because before the twentieth century, doctors really did not 268 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: understand the hormonal influences, partially because the medical technology wasn't there, 269 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: and so we have all of these different phases that 270 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: the concept of menstruation goes through, starting of course with 271 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: Hippocrates and hysteria and the wandering womb and Hippocrates Um 272 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: he alludes actually two p ms. He refers to these 273 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: what we would think of today as menstrual related mood swings, 274 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: but attributed to them to hysteria and uteral movement, that 275 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: wandering womb, which was supposed to correspond to the phases 276 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: of the moon. So this is all tying into why, 277 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: for instance, we call menstruation your moon cycle. Well. Yeah. 278 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: He also talked about how a woman with a uterus 279 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: containing retained menstrual blood, which pressed on the heart and diaphragm, 280 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: was inclined to various mental derangements. But it's not like 281 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: Hippocrates was alone this. I mean, the ancient Egyptians thought that, 282 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: like the control center of your body was not your brain, 283 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: but your heart. And so if you had a bunch 284 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: of menstrual blood stored up in there and it's pressing 285 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: on your heart, then of course you're going to act 286 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: like a crazy person. Yeah, And once we get into 287 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: the Renaissance, menstruation is thought of as this cathartic process 288 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: of women getting rid of that build up of excrement 289 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: semen in what they called peckant matter. And this idea 290 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: lasts until the mid seventeenth century, and that kind of 291 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: idea in a similar way still persists today in the 292 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: idea of oh, you need to have your period because 293 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: it's cleansing, it's cleaning you out of all of that 294 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: and demetrial tissue that is building up just ties into 295 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: people thinking that women's reproductive organs are gross and dirty. Yeah, 296 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: But also in the Renaissance, PMS syndromes were attributed to 297 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: a backup of quote a gross seculent, condensed and clotted, 298 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: and at the same time also sharp blood. Those sharp bloods. 299 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: What does I mean, what does that mean? I don't know, 300 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: but carolina is not good. Does not sound good at all, 301 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: not sound good. Well, So, in the seventeenth century, there 302 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: was a slightly different perspective. It was the plethora model 303 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: of menstruation. Basically, the women bleed to prevent plethora, which 304 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: was defined as an overloading and excessive dilation of the 305 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: vessels and the body in general with blood. So not 306 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: necessarily like cleansing yourself, but just flushing yourself out, getting 307 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: rid of all that blood that's been building up and 308 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: causing pressure in your body. I'm just imagining it's like 309 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: a monthly toilet flushing. That's delightful. Well. Moving into the 310 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, the plethora model is replaced by what's called 311 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: the fermentation model. So things are still things are still 312 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: sharp and gross in there. But the fermentation model explained 313 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: menstrual leading as a result of a quote fermentation or 314 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: fivescence hello by a menstrual ferment or a female semen. 315 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: Is also when they think that that women have um 316 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: a semen that contributes to reproduction as well. But I 317 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: just want to stay on a side note that reading 318 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: about the effervescence just makes me think about us having 319 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 1: It's really just like a belly full of lacroix building up. 320 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: It's gonna say fresco, Yeah, clearly Canadian um. But this 321 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: fermentation model, though, also explains more of the sudden onset 322 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: of PMS symptoms coming on or right before your menstruation. 323 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: You're bleeding, as opposed to plethora, which by that theory 324 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: would have been a gradual build up of discomfort over 325 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: the entire month. Interesting, and this theory also does its 326 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: part to explain breast swelling and tenderness because they figured 327 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: that it was involved in the sympathetic influence of the uterus, 328 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: causing said breast swelling. But by far my most favorite 329 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: menstrual theory of the seventeen hundreds came when they were 330 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: trying to figure out this connection between menstruation and mood. 331 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: And of course they assumed that with this whole fermentation, 332 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: the the lacroix in your belly and whatnot, that it 333 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: would lead to women's psychological instability for a period of time. 334 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: Um and they referred to it as nervous over excitation, 335 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: mood changes, getting the vapors and it worse though, And 336 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: this was probably like ye old pmd D. Those women 337 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: experienced what was called menstrul folly. Oh, menstrel folly. That 338 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: just sounds like you're making like it's causing you to 339 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: make terrible life decisions, not that you're necessarily experiencing pain 340 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: or anything. I mean, I would vote for calling it 341 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: your menstrual folly to be the new period, because I 342 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: mean there's also a bit of whimsy in that too. Yeah. Well, 343 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm just going through my menstrual folly like you're skipping 344 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: with ribbons. And in the nineteenth century, menstruation was described 345 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: as an orgasm of the uterus, and Stolberg, citing a 346 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: physician of the time, talks about how the uterus, due 347 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: to its overwhelming sympathetic influence on the nervous system, subjected 348 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: women to its unrelenting tyranny. That sounds awful, the unrelenting 349 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: tyranny of your floating, hysterical uterus. Yeah, I mean with 350 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: things like peckant matter and menstrual folly and vapor and 351 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: lacroix and plethora good, all mixed drink in there. The 352 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: uterus is quite a tyrant by this point. But it 353 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: was also too in the nineteenth century, as Stolberg talks about, 354 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: where you have the development of lifestyle theories associated with 355 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: UM the aggressiveness or intensity of PMS symptoms. Particularly wealthy 356 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: urban women who ate lots of food, did not have children, 357 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: and indulged in quote lascivious novels, music, theater, and painting 358 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: were assumed to be the most susceptible to PMS like symptoms. 359 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: And I have a feeling that it's really though, that 360 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: delay of motherhood and possibly marriage that would cast the 361 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: brightest spotlight on you. Well, right, because the Greeks thought, 362 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean, this is it's so interesting to see the 363 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: direct correlation here. But like, I mean, the Greeks thought 364 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: that if you were experiencing terrible PMS or what we 365 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: would think of as PMDD symptoms, then you needed to 366 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: have sex and get yourself pregnant. But before that you 367 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: would obviously have to get married. And so that kind 368 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: of fixed, you know, that was two birds with one stone, right, 369 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: and their in their view at the time that yes, 370 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: the sexual intercourse would help ease your symptoms and you 371 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't be quite so moody and crazy, but you would 372 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: also be happily married with children, and society would all 373 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: be as it should well. And then if you fast 374 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: forward to one you have psycho analysts Karen Horney linking 375 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: prementional mood swings to motherhood constructs and essentially us acting 376 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: out against that all of those social anxieties. Kristen, that's right. 377 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean along with this lifestyle theory that 378 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: developed in the nineteenth century, I mean people were really 379 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: concerned not just about women, not just in general, but like, 380 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: people were really concerned about the effect that cities, modernization 381 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: and overpopulation we're having on people. They really thought that 382 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: living in cities was interfering with our animal natures, and 383 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: it just so happened that they assumed that the effects 384 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: of this were worse for women, because of course our 385 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: sanity was consistently linked to reproductive system. So if we're 386 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: having any sort of pre menstrual symptoms and things like that, 387 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: then obviously we're just feeling the effects of the city's 388 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: overpopulation worse than men are. And then moving into the 389 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: twentieth century, things do start to get a little more scientific, because, 390 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: for instance, in the nineteen twenties, scientists isolate sex hormones, 391 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: which then allows for deeper understanding of at least how 392 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: menstruation works and all of the different phases and how 393 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: that's linked to reproduction and pregnancy. But nonetheless, by this 394 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: time we have a centuries worth of this build up 395 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 1: of this association between menstruation and women's psychological instability and 396 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: moodiness and irritability. And in writing about this, Michael Stolberg 397 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: points out how this whole time women have been describing 398 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: these symptoms, or at least wealthy women who could afford 399 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: to go to doctors, they had been describing these kinds 400 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: of PMS symptoms, but like in terms of the physical 401 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: stuff and even some of the psychological symptoms. But the 402 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: question then is how much of it though, is sort 403 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: of it's the chicken in the egg of how much 404 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: is it just assumed that we're going to feel awful 405 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: and we automatically link irritability and moodiness to menstruation, and 406 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: how much of that might just be irritability and moodiness 407 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: possibly brought on by other things. Yeah, just like life, life, 408 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: my life making us moody. Well, we're going to get 409 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: way more into basically modern psychology and different groups take 410 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: on the constructs of PMS and we get right back 411 00:27:52,359 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: from a quick break. So when we left off, we 412 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: had just walked through a pretty pretty long medical history 413 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: of the concepts of menstruation and PMS like symptoms, and 414 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: a lot of it explains why for so long women 415 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: have considered periods both a blessing and a curse, because 416 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: on the one hand, there's always been that idea that 417 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: we need to have one because it is cathartic, it's cleansing, 418 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: our bodies need to get rid of that excess fluid 419 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: excess and quotes fluid and endometrial tissue. But at the 420 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: same time, the other side of that coin is a 421 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: curse because of the assumed physical um discomforts along with it. 422 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: But also this question of the psychological instability that that 423 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: purging process might bring along with it. So when we 424 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: get into like the social constructs of what PMS means 425 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: to people, women in particular have cons rude PMS as 426 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: both a positive construct in a negative one, because, Hey, 427 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: now that we know more about the indo chronology, about 428 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: our hormones, about the science of it, it's a good 429 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: thing and it should be taken seriously. This is a 430 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: thing that women experience and we need to learn more 431 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: about it. On the flip side of that, however, the 432 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: more we know about PMS, and the more it's tied 433 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: to mood in some people's minds, the more it is 434 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: used to discount women and what we say and oh, 435 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: she's just p ms NG, she's moody, she's out of 436 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: her mind. We shouldn't listen to her. Well, and also 437 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: think about how we euphemistically refer to our periods. It is, 438 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's the curse, it's your monthly malady. It's 439 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: all we we tend to describe it in negative terms. 440 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: It's your uninvited guests, it's aunt flow. And does anyone 441 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: ever like ask her to stay? Now? She probably brings 442 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: a fruitcake, she probably does bring a fruitcake. And because 443 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: of this background of path apologizing PMS in the sense 444 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: of assuming making those assumptions about how it renders women 445 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: unstable and unreliable, some cultural anthropologists have called it a 446 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: Western construct, which quote get ready for this legitimizes the 447 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: temporary and politically ineffective expression of suppressed irritation, rage, or 448 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: similarly negative unfeminine feelings, which result in particular from the 449 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: status and condition of women in late industrial society. Wow. Yeah, well, 450 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: so basically a lot of people have claimed that women 451 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: and men have claimed that PMS is kind of an 452 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: excuse to let women kind of let loose in terms 453 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: of not being that prim and proper, quiet, well behaved 454 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: woman anymore. That it's a monthly excuse to actually feel feelings. 455 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: And you know, like I said, that's been used in 456 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: both a positive and a negative direction, right, because on 457 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: the positive end, when it comes to feminist critiques of 458 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: PMS research and this potential uh sort of cultural construct, 459 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: that part of it might have become. On the one hand, 460 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: particularly in the seventies and eighties, feminists were among the 461 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: biggest champions of conducting more research to find out that 462 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: question of what's actually going on, why does it happen 463 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: in particularly for women who have more PMDD like symptoms, 464 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: what is going on? And hey, well we're at it, 465 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: let's reduce this stigma, and yet calling into question that 466 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: possible side of it too. That's kind of the most 467 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: public facing side of menstruation. That the side that we 468 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 1: talk about the most, not the actual biological part that 469 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: includes bleeding and how it affects our bodies, but more 470 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: just making jokes about bms. That's what's okay to talk 471 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: about this whole potential, socially constructed part of it, right exactly. 472 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: I remember in middle school one of my science teachers 473 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: making the joke so like not many kids had gotten 474 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: their periods yet, but making the joke in talking about 475 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: biology of never trust anything that bleeds for four days 476 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: and doesn't die. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that was my 477 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: seventh grade science teacher. But yeah, basically, you know, a 478 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: lot of feminists in this period called into question the 479 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: construct that allowed something biological happening to women to be 480 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: linked to a dismissal of their emotions, especially anger, by 481 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: attributing them to this thing that happens every month, and 482 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: just the idea that, um, well, she must not be 483 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: angry most of the time. This is just like a 484 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: problem she's having this week, or if you encounter a 485 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: woman who is upset, irritable, whatever other synonymy you would 486 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: like to fill in that blank, and the first question is, oh, 487 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: are you on your period? So it allows people to 488 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: totally discount a legitimate issue or claim or problem um 489 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: at the same time that it kind of makes the 490 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: indirect assumption that men never have either hormonal shifts or 491 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: problems with it yeah or if there yeah, But and 492 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: by the same token that if they are expressing anger irritability, 493 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: that it's valid in a way that ours is irrational. 494 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: And this was something that Mari Roden talked about in 495 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: paper that she wrote, the Social Construction of pre Menstrual Syndrome, 496 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: and she points out how, going back to that history 497 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: that we went through in it was thought that the 498 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: quote madness of the female lunatic becomes more pronounced at 499 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: the time of menstruation. She also notes how Dr pattering A. 500 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: Dalton attributed the stereotype of women as poor drivers to 501 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: p MS thank you very much way after Dalton's yeah, 502 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: way to not help a sister out and she describes 503 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: PMS as a Western quote unquote safety valve. Yeah, and 504 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: Rodin also cites sociologist Karen Pugliessi who says that this 505 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: is like when the pressure to quote have it all 506 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: gets symbolically released once a month, so another excuse to 507 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: let your you know, irritation flag fly or an excuse. 508 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: And also that that permissible window and it might have 509 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: jumped out of some listeners that we've been describing this 510 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: as a Western construct, because when I was reading this, 511 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: the question did come to mind of well, is this universal? 512 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: Is this really exclusive to Western cultures, because there are 513 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: menstrual taboos all around the world in all different sorts 514 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: of cultures, But it does seem like this particular pathologizing 515 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: of PMS is fairly Western, especially when when it comes 516 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: to that sort of moodiness where a lot of times 517 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: menstrual taboos are more focused on cleanliness or the absence 518 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: thereof associated with the actual bleeding. Like in some cultures, 519 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: for instance, you know, women aren't allowed to bathe in 520 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: the same water they might interfere with the luck of fishermen, 521 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, every day. But you know, it seems like 522 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: in our culture, a woman who is either on her 523 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 1: period or experiencing pre menstrual symptoms is a cathy comic. Well, 524 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: and it's also it widens the window of instability in 525 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, kind of makes women even more 526 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: unreliable because it's pre menstrual and when could that come? 527 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: Oh well, I don't know, two weeks before your period, 528 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: who knows. Katerina Dalton went back and revised her first 529 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: of all in the nineties. She said that, you know, 530 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: PMS isn't even a correct term because this kind of 531 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: moodiness construct at any point, and so we really believe 532 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: that then that means that women are really like never 533 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: reliable because at any point this switch could be flipped 534 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: and our menstrual effortvencence could start to bubble over into 535 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: insanity and tears and chocolate eating. Well yeah, and I 536 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: mean I think that leads us into talking about pm 537 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: d D because that's I think an even bigger example 538 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: of the good and the bad in terms of legit 539 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote legitimizing pre menstrual symptoms and what menstruation does 540 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: to women. Because uh, pm d D pre minstrual dysphoric 541 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: disorder was listed in the DSM five, but there was 542 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: a lot of controversy around it because it doesn't affect 543 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: that many women, but it does give a basis to 544 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: diagnose women who are experiencing these symptoms with a mental disorder. 545 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: And writing about that, Dr Paula Kaplan, who wrote the 546 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: book They Say You're Crazy, talks about how including pm 547 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: d D in the diagnostic Statistical Manual means that emotional 548 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: display is considered normal or fine or whatever, and men 549 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: are seen as mental disorders and women, and she wonders 550 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: why people aren't calling men's hormonal changes mental illness. Well. 551 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: Menstruation in of itself makes it easier to draw that 552 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: link between your biological functioning and your psychological functioning because 553 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: you have physical evidence of this change going on inside 554 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: of you. I e. Menstrual blood, I eat your period panties, Caroline, 555 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: let's be honest, um, And we don't want to discount 556 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: the fact that these kinds of PMDD symptoms do happen. Statistically, 557 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: two to three percent of women experience pre menstrual dysphoric 558 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: disorder and the way it is described UM. In one 559 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: of the articles we were reading about it, from one 560 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: woman who has been diagnosed with PMDD is that she 561 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: literally becomes another person leading up to her period. Now, 562 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: once menstruation happens, the symptoms tend to go away. Um. 563 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 1: But there was an issue with this drug that was 564 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: on the market, seraph m uh in. The FDA actually 565 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: had to pull ads for seraphim because it did not 566 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: disambiguate PMDD from PMS. Essentially, it just was a commercial 567 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: of a woman, say like pushing a grocery cart and 568 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: having a little difficulty and then going cozily and I 569 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: being like, maybe you need seraphim. Yes. So basically the 570 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: FDA took issue with Eli Lily, the drug manufacturer, saying like, 571 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: are you having a bad day? Well, maybe you're crazy 572 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: and need medicine. Because the whole thing is that the 573 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: FDA Okay, seraph I'm in two thousand, but it's identical 574 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: to Prozac, which is an S S R I and adepressant, 575 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: and it was about to go generic and Eli Lily 576 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: wanted to keep making money so they rebranded it, painted 577 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: it pink and called it a p M d D drug. Well, 578 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: and clearly in this case too, more research is needed, 579 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: and a lot of doctors acknowledge that the more research 580 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: is needed on this because there is that question of 581 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: how how to untangle the clinical depression from the menstrual 582 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: related influencers that seemed to aggravate those symptoms of depression. 583 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: So the question is which comes first a PMDD or 584 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: the depression, and researchers still aren't entirely sure. And then 585 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: taking it a few steps back, like you said, it's 586 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: inclusion in the d s M five. I've got a 587 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: lot of people nervous that, oh, we're just pathologizing this 588 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: even more, we're pathologizing PMS even more, even though what 589 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: we do need is clearly more research on it. Yeah, 590 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: And one thing that Kristen and I were talking about 591 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: when we were researching this stuff is how interesting it 592 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: is that it is sort of a chicken or the 593 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: egg situation when it comes to PMDD and to a 594 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: lesser extent, PMS and depression, because researchers have found that 595 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: the symptoms of PMDD are usually alleviated by S S 596 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: R I drugs UM, although it does differ from woman 597 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: to woman, and other studies have shown that PMDD symptoms 598 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: respond well to calcium carbonate a K A TOMS. But 599 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: it is interesting because I mean, here are these terrible 600 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 1: symptoms that a number of women experience every month that 601 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: are aggravated every month, but it's so closely tied to 602 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: depression for these PMDD stuffers. So the fact that we 603 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: don't know more about what causes it and that we're 604 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: still having to have the conversation of don't call me 605 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: crazy just because I have this thing that happens once 606 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: a month, I mean, I feel like it's we should 607 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: know more well, and that goes for pretty much anyone 608 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: who has a period. Don't call me crazy because I 609 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: have this thing that happens once a month. And so, 610 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: and that's why we wanted to do this episode as well, 611 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: because I know that it made me really think twice 612 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: about how what I think about periods and how it's framed, 613 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: and how we're taught about menstruation and this assumption of PMS, 614 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: specifically with the mood aspect of that, and how that 615 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: impacts women all together, because it's not the last thing 616 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: we need is to say, oh, women, you know this 617 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: doesn't exist. Just just buck up. It's just a little 618 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: bloating No, clearly, I I know I know some women 619 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:03,879 Speaker 1: who get really regular and very aggressive PMS symptoms yeah. 620 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,439 Speaker 1: I mean I went to high school with a girl 621 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: who had to be out of school once a month, 622 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: like for a day because she felt so ill. Oh yeah, 623 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: the cramping, bloating, fatigue, all that kind of stuff. That 624 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: stuff is very real and it does not need to 625 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: be legitimized. But the question is where do we how 626 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: do we disentangle that stuff from the stuff that we 627 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: actually are okay talking about. I just think that that's 628 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,280 Speaker 1: the strangest thing is that we are the least comfortable 629 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: talking about the physical symptoms, and yet we're fine making 630 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: so many jokes about the psychological symptoms. But now we 631 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: want to hear from listeners what are your experiences with PMS, 632 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: and also how do we address this question of disentangling 633 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: the symptoms of PMS that we do experience and are 634 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: very real and valid from the more social, really constructed 635 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: aspects of it that might do women more harm than good. 636 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: Let us know Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works dot 637 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: Com is our email address. You can also message us 638 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast, and 639 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you 640 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: right now. Black I'll let her hear from Scott me 641 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: about her episode a little while ago on black Hair, 642 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: and she writes, I was so excited to hear the 643 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,760 Speaker 1: curly hair conundrums and black hair episodes because I have both, 644 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,479 Speaker 1: and not only did you all offer so many great 645 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: resources on the topic, it was just so nice to 646 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: hear it being talked about. It's easy even for me 647 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: to wonder if I'm just being oversensitive about my hair 648 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: and all my preoccupations about it. I often have to 649 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: remind myself that it really is more of a complex 650 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: issue than simple fashion trends, especially when it comes to 651 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: my professional image, not to mention the dating world. I'm 652 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: what I like to call Blaxican Latina mom, black dad, 653 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: and through my childhood, my curly, frizzy, and seemingly unruly 654 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: hair was always a huge topic of concerned conversation and altercations. 655 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: One of my most vivid memories growing up was the 656 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: first time I had my hair straighten at a black 657 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: beauty shop and went to school the next day. I 658 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: was a sophomore in high school, and I remember everything 659 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 1: what I was wearing, and I remember walking across the 660 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: campus holding my books, looking demurely down because I was 661 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: sure everyone would be staring at me because finally I 662 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: thought my hair was beautiful. It was actually blowing in 663 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,919 Speaker 1: the wind, and strands of it would blow across my face, 664 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: and I was so excited to sweep it behind my 665 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: ear like all the other girls always did. That was 666 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: the first day I heard someone tell me your hair 667 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: looks so much better straight, and I didn't have a 668 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: boyfriend or significant other to tell me otherwise until I 669 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: was out of grad school. Recently, my little sister asked 670 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: if I thought she should go all natural, and I 671 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: was so eager to send her videos like I Love 672 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: my Hair and links to the Curly Girl Collective to 673 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: help pursuit for herself that going all natural is not 674 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: the social suicide it once used to be. Thanks for 675 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: all you do. I love the program and recommend it 676 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: to all the other Peace Score volunteers I work with. 677 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: So thanks Scott. Me okay, and I have a letter 678 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: here from Megan in response to our vegetarian conversation. Uh. 679 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: She says, I went vegetarian ten years ago and then 680 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: vegan five years ago. I did so for ethical reasons, 681 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: but also gained health benefits, which probably really helped. I 682 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: also was introduced to feminism through veganism. As I met 683 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: many feminist vegans who were more than happy to share 684 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: feminist books and websites with me. I was so inspired 685 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: I actually ended up with a gender studies minor. When 686 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: I went back to university and met even more vegetarians 687 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: and vegans through feminist activism, the two communities always overlapped 688 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: for me. But it is also a challenge, as you 689 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,439 Speaker 1: pointed out in your podcast, with issues such as Peter 690 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: using sexism to try and gain male membership and vegetarianism 691 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: used as a diet and pushing unhelp the body ideals. 692 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: I also noticed when a new vegan cookbook comes out, 693 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: there's often bad reviews left more and more often about 694 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: how unhealthy it is if it isn't completely fat free 695 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: or uses any sugar at all. Recently, a review on 696 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: Amazon even shame the author of a favorite vegan cookbook 697 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: for not being thin and looking quote unhealthy. So I've 698 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,760 Speaker 1: noticed increasing amounts of fleck towards ethical vegans and vegetarians 699 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: from the more health and diet focused ones for failing 700 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: to live up to a pretty high standard from meat eaters. 701 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of hostility in the past from boyfriends, 702 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: so the statistic about singles being more likely to be 703 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: vegetarian makes a lot of sense to me. I've even 704 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: been asked if my current boyfriend is okay with it, 705 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,360 Speaker 1: and once if he allows it. I found the statistic 706 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: that women under report meat eating to be interesting because 707 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,720 Speaker 1: I've had female friends bring up my vegetarianism to brag 708 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: about how much meat they eat so they can bond 709 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,320 Speaker 1: over that with any men in our company, but definitely 710 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: have noted in my feminist groups, at least most are 711 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: happy to bond over vegetarian food. Okay, So Megan closes 712 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: her letter was sayings, sorry for making this such a 713 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 1: long letter. I enjoyed the podcast very much, and your 714 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: apology she's writing to me for bringing up bacon so 715 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: much is accepted Smiley Faith. So thank you for writing in, Megan, 716 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you know that I'm joking about all 717 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 1: the bacon, although I do love it. But thanks for 718 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: writing in, and thanks everybody who's written into us. Mom 719 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email 720 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: address and to find links to all of our social 721 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,480 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 722 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: including this one with links to our sources. So you 723 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: can read along. It's all found over It's stuff Mom 724 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: Never told you dot com For more on this and 725 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics, Is It How stuff Works dot 726 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: com