1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Steer when I end up that so much I had, 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: I had awesome wells reading a selfish giant on a 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: raca that I listened to, and I was about five 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: or six. And this is my garden. It is. It 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: is so brilliant. Anyone find it for everybody should listen 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: to it. The children are my flowers. Yes, I only 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: have to hear those. And I can smell an old 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: fashioned gramophone and the reference that went on, you know 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: that dusty smells. It warmed up with the crackle. Hello, 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: I'm mini driver and welcome to many questions. I've always 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: loved pruce questionnaire. It was originally an eighteenth century parlor 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: game meant to reveal an individual's true nature. But with 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: so many questions, there wasn't really an opportunity to expand 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: on anything. So I took the format of Pruce's questionnaire 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: and adapted what I think seven of the most important 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: questions you could ever ask someone. They are when and 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: where were you happiest? What is the quality you like 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: for you? What question would you most like answered? What person, place, 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: your last meal? And can you tell me something in 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: your life that has grown out of a personal disaster. 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: The more people we ask, the more we begin to 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: see what makes us similar and what makes us individual. 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people who I 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: am honored and humbled to have had a chance to 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: engage with. In last week's episode, we heard Steven's answers 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: to when and where were you happiest. You think of 29 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: something a sunny day on the beach or in a park, 30 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: maybe that you're very young, to your mother's let you 31 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: skip along to buy an ice cream, and you're looking 32 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: down at the ducks with your brother and everybody's with you, 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: and you're content. You then do something physical like pull 34 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: out your ear lobe the idea of being. All you 35 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: have to do is twist your ear lobe and you 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: will get that memory. What relationship real or fictionalize. It 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: defines love for you and love love love, and all 38 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: you need is love and love this and love that. 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: And it made no sense. And then suddenly it hit 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: me that it was the only thing in the world 41 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: that mattered, That nothing else had any significance at all 42 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: except this absolute loss of self into the idea of 43 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: someone else, and what person, place, or experience has most 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: altered your life. I said, I've seen this thing, and 45 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: I explained it. She said, oh, that was the importance 46 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: of being earnest. Here is the last part of our conversation. 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: She could have any question answered, what would it be 48 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: such a good question itself? This one answer this question 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: for me. I mean, at the risk of sounding very uh, 50 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: I've always got to sound pompous, but the extra pomp 51 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: us I am very interested in those called philosophical questions. 52 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: Instantly makes them sound like a sort of game or 53 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: intellectual quest, and I think they're more exciting than that. 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: Although those are exciting things in themselves, those do actually 55 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: sound quite fun. Yeah, they do, I hope, so an 56 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: intellectual quest. Yeah. It is the nature of consciousness. It's 57 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: how it is that we can have this sense of self, 58 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: of who we are manufactured in a wet but electrically 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: sparkling object like a brain in our heads, that it 60 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: can create such a powerful sense of self that is 61 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: not just the thing you see in the mirror, whose 62 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: voice you hear in your own ears, and whose effect 63 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: you see in other people. That it's also the entire 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: sense of moral obligation, guilt, shame, love, passion, all these 65 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: things that animate us, and that drivers and I just 66 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: feel very strongly that it won't survive after my heart 67 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: stops beating, excepting other people's memories or recordings of this podcast, 68 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: all the rest of it. And yet that that isn't satisfactory. 69 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: It's still a mystery, and it is still the mystery. 70 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: It's known in philosophy is the hard problem, the hard 71 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: problem of consciousness, and people have come up with ideas 72 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: that are crazy. I mean they're matrix like the universe 73 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: itself is conscious. That there is a consciousness in the universe. 74 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: And this is said by philosophers of great a clap 75 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: in universities around the world. It just fascinates me because 76 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: I good animals and I love animals. We have a sense, 77 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: don't we. It's very hard to prove, but I think 78 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: we prove it to ourselves in all the ways that matter, 79 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: that animals don't share this particular quality of self consciousness. Yes, 80 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: we've all seen a cat look a bit ruffled and 81 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: embarrassed when it's fallen over, and it's sort of sort 82 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: of proudly sits up, so you know, we impute very 83 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: human ideas of dignity and self regard to certain animals 84 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: that we live with closely. And of course animals that 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: live with us closely mimic us in just as we 86 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: mimic then, But the animal kingdom generally, I look, say 87 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: this is the animal use because I'm so fond of them. 88 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: But an Amazonian tree frog on a branch with that 89 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: enormous grin on its face, and there's wonderful sort of 90 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: silicon rubber fingers with a little round ends clutching onto 91 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: the branch, And I see in that tree frog an 92 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: animal that spends one of its time being a tree frog, 93 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: achieving tree frog nous completely. And I am as certain 94 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: as I can be of anything that it doesn't wake 95 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: up in the morning thinking I was a terrible tree frog. 96 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: Ust today I hate myself. Look what I did to 97 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: to to my to Mrs tree Frog. Look Look how 98 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: I ignored my children in any sense like that. And 99 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: you laugh because it is of course preposterous to imagine 100 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: a tree frog thinking that. But every single human being 101 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: on earth does that all the time. We don't feel 102 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: we are a hundred percent what we could be, and 103 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: that's a most peculiar thing, a very very strange thing. 104 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: If we accept that no animal has this sense of 105 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: yearning to be better, yearning to have a greater moral force, 106 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: yearning to to achieve more. Yes they want to have 107 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: a full of belly. Yes they want to get their 108 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: rocks off. Yes they want to protect that brood. Of 109 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: course they have these urges instincts, but they're very clear, 110 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: very evolutionarily and necessary and transparent as motives and energies 111 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: as it were. But what philosophers called our deontic sense, 112 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: this sense of obligation and moral purpose that we have 113 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: within us. What the matter count said, this moral law 114 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: within me. It's a very strong sense. And we can 115 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: argue that it's all kinds of people do. There's a 116 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: Freudian argument about it. There's a religious argument about it. 117 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of explanations for why we might have it, 118 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: and they go back to Genesis. For Genesis is because 119 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: they are the fruit. It's part of our particular evolution. 120 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: It is it is something that evolved that the tree. 121 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: For our gwen namic, I'm not evolving any moral nightmare. 122 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to judge anything except how much I 123 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: think I'm going to get to eat today. I feel 124 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: like it's the gift and the curse that we carried 125 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: on exploring. We carry it on growing, we carried on expanding. 126 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: This speech is that we are part of and there 127 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: is great joy on that, and there is awfulness in that. 128 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: It's the experience. It's the will cut idea of learning 129 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: to love the questions. Yes, no, that's right. We made 130 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: at some point in our history what's some people called 131 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: the cognitive leap, which involves both behavioral modernity. I think 132 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: is the correct phrase for it, I tool making. So first, 133 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: we started altering the environment around us to create objects 134 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: and spaces that were useful to us in a way 135 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: that was beyond animals. An animal might make a nest, 136 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: but it's the same nest through the generations. That's how 137 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: bluebirds make their nest. Whereas two different humans in just 138 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: two generations can say, no, I'm going to build my 139 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: nest like this and I'm going to use this, and 140 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: another one will say I'm going to repurpose this whole 141 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: in the ere I'm going to that's behavioral modernity, which 142 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: is one branch of our evolution, and another, of course 143 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: was language. But the big question, and part of the 144 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: hard problem is did language come as a result of 145 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: self consciousness or did self consciousness come as a result 146 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: of language, which is what James would say, who wrote 147 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: this fantastic Boo, which is a huge influence on me, 148 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: called this is such a terrible title, that the origin 149 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind. I 150 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: know it's an absurd title. I bet that doesn't come 151 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: in a paperback. No, it's I think it's so inaudible. Okay, 152 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: are you reading it, because I'll get it if you are. No, 153 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm not. I'd love to if it's but I'd recommend 154 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: anyone to read it. It's not too tougher. It's beautifully written, 155 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: and I'm not saying I agree with all of it, 156 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: but it probably expresses these questions I'm trying to articulate 157 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: better than any book I've ever read. And, like all 158 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: things to do with learning, the more you know, the 159 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: more filled with wonder you are, not the less explanations 160 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: don't close down beauty and miracle, they open them up. 161 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: That's my firm conviction. Another great here in mind, Richard 162 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: Feynman had a fabulously famous not rant but sort of 163 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: spiel about this where he's explaining to an artist why 164 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: he finds a flower more beautiful than the artist does. 165 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: And in fact, Fineman curse him was a wonderful draftsman 166 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: that drew and painted fabulously, as well as getting a 167 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: Nobel price physics and all the other things he did. 168 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: But he explained how he had the sense of the 169 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: flowers fragility, the beauty, the shimmering of the color, the 170 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: erotic quality like someone like Mattlethorpe found in flowers, you know, 171 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: all these things he could see. But then he also 172 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: knew enough biology to have an understanding of the sepals 173 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: and stamens and all the other But he could go 174 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: deeper than that. He could look into the compillary system 175 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: and see how the energy of the food and sugar 176 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: and starches that were going from the ground, and how 177 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: they were selected by the flowers roots and how they moved. 178 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: And he could go deeper into that, and he could 179 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: see the protons and the positives, and he could see 180 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: the electrons. He see the whole miracle of the universe 181 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: focusing its astonishing nature into the creation of a flower. 182 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: And as he says, you know, we stop and look 183 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: at a red flower? How is it red? When it's 184 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: all very well to say it's DNA tells it to 185 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: go red, But how does it then do it? It 186 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: has to select out of the chemicals that are in 187 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: the earth, only the ones which, when put together in 188 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: its little factory, make the color red. If I took 189 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: a handful of earth, I couldn't make a red diet 190 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 1: of it, not as red as a dahlia. And it's 191 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: two of the animals. All those colors come from the 192 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: food and drink that they eat, energized by the sunlight, 193 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: and and they can be that blue or that yellow, 194 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: and they're just growing out of a garden in Dorking. 195 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: You know, there's that color, and we don't even stop 196 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: to think about where it actually comes from. It's fantastic. 197 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: We are distracted. Yeah, And so I'd like to know 198 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: why I'm aware of this. I'd like to know where 199 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: my awareness comes from. I'm just so fascinated by it 200 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: because it's so possible to live fabulous lives as a 201 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: tiger can without it. I like that. I like that 202 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: very very very very much. Can you tell me about 203 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: one particular thing that has grown out of a complete disaster. 204 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean my whole life. Alan Cumming. I 205 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: asked Alan this question and I said, so, so can 206 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: you tell me something that's growing out of personal disaster? 207 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: And he was like yeah, me, Well, yes, I've read 208 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: his I read his incredible book about his father. I mean, 209 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: the bottom man he is. He's such a fabulous Oh 210 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: he's a man, amazing, he's amazing. But again, if you 211 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: haven't read Alan Cumby's book, Not My Father's Son, heart 212 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: wrenching and brilliant it is. And of course he's produced 213 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: a line of fragrance. Yeah, of course he has. If 214 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: your name was coming, you would want to advise people 215 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: to spread coming all over their face when it's not 216 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: tell me about growth and personal disaster. One of my 217 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: passions was Sherlock Holmes at school, and I had been 218 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: the youngest member of the Sherlock Holmbs Society of London 219 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: and I got this request, not request, It was an 220 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: invitation to all members to go to a meeting in 221 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: London of the Shallockomb Society. And I was going to 222 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 1: present a paper. I was going to do a talk 223 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: on the correlation between T. S Elliott and Mariarty. Oh 224 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: my god, yes, It was the fact that mccavity the 225 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: Mystery Cat is directly based on Mariarty. A lot of 226 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: not people hadn't noticed that, and I had. I didn't 227 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: know that anyway, So so that was my big thing. 228 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: And I got permission from my house master to go 229 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: to London. People who read Harry Potter now what house 230 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: masters are now, Thank goodness, they don't have to explain 231 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: it's my Minerva McGonagle or whatever. My Severest Snape signed 232 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: Maggie Smith. My Maggie Smith signed a chit so that 233 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: I could go to London anyway. The idea was I 234 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: go for this event, stay overnight, and then come back 235 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: the next day. Well, the next day I went to 236 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: the cinema. And in those days you could go into 237 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: a cinema and sit there all day, and they just 238 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: want to show the same film again and again. And 239 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: I saw the film Cabaret again and again and again. 240 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: It was absolutely overwhelmed by it. And then I went 241 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: to the Sea the Godfather, and then I went to 242 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: see Fritz the Cat, which was an animated adult cartoon. 243 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: Rember that I was fifteen, but somehow I could pass 244 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: his eighteen if I had quite my voice had just 245 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: broken and it was quite deep. And anyway, I got 246 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: expelled from the school. I was sent to another school, 247 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: which I got expelled from, and then another one, and 248 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: then I ran away to London, and then I stole 249 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: some credit cards from a coach in a pub, and 250 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: eventually I was caught by the police in Swindon, of 251 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: all unromantic towns, and sent to a prison to await trial. 252 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: How old were you by this time? I had seventeen 253 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: a baby, yeah, I know, and you were sent a 254 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: proper prison. Yeah. And I had spent this credit card 255 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: over so many different counties that it took about two 256 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: and after three months for all the paperwork to be 257 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: assembled by the police for me then to go to 258 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: a court. Now, because I'd run away from home, I 259 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: originally not told them who what my name was because 260 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: I didn't want my parents to get involved because I'd 261 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: already called them enough trouble with all these expulsions. But 262 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: eventually they found out who I was, and my parents 263 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: got a friend of those who was a barrister to 264 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: come and represent me when I was in court. And 265 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: the fact that I've done three months in prison on remand, 266 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: and that it was the first offense, and I guess 267 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: that I had an expensive lawyer, which my parents tally 268 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: wasn't charging. He was being a friend. Meant that instead 269 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: of going down for two years detention center or Boston 270 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: or anything like that young Person's Offenders institution, I was 271 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: put on two years probation. And you can imagine the 272 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: car drive home from Wiltshire to Norfolk, and that's just 273 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: I mean. And my parents, you know, they're just wonderful, supportive, 274 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: lovely people, and my mother never doubted somehow everything would 275 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: turn out right, and my father was more taciturn about it. 276 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: But they basically said it's up to me now. They 277 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: put me through enough schools. And it was while I 278 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: was in prison that something had snapped, and I think 279 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: it was really that for about a month I was 280 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: sharing a cell with this kid from Wales who was 281 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: about sixteen and a half seventeen, was just a bit 282 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: younger than me, and he couldn't read. He literally was illiterate. 283 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: I had never seen anything. I just never occurred to 284 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: me that someone would be and I taught him. I 285 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: taught him the alphabet, I taught him to write it out, 286 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: and I taught him basic words in that time. It 287 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: was an extraordinary experience, and it hammered home to me 288 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: like a sledge Hammond extraordinary, just how I had wasted 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: these golden opportunities. Because you know, I'm not painting myself 290 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: as some Francis of ASSISI or some albich fights. So 291 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't suddenly turned into this humanitarian philanthropist. 292 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: But I did see that my opportunities had been so 293 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: much greater than anybody else's, and that it was a 294 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: disgrace for me to moan inside and to think that 295 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: the world was against me. I needed no more education 296 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: than all of that, and so I said that if 297 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: I get out, when I get out of this, I'm 298 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: going to put myself through and get to university. And 299 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: I'd always set my heart on Cambridge. A lot of 300 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: my sort of hearers e m forced people like that. 301 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: So I went to the library and took out past 302 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: papers on Oxbridge Entrance and paid someone. I took jobs 303 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: in restaurants and bars and things, and paid someone to 304 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: invigilate because they didn't at the local college do Oxbridge Entrance. 305 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: I paid him to invigilate, so he get the papers 306 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: and make sure I wasn't cheating, and I'd hand him 307 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: them and he'd send them. And my parents knew I 308 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: was doing this and they were very supportive. So I 309 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: was still living at home. And then I got fed 310 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: up waiting for the results to come through my camidg entrance. 311 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: So I went into Norwich one day and I was 312 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: in a cafe and I told my mother, I said, 313 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: I'm going in. If a letter comes for me and 314 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: it looks as if it might be the results, you 315 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: can open it and ring me at this cafe. And 316 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 1: so she called. I was in the cafe with friends 317 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: and I said, how did a letter I and she 318 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: said no. I said, what are you calling me? She 319 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: said no, it wasn't a letter. Was a telegram? Is 320 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: it a telegram? What? My immediately feeling guilty, I've been 321 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: found out about something, EXTRA said no, it says congratulations 322 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: awarded scholarship Queen's College admissions tutor. I said, read that again. 323 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: She read it again and not just got in the 324 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: scholarsh And I said, slightly, making me cry remembering it, 325 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: because it was those moments that there were the pivot 326 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: which my whole life turned from from what had been 327 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: failure and disgrace and sliding down into a sort of 328 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: self pittying mess. I had just pulled myself up by 329 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: by my fingernails in time, and then really going to 330 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: Cambridge and as the same meeting Emma and then Hugh 331 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 1: and loving it so much and feeling a part of it, 332 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: feeling as if I belonged for the first time in 333 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: a world where ideas were spoken about, and where I 334 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: could perform and feel natural and be out. I could 335 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: be gay and nobody minded. And so it was that 336 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: it was being it was I presented as a cartoon 337 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: of me lying face down on stone flags with straw 338 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: and the shadows of the prisoner and a rat crawling 339 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: over my back. It wasn't quite that bad, but you 340 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: know what I mean, From that low point, it was 341 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: a miracle that I was able, and fully aware that 342 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: a lot of it was the advantage of my upbringing. 343 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: But but I just don't think you can have one 344 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: without the other. I just I don't think of it 345 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: in terms of payment, that those hardships our payment for 346 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: the good, but that they are inextricably linked. They are 347 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: they are part of the same experience. I do wonder 348 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: what happened to that Welshman who you taught to read. Yes, 349 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: I lost touch with him. Of course, it must be 350 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: funny for him to see you, because I'm sure that 351 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: he's seeing you in his life. And yeah, they called 352 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: me in prison, they called me the professor. That was 353 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: my nick because I'm sort of new things and had 354 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,959 Speaker 1: read books. And I'm imagining you rather like Hugh Grant 355 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: and Paddington too. I'd love to think I was a 356 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: stylish but there was an element of that. And I 357 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: also played the piano of the Sunday there were hymns, 358 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: voluntary hymns in the association room, and I used to 359 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: play the piano. And I'm not at all good, but 360 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a typical show off, so I you know, 361 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: I learned these kind of our pagis and things. So 362 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: I would end these ordinary hymns with this, these huge 363 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: p edges, and then dumb, dumb the chaplain would look 364 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: at me to check whether I'm finished. Very silly, but 365 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: of course you know that fun in its way. So 366 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: what would be your last meal? I love it because 367 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: it's a pristing question, but it's also so fundamentally human. 368 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: Yeah it is, isn't it. And I go two ways, 369 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: and that strikes at the heart of what a lot 370 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: of us are like. I think is that one part 371 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: of me wants to say he had to vote ala 372 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: Veronique or whatever, you know, some fantastic meal that I 373 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: once had at the water side or the fat duck 374 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: or some you know. And I've been lucky enough to 375 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: have some great food in my time. But another part 376 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: of me wants to say, I want beans on toast 377 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: with a couple of poached eggs. Yeah, I want that 378 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: right now, And yeah, I think I would probably go 379 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: for that. And you know what once like that with 380 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: music and literature, Do I want to listen to Wagner 381 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: now or actually would just yeah exactly, with just some 382 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: some silly, silly, charming music, do me quite happen it, 383 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: but on the kinks, just for fun, you know. And 384 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: the point is we're lucky because we can have both. 385 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: I remember Richard Curtis set saying this to me, you know, 386 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: the great writer of so many popular British films and 387 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: of course a colleague of Roan's in the early days, 388 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: and the found of comic Relief, and much as he 389 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: has a passion for pop music, and in his youth 390 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: he once it was possible. He recorded every single Top 391 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 1: of the Pops and his close friend at Oxford with 392 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: Rowan was Howard good All, the composer who wrote the 393 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: Blackadder theme and the theme and other things that Richard 394 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: had done, as well as many many other successful things. 395 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: Is wonderful, talented manner, and of course he's also done 396 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: documentaries about classical music for PBC two and Channel four. 397 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: And I remember sitting in I was a bit junior, 398 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: because I was two years below then when I was 399 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: at Cambridge, and I've only just got to know them, 400 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: and Richard was saying, how you know he was going 401 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: to send some singles to Howard, you know of this 402 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: particular bands that he should listen to, and how had said, well, 403 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: I'll send you some Marla then, and you listen to that, 404 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: which had said, well, I'll try and listen to it. 405 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: But I should warn you that my mind and soul 406 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: are not deep enough to appreciate it. I'm a very 407 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: light fellow and all I need is light entertainment. And 408 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, how very charming to confess such a thing. 409 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: This is a man who got a double First, he's 410 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: no idiot, but also I wonder if that's true, I mean, 411 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if that is it, and I thought, well, 412 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: maybe for him it is. Maybe also with Richard, he 413 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: doesn't want to investigate shine tortures into dark and upsetting 414 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: parts of his mind. Maybe there have to be people 415 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: who are the champions of the confection that makes us happy, 416 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: of the things which allow us to just remain. I mean, 417 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: I feel like his films, particularly just allow you to 418 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: live in a place where it's clever and it's funny, 419 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: and there's community and ship works out, which is why 420 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: I dorepg Wood has as well. I love wood Has 421 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: for that reason. It's always sunny, and but Whild is 422 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: the same things work out in Wild, and things really 423 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: don't work out in Wild, I mean Wild. There's the 424 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: nascent point of the Oscar, of course, put it very 425 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: brilliantly into the mouth of Miss Prism in the Governors 426 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: in the importance of being earnest, in a brilliant clever line, 427 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: which she says, though she doesn't know how clever it is. 428 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: As she says it, she's admitting to her pupil all 429 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: sicily that she, in an earlier life, had written a 430 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: three volume novel Do not speak slightingly of the three 431 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: volume novels Cicily I myself in Happier Days wrote one, 432 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: and Cicily says, oh did it end happily? And Ms 433 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: Prison says the good ended happily, the bad ended unhappily. 434 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: That is what fiction means, which is really that, and 435 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: that is it. That's brilliant. I remember when I first 436 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: read say Evelyn War, and I was shocked and it 437 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: didn't work out how many times cruel and dreadful things 438 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: happened to people who don't deserve it. I felt the 439 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: same way reading Graham Green. I agree, why the terrible 440 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: things happen to lovely people and the awful people don't 441 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: get punished? And why the lovely things happened to terrible people? Exactly? 442 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. And it used to make 443 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: me crazy when I was a kid. That still does, 444 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: by the way, and why Wild was pre figuring a 445 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: twentieth century in which maybe the good wouldn't end happily 446 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: and then and fiction wouldn't start to mean something else. 447 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: But of course his joke of saying that's what fiction 448 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: means is in other words, it's a lie. And so 449 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's a very strong part of it. And 450 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: I had the pleasure. It's one of the great joys 451 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: of marrying someone younger than yourself is you can very 452 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,239 Speaker 1: often introduce them to things that have somehow missed and 453 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: that you, of course have caught. And I think everybody 454 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: in the world had seen it, but he had never 455 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: seen Singing in the Rain, and we watched it together. 456 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: He's now seen it three times because he was so 457 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: overwhelmed button as he said, he said, I've never seen 458 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: anything that so radiates joy from start to finish. It 459 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: isn't joyful and iron thinking when he said it. Of course, 460 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: that's right. That's what it is. To see Donald o'coma 461 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: singing make them laugh, just fills you with joy. It 462 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: is beautiful, every single number in that in that movie, 463 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: In the way that it's working together, it is pure joy. 464 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: And do you know, do you know the work of 465 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: Preston Sturgis that I'm sure you do. And he was 466 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: a writer director for those who don't know who operated 467 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: in the forties and fifties and wrote some extraordinary masterpieces 468 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: of film at which he directed as well with furious pace. 469 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: And one of them is called Sullivan's Travels. And you 470 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: may know something about it because it was a huge 471 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: influence on the Coen Brothers. It's about a film director 472 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: who's like Preston Sturgis and director of comedies. It's during 473 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: the depression and he's determined that his next movie won't 474 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: be a comedy because there are people out there suffering 475 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: and you know, the bums on the trains a out 476 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: of work. He's got to make a movie that is 477 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: for them, and he's got the movie in his head. 478 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: It's going to be called Oh Brother, were art Thou, which, 479 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: if you remember, the camera went on to make as 480 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: a fair. But that's the film he's going to make. 481 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: And his girlfriend is Veronica La and he's got these 482 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: he's got butlers, and that's wonderful Beverly Hills lifestyle. He 483 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: decides to become a bum. He throws away all his 484 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: good clothes and puts on tramps clothes, gets in a 485 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: box car on the train and goes through a series 486 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: of circumstances beyond his control. He gets accused of murder 487 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: and no one believes that he's a film diriter, and 488 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: he goes to a prisoner's hideous prison where he's chained 489 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: up and he's beaten and he lives his terrible life, 490 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: and the prisoners around him, of course, are absolutely at 491 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: the lowest EBB, but human being can be in America 492 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: chained together. And eventually he behaves well enough, he's tamed 493 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: so that he's allowed a privilege of going. And you 494 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: don't know what it is is you're watching the film, 495 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: you see suddenly this church, a black church, a black 496 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: Baptist church, where all the worshippers have just finished singing him, 497 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: and the preacher gets up and says to his flock 498 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: that we, you know, we have our guests now, and 499 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: we're to treat them with great politeness. And someone is 500 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: pulling a sheet down at the back of the hall 501 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: and income chained all the listeners and they're welcomed by 502 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: these church members and they're sat down and film begins 503 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: and you see Joel McCrae, who plays Sullivan, sitting there 504 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: looking angry, and all the prisoners around him, and they're miserable, 505 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: miserable men. And they start with this Disney cartoon, violent 506 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: silly cartoon, and everyone starts laughing and laughing and laughing, 507 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: and you see Joel McCray is the only one not laughing, 508 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: a face like thunder and slowly his face cracks and 509 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: he starts to laugh, and they're all laughing and laughing 510 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: and laughing and laughing, and his transformation anyway, Then the 511 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: plot carries on and finally someone sees his photograph who's 512 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: the friendly warden or whoever it is, and he tells 513 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: the prison people and it's discovered who he is, and 514 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: that the person he was accused of killing was himself. 515 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: That was what he was trying to explain, that he 516 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: was the one who was accused of killing. So it 517 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: was all very complicated. He gets back to the studio 518 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: and the producers, who so hated the idea of making 519 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: her brother where up say, now you can make your 520 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: brother where aren't you your world famous? You went down, 521 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: you put the bum And John mccrazy is, no, I'm 522 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: not going to make her brother where up there? I'm 523 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: going to make a comedy. And then the film ends 524 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: with this speech laughter may not be much, but it's 525 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: all some people have in this crazy caravan. Boy, that's it, 526 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: And then the fade in to the site of all 527 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: those prisoners with tears running down at their faces, laughing 528 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: and laughing and laughing. So basically, you want to be 529 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: eating beans on tasts with two poached eggs. Watching Sullivan's Travels. Yeah, 530 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: I love that movie, but I would venture that The 531 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: Lady Eve is the beta film. I grant you, it's 532 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: a must. It also made me feel, apart from that 533 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: Henry Founder was was the most handsome person I was 534 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: ever going to see in my life, unlovable. It made 535 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: me believe that that odd people can find each other. 536 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: And I knew I was odd, That's all I knew, 537 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: and that just it always made me think that there 538 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: was hope. And Barbara st Oh, my god, she's so divine. 539 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: Was She really was clever and beauty when she trips 540 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: him up on the boat. So that's if you're listening 541 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: and you don't know the work of Preston Sturgies, treat 542 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: yourself this weekend to a box set of the genuinely 543 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough. I mean, it's been such a 544 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: pleasure that I've taken notes as you were speaking. There 545 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: are books I'm going to read, there are words I'm 546 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: going to look up, there are movies I'm going to watch, 547 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: and there's beans on toasts to be made immediately. I 548 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: just completely adore you, and I so appreciate what you 549 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: put out into the world. Genuinely, it's amazing thing. That 550 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: is so sweet if you bless you, and I love 551 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: you too, and thank you for inviting me onto your 552 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: wonderful program and asking this question. Very very very welcome, 553 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: so appreciative well. Stephen Fry's latest book, Troy, is out 554 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: now from Chronicle Books in the US. It is the 555 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: brilliant conclusion to his best selling Mythos trilogy. Stephen's next book, 556 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: Fries Ties is out in November in the UK, published 557 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: by Penguin Michael Joseph, and it is a witty, illustrated 558 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: ode to his decades long obsession with Ties. Mini Questions 559 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer 560 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Brown. Original 561 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman, 562 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay, 563 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Annick Oppenheim 564 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: at w kPr, de La Pescadore, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg, 565 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: and for constantly solicited Tex support. Henry Driver