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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's

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Speaker 2: External Exam, we will be speaking with Matt Murphy. Matt

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Speaker 2: is a former homicide prosecutor who spent more than two

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Speaker 2: decades assigned to the sexual assault and homicide units of

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Speaker 2: the Orange County District Attorney's Office. Now, he regularly appears

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Speaker 2: on national television shows. You may have seen him on

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty Good Morning America or I Crime with Elizabeth Vargas,

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Speaker 2: where he discusses murder cases across the country. Today, I'll

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Speaker 2: talk to Matt about some of the cases he's worked on,

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Speaker 2: other homicide cases we have been following on Mother Knows

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Speaker 2: Death podcasts, and also about his new book, The Book

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Speaker 2: of Murder, A Prosecutor's Journey through Love and Death, which

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Speaker 2: is available now. Please welcome Matt Murphy to the show. Hi, Matt,

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being here today.

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Speaker 1: Happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: I have a funny story to tell you. Actually that

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Speaker 2: this is the first time I met you, but I

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Speaker 2: have a story involving you. So I went you guys know,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know if you know this, but I

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Speaker 2: went to crime Con too. It was my first year

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Speaker 2: at crime Con and I had a lecture and I

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Speaker 2: was so nervous getting ready to go to the lecture.

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Speaker 2: And I was walking up that little hallway where they

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Speaker 2: bring you into the back and they're showing you where

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Speaker 2: what room you're going to go sit in and wait

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Speaker 2: to go into your lecture. And as I was walking

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Speaker 2: up there, there was this trail of women that were

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Speaker 2: holding like little notepads and they were walking and following

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Speaker 2: some guy right. And then my husband was like, all right,

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Speaker 2: that guy has to be doing a lecture or something

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Speaker 2: because these girls are like fanning out hard over this guy.

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Speaker 2: And it turns out that it was you and they

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Speaker 2: were like Beatles fans. It was insane. And one thing,

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Speaker 2: you know, my husband picked up from being there, was

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Speaker 2: just like, yo, this is like if you want to

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Speaker 2: meet a girl, Like, there's there's a lot of women here.

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Speaker 2: It is six thousand people or something. But he was

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Speaker 2: just like, I can't believe how many women are here.

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Speaker 2: So it's just funny stories.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's too funny. Yeah, there the crowds. Like my

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Speaker 1: first I did Vegas. Uh, they asked me to do

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Speaker 1: a nobody presentation, so I've prosecuted five nobody murders, right,

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Speaker 1: and I guess I guess they're relatively rare. Still, so

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Speaker 1: I thought like forty people would show up for my

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Speaker 1: little Furst and pony show, you know, with my PowerPoint,

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Speaker 1: and there was I think there was two thousand people

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Speaker 1: in the room.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 1: And I walk out onto the stage and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this is like the biggest jury I've ever seen. But

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Speaker 1: everybody's so nice and the crowds are the crowds are great.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, as far as as far as meeting women,

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Speaker 1: I'm at those things. I retreat back up to my room.

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Speaker 1: I am. I don't hang out on the bar. I

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Speaker 1: don't you know, I don't do any of that. I

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Speaker 1: go back and eat room service and usually work on

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Speaker 1: whatever legal stuff I got going on with my law practice.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I get that. The whole experience was like

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Speaker 2: very overwhelming for me. And the same exact thing. I

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Speaker 2: was like, I don't really want to eat in a

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Speaker 2: restaurant right now, Like, let's just get room service and

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Speaker 2: turn it off. It's like an overstimulation, Yeah, it's really Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And a lot of the places like Vegas is overstimulating

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Speaker 2: in its own right, and then but you know, the

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Speaker 2: people are so nice.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I've let's see my last

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Speaker 1: I've done I did I went to as part of ABC.

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Speaker 1: I went in twenty nineteen, then COVID it's in Vegas Orlando. Oh,

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Speaker 1: so I've done four and they are I kind of

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Speaker 1: came to the conclusion that most of them, most of

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Speaker 1: the people they come there are they're really sort of

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Speaker 1: victim oriented, you know what I mean, Like they're very

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Speaker 1: sympathetic towards the victims. They're supportive of the police. You know.

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Speaker 1: There they seem to be for my you know, from

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Speaker 1: my point of view, they are in the right place,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they want to they

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Speaker 1: kind of want to help, and they want to learn,

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Speaker 1: and they want to learn, you know, they want to

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Speaker 1: learn legal concepts, and they want to learn forensic stuff,

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Speaker 1: and they want to hear interesting stories. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I haven't had a bad experience yet with anybody in

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Speaker 1: the in the crowds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's cool because a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: for whatever their life circumstances are, they don't have the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to go to school for that. Maybe it's like

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Speaker 2: they had kids or whatever. They just never did it,

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Speaker 2: but they have so much interest in it that they're

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Speaker 2: actually trying to learn as if it was they were

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Speaker 2: going to school for it or doing it as a job.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's I think it's it was just

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Speaker 2: really awesome. And there's just so many different like I

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Speaker 2: do autopsy stuff and you do the prosecutor stuff. It's

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Speaker 2: just it's really cool. There's a mix of every little

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Speaker 2: job within the field of forensics and it's super cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's and let's face it, it is. It

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Speaker 1: is fascinating. I'm still fascinated by it. I did it

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Speaker 1: for twenty one years in sex and holic side, and

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Speaker 1: I'm still you know, if I'm if I'm home on

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Speaker 1: a Friday night and I'm I'm just flipping through channels,

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Speaker 1: I will I will find myself getting hooked over and

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Speaker 1: over again, and even on Dayline or forty eight Hours.

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Speaker 1: That the competition with ABC. So I don't tell anybody

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Speaker 1: at ABC, but but yeah, I will. I can get

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Speaker 1: sucked into a good true crime show. One I really

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Speaker 1: thought was amazing was JIVERSI don't f with cats or people.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's it. Everybody's got to watch that. It is amazing.

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Speaker 1: It's basically I don't almost don't even want to give

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Speaker 1: anything away. But essentially it's this guy posts himself killing

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Speaker 1: cats on online and and he's just he's basically anonymous online,

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of online sleuths put together they go

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Speaker 1: on a on on a hunt for who this guy is,

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Speaker 1: figuring that anybody that would kill cats very correctly might

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Speaker 1: kill people. And it's I don't I don't even want

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Speaker 1: to give anything away. It is amazing, So it's it's

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Speaker 1: worth the it's worth the watch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I am interested in that, and the whole the

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Speaker 2: online sleuth community is very interesting how they're sometimes assisting

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Speaker 2: with with people investigators trying to solve crimes.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of cool, yeah, sometimes yeah, and that that

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Speaker 1: case is a great example of that. And sometimes you know,

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Speaker 1: the an online push can also sort of shame different

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Speaker 1: jurisdictions into actually putting some resources into cold cases, which

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Speaker 1: can be good, but they also, you know, there's downsides

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Speaker 1: to it too. Like on a coburger, there was a

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Speaker 1: couple of online sleuths that decided that some professor committed

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Speaker 1: that murder and the guy is totally innocent, and that

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Speaker 1: that can be I guess the downside of it, But

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Speaker 1: I guess I guess as a society, we're still all

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Speaker 1: collectively kind of figuring out this whole social media thing.

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Speaker 2: So a couple a couple of days ago, there was

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Speaker 2: a story in the news where this surgeon had taken

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Speaker 2: out a guy's liver by accident. He went in to

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Speaker 2: get his spleen removed, and he took out the wrong organ,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I mean, trying to not sound insensitive,

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Speaker 2: but I'm kind of jealous of the person that got

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Speaker 2: to do that autopsy because it is a very fascinating

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Speaker 2: autopsy for me. Do you ever watch any of these

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Speaker 2: shows and think, God, I wish I could be involved

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Speaker 2: in prosecuting this case. It's just so interesting.

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Speaker 1: That's a great question. And the answers is a yes.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I did this for a long time

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Speaker 1: and it was really you know, life wise and work wise.

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Speaker 1: It was a good time for me to go, and

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Speaker 1: ABC offered me a great deal. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: longest anybody had ever done before me in the homicide

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Speaker 1: unit of Orange County was fifteen years, and that was

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Speaker 1: a guy who spent half of it as a manager.

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Speaker 1: So he's a buddy of mine, so I was give

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Speaker 1: him a hard time. It doesn't count because I was.

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Speaker 1: I was a line prosecutor for seventeen But truth is,

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Speaker 1: I miss it every day. And so when I'm brought

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Speaker 1: in on some of these cases like Coburgers one, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm almost like almost like that cat looking at birds

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the window, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I want to I want to jump in the screen.

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Speaker 1: I want to I want to go do my thing.

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Speaker 1: And the same thing happens when even when I'm I

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Speaker 1: live in Los Angeles and I split time between here

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Speaker 1: in New York City and a couple of times in

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Speaker 1: New York and a couple of times in LA I've

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Speaker 1: driven past crime scenes with the yellow tape and you know,

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Speaker 1: and that's what I used to do, used to roll

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Speaker 1: up with my investigator, and I want to go in

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Speaker 1: and help work the case. So yeah, I think about

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Speaker 1: that all the time when I either when I'm watching

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Speaker 1: something or when I'm doing commentary on a case, or

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Speaker 1: sometimes I'll even see the prosecution do something that I

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Speaker 1: just want to scream, you know, like what are you

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Speaker 1: guys thinking? But you know, then I I get back

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Speaker 1: into it. Rever it's not it's not my case, not

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Speaker 1: my job, and I don't have to lose any sleepover

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Speaker 1: it that night.

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Speaker 2: So you sound like my Like he's a fireman and

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Speaker 2: he's getting ready to get promoted to a higher position

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Speaker 2: where he won't be going into fires anymore, and it's

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Speaker 2: like ruining his life thinking about that, which is which

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Speaker 2: is outrageous. But speaking of so let's get into Since

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Speaker 2: you brought up the Brian Coberger, Idaho college student murder case,

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about that because you know, I've

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Speaker 2: seen murder victims. I've been talking about this for years,

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Speaker 2: and you know, being involved in autopsies of people that

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Speaker 2: were murdered and stuff, and like it's whatever. I'll talk

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Speaker 2: about it at dinner, I'll eat lunch talking, but it

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Speaker 2: doesn't bother me. But for some reason, this one really

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Speaker 2: really bothered me. And when he got arrested and I

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Speaker 2: saw his picture, it like his face scared the shit

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Speaker 2: out of me for real, Like I just there was

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Speaker 2: something so eerie about him. Have you ever prosecuted or

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Speaker 2: worked on a case where someone just was beyond I mean,

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Speaker 2: I know you worked with a lot of murders, with

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Speaker 2: somebody that just was like extra creepy. And do you

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Speaker 2: feel the same kind of way about this case with

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Speaker 2: Brian Coberger.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And did you see the clip when he got

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Speaker 1: pulled over on the highway when he's driving across country

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Speaker 1: with dad and the look in his eyes like like,

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Speaker 1: am I am I getting arrested right now?

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Speaker 2: At you know, Oh my god, the chills he's just

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Speaker 2: his eyes are so scary to me.

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Speaker 1: Yep, Now you've got a You've got very good instincts.

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Speaker 1: I think the look the in the dating game killer

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Speaker 1: Rodney Alcala, a lot of serial killers, and this is

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Speaker 1: an interesting thing. They there's almost this pattern that they follow.

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Speaker 1: They love to collect trophies from their victims. That's one

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Speaker 1: of the things they love to do. And they when

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Speaker 1: it comes to court, they're all drawn towards representing themselves

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Speaker 1: and it's a fascinating thing. And they in California we

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Speaker 1: call that proper. So when they go proper and they'll

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Speaker 1: fire their their attorneys. And I think it's a combination

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Speaker 1: of sort of the arrogance of every good psychopath. They

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Speaker 1: believe that they're the smartest person in the room. And

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Speaker 1: then I also think it's that they cannot resist the

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Speaker 1: control so you know, like they, you have the power

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Speaker 1: of an attorney, You have the ability to call witnesses,

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Speaker 1: you have the ability to you know, force them to

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Speaker 1: answer questions like I think that's somehow that calls to

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Speaker 1: that that psychopath the serial killer. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: those guys go proper. And I had a guy named

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Speaker 1: Douglas Hopper who was a serial rapist. And the difference

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Speaker 1: between serial rapists who don't kill and serial murderers who

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Speaker 1: rape their victims is virtually nothing, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is the same personality type. They do the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing, just one type gets off on the killing

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Speaker 1: and the other doesn't usually go that far, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean. But it's the same. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: the same guy over and over again. And so you

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Speaker 1: they represent themselves and you have to talk to them

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Speaker 1: and deal with them like they're a lawyer. And like Rodney,

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Speaker 1: I'll call a murdered one hundred people probably and that

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Speaker 1: guy we had them for there's five we know for sure,

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Speaker 1: five or six in New York. There's thirteen cases out

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Speaker 1: in the Western I had to say it's that we

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Speaker 1: know for sure he did, And then there's just a

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Speaker 1: host of other opportunities and ones where he's a suspect.

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Speaker 1: We prosecuted him for foreign La County and one in

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Speaker 1: Orange County, and we did those together. But that guy

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Speaker 1: represented himself and I had to deal with him every day,

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Speaker 1: go in and face to face, have conversations with them.

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Speaker 1: And it was my co counsel was sort of appalled

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Speaker 1: at the idea, and she was wonderful, but she's like,

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Speaker 1: once he went pro per, she's like, well, now what

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Speaker 1: do we do? You know, And and we came up

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Speaker 1: with a plan where it's like, look, I'll be we'll

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Speaker 1: do good caught bad cop. I'll be his buddy, and

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Speaker 1: every time we have to tell him no and some

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Speaker 1: crazy thing he wants to do, I'll just blame you

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Speaker 1: and we'll take advantage of whatever hatred he has of

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Speaker 1: women or whatever he's got going on that's making him

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Speaker 1: do all this. And uh, and it actually worked very well,

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Speaker 1: like it allowed us, you know, I could treat him professionally.

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Speaker 1: And you have to be fair, and you have to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the that your tree, even a psycho

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Speaker 1: killer that's representing himself, You've got to make sure that

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Speaker 1: the process is fair. You got to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you get them the stuff that he wants to it

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Speaker 1: to a degree, and then beyond that, when that he

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Speaker 1: wants to do really crazy stuff, you have to tell

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Speaker 1: him no, and you have to tell him know a lot.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's, uh, that was a very interesting experience

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Speaker 1: because basically, you gotta, I gotta get to know these guys.

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Speaker 1: You've got to like develop a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: report to move the case along and the trial along.

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Speaker 1: And it's uh yeah, So some of them you can,

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Speaker 1: you can, really you can look in their eyes and

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Speaker 1: you can, you know. But what's fascinating about serial killers

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Speaker 1: also is a lot of them. A lot of these

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Speaker 1: guys could be standing in line in front of us

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Speaker 1: at a Starbucks and we wouldn't know, you know, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes our instincts just you know, like Rodney Alcala won

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Speaker 1: the Dating Game, which is while he's killing everybody, he

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Speaker 1: goes on the dating game and wins it. And you

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Speaker 1: could see the charm and the jokes and the humor,

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Speaker 1: and she picked them. So it's like, on one hand,

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Speaker 1: he was giving up notesells, but then he came behind

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Speaker 1: the screen and she saw him, and you can see it.

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Speaker 1: She immediately thought, this, something's not right. And she refused

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Speaker 1: to go on the date. So it's like, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: when that instinct sort of kicks in or what it's

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Speaker 1: based on, you know. In fact, Anna Kendrick has a

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Speaker 1: movie coming out called Woman of the Hour with on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: I don't know when the release date is, but where

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Speaker 1: she she it's her first first movie she's ever directed,

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Speaker 1: and I got to consult a little bit on that

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Speaker 1: and she couldn't be nicer, by the way. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a really interesting question, right, like where, you know,

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Speaker 1: where do our instincts let us down with people like that?

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Speaker 2: I would love to interview that lady, find whoever that

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Speaker 2: was on that show and just be like, why didn't

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Speaker 2: you end up going on the date with this guy?

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Speaker 2: What was it? And I mean obviously she probably knows

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Speaker 2: what happened after that, you know, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she passed away a few years go. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it would not be interesting, like what was it? What?

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Speaker 1: What made the hairs on the back of your neck

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Speaker 1: stand up about this guy? Maybe I shouldn't say that

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Speaker 1: about a woman, Maybe creep you out. Yeah I don't

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Speaker 1: need to imply that to Harry.

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Speaker 2: Back, but everyone has a little bit of hair on

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Speaker 2: their body, it's fine. So speaking of being like fair,

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Speaker 2: so with the Brian Coburger case right now, a judge

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Speaker 2: just ruled this week that it was not going to

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Speaker 2: take place in the county where the murder happened now

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Speaker 2: because they're they're I guess the defense did some kind

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Speaker 2: of survey on the people that live in the town

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Speaker 2: and asking them what they thought about this case, and

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Speaker 2: some of the quotes where there will likely be a

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Speaker 2: riot and he wouldn't last long outside because someone would

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Speaker 2: do the good old boy justice on him, and another

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Speaker 2: person said that they would burn the court house down if,

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Speaker 2: like if he got acquitted of this murder. So they're thinking, okay,

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Speaker 2: they can't prosecute the case in this county because it's

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Speaker 2: not going to be fair to him. And honestly, it

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Speaker 2: kind of worries me a little bit because I know

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Speaker 2: that you're really involved in this case, and I'm really

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Speaker 2: involved in this case. But if I'm just at a

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Speaker 2: party and people say, like, what's the craziest thing you're

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Speaker 2: talking about right now? And I bring it up, so

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Speaker 2: many people are like, oh, I didn't even hear about that,

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, what, so do you think that this

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Speaker 2: is going to be a bad thing for the prosecution

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Speaker 2: that it's moving.

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Speaker 1: No. No, And also, yeah, I read the motions on

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Speaker 1: that case. And you know what we're talking about is

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Speaker 1: capital case litigation. Okay. So in other words of death penalty.

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Speaker 1: And unlike California, Idaho actually has a function death penalty.

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Speaker 1: I think they only have seven people on death throw there,

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Speaker 1: but they may actually execute in the state of Idaho.

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Speaker 1: So Idaho's part of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal federally.

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Speaker 1: So the way it goes is it automatically gets procedurally

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Speaker 1: sent to the Idaho Spring Court and they will they'll

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Speaker 1: they'll review the issues on the case if there's a conviction,

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Speaker 1: and if there's a death sentence, okay, and then it

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Speaker 1: goes to the Ninth Circuit. And the Ninth Circuit historically

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Speaker 1: has been somewhat hostile to death penalty cases. So the

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Speaker 1: name of the game for the prosecution and for the

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Speaker 1: judge is to eliminate all appellate issues to the greatest

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Speaker 1: degree that you can. And you know, I didn't I

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Speaker 1: thought that, you know, those the people that would say

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Speaker 1: something like that if in fact they actually existed. And

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Speaker 1: I have some I have some question marks about that.

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Speaker 1: You know, like the defense in a death penalty case

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Speaker 1: did a survey. You know, you can almost like just

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Speaker 1: take the tablespoonful of assault and take a hit right

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Speaker 1: there in most issues, like, hey, we do a survey

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Speaker 1: and everybody said, nobody can be fair. You know, like

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Speaker 1: that's the way. That's what you encounter all the time

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Speaker 1: when you do capital case litigation, and the defense has

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Speaker 1: to has to basically go to the mat on every

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Speaker 1: single issue. So I think the judge by doing that,

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Speaker 1: the call was it was a conservative call, It was

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Speaker 1: a safe call, and I think it was the right

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Speaker 1: one because the goal is you don't want the case

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Speaker 1: to get reversed so the families have to go through

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Speaker 1: it a second time. So by by agreeing to move it,

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Speaker 1: they are the judges eliminating that issue on a pellet

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Speaker 1: review because the prosecution has no has no ability to

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Speaker 1: appeal once there's a conviction. You can't appeal an acquittal.

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Speaker 1: For example, in certain countries you can, you can't in

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Speaker 1: the United States. So it was that was the right call,

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Speaker 1: very very safe call. In Orange County, just as an

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Speaker 1: example with a much larger population, there's never been a

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Speaker 1: change of any motion granted in the history of the

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Speaker 1: county based on pre toll publicity, so uh, safe call.

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Speaker 1: They probably probably would have been fine if they let

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Speaker 1: us say where it was. But your point where you

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Speaker 1: said that, it's you're shocked how few people have heard

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Speaker 1: about it. That's the way every big high profile case

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Speaker 1: you do is as a prosecutor, you do drury questionnaires,

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Speaker 1: the judge censos out, and you can have some case,

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Speaker 1: well you think the entire world is watching, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and I've done some high profile stuff, and you'll have

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Speaker 1: a venieri, which is a group of jurors who show

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Speaker 1: up and you'll give them the questionnaires, and one of

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Speaker 1: the questions is always have you heard about this case?

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Speaker 1: Have you read anything about this case? If so, can

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Speaker 1: you put that aside? And it is always shocking to me,

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Speaker 1: like eighty percent of the people in the county that

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Speaker 1: with all kinds of splashy headlines won't even have heard

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Speaker 1: of it. And of the twenty percent that have, you know,

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Speaker 1: half of those will be like, yeah, I heard something

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Speaker 1: about like a school or was there a boat involved,

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Speaker 1: you know, like they don't know. And then and then

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Speaker 1: of the ten percent that have actually been following most

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Speaker 1: of those could even say, yeah, I read some articles

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Speaker 1: on it. I can't really remember what they said, but

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Speaker 1: I can absolutely put that aside. I know that's media.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to pace my decision on the evidence in

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Speaker 1: the law. So you got to kick about five percent,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not. So they could have done that

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Speaker 1: in that county. You know, they could have found a

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Speaker 1: fair jury. There's no doubt in my mind they could have.

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Speaker 1: But the judge wanted to be careful. So it's the

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Speaker 1: right call. It's better for the families than everybody else.

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Speaker 2: Do you think. So let's talk about crime scenes and stuff,

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Speaker 2: because obviously you've been on a ton of them, and

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Speaker 2: that particular scene was probably really horrible for investigators to

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Speaker 2: go on, especially because there's not it's not like they're

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Speaker 2: in you know, Philadelphia where they see like really bad

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Speaker 2: stuff all the time. It's like they probably there wasn't

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Speaker 2: even a murder there for years prior to this, and

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Speaker 2: it was probably a lot for them to see that

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Speaker 2: with young kids and everything like that. Do you remember

404
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Speaker 2: your first homicide scene that you went to?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I remember every detail I think of

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Speaker 1: every homicide scene I ever went to, including some of

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Speaker 1: the some of the smells. You know, that's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that when you when you walk into a murder,

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Speaker 1: into a murder scene, it is so intense and you're

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Speaker 1: and you're there to observe and absorb and see. And

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Speaker 1: my first homicide scene, I talked about this in my book.

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Speaker 1: I was I was getting over a breakup. At the time,

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Speaker 1: I I thought I was going to get married. I

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Speaker 1: was thirty thirty three and we broke up and we've

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Speaker 1: been together for five years, and she really wanted to

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Speaker 1: get married and I wasn't ready yet. It was one

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Speaker 1: of those things and oh, I.

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Speaker 2: Know that story. I went through the story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think a lot of people have.

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Speaker 1: It's like I just wasn't ready and she was, and

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Speaker 1: so we broke up and I figured, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be like every other relationship like that, we get

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Speaker 1: back together, and then we wound up getting married and instead,

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Speaker 1: you know, she was she was a very smart, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: high quality person, and you know, there were guys knocking

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Speaker 1: her door down to get to her. And she wound

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Speaker 1: up meeting a guy that she fell in love with

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Speaker 1: and that I wound up marrying him and had kids

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Speaker 1: and she's happily married, happily married today. So I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm that country song fool, you know. Right when I

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Speaker 1: got moved into the homicide unit, and I started out

432
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: just like I started this morning. I started in the water,

433
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, just sitting out there trying to like work

434
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: it out of my head and my phone. When I

435
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: got back to the parking lot, changing back in my

436
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: car on my way to work, and it was my

437
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: first week in homicide and I got my very first

438
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: call out and it was a murder in Newport Beach

439
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: and I didn't know my detectives yet. I'd just gotten

440
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: assigned that city. I was. I had been in the

441
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: unit a couple of days, and I went down. I

442
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: looked like I was twelve, and I talked myself past

443
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: the perimeter tape and they walk me in, and you know,

444
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 1: and you're you're there as a prosecutor, not to not

445
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: to lead the investigation, but to assist, you know, and

446
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: to to help with the warrants and anything the police

447
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: might need. And Orange County it's a vertical system. So

448
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: the way it works is I would go that, you know,

449
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: when the murder happened that day or that night, with

450
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: my investigator and then we you know, once we file charges,

451
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: you go all the way up and then I handle

452
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: everything in court. And the lead detective who I meet

453
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 1: there at the murder scene is there with me with

454
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: every court appearance and through the trial, sitting next to me.

455
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: So it's like a it's a team concept. I think

456
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: every DA's office should do it that way, and it

457
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: works very very well. But I walked in and you know,

458
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: like like the TV shows, you know, what what what?

459
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: What is that one scene over and over again when

460
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 1: the rookie shows up on a scene right like and

461
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: we've all.

462
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 2: Seen it was in the corner and throws up.

463
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: Right right that's and you're seeing it or or doesn't

464
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: make it to the corner right like the old Quitsy

465
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: episodes that they did that. And I am I'm driving

466
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: down there, and I went to one funeral at this

467
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: point in my life, and I'd seen I saw a

468
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: woman get hit by a bus, So I think this

469
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: can be my the third dead body I've ever seen

470
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: in my life. And the whole way down from Manhattan

471
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: Beach to Orange County, I'm thinking Murphy, in the name

472
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: of all things holy, just don't puke and and I

473
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: walk in with the and the detective who was there,

474
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: his name is Dave Byington, and he is in my mind,

475
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: the guy is a superhero. And this is the first

476
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: day I met him, and I wound up working together

477
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: with him on some of the biggest cases that I

478
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: that I did, including the Hawk's murder case. So this,

479
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: you know, this is basically meeting somebody that's going to

480
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: be one of my best friends for life. And I

481
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: walk in and he walks me in, and this guy's

482
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: on the on the floor on his back, okay, and

483
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: all I'm all, I'm I'm trying to I've got the

484
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: biggest imposter syndrome ever, you know. And and I don't

485
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: know what I'm doing as far as murders go at all.

486
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking, don't throw up on the body.

487
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: You'll never live it down. Whatever you do, don't throw

488
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: up in the body. And I look down and the

489
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: first thing I see is he's got a wallet chain

490
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 1: into his right back pocket and he had a folding

491
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: knife in his left hand, and he was he was

492
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: full of bullet holes. And it immediately struck me. It's like, well,

493
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: why would a left handed person keep their wallet in

494
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: their right pocket, and why would or in the alternative,

495
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: why would a right handed person have a knife in

496
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: his left hand. And it just struck me instantly, and

497
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: it was like, and that's why they encouraged us to

498
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: go to the crime scenes, because immediately it was like,

499
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: don't puke, don't puke, don't puke. That makes no effing sense,

500
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: you know. And then it's and I'm there for for that,

501
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: And it turns out it was a It was this.

502
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 1: She was a financial planner, I think, and he you know, actually,

503
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: this is a this is the this is the intro

504
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: to my book. So I guess I'm not I'm not

505
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: spoiling anything by by sharing this. But basically, I walk

506
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: in and they take me upstairs. There's a blood smear

507
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: on the on the wall, like semi circular on the

508
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: wall of this staircase. He's in the kitchen, but it's

509
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: at the bottom of a staircase kind of, and it's

510
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: its wooden floor, and the detective takes me upstairs. There's

511
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: broken glass, there's rose petals leading to a bed. There's

512
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: candles burning all over the place like there's some sort

513
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: of romantic interlode that's been interrupted, and there's a couple

514
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: of blue rolls upstairs, and he has two shots in

515
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: his chest, and when the detective moved him and the

516
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: body actually groaned, which was, you know, not supposed to happen.

517
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: In my brain. The guy's like, oh, and because he

518
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: was forcing the air out of the lungs, and it

519
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I'm thinking he's alive. He's a lot,

520
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, and I didn't say anything,

521
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: of course, but he's moving it to show me that

522
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: two of the bullet ones in the chest actually went

523
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: right through him, and the expended bullets went all the

524
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: way through the body and were in the in the

525
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: hardwood flooring meeting. He was on his back and the

526
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: gun was pressed against him twice. There's one in his mouth,

527
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: one in his temple, and one in his back. And

528
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: so so it turns out the woman who lived there

529
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: lived there with another man that she'd just broken up with.

530
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: They'd been together like ten years. She was I think

531
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: forty two years old, and her previous boyfriend had he'd

532
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: been cheating on her with another man, and so they

533
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: had broken up, but he was they were still living together.

534
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: So her life was kind of upside down, and she

535
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: started seeing our victim, who had was separated from his

536
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: wife at the time, and he went over to break

537
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: up with her too. So that was too much for

538
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 1: her to take. So she kills him and there were there.

539
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: It was a six shot revolver, but there was nine

540
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: bullet holes, meaning that she'd reloaded the gun, which from

541
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: a legal perspective is very significant because that turns it

542
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: into a first degree murder. She winds up bailing out

543
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: because there's no she wasn't a flight risk, she had

544
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: ties to the community, she had no criminal history. It's

545
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: under all of the statutory criteria she was qualified for bail.

546
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: She gets out and meets up with her with her

547
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: gay ex boyfriend, who you know. This is like the

548
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: next day, and this is my very first week in homicide.

549
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: Waits for their having a talk. They're eas staying in

550
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: a hotel because we were still processing the crime scene

551
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: and so they couldn't even go back to the house,

552
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: so this is right after her release. He lets her

553
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: into his hotel room, they talked for a while, he

554
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: falls asleep. She bludgeons him to death with a tire

555
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: iron she brought in from her car, and then she

556
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: drives to a place called the Firing Line in Huntington Beach,

557
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: rents a gun and blows her brains out. And that

558
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: was I think that my fifth day in the homicide

559
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: and my my boss, Lou Rosenbloom, who was wonderful, I

560
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: go in and I'm like, you know, completely wide, I'd like,

561
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: what what goes on in this unit? And he just

562
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: kind of just kind of laughed and he said, if

563
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: you think that's crazy, just just you wait, you know.

564
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: So that was my that was my first HOMICI i'd

565
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: seen crazy case and that was the first week of

566
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: seventeen years of weeks. And you know, I I tell

567
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: you know, I share a bunch of the crazy cases

568
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: that I worked on in my book.

569
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: So so you're you're in this scene and I'm just

570
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: thinking about how like gross you feel when you have

571
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: like a really bad breakup, because my husband and I

572
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: went through the same exact thing, like but we got

573
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: back together because he he saw the light. I guess

574
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it was the same thing, like

575
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: I'm ready to get married, You're not ready to get married. Whatever.

576
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: So I know, like how intense that was? Did you

577
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: when you go on scenes like this. You sometimes and

578
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: you see these couples that just have these insane dramas

579
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: and these love triangles and this and that, and think like, Okay,

580
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: maybe my problems aren't so bad. They're killing each other,

581
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: they're killing other people, killing themselves over this, And do

582
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: you ever kind of look at other people's lives and

583
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: what's happening and think like, maybe I'm just being over

584
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: dramatic or something like that.

585
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. One hundred percent, And it's one of

586
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: the most common types of cases that you deal with

587
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: are exactly what you're just talking about. I mean, the

588
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: bread and butter of the homicide un it. You have

589
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: two things that you roll out to over and over again.

590
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: Methem fetamine related murders where somebody is either super tweaky

591
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: and kills somebody because they're you know, suffering from you know,

592
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: psychotic breakdown because they've been up for five days, or

593
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: it's a dope rip off, or somebody's high. But really

594
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: the most common you deal with our domestics domestic violence

595
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: cases where a woman or a man, and a lot

596
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: of times it is women have murdered their spouse or

597
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: their their partner and and they uh, you know that

598
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: you go out and you're you walk into somebody's home

599
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: and that's probably the most common type PC. And yeah,

600
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: you really it really does put it in perspective because

601
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: you know a lot of a lot of murders and

602
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: there's different there's different kinds of course, like a child

603
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: abuse death is a totally different kind of murder than

604
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: like a Watson murder, which is a duy murderer, and

605
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: that's totally different than a gang murder. And the taxonomy

606
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: of murders is something I do talk about in the book,

607
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: like that there's there's such different there's so different, and

608
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: there's there's different considerations at trial for each one of

609
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: those or the investigations, and then you get into like conspiracies,

610
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: commit murder from money and serial killers. But the most

611
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: common TYPEC are those those domestics that we can all

612
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: relate to. And you can't really, I can't wrap my

613
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: head around somebody that would freak out on a kid

614
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: and abuse a child, like it's nowhere in my lexicon, right.

615
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: Same thing with gang murders, like gang they're almost boring

616
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: because it's somebody on the wrong street. It gives a

617
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 1: bad look, like it's so banal and stupid. It's we

618
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: can't relate to it. But when it comes to things

619
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: like business partners in a dispute, or neighbors arguing over

620
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: a fence, or a relationship where somebody cheats, we get

621
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: a lot more into a kind of a headspace where

622
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: it's like, huh, I've I've had a broken heart on

623
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: a Saturday night, you know, And it's not this I

624
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: you know, Chris Rock has a great routine, or we're

625
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: talking about OJ and he's like, I'm not saying you

626
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: should have done it, but I understand, you know, and

627
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: it's kind of this. It's sort of the same thing

628
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: on those domestics. You understand that there's a there's a dynamic,

629
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: and clearly every one of those is in fact a

630
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: toxic relationship, otherwise somebody wouldn't be dead. But you you know,

631
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: it's a lot more relatable, not in the sense that

632
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: that you know that you you just fire, you sympathize

633
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: it all because it's awful every time, but it's it's

634
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: a lot closer to our own lives, and it's fascinating

635
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: in that way. And you know that job impacted, that impacted,

636
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: It impacts your life a lot like once I got

637
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: into the unit, I you know, I colleagues that were

638
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: very dedicated and really good at it and super good

639
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: husbands and fathers and wives and all that, and and

640
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: then I just I didn't have the bandwidth. I was

641
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: really bad as a bad boyfriend, you know, during that time,

642
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: because I was you get the call outs at three

643
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: in the morning, and the job for me anyway, really

644
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: impacted kind of my my real life, you know, but

645
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: real life also impacts the job. And I had another

646
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: quick story. I talked about this in the book a

647
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: little bit, but I'll share with you. You I after that

648
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: whole breakup with her, I stumbled out there, and you know,

649
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: like a lot of us, I walked into the worst

650
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: relationship ever with somebody that that was of a very

651
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: different moral character. And I think, I think it was

652
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: like a port on the storm sort of thing, and

653
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: I I was ignoring all the red flags. And fast

654
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: forward about eight or nine months. This was my girlfriend.

655
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: It was a whole worst relationship I've ever been in.

656
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: And she takes me to a wedding and I do

657
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: a surf trip annually with a bunch of my buddies,

658
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: and we go to Indonesia and we do these surf charters.

659
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 1: We'll go get on different boats and you go surf

660
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: for ten days in Indonesia on a boat. And I

661
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: got this crew of guys. We do it every year.

662
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: I was skipping that year because I just got into

663
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 1: homicide and my girlfriend had a wedding of her friends

664
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: that she wanted to take me to up in Napa.

665
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: And we get up there, and she used to hook

666
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: up with one of the groomsmen in college. And two

667
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: in the morning, you know, I go from the bar

668
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: and I'm walking down this hallway to the bathroom, and

669
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: she was mad at me about whatever, and I passed

670
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: this couple making out in the corner and I double

671
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: take and it's my girlfriend making out with the guy

672
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: that she's up in college. So it's like that's an

673
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: attention to get her, and so I wind up going on.

674
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: You know, we were supposed to be up there for

675
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: like four days, and obviously that ended my trip and

676
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: that relationship, and so I went up hopping on the

677
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: surf trip with my buddies. That happened three days later,

678
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: and I wind up, you know, his last minute change.

679
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: There was still a spot I fly to Indonesia try

680
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: to get away from all that. And I wound up

681
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: meeting a captain on the boat that year named Gary Burns,

682
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: who had like he lived on boats his whole life,

683
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: and he told me these stories about you know, these

684
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: drug smugglers that he'd encountered over the years, and like

685
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: some of the adventures he had had, you know, living

686
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: on the water doing these surf charters, and about you know.

687
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: I got home and about three months later Tom and

688
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: Jackie Hawks went missing off their yacht in Newport Beach

689
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: and we did two completely different friends and work ups

690
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: on that boat. And for those of you who are

691
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: familiar with the story, this is the Scholar Daily On

692
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: case where he was a child actor who went out

693
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: he was going to buy their boat, which was his

694
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: beautiful fifty five foot lean wa trawler called the Well Deserved,

695
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: and they were selling it and he was going to

696
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 1: buy it. And they went out on a sea trot

697
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: well and he came back in and there was he

698
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: submitted paperwork indicating the sale had taking place. It was notarized.

699
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: There was a notary public who was interviewed, and he

700
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: showed up with the paperwork and said I bought the boat.

701
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: I paid cash, Here's where I got it, blah blah blah.

702
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: Here all the witnesses who saw it. We do a

703
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: Friends of Work up on the boat, and we had nothing.

704
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 1: We had no blood, we had nobody could find this couple,

705
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: and nobody could find their car. So we had a

706
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: story that seemed a little bit weird, but we had

707
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: no evidence, and we were at a dead end, probably

708
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: eight weeks after they disappeared, and I called Gary in

709
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: Australia and I'm like, dude, I think we've got a murder,

710
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: but I don't what should we be looking for here

711
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: if we think a murder happened on a boat. And

712
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: we did two Friends of World cups, once with the

713
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: crime Lab, once with Newport CSI, and we just had nothing.

714
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: And without skipping a beat, without skipping a beat, Nicole

715
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: he goes look for a missing anchor. He's like, if

716
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: they were selling the boat, there should be a manifest

717
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: look at what's count the anchors on the boat versus

718
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: what they're selling. And sure enough there was a missing

719
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: anchor and it wound up making all the difference in

720
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: the world. So I think that's a very very long,

721
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: convoluted answer to your question. But if it hadn't been

722
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: for my drunk cheating girlfriend, I don't think I ever

723
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: would have met gry Burns and I never would have

724
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: made that call. And that was that was what brought

725
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: their whole house of cards down in that case, because

726
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: from that I knew I had something I could point

727
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: to to a jury, and we arrested Skyler like a

728
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: couple days later, and from that arrest, we have search

729
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: warrants and their whole house of cards fell down, and

730
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: we were able to prosecute everybody involved in that conspiracy.

731
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: So that's another story in my book.

732
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by the Grosser Room. Guys,

733
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: join the Grosser Room. It's only five nine nine a

734
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: month to try, and you get to see all of

735
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: these different things. So we have a lot of celebrity

736
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: death dissections. It's just it's really interesting to see what

737
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: we look for an autopsy in those cases. So join

738
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: the Grosser Room now only five ninety nine a month.

739
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: It is cool because in the book you talk about

740
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: how solving these crimes are like you walk into these

741
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: scenes and it's like a three dimensional puzzle and your

742
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: job is to pay attention to all of these little

743
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: details that you've been talking about. And I'm curious from

744
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: a perspective of I always you know, I have little kids,

745
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: and I'm always kind of like, what are they going

746
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 2: to grow up to be? Because they just have such

747
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: different personalities and strengths and weaknesses. So when you were

748
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 2: a kid, did you, like looking back I'm sure you

749
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: weren't like six years old saying you wanted to be

750
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: a prosecutor. What kind of traits did you have as

751
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: a child that you think you could look back and

752
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: say like, oh, I've always been really good at this.

753
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: I just this is helpful towards my job.

754
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: Well, you can tell by the sun damage. As a kid,

755
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: all I wanted to do was go to the beach.

756
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: But uh, you know I as a as a child,

757
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: I was There's a great line in The Princess Bride, Remember.

758
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 2: That movie, one of my favorites.

759
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, where a Nigo one Toya comes in and uh

760
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: and I can't remember the six fingered man right, and

761
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 1: he throws him and he stabs him with a knife.

762
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: You know. He throws a knife across the room and

763
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: a Nigo Montoya pulls it out and he goes, are

764
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: you still trying. Are you still fighting? You have an

765
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: overdeveloped sense of justice and it's going to get you

766
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: in trouble one day. And as a kid, I don't

767
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: know what it was, but starting in about fourth grade,

768
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: we had a boy named Danny Berman at my elementary

769
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: school that used to get picked on a lot by

770
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: by you know, we had a few bullies, but they

771
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: really picked on Danny. And I was ten, and I

772
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: don't know what came over me that day, you know.

773
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 1: And I'm Irish and Scottish, so I've got some Irish

774
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: blood in me, even as a ten year old, and

775
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: I I liked Danny and I always felt sorry for him,

776
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: and I walked over and I punched the bully right

777
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: in the right in the face, and then got descended

778
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: on and learned the physical consequences of doing that with

779
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: a much bigger kid. But in a way, that's really

780
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: what you are as a prosecutor. You're a bully fighter.

781
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: And when it comes to child musters or rapists or murderers,

782
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: what they are, when you boil it down to their

783
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: most basic they are can I can I swear? Can

784
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: I swear on? Their fucking bullies? Is what they are?

785
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: You know, and there's there's a few exceptions to that,

786
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, some some killings like Watson murders,

787
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: the dy killings, or sometimes you get a fight in

788
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: a bar, or maybe it's more mutual combat, it turns

789
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: into something worse. By and large, people who kill other

790
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: people are bullies at their worst. And so as a kid,

791
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: for whatever reason you talk about getting into trouble, I

792
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: got in so much trouble at school all through high school,

793
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: fighting the bully and you know, and a lot of times,

794
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: uh you know, you don't necessarily physically win all those fights,

795
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: but I kept stepping into them anyway, and uh, you know,

796
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: more more I don't know, Irish blood than brains perhaps,

797
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: but but it was kind of a natural you know,

798
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 1: we're It always felt very natural as as a da

799
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: for me because I got to stick up for the

800
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: for the guy that wasn't the strong one, that was

801
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: kind of the the person that was getting picked on.

802
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: And that's what that's what you your very first day,

803
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: that's kind of what you're dealing with with stupid fights

804
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: or one guy picking a fight in misdemeanors. And then

805
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: you go to juvenile and you know, ju the juvenile

806
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: kids are getting prosecuted are almost always the bullies. Gang

807
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: members are bullies, you know, So you just you keep

808
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: almost like it's almost like I got in that fight

809
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: in fourth grade, and then I've gotten in that same

810
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: fight over and over again, and then professionally, I keep

811
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: getting in that same fight and even even doing some

812
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: defense work. I defend police officers as a large part

813
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: of my practice. And you know, again, you see it's

814
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: just there's there's bullies out there, and that's yeah, if

815
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: there was one trade, I think I can point to

816
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: you that it's sort of a natural for me that

817
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: was it.

818
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: It's really cool because you're you, You've had this your

819
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: whole life, you know, and you you've always wanted to

820
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: stick up for things that you don't think is right.

821
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of times even kids they

822
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 2: do see right from wrong and stuff, but they kind

823
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: of they don't really have the courage to stand up

824
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: and really do something about it. Whereas when you were

825
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: a kid, you were like, no, like this isn't right.

826
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: You're picking on this kid, and I'm going to go

827
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: after them. So I think that's really cool.

828
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: Courage or stupidity, I don't know which but yeah, that's

829
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: just Uh, I've I've been hardwired for that sometimes, you know.

830
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I got in trouble in school doing that.

831
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: I got suspended in high school for doing that exact thing.

832
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: And uh, and I've I had I've done some pro

833
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: bono work where I've represented victims of sexual assault against

834
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: my former boss in Orange County who was trying to

835
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: dismiss the case. And you know, I went in and

836
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: and got in that fight and it was you know,

837
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: it's one that that I think there's some bad blood

838
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: there between me and him as a result of me

839
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: trying to represent these women who were victims of sexual assault.

840
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: And I don't know, it's life is I probably I

841
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: think I would sleep better if I if I hadn't

842
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 1: kind of jumped into that phrase so many times. Maybe

843
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: I needed to get a little bit wiser in my

844
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: older age. But but yeah, h then again, I I

845
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't have changed the thing I think in any of

846
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: those fights that I I'm into professionally or otherwise.

847
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 2: Another cool thing that you talk about in the book

848
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: is you have this quote that says the methods of

849
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: committing and solving these crimes have become far more sophisticated,

850
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: but the fundamentals of why murders are committed have not

851
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 2: changed in two hundred thousand years. I think that that's

852
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 2: really cool. I always talk about that with my job too,

853
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: just because whatever organs and stuff I'm looking at today

854
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: or the same organs that people were looking at thousands

855
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: of years ago. But it's cool because there are certain

856
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: things that change, like you wouldn't see the changes that

857
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 2: we see with obesity today, for example, thousands of years ago.

858
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of cool the evolution of that.

859
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: So obviously, I always think that it was way easier

860
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: to get away with murder right back in the day

861
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: when there wasn't DNA and there wasn't all of this stuff.

862
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: Do you think that people are committing murder less now

863
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: because they're afraid that they're going to get caught, or

864
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 2: do you think that murderers don't really even care about

865
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: consequences like that?

866
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: Well, that is a great question. That's a great question.

867
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: So I think that I think there's a there's layers

868
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: to that answer. One of them is I'm sure they're

869
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: on the East Coast. You've been following the Gilgo Beach

870
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: the Rex human case. Yeah, right, So that is he

871
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: represents I think the next generation of serial killers, which

872
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: is the dexter type serial killer, where they have all

873
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: the urges and they want to do it, but they're

874
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: going to do it in a way that they're going

875
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: to try to defeat the forensic science. And you know

876
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: all about this, but they made that case on mito DNA,

877
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, they made it on hairs, which the numbers

878
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: aren't one in ten octilian. The numbers are like one

879
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: in one hundred on you know, hairs, teeth, you know,

880
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: the mitochondril bones. That's a much less precise science than

881
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: nuclear DNA, and that's fascinating. So I think that I

882
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: think that it's a combination. I think we we have

883
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: less serial killers out right now, there's the same amount

884
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: of people doing it, but I think they're caught much

885
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: quicker there. I think that we're catching them the first

886
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: time a lot more often now, especially with DNA, so

887
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: we're we're doing a better job of catching repeat sadistic

888
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: lust murders, which is what I talked about in my book,

889
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: which is what doctor von Ebbing coined it in the

890
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 1: eighteen eighties, you know, around the era of Jack the Ripper,

891
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: a sadistic lust murder. Really, that's Ted Bundy, that's you know,

892
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: Rodney Alcala, that's Jeffrey Dahmer. That's the real archetype of

893
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: the of the serial killer. And I think we're catching

894
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: those guys quicker now. California is making a hard left

895
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: turn away from that and towards early release of those guys.

896
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: And that's that's gonna that's that's starting to happen in

897
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: La County with Leda George Gascon. It's madness here what

898
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 1: they're doing as far as we're releasing killers and child

899
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: molesters and rapists from state prison. If people only knew

900
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: how insane that was. But there's almost there's been almost

901
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: no media on his policies and what he's doing essentially

902
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: to help these guys.

903
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: And he's helping them, So why why I just hear,

904
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: I know what you're talking about. I just don't understand what, like,

905
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: what's the motive behind helping these people?

906
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: You know, he's the former District Attorney of San Francisco,

907
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: George Gascon. He ran here in Los Angeles right after

908
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: the summer of George Floydy let him run with a

909
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: ballot designation of criminal Justice reformer, which sounded great to

910
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: everybody in the fall of you know, twenty twenty, and

911
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: he got elected and the first thing he did. So

912
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: there's a thing called BPT Life her Hearings where this

913
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: is a huge part of my job for seventeen years.

914
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 1: You actually send prosecutors. So when you have a life sentence,

915
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: a life sentence usually doesn't mean a life sentence. A

916
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: life sentence means you get a parole hearing after fifteen

917
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: years or twenty years or whatever the determinant sentence is.

918
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: So in California, for example, for a second degree murder,

919
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: you get fifteen years to life, but you get a

920
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: parole hearing in twelve years. So human life essentially, according

921
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: to the California State Legislature and DA's like George Gascon,

922
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: is worth twelve years. So if you're murdered and there's

923
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: no you know, particular enhancements on it, the killer gets

924
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: out in twelve years, they get a parole hearing in

925
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: twelve years. And what you do is you for Orange

926
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: County and San Diego County and every other county in

927
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 1: the state pretty much, certainly Sacramento County, they will send

928
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: a representative with the file to go in there and

929
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 1: explain to the board of prison terms what the guy

930
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: actually did, how the victims feel, what you know, and

931
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: they're there to set the record straight, and they oppose

932
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: the release of the rapists, the child muster, or the murder.

933
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: George gast Going's very first day, he issued an edict

934
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles County, which produces more inmates and more

935
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: life sentences than any other county in the state of California,

936
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: pretty much any other county in the United States outside

937
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: of New York and maybe Cook County in Chicago. Immediately

938
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: forbade his prosecutors from attending those anymore. So there was

939
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 1: no prosecutor representative opposing the release. And they've been released

940
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: and parrolled into these neighborhoods that these same people profess

941
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: to care so much about. And these guys are getting out,

942
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: Murders are getting out in LA and they're getting out

943
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: in California, and it's scary times. And so your question,

944
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: do I think there's less murders. There have been way

945
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: less murders with the admin of one strike lass three

946
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: strike laws. Those things work. They're widely misunderstood, but they

947
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: work for public safety, and it's almost like we've been

948
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: lulled into this false sense of security. And you know,

949
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 1: I participated in sean Hulu called City of Angels, City

950
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: of Death, and it focused on the nineteen seventies and

951
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 1: eighties and how we had all these serial killers running

952
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: around in southern California. Then well, the glory days are

953
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: coming back. If these policies keep going towards early release

954
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: and they're trying to eliminate life without possibility of parole.

955
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: Now in the state of California, there's a bill right

956
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: now from the California State Senate making it so that

957
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: you would have an maximum of twenty five years if

958
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: you commit up to two murders and you get released automatically.

959
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: That is madness, you know. And there's situational murders, and

960
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: then there's murders where it's it's somebody that really means

961
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: to do it, like the serial killers, you know, And

962
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: in that bill they're like, but not serial killers. What

963
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: about all the serial killers? The definition is two or

964
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: more over at different times. But what if the person

965
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: gets caught at one murder and they have all the

966
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: bells and whistles and them all their urges, they just

967
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: don't technically qualify as a serial killer because we caught

968
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: them after the first one. Are they going to get out?

969
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: You know, because lock your doors if that becomes the case.

970
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: So right now there are less murders in the state

971
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: of California, but there are certain people like da George

972
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: Gascon who are literally doing everything they can to change that.

973
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 2: Does he think that is he doing? I just am

974
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: trying to figure out like why, like, is he doing

975
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,800
Speaker 2: this because he's trying to give these people like another

976
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: chance at like reforming their life, or like, what's the

977
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 2: motive behind not wanting to keep people like this behind bars?

978
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 2: I don't It's just very confusing. What is regular person?

979
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: Yeah? What is the motive behind the chant defund the police?

980
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: Which is the dumbest thing. I having worked in law

981
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: enforcement for twenty six years, it's like that is the

982
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: most moronic thing that has ever been chanted at a rally. Ever,

983
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: don't and I don't get it. It's not it's like

984
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: we're dealing with children. They haven't thought it through. And

985
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: I have seen personally like Rodney al Kala is a

986
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: perfect example of this. Rodney al Kala, the dating game killer,

987
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: kidnapped and raped an eight year old girl in Hollywood

988
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight. She was in a coma for

989
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 1: thirty two days and she survived. He fled to New York,

990
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: he changed his name, where he committed at least five

991
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: more murders for sure, but probably many more. They catch

992
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: him several years later working at an all girls sleep

993
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 1: away camp in Vermont. He gets extradited back to California.

994
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 1: He's tried and he received a life sentence in nineteen

995
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: seventy one, right life sentence in the state of California.

996
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: He goes in for his bpt's boarded prison terms parole hearing.

997
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: He got the help that he needed, he got therapy,

998
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 1: promised not to do it again, and they released that

999
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: man after thirty four months. And depending on the detective

1000
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: that you listen to and the estimates, he murdered about

1001
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: one hundred people after that. So we've got five for

1002
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: sure in southern California, just in LA and Orange County.

1003
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: There's one in morn There's two more in San Diego

1004
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: almost certainly. There was one that he was charged with

1005
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: in the state of Wyoming. There was five at least

1006
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: in New York, and he drove he got permission to

1007
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: drive back and forth across the country at least twice,

1008
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: going through Texas, Wyoming, and he left a trail everywhere

1009
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: he went. That guy could have been kept in state

1010
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: prison for life, and they let him go. And that's

1011
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: what that's what's going to happen when there's a certain

1012
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: percentage of killers that cannot be rehabilitated. The killings are situational,

1013
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: like that domestic violence case we were talking about, where

1014
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: that guy is probably not never going to do it again.

1015
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: Or that woman it's you know, she's never going to

1016
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 1: be in that same dispute with her neighbor over the fence. Right.

1017
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: There's people that aren't going to reoffend, and then there's

1018
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: human predators like rotting alcohola like the like rapists, like

1019
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: child molesters who once they cross the rubicon and justify

1020
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 1: it in their own minds, there's no fixing them. All

1021
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: the therapy in the world does not end the compulsion.

1022
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 1: You can do chemical castration, it doesn't work. It's in

1023
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: the brain. And they will keep offending, don't. I don't

1024
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 1: mean to end this interview on ambum them, but those

1025
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 1: guys are going to keep offending. And it's like we

1026
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: have forgotten it, and everybody's asleep right now and we've

1027
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: forgotten how dangerous they are. And look, when those guys

1028
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: get out, like rotting Alcolla, innocent people are going to die.

1029
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: And that has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans.

1030
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: That's a public safety thing that as communities, people need

1031
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 1: to understand. And I'm an independent politically. The only party

1032
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: I've ever blown it is the Democratic Party here in

1033
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: California until I literally couldn't take it anymore and I

1034
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: left and I became an independent. And it's this is

1035
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: not about politics. It's about kids. It's about people being

1036
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: able to walk home from school. It's about being able

1037
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: to walk out of your house to go to the

1038
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: market and not worry that some squatter is going to

1039
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: take it over or some looty child molester in the

1040
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: time that you're gone. And I just saw a thing

1041
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: on Instagram yesterday from the neighborhood I grew up in

1042
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: West la Three guys in masks lugging. It looks like

1043
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: an eight hundred pounds safe out of a house in

1044
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: West la And and I'm literally they it's the doorstop,

1045
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: Like it's three guys moving the safe and it's that

1046
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 1: they ran out of time on the reel. They had

1047
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: to skip to the end, like, and they get it

1048
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: into the car and they get away because there was

1049
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: like nobody. Nine to one one did not respond. That's

1050
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: Los Angeles now, and that's that's the future unless people

1051
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: kind of wake up a little bit and remember that

1052
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, how you vote matters, especially when it comes

1053
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: to the local district attorneys, it matters a lot.

1054
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm really happy right now that I

1055
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 2: live on the total opposite side of the country, although

1056
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: I think that it's happening in more areas than just

1057
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 2: California unfortunately. Do you think that. I mean, obviously, when

1058
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 2: there's no rules, you see it, like people even just

1059
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 2: going and robin target or whatever. I mean, when you're

1060
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 2: not going to get in trouble for shoplifting, people are

1061
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 2: going to take advantage of that. I feel like the

1062
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: same thing might happen with the murder situation. I mean,

1063
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 2: I know a lot of them are impulsive things that

1064
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 2: you wouldn't drive to California to do it, But if

1065
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 2: you're a serial killer or something, maybe you might consider

1066
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 2: going to another state and doing it because you know

1067
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: that there's less likely of a chance you're getting in

1068
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: trouble for it.

1069
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: Well, look, you're absolutely right. And when you go back

1070
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: through history the idea of attaching consequences to negative behavior,

1071
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: they figured this out in the time of Abi with

1072
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: the key, your form first written language. I mean, there's

1073
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,919
Speaker 1: a penal code in there where they talk about consequences

1074
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: for actions, and the ancient Greeks talk about it, and

1075
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: the ancient Romans talk about it, and we're in this

1076
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 1: weird phase where it's almost like historical arrogance. We think

1077
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: that because we've got we've advanced so much technologically and

1078
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: we figured out DNA and we can do zoom interviews

1079
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: like this, that we have some corner on human behavior.

1080
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: And the bottom line is when you remove consequences from

1081
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: actions like that, you're absolutely right. People put it in

1082
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: the calculus and they're like, well, I'm going to go

1083
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: rob that jewelry store because the worst thing that's going

1084
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: to happen is I'm going to get probation. And it's

1085
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: a calculation, and it's absolutely a calculation for serial killers.

1086
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: And they ponder the consequences and they think about things like,

1087
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: am I in a state that is actually going to

1088
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: execute me that that is something that factors into the

1089
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: decision making when you're talking about those types of murderers.

1090
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: And you couldn't be more right. And look, there's people

1091
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 1: forget about this, that this is a social compact, because

1092
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: if you go to countries with there isn't a functioning

1093
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: justice system, what happens is it's not just that killers

1094
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 1: just get away with it, and you know, and that's

1095
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: the end of it. What happens is the families of

1096
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: the victims. It comes, it is on them to get justice.

1097
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: And that's what we saw with the Vendettas of Italy,

1098
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, around the turn of the century, where there

1099
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: was no real functioning justice system and the families had

1100
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: to avenge their own murders, and you had entire villages

1101
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: emptied of men because it went tit for tat where

1102
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: these different communities and these different little towns were killing

1103
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: each other because you know, because they were seeking justice

1104
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: on behalf of their loved one. It does, it's it

1105
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: is a really bad formula. And everybody's forgotten that that's

1106
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: a part of the deal. And I've got families. I

1107
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: can tell you right now that I have we caught

1108
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: the bad guy. We held them accountable. We got them

1109
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: in state prison. I've had a few where there were

1110
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: men in that family. You know, if you murder somebody's daughter,

1111
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: you ripe and murder somebody's daughter, or you kill their

1112
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: son in a drug deal or whatever it may be,

1113
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: that they absolutely would have taken justice out themselves if

1114
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't for this social contract of the state is

1115
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: going to do this so you don't have to, And

1116
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: it means there's less violence in the communities, there's less pressure,

1117
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: and those poor victims shouldn't have to worry about that.

1118
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: And people like George Gascon have forgotten all about that.

1119
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: And look, I think that's what's happening in south Side

1120
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: Chicago right now. I think that the community and the

1121
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: policing and the community, the justice system has failed those communities.

1122
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: I think they have a seventeen percent clearance rate and

1123
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: of their homicides in Sell Chicago, and that's just and

1124
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: they're a clearance for them is an arrest, it's not

1125
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: even a conviction. So once they make an arrest, they

1126
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: count that as clear So what is that you get

1127
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: a ninety percent chance of getting away with a homicide

1128
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: in Sell Chicago, And if your loved one is murdered

1129
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: by some thug or by somebody you know who it is,

1130
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: and they're getting away with it. That causes them to

1131
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: seek justice or their friends to seek justice. And that's

1132
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 1: a mess. And that is the road that you know,

1133
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: and less good people like your listeners, you know, or

1134
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: people that attend crime con or people that care wake

1135
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: up to that. You know. I really I grew up

1136
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: in LA and I really worry about that. And I

1137
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: think the home side rate is going to go you know,

1138
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: I think it's going to go way up unless there's

1139
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: some changes.

1140
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 2: Well, I would just like to state for the record

1141
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,919
Speaker 2: that if anyone ever hurt my children and the justice

1142
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 2: system didn't do anything about it, I one hundred percent

1143
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: would take matters into my own hands. And I think

1144
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: that a lot of people would say that, you know

1145
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: what I mean. So it is a really horrible road

1146
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: to go down. And I never thought about that with

1147
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 2: what's going on in Chicago until you just said that.

1148
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 2: But that totally makes sense that they're just seeking out revenge.

1149
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 2: And it's when I was at the Medical Examiner's office

1150
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 2: in Philly. You know, we have similar things going on here,

1151
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 2: just not on that level. But I would do autopsies

1152
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: on like an eight year old kid that had five names,

1153
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 2: rip on his hand or on his arm tattooed, you know,

1154
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 2: and and just be like, how are all these people

1155
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 2: that know each other like getting killed like this and stuff.

1156
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,439
Speaker 2: It's just so it's like a terrible road to go down,

1157
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 2: you know, right.

1158
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: If it wasn't for people you're doing your job, I

1159
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't mad them with two mine, Like, you're truly like

1160
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes heroes of homicides and homicide prosecutions,

1161
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: truly are the people that are putting in the forensic work.

1162
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: I feel like at the Medical Examiner's office, especially those

1163
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 2: people doing autopsies, they just are extra special people because

1164
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 2: it's a lot to just see people getting murdered every

1165
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 2: single day of your life. And it's it's not it

1166
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 2: doesn't look pretty. It's it's devastating to see it's children,

1167
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: it's all different things, and you hear horrible stories every day,

1168
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 2: and it's just I feel like it's very When I

1169
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 2: did my internship there, it was very emotionally heavy for me.

1170
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: And to be able to do that every single day

1171
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 2: of your life is is very admirable. So sure, I

1172
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 2: definitely understand that.

1173
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you put you put your time in you

1174
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: definitely did, Yeah.

1175
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: For sure. So one question I have for you, This

1176
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: is kind of a weird question, I guess, but have

1177
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 2: you ever you meet these criminals, and I'm assuming that

1178
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 2: some of them are you would think, and this is

1179
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: kind of a weird way to say this, but they're

1180
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 2: very intelligent the way that they carry out the crime

1181
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 2: and the time they put into it, and the obsession

1182
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 2: they have with it. Do you ever sit there and think, like, well,

1183
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 2: if this person used this kind of this this mind

1184
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: to do something good for the world, they could be

1185
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 2: like the next Deep Jobs or something, if they put

1186
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 2: this effort into a positive project instead of instead of

1187
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 2: trying to murder people.

1188
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 1: You know, especially the conspiracies to commit murder from money.

1189
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: The amount of time that they spend putting these plots together.

1190
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: It's like, dude, you could write a screenplay and probably

1191
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: sell it. It's so elaborate, you know. But but that's

1192
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about, you know, somebody that

1193
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: is willing to murder somebody for money. They tend to

1194
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: be into shortcuts. You know, they don't they don't want

1195
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: to put them. They want to they want to exercise

1196
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: their big brain and not necessarily work, you know. And

1197
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 1: I had I had a couple of cases like that

1198
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: where there were, in fact that a few where it's

1199
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: like if only you had had the discipline to go

1200
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: through school, if you're running a corporation with that brain

1201
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of it really is very clever. The

1202
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: lucky for me, the guys I work with, the men

1203
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: and women that the detectives that I got to work

1204
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: with were usually smarter than the bad guys we were

1205
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: going after. Uh And yeah, absolutely, it's it's one of

1206
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: the it's one of the tragic things about murder cases

1207
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: in general because when you when you break it down,

1208
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: like what they want, it's like in a domestic violence

1209
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: like you want you want to get back together a

1210
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: lot of times, or they're losing control of their person's

1211
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: cheating and killing them isn't a good part of that plan.

1212
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: Like if that's the goal, taking them off the planet

1213
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: is not a good way to get there, Like it is,

1214
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: so much of it is self defeating, you know. And

1215
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: there's a one of the cases I talked about in

1216
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 1: the book is my Daniel Wosne in a case and

1217
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: that was when you break down the plan that this

1218
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: guy enacted, he did not need, like murdering a second

1219
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: person that he used as a decoy to throw the

1220
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: police off the scent of the first murder was the

1221
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: dumbest thing that he could have done when you break

1222
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 1: down the plan. And I talked about that in the book.

1223
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: But Hunter, you know they are My old investigator Larry

1224
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: Montgomery put it very well. He said, you know when

1225
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: you when you untangle one of these murder cases, he said,

1226
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: they always expect their first plan to work. And he said,

1227
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: there they roll the dice more so than they played chess.

1228
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: So they're not thinking three and four moves down the

1229
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: line like this doesn't work. They're not building in redundancies.

1230
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: They they tend to hope you know this. You know

1231
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 1: you're going to say this, and I'm going to say this,

1232
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: and then the cops are going to believe this, and

1233
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: then they go and do it. And Mike Tyson has

1234
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 1: a great quote, the great philosopher Mike Tyson, Right, it's

1235
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face.

1236
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my husband's favorite quote.

1237
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 1: Time. Yeah, right, And that's and that applies with with murders.

1238
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: You know, when they plan a murder, life happens and

1239
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: the car pulls into the parking lot that they're not expecting,

1240
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: or the phone rings at the wrong time. There's always

1241
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: stuff that happens that that impacts that plan. And you know,

1242
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: when you've got you've got a decent bunch of detectives

1243
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: with a little bit of resources and support from their agencies,

1244
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: and especially if they're working with a prosecutor who has

1245
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: some experience, those cases will get solved more often than not.

1246
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: And and you know it sounds corny to say, but

1247
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: the good guys will win those if they if they

1248
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: do the right things.

1249
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 2: So well, I think the investigating crimes or just pathology autopsies,

1250
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 2: anything like that, you have to have somewhat of like

1251
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:15,479
Speaker 2: a sick brain to think like what would what would

1252
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: these people do? But then you don't go further and

1253
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 2: actually do anything about it, But you can kind of

1254
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 2: think on their level, like how they're doing it. And

1255
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: but you're a decent person, You're not you're not really

1256
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: a serial killer.

1257
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: You know, the best detectives and the best prosecutors are

1258
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: all a little obsessive, and they know the dark. You

1259
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: know what I mean, like the best the best cops

1260
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: are always the one that probably like had a point

1261
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 1: in his young life or her young life, or they

1262
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: could have gone the other way and decided they were

1263
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: exactly truth justice in the American way versus going going bad.

1264
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: Those are the ones something with trial work. The best

1265
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: trial lawyers tend to be the ones that that were

1266
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: hung over when they took the bar, you know, like

1267
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: the ones that that live life, that you know that

1268
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 1: are from the real world, not academia so much. But

1269
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 1: the ones that can look at, you know, a blue

1270
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: collar jury in the eye and understand what they what

1271
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 1: they're listening for, and what they want to hear. Those

1272
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: are the toughest people always to try case against because

1273
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 1: they get it.

1274
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Well, thanks so much for being here today.

1275
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 2: It was awesome talking with you.

1276
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: I had a blast. I had a blast. Thank you

1277
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: so much.

1278
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder,

1279
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a

1280
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

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Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

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Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

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Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

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Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

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Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

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Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

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Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed

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Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

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Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

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Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

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Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

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01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

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Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

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Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks