Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and
Speaker 1: Matt and today we're discussing starting a business with zero
Speaker 1: dollars with Alan Donnegan. Yeah, Joel. Alan Donnegan is our
Speaker 1: guest today and he is one of the co founders
Speaker 1: of pop Up Business School, which is on a mission
Speaker 1: to change the way entrepreneurship is taught. They're getting folks
Speaker 1: to create their own sustainable startups by not taking on
Speaker 1: massive amounts of debt. When almost half of new businesses
Speaker 1: fail within their first five years, it's clear that this
Speaker 1: is the type of guidance that is needed today, especially
Speaker 1: given the uncertain times that we're living in. Allan's motto
Speaker 1: is fail fast and fail cheap, and through trial and error,
Speaker 1: he has built up his own business without ever having
Speaker 1: taken on any debt. So today we're going to dive
Speaker 1: into his story as well as how you can start
Speaker 1: a business with zero dollars. So Alan, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining us on the podcast. Matt, Joel, I've been
Speaker 1: looking forward to this. Hey, we have to Alan, We're
Speaker 1: really excited to get a chat with you today. And
Speaker 1: by the way, on every episode, Matt and I we
Speaker 1: drink a craft beer because it's something that we love.
Speaker 1: And today we're drinking a stout by one of my friends, John,
Speaker 1: who's got a little microbrewery called Little Cottage Brewing, And
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to have this one on the show today.
Speaker 1: But Alan, what is your craft beer equivalent? What's something
Speaker 1: you're willing to spend money on in the here and
Speaker 1: now while you're also trying to save and invest well
Speaker 1: for your future. Actually it's Lego. Lego is my craft bear,
Speaker 1: like the toy Lego. The toy. Yes, don't judge me.
Speaker 1: I'm a forty one year Lego. There's actually a term
Speaker 1: for what we are. It's a a f o l
Speaker 1: adult adult fan of Lego, and I am a huge
Speaker 1: fan of that. So I spend money on Lego sets, Dude,
Speaker 1: that's all. Sometimes I love that. I love what kind
Speaker 1: of the outside of the box things that people bring
Speaker 1: to the table when they're passionate about something. I think
Speaker 1: when people are passionate about kind of things that that
Speaker 1: aren't mainstream. So I dig your Lego addiction. Man, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like Lego's pretty mainstream, like in
Speaker 1: some of the malls which are all closed by the way,
Speaker 1: but like I know here in Atlanta, like you have
Speaker 1: what is it the like Lego Land? Is it called
Speaker 1: Legoland Alan? When you visit Atlanta will take you to
Speaker 1: Lego Land. But like you can go there and they've
Speaker 1: got all the different kits and I don't know what
Speaker 1: you call them, ellen, but just the different packages that
Speaker 1: you can get where you can build stuff. But how
Speaker 1: do they categorize these different things that you buy, Like
Speaker 1: when you buy say, like the Death Star, do they
Speaker 1: say that like this is a two thousand piece Lego
Speaker 1: set or like like is there a difficulty rating? When
Speaker 1: it comes to some of those different models. They have
Speaker 1: age ranges on the front of them, which I always
Speaker 1: find using, like how old you have to be to
Speaker 1: do them. I tend to buy the sixteen years plus
Speaker 1: sets to make sure that there's a bit of a challenge.
Speaker 1: But they do these range of modular buildings where you
Speaker 1: can actually build yourself a mini Lego city. And that's
Speaker 1: my dream one day is to build a Lego city.
Speaker 1: That's what I want to do. Very cool. I know
Speaker 1: I've seen some Frank Woyd right kits where basically you
Speaker 1: can recreate some of his most famous pieces of architecture
Speaker 1: that he's created like falling water, Like you can get
Speaker 1: that in lego for him and build it and then
Speaker 1: have it slowly fall into the river over a matter
Speaker 1: of decades. Well, Ale, tell us about your overall view
Speaker 1: towards money and how it was influenced by your upbringing.
Speaker 1: You know, in particular, there's a story involving a suitcase
Speaker 1: of money that your that your dad brought home one day.
Speaker 1: But yeah, how did you view money as a child. Yeah,
Speaker 1: money was heavily influenced by my family. We had a
Speaker 1: huge amount at one stage, and then we had nothing
Speaker 1: at another stage, and my dad ran his own business,
Speaker 1: and I always remember in the early days, he came
Speaker 1: home one day with a giant suitcase of money after
Speaker 1: having done a deal, and my little brother and I
Speaker 1: we were probably eight and six or maybe a bit younger.
Speaker 1: We sat in the lounge and he tasked us with
Speaker 1: putting all of the notes the same way around so
Speaker 1: they were ready to be paid into the bank the
Speaker 1: next day. And there was like a hundred grand in cash,
Speaker 1: and you had to put all the queen's heads the
Speaker 1: right way around. Um. So it was kind of the experience.
Speaker 1: And he always had cash about until he went bankrupt,
Speaker 1: and he went bankrupt very significantly for three point six
Speaker 1: million pounds, so about five million dollars. And that was
Speaker 1: way back in the eighties nineties. It's a massive amount
Speaker 1: of money back then. And we were then doing car
Speaker 1: boot sales or what would you call them, like yard
Speaker 1: sales to raise enough money to be able to buy
Speaker 1: food for the week. So my upbringing had a huge
Speaker 1: impact on the way I think of money and specifically
Speaker 1: my aversion to debt. Sure. Yeah, it seemed like that
Speaker 1: there was a very maybe had of very fluid view
Speaker 1: of money, you know, I mean, having experienced plenty of
Speaker 1: money but then also having experienced not having enough. Um,
Speaker 1: it was something that maybe hopefully that you had control over.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm sure that had a lot to do
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, And that always like those childhood memories
Speaker 1: of money and what it was like, like how your
Speaker 1: parents talked about it and how they handled it, and
Speaker 1: the things that you saw in front of your very eyes, like,
Speaker 1: they impact us so heavily. Alan, So I gotta think
Speaker 1: that that has just left this massive imprint on on
Speaker 1: the way you've moved forward in your adult life and
Speaker 1: how you handle money today. What's the beliefs that get
Speaker 1: repeated to you, the things like money is the root
Speaker 1: of evil, all evil. A family member actually repeated to
Speaker 1: meet that to me this week. And it's really interesting
Speaker 1: when you hear these beliefs that people have about what
Speaker 1: money is, especially as it's an inanimate object, and if
Speaker 1: you want to really get a grasp of your finances,
Speaker 1: you need to change the way you think about it
Speaker 1: and what you believe about it. And money isn't the
Speaker 1: root of all evil. It's the things people do to
Speaker 1: get it or to hold onto it. And actually, when
Speaker 1: I've started to change my beliefs in the way I
Speaker 1: think about money, it's more regularly flowed into my life,
Speaker 1: and I now believe money is an amazing tool and
Speaker 1: you can do incredible things with money. So I look
Speaker 1: after it and I respect it, and it's quite high
Speaker 1: up my values list because it is an important tool,
Speaker 1: is an important resource, and life is a lot more
Speaker 1: difficult without it. Sure, yeah, that's very true. Alan. It
Speaker 1: seems like every entrepreneur, and you are an entrepreneur to
Speaker 1: a t has some sort of like hustle story from
Speaker 1: their childhood. They gave them kind of a taste of
Speaker 1: what it could be like to be. They're they're very
Speaker 1: own boss. So what was your first entrepreneurial endeavor when
Speaker 1: you were a kid. My first one was actually the
Speaker 1: best business model ever by the moment. Would buy the
Speaker 1: ingredients for some food. I would make Mars bar cake,
Speaker 1: which I don't know if you ever had Mars barquape.
Speaker 1: You basically get rice crispies and then melt Mars bars
Speaker 1: and butter over it. It's indulge in. It's incredible. And
Speaker 1: then I would go and sell at school and I
Speaker 1: would keep all the profits. So I had a hundred
Speaker 1: percent profit because I didn't buy the ingredients and it
Speaker 1: was incredible and I made money. Um. And that carried
Speaker 1: on and actually when I was at college, which is
Speaker 1: sixteen to eighteen in England, I made more money in
Speaker 1: college than I did at my first jobs through side
Speaker 1: hustles selling stuff. Um. And that led to realizing that
Speaker 1: actually you can make good money doing this stuff. M Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that that. I like how I mean, there
Speaker 1: are certain lessons that I feel that we try to
Speaker 1: teach our kids, including and I was like, well, you
Speaker 1: gotta payback mommy and daddy for the supplies and all that.
Speaker 1: But there's something to be said about starting things off
Speaker 1: on a very positive foot, and positive is a very
Speaker 1: positive but off on when you're trying to instill some
Speaker 1: of the lessons that you can teach your kids with
Speaker 1: our trepreneurship, right. But you know, so Alan, like, obviously
Speaker 1: it seems that you were maybe like you're going to
Speaker 1: be an entrepreneur no matter what you know. With your
Speaker 1: dad being in business. It sounds like your parents encouraged that.
Speaker 1: But like, in your opinion, do you think that everyone
Speaker 1: is cut out to be an entrepreneur? Well? I think it,
Speaker 1: Like so, just for me, it wasn't guaranteed. My mom
Speaker 1: didn't want me to be an entrepreneur, didn't want me
Speaker 1: to go and neither did my granny. They both wanted
Speaker 1: me to get a straight job to follow that route,
Speaker 1: and I did for many years and actually from the
Speaker 1: ages of twenty three to eight, I did the corporate
Speaker 1: job stuff. I just didn't fit in. Um So I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting when you look at people's paths, but entrepreneurship,
Speaker 1: that's back to that question, are you born an entrepreneur?
Speaker 1: Can you learn it? I think there are beliefs and
Speaker 1: thought patterns that are installed in you as when you
Speaker 1: are young, that will help you to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1: But I truly believe anyone can learn this stuff if
Speaker 1: they want to. And that thing that people say, I
Speaker 1: am not an entrepreneur, well that's just because you haven't
Speaker 1: done it yet. Let's have a go and then you
Speaker 1: can call yourself an entrepreneur and then you'll start to
Speaker 1: make progress. And I think it's learned skills. There you go.
Speaker 1: So what typically then, Alan stops people, in your opinion,
Speaker 1: from starting in business, starting that entrepreneurial endeavor that they
Speaker 1: really would love to get going. But yeah, what's the
Speaker 1: thing holding them back? Typically? I'd love to know. Matt Joel,
Speaker 1: do you think entrepreneurship is risky? I think most people
Speaker 1: would say that it is. But actually I've come around
Speaker 1: over the years because I think I was ingrained to
Speaker 1: be less entrepreneurial minded more work for someone else, and
Speaker 1: I've grown to see that actually that's pretty risky putting
Speaker 1: all your eggs in one basket as opposed to maybe
Speaker 1: a more diversified basket of entrepreneurialism. Yeah, I mean, and
Speaker 1: like you said, Alan, I think a lot of times
Speaker 1: the safe route is what's taught in the US as
Speaker 1: well as maybe the UK. But you know, going to school,
Speaker 1: getting a degree, getting a safe, dependable job, that seems
Speaker 1: to be kind of like the slam dunk option for
Speaker 1: for most folks. And entrepreneurship because it's not taught, because
Speaker 1: starting your own business isn't taught, I feel that it
Speaker 1: is viewed as more risky because it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: the it's the fear of the unknown, essentially, and so
Speaker 1: when you're not taught something, there's reasons to be scared
Speaker 1: of something if you don't know how it works. You know,
Speaker 1: like if you know nothing about electricity, you better not
Speaker 1: mess with electricity because you know, you might kill yourself.
Speaker 1: And so I think there can be times when people
Speaker 1: take that and they apply it to maybe entrepreneurship as well,
Speaker 1: because they don't exactly know how it works and they
Speaker 1: think that they could potentially mess things up. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that answers your question, but it does,
Speaker 1: and there's actually a lot there because you're right, the
Speaker 1: standard path is what gets taught. Go to school, get
Speaker 1: good grades, go to college, get good grades, get a
Speaker 1: good job, follow the job, get a pet, get a house,
Speaker 1: proof you can't kill the pet before you have a kid,
Speaker 1: have kids, work for fifty years, retire at seventy. Die.
Speaker 1: That's the standard plan for life and anything outside that
Speaker 1: people consider risky, especially entrepreneurship, and it's predicated or based
Speaker 1: upon the belief that it takes money to make money,
Speaker 1: and nearly all entrepreneurship starts with make a list of
Speaker 1: the stuff you need to start your business, put a
Speaker 1: dollar or a pound amount against it, and work out
Speaker 1: how much money you need to borrow to start up.
Speaker 1: And the whole thing is based on I need money
Speaker 1: to start. And if you're going into debt to launch
Speaker 1: a business, it is risky. It's highly risky, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that way. There are so many
Speaker 1: ways to start without ever going into debt. And if
Speaker 1: you start without debt, what you're risking is a little
Speaker 1: bit of time and energy, not dollars, and I think
Speaker 1: that's the distinction. You do have to take risk, but
Speaker 1: you can choose the type of risk. So you can
Speaker 1: choose whether it's risking time, energy, or money or a
Speaker 1: combination of all three, and you get to decide which
Speaker 1: risk you take. Yeah, so an I don't note, I
Speaker 1: mean you're you're talking about traditional business plans essentially, right, um.
Speaker 1: And you've mentioned before how those business plans that like
Speaker 1: they're essentially worthless, you know, but every article that you
Speaker 1: ever read about starting a business like that list that
Speaker 1: out as as one of the most necessary parts of
Speaker 1: getting the ball rolling. So you know, in your opinion,
Speaker 1: why don't these business plans actually work well? I think
Speaker 1: there's a few reasons, Um. Number one is, business plans
Speaker 1: are often written in isolation before you've even spoken to
Speaker 1: a customer, and people have these ideas and thoughts in
Speaker 1: their head. They put them on the paper, but they've
Speaker 1: never tried them in reality. My opinion is, try it first,
Speaker 1: and then afterwards, maybe you write out what found out.
Speaker 1: And I did exactly this. I spent two weeks writing
Speaker 1: a business plan. It was beautiful, had colored graphs, it
Speaker 1: was gorgeous document. I put it in the draw and
Speaker 1: then I went to see a real life customer and
Speaker 1: I learned more in an hour's conversation with a real
Speaker 1: life customer than I did in two weeks of research
Speaker 1: on the internet and writing a business plan. And basically,
Speaker 1: they said to me, we don't want what you've written.
Speaker 1: Our problem is something else, and then I had a
Speaker 1: choice in that moment to either stick with my business
Speaker 1: plan or to quit and change and sell what the
Speaker 1: customer actually wanted. And so what I would say to
Speaker 1: you is, before you write a business plan, before you
Speaker 1: do anything, go speak to a real customer. That's where
Speaker 1: the learning is UM. But most people think you need
Speaker 1: to write the business plan, then you need to take
Speaker 1: it to a bank and borrow the money, or you
Speaker 1: need to get the money from somewhere, and you just
Speaker 1: don't have to do that. Yeah, well, we want to
Speaker 1: hear all about alan your specific steps in how to
Speaker 1: start a business with zero dollars or zero pounds, depending
Speaker 1: on which side of the pond people are listening to
Speaker 1: this this episode on. But there's one story that has
Speaker 1: stuck out to me that you've shared before, and I
Speaker 1: think that's a good kind of set up for us
Speaker 1: as we begin to then ask those questions about how
Speaker 1: the specific steps people can take. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: about how you help the homeless man start a business.
Speaker 1: It's this kind of inspiring story that I think UM
Speaker 1: can help all of us see maybe the hidden ways
Speaker 1: in which we have resources at our disposal that we
Speaker 1: just haven't even thought about so one of the very
Speaker 1: early pop up business schools, one of the ways we
Speaker 1: teach people how to start a business with no debt
Speaker 1: is to sell what they've already got. So if you
Speaker 1: look around your house, you've probably got a load of
Speaker 1: old DVDs, old stuff, board games, who knows what it is.
Speaker 1: We can sell that race and money and use that
Speaker 1: to start the business. And there was one guy in
Speaker 1: the audience who at the time was homeless, and all
Speaker 1: he had was a backpack, a old iPad with a
Speaker 1: crack screen, and the clothes he was wearing. And he
Speaker 1: just looked at us and went, well, I don't have
Speaker 1: anything to sell. And we were thinking, well, how can
Speaker 1: we help this guy raise some money to get going.
Speaker 1: So we actually asked the question, do you know anyone
Speaker 1: who does have something that you could help sell? And
Speaker 1: he thought for a minute, and he thought about some
Speaker 1: of his friends, and he said, well, okay, I've got
Speaker 1: a couple of friends who do live in nice houses,
Speaker 1: and they've got garages full of stuff that they don't use.
Speaker 1: She said to him, well, why don't you do a
Speaker 1: deal and help them to clear out their garages and
Speaker 1: sell off the stuff and then keep a percentage of
Speaker 1: the profits, and that's what he did. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the things about entrepreneurship is there are so
Speaker 1: many opportunity if you get yourself into a resourceful state
Speaker 1: to look for them. And there's always something you can
Speaker 1: sell or something you can do to raise money to
Speaker 1: get to where you want to be. And there's a
Speaker 1: million businesses we could start straight away that you could
Speaker 1: do without debt. And it might not be your dream
Speaker 1: business to start with, but it will help you get
Speaker 1: to where you need to be. Yeah, there's ways for
Speaker 1: us to be resourceful and scrappy even yea, even when
Speaker 1: we have very few contacts, even when we have very
Speaker 1: few resources, uh, you know, to our own name. So Alan,
Speaker 1: like Joel mentioned, we're gonna talk more about the steps
Speaker 1: that we can take in order to get our businesses
Speaker 1: off the ground, and we'll get to those right after
Speaker 1: this break back from the break we're talking with Alan
Speaker 1: don Agan and we're talking about starting a business, hopefully
Speaker 1: with no money. So Alan, you've already given us I
Speaker 1: think you know, and it's hiring story there and we've
Speaker 1: already covered some ground on the lack of a need
Speaker 1: for a traditional business plan in order to get started.
Speaker 1: So if we don't need to write the business plan,
Speaker 1: what is the first step in getting a business off
Speaker 1: the ground? In your opinion, the first step, I mean
Speaker 1: you need an idea, you need a thought of what
Speaker 1: you're going to do. And the question we actually ask
Speaker 1: of the pop up business school is what do you
Speaker 1: enjoy doing? What do you do where time vanishes? What
Speaker 1: do you enjoy spending your time on? And then let's
Speaker 1: figure out how to make money doing something you enjoy,
Speaker 1: because if you enjoy doing it when it gets tough,
Speaker 1: and it will get tough at a certain point, that
Speaker 1: enjoyment is what keeps you coming back and makes you
Speaker 1: want to get up on a Monday morning and do
Speaker 1: it even if it is hard sometimes. So we start
Speaker 1: with what do you enjoy? Then we start to think
Speaker 1: about what do people want? And actually businesses about fixing
Speaker 1: problems for customers. So if we can find what you
Speaker 1: eno oi and who needs that service, that you can
Speaker 1: fix their problems and then we just go and sell
Speaker 1: it to them. And actually, if we were to say
Speaker 1: how our method is different to the traditional the number
Speaker 1: one way is that we start with sales, but nearly
Speaker 1: all business training programs end with sales rather than starting
Speaker 1: with them. And I think the quickest way to learn
Speaker 1: is to get out there in front of a real
Speaker 1: customer and ask them if they want to buy what
Speaker 1: you do. Yeah, so, yeah, Alan, you I mean you're
Speaker 1: you're kind of mentioning that when we're talking about the
Speaker 1: business plan, you're pretty keen on selling before you take
Speaker 1: you know, some of these big boy business steps, and
Speaker 1: so can you talk more about that, like why are
Speaker 1: are you all about skipping these other traditional business formation
Speaker 1: steps and starting with selling because you don't know if
Speaker 1: anyone wants it whatever it is you're planning. Absolutely, And
Speaker 1: this is actually what happens so many times. It's why
Speaker 1: so many entrepreneurs around the world to have garages full
Speaker 1: of stuff they can't sell because they bought a load
Speaker 1: of things, they've made a load of T shirts, they
Speaker 1: produced it before they've sold it, and then they find
Speaker 1: that no one actually wants it. I say, do the
Speaker 1: exact opposite. Before you write the training course, find someone
Speaker 1: who wants it before you produce the T shirt, Sell
Speaker 1: it from the design before you build anything. Sell it first.
Speaker 1: Then you know if someone wants it. But that kind
Speaker 1: of brings us to the question why don't people sell first?
Speaker 1: Like what puts them off? And Matt and Joel. If
Speaker 1: I say to you the words salesman, what's the first
Speaker 1: word that comes to mind? Salesman, schmarmy, Like salesman in
Speaker 1: and of itself, it is just a negative kind of exactly.
Speaker 1: And so even that the term itself has this negative
Speaker 1: attached to it, and so that yeah, if you if
Speaker 1: you say a salesman, it's like, oh, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be that. Yeah, and I'm They're telling everyone to
Speaker 1: start a business, you have to sell, and they have
Speaker 1: this instant reaction of yuck. I don't want to be schmimy.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be pushy. I don't want to
Speaker 1: have a shiny suit, I don't want to sell used
Speaker 1: cars like get away from me sales. And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1: I've run that exact exercise in Africa, in America, in England,
Speaker 1: all around the world, and it's the same reaction to sales.
Speaker 1: They think it is pushing something on someone. So the
Speaker 1: first step is actually to realize sales is about finding
Speaker 1: someone with a problem that you can fix. So what
Speaker 1: I would do is I would identify how my service
Speaker 1: or product makes someone else's life better, and then I
Speaker 1: would go around asking people if they have the problem
Speaker 1: that I fix, and if they do, that's when I
Speaker 1: can pitch them the product or service. Sales is not
Speaker 1: about pushing stuff on people. Sales is actually the process
Speaker 1: of making the world a better place. And if you
Speaker 1: look at it like that, you suddenly get inspired to
Speaker 1: go out there and sell more because every time you sell,
Speaker 1: you make someone else's life a little bit better and
Speaker 1: you get slightly wealthier. Yeah. I dig that, So I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: we need a sea change maybe in just kind of
Speaker 1: our mindset about what sales means. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a good reframe. Uh So. Yeah. Another piece of traditional
Speaker 1: advice Alan is that people need to take on debt
Speaker 1: in order to get things off the ground. In order
Speaker 1: to get the business started, you need the seed money.
Speaker 1: And you know this this whole episode, really, this is
Speaker 1: like the crux of what we want to get at.
Speaker 1: Why is it so bad to start a business with that,
Speaker 1: getting a loan from a bank, borrowing from friends and family,
Speaker 1: that all the many ways in which people actually start
Speaker 1: a business. Why, in your opinion, it's that just a
Speaker 1: terrible way to go about it. Well, I think mostly
Speaker 1: it's a terrible way to go about it, because people
Speaker 1: spend that money that they borrow from friends, family or
Speaker 1: the bank instantly, and they tend to spend it on
Speaker 1: stuff they don't actually need. They buy a fancy new laptop,
Speaker 1: they get some offices. I know what, our print a
Speaker 1: thousand business cards with my new logo so that I
Speaker 1: can feel special, And they buy a load of stuff
Speaker 1: they don't actually need to launch the business. And if
Speaker 1: you just started it, starting it with no debt forces
Speaker 1: you to be creative, and it means if it does
Speaker 1: go wrong and you don't enjoy running it, then you're
Speaker 1: not in the hole. You don't have to clamber back out.
Speaker 1: And I know so many people who have borrowed money
Speaker 1: to build businesses. They've done it for a year, realized
Speaker 1: they didn't enjoy it, and then they have to go
Speaker 1: and get a job to pay back the loan they've got.
Speaker 1: And why bother, why bother doing any of that if
Speaker 1: you don't have to. Yeah, and I've got to think
Speaker 1: that the risks involved with starting your own business these days,
Speaker 1: you know, with just the pandemic, the coronavirus um, I
Speaker 1: feel like the risks that are inherent with entrepreneurship are
Speaker 1: actually even maybe a little bit larger, and so like,
Speaker 1: it would make sense that going into debts during these
Speaker 1: times for something like your own business would be an
Speaker 1: even even worse move, right, I'm just doing it's entirely
Speaker 1: at this time, in uncertain times, things are moving quickly
Speaker 1: and you just don't know what would work. And well,
Speaker 1: let me give a clear example. Let's say you were
Speaker 1: building a product. Let's say the three of us were
Speaker 1: going to design a new board game. We could have
Speaker 1: a lot of fun with me too, I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 1: Let's say we designed this board game. It's a finance
Speaker 1: board game or whatever it is, has you and I
Speaker 1: faces on the little models as they move around, and
Speaker 1: we build businesses and we do all sorts of crazy stuff.
Speaker 1: We design this board game. Now, what most people do
Speaker 1: traditionally is they go, well, I need ten grands to
Speaker 1: be able to do the first print run to get
Speaker 1: all of these board games printed, and then I will
Speaker 1: sell them. And that is the traditional model is you
Speaker 1: create first and sell second. But the world changed many
Speaker 1: years ago and you just don't have to do that.
Speaker 1: And actually, most board game manufacturers now realize this and
Speaker 1: they run kickstarters or they reach out to the audience
Speaker 1: and they put up the designs, they show the pictures.
Speaker 1: They haven't built it, they've just got a sample and
Speaker 1: they've got some designs, and they sell it through a
Speaker 1: kickstarter campaign or something else. They bring the money in first,
Speaker 1: and then they use the customers money to print the
Speaker 1: first order to be able to fulfill the orders. That's
Speaker 1: selling your value before you create it, and that's one
Speaker 1: of the most critical things. You've got to sell first
Speaker 1: and then create second. We can design it and we
Speaker 1: can prove it works, and we can show them the pictures.
Speaker 1: That's time and energy, but we don't have to money.
Speaker 1: And there are so many ways. I mean, you, the
Speaker 1: three of us, we could knock up a free website
Speaker 1: in a couple of hours. We could come up with
Speaker 1: the ideas for the game. We could sketch out first board.
Speaker 1: I'm sure one of us has got a friend somewhere
Speaker 1: that's a graphics designer that could help us put it
Speaker 1: and make it look pretty. We could get that out
Speaker 1: and put a buy now button and see if anyone buys.
Speaker 1: Then we've got no risk. Right, So so that's how
Speaker 1: right like that's how you are able to go about
Speaker 1: starting your business without debt. Like what are some like
Speaker 1: other ways where you can start your own small business
Speaker 1: without any money without actually going into debt. Do you
Speaker 1: have some other examples? Yes? Absolutely, And I guess the
Speaker 1: first question is it depends whether you're selling a product
Speaker 1: or a service. Service based industries tend to be a
Speaker 1: lot easier. Let me give you one example. There's a
Speaker 1: fabulous business in reading in the UK that we help
Speaker 1: start up in the early days. They're called time trap
Speaker 1: escape rooms, and you might be thinking, well, how do
Speaker 1: you start an escape room with no money? That's quite
Speaker 1: difficult because you need a building. And the way this
Speaker 1: couple did it there named a Katie and Andrew, and
Speaker 1: they wanted to get a building to set up their
Speaker 1: escape room, and following our course, they decided to go
Speaker 1: round and try and borrow a space. So they went
Speaker 1: into the local town. They went to every restaurant, every hotel,
Speaker 1: and they told them what they were trying to do
Speaker 1: and asked if they had any spare space. They got
Speaker 1: rejected time and time again for the entire day, until
Speaker 1: it was right at the end of the day and
Speaker 1: they were walking back towards the car. And as they
Speaker 1: were walking back towards the car to drive home, they
Speaker 1: saw one last hotel and you cannot make this stuff up.
Speaker 1: The hotel was called Great Expectations, and they walked into
Speaker 1: Gray Expectations. They made friends with the guy behind the
Speaker 1: bar and the manager. They pitched their vision, said what
Speaker 1: they wanted to do, and he actually said, well, we
Speaker 1: got this spare room at the front we don't really
Speaker 1: know what to do with. You can have it, borrow it,
Speaker 1: set it up. That will bring people into the hotel
Speaker 1: to buy drinks and to buy food. You definitely need
Speaker 1: to drink after the escape room. They can after beer.
Speaker 1: And they borrowed that space. I think they spent about
Speaker 1: a thousand pounds setting up the space, So they did
Speaker 1: spend a little bit of money, but compared to what
Speaker 1: it would traditionally cost to set up an escape room,
Speaker 1: it was nothing. And they built the escape room. They
Speaker 1: pre sold the tickets on the website, so they had
Speaker 1: people booked in for when they were opening, and in
Speaker 1: that first six week run they made enough money to
Speaker 1: put the deposit down on their permanent space. That yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's outside of the box thinking right there, that
Speaker 1: most people are like, I just gotta find this fancy
Speaker 1: space and I gotta sign a twelve month lease or
Speaker 1: something like that in order to get the ball rolling.
Speaker 1: And and this couple was like, now we're going to
Speaker 1: take a completely different approach and and find somebody that
Speaker 1: has extra space. That's brilliant, man, I love that, especially
Speaker 1: given retail at the moment. Sure, you go into the
Speaker 1: shopping mall and there's empty spaces everywhere the shops everywhere,
Speaker 1: there's under utilized spaces. I mean, get out into your
Speaker 1: town and have a look around. It's unbelievable what is
Speaker 1: free and empty. And let's see if we can borrow
Speaker 1: it rather than pay for it. Yeah. And if you
Speaker 1: can add value to someone else's business by starting your
Speaker 1: own business, by bringing foot traffic in their door, that's clutch.
Speaker 1: That's a win win for everybody, right, absolutely, So, Alan,
Speaker 1: what if a business owner or a wanna be business
Speaker 1: owner has money in the bank, are you just railing
Speaker 1: against or are you just against people taking on debt
Speaker 1: in order to start a business, or do you think
Speaker 1: individuals should be incredibly cautious even with their own funds
Speaker 1: that they're sinking into the initial startup and launch phase
Speaker 1: of a business that they that they want to open.
Speaker 1: I think that using money is quite often a way
Speaker 1: around you're trying to skip the steps you need to
Speaker 1: go through to make it a successful business. You throw
Speaker 1: some money into try and get further quicker, and that
Speaker 1: has risk to it. And actually what we found is
Speaker 1: if you take the steps you have to go through
Speaker 1: to get there, you get the learnings you need to
Speaker 1: make it a successful business on the way. So if
Speaker 1: you run a six week pop up for your escape room,
Speaker 1: you will learn a huge amount of that, so that
Speaker 1: when you do have the permanent space that you've paid for,
Speaker 1: you've already got the learning and you know what works
Speaker 1: and you know what doesn't, and it makes it inherently
Speaker 1: less risky. So I would say, even if you've got
Speaker 1: cash in the bank, don't skip the steps you need
Speaker 1: to because it will give you incredible learning. And the
Speaker 1: other thing is if you say, well, okay, how do
Speaker 1: I launch this with as little money as possible? You
Speaker 1: have to get creative. And it's when you get creative
Speaker 1: you start to come up with ideas that are out
Speaker 1: of the box that will really make a difference to
Speaker 1: your business. If you just throw your money out of it,
Speaker 1: at it and do exactly the same thing everyone else does.
Speaker 1: You're not going to stand out. You know what I
Speaker 1: keep hearing you say, Allen, is that, like it seems
Speaker 1: that when you get financing lined up right, when you
Speaker 1: have a bunch of money set aside for the business,
Speaker 1: that you spend it. Like you said a little bit ago,
Speaker 1: that you just you spend it all up front on
Speaker 1: things that you don't need, on things that you've heard
Speaker 1: might be a good idea to spend money on, but
Speaker 1: it's not necessary in order to achieve what it is
Speaker 1: that you're looking to achieve. In the same way, and
Speaker 1: I think you've mentioned this before, but like that's how
Speaker 1: we treat our personal finances as well. You know, when
Speaker 1: it's your own money, when it feels like it's yours
Speaker 1: and you have a spot for that money to go, like,
Speaker 1: you're not just spending that money because you have it.
Speaker 1: You're you're still trying to be creative, be resourceful, making
Speaker 1: sure that you're getting the best deal you're You're not
Speaker 1: just spending money because it's just sitting there right. Well. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and I think it's exactly the same thing with personal
Speaker 1: finance as it is with business, you try and reduce
Speaker 1: your expenditure, you try and maximize the amount of coming in,
Speaker 1: and then with the difference in between, you invest it
Speaker 1: for the future to create a return. And I don't
Speaker 1: care whether it's a business or personal finance, same rules apply.
Speaker 1: And if you do that, you can have an incredibly
Speaker 1: successful personal finance or an incredibly successful business either one.
Speaker 1: And I run both my personal finances or Katie and
Speaker 1: I sorry, because we do it together. That's my wife.
Speaker 1: We run both our personal finances and our businesses in
Speaker 1: exactly the same way. I love it. Man. All Right,
Speaker 1: We've got a few more questions for you, Alan, including
Speaker 1: we want to know about how you are for your
Speaker 1: services for free, like what's your business model. We'll get
Speaker 1: to those questions right after the break. All right, Joel,
Speaker 1: we are back from the break and we're we're talking
Speaker 1: about starting a business with no debt, and we're speaking
Speaker 1: with Alan on again. And let's kind of like dive
Speaker 1: into the mind a little bit. Let's talk about mindsets.
Speaker 1: What do you feel are the biggest like mindset shifts
Speaker 1: that potential entrepreneurs need to foster and develop within themselves
Speaker 1: in order to be successful, Right, in order for their
Speaker 1: businesses to succeed. You know, like, is it just like
Speaker 1: clocking in at a factory from nine to five or
Speaker 1: is it a little bit different. Everything changes when you
Speaker 1: run your own business. And I think the most exciting
Speaker 1: thing about starting your own business is you are your
Speaker 1: own boss. You get to decide what you do every day.
Speaker 1: But that's also the scariest thing because there's no one
Speaker 1: telling you what to do. You've got to make that
Speaker 1: stuff up. And I think that's a real big shift
Speaker 1: because every day you wake up and there was a
Speaker 1: blank canvas in front of you, and you have to
Speaker 1: make it up. You've got to make up the marketing message,
Speaker 1: You've got to make up what sales are going to do.
Speaker 1: You've got to make up You've got to create it
Speaker 1: all out of nothing. And I think that's the hardest
Speaker 1: shift that I went through, that my business partner went through,
Speaker 1: that everyone I know goes through when they leave doing
Speaker 1: a traditional job or a traditional business and start their
Speaker 1: own thing. They just sit there on their own wondering
Speaker 1: what do I do? And if I could say one
Speaker 1: thing to your audience is the cheesiest expression ever, but
Speaker 1: it sticks with me if it's to be it's up
Speaker 1: to me, and that I have rammed into my brain
Speaker 1: as hard as possible, because no one else is going
Speaker 1: to make things happen. You have to make them happen.
Speaker 1: And I'm always amazed that turning up at meetings on time,
Speaker 1: making phone calls, making things happen every day, that's actually
Speaker 1: not a common thing. People just don't seem to make
Speaker 1: things happen. And there are that learning that you've got
Speaker 1: to do it every day. You've got to set the appointments,
Speaker 1: You've got to drive for it to happen. You have
Speaker 1: to ask the question. You have to say, when are
Speaker 1: we going to do this podcast, When are we going
Speaker 1: to record it, When are we going to sell it?
Speaker 1: What are we going to do? And that drive, the
Speaker 1: drive has to come from within you. And if you're
Speaker 1: not someone who's motivated from the inside, then do not
Speaker 1: start a business. Go get a job. So all right,
Speaker 1: let's say I have the angling to start a business,
Speaker 1: but I'm a little nervous about kind of doing that
Speaker 1: and having the blank canvas. Do you have any advice
Speaker 1: for people who are not sure how to structure their
Speaker 1: days if there isn't kind of built in structure for
Speaker 1: them because you know that they're is that structure when
Speaker 1: I go to but it's all up to me to
Speaker 1: create the structure. When it's my business, then it is
Speaker 1: completely up to you. You get to decide which is
Speaker 1: terrifying and exciting and equal measures. I would so when
Speaker 1: you're first starting, my thoughts are structured as a mini
Speaker 1: experiment with some key items that you're going to do.
Speaker 1: So let's take the board game example, Matt and Joel,
Speaker 1: we're all setting this up together, and then I would
Speaker 1: define what are the key steps. Number One, design, prototype,
Speaker 1: and test. Once I've got a tested prototype. Number two,
Speaker 1: I'd get the graphics design done and i'd try and
Speaker 1: find someone to do that with me. Number three put
Speaker 1: it out on a Kickstarter. Number four promote it so
Speaker 1: I would share it with board games enthusiasts. I'd find
Speaker 1: them the groups on Facebook, I'd reach out on Instagram.
Speaker 1: There's so many ways to find those people and bring
Speaker 1: them to your page. And that is mini experiment is
Speaker 1: design it, put it out there, see if anyone buys,
Speaker 1: and I'd give myself, I don't know X amount of
Speaker 1: time for each of those blocks. I would get it
Speaker 1: done and I would see if I could launch it.
Speaker 1: And it's having those clearly defined markers and knowing when
Speaker 1: you're going to get things done by that enable you
Speaker 1: to do it. And if it's a mini experiment, you're
Speaker 1: committing to two or three weeks or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: that allows you to do the experiment and to see
Speaker 1: if you get any results. If you get good results
Speaker 1: and people have bought, then maybe you push in harder
Speaker 1: and keep going. If you get bad results and our
Speaker 1: board game fails and no one buys it, we will
Speaker 1: pretend it didn't happen, and we'll come up with a
Speaker 1: new idea quickly. Uh, and no one will ever know
Speaker 1: the wiser, and we'll have another go. And I think
Speaker 1: I would set myself those experiments to know I'm going
Speaker 1: to do it for ex period of I'm I'm going
Speaker 1: to test it. I'm going to see it, and then
Speaker 1: I'll work out if the mini experiment has worked or
Speaker 1: not whether I want to press on and keep going.
Speaker 1: And I think that way, you've made your blank canvas
Speaker 1: a little bit smaller and it's easier to fill it up.
Speaker 1: I love those actionable mini steps essentially that you can
Speaker 1: take in order to make sure that it actually gets
Speaker 1: done and the timeframe right, which is huge to give
Speaker 1: yourself a deadline essentially like and even if it's just
Speaker 1: artificially imposed by you, which it's going to have to
Speaker 1: be typically well, commit to it online. This is always
Speaker 1: one of the tricks. People will do more for other
Speaker 1: people than they will for themselves. So if you haven't
Speaker 1: announced you will have the prototype done by X date,
Speaker 1: you're more likely to let yourself off the hook than
Speaker 1: if you've committed to other people. So I was no
Speaker 1: accountability unless you've read others on board right exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: So I'd be saying to you Matt and Joel, I
Speaker 1: will have it back by ex eight and if I've
Speaker 1: promised you, I'm likely to do it. If I've promised
Speaker 1: myself and haven't told anyone, I might be nicer to
Speaker 1: myself than I will be to other people. Yes, so
Speaker 1: commit totally well, Alan so Jo hinted at this earlier.
Speaker 1: But your business the pop up business school like it
Speaker 1: teaches you know, folks how to start their own business,
Speaker 1: but you do it for free. You know, you don't
Speaker 1: charge people who attend. So can you tell us about
Speaker 1: like your business model, because that's actually kind of a
Speaker 1: unique business model. When you're offering the product or the
Speaker 1: service free of charge, how are you making that work?
Speaker 1: We're gonna get a little meta here future profits for
Speaker 1: any business it gets created because of pop up Business School. Basically,
Speaker 1: it's like shark tank. That's actually a good idea, and
Speaker 1: we thought about that for a time. But the downside
Speaker 1: to that business model is it makes me pick and
Speaker 1: choose the people who come to pop up Business School
Speaker 1: because I would only back the winners. And that's actually
Speaker 1: the model. Little lot of incubators and different places used,
Speaker 1: and they pick who they think will be most successful.
Speaker 1: And I always wanted the pop up Business School to
Speaker 1: be open to anyone. I don't care where you're from,
Speaker 1: what your background is, who you are. You should have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to build a business doing something you enjoy
Speaker 1: and make money without debt, and I want to help you.
Speaker 1: So like that business model comes with some biases, so
Speaker 1: what we did was completely different. We decided we would
Speaker 1: go and find sponsors for our workshops and then we
Speaker 1: would give them away free to the communities that need
Speaker 1: it the most, and we get counsels like some of
Speaker 1: our sponsors are Westminster City Council from London, we've had
Speaker 1: housing authorities. The one in Houston was run by Houston
Speaker 1: Housing Authority. We've had housing associations in England, we've had
Speaker 1: corporate sponsors. So we've had construction companies. In my Acrossoft
Speaker 1: sponsored a couple and they pay for the workshops and
Speaker 1: then we give them away free to the people who
Speaker 1: need it the most. So in eight years of doing this,
Speaker 1: no one has ever paid to come on our events.
Speaker 1: And I always wanted the best entrepreneurial education available to
Speaker 1: be free for everyone. That's killer, man. I love it,
Speaker 1: and I love the bias to make sure that anybody
Speaker 1: can get the training to start a business, because you're right,
Speaker 1: so much in our society is catered to the people
Speaker 1: with the great idea, with the leg up and and
Speaker 1: so yeah, saying no matter where you're at, you can
Speaker 1: start a business and helping those folks get off the
Speaker 1: ground is awesome and I love that. I love your
Speaker 1: passion for that. So all right, one final question here
Speaker 1: for you, Alan, like, what what about leaving your day
Speaker 1: job in order to go all in on the business
Speaker 1: you've started. How do you know that it's time to
Speaker 1: leave your nine to five in order to actually make
Speaker 1: your your business that you've started the full time thing.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are sure like whether they should
Speaker 1: be quitting their job in order to start a business,
Speaker 1: whether it should be a side hustle. Then if it
Speaker 1: is a side hustle, like how long until it's the
Speaker 1: main thing? Cool? So I think number one is running
Speaker 1: mini experiment on the side. Give yourself to three weeks
Speaker 1: a month, do them in the experiments if anyone buys,
Speaker 1: and do it in your spare time alongside your job.
Speaker 1: And how I would evaluate the mini experiment is on
Speaker 1: three criteria. So criteria one is did you enjoy doing it?
Speaker 1: This is critical you run the mini experiment. Did you
Speaker 1: have fun? Did you enjoy it? If no, don't continue
Speaker 1: it because you know it's not going to work for you.
Speaker 1: Number two, did your customers enjoy it? Did you get
Speaker 1: good feedback? Did you sell anything? Did you did you
Speaker 1: bring in some money? Did people tell you it was awesome?
Speaker 1: Because that will tell you whether you can get more
Speaker 1: customers in the future. And number three is did you
Speaker 1: make any money? I mean maybe for the mini experiment
Speaker 1: you just want to break even, but is there an
Speaker 1: opportunity here? Did you make some cash? Do you think
Speaker 1: you'll make cash in the future doing it. And I
Speaker 1: think if you've got those three things in line and
Speaker 1: you're probably your first mini experiment or two will fail.
Speaker 1: I know my first few businesses absolutely failed, and that's okay,
Speaker 1: especially if you're doing it without debt. Well, then you
Speaker 1: just go, well, never mind, it didn't work, I'll try again.
Speaker 1: I guess that's that's a good point. It makes it
Speaker 1: so much easier also to have been in the business
Speaker 1: that isn't working, Whereas if you can cycle out of
Speaker 1: cash in, you might be going after that business and
Speaker 1: chasing it and chasing results for way to long. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which brings us to sunk cost fallacy, which is where
Speaker 1: you put fifty grand in in the year of your
Speaker 1: life and it's not working, but you can't give up
Speaker 1: because you've sunk so much into it. Whereas if you've
Speaker 1: done a mini experiment three weeks and all you've got
Speaker 1: on the line is a bit of time and energy,
Speaker 1: then you're easier to let go and get to the
Speaker 1: next idea. And in nine of occasions, your first idea
Speaker 1: is not your best idea, and you need to go
Speaker 1: through a few ideas to get to one that will
Speaker 1: actually work. Yeah, I mean, this is such a great
Speaker 1: way to approach entrepreneurship and starting your own business, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, like it's just it's safer, but it's just
Speaker 1: smarter as well. Right, Like, so not only are you
Speaker 1: sidestepping the risks associated with taking on loads of debt,
Speaker 1: but just the way you're talking about it, it makes
Speaker 1: it sound so attainable. And I think that's kind of
Speaker 1: change in mindset. Is is one of the biggest things
Speaker 1: that needs to happen, Like Joel, you said, like a
Speaker 1: sea change needs to happen. I think folks need to
Speaker 1: see entrepreneurship not as this giant, audacious thing to to
Speaker 1: kind of tackle, like this this giant monster, but it's
Speaker 1: just this little pest, you know, like and and it's
Speaker 1: this little problem that like, Okay, if I kind of
Speaker 1: apply some energy towards it, this is something that I
Speaker 1: can fix or this is a problem that can be
Speaker 1: solved and and hopefully this can make you know, individuals
Speaker 1: lives better. I think by kind of reducing in their
Speaker 1: mind how big of a problem it is to start
Speaker 1: your own business, I think we could see a lot
Speaker 1: more small businesses take off. And you know, and we
Speaker 1: certainly appreciate your approach right and how you view entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1: Where can listeners where can they find more information about
Speaker 1: you as well as more information about starting their own
Speaker 1: small business. Of course, thank you Matt and Joel um So.
Speaker 1: If they want to find out more about the pop
Speaker 1: Up Business School, just google pop Up Business School. We're
Speaker 1: the only thing that shows up. And there are free
Speaker 1: online events. Because of the current situation, we've had to
Speaker 1: move online that will be coming up around the world
Speaker 1: in different places and they can tune into one of those.
Speaker 1: I've launched a podcast called Rebel Entrepreneur, which is all
Speaker 1: about building businesses with no money, So they can google
Speaker 1: me and that, and we would love to help them
Speaker 1: start up and make their own money doing something they love. Well, Alan,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for all you're doing to help other
Speaker 1: people start their own business and you realize a dream
Speaker 1: and often cases that's what's happening when people are starting
Speaker 1: in business, solving a problem, realizing their own dreams. It's
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing, man, and we really appreciate your time
Speaker 1: in this conversation. This has been a huge amount of
Speaker 1: fun and I'm serious. Next time I come to the States,
Speaker 1: you can guys can crack out a craft bear. I'll
Speaker 1: get some Lego and let's design a ball game out
Speaker 1: of Lego and let's try and sell it on Kickstarter.
Speaker 1: I am completely serious. I would love to do that.
Speaker 1: We could do a mini experiment. I love it. Let's
Speaker 1: try it. Man, totally up for it. Yeah, that sounds great. Awesome,
Speaker 1: Thanks again, Alan, Joel May. What a fantastic conversation we
Speaker 1: just had with Alan down again of the Pop Up
Speaker 1: Business School as well as the Rebel Entrepreneur podcast. Um,
Speaker 1: you just had a lot of great insights there and
Speaker 1: and basically like like demystifying small business. I felt like
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what we spend our time doing today.
Speaker 1: But for you, man, what was your big takeaway for
Speaker 1: our listeners? Man and stuff? To come up with just one?
Speaker 1: Because I felt like one major thing is it's easier
Speaker 1: than you think it is. And most people they build
Speaker 1: it up in their minds and it becomes this big thing.
Speaker 1: And I think starting business isn't really all that hard.
Speaker 1: But I think to the biggest takeaway from me was
Speaker 1: think about what resources you do have at your disposal.
Speaker 1: And Alan's example of the guy with only the closer
Speaker 1: he's wearing and a backpack on his back and a
Speaker 1: busted iPad. Being able to start a business, being able
Speaker 1: to figure out some way to make money, and that
Speaker 1: is something that people need, right. People pay for companies
Speaker 1: to come pick up their trash, to declutter their homes,
Speaker 1: and that's one of those things that you really don't
Speaker 1: need much money, if any money, to start that business.
Speaker 1: I just love the idea of everybody out there who
Speaker 1: wants to start a business sitting down for a second
Speaker 1: listing out their resources. It's easy to think about things
Speaker 1: in the negative context. What do I lack? What don't
Speaker 1: I have? I can come up with a long list
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, But what do you have? They can help
Speaker 1: you accelerate those business plans and actually get something off
Speaker 1: the ground quickly. You've got something, I guarantee it. And
Speaker 1: I think his example really hit home that everybody's got
Speaker 1: something that they should be considering in order to start
Speaker 1: that business. Yeah, you're kind of a glass half full
Speaker 1: of beer kind of guy, got a glass half the Yeah,
Speaker 1: So think about what resources you do have. And I
Speaker 1: think when you sit down and write that list, you'll realize,
Speaker 1: oh wait, I can't start something. And it's easier than
Speaker 1: I otherwise thought it would be nice man, I dig that.
Speaker 1: My big takeaway was when he was talking about sales.
Speaker 1: You know, he was like, we we both shared our
Speaker 1: immediate knee jerk reaction towards the words salesman, uh, salesperson.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that he mentioned that that
Speaker 1: really stood out to me was that sales is truly
Speaker 1: about making the world a better place. You're solving problems
Speaker 1: and starting with that is just the smartest way of
Speaker 1: going about starting a business, right, Uh, starting with the
Speaker 1: customer in mind essentially. Like by doing that, you are
Speaker 1: doing market research essentially, and you're determining the demand for
Speaker 1: your product, whether it's a service or an actual tangible
Speaker 1: product like a board game. When you can start from
Speaker 1: the standpoint of knowing that I'm either a solving a
Speaker 1: problem or be uh filling a gap in the market,
Speaker 1: you know, where there is a demand for something, it's
Speaker 1: almost a sure fire away to ensure your success because
Speaker 1: people are looking for a solution. You just need to
Speaker 1: stepped up and provide it. Yeah, I agree, sales isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily about being pushy, but it's about delivering something to
Speaker 1: someone that's gonna help them and then they they'll gladly
Speaker 1: pay you money for right exactly. So all right, now,
Speaker 1: let's get back to the beer that we had on
Speaker 1: the show today. We drank a beer by Little Cottage.
Speaker 1: It's called Cookies and Cream and it's a nice stout
Speaker 1: brewed by our friend John, who has a little microbrewery.
Speaker 1: So I'm out where your thoughts on this beer, man,
Speaker 1: and I would describe this beer as very luxurious. It
Speaker 1: was dark and sweet. Obviously, it was a stout, so
Speaker 1: I had some sugars going on there, but as well
Speaker 1: as those dark, robust flavors um and it was called
Speaker 1: Cookies and Cream, and so it definitely had kind of
Speaker 1: like a vanilla creaminess going on that you would expect
Speaker 1: from a stout like this. It was really good, almost
Speaker 1: sort of like a like a dessert beer that like
Speaker 1: sticks to your bones a little bit. You know, the
Speaker 1: pastry stouts. They're so hot right now, and this would
Speaker 1: probably fit into that category a little bit. I I'm
Speaker 1: partial to some cookies and cream ice cream from time
Speaker 1: to time, So cookies and cream in my beer, yes, please?
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I really like this one. In big props
Speaker 1: to our friend John for making such a delicious beer,
Speaker 1: not too sweet. Sometimes those pastry stouts can be a
Speaker 1: little sugary sweet too coining. For me, this was dark
Speaker 1: and thick um, but also with some of those notes
Speaker 1: of cream and cookies and so yeah, I really dug it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it had a nice balance, so Joe, that's gonna be
Speaker 1: it for this episode. Our listeners can find our show
Speaker 1: notes up on our website at how to Money dot com,
Speaker 1: and we'll make sure to link to some of Alan's
Speaker 1: resources as well. Yeah, and if you've been listening to
Speaker 1: How the Money for a little while and you've enjoyed it,
Speaker 1: you've gotten value from it, you've learned things, you've saved money, well,
Speaker 1: we would appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps
Speaker 1: us get the message out there to more and more people,
Speaker 1: and that's what we want to do. We want to
Speaker 1: help people, give them the resources to start a business,
Speaker 1: or to cut back in their personal finances and save
Speaker 1: more of what they're making or make more right, all
Speaker 1: those kind of things. So that's what we're about here
Speaker 1: on this show. All right, Matt, that's gonna do it
Speaker 1: for this episode. Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best
Speaker 1: Friends Out,