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Speaker 1: My name is Clay Neukleman. This is a production of

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Speaker 1: the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render where

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Speaker 1: we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear,

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Speaker 1: American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed

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Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the place as we explore.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that one of our friends just got

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Speaker 1: struck by lightning?

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Speaker 2: Crazy, so it's been on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I'm not open to violate hippo rules of

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Speaker 1: like giving out medical advice here, so I won't tell

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Speaker 1: you who got struck by lightning, Josh. But uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of one of our friends just got struck by

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Speaker 1: light and it's like thunder and raining. I was checking

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Speaker 1: all the drainage on my property today tests like lots

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Speaker 1: of stress points. If it rained a little bit more,

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Speaker 1: I probably would have got a little water in my

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Speaker 1: house better. That's what you have to do when you're

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Speaker 1: an adult and you have like a normal haircut, is

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Speaker 1: you as you when it rains. I learned this from

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Speaker 1: a guy that was like a better dad, father, landowner,

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Speaker 1: patriarch than me. We were the same age, but one

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Speaker 1: time we were here at my house and it was raining,

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Speaker 1: and he said, he was like, where's your shovel at?

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Speaker 1: And I was like shovel and he was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this this is when you need to get out in

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Speaker 1: your yard and start digging trenches and see how the

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Speaker 1: water flows. And I was like, man, this is some

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Speaker 1: next level stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: And uh it was my friend Josh Barger. I will

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Speaker 1: call his name. He had never been struck by lightning.

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Speaker 2: We're never been struck by lightning. And I guarantee he's

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Speaker 2: got no drainage issues at his house.

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Speaker 1: Nothing, wow, nothing. But so that's what you did. So

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Speaker 1: that's what I did this morning. I put on all

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Speaker 1: my my rain gear and I went outside and was

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Speaker 1: standing in the water watching it, and I man, I

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Speaker 1: got big ideas for you and me this year. Bear

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Speaker 1: on drainage out here. Welcome to the bear Grease Render.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about today. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: some of these Turkey stories, but mainly we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk to Buck Foster, who's here with us, Doctor Ruk Foster,

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Speaker 1: doctor Buck doctor, doctor Buckley T. Foster.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's me and uh and I'm a kind of

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Speaker 3: doctor that don't do folks no good.

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Speaker 1: As my grandmother would say, don't do folks no good.

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Speaker 1: That's correct, Okay, that's what she said.

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Speaker 3: But because her her her grandfather was an m D

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Speaker 3: and her on the other side of the family, we

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Speaker 3: had a great grandfather that was an MD and she

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Speaker 3: I was the last. I was the youngest of the grandchildren.

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Speaker 3: And she said, I want you to become a doctor.

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Speaker 3: And I finally became a puh and came in and

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Speaker 3: I said, look, I'm finally a doctor, and she that's

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Speaker 3: what she came back with. You're the kind of doctor

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Speaker 3: that don't do folks no good.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think doctors like you do people a lot

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Speaker 1: of good. And that's why you're here. But like, if

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Speaker 1: we're looking for medical advice for our buddy that just

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Speaker 1: got struck by lightning, maybe we would go elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: That'd probably be a good idea.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so we're going to we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about a book that you wrote called So Great

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Speaker 1: was the Slaughter, and it's about market hunting specifically in Arkansas.

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Speaker 1: But I think we can extrapolate it out. I mean, really,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the trends that probably happened here were

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Speaker 1: happening in a lot of parts of the country.

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Speaker 3: That's correct. Actually, we're one of the kind of the

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Speaker 3: late to the party because we remain wild much longer

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Speaker 3: than our neighboring states. So they thin out their wildlife

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Speaker 3: and then they come looking for hours.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that sounds exciting. I can't wait to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Turkey season is in full swing.

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Speaker 1: Full swing, full swinging beard.

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Speaker 2: Oh look at that shoot.

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Speaker 1: I was just in Mississippi this week. So I killed

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Speaker 1: a turkey two days ago in Mississippi with Lake pickleady.

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Speaker 2: Like taking a test. It was delicious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we ate some of it yesterday some of this morning.

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Speaker 1: Made a olmlet.

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Speaker 4: Put a little hot sauce on there, that Alaskan hot sauce.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I thought it was gonna be about like tabasco or something,

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Speaker 4: and so I like drenched it and it like overtook

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Speaker 4: you up. What I did is I is I took

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Speaker 4: the I took the drumsticks and the thighs off a

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Speaker 4: wild turkey, which a lot of people used to throw away.

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Speaker 4: I mean for real, twenty years ago people breasted turkeys

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Speaker 4: and they were like that dark meat's no good man,

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Speaker 4: that that is done. Like people don't do that anymore.

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Speaker 4: We keep the thighs in the drumsticks. And all I

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Speaker 4: did yesterday morning was, uh, put them in a crock pot,

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Speaker 4: diced up and un onion, and put barbecue sauce on

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Speaker 4: them and turned it on low in about seven hours later.

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Speaker 1: You know, you could just pull that meat off with a.

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Speaker 3: Fork, sure, right out?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you pulled a little man. A wild turkey has

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Speaker 1: some serious tendons, like seven or eight big you know,

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Speaker 1: cartilaginous tendons that that hard tendons that that go down

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Speaker 1: to the feet and pull those out and then I

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Speaker 1: just chopped it up and it was good. It was

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Speaker 1: super good. But uh, so we did we did this

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Speaker 1: Turkey Stories episode. Were you able to listen to it? Bear, yep?

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Speaker 1: Yeah you were on there, yep. I forgot about that.

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Speaker 2: Featured guests.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Second, what did it feel like?

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Speaker 4: The Bushwhacker about the same as the first one? The

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Speaker 4: first What do you mean the first time I was

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Speaker 4: on the Burgeries podcast? Okay, felt felt like that.

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Speaker 3: What was Uh?

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Speaker 1: Were you able to listen to it?

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Speaker 3: Bushwhacker?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, you know this this episode owed the turkey

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Speaker 1: hunting purist, which I mean, I want to be in

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Speaker 1: that group of people. There's all there's always a spectrum

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Speaker 1: of people that hunt, you know, and and there's the

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Speaker 1: guys that just kind of dabble in something, and and

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Speaker 1: then there's the guys that really take it serious and

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Speaker 1: oftentimes might care a little bit of a hint of

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Speaker 1: of uh elitism on their shoulder in the way that

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Speaker 1: things are done. I could be that guy. I'm in

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Speaker 1: that camp. I want I want things to be done.

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Speaker 1: This one had a little bit of kind of redneckery

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Speaker 1: in the in this like like wing shooting turkeys. Uh,

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Speaker 1: trent allis shooting a turkey at sixty yards like you know,

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Speaker 1: you get in trouble for that these days.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: And I get it. I get it. And then Johnny

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Speaker 1: Johnston teaching us how to shoot a fly in turkey.

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Speaker 1: Johnny Johnston he told me multiple stories, and two of

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Speaker 1: them involved him intentionally spooking a turkey so it flew

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Speaker 1: so he could shoot it. And I was like, what

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Speaker 1: do you mean you wanted it to fly? And he said,

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Speaker 1: there's thick brush. I couldn't see him. If he runs,

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Speaker 1: he gets away. If you make him fly, these Eastern

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Speaker 1: turkeys fly straight up and you shoot him. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like, if you want to get a turkey, that's

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Speaker 1: what you do. So so there was a little bit

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Speaker 1: of that, so there could be some criticism and then bushwhacken.

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Speaker 1: There are people that are like, you shouldn't shoot a

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Speaker 1: turkey unless you call it up and it's goblin, and

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Speaker 1: that's probably pretty extreme. I mean, but I you know,

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Speaker 1: to me, if you're if you're hunting inside the boundaries

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Speaker 1: of the wall, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, basically you're trying to outwit a turkey. So if

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Speaker 2: you're calling him, you're trying to outwit him, make him

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Speaker 2: think you're a hen. There just went about outwitting in

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Speaker 2: a different way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think it's like you kind of come into the

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Speaker 4: world and there's like a set way to kill a turkey.

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Speaker 1: But like, you know, that's good. It's a pretty small box.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, baron nuke breaking all the rules and and.

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Speaker 1: The thing about what bear situation was is that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not gonna just call those turkeys up like

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Speaker 1: me and Lake did on this piece of private land

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Speaker 1: that we were hunting in Mississippi. You know, that's not

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of pressure. And these birds, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just a it's different worlds. I mean, he's hunting

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Speaker 1: over here in a place with I mean, these birds,

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Speaker 1: they're just getting pressured so much. It's like, if you

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Speaker 1: want to play the game, you try to, you play

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Speaker 1: the game that you're dealt, you know. But it was

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Speaker 1: an exciting if oh, and Andy Brown shooting that Jake,

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Speaker 1: you know, that would that would get some get could

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Speaker 1: get nobody's going to get fired up about that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: anybody that's turned down it for more than twenty years

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Speaker 1: is killed to Jake. And there's nothing you know where

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Speaker 1: it's legal, there's nothing wrong.

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Speaker 3: With that, right.

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Speaker 1: But uh, but it was a great it was a

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Speaker 1: great seria. It was a great great stories.

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Speaker 3: Isn't the mark of a good hunter to overcome adapt

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Speaker 3: the situation. So if you've got high pressure birds that

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Speaker 3: won't come to a call, you figure out what works right,

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Speaker 3: just like you would with any other pursuit. You figure

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Speaker 3: out what's going on. To me, it's not Yes, it'd

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Speaker 3: be great to go out there and sit down and

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Speaker 3: you know, you scout, you you sit, you watch, and

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Speaker 3: then you call them up and you kill it. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 3: that's the way they did it. They've done it all

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Speaker 3: that way. But that doesn't mean you had to do it.

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Speaker 3: If you can't, if that's not the way the situation unfolds,

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Speaker 3: then you go. I mean when I was growing up,

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Speaker 3: stalking was new. Go stalk a deer. Nobody did that.

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Speaker 3: You know. I grew up in South Logan County and

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Speaker 3: basically you hunted with dogs, you know, dog hunting, and

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Speaker 3: if you weren't a dog deer, if anybody got up

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Speaker 3: in a tree, we laughed at them. You know, that's

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Speaker 3: not the way. And then of course have other family

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Speaker 3: men that are with bows and this is the only

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Speaker 3: way to hunt. This is you know, you guys are

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Speaker 3: breaking all the rules. And you know what rules there aren't.

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Speaker 3: There are no rules. There's no right and wrong way

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Speaker 3: to hunt unless it's illegal, right, So I've always I

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Speaker 3: thought that was interesting. So I appreciated Bear's story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did any of the stories stand out to you

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Speaker 1: like you were like that was that was funny? Or

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean all of them had a little bit. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: everybody's after turkey. So the big one that I always

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Speaker 3: because I'm not a turkey hunter, as I said before

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Speaker 3: the podcast, my my father was a fierce turkey hunter,

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Speaker 3: so I was familiar with turkey hunting and the pursuit,

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Speaker 3: and I know about the repopulation efforts here in Arkansas

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Speaker 3: and when all that occurred and things like that. But

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Speaker 3: the thing that I guess hit home with me is

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Speaker 3: the story of getting out there and having stomach issues.

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Speaker 3: Because if you spend any time whatsoever in the woods,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna be there, yeah, sooner or later, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: much sooner than you expect. And it's again being out

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Speaker 3: like in the duck woods. You've got waiters to contend with.

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Speaker 3: You've got ice, and many a lot of times you

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Speaker 3: have ice, not so much this year, but you have

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Speaker 3: ice and snow and all kinds of different things to

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Speaker 3: contend with. And water because you're you know a lot

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Speaker 3: of times you find yourself and waste deep water, you know,

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Speaker 3: not of its not all of us have private land

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Speaker 3: and private blinds and things like that, so we basically

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Speaker 3: just set up wherever we can. So there's a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of pre planning that goes in. As as I

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Speaker 3: have become older, I have known that the best it's

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Speaker 3: best to pre plan, pre plan, Yes, yeah, just make

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Speaker 3: it's gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this episode did have a shocking number of stories

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Speaker 2: of people's pants down.

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Speaker 1: It's you know what's funny is we don't really I

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Speaker 1: wish I could say we planned this. We really didn't

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Speaker 1: plan it that way. But you know, the first two

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Speaker 1: stories had to do with going to the bathroom in

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Speaker 1: the woods, and then Med Palmer had to do you know,

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Speaker 1: he had to take his pants off, skin.

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Speaker 3: And off, and he kept saying it was super cold.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but he never came, he never circled back to

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Speaker 3: it because I thought, oh my lord, he's you know,

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Speaker 3: he was saying it was so cold he couldn't even

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Speaker 3: hardly see the beat on the end of his barrel. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I was like, and you just skinned off and

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Speaker 3: went into water. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's hardcore when it comes to turkey hunting, that

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Speaker 2: guy's hardcore.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I would have to say Med's story just kept compounding

247
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Speaker 1: and difficulty. You know, it was in Med. He has

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Speaker 1: that southern Mississippi accent, and you know, he's just kind

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Speaker 1: of funny. But when he started telling about crossing that

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Speaker 1: river on that inflatable mattress, I envisioned a river, you know,

251
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Speaker 1: a little little river, you know, thirty yards across. He

252
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Speaker 1: said it was like two hundred and fifty yards across.

253
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Speaker 1: It's like a huge river, and I would imagine it

254
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Speaker 1: was kind of like a he said it was shallow

255
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Speaker 1: for a long ways, so you know, he's just like

256
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Speaker 1: wading in the water. But finally in the main channel

257
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Speaker 1: he gets out there and off he goes, and it's

258
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Speaker 1: cold and and uh and then gets over there and

259
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Speaker 1: gets his turkey.

260
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Speaker 4: But he did talk about how the wind blew him

261
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Speaker 4: over to that bank. I was just curious about how

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Speaker 4: he got back. Me too, That's exactly what I thought.

263
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess after you got your turkey, you

264
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Speaker 1: just weren't really that worried about it didn't matter what happened. Josh,

265
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Speaker 1: which story stood out to you?

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Speaker 2: I it's a it's a tough one because they were

267
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Speaker 2: good stories this year. I really I really like Trent's

268
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Speaker 2: story because I just think Trent is funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's funny.

270
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Speaker 2: But having got to meet the Clarks, yes, I mean

271
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Speaker 2: just they're the best kind of people, Like, they're the

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Speaker 2: kind of people you want to know. And they're custom callmakers.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't I had them make me a beautiful custom

274
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Speaker 2: box call. But I think just knowing them them telling

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Speaker 2: their stories about about her being taught by him how

276
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Speaker 2: to hunt. She loves to go out there and kill turkeys. Man,

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Speaker 2: she is a turkey killing machine.

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Speaker 1: She probably undersold herself because as she talks, she's like,

279
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Speaker 1: my husband had just taught me how to turkey hunt. Yep,

280
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Speaker 1: But I mean she she's killed a lot of turkeys.

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Speaker 2: When I was at their house, they showed me a

282
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Speaker 2: string of beards that they'd killed, and I think he

283
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,040
Speaker 2: said the last nine or ten years, and they travel

284
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Speaker 2: all over the country, not just killing these turkeys at home,

285
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Speaker 2: but I bet there were sixty beards on that thing,

286
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 2: and they just they just kill turkeys together, and they

287
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,760
Speaker 2: and the neat thing about him is there there and there.

288
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 2: I think they said there were seventy two. They've been

289
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Speaker 2: married since nineteen seventy one, and they're just the best

290
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Speaker 2: of friends. They just love doing things together. So I

291
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Speaker 2: really enjoyed their stories.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I thought they were really good too. I'd

293
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Speaker 1: have to say, man, they were. They were all good.

294
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Speaker 1: I like Johnny Johnson's story of of uh, of getting

295
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Speaker 1: bit in the nose by turkey. I mean it's just like,

296
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Speaker 1: what were you doing, Johnny? And and you'd have to

297
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Speaker 1: know Johnny to kind of know his sense of humor.

298
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Speaker 1: He'd killed this turkey and he he was playing with it. Yeah,

299
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Speaker 1: I mean, which you know, I don't know, he's celebrating

300
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Speaker 1: this turkey's life and uh, but he's but he's just

301
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Speaker 1: just kind of like pretending like the turkey's talking and

302
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Speaker 1: uh and if you knew Johnny, I don't think that's

303
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 1: that surprising. And then the thing reaches over and bites

304
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Speaker 1: him in the nose so hard that it basically makes

305
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Speaker 1: him bleed.

306
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Speaker 3: You know.

307
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that was that was funny. Yeah, that had

308
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 1: to be my favorite story. Oh was it really? Did

309
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 1: it kind of surprise you? Yeah?

310
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Speaker 4: I mean getting bit on the nose by a turkey

311
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,080
Speaker 4: and was like you almost couldn't, you know, like think

312
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 4: of a way that that could even happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

314
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

315
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Speaker 1: Uh And I love here in the way that people

316
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 1: talk and the phrases they use. And he he used

317
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Speaker 1: that phrase we went to him like a bidon sow. Yeah,

318
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Speaker 1: and uh and when he said it, I just like

319
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 1: checked it off in my mind. I was like, that's good.

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Speaker 1: I mean again, I mean you, I mean, something's coming

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Speaker 1: at you like a bidon sal You're backing up and running,

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Speaker 1: you know, and uh and then I asked him about

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Speaker 1: it at the end. I said, I've never heard that before.

324
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Speaker 1: And he said, that's some serious advance. He said, coming

325
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Speaker 1: at you like a bouton sow is serious advance. And

326
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Speaker 1: I love that.

327
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Speaker 3: I love that.

328
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Speaker 1: But that was a good one. And then hear and

329
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Speaker 1: Andy Brown laugh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the guy in the story there he it was

332
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Speaker 1: the third story, Andy Brown. He told about the turkey

333
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: that gobbled really low, he said, and he he threw

334
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,359
Speaker 1: a pine nod at a fox and then he shoots

335
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 1: the bird. He thanks the big one and it's a

336
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Speaker 1: jake and then he just he just cackled. He just laughed. Man.

337
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:21,000
Speaker 1: Andy is a he's He's been on almost every Turkey

338
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Speaker 1: Stories episode and he just just is a great storyteller.

339
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Speaker 1: And like that was I've said this before. Most really

340
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Speaker 1: good turkey hunters have two or three stories that are

341
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Speaker 1: really good like that that they just want to tell

342
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Speaker 1: you sure that that just something wild happened, and there

343
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: was there was it was funnier. It was a bird

344
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Speaker 1: did something just extraordinary. And that was probably Andy's like

345
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,919
Speaker 1: like uh, s story A B C D E F

346
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Speaker 1: G H, I j k L b q R S.

347
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Speaker 1: He's on S. I mean like he just he just

348
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Speaker 1: he's uh so much and he's just a good and

349
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 1: he can make any story fun to listen to, just

350
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Speaker 1: with details like the fox and how low the turkey

351
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,680
Speaker 1: gobbled and and uh and when he was telling the

352
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 1: story to me in person, he had he had his

353
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Speaker 1: arms out like he was set up this way, and

354
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Speaker 1: he said, and the.

355
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Speaker 3: Turkey appeared over here, and I have no idea how.

356
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: It got there. You know, he's just kind of he's

357
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 1: just a good storytelling.

358
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Speaker 3: Storytellers. Best storytellers have it and you you can visualize

359
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 3: it in your head exactly what's going on. I saw

360
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 3: that fox sneaking in when he was telling the story,

361
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 3: I was like, what are you going to do? Because

362
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,919
Speaker 3: I thought it was going to lead to him shooting

363
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 3: the turkey and the fox running off with the turkey

364
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 3: or something like that. I was waiting, anticipating that was

365
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Speaker 3: what was going to happen. And I still it's always

366
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 3: been amazing. Well just like the bushwhack, I mean, turkey's

367
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 3: with their amazing eyesight.

368
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Speaker 2: You know.

369
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 3: One of the things I remember from my dad telling

370
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 3: me the story is like you cannot move, and he

371
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 3: would come home with these whelps across his face where

372
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 3: the gnats buffalo knats would bite him and he wouldn't

373
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 3: you know, he wouldn't move, he wouldn't swat, and he

374
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 3: didn't have a screen, He didn't have a anything to

375
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,879
Speaker 3: mask or anything like. Yeah, like, no, he just went

376
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 3: out there because he smoked all the time. Anything. He

377
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,120
Speaker 3: was like, the smoke is going to keep him away

378
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 3: from me, but it didn't.

379
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: Hey, show me your dad's turkey calls, so you brought

380
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 1: So your dad was a turkey hunter.

381
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 3: My dad was a turkey hunter and evidently known quite widely.

382
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,479
Speaker 3: This is when I was really young. This is an

383
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 3: early box call of his and it says on the

384
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 3: bottom J. L. Foster's name is James Foster, April nineteen

385
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 3: sixty five. So this was a maid. He didn't make it.

386
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 3: A fellow made it for him.

387
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, look at that. I already checked that out. If

388
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 1: you make it sound.

389
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 3: He always carried a piece of chalk on the inside

390
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,719
Speaker 3: of it and it rattled around. That's all I can remember.

391
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 3: And of course you can see his That was a

392
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 3: rubber band once and it's all rotted off of there now.

393
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: I've never seen one quite like that.

394
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,120
Speaker 3: Now, this is his slate. Call. Of course, it's homemade.

395
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 3: And he didn't make this pouch. I don't know who

396
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,439
Speaker 3: made the pouch for him. I'm sure it's literally, but

397
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 3: it's literally literally a piece of slate, a slab of slate,

398
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 3: that's right. And then his striker is a cone with

399
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 3: a screw to the end of it. Wow, check that out.

400
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 2: That's so cool.

401
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: So it's it's like a it's hard to describe it.

402
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 1: It's a piece of wood that's been drilled out almost

403
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 1: like a funnel, right like about two and a half

404
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: three inches in diameter, has a screw and then there's

405
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: literally a flat quarter inch thick piece of slave, but

406
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 1: as big as the palm of your hand.

407
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 3: And it's got a thumb thumb spot for you right there.

408
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: And uh, let me see if you ever can Yeah,

409
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 1: go ahead, can you make it make sound?

410
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 3: It'll make the best thing. I think it can make

411
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 3: us a purr or a chirp or whatever you call it. Now,

412
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 3: put that thing here. I'm like I said, I'm not

413
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 3: a turkey hunner. So here's the thing. Put it like this,

414
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 3: and by making the cone in your hand bigger, it'll

415
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 3: be different, it'll change tone. That's the only thing I

416
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 3: do know. Probably gotta find it, you do, because this

417
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 3: is this screw is you know, it's old, basically worn

418
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 3: out on each side.

419
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: But I mean, I can see how you can make

420
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: sounds with that, especially if you got good at it.

421
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 3: There you go. That's the one I can That's the

422
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 3: only thing I can do. But he also agrees that

423
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 3: so that well, I was going to say.

424
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: What I was going to say was a lot of

425
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 1: times like if this was a slate call that I had,

426
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: I would I would, I would send it.

427
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 3: Sometimes he spit on it.

428
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, this this brings up an interesting point for turkey hunters.

429
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: The phrase now that people use to describe a circular

430
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: call with a striker is they call him pot calls.

431
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: I never I never even heard it called a pot

432
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: call until I started working at meat Eater, and I

433
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: don't know it somehow entered my vocabulary at that time.

434
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: I would have called every single friction call a slate call,

435
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: even if it had a glass because they use a

436
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 1: lot of different types. There's some that are actually slate,

437
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: some that are glass, some that are aluminum, and some

438
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: that are you know, like some kind of acrylic or something.

439
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: And uh, but anyway, I want to call every single

440
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: friction call that'll have a slate call call. But this

441
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: is where it came from. That's really cool, man. I've

442
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: never seen that. Yeah, yep, put it back in the rest.

443
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: How cool is that?

444
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

445
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: Man, it just shows the ingenuity of people. Have you

446
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 2: ever seen anything like that? No?

447
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 1: I never have. I've actually never seen one like that.

448
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: Do you know if if he got that idea from

449
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: someone or did he do that on his.

450
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: Own, it was what you know, existed way before me. Wow,

451
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 3: this is I would bet that this is probably sixty

452
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 3: or seventy years old.

453
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

454
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 3: And of course that one was in nineteen sixty five.

455
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 3: So and in nineteen sixty five there were hardly any turkeys.

456
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, so he was going, you know.

457
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: Well, the progression of turkey hunting in America. You know

458
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: they they market hunting turkeys and we're shooting them with

459
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: shotguns or I mean rifles, and and it there were

460
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: very few people that were calling spring turkeys like in

461
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. By like as I understand it, you

462
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: may know this more than me, but like by the

463
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: I think lynch box call company came around in the

464
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties nineteen forties, which was which was a commercial

465
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: box call that you goodbye, and so clearly people know

466
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 1: that you can call these birds, but people were hunting

467
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: them in the fall, not as much as they hunted

468
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: them in the spring, because in the fall you can

469
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: bust up fall flocks and call them back in with

470
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: the Kiki run and lost him call and different things,

471
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: and a lot of people were fall hunting them. And

472
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: then basically in nineteen seventy, Ben rogers Lee started a

473
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: call company that I'm not going to say it was

474
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: the first call company because it wasn't, but he was

475
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: kind of considered one of the first modern, kind of

476
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: modern style spring turkey hunters. And then Will Primo started

477
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: night eighteen seventy six, and after that it was just

478
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: a flurry, and there were a bunch of smaller guys

479
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 1: that never made big national status that these guys were

480
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: learning from. So it's not like it all started in

481
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, but that's when mainstream spring turkey hunting started,

482
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: it really, you know, and it also coincided with when

483
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: we started having turkeys, you know, It's like turkey started

484
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: to come up, and then so people started to learning

485
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: how to hunt. They made diaphragm calls and and people

486
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: started learning. But before that, people were calling on stuff

487
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: like literally a slab of slate.

488
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 3: A lot of people. I don't have one. My dad

489
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 3: didn't use one, but I have a couple of friends,

490
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: and they were talking about they had turkey feather calls

491
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 3: where they hollow them ount and make them into.

492
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: Oh like a like a wing bone.

493
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 3: Wing bone. Yeah, wing bone calls, he said. One of

494
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 3: my friends said his dad had a couple of them. Oh.

495
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: I had a guy send me this week from Georgia

496
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: a pipe call. Oh my gosh, I need to go

497
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: get it.

498
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: Like a trumpet call.

499
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: It's a it's a trumpet call, but it's actually a

500
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: functional pipe. Oh really, you could sweet, you could smoke

501
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: with it. That's what I'm understood.

502
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: If you were someone else, yeah, if you.

503
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: Were if you were into voodoo.

504
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 2: Yah.

505
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: But uh, it sounds really good and it's a real

506
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 1: work of art. I'm going to get it at the

507
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: end of the end of the show. I want to.

508
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: I want to show the people. But so, when did

509
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: you tell me about like your uh academic academic ascension,

510
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: Like how did how do you become a college professor?

511
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: And like, what's your specialty?

512
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 3: Well, you go to school forever, that's one thing. I

513
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 3: ended up with two degrees from the University of Arkansas,

514
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: bachelor's and master's degree in American history, and then for

515
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: my PhD, I went down to Mississippi State and start. Okay,

516
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 3: and my mentor there is John Marslac, who is actually

517
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: a biographer of William T. Sherman Civil War. Anyway, I

518
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: am from Arkansas, born and raised in Arkansas. Always wanted

519
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 3: to come back to Arkansas, and so I found an

520
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 3: opportunity to do that and ended up at the University

521
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: of Central Arkansas seventeen years ago. I worked on the

522
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 3: Mississippi Gulf coast for five years, just in time for Katrina. Yeah,

523
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 3: it was good times. But got back here and I

524
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: was my specially he's nineteenth century South and again pretty

525
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 3: much I mean we're in Arkansas grade school required to

526
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 3: take Arkansas history. Yeah, did it in seventh grade? Did

527
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 3: it in twelfth grade? Had a mentor at University of

528
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 3: Arkansas who was the Arkansas historian there. Took classes there

529
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: and that was Genie.

530
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: That was Dogannie lay.

531
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 3: Wane that's correct, and doctor Daniel Sutherland both. So basically

532
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: I was directed to that. So nineteenth century South and

533
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 3: Arkansas kind of came together. I hunt and grew up

534
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 3: on a hunting family, and so when I had the opportunity,

535
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 3: I decided to do more research. So a lot of

536
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: people ask, Okay, why this particular subject or what turned

537
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 3: you on this? Exactly? I about a decade ago, I guess, yeah,

538
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 3: it was about ten or twelve years ago. I read

539
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 3: an article about a war. And it was not a

540
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: war between soldiers on some distance distant battlefield, but it

541
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: was a war between Americans. It was a war between

542
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: market hunters and sportsmen. And the war happened on a

543
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 3: ten thousand acre lake in northeast Arkansas called Big Lake,

544
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 3: which was created during the New Matter of earthquake in

545
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 3: eighteen twelve. So I begin to dig more into that, and.

546
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: This is not a metaphorical war, literally.

547
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 3: No, it was a war.

548
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: For me.

549
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: They shoot at each other, Well, it's more of the

550
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 3: market hunter shooting at the sportsman, or actually the people

551
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: who work for the sportsman, because we have a fellow

552
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: named Joseph Acklan who actually happens to be the Tennessee

553
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: game warden State Tennessee game Warden. Also a millionaire, very wealthy,

554
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:37,479
Speaker 3: also an attorney who is a crack shot, wins all

555
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: kinds of shotgun competitions. That was a big thing back then,

556
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 3: doing shooting competitions. And he would shoot one hundred glass

557
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: balls thrown into the air, you know, that sort of thing.

558
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: And a bunch of his friends. As again I mentioned before,

559
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: as our neighboring states begin to run out of things

560
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: to shoot wild life, they begin to look for places

561
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 3: to go, and Arkansas was one of those places. And

562
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: so Joseph Acklin and his friends, investors and whatnot approach

563
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 3: a timber company who owned which timber companies owned quite

564
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: a lot, because we're talking about the same time when

565
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 3: timber's big, mining's big, you know. Basically, Arkansas's first industries

566
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: are those that can take her natural resources. So it's

567
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: my coal, mining and timber and that sort of thing.

568
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: Those were the resources. And what happens is wild life

569
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: becomes a resource. It's a resource that is also pursued

570
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: by the market hunters. So Joseph Acklin and his buddies

571
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 3: they formed a big Lake shooting club and they buy

572
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: a ten feet strip around the lake ten thousand acres,

573
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: and they claim the lake under riparian rights, which is

574
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: basically rights that nobody can be on it because they

575
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: call it non navigable. So they basically say, now this

576
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: ten thousand acre lake is ours and the great and

577
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: they build clubhouses, which market hunters end up burning to

578
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 3: the ground twice really, And they hire a bunch of people,

579
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 3: and there's caretakers, and there's pushers, the people that go

580
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: out and push the boats, and they have live decoys.

581
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: I mean, basically everything you would think of anywhere, but

582
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: they do it. All these people are from Nashville or

583
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 3: the surrounding area in Tennessee, and they own this huge hunting.

584
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: The rich guys that own rich we're from Nashville, that's correct.

585
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: And the locals, of course, a lot of them lived

586
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 3: right there on the lake, a lot of the market hunters.

587
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: And they're market hunting ducks.

588
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: Market hunting any kind of waterfowl whatsoever. Remember is a

589
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: big market also in plumes, plumage. What year was this

590
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: specific when they come. Well, the war lasts over twenty

591
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: years because it's not only like what we think of

592
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 3: where they're burning things and things like that. But there

593
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: they go to court. Okay, there's an injunction put forth

594
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 3: by a judge that says the locals can't be out there,

595
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: and so they get even more angry. The locals get lawyers,

596
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 3: and it just goes on court cases. And when what

597
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: was that time period basically eighteen eighty five ish until

598
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: the very last part What ends the war that we

599
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 3: could get to what ends the war in nineteen fifteen

600
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: is that the Big Lake Shooting Club gives the land

601
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 3: to the federal government, and so that is why it

602
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: is a National Wildlife refuge today. It was a preserve

603
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: at that time, and so that's what they turn it into.

604
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: And so the war against the market hunters moves from

605
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 3: the Tennessee Sportsman and goes to the US Biological Survey.

606
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: They take over. They still well, they have game wardens there.

607
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: I read in your book that this was kind of

608
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,959
Speaker 1: like just an astonishing figure that kind of puts then

609
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: puts a number on the volume of market hunters. But

610
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: our market hunting. But in nineteen eleven, half a million

611
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: ducks were shipped out of Arkansas from three counties. In

612
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: October and November nineteen twelve, and on one October day

613
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven, ninety thousand, six hundred ducks shipped in

614
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: one order. Ninety thousand ducks in a single day.

615
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: That's correct.

616
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: And now where were those ducks going.

617
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: They were going to markets in big cities. Those were

618
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: probably have to look it up those particular ones, but

619
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 3: they're probably going to Chicago because remember this is the

620
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: exact same time when all the cattle drives are happening

621
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: out west. Chicago's becoming the slaughterhouse capital of the nation,

622
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: and so that is primarily where all those go. And

623
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: they may be sent on further by rail, or they

624
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: may be used to feed the Chicago population. But we

625
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: sell market hunters sell game to the big cities around US.

626
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 3: Memphis is the closest, Saint Louis, New Orleans, and Chicago.

627
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: Chicago's who's eating that many ducks? We don't eat that

628
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: many ducks today.

629
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: That's true. One of the big things that you had

630
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: to think about is that even though we have you know,

631
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 3: beef and pork and that sort of thing, that it's available,

632
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 3: especially if you're wealthy, you want to serve your guests

633
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: these exotics.

634
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: Something so wild game was exotic.

635
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 3: It wasn't well point necessarily, but poor folks get it

636
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: too because it's so cheap, so you kind of have

637
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: both together. But see, the the canvas backs were the

638
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: ones that were the most pursued because they ate wild

639
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: celery much of the time, and they took on their meat,

640
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: took on that that wild celery taste, and so they

641
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: cans brought more than mallards, which brought more than teal,

642
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 3: and were that.

643
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: Was based on taste to taste, volume of meat, the

644
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: size of the bird.

645
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: Big time, big Lake one day shipped out ten thousand,

646
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 3: ten thousand.

647
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: And these guys are killing them with punt guns at nights.

648
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 3: No, no, no, That's one of the things that's very

649
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 3: interesting is that punk guns primarily that I at least

650
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 3: I've researched. I've seen one example of a punk gun

651
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: in Arkansas. Really story of a punk gun.

652
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: Yep, how are they killed them? They're basically shot gunning them,

653
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean like calling them in. No, they don't have to,

654
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: they're just coming in.

655
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 3: One of the most I guess you could say the

656
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 3: one that the one way that they did it the most,

657
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: that probably killed the most is killing them on the roost.

658
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 3: They catch them, they go back in the trees and

659
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 3: there would be a big open area in there. There

660
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: might be ten twenty thousand waterfowling there and they go

661
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 3: in there in the night and just blast them.

662
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 1: So they're doing it at night.

663
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 3: Yes, And another thing is you got to remember you're

664
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 3: talking about turkey hunting with spring hunting and things like that.

665
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 3: They were killing them both ways. On the migration. Yeah,

666
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: they kill them. They had a spring the spring shoot,

667
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 3: which which is one of the things that one of

668
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 3: the first things that they attempt as far as lawmakers go,

669
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 3: is to stop spring shooting because that's when they're pairing

670
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: up and you know, trying to go back and have babies. Wow, hatch.

671
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: But yes, the number is incredible. And let me let

672
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 3: me tell you something about that number that can be

673
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: potentially misleading. It's like, you know, not all those ducks

674
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: were killed in that county or those three counties. They

675
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: were just so they were shipped out from there because

676
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 3: there is a bill that has passed. Because when Arkansas

677
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: starts trying to pass game laws, they're doing it piecemeal.

678
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 3: They don't have a general game law per se, and

679
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 3: so they'll do something that covers maybe two counties or

680
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: three counties or half a counties or whatever. And if

681
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 3: the if the representative from that county didn't want that law,

682
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 3: they would get an exempt from their county. Okay. So

683
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: one of the biggest, I guess counties that's most guilty

684
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: of flaunting all game laws and saying we want to

685
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 3: be exempt was the county that Big Lake was in

686
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 3: and so, and I knew you'd say that, and they

687
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 3: just left me.

688
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: It's not Is that in northeast It.

689
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: Is, yes, northeast Arkansas. No, Nope, not correct. I don't

690
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 3: think of in a minute. The man I can remember

691
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 3: them and represented it was named little I do remember that.

692
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 3: Anyway, they exempted themselves. Well that was kind of the

694
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 3: not only and one of the reasons they did that

695
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: is because the market hunters pressured his money. It was

696
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: a bunch of money involved, and so he made sure

697
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: that they were exempt. So if anybody wanted to, if

698
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,479
Speaker 3: any market hunter in any other part of the state

699
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 3: wanted to ship out of the state, they sent it there.

700
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 3: And so they piled them on, put them on trains

701
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 3: and sent.

702
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: Them because there was the laws were different in that county.

703
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 5: In that county, that's right, Okay, if you were if

704
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 5: you were given just like a high level overview of

705
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 5: the animals that were that were market hunted in Arkansas.

706
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: What was the biggest thing, what what was the prime animal?

707
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: Depends on the time, Okay, it depends on the time period,

708
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: because of course we have had market hunters or some

709
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 3: sembilans thereof market hunting since Arkansas, since Europeans came to Arkansas. Uh.

710
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 3: That's why Arkansas Post was established, was to make trade

711
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: with the Native Americans and bring fur to them.

712
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: And then so Arkansas just to Arkansas Post is a

713
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: town at the confluence of the Arkansas White Mississippi River.

714
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: That's correct.

715
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: And it was established in like the mid sixteen hundreds,

716
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: truck six, Yeah, it was at the time it was

717
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: the Furthest.

718
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 3: Yes, this was the very first further.

719
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: It was like the Furthest West European outpost on the

720
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: cop at the time.

721
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 3: Yes. And the man who established it was Enre de Tonty,

722
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: and he basically set up he was given what's called

723
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 3: the seniory, which LaSalle was his boss, and he gave

724
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 3: him this land and two and so he's going to

725
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 3: make his fortune. So he sets up this post.

726
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: And we've got a town named after him, just right

727
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: up here, Tonty Town.

728
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: There you go. So he sets us up and that's

729
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: what they're doing. So you could say the first real

730
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 3: occupation in Arkansas hunting, I mean it truly is the

731
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: Spanish do it. Primarily it's the French that come in

732
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 3: and do it. So it doesn't really matter whether it's

733
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 3: under the French colonial system or the Spanish colonial system.

734
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 3: The French don't leave when the Spanish take over. The

735
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 3: French are the French hunters are still hunting and doing

736
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: all their all their operations around And so to get

737
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: back to your question, thereafter the fur so whatever fur

738
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: bearing animal you want to think of with primarily beaver

739
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 3: though here's a big one for that, because there's such

740
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 3: a demand.

741
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: And that would have been I mean it would have

742
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean the sixteen hundreds, I mean there were just

743
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: so few Europeans in the trade network was not as strong,

744
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: but by the seventeen hundreds it was rocking and rolling.

745
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: Yes it is. And there actually is a great study

746
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 3: by a lady by the name of a professor, sorry,

747
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 3: by the name of Kathleen Duval, who explores the hunting

748
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: war that happens in the Arkansas River Valley between the

749
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 3: Oceage Qua Paul, the Cherokee, the French, the Spanish, and

750
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: the Americans. It's basically a war over fur in the

751
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: Arkansas River Valley through the seventeen hundreds, where the Osage

752
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 3: are the dominant and everybody else tries to team up

753
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 3: to drive the Oceage out. Wow, because they claim Arkansas

754
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 3: are good majority of Arkansas as they're hunting ground, but

755
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 3: they don't live here full time.

756
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: That's like their area, like non resident h Yes.

757
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: And even after the first treaty between the oce Age

758
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 3: and the United States, they seed fifty million acres over

759
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: the United States. But and so here, this chunk of

760
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: land is and so they decide, the American government decides,

761
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: let's send some Cherokee over. You're driving the Eastern Indians

762
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: over to the west. And so the Cherokee come over

763
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 3: and settle on some of that old o Sage hunting ground.

764
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: And the oce Age say, whoa, whoa, we gave you

765
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: the land, but we didn't give you the hunting rights. Oh,

766
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 3: and so we don't like the Cherokee hunting this. This

767
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: is still our game. They can live here, but they

768
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: can't hunt our game, and so it becomes like I said,

769
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,959
Speaker 3: then by that time, the Cherokees jumping on the fight

770
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: that's been going on between the Coapau and the French,

771
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: and then the o s Age, so they had another

772
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 3: player in the game. So it's a long drawn out.

773
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: I probably did the same thing. I'd be like, you

774
00:41:51,640 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: can have the land, but we're gonna hunt it. Wow.

775
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: So there they are. So that that early Arkansas post

776
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: stuff that was when there, that's right, that's there after

777
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: the would the progression be that as civilization as as

778
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: as larger European based cities began to form closer to

779
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: the Mississippi River, there were these big cities that needed meat.

780
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean, because it switches from fur to meat correct correct,

781
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: And then they're they're probably still shipping some firs.

782
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: Yes, it basically becomes an opportunity, a target of opportunity

783
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: when you do the fur. Uh. And that continues, of

784
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 3: course all the way until the nineteen hundreds and beyond.

785
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: But yes, it makes a transition. Uh. So those early

786
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 3: guys are after fur, and like I said, beaver's a

787
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 3: big one, but they're also hunting bear and selling bear meat,

788
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 3: bear grease, bear oil bison are killed out. By then

789
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: we have our last five when the last reported bison

790
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: that I have found. Now that doesn't mean that I'm

791
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: the expert on the bison because that was not my area,

792
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: but the last ones I found were in a cane

793
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 3: break on the White River in eighteen thirty five. That

794
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: was the last recorded report that I found, and it

795
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: was just a small number, very small number. So you

796
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 3: could probably argue that most of the bison were killed

797
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 3: out before eighteen hundred, for the majority.

798
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean, what about Gershtocker killed the bison when he

799
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: was in Arkansas.

800
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: Possible? Yeah, absolutely, I mean there are limited locations, but

801
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 3: it's not like you can make a living by killing

802
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 3: bison by then. What I'm saying, yeah, you got to

803
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: have a there's a transition that goes through as the

804
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: Bison league. Those are truly making living by bison. When

805
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: the bison are killed out, they move, just like many

806
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 3: of the most professional market hunters keep moving or change

807
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: their quarry one of the other. So the big game

808
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 3: begins to be killed out very very early because there's

809
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 3: a market for it. Beavers of course go uh and

810
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 3: then as we go and begin to transition post Civil War.

811
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 3: That's when industrialization, urbanization, immigration, more numbers and there's more,

812
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 3: and then the fair bears are beginning to be gone.

813
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 3: And so it changes over to where a true market

814
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: hunter is not after first per se there instead after

815
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: meat and its various meats that you killing deer, deer, deer,

816
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 3: as much as they can beer continue. The bear continue

817
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 3: to be killed out. The deer which had been killed

818
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 3: out there continue to be killed out, uh kind of

819
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 3: putting a I don't know what you call final nail,

820
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 3: the coffin to use something. And then they go after

821
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 3: they begin to go after birds. One of the first really,

822
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 3: I guess the species that you would see that disappears

823
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 3: the first that's that's not I mean the past your pigeon.

824
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: We've always are, you know, heard the story of the

825
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 3: past your pigeon. You know. Right across the border in

826
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 3: oak Homa was what they call a stool, a giant stool,

827
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 3: which basically that they said that there were you know,

828
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: upwards millions of birds that would roost there, and there

829
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 3: were people that would from Arkansas that would go over

830
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 3: there and they'd catch them at night. They're all up

831
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 3: in the roost in the trees. They'd set fires underneath them,

832
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: smoke them out, and they just hit the ground and

833
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: they just pick them up in baskets by the thousands.

834
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 3: So that's one of the things one of the things

835
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: that's pursued very early for food. Another is and the

836
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 3: first one that really catches the attention of Arkansas lawmakers

837
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 3: actually is the prairie chicken or the Panadi.

838
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: Grouse, which we don't even have here anymore.

839
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 3: There's a reason for that because they were all killed

840
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 3: out back then. Yeah, they were completely killed out and

841
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 3: they even that was really the first, I would say,

842
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: other than fish. Now, fish is kind of the first

843
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: where we see our first transition of any kind of

844
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: laws whatsoever, because everybody was fishing. Every single person was fishing.

845
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: It wasn't just market hunterson or sportsmen or things like that.

846
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 3: Everybody was fishing, so they could see those effects the earliest.

847
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 3: But as far as the panadd grouse goes, they're the

848
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 3: very first species that gets a species specific game law

849
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 3: on a five year moratorium. You couldn't shoot them for

850
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,959
Speaker 3: five years, and that like took it was too late.

851
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: I mean, there wasn't a sustainable population. So when it

852
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 3: came back in five years later Boddy killed anything because

853
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 3: they were already gone. They're gone.

854
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: What timeframe was that?

855
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 3: That's that's very early. That's like eighteen eighty compared to

856
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 3: the study. And I shouldn't say very.

857
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: Early, because we just have how do you say that grouse.

858
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 3: Penated grouse, woodland grouse. It's it's, you know, like a

859
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 3: prairie about West Arkansas.

860
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, in now East Arkansas's where we would have had

861
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: like prairie though.

862
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 3: That's true, But there's a lot there's actually I just

863
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: saw a a presentation the other day about how many

864
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 3: thousands of acres. It's a lot more than you think

865
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 3: there are prairie. There were prairies all over the place.

866
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 3: But yes, I mean the Grand Prairie of course, is

867
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 3: the one that we think of when we think about

868
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 3: around Stuttgarten and that area. But there are other pockets

869
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 3: of prairies, ye for sure. And where we are on

870
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 3: the west as well, there's some over there too. Yeah,

871
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 3: there were some over there too.

872
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: You know what surprised me inside of this is how

873
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: much talk there is of squirrels in market hunting huge well,

874
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: I mean, describe who is Josh Barr like they're like

875
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: talking like putting specific regulations and like shipping huge quantities

876
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: of squirrels out of Arkansas. Who's eating squirrels?

877
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 3: Okay, so again we have to look back at our

878
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 3: time and not think about it as food because local

879
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 3: folks eat eat the squirrels. But the market hunters are

880
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: killing squirrels for the tails because this is the birth

881
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 3: of sports fishing, and they would they want they want

882
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 3: the tails when when you were growing up, you didn't

883
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 3: look in the back of the magazines and they would

884
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 3: like maps would buy squirrel tails from Yeah, yeah, well

885
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 3: that's what it was about.

886
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: They're not shipping meat at no.

887
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 3: No, I mean there were no pumped.

888
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: People in like Saint Louis were eating a squirrel.

889
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 3: Now does that say that that they didn't ever do that?

890
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 3: The ever ship meat. I'm sure they shipped some squirrel meat,

891
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 3: but it would probably have been across the river because

892
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 3: it wouldn't have been worth the time and the effort

893
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: to deal with them. But it would kind of like

894
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: the kind of like why would you kill herring? You know,

895
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 3: why would you kill the sorry, the blue heron, Why

896
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 3: would you kill the heron? It's because they're not eating

897
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 3: the heron. They're after the plumage, you know, because that's

898
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 3: also coinciding at the time when all the women are

899
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 3: wearing the big hats, giant hats with the big plumes

900
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 3: on them, Right, that's what it is. We had one

901
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 3: of our very first wildlife refuges preserves, what it was

902
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 3: called then, it was called walker Walker Lake and it

903
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 3: was over in East Arkansas and it was a nationally

904
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 3: protected heron. Rookery and market hunter snuck in there and

905
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 3: killed them all out till they here, and they they

906
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 3: removed Walker Lake from the preserve because they were all gone, wow, wow,

907
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 3: killed them all. Yeah, it's pretty. It's just, uh, there's

908
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 3: so many things again digging through this, so I'll circle

909
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 3: back around to the original thing. And so I went

910
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 3: into Big Lake trying to want I wanted to write

911
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 3: a book links story of.

912
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: Big that's correct.

913
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 3: And so when I begin to dig I began to

914
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 3: realize and there's nothing out there that has been published

915
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 3: that I can piggyback on to talk about Big Lake

916
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 3: until I build this big contextual story. There has to

917
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 3: be placed in context, and that story, all the stories

918
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 3: that you read in that book, the whole fight about

919
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 3: the Arkansas game and fish Commission. There are some little

920
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 3: small articles here and there about market hunting in Arkansas

921
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: and that sort of thing. But this is all for

922
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 3: the most part, really because I tried to stay Arkansas

923
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 3: specific as much as possible, but put it in a state,

924
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 3: a regional and a national context around it. What's happening

925
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 3: all that sort of thing, And so I knew I

926
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 3: had to write this book before I could tackle.

927
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: So you got another book coming out.

928
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 3: The next book actually coming out for me in this

929
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 3: area is the federal side. This is all state. I'm

930
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 3: going to talk about the federal side and the next book,

931
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 3: which Big Leg's going to be prominent in it.

932
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: But like that when you say federally mean.

933
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: Like no federal efforts in Arkansas. In Arkansas, correct, Because

934
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 3: interestingly enough, we had the very first Jewish federal court

935
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 3: judge named Traber, and he will the very first national

936
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 3: bird law is passed, migratory bird law, not the Migratory

937
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 3: Bird Act, but the Minatory Bird Law. And it was

938
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 3: passed and in Traybor's courtroom in Arkansas, he declared it

939
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 3: unconstitutional and it was struck down in Arkansas a national law.

940
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: Now tell me why that's significant.

941
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 3: It's significant in that it forced the United States to

942
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 3: go back and create the Migratory Bird Treaty because you

943
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 3: cannot strike down a treaty because of unconstitutional grounds. Now

944
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 3: I'm really starting to get outside my area of expertise here,

945
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: but say, let me say this. When states join the

946
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 3: United States, they give up their ability to make deals

947
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 3: or negotiate with other countries. Understood, Therefore, the United States

948
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 3: can so when it makes a deal with another country,

949
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 3: it cannot be declared unconstituted because the Constitution dictates the

950
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 3: state power.

951
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: So did this judge here in Arkansas be like, hey,

952
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: we can't we can't regulate these birds because they don't

953
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: live here all the time. Is that what you're saying?

954
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: Like interpret for me, I don't fully understand, and maybe

955
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 1: it's not worth going into.

956
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: But right, he just said that the Federal Gunment was

957
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 3: overstepping its powers, that it didn't have the ability to

958
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: do what it was trying to do, and so it

959
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 3: was struck down there, and like I said, it forced

960
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 3: them to go back in. And this is some stuff

961
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 3: that I haven't had a chance to research fully either. Yeah,

962
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 3: and that's but that's what I want to do in

963
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 3: the next book. And the thing was is Trabor was

964
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 3: an incredible early conservationist, but he was following what he

965
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 3: thought was a letter of the law. And he was

966
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 3: a one when you broke federal law. I told you

967
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 3: Big Lake became a preserve when they went in there

968
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 3: and broke the law. He was the one many times

969
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 3: that the poachers ended up in front of and he

970
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: would you know, hammer them because he thought that was

971
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 3: the right thing to do. Yeah, that was one of

972
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 3: the steps that I want to look into. And there's

973
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 3: a lot of other players that get involved. And our

974
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 3: buddy Vizard, who is kind of he has a chapter

975
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,439
Speaker 3: of his Arsaw's first game, Arkansas's first game, ward not Arkansas's. Well,

976
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 3: he covered the whole state, but he was not hired

977
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 3: by the state. He was hired by a sportsman's Associationly,

978
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 3: that's right. They saved money and they were like, the

979
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: state's not going to do anything about it, and so

980
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 3: we're going to hire this guy to be enforced the

981
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 3: game laws that exist.

982
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 1: But he couldn't arrest people, he couldn't give them tickets,

983
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: and he didn't really have any power. He'd just kind

984
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: of be like he would do that kind of like

985
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: me shaming people for shooting Turkey to the podcast. Yeah

986
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: he had to go get a local deputy. Oh really, Yes,

987
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: he had to go get a local deputy. So he

988
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: basically went around and gathered information and turned it over

989
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: the local deputy and and that deputy would would handle it.

990
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: But he was he was a real hero though, I

991
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: mean he really was. He was really what was his

992
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: full name, Ernest Vivian Vizard and he was from like

993
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: nineteen oh six to nineteen fifteen or something.

994
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 3: He was, Yes, because he becomes a federal warden. So

995
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 3: he actually gets the job for the federal warden and

996
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 3: the very first enforcing mytor bird law. And so he

997
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 3: ends up back in Arkansas doing enforcement for this said.

998
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 1: This is a picture of him, but he actually had

999
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: quite a bit of philosophy for it, felt like he did.

1000
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: I mean, just like he kind of cast vision for

1001
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: why people why it was advantageous for people to preserve game,

1002
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: and why we wanted them and if we just obey

1003
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 1: the laws, there's going to be more game. I mean,

1004
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: he was a pretty he was kind of a visionary.

1005
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 3: He really trying to do the best he could with

1006
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 3: what he had, which wasn't much. He was very much underfunded.

1007
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 3: And if you read the chapter where he is, it's

1008
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 3: called the Prince and the Pauper, which is when his

1009
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 3: relationship with Tabasco air McElhenney, Yeah, you have the millionaire.

1010
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 3: And then he basically on this before it's all over with,

1011
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 3: he has sold his furniture. Vizard has trying to continue

1012
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 3: to fight and make pamphlets and and and all that

1013
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 3: sort of thing. When he's begging mclelhenny for a job

1014
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 3: or anything, any mclhenny suggests he starts selling magazines, sporting

1015
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 3: magazines door to door. Really, as he goes around the

1016
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 3: state the enforced laws, he's like, why don't you just

1017
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 3: you got a captive audience, why don't you sell magazine subscriptions.

1018
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 3: So he does that for a while while he's still

1019
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: the state game warden. But yes, he has no power,

1020
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 3: and here's the here's the kicker, and I'll even get you.

1021
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read you tell me well.

1022
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, I'll tie it in

1023
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 3: even more. When when the game is fish commission finally

1024
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 3: is established and we finally have wardens number one, we

1025
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 3: only have eight wardens for the entire state, and they

1026
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 3: won't let them have any more. But there will be

1027
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 3: a time when you look at the last few chapters

1028
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 3: where there's a fight against it to destroy it. They

1029
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 3: make the arrest powers away from the wardens.

1030
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 1: Interesting. I want to read the quote that you opened

1031
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: up this chapter six with, and this is Ernest V.

1032
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: Vissert in nineteen ten, Arkansas's first game warden, hired by

1033
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: this private company.

1034
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 3: Arkansas State and Sports Association.

1035
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: And he writes, I will guarantee that if the good

1036
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: farmers of the country will assist in securing the passage

1037
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: of a bill that will protect the game and fish

1038
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: of the state, as they have assisted in the enforcement

1039
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: of our present laws for the past six months, that

1040
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: within five years our fields will swarm with pheasants and

1041
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 1: other game birds that will aid them in the destruction

1042
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 1: of insect life. There was a big deal about birds

1043
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: killing insects.

1044
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 3: Big and Bolt Weaver was the big farmer for quail.

1045
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 1: And so they were leaning on farmers. And he says,

1046
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: our streams will be filled with the choicest fish, and

1047
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: their children may enjoy a few hours of sport with

1048
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: hook and line, as like their forefathers did a few

1049
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: years ago. So I mean he was like a he's

1050
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: kind of like a he was casting vision and just

1051
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: then interesting guy for no doubt.

1052
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 3: And what's even more interesting is he has no background.

1053
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 3: He's not a biology he's not a scientist, he's not

1054
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 3: he's not anything as is in that area. He's a

1055
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 3: failed businessman basically.

1056
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 6: Uh.

1057
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 3: His father was a doctor from Arkansas County that's stuck

1058
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 3: Art over by Stuttgart, who evidently was well known for

1059
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 3: his malaria treatments. And his father, that would be his

1060
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 3: visit's grandfather, was an exile from Belgium and he was

1061
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 3: a part of the aristocratic class over there, and evidently

1062
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 3: there was a scandal where there was an assassination and

1063
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 3: the VisArt family became kind of soiled, and so he

1064
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 3: picked up and left and came to all places Arkansas

1065
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 3: County and started a californ cattle farm. Wow.

1066
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: And so let me let me back up a little

1067
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: bit and and give me a maybe a little bit

1068
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: of an of an overview. It's kind of tough an

1069
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: overview of Well, I guess we've kind of already done it.

1070
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of the best way to describe

1071
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: like Arkansas would would have the first game laws that

1072
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: would start after the Civil War? Is that about right? Like, yes,

1073
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: where were the first game laws started?

1074
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 3: The very very first that that wasn't like a local

1075
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 3: but a statewide was eighteen seventy five and it was

1076
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 3: a non resident license law. We were the first state

1077
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 3: state in the nation to require non residents to purchase

1078
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 3: a license. Really and it was you know, not in forest.

1079
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: And but that was because all the states around this, Missouri, Tennessee,

1080
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: Mississippi had depleted a lot of their resources. In Arkansas

1081
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: was this destination correct? It's so interesting. In the book

1082
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: he talks about how the rail companies in Saint Louis,

1083
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: in Memphis and different places, they were advertising hunting packages

1084
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 1: like trips like round trip, like leave tonight being Arkansas,

1085
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: shooting ducks in the morning. And basically they had this

1086
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: package deal where you would buy a ticket on the

1087
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: train and you could carry one hundred pounds again and

1088
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: your dogs and your dogs, and they would take you

1089
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: to Arkansas and kick you out for a week or

1090
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: two weeks.

1091
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 3: Or a month however long you wanted.

1092
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so what was happening was that the people

1093
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: were coming here for recreation. People were buying land from

1094
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: out of state. And because Arkansas was just this like

1095
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: no man's land in a way. I mean, it was

1096
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 1: just this underdeveloped, non progress I didn't have real strong

1097
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: government at the time, probably crippled up from the from

1098
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: the Civil War and infrastructure, and it was just like

1099
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: but it was this wild place that had yet to

1100
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: be really logged out much of much around us because

1101
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: of the massive swamps in the in the mountains. A

1102
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: lot of Arkansas wasn't heavily law I mean it was

1103
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: starting to be.

1104
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 3: For sure, Right, that's happening. At the same time this

1105
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 3: is happening, all of our resources are going out of

1106
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 3: the state.

1107
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: Well, and it's because of these railroads, that's right.

1108
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 3: Railroads is a big one.

1109
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: Railroads are bringing out lumber and goods and game, but

1110
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: also bringing in sport hunters, right, so basically everything. Yeah,

1111
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: everything that we could export, we were, that's right, And

1112
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 1: we were, but we were other people from other places

1113
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: were saying, come to Arkansas and hunting.

1114
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and the railroads were that advertising those packages.

1115
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 3: But then they had pamphlets that they would publish and

1116
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 3: it would say what is your game pursuit And it

1117
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 3: would say, well, I want to go after you know quail,

1118
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 3: and it would say, well, this is where, this is

1119
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 3: the three stations you need to stop at. And then

1120
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 3: it would say you need to hire mister Jones for

1121
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 3: his wagon, and mister Jones will carry you four miles

1122
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 3: away this direction and bring outfits to camp for a week.

1123
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 3: And so it's a total guide on how to exploit

1124
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 3: the resources wildlife resources of Arkansas. And they were making bank,

1125
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 3: you know, because they would then haul them back. But

1126
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 3: on the backside of that, you know, you've got the

1127
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 3: market hunters that are also being brought by train. There

1128
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 3: is a man in Chicago that becomes kind of the

1129
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 3: meat man of the day. He is the meat King,

1130
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 3: and he hires one hundred market hunters, hires a private train,

1131
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 3: puts some market hunters on the Canadian border, and they

1132
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 3: follow the migration down on the train with one hundred hunters,

1133
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 3: and he sends railcars down with ammunition supplies and empty

1134
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 3: boxes of ice. They pack up the goods, they send

1135
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 3: it back and it comes just basically and they follow

1136
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,439
Speaker 3: it all the migration all the way down. Holy kill

1137
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 3: kill kill kill Wow, ducks, ducks and geese and anything

1138
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 3: that flies plover anything all the way up and down.

1139
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 3: And that's just one example. There's no I mean, this

1140
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 3: is an example of what's happening in many places that

1141
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 3: had already happened. Yeah, you know, we're really as far

1142
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 3: as now obviously if you go far west that that

1143
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 3: happens post you know, in time, post nineteen hundred. But

1144
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 3: as far as the east goes, this had already done it.

1145
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 3: This has already happened.

1146
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 6: So we're like the last holdout in the We truly are,

1147
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 6: we're I mean, we're we're on the edge that that

1148
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 6: right butting up against the Mississippi River, Oklahoma, Indian Territory.

1149
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 3: Oklahoma is pretty much with us because if you take

1150
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: a snapshot, like eighteen twenty, Arkansas Territory includes Oklahoma. And

1151
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 3: so they talk about, well, as this began, these animals

1152
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,919
Speaker 3: begin to kind of disappear, a lot of people begin

1153
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 3: to talk about, let's go to Indian Territory instead. And

1154
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 3: so it's that really, to me, is the last vestage

1155
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 3: unless you go well out west what we would consider

1156
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,439
Speaker 3: west today. Remember we're west at the time. Yeah, yeah,

1157
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 3: we're considered the west.

1158
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it always it took me a long time to

1159
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: wrap my mind right. Book, my favorite book, this booked

1160
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: by Frederick Gerstacker. Yeah, he you know, his book was

1161
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: called Wild Sports of the Far West.

1162
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right.

1163
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 1: And you don't think of Arkansas as the far West,

1164
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: but yeah, in the eighteen thirties it.

1165
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 3: Was, yes, and people thought when they jumped the Mississippi River,

1166
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 3: they were and separated from the from the east. So

1167
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 3: one of the great things when you're talking about Gerstacker

1168
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 3: and all those early travelers to Arkansas, there's a family,

1169
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 3: all the billings Leaves, and they come very early to Arkansas,

1170
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 3: and they come down to Cadron, which is Conway modern

1171
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 3: day Conway, and they run into two families that have

1172
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 3: two patriarchs. Who are they They feed their families from

1173
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 3: the woods exclusively. They don't ho a row, they don't

1174
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 3: do any kind of agriculture whatsoever. And one of them

1175
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 3: is called Flanagan. One of them's called massing Gill. Well.

1176
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 3: I began to I thought that those guys are pretty interesting.

1177
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 3: Let me find out more about them. Each of them

1178
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 3: had two wives and they had both had sack full kids.

1179
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 3: They were Tories, they were loyalists really in the American Revolution,

1180
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 3: and when they lost, when the Brits lost, they ran

1181
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 3: instead of going to Canada or going you know, back

1182
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 3: somewhere else, they ran and jumped the Mississippi River and

1183
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 3: got to our back. Of course, they were outside of

1184
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 3: the United States and thought they were safe, and that's

1185
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 3: that's what put them here. Interesting they were Conway, Yeah,

1186
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 3: and Conway, Arkansas ran off from the American post American

1187
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 3: Revolution and came all over here. Wow. And I have

1188
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 3: been told by some of my folks from Conway that

1189
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 3: those families are still there. Is that right? That's right?

1190
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 3: That name is the Flanagans and Masson Gills, and there's

1191
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 3: a couple of others. They're still known in Conway.

1192
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: That is interesting. When we did our series on the

1193
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: Bear State, and we kind of did this Arkansas. We

1194
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: did two podcasts in Arkansas several a couple of years

1195
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 1: ago on Bear Grease, and I mean, yeah, you you

1196
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 1: you started to see the immigration patterns into Arkansas usually

1197
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 1: was people that were running from something, were impoverished. This

1198
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: was like not the place you wanted to go. And

1199
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: that's that explains though, in a functional way, why why

1200
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: wildness and wild game populations kind of held out for

1201
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: an eastern region Because I mean, there just weren't a

1202
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: lot of people here. I mean I think by I

1203
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: think in eighteen twenty, I mean they were like I

1204
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 1: want to say, there were like thirty thousand people in

1205
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: Arkansas or something.

1206
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 3: I could be wrong about that, But in eighteen ten,

1207
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 3: there's one thousand and sixty four.

1208
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, Okay, so I think I'm right. Then by

1209
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty it was like.

1210
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 3: Eighteen twenty it had gone up considerably, but it was only.

1211
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: Still that's an astonishingly low number it is of people.

1212
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 3: Well, you know, the big one of the big things

1213
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 3: for Arkansas is our geography is a problem because if

1214
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 3: you're let's say, depending on the time, let's just use

1215
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 3: the goal Rush Mine or forty nine er. All right,

1216
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 3: when people are going and they want to go farther west,

1217
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 3: they're going to come across and if you look at

1218
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 3: up map, the correct map from the time, let's say

1219
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 3: an eighteen twenty map, then they're literally on the map

1220
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 3: it says the Great Swamp on the eastern side of Arkansas.

1221
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: Is that right?

1222
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 3: So if you're going to go to Oregon, California, you

1223
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 3: know all that sort of thing, do you want to

1224
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 3: go through the Great Swamp? Well, no, you're either going

1225
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 3: to go north of that, or you're gonna go south there. Well,

1226
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 3: how many times do these people actually make it to

1227
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 3: their destination way out wherever they may go along and

1228
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you go along your trip and

1229
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 3: Paul die. We need to set down roots right here,

1230
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 3: We need to be right here. Well, if you've gone there,

1231
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 3: you're setting up roots in Missouri. If you've gone down here,

1232
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 3: you're setting roots in Louisiana. You don't have a chance

1233
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 3: to set up roots in Arkansas because you never went there.

1234
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 3: You never you were turned off by the so truly

1235
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 3: for a long period of time, if you're in Arkansas,

1236
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: you wanted to be in Arkansas, you had you wanted

1237
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 3: to come to.

1238
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: The Arkansas saying is that the Delta region of Arkansas,

1239
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: the swamp, made a barrier to entry, so people were

1240
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 1: going north of it or south of correct.

1241
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 3: And then when Indian territory is set up, who wants

1242
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 3: you know, you hear all the terrible stories. People with

1243
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 3: terrible stories will be killed by Indians, will be killed

1244
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 3: by natives Native Americans over there, and so we are

1245
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 3: not even going to take a chance because that's on

1246
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 3: the other side of the Great Swamp. Even if we

1247
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 3: even get through the Great Swamp, we're not going to

1248
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 3: go through Indian territory. We'll be murdered. Yeah, and so

1249
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 3: there's a double I think there was a historian. I'm

1250
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 3: pretty sure there was a historian called it basically call

1251
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,799
Speaker 3: it a mill Pon effect. Yeah, you know, it's basically

1252
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:30,480
Speaker 3: what it was, and that's one of the reasons our population.

1253
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: Was So now I've heard that, I agreed with you

1254
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: and said, yeah, Millpon I guess I don't really even

1255
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 1: know what that means, though.

1256
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,440
Speaker 3: It's basically a build up where just stagnant, stagnated place.

1257
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: Just stagnant. And so but that caused us, I mean

1258
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: for wildlife, that was good. We held that, we held out,

1259
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 1: but then we became this destination, a hunting place. And

1260
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,719
Speaker 1: so your book deals a lot with this conflict between

1261
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: market hunters and sport hunters right at the at the

1262
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 1: around the turn of the century, that's correct, and when when?

1263
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: And it's such an interesting time for those of us

1264
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: interested in wildlife today because so many of the modern

1265
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: ideas about wildlife conservation were being forged, you know, with

1266
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: the Boone and Crocket Club and Teddy Roosevelt and all

1267
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: these great patriarchs of the conservation movement who were you know,

1268
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 1: kind of rewriting the way that people thought about wild game.

1269
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 1: And so there was this like fifty years of I mean,

1270
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:27,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was fifty years, but probably

1271
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:32,560
Speaker 1: of just conflict between people that would have viewed wildlife

1272
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 1: in a certain way as a commodity, not as a resource,

1273
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: not as something to be to be protected intentionally. And

1274
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 1: then you had these guys like Roosevelt that we that

1275
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,759
Speaker 1: were trying to that were sportsmen that wanted fair chase,

1276
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: that wanted to have an experience with the wild and

1277
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: go hunt, and it meant more than just getting game.

1278
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 1: It meant, you know, some kind of quest in a way.

1279
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: And so it was like these this and that's a

1280
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,440
Speaker 1: lot of what you're book talks about and the legislation

1281
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: around quantifying that those ideas.

1282
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 3: Yes, and you remember this is also a time when, uh,

1283
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 3: the government's trying to get you to dip your cattle,

1284
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,520
Speaker 3: and so there's you know, all these sort of governmental

1285
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 3: regulations and trying to you know, I do a lot

1286
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 3: of change, uh, And there's a lot of pushback, a

1287
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 3: lot of pushback from from a variety of different reasons.

1288
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 3: There's a people, there's politicians that don't want that that

1289
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 3: are actually making money from the market uh, selling selling

1290
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 3: game and fish. Uh. And there's folks, of course, and

1291
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 3: you can if you're from Arkansas, you can relate with

1292
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 3: this statement. There are people, uh common folk in Arkansas

1293
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 3: believe that if their grandfather hunted and this time of

1294
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 3: year and this game, then by GOLLI ought to be

1295
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 3: able to do it, and no regulation is going to

1296
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 3: stop me. Yes, you know that still happens today, that's right.

1297
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 3: And and so that's that mentality. And that's one of

1298
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 3: the things when you're talking about Vizard trying that was

1299
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 3: like a newspaper article. He's basically trying to convince everybody

1300
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 3: he can on the benefits of doing that. And that's

1301
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 3: also what a lot of are new organizations. There's a

1302
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 3: women's organization and what they do is see visits trying

1303
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:26,759
Speaker 3: to convince adults and the smaller women's organizations, they're about

1304
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,839
Speaker 3: songbirds and things like that. They're educating children in schools.

1305
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 3: They're putting out pamphlets about the benefits of the robin,

1306
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 3: the benefits of the songbirds, because most of those are

1307
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:41,480
Speaker 3: migratory birds. Too, and so there's a big effort basically

1308
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 3: to educate the public on a lot of different levels,

1309
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 3: and of course some refuse to accept it.

1310
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:54,560
Speaker 1: You know, to this day, I'm amazed at the lingering

1311
01:11:55,520 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 1: ideology of families of just groups of people that lasts

1312
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 1: so long. I mean, all foreshadow a touch on the

1313
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: podcast that's going to come out next week on Bear Grease.

1314
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: It's a podcast about a particular man's engagement and views

1315
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 1: on wildlife law. Essentially, it's about a modern guy that

1316
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: basically was a pretty bad turkey outlaw. This guy still

1317
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 1: alive and we interviewed him and he's not a turkey

1318
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: outlaw anymore, and that's kind of why we talked about him.

1319
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 1: It's kind of a human interest story more than anything.

1320
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 3: And evolution of a man.

1321
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:40,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I made a statement when I was writing

1322
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: that podcast. The part that I write is I said,

1323
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:49,200
Speaker 1: it feels like people like when I look back on

1324
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: people that I know and I engage with, it feels

1325
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 1: like people that were adults by the nineteen sixties typically,

1326
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 1: or there's a group of them that can have a

1327
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 1: very different view on game laws than people born later.

1328
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like game laws are kind of just a suggestion,

1329
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 1: and it's and it's it's it's interesting because as I'm

1330
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: reading your book and talking to you today after I

1331
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: wrote that, it's like we were having game laws in

1332
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies. I mean, it's not like this guy's

1333
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 1: granddad was a market hunter. Well I guess he could

1334
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: have been that. Maybe that proves my point is that

1335
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 1: that it feels like something. It feels like y'all just

1336
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 1: be able to wake up and be like, all right, guys, hey,

1337
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 1: we can't shoot ninety thousand ducks and ship them to

1338
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 1: Chicago anymore. Okay, we're gonna become sport hunters. We're gonna

1339
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 1: go out and obey the laws, and you're each gonna

1340
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 1: kill six but only for ninety days a year. And

1341
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, okay, that's great, let's do that.

1342
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1343
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 1: No, man, I mean there are guys.

1344
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:51,839
Speaker 2: Some significant pushback.

1345
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, remember that's their job. That's how they're

1346
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 3: making live and feeding their families and things like that.

1347
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 3: And and so that's the that's attitude saying you're taking

1348
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 3: my job away after change what I may have done

1349
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 3: for twenty years, and so you're saying that I can't

1350
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:08,760
Speaker 3: do that anymore, and I'm not you know, it's not

1351
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 3: gonna work. Man.

1352
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 1: I Like, it's really easy on this side of it

1353
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 1: to be like, I know exactly where I would have stood.

1354
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:17,679
Speaker 1: I would have I would have I would have said

1355
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 1: game laws, But man, I would have bid I had

1356
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: a hard time not standing with the people that it

1357
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 1: probably would have mattered who I loved. Yeah, like if

1358
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:31,840
Speaker 1: my I mean, I I find I'm really empathetic towards

1359
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,800
Speaker 1: people that I that I that I love and I'm

1360
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: connected to. And it's like, at that time, it really

1361
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 1: wasn't a moral Maybe maybe they were starting to make

1362
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 1: it kind of a moral issue, but it was more

1363
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 1: like a maybe almost like a business issue.

1364
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 3: You know, definitely economics involved. Of course. One of the

1365
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 3: interesting things is, uh, there it depends, just like you said,

1366
01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 3: depends on where you stand and who you're with. But

1367
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 3: if let's say your grandfather was a timberman and had

1368
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,880
Speaker 3: done timber all his life, and all of a sudden

1369
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 3: they said no more timber cutting ever, or you can

1370
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 3: only cut so much timber but it's not enough to

1371
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 3: make a living from, then that's the pushback. I think

1372
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 3: you had to think of wildlife as a natural, as

1373
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:27,640
Speaker 3: a resource as a commodity like coal and timber and

1374
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 3: now this, and so that's the mentality of the market.

1375
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 3: So when there's rumblings of possible game law to slow

1376
01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:37,960
Speaker 3: that down, they kill even more because they think it's

1377
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 3: gonna go away so or or not even game all.

1378
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 3: They're disappearing like the grouse. It's like this stop, not

1379
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 3: not let's stop, it's kill all we can before they

1380
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 3: go away.

1381
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: Isn't that wild?

1382
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 3: That's totally different things, you know, because the sportsman was like,

1383
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,719
Speaker 3: oh no, we must pass these laws. But the market

1384
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,839
Speaker 3: hunters are going to kill them all before they're gone.

1385
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:01,719
Speaker 1: Better, we better get them before and again.

1386
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 3: And that was a whole deal. That was one of

1387
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 3: the big push you know, big pushbacks, is they're they're

1388
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 3: simply not going to stop. And what was interesting is

1389
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 3: even after the the biological survey took over places like

1390
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 3: Big Lake, they kept showing up and kept shooting illegally. Wow,

1391
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 3: you know. And the big one of the things I

1392
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 3: said that fishing was kind of the first place where

1393
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,600
Speaker 3: they started. And that was nationally too. Uh. During the

1394
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 3: colonial American colonial period, they were passing laws on the

1395
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 3: East coast about fishing because they were fishing out the

1396
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 3: streams and salmon runs. Uh. That was very early is

1397
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 3: where they started, was fishing, and it's one of the

1398
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 3: places they started with Arkansas because I remember remember, like

1399
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 3: I said, we're talking about the same time. So they're

1400
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 3: building infrastructure, trying to build infrastructure at the same time. Right.

1401
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 3: One of the big infrastructure pushes, of course as roads. Well,

1402
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:51,560
Speaker 3: you build a road up here in the ozarks and washtalls.

1403
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 3: What's the number one tool to build roads before mechanization

1404
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 3: dynamite m So every shaft along a road, stretch of

1405
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 3: road had dynamite in it, so he was everybody. And

1406
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 3: back then you could go buy dynamite, so you could

1407
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 3: steal it or buy it, and they just let's go fishing.

1408
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:13,760
Speaker 3: Went fishing with it, absolutely, and that was one of

1409
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,599
Speaker 3: the big things that was I saw over and over

1410
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 3: and over again as some of the very first trying

1411
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:24,320
Speaker 3: to make statewide game laws was against dynamite fishing because

1412
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 3: they were destroying, completely destroying rivers, wow, with dynamite. And

1413
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 3: they finally make it a felony to use dynamite. Really, yep,

1414
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 3: they make it a felony, and then they realize it's

1415
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:36,639
Speaker 3: a mistake.

1416
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:38,679
Speaker 2: What would have been that time period.

1417
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:43,600
Speaker 3: That probably would have been Oh if I had I

1418
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 3: wouldn't know off the top of my head, but it

1419
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 3: would be probably around eighteen ninety, give or take. There's

1420
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:53,679
Speaker 3: a man that kills another fella in World War One.

1421
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:57,560
Speaker 3: During World One, two soldiers get a hold of some

1422
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,200
Speaker 3: dynamite and they're off, they're out on like leave or whatever.

1423
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 3: And he thought he had a regular fuse. He was

1424
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:05,680
Speaker 3: unfamiliar with dynamite and he had a fast fuse and

1425
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 3: blew him up and killed the guy next to him.

1426
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:13,760
Speaker 3: But that he was gonna get tried for murder. But

1427
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 3: that was a big one. They tried to do that,

1428
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 3: didn't They realized it was a mistake to make it

1429
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 3: a felony because no jury would send a man to

1430
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 3: prison for catching blowing up fish. So juries wouldn't convict

1431
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:28,559
Speaker 3: because they would not send him. It was mandatory one

1432
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 3: year in prison for a felony. So they're like, we

1433
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 3: have to change that back and lessen the penalty.

1434
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh wow, because a man would stand up and he

1435
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:38,559
Speaker 1: would be like his lawyer would be like, hey, this

1436
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:40,400
Speaker 1: guy was trying to feed his fans, that's right to

1437
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: send him to prison for his feet and trying to

1438
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: feed his family.

1439
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,479
Speaker 3: Exactly whether it would be true or not.

1440
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 2: Right, Wow, fascinating.

1441
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 1: Game laws to me are are so interesting, and because

1442
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 1: we're so focused on conservation and hunting, this is the

1443
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 1: thing that we've dedicated a big chunk of our lives too,

1444
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 1: that we we love wildlife. We view it as like

1445
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 1: essential for us to have the quality of life that

1446
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 1: we want to have. I mean, wildlife to a lot

1447
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:15,759
Speaker 1: of people that are listening to this is like really important.

1448
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 1: But the truth is, I mean it's not existential in

1449
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 1: a way. I mean, like I'm thinking about a jury

1450
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 1: that's going to convict the guy for dynamiting when probably

1451
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 1: the week before they were trying a guy for for murder,

1452
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,240
Speaker 1: or for or for for robbing a bank or for

1453
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 1: something even worse maybe and it's like.

1454
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:42,320
Speaker 2: The game laws just didn't seem very egregious.

1455
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 1: Well I mean yeah, but it's like today, I mean,

1456
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:51,679
Speaker 1: I'm like, send him to jail, you know. But it's

1457
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:55,680
Speaker 1: it's kind of sometimes you have to. I mean, I'm

1458
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,320
Speaker 1: not suggesting we should have lesser game game laws. I

1459
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 1: think sometimes they're way too light, but I think that

1460
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,599
Speaker 1: so it's it. That's why it's interesting. It's it's it's

1461
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 1: it's that these things are so important and guys, guys

1462
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 1: commit their lives to wildlife management and so you kind

1463
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:15,160
Speaker 1: of have in today. I mean, there's people whose careers

1464
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 1: are involved around wildlife management, and so somebody that doesn't

1465
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 1: take the laws seriously, that's breaking the law. Like he's

1466
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 1: he's violating more than just killing an extra turkey. He's

1467
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 1: messing with people's lives.

1468
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 3: You know.

1469
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 1: That's that's the way one way to think about it.

1470
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 1: So like the punishment should be pretty severe, you know. Oh, man,

1471
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 1: I can't wait till next week. When we were coming

1472
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 1: out with an episode next week that tried me as

1473
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 1: a podcaster in a way, and Josh helped me quite

1474
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:49,720
Speaker 1: a bit with it. And uh, because it's it's a

1475
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: really interesting story with it with a man that I

1476
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:54,960
Speaker 1: actually really have a lot of respect for.

1477
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 3: Uh.

1478
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: But it's a it's a it's it's an interesting story.

1479
01:20:58,360 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 1: It's about game law violation.

1480
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 3: I look forward to it.

1481
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, how long I have no idea this has been

1482
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 1: so interesting out zero concept of how long we've been talking. Yeah, man,

1483
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:15,480
Speaker 1: this Uh, we didn't even scratch the surface of the book.

1484
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 3: You know, I'm I think one of the if you

1485
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 3: take a look at the I think it's the very

1486
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 3: first blurb on the back. I think that gives me

1487
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 3: the most pride. Is it? Is it the one?

1488
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:26,840
Speaker 1: Which one is? I'll read it.

1489
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 3: That's it? Yeah, it says.

1490
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 1: Foster's passion for Arkansas wildlife and conservation shines through in

1491
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 1: this book. His research and primary materials is simply outstanding.

1492
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: I doubt anyone has read and assembled more material in

1493
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:41,160
Speaker 1: Arkansas hunting and fishing in the late nineteenth and early

1494
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 1: twentieth centuries.

1495
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:44,519
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's the thing I'm most proud about,

1496
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 3: because I truly tried to search every single source that

1497
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:55,120
Speaker 3: you could potentially reach, and I'm sure I miss some.

1498
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:59,720
Speaker 3: But I was in Maryland at the National Archives for

1499
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 3: two weeks and just gathering information on the federal side,

1500
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 3: and these records had never been touched.

1501
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 2: Wow.

1502
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 3: Since they had been placed there in the nineteen teen's,

1503
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 3: twenties and thirties, they had never been open. The reason

1504
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 3: I knew that is because they were all staple together,

1505
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:19,640
Speaker 3: and you can't use the staple materials, so you have

1506
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 3: to take them up. You can't remove them yourself, so

1507
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:23,439
Speaker 3: you have to take them up there. Well, the first

1508
01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:25,439
Speaker 3: week all I did was stand in line to get

1509
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 3: the staples removed. And it was very interesting because they

1510
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:31,960
Speaker 3: were game and fish. There were some Arkansas game and

1511
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 3: fish stuff too. US Biological survey primarily is what I

1512
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 3: was looking at the management of Big Lake and that

1513
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 3: sort of thing. And there was a turkey feather somebody.

1514
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 3: There was a vendor who was a propagation guy who

1515
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:47,080
Speaker 3: was basically raising turkeys that wanted to bring them to Arkansas.

1516
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 3: And so it was like his calling was a paper

1517
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:50,960
Speaker 3: and it was his calling card and it had a

1518
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 3: turkey feather stuck in it.

1519
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:52,679
Speaker 2: Wow.

1520
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:54,479
Speaker 3: And I pulled it out and it was like I

1521
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:57,960
Speaker 3: had just pulled out a nuclear bomb. They had people

1522
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 3: coming from underneath the basements with lab coats on and

1523
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff. It's like biological material must be

1524
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 3: whatever they had gloves on, and it was it was

1525
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:08,680
Speaker 3: so interesting that they there. They didn't know it was

1526
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:12,200
Speaker 3: there because it had never been undone. Why these done

1527
01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 3: that had been there over one hundred years? That turkey feather?

1528
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 1: Wow, that's cool.

1529
01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 3: And so that was interesting. Went to Fort Worth to

1530
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 3: the National Archives. Down there, there are different branches that

1531
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 3: was lawbreakers who broke federal law. The court records were down.

1532
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:31,360
Speaker 3: There been to just just lots and lots and lots

1533
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 3: of places little every I tried to go to every

1534
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:37,559
Speaker 3: single county historical society that had any kind of archives

1535
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 3: whatsoever about any sort of thing.

1536
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:40,920
Speaker 1: I think we've got our new friends.

1537
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt.

1538
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: For really we need you back on the burgeries probably

1539
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 1: the render just as a guest.

1540
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:50,320
Speaker 3: Well, it's I've dug a lot of places, and like

1541
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 3: I said earlier, this book's about fifty seven fifty eight

1542
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:58,719
Speaker 3: thousand words, and I removed seventy thousand the requests simply

1543
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 3: because it was just too much for academic study.

1544
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 2: You know, it's serious one. That's too much for an

1545
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 2: academic study.

1546
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:08,640
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, dial it back down a little bit,

1547
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 1: doctor Foster.

1548
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's like I said, that's one of the

1549
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 3: things that I really have tried to work on is

1550
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 3: is finding and if you look at some of those people,

1551
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 3: they're really identified. They're not just like this guy was

1552
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:25,160
Speaker 3: a judge. I'll try to say what he did for

1553
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 3: his whole career, what he did for a living, where

1554
01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:29,920
Speaker 3: he was at at the time, and all different pieces

1555
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:32,920
Speaker 3: and aspects to really give. You know, again, I'm an

1556
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 3: I'm Arkansawyer and I'm trying to I mean, I was

1557
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 3: looking at myself as an Arkansas hunter who would want

1558
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:41,120
Speaker 3: to read this book, and I want to know everything.

1559
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 3: Whatever happened to that guy? Yeah, I want to look

1560
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:45,559
Speaker 3: in the notes and say, what happened to that guy? Yeah?

1561
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 3: You know, the desert becomes my hero. I mean, I

1562
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,360
Speaker 3: guess I'm a defender of vizard. He has this bad

1563
01:24:50,439 --> 01:24:53,679
Speaker 3: side too, but he really if you had to point

1564
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 3: to one person during that period, he would be the guy.

1565
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 1: He'd be the guy.

1566
01:24:57,160 --> 01:24:58,680
Speaker 3: He would be the guy. And I want I'll tell

1567
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:02,680
Speaker 3: you another piece of information that people I guarantee you know,

1568
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 3: very very few people know about this. So Tabasco Air mcklehenny, right,

1569
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 3: he is a bird. He is a bird conservationist. His

1570
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:16,920
Speaker 3: the island, Avery Island down there. He turns it into

1571
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 3: a bird refuge and he connects with a couple of

1572
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 3: wealthy the one's a widow, railroad widow, Tycoons widow, and

1573
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 3: then another person they're both they're all three of these conservationists.

1574
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 3: Mclehenny's dream is to have bird refuges all up the

1575
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 3: Mississippi Flyway from Canada all the way down, and so

1576
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:43,240
Speaker 3: they'll have places to rest and live. Okay. He connects,

1577
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 3: Visit connects with Vizard. They get together and mclehenny says,

1578
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:52,040
Speaker 3: if Arkansas will pass meaningful game legislation to protect the birds,

1579
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:56,679
Speaker 3: I will give them one hundred thousand acres. I will

1580
01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:59,559
Speaker 3: purchase the acreage in Arkansas and give it to the

1581
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:03,439
Speaker 3: state if they'll pass loss to protect it. Wow. And

1582
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,240
Speaker 3: Arkansas doesn't do it. Wow. And so he does it

1583
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:09,160
Speaker 3: for Mississippi hm hm.

1584
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 1: And what land is that today in Mississippi.

1585
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 3: I do not know.

1586
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:15,679
Speaker 1: Okay, Wow.

1587
01:26:16,439 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 3: It would probably be either a reserve preserve or a forest.

1588
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: He's probably split up.

1589
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably in pieces and parts, that's correct. Be

1590
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 3: hard to get one hundred thousans.

1591
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:26,839
Speaker 1: At least he did it somewhere on the flyway.

1592
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 3: He did, and he did it. They did it down

1593
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:31,679
Speaker 3: there in Louisiana too. Most of much of the state

1594
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 3: land down there in Louisiana is old mccahoney ground. If

1595
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:36,480
Speaker 3: it's around the Mississippi.

1596
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't buy to Alaska hot sauce you were using

1597
01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 1: on the turkey thwack. Let's go back to Tabasco. Yeah,

1598
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 1: the conservationists.

1599
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:47,240
Speaker 3: He came to Arkansas several times. He had a little

1600
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 3: traveling slide show and he would the glass slides and

1601
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 3: he had a projector that would project him up and

1602
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 3: he would do, you know, conserve the animals, Conserve the birds.

1603
01:26:57,160 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 3: He was a big bird guy. Conserve the birds. And

1604
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:01,680
Speaker 3: he had all these different birds on these slides. And

1605
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:06,000
Speaker 3: I'm sure the probably I bet Tabasco Archives, there's a

1606
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 3: great historian down there. And he helped me a lot

1607
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,719
Speaker 3: on the on the some of the conversations. There were letters,

1608
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 3: lots and lots of letters between visit and maclahenny, and

1609
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:15,559
Speaker 3: he helped me find some letters and things like that,

1610
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:18,040
Speaker 3: send them to me. I bet they still have some

1611
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:18,719
Speaker 3: of those slides.

1612
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:19,080
Speaker 2: Wow.

1613
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:20,599
Speaker 3: I would bet you they do. Wow.

1614
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,880
Speaker 1: Well, hey, this has been fantastic. You can if you

1615
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:27,679
Speaker 1: can check out this book. So great was the slaughter Market, Hunters,

1616
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 1: Sportsmen and Wildlife Conservation in Arkansas, Buckley T. Foster that

1617
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 1: you can order that probably.

1618
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 3: Just Amazon, University of Valbamba, Press, Barnes and Noble, all

1619
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 3: of them. Yeah, or you know, I'm going across the

1620
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 3: state one venue at a time doing book talks and signings,

1621
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 3: so they can book you and they can contact me.

1622
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 3: My website is Arkansas Wildlife hisstory dot com. You can

1623
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 3: contact me through there and also has a Facebook page

1624
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 3: same thing, and you can, yes, you can contact me

1625
01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:04,840
Speaker 3: through there. One last thing before we wrap it up.

1626
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 3: We get to nineteen twenty five. And it's one of

1627
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:09,479
Speaker 3: the reasons I end to my book in nineteen twenty five,

1628
01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 3: when you take a snapshot in nineteen twenty five, and

1629
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:14,680
Speaker 3: again I'm going to go back to say when I

1630
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 3: say there are none, I don't mean zero, but I

1631
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 3: mean not enough to do anything with. We get to

1632
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty five, bearer gone, bison or gone. We have

1633
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:30,160
Speaker 3: two thousand deer left in the entire state. There's over

1634
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 3: a million now. Turkey are gone, Quail are basically gone,

1635
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:41,320
Speaker 3: panad grouse is extinct for the most part. The only

1636
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 3: thing really we have left are squirrels and rabbits. That's it.

1637
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:52,759
Speaker 3: And of course migratory anything migratory we still have access

1638
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:55,840
Speaker 3: to that. I mean, I'm talking about animals that were here. Yeah,

1639
01:28:56,840 --> 01:29:00,639
Speaker 3: all that's gone. So if it wasn't for the if

1640
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 3: it wasn't for the efforts, and I don't want to

1641
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:06,679
Speaker 3: sound like a game and fish, Arkansas game and fish

1642
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:10,360
Speaker 3: hoo rah. But really during this time and what follows after,

1643
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 3: if it wasn't for the Arkansas game and fish propagation

1644
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:17,640
Speaker 3: efforts in the thirties, forties and beyond, there would be

1645
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 3: no game here to hunt or get after. They just

1646
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 3: wouldn't be here. They're gone. They're gone by twenty five,

1647
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:25,840
Speaker 3: and people don't one.

1648
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:26,479
Speaker 1: Hundred years ago.

1649
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 3: That's right, they were gone. And see we you know,

1650
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:31,240
Speaker 3: you get on social media message boards there's a lot

1651
01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 3: of bashing against the game and fish commissions all over

1652
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:36,680
Speaker 3: place like that. And I'm not talking about modern But

1653
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:38,880
Speaker 3: if it wasn't for the early efforts of the early

1654
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:41,160
Speaker 3: game and fish, there would there would be no game

1655
01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:43,800
Speaker 3: to hunt. I mean, that's a bottom line. Yeah, they

1656
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 3: did it. They brought back turkeys in the seventies, that

1657
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,640
Speaker 3: brought back black Bear. I mentioned in the book my

1658
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:50,960
Speaker 3: dad was born in thirty six. He never saw a lot,

1659
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 3: and he was all over the washingtalls. His grandpa ran

1660
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:57,160
Speaker 3: Faral hogs and so they were all over chasing Farrell

1661
01:29:57,160 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 3: hogs in the washingtalls. And he don't never saw a

1662
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,920
Speaker 3: bear in the woods until he was seventy years old. Yeah,

1663
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 3: because they weren't here. Yeah. Yeah.

1664
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: Man, it's astonishing when you understand the context of what

1665
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:13,000
Speaker 1: we've got today that we can walk out of these

1666
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:15,760
Speaker 1: doors and there's probably a deer within two hundred yards

1667
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 1: of us right now, you know.

1668
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:21,600
Speaker 3: Anway, I appreciate you having me.

1669
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a true pleasure. I'm glad we finally connected

1670
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:27,120
Speaker 1: and it won't be the last time for real.

1671
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 3: I just right the road and I thought you were

1672
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 3: further away, all right, sure, Yeah, it's our fifteen minutes

1673
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 3: to your door from my door.

1674
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1675
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 3: Man.

1676
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:37,559
Speaker 1: Well, hey, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

1677
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:40,920
Speaker 2: Before we go, everybody needs to check out the Meat

1678
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 2: Eater store. We've got new Bear Grease merch.

1679
01:30:44,200 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 1: Hitting what kind of stuff do we have?

1680
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:49,920
Speaker 2: Hats, shirts, all kinds of stuff, So definitely check it out.

1681
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:53,720
Speaker 2: That'll be going live Monday before this podcast comes out.

1682
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:57,120
Speaker 1: New Bear Grease Merch yep, excellent

1683
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:01,200
Speaker 3: Fe