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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I know that. Hello everyone, and welcome Too Much Information,

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Speaker 2: the show that brings you the secret histories and little

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Speaker 2: known fascinating facts and figures behind your favorite TV shows, movies, music,

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Speaker 2: and more. We are your glue sniffers of gospel, you're

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Speaker 2: heavy hitters of Hey Ho, your superintendents of rock and

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Speaker 2: roll high school, your body savas of the blitz creen Bop.

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Speaker 2: Jordan wrote all of those. But my name is Alex Heigel.

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Speaker 1: And my name is Jordan Runs. It was okay, right,

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Speaker 1: I probably could have picked two and just gone with that.

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Speaker 2: But that's anytime you think of asking yourself for edit

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Speaker 2: advice for me, just keep that one in mind. Probably

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Speaker 2: could have just picked two, you, I say with love,

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, speaking of brevity, good good.

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Speaker 1: Very good. That's right. Today we are discussing one of

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Speaker 1: the most earth shattering debut albums in rock history nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six. Is Ramones by Ramones? Or is it the Ramones.

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Speaker 1: I've never really been sure. In case it's not abundantly clear,

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Speaker 1: I am not as steeped in the world of punk

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Speaker 1: as my dear friend Alex Heigel, and I will defer

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Speaker 1: to him on much of this, but I will say

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Speaker 1: I always got the sense that if Icky Pop and

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Speaker 1: the New York Dolls were the parents of punk, then

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Speaker 1: the Ramones were the screaming newborn infants, untamed and purely

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Speaker 1: driven by primal instinct. In a sense, I admire the rawness,

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Speaker 1: I admire the purity exactly, yes, exactly, But given my

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Speaker 1: penchant for melody and baroque style pop and studio experimentations,

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Speaker 1: this twenty nine minutes of Breakneck three Corps Juvenilia never

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Speaker 1: really was my jam. Although you think it would be.

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Speaker 1: Considering they took their name from Paul McCartney's pre Beatles

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Speaker 1: stage name, you think that would endear them to me,

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Speaker 1: but not really, not so much. It's similar to how

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Speaker 1: I feel about the Rolling Stones. I like the sounds

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Speaker 1: for a little bit, but then after a while all

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Speaker 1: their songs start to blend into one for me, and

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Speaker 1: I almost want to play, like a name that tune

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Speaker 1: style game with you and see how long it takes

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Speaker 1: me to identify different Ramones songs, kind of like that

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Speaker 1: Caleb Gammon video where he's trying to identify Jack Antonov's

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Speaker 1: production on the New Tailor Swift album.

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Speaker 2: Does the d D count off count?

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Speaker 1: Can you give make me a taste of those? It's really.

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Speaker 2: I don't even think he closes his mouth when he

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Speaker 2: does it.

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Speaker 1: What a cartoon of a human being. I never really

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Speaker 1: my knowledge of the Ramones is really not what it

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Speaker 1: should be, and it really wasn't until researching this episode

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Speaker 1: that I watched a fair number of interviews and performance

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Speaker 1: clips with the Stones and d D. What a gem

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Speaker 1: you said, Stones there? Yeah, well you take my meeting.

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Speaker 1: I want to put you in the hot seat right now.

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Speaker 1: Hi going This is probably an unfair question, but I

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Speaker 1: asked this with no judgments. It's your question. What is

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Speaker 1: it about the Ramones that appeals to you? I want

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Speaker 1: you to make a convert out of me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, much like David Lynch, I am not

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Speaker 2: a Ramones guy capital RG, but I really do love

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Speaker 2: them as a as a concept and foundational you know,

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Speaker 2: they are the load star of everything.

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Speaker 1: I mean, anytime some British.

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Speaker 2: Barney Hoskins or Nick Kent type wants to start making

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Speaker 2: the case for British music exceptionalisms, I say, sorry, punk

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Speaker 2: started in America. But getting away from that, I think

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Speaker 2: the Ramones are so fascinating because for all of the

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Speaker 2: high falute and v H one Rock and Roll Hall

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Speaker 2: of Fame white music journalists talking about how.

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Speaker 1: Punk was really about stripping things back to its essentials, and.

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Speaker 2: I think the Ramones fit that brief more than anybody,

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Speaker 2: because if you listen to I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 2: the first punk band was arguably Deaf out of Detroit.

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Speaker 2: So once again, you know, great documentary, once again stolen

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Speaker 2: from black people. But when you're talking about all of

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Speaker 2: the bands that are considered sort of the proto punks,

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Speaker 2: they are coming from such a kind of blues and

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Speaker 2: R and B steeped approach, like you know New York Dolls, Iggy,

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Speaker 2: I mean, Iggy was like a blues drummer, you know,

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Speaker 2: all those guys, and that they undergrown.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did the the Marvin Gaye song? What was the

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gaye song? They did? Hitchhike, I think. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: even with the.

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Speaker 2: Velvet Underground, the Velvet Underground are such an outlier for me,

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Speaker 2: because you know, they had so much others going on,

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Speaker 2: with all the La Monte Young influence and all the

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Speaker 2: weird kind of experimentalism and Warhol. But I mean of

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Speaker 2: some of the more foundational punk bands, and then once

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Speaker 2: you get into the sex Pistols, the sex Pistols are

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Speaker 2: a pub rock band. They have like a very loose

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Speaker 2: I mean that music, with the exception of Johnny Rotten,

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Speaker 2: is like two or three steps removed from like t

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Speaker 2: Rex boogie rock. You know, there I said it.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then the Class were obviously so musically like omnivorous

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Speaker 2: that their influences just kind of come from all over.

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Speaker 2: But when you're really talking about people who were like

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Speaker 2: what makes a good song, like a hook great, here's

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Speaker 2: hooks and nothing else, And like, you know, because I

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Speaker 2: really do think they have a great melodic sense, and

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Speaker 2: Joey has such a you know, he's got that sort

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Speaker 2: of little croon to his voice that just helps all

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Speaker 2: of that buzz sawing go down much easier. And so

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Speaker 2: I think they represent the purest distillation of punk as

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Speaker 2: an idea of going back to like fifties and sixties

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Speaker 2: rock and roll, you know. And and they're interesting too,

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Speaker 2: and just because like I'm a rhythm dorc and like

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the British bands were influenced

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Speaker 2: either by pub rock or with like the Class reggae

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Speaker 2: and again, even with like Stooges and stuff like, it's

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Speaker 2: still kind of like has that sort of bluesy swing.

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Speaker 2: But with the Ramones, it just it almost I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about it, it sounds like those Strokes records, like

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Speaker 2: the first Strokes records when they were trying to make

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Speaker 2: them sound like industrial like drum programming, because there's this

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Speaker 2: zero swing they played to a click. But if they

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Speaker 2: would have had a grid, I'm sure they would have

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Speaker 2: just squared it off to a grid too, you know,

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Speaker 2: all downstrokes on the guitar. Like it's just it's just

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Speaker 2: like a great, streamlined, well built series of cars, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then all and of course I'm just a sucker

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Speaker 2: for like the kind of sixties fun house vibe that

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Speaker 2: they were representing as well. So I mean, that's what

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Speaker 2: I really love about them, And I'm and you know,

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Speaker 2: I was kind of a Dilton. I didn't get into

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Speaker 2: them until I bought The Greatest Hits in high school

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Speaker 2: because I was just intimidated by the seventeen other albums.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, even their latter day stuff has some real bangers.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: My favorite song is probably pet Cemetery from the Stephen

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Speaker 2: King movie and Now of course I'm biased. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: I also think that that song has such a Joe's

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Speaker 2: voice sounds so good on that song, and there's such

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Speaker 2: a melancholy to the way that he was able, like

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Speaker 2: he was able to impart such a like sweet kind

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Speaker 2: of little boy lost attitude to all their stuff that

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Speaker 2: diffuses that like snarling obnoxiousness that comes from the rest

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I will say. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: talked about this part of my life on here, but

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Speaker 1: I for years was a DJ, like an old soul

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Speaker 1: R and B sixties girl group forty five's DJ around Brooklyn,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of my friends who also did that

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Speaker 1: with me, who you know, really love the kind of

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Speaker 1: Amy winehouse E behived sixties somewhere between greaser and maud

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Speaker 1: aesthetic and sound. Also really loved the Ramones, and I

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Speaker 1: never really saw the overlap because it just seemed like

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Speaker 1: two completely different eras, two completely different sonic worlds to me.

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Speaker 1: But then diving a little deeper for this episode, I

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Speaker 1: did see. I mean, first of all, that the Ramones

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Speaker 1: loved all that stuff, I mean the Shangri Laws and

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Speaker 1: beach Boys in the Stones and just all all my

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Speaker 1: favorite stuff British invasion and girl group stuff, and there

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Speaker 1: is so much of that. I mean, Judy is a

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Speaker 1: Punk is such a perfect pop song, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think I ever really paid much attention to that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was Jeff definitely a part of it was judging

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Speaker 1: a book by its cover.

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Speaker 2: But one other thing that I want to say that

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Speaker 2: is so that I think is so important with them

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Speaker 2: is that they are like the reason that I think

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Speaker 2: they fit so well in the CBGB's crowd is that,

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Speaker 2: with the exception of like the New York Dolls and

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Speaker 2: maybe some early blondie like, they were really not doing

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Speaker 2: anything that.

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Speaker 1: Was a rip off of the blues.

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Speaker 2: You know, New York Dolls arguably were, but like Johnny

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Speaker 2: Ramone was explicitly like, I will never take a blue solo,

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Speaker 2: even though his favorite guitarist was Jimmy Page, Like you

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Speaker 2: might get a one, four or five chord progression, and

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Speaker 2: you might get maybe some little bluesy bends in Joey's voice,

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Speaker 2: but like it is the first I think, like at

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Speaker 2: that point in the whatever twenty year history of rock

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Speaker 2: and roll, them and that CBGB's crowd were like the

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Speaker 2: first guys who were very conspicuously like not making stuff

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Speaker 2: that was just rip off with blues and R and

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Speaker 2: B hot take, maybe not that hot. I probably sold

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Speaker 2: it from somewhere. Tipid take, tipid take, tipid takes.

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Speaker 1: That's our new spinoff podcast, right, that's my show. Well,

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Speaker 1: despite my lack of appreciation and familiarity with Ramones, I

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Speaker 1: would never deny their impact. And I have to phrase

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Speaker 1: Brian ENO's oft quoted, possibly apocryphal comment about The Velvet Underground.

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Speaker 1: Though the debut didn't sell in huge quantities upon its release,

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Speaker 1: most who bought it formed a band, or at least

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Speaker 1: that's the popular legend. The Ramones made rock stardom accessible

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Speaker 1: to more than just a handful of virtuosos, and served

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Speaker 1: as an invitation for generations of kids to grab a

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Speaker 1: guitar and let it rip. And for me, who always

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Speaker 1: harbored dreams of playing in a band despite having only

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Speaker 1: a modicum of talent, I would like to offer them

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Speaker 1: a heartfelt thanks, and also to you, Heigel, for being

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Speaker 1: stupid enough to invite me into your band before you

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Speaker 1: ever heard me play. Hey, you earned it well. From

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Speaker 1: the insane stew of personalities that went into the band,

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Speaker 1: to all the ways in which they deliberately sought to

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Speaker 1: copy the Beatles while making music that caused most Beatles

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Speaker 1: fans like me to recoil to the threadbare circumstances of

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Speaker 1: the recording and releasing of a record that launched a

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Speaker 1: thousand metaphorical ships. Here's everything you didn't know about the

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Speaker 1: Ramones debut album.

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Speaker 2: Sweet Sweet Joey Ramone. Jeffrey Ross Hymen probably the best

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Speaker 2: place to start this episode, as the band's gangly, alien

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Speaker 2: proportioned frontman. Joey was six foot six and probably what

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Speaker 2: a buck twenty dripping wet oh yeah yeah, with like

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Speaker 2: hair down to his shoulders. He's up there in the

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Speaker 2: pantheon of iconic rock stances. I feel very comfortable saying that,

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Speaker 2: maybe not top five, but top ten certainly. Just that

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Speaker 2: one hand around the mic, other hand up in the air,

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Speaker 2: leaning forward at like a perpetual almost forty five degree angle.

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Speaker 2: What more do you want from a punk front man?

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Speaker 1: Perfect?

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Speaker 2: He was born on May nineteenth, nineteen fifty one, in Queens. Horrifyingly,

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Speaker 2: he was born with a I looked up the actual

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Speaker 2: medical name and then forgot to add this a partially

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Speaker 2: formed parasitic twin which wasn't full on like horror movie style,

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Speaker 2: but more like just like a big gross lump of

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Speaker 2: tissue with like teeth and hair growing out of his back,

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Speaker 2: which was later surgically removed and contributed to his health

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Speaker 2: problems all of his life, which I have to assume

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Speaker 2: I'm just speculating, but it might have been part of

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Speaker 2: his impetus for you know, some of the goofy side

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Speaker 2: show stuff and why the band adopted gabba gabba hay

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Speaker 2: from Todd Browning's indelible movie Freaks as they're on stage.

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Speaker 2: Chant kind of horrifying it is?

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Speaker 1: Is that problematic to say?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I sure hope, I sure hope they didn't

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Speaker 2: take pictures of it and show him.

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Speaker 1: Which wouldn't have been the most traumatic thing in his childhood.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 2: Joey had a relatively happy childhood, at least early on,

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Speaker 2: growing up in Forest Hill's Queens, although he was diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with O c D obsessive compulsive disorder, and schizophrenia as

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Speaker 2: a teen. His brother, Mickey lay who's lee whose book

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Speaker 2: is I Slept With Joey Ramon, said he's such a

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Speaker 2: great title.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for his brother to write, that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: He said, Joey heard voices that would force him to

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Speaker 2: repeat actions or or repeat other things. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of talk about later on in their career

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Speaker 2: when they were traveling that he would have to like

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Speaker 2: go back to the hotel and you know, check that

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Speaker 2: he'd done things in the correct way to enable him

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Speaker 2: to leave. And his mother, though divorced her first husband

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Speaker 2: and then her second husband, died in a car accident

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Speaker 2: while she was on vacation. So adding to that Dickenzian background,

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Speaker 2: Mickey Lee Wants recalled it was difficult growing up sharing

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Speaker 2: a room with someone turning lights on and off, running

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Speaker 2: the water in the bathroom for hours and hours, and.

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Speaker 1: Unable to throw things away. Despite launching a genre of

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Speaker 1: music that was supposedly in direct opposition to the previous decade,

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Speaker 1: Joey grew up loving pretty standard issue music for a

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Speaker 1: kid of his time. The Beatles, who David Bowie and

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Speaker 1: my beloved Phil Spector produced girl groups. Let me specify

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Speaker 1: the girl groups are my beloved Phil Spector not so much.

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Speaker 1: Joey started out as a drummer at the age of thirteen,

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Speaker 1: inspired by Keith Moon, which makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, Yeah, I mean he was a cartoon

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Speaker 2: character himself.

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Speaker 1: You know. And then eventually Joey got a hold of

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Speaker 1: an acoustic guitar. Just a few years later, and beginning

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, Joey played in a glam punk

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Speaker 1: band called Sniper, performing under the alias this is So

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Speaker 1: Good Jeff's Starship. I can only imagine his reaction when

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Speaker 1: the Jefferson Airplane changed their names to the Jefferson Starship.

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Speaker 2: Why did they do that?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean acid as a new Yeah? Was it because

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Speaker 2: Yorma left and Yorma and Jack left. Wasn't it just

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Speaker 2: Balen and old girl?

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Speaker 1: Think you right? Yeah? Should you call her old girl?

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Speaker 1: Ol girl?

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Speaker 2: It's a term of endearment, not big agist. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The band Sniper, Joey Ramone's early band played alongside Ramone

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Speaker 1: contemporaries like the New York Dolls and Suicide, but Joey

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Speaker 1: was replaced in the band in nineteen seventy four, supposedly

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Speaker 1: because he wasn't pretty.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, that's what Johnny I think originally

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Speaker 2: wanted for the Ramones. They wanted like a much prettier frontman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Probably my favorite Joey anecdote that I read in his

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Speaker 2: Rolling Stone Oh Bit was that he actually took his

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Speaker 2: singing very seriously. He studied with an opera singer. He

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Speaker 2: would do breathing exercises, and he used a vaporizer to

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Speaker 2: open up his vocal cords before every show. And this

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Speaker 2: backfired in November nineteen seventy seven, right before a show

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Speaker 2: at the Capitol Theater in Passaic, New Jersey, the vaporizer

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Speaker 2: blew up in his face and he was rushed to

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Speaker 2: the hospital for emergency treatment and then returned to do

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Speaker 2: the show. Yes Record, Yes Record. Producer Ed Stasium, who

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Speaker 2: I worked on some of their latter day stuff, said

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Speaker 2: he was on stage looking like Bob Dylan with burn

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Speaker 2: cream all over his face. The Rolling thunder look Joey

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Speaker 2: was a trooper. After the last encore, Joey was rushed

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Speaker 2: back to the hospital, this time to the New York Burns,

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Speaker 2: to the Burn Center, where he stayed for a week,

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Speaker 2: an experience that inspired him to write one of the

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Speaker 2: most beloved promone songs, I want to be Sedated.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Wow. Although that song has been

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Speaker 1: either ruined or improved, I can't tell which for me.

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Speaker 1: By the Nicket Knight bumper from the nineties when they

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Speaker 1: were promoting The Brady Bunch.

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Speaker 2: I want to be a Brady. I have not heard that, and.

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Speaker 1: Yes you did. We played I May I made you

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Speaker 1: listen to it when we did our Brady Bunch episode.

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Speaker 1: You clearly blocked it out, which I understand and appreciate. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to.

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Speaker 3: Be a Braid.

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Speaker 1: In the living room, ID cruise around in the brain whim.

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Speaker 1: I will not be pretty good medium funny. That's horrific.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it is. Here's a question for you, Heigel. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there's an easy answer to this or

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Speaker 1: a really easy answer to this. I'm not sure which

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Speaker 1: how much of punk is an offshoot of glam because

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Speaker 1: I'm I guess I'm really thinking of the New York

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Speaker 1: Dolls here specifically looking a lot like Roxy music or something.

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Speaker 1: The stripped down sound and the peacocked outfits that all

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Speaker 1: just sort of screams glam to me. Uh, and then

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Speaker 1: their obvious appreciation for melody and pop. I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: got the New York Dolls covering the Shangri Laws give

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Speaker 1: him a great, big Kiss, which is one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite sixties girl group songs. Yeah, I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 1: really sure.

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Speaker 2: I'm not super encyclopedic on the New York Dolls, but

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think when you're talking about glam, you're

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Speaker 2: talking about such a distinctly British thing that kind of

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Speaker 2: morph from the lineage of like Pentangle and all that

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Speaker 2: dance around the may pole into like electric music, because

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Speaker 2: like t Rex is all about like as a goofy

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Speaker 2: fantasy lyrics. David Bowie had done the Laughing Gnome and

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Speaker 2: all that other weird stuff. But New York Dolls, I mean,

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Speaker 2: David Johansson is an encyclopedia of early rock and roll

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Speaker 2: and blues songs. He's really like a very big student

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Speaker 2: of that stuff. And as far as there and Johnny Thunders,

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Speaker 2: I think was just a Chuck Berry freak. And then

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Speaker 2: as far as the as far as the look, I

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Speaker 2: think they just wanted to look like hookers.

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Speaker 1: I know. I mean, but I'm not trying to put

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Speaker 1: you on the spot, and I'm not trying to be difficult.

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Speaker 1: Why I want to know what that what?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't remember them from I yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I having said what I just said

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Speaker 2: about David Johanson. I would maybe venture a guess that

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Speaker 2: there's some kind of like vague inspiration from like someone

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Speaker 2: like Flip Wilson, or like the kind of history of

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Speaker 2: drag and comedy and as descending from like vaudeville and

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Speaker 2: like kind of you know, minstrel shows and in the

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Speaker 2: South where like early rock and roll actually got started.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not sure if it was actually that high falutin.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember much about their sections, and please kill me.

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Speaker 2: I was just so horrified by the litany of gutters

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Speaker 2: that Iggy Pop was dragging himself through and all the

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Speaker 2: Nazi that they were all into. That really pissed me

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Speaker 2: off anyway, speaking of that. The villain of our story,

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Speaker 2: inasmuch as it's possible, John William Cummings was born in

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Speaker 2: Queens in October eighth, nineteen forty eight, the only son

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Speaker 2: of Estelle, a Polish Ukrainian waitress, and Francis, an Irish steamfitter.

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Speaker 2: Johnny's dad was a strict disciplinarian. Johnny would later recall

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Speaker 2: how his father made him pitch in a little league

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Speaker 2: game the day after he'd broken his big toe, because

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Speaker 2: Francis himself had never called in sick on a day

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Speaker 2: of work. Johnny's teenage band was called the Tangerine Puppets,

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Speaker 2: named after a Donovan song, alongside the future remote drummer

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Speaker 2: Thomas Erdely. I don't know how to pronounce his name.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It's Tommy Ramone per Rolling Stone.

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Speaker 2: One time, when this high school band was playing Satisfaction

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Speaker 2: at a school function, Johnny Ramone noticed the student president

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Speaker 2: of their class standing in the wings and ran over

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Speaker 2: to him and hit him in the balls with his

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Speaker 2: guitar neck. Another time, Johnny got in a fight with

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Speaker 2: the band's lead singer while they were in the middle

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Speaker 2: of playing, beating him on stage until the other members

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Speaker 2: pulled him off. Tommy Ramone offered a great quote saying,

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Speaker 2: we all liked Johnny. That anger is pure. Johnny was

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Speaker 2: a genuine delinquent, though. One of his pastimes was hauling

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Speaker 2: up discarded TVs to the roofs of apartment buildings and

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Speaker 2: pushing them off onto the sidewalk as close as he

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Speaker 2: could to people walking or standing. He was he was

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Speaker 2: like just beating up people. He was I think actually

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Speaker 2: mugging people. A brief stint at a military academy in

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Speaker 2: Peaks kill, though failed to break his artistic spirit. And

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Speaker 2: he worked in a couple of odd jobs. Uh Like

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Speaker 2: he worked as a plumber alongside his dad. Uh and

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Speaker 2: he was also delivering dry cleaning, which is how he

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Speaker 2: met de d just.

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Speaker 1: Got to say it like Dexter Dexter's laboratory, nod.

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Speaker 2: Ded he's one of the only I mean, he's up

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Speaker 2: there with Sid right as one of the only mono

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Speaker 2: named punkers.

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Speaker 1: Debbie.

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Speaker 2: People just call her Blondie, right, or thought she was Blondie,

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Speaker 2: uh lou Iggy obviously probably not so much lou anyway.

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Speaker 2: Dede was the man's most the band's most prolific composer

390
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Speaker 2: and lyricist. He was born Douglas Glenn Colvin on September eighteenth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty one, in Fort Lee, Virginia, to an American

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Speaker 2: soldier and a German woman. Dede once referred to his

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Speaker 2: mom as a drunken nut job, so maybe that was

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Speaker 2: her other occupation. As an infant, his family relocated to

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Speaker 2: West Berlin due to his father's military service, and because

396
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Speaker 2: of said military career, they were moving around a lot

397
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Speaker 2: and did He had a lonely childhood with very few

398
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Speaker 2: real friends. His parents separated during his early teens, and

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Speaker 2: he remained in Berlin until the age of fifteen, but

400
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Speaker 2: then he his mom and sister moved to Forest Hills

401
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Speaker 2: to basically get away from their dad, who I believe

402
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Speaker 2: was a real abusive garbage person.

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Speaker 1: I imagine that that was probably the basis of a

404
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Speaker 1: lot of trauma for Deed that was to come in

405
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Speaker 1: his life. He did not have an easy life.

406
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I glommed over a lot of the

407
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Speaker 2: stuff that kind of led up to that. I mean,

408
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 2: he was like hitchhiking across the country and picking up

409
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: a drug problem in LA. That's where he first became

410
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: a male hustler and just was pretty constantly out of

411
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Speaker 2: his head on one thing or another. But great presence. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and had one of the most poignant epitaphs and all

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Speaker 2: of you, all of punk rock.

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Speaker 1: His headstone just reads, hey, I gotta go now. I

415
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Speaker 1: paid my respects to him last time I was in

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Speaker 1: LA and uh slightly less respect to Johnny.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: Well. He bonded with Johnny on their dry cleaning delivery

419
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Speaker 2: job over a mutual love of proto punk touchstones like

420
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Speaker 2: the Stooges and the MC five. I forgot to mention

421
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 2: the MC five earlier man so much early punk came

422
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Speaker 2: out of Detroit. One day, the pair of them made

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Speaker 2: the trek to Manny's Music in Manhattan, where Johnny picked

424
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Speaker 2: up a blue Ventures Model moles right and d D

425
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Speaker 2: snagged a Dan Electro bass, which he later smashed and

426
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 2: eventually adopted one of the one of the one of

427
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Speaker 2: the more notable.

428
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Speaker 1: P bassers in punk.

429
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Speaker 2: But all of these kind of hold a candle to

430
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: the genuine, actual familial trauma of Tommy Ramone. Born in

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00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: January nineteen forty nine in Budapest, his Jewish parents narrowly

432
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: escaped the Holocaust. They were hidden by their neighbors, but

433
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: many of his relatives were killed by the Nazis. Then,

434
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty seven they fled the Hungarian Revolution, emigrating

435
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: to the South Bronx before upgrading to Forest Hills.

436
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: Tommy was a guitar player.

437
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: At first, he played guitar the aforementioned Tangerine Puppets and

438
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: then left high school. I don't know that he actually

439
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: graduated and got a job at the record plant, where,

440
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: among many other things, he worked on records from Mountain.

441
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: John McLaughlan Herbie Hancock, and he was an assistant engineer

442
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: Jimmy Hendrix's band of Gypsy's album where he has a

443
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 2: really adorable anecdote of Jimmy asking him if he thought

444
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: Leslie West of Mountain was a better guitar player than him,

445
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: and Tommy to tape off. For a second, I thought

446
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: he was kidding, but then I realized it was a

447
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: serious question, I said, of course not.

448
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: Oh. Jimmy then celebrated this psychic victory by dropping six

449
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: tabs of blotterer acids, snorting two speedballs, and railing a

450
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: Danish model. That's a real nice thing you said about me,

451
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: Tommy Ramon dig didn't. Doesn't he have like a history

452
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: of like genuinely believing that kind of obviously not as

453
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: good guitarists are better than him, like Terry cath from

454
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: Chicago he believed was a better guitarist. Terry, I mean,

455
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 1: he does, but it's not Jimmy Hendrix. And then what's

456
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: his name from Zez Top Billy Yeah, Billy Gibbons. Yeah.

457
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: I feel like everybody in the world has this guitar

458
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: player who is better than me, said I was his

459
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: favorite player, wasn't Robbie Robertson, didn't he say? Dwayne Allman

460
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: said he was his favorite guitar player or something.

461
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: I think clapped and said that, ah whatever.

462
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: Four days after that visit to Manny, Johnny and Dede

463
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: held their first rehearsal, writing two songs on the very

464
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: first day they were a band, Johnny told Rolling Stone.

465
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: One was called I Don't want to walk Around with You,

466
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 2: and the other was called I Don't want to get

467
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: involved with you. He said it was very much like

468
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: I Don't want to walk around with you, almost the

469
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: same song.

470
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: You know, a very ungenerous read of the ramones is

471
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: kind of the whole God, give me the confidence of

472
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: a mediocre what thing? You're not wrong? You're not wrong.

473
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 2: Walter, Dede and Johnny asked Joey to join them in

474
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: a band. Deede initially wanted to play guitar and sing well,

475
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: Johnny was going to play guitar, and Joey was drumming.

476
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: I think they probably just knew him from around the

477
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: way in Forest Hills. Presumably they caught a couple of

478
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 2: gigs by sniper. They invited a guy named Richie Stern

479
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: to join them on bass, but his lack of talent

480
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: quickly necessitated that Dede switched to bass, leaving Johnny as

481
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: their only guitarist, and it was around this time that

482
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: d D came up with the name Remote, inspired by

483
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney's use of the pseudonym Paul Ramone during his

484
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: Silver Beatles days. Jordan, what were the others.

485
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: Let's see, George was Carl Harrison, which is the worst

486
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: stage name I've ever heard, named himself after Carl Perkins.

487
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: Of course he did. The bass player at the time

488
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: was Stuart Suckcliffe. He was an artist. He famously got

489
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: his money to buy a bass from selling a painting

490
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: that he did at art school. Uh So he named

491
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: himself Stuart de Stall after a painter named Dastall whose

492
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: first name escapes me. Some abstract impressionist painter.

493
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: Uh.

494
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: And then John was just uh long John, as in

495
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: Long John and the Silver Beatles or Long John, Silver

496
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: Parable and the Beatles. Their name really in those in

497
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: those years was was a pirateist awful stuff?

498
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: Uh did he convince the others that they should be

499
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: the name of their group and their pseudonyms as well.

500
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: Tommy was older than the rest of them. He was

501
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 2: Johnny's power from their high school band. But you know,

502
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: obviously it already had some I think he was like

503
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: a year or two older. He'd obviously had professional experience already,

504
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: and he basically just kind of came in to like

505
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: manage them and sort of like watch over their shoulder

506
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 2: and stuff. And what what happened was that DEDI realized

507
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: he couldn't play bass and sing at the same time,

508
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: which happens to the best of us. Can you the

509
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: few times I had to play in World's Greatest playing bass,

510
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: I really dumbed everything down. I can sort of get

511
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: away with it like punk style, but not like Geddy Lee.

512
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: When did you have to play? Because I was I

513
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: was the bassist the World's Greatest, the tective. I know

514
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: you were.

515
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: We had to do probably one show before you. In

516
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: one during we were playing Footlight, probably our worst day

517
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 2: because everybody else had been at the beach and they

518
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: all showed up wasted, and I was playing bass and singing,

519
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: so not a great performance. Joey was tapped as singer,

520
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: and then he realized he couldn't drum and singing at

521
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: the same time, and so they started the process of

522
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: auditioning a new drummer. And basically, even though Tommy was

523
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: not actually a drummer, he would spend so much time

524
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: during these audition processes that he had to just like

525
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: getting up and going. They basically said that everyone was

526
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: playing too much because this was sort of the heavy

527
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: metal phase. So I imagine that they were getting a

528
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: lot of want to be John Bottoms and and and

529
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: Bill Woards and just coming in and playing too many fills,

530
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 2: and Tommy just spent so much time getting on the

531
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,239
Speaker 2: kit just going no. It's just that they were like,

532
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: why don't you just do that for real and for always?

533
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: And he did, oh no for like five years. Yeah,

534
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: he's really fascinating. He's such a quiet He's like the

535
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: Garth Hudson of this band, like the quiet genius who

536
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: like spent so much time kind of behying the scenes

537
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: and stuff. And when you watch him play, you know,

538
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: he plays so delicately. That's why I thought the Strokes thing,

539
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: because it's just like this quiet, almost drum machine like

540
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: sort of pulse under. He doesn't play like, you know,

541
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: like a Keith Moon guy or or I'm trying to

542
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: think of other like proto punk drummers, like I don't know,

543
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: freakin Stuart Copeland in one of those chuds somebody.

544
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: With their whole body.

545
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just he's just like I'm gonna be I mean,

546
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it was just being like,

547
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: these are so fast I have to put so I

548
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: cannot bash away at this uh DEDI would, however, remain

549
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: grandfathered into the position of counting off all the songs live,

550
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: and I have always wondered if they simply all knew

551
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: the tempos already and just were like, Okay, this is

552
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: how fast the song goes. Because he there's no way

553
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: he's actually counting off the tempos of those songs.

554
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: I almost wonder if he didn't even if if that

555
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: was just to signal that the song was beginning. I

556
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: didn't even it didn even occur that that was access

557
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: supposed to serve a function, right.

558
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: The band's nascent sound at this point was reminiscent of

559
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: the fifties and early sixties bands that they'd all grown

560
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: up with, but with all of the possible frills shaved off. Johnny,

561
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: I love this so much. Johnny at some point committed

562
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: to only playing downstroke.

563
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: Now. Is that for ease or did he just like

564
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: how he sounded?

565
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: No? I in my experience, it actually is a more mechanic,

566
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: reliable sound, and it also helps give kind of forward

567
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: propulsion because if you're playing your sort of conventional alternate picking,

568
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: the tendency that I found at least is to almost

569
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: make it swing a little bit anymore because they're uneven. Right,

570
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: You have a generally speaking, you have a harder downstroke

571
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: and then a softer up stroke, and that can give

572
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: this give your even if you're playing eighth notes, it's

573
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: still going to give it some level of unevenness that's

574
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: going to suggest a swing or a pulse, whereas if

575
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: you want something that is just a jackhammer, you want downstrokes.

576
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: And Johnny I love this. Johnny learned perfected this by

577
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: playing along with led Zeppelin's communication breakdown, which is like

578
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: often thought of as kind of the er text for

579
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: like hardcore punk. That just playing that over and over

580
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: and over again with only downstrokes.

581
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: That makes so much sense. Wow. The band's producer at

582
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: the time, a guy named Craig Leon, gave a really

583
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: illuminating quote to the Guardian about the band's sound in

584
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. He said they were returned to streamlined minimal

585
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: rock with a strong pop element. They liked Herman's Hermits

586
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: and the Bay City Rollers as much as the Stooges

587
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: that were also very influenced by comic books and pop culture.

588
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: Remember Superman in the bizarro world, where everyone was the

589
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: antithesis of their earth like counterparts. The Ramones were the

590
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: bizarro world beatles. That's so perfect, uh. CBG's associate colleague

591
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: Richard Hall said in the same article, Tommy was the conceptualist,

592
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: adding that d d auditioned for the band he was

593
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: playing in television because they quote needed someone who could

594
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: play a sequel. He continued, Dede wrote outrageous, timeless compositions.

595
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: Johnny came up with that driving, monotonous guitar, and Joey

596
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: had the sweet voice and that whole mutant vibe, and

597
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: Sire Records had seymour Stein, the guy would end up

598
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: signing the band. To put it a little more succinctly

599
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: to New York Times, Joey was so sweet, the songs

600
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: he wrote were so tender. Dedi was Dee Dee, Tommy

601
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: was the brains, and Johnny was the Paul McCartney of

602
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: the group. He was the one that held the band together.

603
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: But I would also like to add he also crushed

604
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: Joey's heart when he got with his girlfriend Linda, which

605
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: I forget if we'll talk about later.

606
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: Will Johnny was a real piece OF's just that's not

607
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: min's there. I'm sorry he was.

608
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: And he also kicked Marky Ramone out of the band

609
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 1: when he had a drinking problem, if I believe he did.

610
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Johnny was a lifetime teetotaler, uh when

611
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 2: not a druggie. His choice. His drug of choice was violence.

612
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 1: How'd he die? Cancer? Uh? Mad?

613
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: Cancer? Like it spread to like everything by the end.

614
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: I think he was like one of your more standard

615
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: is shoe cancers. And then they there's literally a quote

616
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: in like this Rolling Stone article that was like months

617
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: later he was informed by doctors that the cancer had

618
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 2: spread to his lungs, stomach, bones and blood or.

619
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: Like what it was just like Jesus Christ. Yeah, did

620
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: he recounted in his autobiography Poison Heart. I think Joey wrote,

621
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: like me, I don't think he knew anything about guitar

622
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: chors or the verse of the chorus and intro. Somehow

623
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: he just banged out these songs on two strings of

624
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: a Yamaha acoustic guitar, and then Johnny Ramone would struggle

625
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: his best to interpret it. Johnny would show the bass

626
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: parts to my own songs because I had no idea

627
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: how they went. Tommy Ramone wrote I Want to be

628
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: your boyfriend, and we could have made a million dollars

629
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: on it because the Base City Rollers wanted to do it.

630
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: That's amazing. See, I find that really impressive people who

631
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 1: can't really play an instrument but can just write songs

632
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: and need to have something like That's what Jim Morrison

633
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: used to do. He would just like kind of sit

634
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: and tap his foot and start kind of free associating

635
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: with his verses and kind of find a melody. I

636
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: find that harder than sitting down and finding chord structures

637
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: and then working out something that would go along with it.

638
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: That's really impressive to me.

639
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, Jim Morrison, I know, may

640
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: have been a CIA plant.

641
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: And yeah, his dad started the Vietnam War, Sure did,

642
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: Sure did.

643
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: And this book I'm reading The Weird Weird Dream, Weird

644
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: Echoes in the Canyon or whatever.

645
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great book.

646
00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 2: It's incredible Daya Allen Yep, incredible book and really actually

647
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 2: aside from sort of the obvious thing, which is like, yes,

648
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: the entirety of Laurel Canyon was all of those luminaries,

649
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: with like basically the exception of Neil Young, everyone was

650
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: descended from military family in many cases people who were

651
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: still working in the military, and also there was a

652
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: giant military research facility.

653
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: In Laurel Canyon.

654
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 2: But that guy made the very interesting point that all

655
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: of these bands, and I'll get back to this with

656
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: Jim Morrison, he was like, isn't it astounding how all

657
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: of these bands came out with all of this iconic

658
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: material within like two months of becoming bands and then

659
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: never ascended to those same ranks again, almost as if

660
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: there was no reason for them to continue once their

661
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: work had been done. So yeah, I mean everything that

662
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: anyone says about Jim Morrison actually composing anything must be

663
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: taken with a grain of salt.

664
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, I'd like to add, So, his dad

665
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: was a rear admiral in the Navy, and the Vietnam

666
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: Wars was generally said to have begun after the Gulf

667
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: of Tonkin incident in mid nineteen sixty five, which involved

668
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: the ship that Jim Morrison's dad was in command of

669
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: getting in some kind.

670
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: Of allegedly it was fired upon, which is like an

671
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 2: in just and yeah, I don't think they were able

672
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: to ever find any actual documentation of it. It was

673
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: positive as a false flag that may have not even

674
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: had the benefit of having a flag, may have just

675
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: been a bold face lie to the American public. And that, folks,

676
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: is why punk is better, because it was made by

677
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 2: a bunch of gross misfits from Queen's not the sons

678
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: of the American aristocracy.

679
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: So wait, I just really spell it out for me,

680
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: like I'm a five year old gone You said that

681
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: these bands never match the heights that they reached like

682
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: two months after forming, almost as if they never needed to.

683
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: Why would that be, Or that their songs weren't actually

684
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: written by them. I mean that's the other thing, Like

685
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: obviously the Birds didn't do anything except for singing on

686
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: their debut records, and the most these bands were supposedly

687
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: us astonishingly terrible live, So that beggars the question, like, well,

688
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: if you were so bad live and you never you know,

689
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: weren't able to sustain a career for longer than four years,

690
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: how did you write all of those supposedly iconic and

691
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: immortal songs without having any demonstratable talent.

692
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: You know what would I'm sorry. I love this stuff

693
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: so much, and I read this book years ago. I

694
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: thought I was the one who sent it to you.

695
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: I guess I didn't. I believe you recommended it to me,

696
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, Dave, Dave mcgallan, it's incredible. What was the

697
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: purpose of this CIA, the social engineering experiment.

698
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: The overarching and supposed theory which is positive by this

699
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 2: is that if we're to believe that the entire Summer

700
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: of Love was a psyop, it was that the government

701
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: ministers of culture, whoever's actually pulling all the levers and

702
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: what have you, were genuinely alarmed at some of the

703
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: more radical fringes of the American left, like stuff was

704
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: happening specifically in Berkeley, stuff that was happening with like

705
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: in Detroit with the White Panthers.

706
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: And Mario Salvo, stuff like the Bodies on the Gears production.

707
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: Berkeley, and and so the concluded that one of the

708
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: easiest ways to sabotage that would be by creating a

709
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: mostly milk toast politics free youth movement that would be uh,

710
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: shall we say burdened by copious drug use, and you know,

711
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: the idea then being that these genuine radicals were actually

712
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: quite irritated when the hippies started showing up and just

713
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: talking about love and how love will end you know, everything,

714
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: and that if you just send all the you know,

715
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: psychic parts of the love into the universe, that'll end

716
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: of the war and all of these like genuine you know,

717
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: freaks and yippies and people were being like, no, we

718
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: have to set fire to things like no.

719
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: We're going to elevate the Pentagon. We're all going to

720
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: join hands around the Pentagon, and it kind of levitate it,

721
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: and you.

722
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: Know, it's it can get a little tinfoily at some point,

723
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: but it is really astonishing once you realize like the

724
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: I mean you have like Van Cortland's, like David Crosby

725
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: is a member of the Van Cortland family. You know, yeah,

726
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: I don't know, interesting theory. I would probably believe it.

727
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: At this point.

728
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 2: I mean, it certainly worked, right, like because the other

729
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: thing that's interesting to me about it is how if

730
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 2: you do subscribe to that theory of the American culture shift,

731
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: it's also sort of dovetails with the weakening of labor

732
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: in America, you know, the sort of hoffa post war

733
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: eras generally thought of the peak of like American labor

734
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: power by people who are much more versed in that

735
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: kind of thing than I was. And that really started

736
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: to dry up almost immediately after Halfa died. And a

737
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: lot of that was, of course the Fed's coming in.

738
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: But it disappeared, we should say, yes.

739
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of it was, you know, due to

740
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: all kinds of federal pressure and the FBI and everything.

741
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is very interesting how all of the

742
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: genuinely threatening people were killed or destabilized, and all of

743
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: these supposed radical figures of pop culture like somehow missed

744
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 2: getting popped by the DEA for anything ever, you know,

745
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: like why did David Crosby never serve any significant time

746
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: in jail when for all of his various drug offenses

747
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: and at the peak of the time, and Rocky Erickson

748
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 2: got institutionalized for thirteen years for a joint like like that.

749
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: You know, this sort of general thing is if all

750
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: of these scions of American you know, power were making

751
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: music and at the forefront of a culture that posed

752
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: any real actual threat, why weren't they investigated why weren't

753
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: they like, why how did they operate do this with

754
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: supposed impunity? Is it because the music was genuinely pretty

755
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 2: milk toast and not actually threatening. Yes, like what I

756
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: had talked to Buffy Saint Marie, she talked about how

757
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: she actually saw her FBI file like at one point,

758
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: and like, you know, I'm sure there was none on

759
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: like like everyone talks about, Oh, for what it's worth,

760
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: like Buffalo Springfield, like the great American protest song, not

761
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 2: actually a protest song, you know.

762
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: It's about the nightclub closing. Yeah, Pandora's Box on the

763
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: Sunset Strip and the kids were pissed that they was

764
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: closing and they weren't allowed to stay out late. There

765
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: was a curfew. I mean that was what that That

766
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: was what they were protesting about.

767
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's all very interesting. That's a wonderful, useless

768
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: diversion to the point of this episode.

769
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: Well, no, I mean punk dissatisfaction. I think it's all.

770
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: It's all related. Have you read Chaos by Tom O'Neill,

771
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: the book about Charles Manson supposedly being uh having some

772
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: connections to the CIA. Is probably the briefest way to

773
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: put it.

774
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, I mean that's all very interesting. Well, because

775
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 2: there's there's two real wings for that. There's there's one

776
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: if you want to talk about Like as with any syop,

777
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 2: there's many good there's many angle to come in at it,

778
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: Like one the Weird Dreams of the Canyon book is great

779
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: for the kind of social engineering aspect. But then if

780
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: you want to dive even deeper into the MK ultra stuff,

781
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: you know, there's whole books that have been written on that.

782
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people talking about how any Jacobson,

783
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: about how people might have you know, Lee, Harvey Oswald was,

784
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: Charles Manson were possibly Yeah, it's it's very interesting stuff.

785
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if I know where you're going.

786
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: With that, that both of them might have been handled

787
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: by the MK Ultra apparatus.

788
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that makes sense actually.

789
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, because Oswald was stationed somewhere where they were doing

790
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: his his early when he was stationed at a fort

791
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: where they were doing that kind of stuff.

792
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 1: Anyway, well, from CIA main Control, yeah, and Charles Manson

793
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: to the Bay City rollers. That is the TMI promise

794
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: right there. In one move. Danny Fields, the ramones Co manager,

795
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: told the New York times. The Ramones loved the Bay

796
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 1: City Rollers. Dede's favorite band was Abba. They were trying

797
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: to be Abba. They were trying to have an album

798
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: that would sell six million copies so they could retire

799
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: for life. Now you hear all these interviews with the

800
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: band later on, you really see how they were pretty

801
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: naked in their attempt at you know, we want to hit,

802
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: we want something that's going to sell, and they never

803
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: really got that. I mean, they made I would say

804
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: conservatively seventy percent of their income on like T shirt sales.

805
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: It was probably more tilted towards live performances because I

806
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: think Arturo Vega held the T shirt design and you

807
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: get more points if you're if he negotiated it well.

808
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: But yes, merch sales for sure. It's like Glenn Danzig

809
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 2: makes you know, he's kept afloat by misfit stuff even

810
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: though we stole all.

811
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: Of it, like you know.

812
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, by the time that their errors,

813
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: the Johnny and Joey estates sell their beef, which I

814
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: think happened recently. They they sold the publishing rights for

815
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: ten mili each, so they were probably doing okay, it's

816
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: it's it is astounding to me the number of people

817
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: who in this from this era who genuinely got into

818
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: music out of wanting to avoid a real job. It's

819
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure in that inn, please kill Me, it's

820
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 2: where Iggy Pop talks about going to Chicago and hanging

821
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: out with like really foundational blues guys, and he was like,

822
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: they were not taking this music seriously at all. They

823
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: were drunk and this was better than working for them.

824
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: Like it's just so like I enjoy that refreshing candor

825
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: as opposed to like, yeah, you know your bonos or

826
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: your jack whites about like.

827
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 1: Well, your music can change the world. It's an element

828
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: event for social change.

829
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: Like yeah, it's fun, but you know it used to

830
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: be a good way to make money. As you meditate

831
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: on that, we'll be right back with more too much

832
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: information after these messages.

833
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: What was I talking about? Dynamics?

834
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yes, So the dynamic within the band, though

835
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: didn't exactly fit into the Beatles mold or Abba. Your

836
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: front man Joey was the shy, sweet guy. Your guitarist

837
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,479
Speaker 2: Johnny was the jerk, the task master of the band

838
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: that kept them in shape with rehearsals and physical, emotional

839
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: and vocal abuse. That is not an exaggeration, by the way,

840
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: I'm not slandering him. Tommy the sort of big picture

841
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: guy overseeing image and industry positioning, and Dedi the wild card,

842
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: the cat. That's my favorite running. The only thing Kiss

843
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: has ever given me is referring to the fourth person

844
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 2: in any group before as the cat. Yeah, Dede would

845
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 2: write twenty songs for every one of the others turned

846
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 2: in while maintaining as powerful of a buzz as he could.

847
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: Tina Weymouth of the Talking Heads were called to The

848
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 2: Guardian one at one show in France, the two bands

849
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: were booked to play together and the show fell apart

850
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: because the ramones amps overloaded the town's power grid. This

851
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: was in Marseille, and she said, they came back to

852
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: the hotel where we had these packets of dry cleaning

853
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 2: spot remover. Dee Dee poured the contents into a handkerchief

854
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: and proceeded to sniff it like it was something delicious.

855
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: We were appalled. I said, don't you know it's destroying

856
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 2: your brain cells? He said, I know, but I just

857
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: got to get high. And then her immediate PostScript to

858
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: that is Joey was deeper. He used to do these

859
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: giant paintings of vegetables.

860
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: I just love that.

861
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: As a non sequitor, that's a.

862
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: Real spinal tap. Oh yeah right.

863
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: Probably the best known example of the rift between the

864
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 2: two principal Ramones is the fact that one of their

865
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: best known songs, the KKK Took My Baby Away, was

866
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: written by Joey after his childhood's sweetheart Linda left him

867
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: for Johnny.

868
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 1: They were on.

869
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 2: Different ends of the political spectrum, you know. And one

870
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: big thing in this band was after Reagan went to

871
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 2: visit Berlin, and Joey wrote a song called Bonzo Goes

872
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: to Bitberg because you will perhaps remember that Ronald Reagan

873
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: started in bedtime for Bonzo alongside Incredible, alongside a chimp,

874
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: and Joey was very incensed by this. He was a

875
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: lifelong Republican whose only quote at the band's Rock and

876
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: Roll Hall of Fame induction was God bless the USA

877
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: and God blessed George W.

878
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: Bush.

879
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: So they were already at odds there. But then yeah,

880
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 2: Joey lost his childhood sweetheart to Johnny. To their credit,

881
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: Johnny and Linda remained married until Johnny's death in two

882
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: thousand and four. Johnny did not oh the though he

883
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: outlived him. Johnny did not attend Joey's funeral, which was

884
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, saying I wouldn't him coming

885
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 2: to mine. Danny Fields, who managed the band from seventy

886
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 2: five to eighty, told Rolling Stone. In order of monsterliness,

887
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: Dede was first, a genius poet and charming, which is

888
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: how he got away with his disastrous alcoholic fibbing. Joey

889
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 2: was second, and Johnny was third. He had to whip

890
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 2: four very difficult people, including himself, into shape to make

891
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: enough money for all of them to retire. That, said

892
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: Marky would write in his autobiography Punk Rock Blitzkrieg. We

893
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: could often hear john pushing and smacking Roxy, his then

894
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: girlfriend around in their hotel room. We would hear her stumbling,

895
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: bouncing off a thin wall and then falling onto a

896
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: bed and shrieking. Danny Fields told Mojo Dede was terrified

897
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: of Johnny because Johnny would punch him in the face.

898
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 2: It would always be after the show about something like

899
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: you did a B major when you should have done

900
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: a C minor. I'd stand outside the dressing room. Inside

901
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: you'd hear glass shattering and bodies slamming into walls.

902
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: Guy's like Joe Jackson. I know. Yeah.

903
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: The band's look, which were the leather jackets from the

904
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 2: New York City based manufacturer shot ripped, blue jeans, Converse

905
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 2: or Keds, sneakers, and T shirts, was a little more

906
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: calculated than it came off, though, Johnny wrote in his

907
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: autobiography Commando, I give Tommy a lot of credit for

908
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: our look. He explained to me that Middle America wasn't

909
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 2: going to look good and glitter. Glitter is fine if

910
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: you're the perfect size for clothes like that, but if

911
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: you're even five pounds overweight, it looks ridiculous. So it

912
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: wouldn't be something everyone could relate to. It was a

913
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 2: slow process over a period of six months or so,

914
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 2: but we got the uniform defined. We figured out it

915
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 2: would be jeans, T shirts, leather jackets, and the tennis

916
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 2: shoes Keds. We wanted every kid to be able to

917
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: identify with our image. That's like shockingly astute I'm saying.

918
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: I'm saying Tommy is a legitimately smart, very musical guy.

919
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: One of the thing that's very interesting that he said

920
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 2: to Rolling Stone at one point was we used block

921
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: cording as a melodic device, and the harmonics resulting from

922
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 2: the distortion of the amplifiers created counter melodies. We use

923
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 2: the wall of sound as a melodic rather than a

924
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: rift form. It was like a song within a song

925
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 2: created by a block of chords droning. And that's very

926
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: interesting because you know, quick diversion into my dummy understanding,

927
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: was that wonkery?

928
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

929
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 2: So in every note, in every tone pitch, you have

930
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: what's called the fundamental and then the overtone series. The

931
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: fundamental is typically what you can hear and match as

932
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: the sound the pitch, you know, uh, that's whatever. But

933
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: the way that frequencies work is that there are actually

934
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 2: many other pitches occurring in relation to that tone. You

935
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 2: can hear this on a piano according to the mathematic

936
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: relationships that are caused by the actual frequencies in terms

937
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 2: of hurts that are occurring. So you can hear us

938
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,439
Speaker 2: on a piano if you you know, hit a bunch

939
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: of c's or different chords and leave the sustained note on,

940
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 2: you can actually sometimes identify the upper harmonics of it ringing.

941
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: And this phenomenon is only amplified pun intended by extremely

942
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 2: loud instruments. And when people talk about listening to really

943
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: high volume music and quote hearing things that aren't really there,

944
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: what they're talking about is how you can suddenly start

945
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: hearing all of these harmonics and upper frequencies of the

946
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: music that aren't actually present in what you immediately identify

947
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: as the sound, right, And it's when you're stacking certain

948
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: intervals that's only compounded. So when you're playing power chords

949
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 2: which are just a root fifth and octave, and then

950
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: the bass is doubling that under all at extremely high volume,

951
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 2: you're getting all of those because the harmonic series moves

952
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 2: in fits is the other thing generally, so that's how

953
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: the overtone series works. So you're basically recreating with every

954
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 2: harmonic chord movement a series of these stacked fits, and

955
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: it makes the music sound much bigger than it in

956
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: theory actually is if you were just looking at the

957
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,919
Speaker 2: notes on staff paper, does that make sense?

958
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's interesting to me that it just

959
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 1: sounds like a lot of things are getting doubled as

960
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: opposed to just makes it sound thicker in its sense.

961
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: Then yeah, that's really fascinating. Wow. Yeah, and it's interesting.

962
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 2: I'm sure he got some of that from Hendrix, because

963
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: that was part of the reason why Hendrix insisted on

964
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: playing everything as loudly as possible at all times. So

965
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who are like, oh, yeah,

966
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: he would have been deaf within five years, because even

967
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: when he was listening to playback of stuff in Electric

968
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 2: Ladies Land or these different studios, he was listening to

969
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 2: it like blasting out of the monitors, because that is

970
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 2: when you start to hear all of this stuff. I mean,

971
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 2: it's always That's why people, that's why music sounds better

972
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 2: loud like you're getting not only the harmonic distortion from

973
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 2: like a speaker from whatever speaker and sound reproduction you're

974
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: actually getting like a tube amp or whatever. But the

975
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 2: harmonics are interacting in ways that we can't really put

976
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 2: a finger on, but still sound better and richer to us.

977
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: This has been Heigel's theory corner.

978
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: So from the high Lutin concept of Lydian chromatic and

979
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 2: harmonic theory all the way down to the smeared floors

980
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 2: of the Bowery. Of all the band linked with the

981
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 2: legendary Bowery Dive bar, CBGB's the Ramones are probably the

982
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: most fitting with the bar's distinct birthplace of punk brand.

983
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 2: Tommy approached me and said, I heard you found this

984
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 2: place to play. What's the story, that's Blondie guitarist Chris

985
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 2: Stein to The Guardian, So we told them about CBGB.

986
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 2: I like to think I was part of them winding

987
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 2: up there. The band started playing live by mid nineteen

988
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 2: seventy four, and club owner Hilly Crystal provided an inadvertent

989
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: slogan for the entire genre of punk rock when he

990
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 2: remarked to the band after their very first time at

991
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 2: CBGB's in August of seventy four, no one is going.

992
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: To like you, but I'll have you back. It's beautiful.

993
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,479
Speaker 1: We all need a friend like that.

994
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: Joey has a distinct memory of entering CBGB's for the

995
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 2: first time and noticing the floor was covered with sawdust

996
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: and dogs. He says in the band's End of the

997
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: Century doc it was like a minefield. Hilly would later write,

998
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 2: they were the most untogether band I'd ever heard. They

999
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 2: kept starting and stopping, equipment, breaking down, and yelling at

1000
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: each other. They'd played for forty minutes, and twenty of

1001
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 2: them would just be the band yelling at each other.

1002
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 2: Lakes McNeil, who wrote the aforementioned early punk tomb Please

1003
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: Kill Me, felt that they looked like the SS when

1004
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 2: they walked in with the leather jackets. These guys were

1005
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: not hippies, and of those early performances, he added, you

1006
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 2: were hit with this blast of noise. You physically recoiled

1007
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 2: from the shock of it like a huge wind. In

1008
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: the summer of nineteen seventy five, CBGB's held their own

1009
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 2: rock festival including Blondie, which was covered by Rolling Stone,

1010
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 2: and from that point the scene started to change. The

1011
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 2: heyday was basically two years. Yeah, you have had a

1012
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: point about this early era of CBGB's that also includes

1013
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 2: Talking Heads, television Suicide.

1014
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's interesting to me how different all

1015
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: the bands were. It really wasn't a lot of overlap

1016
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: and sounds, So I wonder if that lack of competition

1017
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: helped contribute to the sense of conaderie because they were

1018
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 1: all very much doing their own thing. Patty Smith.

1019
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, it's because there was no

1020
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: monoculture around it at the time, and everybody was sort

1021
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: of taking all of the different aspects of what made

1022
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: New York music culture and putting them into a blender.

1023
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 2: You know, you had the sort of beat poet things

1024
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: like the poetry Damaged Class, which I would include Richard

1025
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 2: Hell and Patti Smith. And that television comes from a

1026
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: little bit more of I don't know, guitar wonkery, like

1027
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 2: with Richard Lloyd, and those guys were serious muso's.

1028
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: You know, maybe like a little bit more jazzy stuff.

1029
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 2: And Ramones of the Mutant girl pop group, you know,

1030
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 2: on Suicide, I never really got I. You know, admittedly

1031
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: I'm not huge on Suicide, but I think they were.

1032
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: I think they were a lot older than everyone else too,

1033
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 2: and it were kind of coming out from maybe some

1034
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 2: more kroud rock influenced stuff than an actual guitar like rock.

1035
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean it's it's a really interesting Petri dish,

1036
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 2: and it's a great testament to what happens when people

1037
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 2: kind of stick to their guns and work on a

1038
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 2: sound rather than trying to compete or fit in.

1039
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: Ramones manager Danny Fields, a Warhol associate in downtown Sceinster,

1040
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: who had recently introduced David Bowie to Iggy Pop, who

1041
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: was sleeping on his couch at this time, had been

1042
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: initially reluctant to catch the Ramones in action at CBGB's

1043
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: because he assumed that they were a Spanish flamenco band

1044
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: based on their name. So wrong in so many ways

1045
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: I can't even begin to come. But he was soon

1046
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: very glad that he made the trip downtown and he

1047
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: asked to be their manager, and the band responded by

1048
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: telling him they needed a few thousand dollars for a

1049
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: drum kit. If he could come up with that, he

1050
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: had the job. Where did Danny Fields fit in all this? Jordan?

1051
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: He's interesting to me because because taking it all the

1052
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: way back to the Beatles again, the Beatles are sort

1053
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: of the unsung heroes of the Ramones episode. He co

1054
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 1: founded and edited a magazine in the sixties called Date Book, which,

1055
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: despite its very kind of middle of the road teeny

1056
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: bob title, fashioned itself as a progressive teen magazine, and

1057
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: they're famous for publishing John Lennon's were Bigger than Jesus

1058
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: Interview in nineteen sixty six, which led to a massive

1059
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: uproar in the United States, particularly in the Bible Belt,

1060
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: which indirectly led to the Beatles' retirement from touring because

1061
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: on that tour they were threatened by the klu klux

1062
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: Klan and other alone nuts their plane. They found bullets

1063
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,439
Speaker 1: in the fusel Lodge people through firecrackers in the middle

1064
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: of their performances, and you'd see footage of the bandle

1065
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: looking at one another thinking that one or the other

1066
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: got shot or something, and led to their decision to

1067
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: retire from touring after that tour in August nineteen sixty six.

1068
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: And supposedly, and it's been a while since I read

1069
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: up on this, but this interview showed the seeds of

1070
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: hate in the heart of John Lennon's future assassin, Mark

1071
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: David Chapman, who was very religious and felt that this

1072
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: was a blasphemous statement by John Lennon, so Danny Fields

1073
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: indirectly don't go there.

1074
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 2: The Ramones recorded a demo in September seventy five featuring

1075
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 2: the songs Judy as a Punk and I Want to

1076
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: Be Your Boyfriend, which they shopped to labels. Their producer,

1077
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 2: Craig Leon, who had seen them perform in the summer

1078
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 2: of seventy five, brought that demo to the attention of

1079
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 2: Sire Records president Seymour Stein. Seymour took some persuading by

1080
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: both his wife and Craig Leon and then their manager

1081
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: Danny Field's the aforementioned John Lennon Killer arranged a rehearsal

1082
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 2: audition at Sir Studios, of which Stein recalled to the

1083
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 2: New York Times in twenty minutes, they had gone through

1084
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 2: about twenty songs. I fell in love with them.

1085
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: I could release a lot of singles from these guys. Yeah,

1086
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: I know.

1087
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 2: Drummer Tommy Ramone recalled Craig Leon is the one who

1088
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 2: got us signed single handed. He risked his career to

1089
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 2: get us on the label. Sire was considered for a

1090
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: long time the most authentically cool of the majors? Is

1091
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 2: that not correct, Jordan? I know they had talking heads

1092
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: at this point, they had pretenders, and they would later

1093
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 2: sign Madonna.

1094
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. My main I mean, aside from those artists you

1095
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: just mentioned. Thought on the Steins and the Sire Records was,

1096
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: wasn't Seymour's wife later murdered.

1097
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: Yes, you put that in here, and I took it

1098
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: out because I thought it was weird.

1099
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: Oh did I Yeah, if there's a murder, I'm gonna

1100
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: put it in. I'm sorry, go on, Yeah, I think

1101
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: it was. I think her assistant murdered her and she

1102
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 1: claimed that it was the abusive scuse basically said that

1103
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: she was just incredibly abusive, and she snapped one day

1104
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: if I recalled, I'm doing that for memory. But did

1105
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: I really put that in there? Yeah? Oh well, yeah, sire?

1106
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: Who else did Cyrus? Oh?

1107
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: They had Dead Boys, the Undertones, famous for Oh I

1108
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: forgot about Dead Boys, not early wave of CBGB's bands.

1109
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 2: Caught with the Meat in Your Mouth, Oh yeah, Undertones, Teenager.

1110
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: The Smith's, they had a big eighties good God, Yeah,

1111
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 1: Echo and the Bunnyman Ministry Tragically Hip, good for sire.

1112
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: All right, now onto a section that you have titled

1113
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: hey Ho studio notes. For years, I just assumed that

1114
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: the Ramones recorded their debut in a pistory tale hole,

1115
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: not unlike CBGB's famous bathrooms that you so indelibly described

1116
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: moments ago. But they actually recorded their debut at Plaza

1117
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: Sound Studios at fifty five West fiftieth Street, on the

1118
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: seventh floor of the art deco masterpiece that housed Radio

1119
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: City Music Hall. So, in other words, they were ordered

1120
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: their record mere feet from the Rockett's home stage, which

1121
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: is insane to me. That's the least punk vision that

1122
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: I can possibly imagine America Baby yes uh. Sound engineer

1123
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: Rob Freeman paints a vivid picture of entering the studio.

1124
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: He said, the trek up to Plaza Sound Studios followed

1125
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: its usual path and escape into a warm refuge of

1126
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: Radio City Music Hall through the stage door entrance, a

1127
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: slow creep up the private elevator to the sixth floor,

1128
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: trudge up another flight and a half of stairs, and

1129
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 1: the seventh floor, which house the recording studio, was suspended

1130
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 1: on steel springs and cork in order to acoustically isolate

1131
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: it from the Great Hall below, hence no elevator all

1132
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: the way up, A dizzying meander through a labyrinth of

1133
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: battleship gray corridors, a delightful pass by the Rockets' dance

1134
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: rehearsal rooms filled with the usual blend of perfume and sweat,

1135
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: and thunderous commotion of one hundred tap dancing showgirls, and

1136
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: finally a disappearance through the black, unmarked door that led

1137
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: to the sanctuary a Plaza Sounds control room. That's a

1138
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: hell of a run on, just imagining hauling up that.

1139
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: Marshall stacks Jesus so to recap. About two years after

1140
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: the Ramones formed, they found themselves recording above Radio City

1141
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: Music Hall for Sire Records, that is insane Sire Records.

1142
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: Though they didn't have a lot of money on the line,

1143
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: they puntied up sixty four hundred dollars to record of

1144
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: the Ramone's debut, which was insultingly small even at that time.

1145
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: Recalled this was the most bloated time in the record

1146
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: industry history, when splashing out half a million dollars wasn't

1147
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: that uncommon, which these days is probably close to like

1148
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: three and a half four million. And three years later

1149
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac would blow over a million dollars on Tusk.

1150
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: So contrast Tusk and a million dollars with Ramone's debut

1151
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: for six four hundred dollars might not have even been

1152
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: that much.

1153
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 2: Craig Lee undisputed that figure in a book called The

1154
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: Downtown on Pop Underground, telling Kembru McLeod incredible name. We

1155
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 2: never paid the full studio rate. It was actually cheaper

1156
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: than six thousand dollars. They recorded the album in basically

1157
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 2: a week, three days for the instrumentals, four for vocals.

1158
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 2: There were two reasons for this. One was a esthetic,

1159
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,439
Speaker 2: the other was practical or at least financial. The band

1160
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: was paying for studio time out of their own advance,

1161
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 2: so the reasoned that if they work fast, they'd be

1162
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 2: able to pocket the rest of the money. Johnny Ramone

1163
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 2: wrote in his autobiography, we were rushing through it because

1164
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: I was conscious that whatever money we wanted was ours,

1165
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 2: and that we just had to pay all this money back.

1166
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:38,919
Speaker 2: So whenever the engineer would ask me how I felt

1167
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 2: about a take, I'd say, oh, that's the best I'd

1168
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 2: ever played it. I don't think I'll ever play it

1169
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 2: that well again, and we'd move on. They also recorded

1170
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 2: at night, which is the time honored way of getting

1171
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 2: cheap studio time, which I have never done because I

1172
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 2: have a day job and I liked sleeping. Uh, what

1173
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 2: was I gonna say? It helped that they were somewhat prepared.

1174
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 2: Johnny Ramone told Rolling Stone, we had the songs for

1175
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 2: the first three albums when we did the first one.

1176
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 2: We already had thirty to thirty five songs, and we

1177
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 2: recorded them in the chronological order that we wrote them.

1178
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: I didn't want the second album to be a letdown.

1179
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 2: By picking through all the best songs for the first

1180
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 2: album and using the lesser songs for these second albums.

1181
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 2: That's so good, it's so smart, and that's why the

1182
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 2: first four records are the best. And then it gets spotty.

1183
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 2: Craig Leon told The New York Times. Until we made

1184
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 2: the record, they literally hadn't rehearsed how to end songs,

1185
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 2: which by which I assume they meant because their live

1186
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 2: shows were just one after the other after the other

1187
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 2: after the other. They were probably unacquainted with letting stuff

1188
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 2: ring when you're recording live, to give it long enough

1189
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 2: of a tale to let everything fade out, which I

1190
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: did the first time I was in a professional recording studio.

1191
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 2: It was just immediately talked over, like before the last

1192
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 2: symbol hit rang out. I was like, I don't know,

1193
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 2: how do we feel about that one? I was like, well,

1194
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 2: you just ruined that take, so shut up next time.

1195
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 2: Part of the recording process dated back to their demo

1196
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 2: and their love of the Beatles. When we first went

1197
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 2: into the studio to cut our demo, we're coming up

1198
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 2: with unique recording ideas for the time Tommy Vermone were

1199
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: called to tape op. We decided to go backwards a bit.

1200
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 2: We decided to use hard left and right ping pong

1201
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: stereo effects like we heard on old Beatles records. We

1202
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: wanted to make an album that sounded different. We ended

1203
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 2: up transferring those experiments onto our first album. Quick sidebar

1204
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 2: unprompted about delay, Jordan, what do you know about delay?

1205
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 1: I know that this episode probably will be.

1206
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 2: So the earliest delay. Delay is just the term just

1207
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 2: refers to reproducing an audio signal after, usually after the

1208
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 2: original input signal happens. And it used to be accomplished

1209
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 2: by running two tape decks with one set to a

1210
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 2: slightly lower speed than the other one, and that is

1211
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 2: what's called I mean, you can run them both at

1212
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: the same time for kind of a chorusing effect or

1213
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 2: very very few millis seconds off. But running it to

1214
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: the point where it starts to get noticeable is when

1215
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 2: you get the shortest form of delay. It's called slap

1216
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 2: back and that's what you hear on the early rockabilly records,

1217
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 2: That's what you hear on Sun all those The part

1218
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 2: of the muge part of the Sun sound is slap

1219
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 2: back delay, because you're essentially getting an echo double of

1220
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 2: what is originally being heard really really quickly after it

1221
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 2: almost imperceptibly fast. Sometimes The problem is that running those

1222
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 2: with tape decks, you only got so much time out

1223
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 2: of it. So by the mid seventies you started to

1224
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 2: have a couple of different forms of mechanical delay. There's

1225
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 2: the Binson echo Wreck, which used a rotating metal drum

1226
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:42,439
Speaker 2: to produce delay. That's on a lot of the early

1227
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 2: Pink Floyd records. Then you get stuff like the echo plex,

1228
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 2: which is another tape delay thing. I forget when the

1229
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 2: roll in space echo comes into vogue, but a lot

1230
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 2: of that pioneering work was not just done by the

1231
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 2: psychedelic bands and engineers at Abbey Road and stuff, but

1232
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 2: by Jamaican muse too. I mean a lot of dub

1233
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 2: records and stuff is really where you hear a lot

1234
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 2: of that, like.

1235
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 1: Sort of.

1236
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 2: The space Echo in particular, is really good at producing

1237
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 2: that delay that sort of trails off into the distance

1238
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,640
Speaker 2: because it's running on tape, so it's actually just the

1239
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,560
Speaker 2: signal is decaying the longer goes on.

1240
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 1: Was there a reason why, I mean, was it just

1241
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:26,839
Speaker 1: an aesthetic that these artists liked, or for these Jamaican artists,

1242
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: was there some type of reason why that was chosen?

1243
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: Was it the arrangements were so sparse that they just

1244
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 1: wanted something to fill it had part of it.

1245
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I will say that. Also, when you're really high,

1246
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 2: it sounds super cool. You know.

1247
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:44,720
Speaker 1: Have you thought of that? I did think of that

1248
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: well their homage to the Beatles. But further than engineering,

1249
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 1: The Beatles famously recorded their nineteen sixty three debut Please

1250
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: Please Me, in a single marathon session in an effort

1251
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 1: to capture the thrill of their sets at Liverpool's Cavern Club.

1252
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: In fact, the Beatles' debut was very nearly a live

1253
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: album at the Cavern Club until they went up there.

1254
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 1: George Martin, the Beatles producer, went up there and realized

1255
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: there was no way in hell that could get a

1256
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: good recording in what was basically a wine cellar. The

1257
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,640
Speaker 1: Ramones wanted to take the same approach and ensure that

1258
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: their debut had the same excitement and spontaneity of their

1259
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 1: legendary live sets at CBGB's, so to achieve this, the

1260
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 1: band essentially just performed their stage show. Johnny said, we'd

1261
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: record the songs in the same order that we played

1262
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: them in our live set at the time, which was

1263
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: a trick they'd repeat for the next two albums, Leave

1264
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: Home and Rock It to Russia. Producer Craig Leon even

1265
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 1: considered making the record a single track with no breaks

1266
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,120
Speaker 1: in between songs, which is awesome as a technique he

1267
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: employed to a smaller extent between I Don't Want to

1268
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 1: Walk around with You and Today Your Love, Tomorrow the World.

1269
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that, at twenty nine minutes and four seconds,

1270
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: the Ramones debut is a good bit longer of some

1271
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: of their early shows. It was a usual for Ramone

1272
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: set to clock in around about twenty minutes or so

1273
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 1: when they were cutting their teeth at CBGB's or Max's

1274
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 1: Kansas City in downtown New York City. When a longer

1275
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 1: concert was necessary, they simply took it from the top

1276
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: and repeated their set list. We never did that. What

1277
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 1: we always had a lot of songs. We never had encourse,

1278
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 1: nobody ever asked.

1279
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 2: The micing set up in the room is basically live.

1280
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 2: They used Marshal lamps for the guitars, Ampeg SVTs for

1281
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 2: the bass. This is Tommy and tapop, he said. We

1282
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 2: mic the marshals with SM fifty seven's up close and

1283
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: that is, by the way, still just the entry level

1284
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:40,759
Speaker 2: mic that you see on stage in every single club

1285
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 2: in the world. I guarantee you it's what they're putting

1286
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 2: on the guitar cabs. For the bass, we miked up

1287
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 2: with electro Voice ARI twenties. Those are the gray cylindrical

1288
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 2: mics that you will see many podcasters using if they

1289
01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 2: are not using the one Jordan I are, which is

1290
01:10:56,120 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 2: the Shore SM seven B. And then other than the

1291
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 2: stuff that's on the drums, some Sennheisers for the toms,

1292
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 2: Sony's on the high hat. The most expensive stuff that

1293
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 2: they were using that isn't the only thing that would

1294
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 2: be out of reach for someone is the Noymans the

1295
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:20,560
Speaker 2: U eighty seven, which are very famously expensive, precision engineered

1296
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 2: German tube mics.

1297
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 1: But you know, he's still still saying.

1298
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 2: The guitar sound that they did was just cranking the

1299
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 2: amp and then close mic far mic blend guitar on

1300
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 2: the right channel based on the left drums and vocals

1301
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 2: in the center channel. Joey doubled his vocal lines and

1302
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 2: they pressed whoever was in the studio and who could

1303
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: carry a tune into doing backing vocals, and that's it.

1304
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 2: I just love the fact that this day was made

1305
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 2: with and you know they had nice outboard equipment, pre

1306
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,720
Speaker 2: ms and stuff. But this this is basically made with

1307
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 2: the equipment that you would probably use to you know,

1308
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:06,759
Speaker 2: Mike a live band in a just a few steps

1309
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,839
Speaker 2: up from a dive bar. You wouldn't use the Noymans

1310
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 2: the U eighty seven before any dorks come at me.

1311
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 2: But Man SM fifty seven on the guitar cab and

1312
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 2: and on the snare is like crucial DIY punk recording. Anyway,

1313
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:24,719
Speaker 2: I digress, get in the weeds, I'm getting the Jordan's

1314
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 2: putting out the hook biato. I didn't hit us with

1315
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 2: a biato when I was doing my harmonic spiel earlier.

1316
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 2: Leon Untild the vinyl factory. Capturing the energy of the

1317
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 2: live shows was quite important. But if you jump to

1318
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 2: the conclusion that the sound of the recording was just

1319
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 2: the sound of the band live, you would be mistaken.

1320
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 2: The album is quite layered and structured. There are several songs,

1321
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:48,600
Speaker 2: and there's much much more than one guitar. There's a

1322
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 2: triangle on I Want to Be Your Boyfriend, which I

1323
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 2: love that he pointed to as an example of how

1324
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 2: layered it was. The overdubed bomb sound on Havana Affair

1325
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 2: was achieved by tuning a tom tom drum very low

1326
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 2: and then holding it under a piano, and then someone

1327
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 2: holding the sustained pedal on the piano down so when

1328
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 2: you hit the draw, it would filter up and ring

1329
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 2: through the piano, creating this sort of ambient ringing sound.

1330
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,799
Speaker 2: Some other hilarious random quotes about recording engineer Rob Freeman.

1331
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 2: When you asked them what key they were in, or

1332
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 2: could you tune that up a little bit, they just

1333
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 2: weren't interested. If you asked them to play it up

1334
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 2: in octave, they would just play it exactly the same way.

1335
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 2: Seymour Stein in the Lifestyles of the Ramones, I can

1336
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 2: remember going to the studio and the Ramones had got

1337
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 2: there three hours earlier. I said, how's everything going, And

1338
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 2: Johnny says to me, things aren't going so great. We

1339
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 2: only got seven tracks down. Craig Leon, we set up

1340
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 2: a metronome with a flashing light in Tommy's booth in

1341
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,560
Speaker 2: the center because we couldn't get a click track to

1342
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:48,360
Speaker 2: go that fast.

1343
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be

1344
01:13:53,320 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 1: right back with more. Too much information in just a moment. Well,

1345
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 1: let's go a very briefly, song by song on the

1346
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 1: track list, we got to start talking about one of

1347
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 1: the all time best album openers ever, best side one

1348
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: track ones. Let's create bop, frantic floor on the floor rhythms,

1349
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 1: slicing power chords, an immensely shadowble refrain. It's a cornerstone

1350
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 1: of punk, which is surprising considering the song has its

1351
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 1: roots in the most triakily pop crap ever, so sickeningly

1352
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 1: sweet that even I don't like it, Johnny would say

1353
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: of the Ramon's early days, I think we wanted to

1354
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 1: be a bubblegum band. At one point, the Bay City

1355
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: Rollers were becoming popular. They had written Saturday Night, and

1356
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 1: we sat down and said, we have to write a

1357
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 1: song with a chant in it like they have. The

1358
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:53,000
Speaker 1: Ba City Rollers have s A T U R D

1359
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 1: A y Night. Yeah. So that planted the seed, but

1360
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: they needed something with a little more oomph. Howmy Ramone explained,

1361
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 1: I wanted a rallying song. I was trying to think

1362
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:05,759
Speaker 1: of a good rally when I remember the Rolling Stones

1363
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: version of Rufus Thomas's Walking the Dog, where Mick Jagger

1364
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:12,880
Speaker 1: sings the line high Hoe nipped her toes, presumably with

1365
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:16,799
Speaker 1: a little more swagger than I just the line morphed

1366
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: into hey ho, let's go. And speaking of bubble gum,

1367
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:22,719
Speaker 1: we have to talk about beat on the Brat, which

1368
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: sounds to my ears like a sadistic rewrite of Yummy, Yummy, Yummy,

1369
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:37,960
Speaker 1: I've Got Love in my Tummy by Ohio Express Yummy

1370
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 1: Yummy Yummy, I Got love in my tummy, And I'm like,

1371
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: I'm loving you. You such a sweet thing, good enough to.

1372
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 3: Thing, And it's just a what I'm gonna do? What

1373
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 3: beton the Brat Beeton the Pratz bet with the face.

1374
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 2: Yea, yeah, I believe you're onto that. D D told

1375
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 2: Michael Hill in two thousand and one that the when

1376
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 2: they were first starting out, he just said, the Romones

1377
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 2: started trying to figure out songs from records and we

1378
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 2: couldn't maybe Yummy Yummy Yummy by the Ohio Express or

1379
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 2: can't you Hear My Heart Beat by Herman's Hermits. Joey

1380
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 2: would say that the idea for this song came from

1381
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,640
Speaker 2: when he lived in Forest Hill's Birchwood Towers complex with

1382
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:32,760
Speaker 2: his mom and brother. He said it was a middle

1383
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 2: class neighborhood with a lot of rich, snooty women who

1384
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 2: had horrible brat kids who were obnoxious. There was a

1385
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 2: playground with women sitting around, a kid screaming, A horrible

1386
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 2: kid just running around, rampant with no discipline whatsoever. The

1387
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:46,560
Speaker 2: kind of kid you just want to kill, you know,

1388
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 2: beat on the brat with a baseball bat just came out.

1389
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 1: I just wanted to kill him. Uh.

1390
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 2: Dede has a slightly different but no less violent memory

1391
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 2: of the song's origins. Joey saw some mother going after

1392
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 2: a kid with a bat and his lobby and wrote

1393
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 2: a song about it. Should be said, though, that Dede

1394
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 2: is resolutely referred to by everyone as sort of the

1395
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 2: ultimate unreliable narrator. So grain of salt, mountain AsSalt with

1396
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 2: everything he said, Uh hmm, I want to be your boyfriend, man.

1397
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:23,000
Speaker 1: Said, hell Loo girl, I want to be a man.

1398
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 2: The Man's second single nailed their power pop song so

1399
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 2: perfectly that d D has claimed that the Bay City

1400
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 2: Rollers wanted to cover it. I believe so did Tommy

1401
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 2: at one point. The songs Ronnett's Shangri Las girl group

1402
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:40,240
Speaker 2: style vocals came courtesy of producer Craig Leon and engineer

1403
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:43,719
Speaker 2: Rob Freeman. H Freeman said, we tried with Doug Dedi

1404
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 2: and he'd gets spit all over the microphone. He was

1405
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 2: so aggressive after a lot of torture. It was supposed

1406
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 2: to be sweet.

1407
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: We did it. Jermoe's brother Mickey Lee, also performs backing

1408
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: vocal duties on the song, as well as Blitz Creekbop

1409
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 1: and Judy is a Punk. None of these contributions re

1410
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 1: noted on the album's original liner notes, however, and when

1411
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 1: a very disappointed Mickey asked why, Johnny Ramone had a

1412
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 1: very simple explanation. We didn't want people to get confused

1413
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: with who's in the band or who's not. It's our

1414
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 1: first album, you know, we didn't want people to get confused.

1415
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,799
Speaker 1: Fair Yeah, I mean I mentioned this earlier. My musical

1416
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 1: interests really overlapped with the Ramones and a very big

1417
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: way from gool groups like the Shangri Laws to the

1418
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: Beatles to all my catchy bubblegum crap and British Invasion stuff. Yeah.

1419
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 1: I think the only reason I don't like it is

1420
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 1: that it's just not pretty enough for me, much like Joey.

1421
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:35,719
Speaker 1: That's why he wasn't in Sniper.

1422
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 2: Not much to say about Chainsaw in the fact that

1423
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,520
Speaker 2: it is a fact a tribute to Toby Hoopy's groundbreaking

1424
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 2: masterpiece of slash exploitation, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. My only

1425
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 2: note about this song is how incredible it is that

1426
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 2: Joey pronounces massacre as massacree. Oh, it's like in order

1427
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,760
Speaker 2: to force thesaurant. Yeah, well he's trying to force the

1428
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 2: rhyme with me, so he pronounces it that Texas Chainsaw massacree. Hilarious, incredible,

1429
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 2: No notes Jordan tell us about Now I want to

1430
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:12,080
Speaker 2: sniff some glue.

1431
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a funny one. Supposedly, in nineteen seventy six,

1432
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 1: the West of Scotland was facing an epidemic in glue sniffing,

1433
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,680
Speaker 1: with a few deaths as a result, and an MP

1434
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:26,639
Speaker 1: from nearby Coatbridge. In that area, a guy named James

1435
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: Dempy called for a ban on selling solvent products to

1436
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:33,559
Speaker 1: anyone under the age of eighteen, and that summer one

1437
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:37,400
Speaker 1: angry parent contacted him, mentioning that their son had the

1438
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 1: debut Ramones record. So on August nineteenth, nineteen seventy six,

1439
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: a little over a month after the Ramones played London

1440
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 1: for the very first time, on America's by centennial on

1441
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 1: m Ad the headline of Glasgow's Evening Times read glue

1442
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 1: sniff disc shocker, and that front page is now part

1443
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: of an exhibit in Berlin's Ramone Museum, which I've actually

1444
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: been to. It's very cool. Oh nice. Denie's response to

1445
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 1: the versus supposedly went, damn, it's a good thing we

1446
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,599
Speaker 1: split from these f two hundred years ago. I hope

1447
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:08,639
Speaker 1: they really don't think we sniffed glue. I quit when

1448
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:09,519
Speaker 1: I was about eight.

1449
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:12,799
Speaker 2: Incredible. I don't want to go down to the basement.

1450
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 2: Another supposedly horror inspired one about how dumb it is

1451
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 2: if you're in a horror movie to do that.

1452
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 1: Loudmouth.

1453
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:25,120
Speaker 2: Uh, Tommy did an incredible bit of time. I knew

1454
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 2: a kid in Brooklyn who used to email venues as

1455
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:28,799
Speaker 2: his own fake manager.

1456
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,679
Speaker 1: That's good. Yeah, would you say a kid?

1457
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 2: Do you mean it wasn't any when you knew?

1458
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: Sorry, it wasn't you. No, it was not me.

1459
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:44,759
Speaker 2: No, I have ethics to my detriment. Uh, I should

1460
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 2: say principles. But so Tommy would conduct the band's business

1461
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 2: correspondence from under his Christian name Thomas Air did Lee

1462
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 2: or a delay, I don't know something Hungarian under Loudmouth

1463
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:01,320
Speaker 2: Production's letterhead, So people did not know that they were

1464
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 2: getting male from the actual Ramones drummer. They assumed it

1465
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 2: was like their actual management company. Hilarious, great scam Havana affair.

1466
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:13,560
Speaker 2: Probably a combination of the group growing up and experiencing

1467
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:15,680
Speaker 2: the Bay of Pigs and Cuba missile crisis would be

1468
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 2: my bet.

1469
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:17,000
Speaker 1: From that.

1470
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 2: Nothing else interesting to say about it, Yeah, listen to

1471
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 2: my heart.

1472
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 1: Dede said in this autobiography that when he showed the

1473
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 1: song to the band, Tommy said, oh, it doesn't have

1474
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 1: a middle eight in it, So I just wrote the

1475
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 1: middle eight on the spot, also known as a bridge.

1476
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 1: Tobby couldn't believe I could do that. Do you know

1477
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 1: that the Beatles? Again? I always take it back to

1478
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 1: the Beatles in this episode. It actually works though, because

1479
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 1: the Ramones were such big Beatles fans, they were actually

1480
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:41,720
Speaker 1: the ones who popularized the phrase middle eight as a

1481
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 1: colloquial term for a bridge, because they never made the

1482
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: connection that it meant the middle eight bars of a song.

1483
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 1: So they just started calling all their bridges the middle eight,

1484
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: regardless of how many bars it had, and that always

1485
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 1: cracked George Martin. Up.

1486
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to assume that it comes from the

1487
01:21:56,840 --> 01:22:00,360
Speaker 2: thirty two bar form that, like all of Tin and Alley,

1488
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:02,599
Speaker 2: falls into the aaba.

1489
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 1: Umm, oh you gotta do this one fifty third and

1490
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 1: third Oh yeah, classic one of them. Autobiographical time.

1491
01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 2: Oh well, it's not all biographical because it's about a

1492
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 2: marine who returns from Vietnam and turns to male prostitution

1493
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 2: to support his drug habit and then murders one of

1494
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:24,240
Speaker 2: his johns to prove that he isn't gay. So not

1495
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:25,439
Speaker 2: explicitly about d D.

1496
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 1: But did he did?

1497
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:34,759
Speaker 2: He? And he sings lead vocals on it terribly. People

1498
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,719
Speaker 2: often say that, well, I'm trying to think I sensitively

1499
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 2: phrased this. There's a nineteen eighty seven book called Addict,

1500
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 2: Out of the Dark and Into the Light, and ded

1501
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 2: he spoke delivered an interview about his journey into drug

1502
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:51,600
Speaker 2: addiction and sex work for this book, and incredibly, the

1503
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,960
Speaker 2: audio from that interview is actually online. It's hosted at

1504
01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:58,800
Speaker 2: intervention dot org and you can actually go and listen

1505
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 2: to the full twenty three minute or whatever where he

1506
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 2: talks about this, and it's it's grim. I mean, like

1507
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:10,840
Speaker 2: I said, he mentioned. He talks about hitchhiking to la

1508
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 2: and picking up his drug habit there, and the really

1509
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 2: harrowing part of it is him talking about how he

1510
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 2: wasn't gay and didn't like having sex with men, but

1511
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 2: had to. The area at the intersection of fifty third

1512
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:27,600
Speaker 2: Street and Third Avenue was a section of what was

1513
01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 2: known as the Loop, and it was basically a hot

1514
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:34,560
Speaker 2: bed for male prostitution. There was a lot of it

1515
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 2: was a lot of gay night clubs in that area too,

1516
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 2: and it basically survived up until the early nineties when

1517
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:46,040
Speaker 2: the MIYPD were sort of putting increased pressure on the

1518
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:49,120
Speaker 2: gay community in New York because of the fallout of

1519
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 2: the and continuing AIDS crisis at that time, and basically

1520
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 2: just you know, swept it a night after night after

1521
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 2: night and sort of ruined that area. Fascinatingly enough, it's

1522
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 2: the same intersection mentioned by Rod Stewart in this song

1523
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 2: from the same year, Killing of Georgie. That's a devastating song,

1524
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 2: you know that song, I don't we is it off

1525
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 2: Gasoline Alley?

1526
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 1: No, No, it can't have been. No, it's a lot later.

1527
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 2: No, I don't listen to anything past that early So really.

1528
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 1: You should check it out. It's like shockingly progressive, especially

1529
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 1: for Rod Stewart. Yeah, it's it's this lengthy ballad kind

1530
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:27,920
Speaker 1: of mourning the death of I actually don't know if

1531
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 1: it's based on somebody actually knew, but a gay man

1532
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 1: who was killed in a street fight. I forget.

1533
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 2: Do you like Rod Stewart or is he I do

1534
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 2: Jeff Beck I mean early?

1535
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 1: I like Jeff Becker Whips.

1536
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 2: Obviously The Faces are one of the greatest rock and

1537
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:44,960
Speaker 2: roll bands ever, and then the Early like the first

1538
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:47,720
Speaker 2: two or three. Well, I don't really like Gasolene Alley

1539
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:50,720
Speaker 2: that much, but those first two back to back Rod

1540
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,400
Speaker 2: records that he made with other members of the Faces

1541
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,799
Speaker 2: never dull moment and ever picture tells a story. Fantastic records,

1542
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:02,439
Speaker 2: Hilarious records too, So many errors on those records. They

1543
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 2: are so damn funny to me. I like it's I

1544
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 2: just it would annoy me in almost any other circumstances.

1545
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 2: But just knowing that motley crew of idiots, just like

1546
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:17,000
Speaker 2: drunkish hacking their way through this stuff is so fucking funny.

1547
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 1: Dude.

1548
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:20,560
Speaker 2: There's one where he audibly misses his vocal cue or

1549
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 2: goes in to do it too early, and they kept

1550
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 2: him like he goes up to the you hear him go,

1551
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 2: then packs off the bike. There's another one on the ballot.

1552
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:31,600
Speaker 2: If it feels like a long time, seems like a

1553
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 2: long time. Where Ron Wood is playing some of the

1554
01:25:35,080 --> 01:25:38,360
Speaker 2: worst bass guitar I've ever heard, committed to record. He

1555
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 2: hits so many clams and just and rather than trying

1556
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 2: to play fewer clams, just continues to play more notes,

1557
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:50,519
Speaker 2: perhaps in the hope that he will stumble onto the

1558
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:54,679
Speaker 2: correct note at some point. Truly incredible stuff, great songs,

1559
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 2: great record, love them.

1560
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: What were we talking about? Back to the killing of

1561
01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: Georgia Yeading the Way nineteen ninety five issue of Mojo,

1562
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 1: Roger Stewart explained that was a true story about a

1563
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 1: gay friend of the Faces. He was especially close to

1564
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 1: me and Faces pianos Ian McLaughlin, but he was knife

1565
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 1: or shot. I can't remember which. That was a song

1566
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:16,640
Speaker 1: I wrote totally on my own over the court of

1567
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:22,439
Speaker 1: open E. Yeah, good song, very good song. Touching Let's

1568
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 1: Dance just a great cover.

1569
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,679
Speaker 2: Original was number four hit nineteen sixty two for Chris Montes,

1570
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:33,320
Speaker 2: apparently extremely beloved by English glam rockers slate I was

1571
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:34,680
Speaker 2: pronounced it slot a.

1572
01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:42,720
Speaker 1: That's gonna be your Halloween cover band lamm versions of

1573
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 1: shot as.

1574
01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, t Rex and David Bowie all covered that song

1575
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:48,080
Speaker 2: at different ones.

1576
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:51,680
Speaker 1: Did that that's that's not like the MTV song of

1577
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:55,519
Speaker 1: the same name. It's he covered the no no, no,

1578
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 1: no no no, Let's dance hold place. It's ungooglable because

1579
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 1: all going to get as the big song. Oh it was.

1580
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 2: It was Tina Turner and David Bowie on Tina Live

1581
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 2: in Europe. Wait, I need I'm listening to a snippet

1582
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 2: of this to make sure it was an interpolation. They

1583
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 2: did Let's dance, but then they broke into the other

1584
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:14,120
Speaker 2: last dance.

1585
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 1: Oh that's cool. Well not like I did a fifteen

1586
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:19,599
Speaker 1: hour documentary bios series.

1587
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,680
Speaker 2: It was gonna say that's why that one hit you

1588
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:25,960
Speaker 2: so hard? Yeah, like there's a bully blind, spots a

1589
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:26,640
Speaker 2: stone I.

1590
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 1: Left unturned and then all right, and then they I

1591
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:31,120
Speaker 1: believe the last track on the album, I Don't Want

1592
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:33,519
Speaker 1: to Walk Around with You, which, as we mentioned, one

1593
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,320
Speaker 1: of the first promote songs ever written. Oh wait no,

1594
01:27:36,600 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 1: this is the last song. Ohio, you take this one?

1595
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:44,759
Speaker 1: No you do it some of a bit okay, all right, today,

1596
01:27:44,800 --> 01:27:51,560
Speaker 1: your love tomorrow, the world a famous Hitler quote paraphrase quote.

1597
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:53,280
Speaker 2: Early punks man really into Nazi.

1598
01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 1: It's weird.

1599
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 2: Why was there some kind of my My theory is

1600
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:03,680
Speaker 2: that it was just enough in their past to be, yeah,

1601
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 2: to be like transgressive without them actually being that affected

1602
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 2: by it, you know, even though.

1603
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 1: Probably Tommy had to say about it.

1604
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah dude, I mean, and it was easy to shock

1605
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 2: people with that stuff too, and you know, but yeah,

1606
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 2: I freaking one of the stooges collected it and he

1607
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 2: showed up at their man at someone's wedding. We're in

1608
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 2: like a full length SS jacket. It's like, what the

1609
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:31,560
Speaker 2: wow is wrong with you?

1610
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 1: Well, seymour Stein begged the Ramones not to include the

1611
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:38,240
Speaker 1: reference to a Nazi in the opening verse while I'm

1612
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:41,360
Speaker 1: a stormtrooper and a stupor, Yes, I'm a Nazi statzi,

1613
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:44,839
Speaker 1: you know, I fight for the Fatherland, But they refused

1614
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 1: to change it because they felt like they would be

1615
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 1: compromising themselves on day one of their career. The Nazi

1616
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:53,839
Speaker 1: imagery was commented upon by Robert Chriscal in his otherwise

1617
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 1: very glowing review of the Ramones debut. I love this record,

1618
01:28:57,439 --> 01:29:00,160
Speaker 1: love it. Even though these boys flirt with image is

1619
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 1: a brutality, nazis, especially in much the same way Midnight

1620
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 1: Rambler by the Rolling Stones flirts with rape. This makes

1621
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 1: me uneasy, But my theory has always been that good

1622
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:13,360
Speaker 1: rock and roll should damn well make you uneasy, okay man.

1623
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:18,760
Speaker 1: The original cover concept for the Ramone's debut was meant

1624
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:21,519
Speaker 1: to be yet another nod to the Beatles, specifically the

1625
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 1: cover of the beatles nineteen sixty four American debut Meet

1626
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:27,719
Speaker 1: the Beatles, which was a moody black and white photo

1627
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:32,439
Speaker 1: of their faces shot by English photographer Robert Freeman, whose

1628
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 1: wife Sonny, a German born model, would have an affair

1629
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:39,160
Speaker 1: with John Lennon, possibly inspiring the lyrics in Norwegian would

1630
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 1: see It's all it all comes together. The Ramones label

1631
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 1: Sire Records, spent two thousand dollars or nearly a third

1632
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:51,200
Speaker 1: of the album's recording cost, on a photoshoot to mimic

1633
01:29:51,240 --> 01:29:53,880
Speaker 1: the Meet the Beatles cover, but the results were deemed

1634
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:58,440
Speaker 1: unsatisfactory and the idea was scrapped, so the band desperately

1635
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 1: searched for an alternative on the cheap and their thoughts

1636
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:05,200
Speaker 1: turned to ROBERTA. Bailey, who's a staff photographer for Punk

1637
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 1: Magazine who they had recently worked with for an article.

1638
01:30:08,520 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 1: And I think she was also the door person at

1639
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:14,559
Speaker 1: CBGB's if I recall, and ultimately they opted for one

1640
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,439
Speaker 1: of the shots from her session instead.

1641
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:19,600
Speaker 2: Good She would recall in the book I Slept with

1642
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:23,160
Speaker 2: Joey Ramon by the aforementioned brother mickiy Lee. That photo

1643
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:25,240
Speaker 2: that ultimately became the album cover was just one of

1644
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 2: those perfect moments when everything came together. The frame before it,

1645
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 2: the frame after it aren't that great, but for that

1646
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:34,080
Speaker 2: one moment, everyone looked right exactly like the Ramones. Then

1647
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:39,639
Speaker 2: when I was changing film, Dede stepped in dog Leg's

1648
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 2: McNeil was also present for the occasion, and he remembered

1649
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 2: this moment distinctly. If you look at the contact sheet,

1650
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,479
Speaker 2: you see Dede trying to wipe the dogs off his

1651
01:30:47,560 --> 01:30:50,240
Speaker 2: sneaker with a stick. Then he chases everyone with a

1652
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 2: dog stick and the photo session is over. What a

1653
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:58,560
Speaker 2: great series of vignettes. Imagine that set to like Me

1654
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:02,559
Speaker 2: and Julio down by the School, Halla World ten and bombs.

1655
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:06,200
Speaker 1: Johnny Ramone never thought that.

1656
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 2: The label would use that particular photo because, as eagle

1657
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 2: eyed viewers more eagle eyed than the record label have

1658
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:16,519
Speaker 2: been noticing for decades now, he is slightly slipping the

1659
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 2: bird with his hands in his belt loop. He said,

1660
01:31:21,439 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 2: I was really trying to sneak it in. I felt

1661
01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:25,559
Speaker 2: like I got one over on everyone, but I guess

1662
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,800
Speaker 2: they just expected it from us. Sire Records did go

1663
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:31,000
Speaker 2: for the photo, which had already appeared in Punk Magazine,

1664
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 2: and shout out one hundred and twenty five dollars for

1665
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 2: the rights.

1666
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:37,960
Speaker 1: The Ramote's self titled debut was released on April twenty third,

1667
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, and it was not a financial success,

1668
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:46,839
Speaker 1: reaching reaching the dizzying heights of one hundred and eleven

1669
01:31:47,120 --> 01:31:51,679
Speaker 1: on the Billboard Charts and selling only six thousand copies

1670
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:55,760
Speaker 1: in its first year. Yes, more people listen to this

1671
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:59,559
Speaker 1: show than bought the first Ramones album in its first year.

1672
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:00,560
Speaker 2: Suck it.

1673
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:07,840
Speaker 1: I a win. Who will be the most influential gang

1674
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:12,360
Speaker 1: of adiothropic diletants. Only time will tell.

1675
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start telling people I beat j Johnny Ramone.

1676
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:23,400
Speaker 1: And what It's not important. It wouldn't be certified gold

1677
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:26,639
Speaker 1: by the RIAA for sales of over five hundred thousand

1678
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 1: until April thirteenth, twenty fourteen, almost exactly thirty eight years

1679
01:32:31,640 --> 01:32:34,519
Speaker 1: after it was released. I'm shocked that it didn't have

1680
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 1: some kind of a spike. I mean, I guess that's

1681
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 1: a hell of a jump from six thousand to half

1682
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:42,799
Speaker 1: a million, but still, like that's for such an iconic,

1683
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:46,320
Speaker 1: influential album. I can't believe it's sold. I don't know.

1684
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 1: Maybe just a lot of people are trading copies from

1685
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:50,639
Speaker 1: record stores and thrift shops and stuff.

1686
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:53,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think they were big. Well, it

1687
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 2: makes sense for me. The timeline makes sense for me

1688
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:58,120
Speaker 2: because their first this came out in seventy six, their

1689
01:32:58,160 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 2: first UK shows were a year later. They weren't really

1690
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:03,160
Speaker 2: getting booked in the States outside of New York, and

1691
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 2: they weren't big in Europe until they make it over there,

1692
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,760
Speaker 2: where they were huge, at least in London. So yeah,

1693
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't know tracks, but it's depressing. Sire publicist Jennis

1694
01:33:15,320 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 2: Shot in Everett True's Ramones biography, heho Let's Go, said

1695
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:22,720
Speaker 2: the first album only sold seven thousand copies, even though

1696
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 2: I had a two level horizontal file cabinet one for

1697
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:28,720
Speaker 2: the Ramones press and one for all of the other

1698
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 2: Sire acts. In that same book, Melody Maker journalist Chris

1699
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:35,640
Speaker 2: Charlesworth recalled that there was a preview party held at

1700
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 2: the label's West seventy fourth Street building, but it didn't

1701
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:42,080
Speaker 2: last long because he said the album was over pretty quickly.

1702
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:47,400
Speaker 2: He said, if it had been Atlantic launching the new

1703
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 2: led Zeppelin album, there would have been an all up

1704
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:52,759
Speaker 2: market with huge speakers and a wide variety of food, lobster,

1705
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:55,760
Speaker 2: heaven knows what. This was fun but scruffy. We were

1706
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:59,000
Speaker 2: served this dreadful sweet red wine, the worst I've ever

1707
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:01,720
Speaker 2: Tastedottles of it were pressed on us as we left.

1708
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 2: Two bottles of it stayed in my kitchen undrunk for

1709
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:08,640
Speaker 2: months afterwards. Real last resort stuff. Seymour Stein told The

1710
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:10,960
Speaker 2: New York Times, I got hate mail when the record

1711
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 2: came out. The manager of two of my bands threatened

1712
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:16,000
Speaker 2: to sue me if I didn't drop the Ramones on

1713
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:18,640
Speaker 2: what grounds moral outrage.

1714
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:22,760
Speaker 1: But the Ramones' impact was arguably felt the greatest in

1715
01:34:22,840 --> 01:34:25,599
Speaker 1: the UK and the immediate aftermath of the album's release,

1716
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:27,720
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, they couldn't even get a gig in

1717
01:34:27,840 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 1: New Haven they went over to play a small series

1718
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:34,000
Speaker 1: of gigs in England at the Roundhouse, and Joe Strummer

1719
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:37,519
Speaker 1: was one of the many future punk luminaries. If you

1720
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 1: call him a punk, I guess you can, that was there.

1721
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:41,680
Speaker 1: He said that he doesn't think the Clash would have

1722
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 1: had support in the UK if the Ramones hadn't laid

1723
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 1: the groundwork. And they played at the Roundhouse where I've

1724
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: heard multiple versions of how many people were there. I've

1725
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:54,120
Speaker 1: heard some people say about sixty people turned up, and

1726
01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:56,080
Speaker 1: then I've heard people say it was sold out. It

1727
01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:58,920
Speaker 1: was a relatively big venue, at least like a couple thousand,

1728
01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:01,479
Speaker 1: so I don't know your knowledge, my very but among

1729
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:03,160
Speaker 1: the people who showed up were future members of the

1730
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 1: Sex Pistols, the Clash, the Stranglers and the Damned, and

1731
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 1: I think it was in the end of the century.

1732
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:12,040
Speaker 1: I believe it was Joe Strummer who tells a story

1733
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:14,560
Speaker 1: about them going like around back of the venue and

1734
01:35:14,680 --> 01:35:17,680
Speaker 1: like calling up to their dressing room and just like

1735
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:20,840
Speaker 1: throwing rocks at the window like Romeo and Juliet while

1736
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:23,840
Speaker 1: and asking to be let in, and the Ramones formed

1737
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:26,920
Speaker 1: a human chain and hoisted these guys up inside through

1738
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 1: the dressing room window, which which I love. They were

1739
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: a lot nicer than most of the Brits thought they

1740
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:34,439
Speaker 1: would be. They all assumed that the Ramones would be

1741
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 1: a gang from the Bronx or something. Johnny Rotten thought

1742
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:39,559
Speaker 1: that they were going to get beaten up by the Ramones,

1743
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 1: but he was pleasantly surprised, and then he spent the

1744
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:47,840
Speaker 1: rest of his musical career being the worst version of himself. Yeah,

1745
01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:48,519
Speaker 1: he sure did.

1746
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:53,160
Speaker 2: UK Punk was basically launched off the Ramones debut album.

1747
01:35:53,439 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 2: Joe Strummer said an end of the century. If that

1748
01:35:55,360 --> 01:35:57,920
Speaker 2: Ramones record hadn't existed, I don't know that we could

1749
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 2: have built a scene here because it filled of vital

1750
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:02,759
Speaker 2: gap between the death of the old pub rocking scene

1751
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 2: and the advent of punk. When he first talked to

1752
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:07,040
Speaker 2: them in seventy six, he was worried that his band's

1753
01:36:07,080 --> 01:36:09,639
Speaker 2: musicianship was still too rough for them to start recording.

1754
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:14,160
Speaker 2: Johnny Ramone responded, are you kidding? We're lousy. We can't play.

1755
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:16,000
Speaker 2: If you wait until you can play, you'll be too

1756
01:36:16,080 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 2: old to get up there. We sting, really, but it's great.

1757
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 2: Sid Vicious was supposedly obsessed with the band and learned

1758
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:26,519
Speaker 2: how to play whatever baar rudiments of bass he did

1759
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 2: acquire by playing along with the debut and one of

1760
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:32,440
Speaker 2: the earliest and most iconic power pop punk bands, The Buzzcocks,

1761
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:34,360
Speaker 2: worked up their own cover of Judy as a punk

1762
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:37,360
Speaker 2: after hearing it. Brian James of The Damned told The

1763
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:41,519
Speaker 2: Guardian those July seventy six, Ramon's gigs were mesmerizing. We

1764
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:44,080
Speaker 2: got a copy of their album early on Me and

1765
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:48,680
Speaker 2: Damned drummer Rat Scabies, my favorite punk rock nickname ever,

1766
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 2: listened to it after we'd drunk a few bottles of

1767
01:36:51,400 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 2: Carlis Brown, a heavy morphine based cough medicine. We thought

1768
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:59,959
Speaker 2: this is good, hilarious.

1769
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:02,519
Speaker 1: Craig Leon went on to have quite a career in

1770
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:06,040
Speaker 1: classical music of all genres. Was hanging out with renowned

1771
01:37:06,080 --> 01:37:10,240
Speaker 1: tenor Luciano Pavarotti in two thousand when the singer told him, hey,

1772
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:12,920
Speaker 1: he was interested in recording an album of soccer chance,

1773
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:17,519
Speaker 1: which let's table that for a moment, because that's insane.

1774
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:21,120
Speaker 1: Leon took the opportunity to play him blitz Creak Bop,

1775
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:24,960
Speaker 1: which he said Pavarotti loved and started singing along to

1776
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:29,280
Speaker 1: which regretfully, I don't believe there is a recording of.

1777
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 2: He who it's like when he does perfect day. Most importantly, though,

1778
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,719
Speaker 2: the record is in the Library of Congress Good.

1779
01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:45,840
Speaker 1: I love the line that Joey wrote to be read

1780
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 1: at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony

1781
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:50,479
Speaker 1: that took place a year after he died in two

1782
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:54,400
Speaker 1: thousand and one. We always loved each other, even when

1783
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:58,240
Speaker 1: we weren't civil to each other. In that way, we

1784
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:02,040
Speaker 1: were truly brothers. Well said, yeah, I.

1785
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:05,560
Speaker 2: Mean you can see here at the bottom. I was

1786
01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 2: typing something so that one of my coworkers would not

1787
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:09,639
Speaker 2: look at me as they exit.

1788
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 1: I forgot that was there. And in that spirit, oh yeah,

1789
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:21,360
Speaker 1: Iigel's got another thing to say. No, he sure doesn't.

1790
01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:24,200
Speaker 1: He'll have a nice outra Oh no, I don't.

1791
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:28,600
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I hope everybody who listens to

1792
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:32,960
Speaker 2: the Ramones gets a combination of either that I can

1793
01:38:33,080 --> 01:38:35,479
Speaker 2: do this and then they want to do it, or

1794
01:38:35,880 --> 01:38:40,000
Speaker 2: they get some distant shimmering memory of what rock and

1795
01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:44,040
Speaker 2: roll originally was, or at least the actual animating spirit

1796
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:48,000
Speaker 2: of it, like whatever it stands for nowadays, it was

1797
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 2: fun and goofy and simple and pure, and it's great

1798
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:56,640
Speaker 2: that they left us with something that expresses that.

1799
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:03,080
Speaker 1: And that's all well, folks. The Ramones were bad at

1800
01:39:03,200 --> 01:39:05,040
Speaker 1: ending their songs, so are we.

1801
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 2: So are we.

1802
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:12,639
Speaker 1: That we should have opened with that? We really should.

1803
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:15,720
Speaker 1: I know that.

1804
01:39:19,680 --> 01:39:22,519
Speaker 2: This has been too much information. I'm Alex Heigel and

1805
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:24,960
Speaker 2: I'm Jordan Runtalg. We'll catch you next time.

1806
01:39:30,160 --> 01:39:32,599
Speaker 1: Too Much Information was a production of iHeart Radio.

1807
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:34,800
Speaker 2: The show's executive producers.

1808
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:37,799
Speaker 1: Are Noel Brown and Jordan Runtalk. The show's supervising producer

1809
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 1: is Michael Alder June.

1810
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 2: The show was researched, written and hosted by Jordan Runtalg

1811
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 2: and Alex Heigel.

1812
01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:46,679
Speaker 1: With original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra.

1813
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:49,120
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

1814
01:39:49,160 --> 01:39:52,120
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts and iHeartRadio, visit the

1815
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:55,439
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1816
01:39:55,479 --> 01:40:05,400
Speaker 1: favorite shows. Clatland at Clack Bass and Ta