1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. It is Saturday Classic Time. And then, just 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: just in case you have not heard of this yet, 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: this is an episode from our archive that we are 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: sharing again over the weekend to help newer listeners to 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: the show get a taste of our back catalog. If 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: you have listened to all of the podcast episodes already 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: and you are down for a real listen, this is 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: for you too, so welcome. Hey, newsflash, cheese is delicious 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: so good. I don't think most people would be surprised 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: by that information. Uh and just like everything else on earth, though, 11 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: it has a history all its own. This episode originally 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: aired in February, but the story of how cheese came 13 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: to be a staple of the human diet is just 14 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: as delicious today as it was four years ago. Maybe 15 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: grab some delicious bread or whatever else sounds yummy. We 16 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: heard from listeners when this episode first aired that it 17 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: made them quite hungry and join us for a little 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: bit of cheese history. Welcome to Stuff you missed in 19 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: history class from how Stuff Works dot com. Hi, and 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I am Tracy V. Wilson and 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying, and today we're going to talk about 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: something we both love so much. Is it's like one 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: of our favoritest things. It is it is cheese. Cheese 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: has a nine thousand year history and the varieties that 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: we have of it today are mostly the products of 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: little tweaks that people have made throughout history for one 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: reason or another. Um. Basically, every cheese that we have 28 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: today has some kind of story to tell about where 29 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: it came from that's tied to the animals that were 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: being raised, what the weather and climate were like, the 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: people making the cheese, whether it had to be stored 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: or shipped or anything like that. UM. A lot of 33 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: these refinements come straight from human ingenuity and cure reosity, 34 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: but it's also a very necessity is the mother of 35 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: invention kind of story. Making cheese is a balancing act 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: with milk and how much moisture, salt, and bacteria are 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: in that milk, and what people's lives were like when 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: they were trying to make cheese. So I'm excited and 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting from an anthropological standpoint because as 40 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: people have spread out, cheese went with them. So it 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: really has um brought its own flavor to be punny. Unfortunately, 42 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: of two various cultures, Like cheese informs cultures in an 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: interesting way. Hand the cultures informed the cheese. Yes, I 44 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: love it. I did not mean for that to be 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: a pun, but that's what came out. We're being all 46 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: puney and reciprocal in the cheese cycle. So here's the 47 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: legend of where cheese came from. And and there are 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: a couple of problems with this legend. Uh that gets 49 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: it gets passed around, it's it's fact. So according to 50 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: the lore, someone, a person in some Arab country was 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: traveling a very long way carrying milk in a skin 52 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: that was made from an animal's stomach um. And when 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: he got ready to take a drink of milk, he 54 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: discovered it had curdled into cheese. Uh. This may have 55 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: been how people discovered rennet, which is the an enzyme 56 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,959 Speaker 1: from animal stomach that is used to make cheese. But 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: it's probably not where cheese came from for a couple 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: of reasons. One is that before people started eating cheese, 59 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: milk was pretty much just for babies because adult humans 60 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: could not digest lactose um, they couldn't make lactase, which 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: is the enzyme that breaks up breaks down lactose after 62 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: they were babies. So unless this guy was traveling a 63 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: long way with a baby, he didn't really have a 64 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: good reason to be carrying a skin of milk with him. 65 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: Or maybe he was going to visit a baby. Maybe, 66 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: but maybe people didn't often carry milk around in skins 67 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: because it was a high risk of spoilage. It really 68 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: milk was consumed fresh and only buy babies until after 69 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: cheese was discovered slash invented. A more likely scenario is 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: that people discovered that if you left milk out, it 71 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: would solidify and coagulate, and if you've worked at it 72 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: a little bit, you can separate that into curds and 73 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: way and it's not far to get from that to cheese. 74 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: So that's a little more likely than the animal skin 75 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: carrying story. Just keep thinking about cheese. So the more 76 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: likely history, uh, you know, by about seven thousand BC, 77 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: people living in the Fertile Crescent had started to domesticate 78 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: animals and they were cultivating plants, so they had sheep 79 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: and goats, and goats in particular were used. Uh. They 80 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: were accustomed to living in relatively confined spaces like caves, 81 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: so they would have been very easy to domesticate at 82 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,559 Speaker 1: that point. If you look at evidence from that long ago, 83 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: the goats and sheep that were being kept were probably 84 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: more about and meat than milk, because there wasn't an 85 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: overwhelming number of female animals versus male animals. Um. They 86 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: also look at what ages the animals were its slaughter. 87 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: Farming for wool also would have come later, because sheep 88 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,679 Speaker 1: that far in the past didn't really have usable wool 89 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: as their hair um, so the earliest sheep probably mostly 90 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: used as a source of meat. So several things had 91 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: to have had to happen for people to wind up 92 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: making cheese. They had to have a reason to want 93 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: to pasture animals and use pastured animals as a as 94 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: a food source. They had to have animals that could 95 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: give them more milk than their own young needed, which 96 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: would have taken some generations of breeding to get animals 97 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: that produce more milk. I love this one. They had 98 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: to know how to milk the animals. That had to 99 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: have been an interesting trial and error yes, well, and 100 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: then the animals had to allow themselves to be milked 101 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: by people, which is another thing. You know, animals can 102 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: be very obstinate, so this is another thing that would 103 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: have required some effort. And lastly, they would have needed 104 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: a way to store the milk, but as we talked 105 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: about before, there are some difficulties with using skins for 106 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: storing milk. This worked out to be pottery um or 107 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: more specifically, the discovery that you could apply heat to 108 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: clay and turn it into pottery. And so once we 109 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: had all those things together at the same place at 110 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: the same time, people were able to develop cheese, and 111 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: this happened at about b C in the western half 112 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: of what is Turkey today. We can look at shards 113 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: of pottery from that era and know that people were 114 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: raising animals for milk because there are milk fat residues 115 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: and the pottery shards um and the proportion of male 116 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: and female animals also changes in the anthropological record at 117 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: that point, so you would could because you would need 118 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: more females to be produced in the milk. Yes. Now, 119 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: probably this milk started out as a food source for babies, 120 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, since humans had not adapted their 121 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: ability to process lactose. Uh. But they would have quickly 122 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: figured out since they didn't have refrigeration, that that milk 123 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: sitting out was going to coagulate, and that they could 124 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: turn up the curds and way when they started. Most 125 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: of the lactose stays in the way when you separate 126 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: the curds from the way, so adults could eat the 127 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: curds and get all the nutritional value with either no 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: problems or fewer problems. From a digestive standpoint, Yes, from 129 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: a digestive standpoint, if you or anyone you know is 130 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: lactose intolerant, you have a sense of what that is 131 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: all about. Um. So, curds were a really valuable source 132 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: of nourishments, so people had a good incentive to figure 133 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: out an easy way to separate curds from way, and 134 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: this came in the form of perforated ceramic canister. We 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: have lots of archaeological evidence for people using ceramic containers 136 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: with UH with perforations in them to separate curds and 137 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: whey uh. There's also been some series about woven baskets 138 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: as well, right, but those don't really scrutiny long term. 139 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: They don't hold up as well over thousands of years, 140 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: so we don't have as much concrete evidence of whether 141 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: people were using woven baskets to make cheese by separating 142 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: curds and whey um. Based on the fat residues in pottery, 143 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: we think people also figured out how to make things 144 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: like butter at about the same time. The earliest cheeses 145 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: were all They were fresh cheeses. They were more like 146 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: today's ricotta or other soft kind of curdy cheeses. People 147 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: would have eaten them quickly since they would spoil without refrigeration. UM. 148 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: They also may have sealed and buried these cheeses to 149 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: try to keep them out of the sun, keep them 150 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: a little cooler, and they would also the curds could 151 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: dry in the sun. UH And it's possible that rennant 152 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: the enzymes from animal stomach is used to ferment, were 153 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: discovered at this time as well. The record isn't super clear. 154 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: It's not as easy to find residue of something on 155 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: an animal skin that's broken down over time as it 156 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: would be ceramic, but it's a likelihood. So really, cheesemaking 157 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: then spread out from the Fertile Crescent. We have lots 158 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: of pottery shards as evidence that showed the progression of cheese, 159 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: along with lots and lots of other things spreading out 160 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: UH during the Neolithic migration, people were making cheese and 161 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: butter from the milk of cows, goats, and sheep um. 162 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: And one of the most recent discoveries of this progression 163 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: is from not too long ago, and it was a 164 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: seven thousand, five hundred year old piece of pottery that 165 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: was almost certainly used to make cheese and what is 166 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: Poland today. They did the same thing of looking at 167 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: the residues that were on the inside of the pottery 168 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: and what they were made of. And so for many years, 169 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: even with this uh migrational progression outward from where it started, 170 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: the cheeses still remained like the fresh acid coagulated and 171 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: rennet coagulated cheeses. So they still hadn't gotten to the 172 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: aged cheese concepts. And in some parts of the world 173 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: that that's that continued to be for always what people 174 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: were making. An example is in India. India has a 175 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: really old tradition of using dairy products with lots of 176 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,119 Speaker 1: ghee which is clarified butter, and using kurds in their cuisine. 177 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: But the only cheese that's indigenous to India is paneer, 178 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: which is a soft cheese meant to be eaten fresh. 179 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: There are lots of different theories for why India did 180 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: not develop aged cheeses, and one of them is that 181 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: there is such a focus on food purity in religious 182 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: texts in that part of the world that people were 183 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: probably not down with the idea of letting things mold 184 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: on purpose and then eating them to Uh. The climate 185 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: in in India is also not great for the controlled 186 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: spoilage that is really what aging cheese is all about. Yeah, 187 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm imagining that conversation. No, no, it will 188 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: be delicious, No, it will be rotted. Uh. But thankfully 189 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: that worked out. Uh. And as soon as cheese became 190 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: an important important as part of people's diets, it also 191 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: took on religious significance. Offerings of cheese were made to 192 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: the gods, for example, the Sumerian goddess and Nana who 193 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: got daily offerings of cheese and butter, and a number 194 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: of Greek gods and goddesses who had cheese among their offerings. 195 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: There are also lots and lots of references to cheese 196 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: in many religious texts from all over the world. Uh. 197 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: It didn't take long though, before people started seeing the 198 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: need to be able to store cheese to eat it later. 199 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: Instead of being able to make it and consume it 200 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,719 Speaker 1: within a day or two. So around four b c. E, 201 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: Hittite writing starts describing more thaie of cheese that sound 202 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: a little bit more like the harder cheeses that we 203 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: have today. We don't have really good evidence of all 204 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: of them. We have more descriptions in writing, but they 205 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: include descriptions like scoured cheese and hard soldier cheese. So 206 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: there's the logical conclusion that they developed ways of aging 207 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: the cheese to make it harder to take down the 208 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: water content and the cheese so that it would last 209 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: longer um and being able to form a rind on 210 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: the cheese. But we don't have a lot of, like 211 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: very clear pottery evidence to go with that. It's mostly 212 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: written descriptions that people are drawing conclusions from. The first 213 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: recorded shipment of cheese took place in twelve through the 214 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: Mediterranean Sea, which is further evidence that people have developed 215 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: cheeses that would keep. At that point, most of the 216 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: cheeses that were being shipped around were probably brind cheeses 217 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: like fetta that were stored in ceramic jars. And the 218 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: reason that even though these cheeses are very soft and wet. 219 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: The reason that they last for longer is that there's 220 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: lots and lots of salt in them. Um, if you 221 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: dry salt white cheese that has lots of moisture in it, 222 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: the way starts to come out and mix with the 223 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: salt and it makes this brine that keeps the cheese 224 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: fresher for a longer period of time. For Fetah, which 225 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: is delicious because I'm literally just rubbing my tummy and 226 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: licking my lips over here. That was one of the 227 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: hardest parts of researching this podcast is when I when 228 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: I got to a couple of the cheeses that are 229 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: delicious and also very salty, and I wanted some real bad. 230 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: So Grease became an important area for the development of cheese. 231 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: And just like with the earliest cheesemakers, the Greeks were 232 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: making fresh cheeses for daily eating, but they were also 233 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: exporting cheese, so they were developing these harder, hardier varieties 234 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: of cheese that could survive voyages. Yes, we have a 235 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: wonderful glimpse of how these hard cheeses were being made 236 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: in Grease, thanks in part to Odyssease's encounter with the 237 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: Cyclops in the Odyssey. Um. Even though that is a 238 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: work of fiction, we're pretty much seeing a play by 239 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: play of how people were making cheese at a time. Uh. 240 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: The Cyclops coagulated the milk, probably using rennet and maybe 241 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: also fix sapp and then he pressed and dried what 242 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: he got from that. Uh. The Odyssey doesn't mention that 243 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: he salted it, but probably based on other evidence at 244 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: the time, he would have been salted what he got 245 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: from that process, um, And he would have pressed it 246 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: and let it dry, and it would have formed a 247 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: rind as it dried. There were drying racks described in 248 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: Cyclops's cave, and so the result of this would have 249 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: been a dried pecorino or a caprino cheese. And this 250 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: is probably the first description of a rennet coagulated cheese 251 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: in literature. And the takeaway from the Odyssey is that 252 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: by ancient Greece people had figured out how to coagulate 253 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: press in salt cheeses in this way that would make 254 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: a grind and would be suitable for aging, which is 255 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: so fabulous that it's in the Odyssey, of all places, 256 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: this record of cheesemaking. Centuries later, people in Grease added 257 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: a cooking step also which allowed cheeses with an even 258 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: lower moisture content, which would make them last even longer. 259 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: And in Sicily, hard cheeses became wildly popular and by 260 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: the fourth century b C. Their native cuisine at that 261 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: point was full of grated cheese and cheese sauces. It 262 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: was so prevalent that there were cheese naysayers. They were 263 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: They were sort of the the Sicilian fourth century BC 264 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: version of the angry food critic, who would be like, 265 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: why does there have to be cheese sauce on everything? 266 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: Just let the fish stand on its own, because it's 267 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: so delicious, it's so yummy. So cheesemaking in Rome started 268 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: a lot like it did in Grease, with people making 269 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: heat coagulated fresh cheeses using these vessels which I called 270 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: milk boilers. So while the cheeses were these coagulated kurds 271 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: and whay kind of process, Uh, the vessels that they 272 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: were using were kind of unique to uh to what's 273 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: Italy today. Um. Based on the distribution of these milk boilers, 274 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: which were ceramic things that kept the milk from foaming 275 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: over the top. Uh, it's clear that making soft cheeses 276 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: were was an important staple in the Bronze Age all 277 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: over Rome. These were actually still in use in Italy 278 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: as ceramic milk boilers until the nineteenth century, and then 279 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: metal ones became in more common use after that point. 280 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: There is an interesting symbiosis um that happened between cheesemaking 281 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: and pig farming in Rome. The way that they were 282 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: extracting during the ricotta process was actually a great food 283 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: for fouttening up pigs and making them also delicious, So 284 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: they would milk lots of animals, get lots of milk, 285 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: separate the curds from the way, feed the way to pigs, 286 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: and then have work to eat. Uh as the Greek influence, 287 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: so we had just talked about how in Greece they 288 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: were making these smaller, harder cheeses. So as Greek influence 289 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: spread in Rome, hard Jesus did as well, and by 290 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: the seventh century BC, grated cheeses were a big part 291 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: of the diet in Rome also. And there are many 292 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: many Roman writers who put together very detailed agricultural manuals, 293 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: and if you care to do so, you can read 294 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: so much about how people were making cheese in ancient room. 295 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: Thanks to these writers. UH and in Rome people would 296 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: raise large flocks of sheep to produce both cheese and wool. 297 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: At that point they had developed sheep farming that was 298 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: geared more towards bowl production, and they used the way 299 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: left over again from the cheesemaking to feed the pigs. 300 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: And they also started experimenting. And this is where it 301 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: gets really good for me personally, with smoked cheeses uh, 302 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: and also cooked cheeses and much larger cheeses than the 303 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: smaller sized pecorino and caprinos. Uh. Those stay small so 304 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: that the the milk and fluid from the middle can 305 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: evaporate more and they'll keep longer. But then bigger cheeses 306 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: became technologically more doable. Right. The most famous giant thing 307 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: of cheese in in ancient room was called La Luna. 308 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: Probably the accounts at the time are really exaggerated because 309 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: they're described it as this like giant thing of cheese. Um. 310 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: It was probably not as giant as it has often described. 311 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: But people were using cooking and high pressure pressing to 312 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: get more of the liquid out of the middle so 313 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: that they were able to make bigger and bigger cheeses. 314 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: Is how how big is it described? Could a family 315 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: afore live in it um. One writer described it as 316 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: being able to provide lunches for hundreds of your servants 317 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: and from just one. Probably not actually that big, uh. 318 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: Some of this innovation of of combining cooking and high 319 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: pressure pressing may have come from the Celts, who were 320 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: living in the Alpine regions. They also were known as 321 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: great cheesemakers, and they had been making bigger cheeses than 322 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: the little ones that had been coming out of Greece. 323 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: The Celts may have also started the practice of salting 324 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: the smaller kurds before pressing them together into one larger cheese, 325 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: so again the salt was making it into the middle 326 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: of a bigger cheese cylinder and preventing spoilage. I like 327 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: how it's all about making the cheese bigger and bigger. 328 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: So much about making the cheese bigger, And there's obstacles 329 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: when you're working with those kinds of more manual processes 330 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: to try to get them middle of the cheese dry 331 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: enough so that it doesn't spoil in the middle while 332 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: the outside is drying. Now, So where what we've gotten 333 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: up to you at this point is the end of 334 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire before the Roman Empire fell, it spread 335 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: military outposts and agricultural manner estates all over the place. 336 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: Both the military outposts and the manner estates had dairying 337 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: and cheesemaking tools, so when the Roman Empire fell, all 338 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: of that stuff was left behind that people then continued 339 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: to use to make their own new types of cheeses, 340 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: and those new types developed all sort of on their 341 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: own trajectories, based on the factors that we've already talked about, 342 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,239 Speaker 1: Like there was human curiosity and ingenuity, but also, um, 343 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: you know what was available nearby, you know, weather conditions, uh, 344 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: what the people that were there already knew, etcetera. Uh. 345 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: So this continued to be true even as the manners 346 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 1: broke up into tinier farmers where people only had one 347 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: or two animals instead of like a whole herd to 348 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: produce cheese from. Right. So in in France, uh, soft 349 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: ripened peasant cheeses began to develop. This was basically using 350 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: the same cheesemaking methods that had been common in the Mediterranean, 351 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: but in the cooler climate of northern France. People could 352 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: hang onto their milk for a couple of days before 353 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: they made cheese out of it, so in the Mediterranean 354 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: that would have spoiled almost immediately, but where the weather 355 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: was cooler, you could milk your cow and then milk 356 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: your cow again the next day, and then maybe one 357 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: more day after that and put that all together to 358 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: make cheese out of and the cheet the milk from 359 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 1: the first day of milking at that point would have 360 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: more lactic acid bacteria in it. Being able to put 361 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: all of that together and then put what you got 362 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: as a result into a nice cool cellar meant that 363 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: you could control the spoilage that was going on. And 364 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: that's how friends cheesemakers were coming up with bloomy rind cheeses, 365 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: lactic cheeses, and washed rind cheeses. These were all things 366 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: that were having bacterial activity going on in the inside 367 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: of the cheese that was creating this rind that is 368 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: often edible, that is basically mold. Oh, you're making the 369 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: most hungry things delicious. Fault uh. And while manners uh, 370 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: we're crumbling into smaller farms in other parts of Europe. 371 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: In England, many of them stayed intact until the end 372 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: of the Middle Ages, so many of those manners had 373 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: like a dairy maid who would supervise all of the 374 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: dairy ing, and most of the cheese in those manners 375 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: came from the sheep rather than the cows for most 376 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: of the Middle Ages, and they continued to follow and 377 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: refine many of the more hard cheese trends that the 378 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: Romans had been using, so they have their whole own 379 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: cheese culture. Again, not meaning to be punny, but they're 380 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: our own methodologies and approach to it happening as well 381 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: right uh in the thirteenth century. So part way through 382 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, the sheep who were being used for 383 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: milking were also used for wool, and the cows used 384 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: for milking were also used for meat and leather. But 385 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: right around the thirteenth century people started to divide that 386 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: up a little bit, so sheep were there for wool, 387 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: there were dairy cows who were just for milking, and 388 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: then there were other cows that were being used for 389 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: their meat and their their leather. Um. This is also 390 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: about the time that the English dairying started to move 391 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: two cows from sheep because cow's milk separates more easily 392 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: into cream to make butter out of, and people were 393 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: becoming very fond of butter in England, a series of 394 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: illnesses and really wet seasons, which are bad for sheep, 395 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: also brought down the sheep population, making the use of 396 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: cow's milk to make cheese a little bit more of 397 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: a necessity. And in the mountains of Europe in the 398 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, uh so the mountainous reasons, cheeses had to 399 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: be very sturdy and rugged, both because you had to 400 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: bring them down out of the mountains and later export them. Uh. 401 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: And for example, one of my very favorite cheeses so yummy, Oh, 402 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: I love the stuff. Uh. The animals were generally pastured 403 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: up on the mountains uh, and then the people working 404 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: with them would live there with the animals, make the 405 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: cheese there, and then it would have to travel downward. 406 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: This not that the people who were making cheese and 407 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: the Alps had to work around the lack of salt, 408 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: because to get salt to the animals where you were 409 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: doing the milking and making the cheese, you would have 410 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: to transport it up there, and that would be difficult 411 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: and expensive. So cheesemakers and the alps figured out ways 412 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: to cut the curds to make them smaller and cook 413 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: more of the moisture out of them. And put the 414 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: curds into a more wheel shaped form. A lot of 415 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 1: the cheeses before this point were more like cylinders than wheels, 416 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: so putting it into more of a wheel shaped form 417 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: would give more surface area for better evaporation. So some 418 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: of these Alpine cheese is actually had holes or eyes, 419 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: and that was from the collection of carbon dioxide during aging. 420 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: There was bacteria in there that would flourish in those 421 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: conditions and create these little pockets. Uh, they would give 422 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: off carbon dioxide as they reproduced, and that carbon dioxide 423 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: would collect. Yeah, it would collect in little holes, so 424 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: that the holes that you think of in Swiss cheese 425 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: that's from bacteria propagating cheese is really just disgusting and 426 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: so good I can get past any of the disgusting parts, 427 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: and that's actually incidentally what gives it that sort of 428 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: nutty flavor, right, so I'll take it. Another mountain cheese 429 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: that came from the Middle Ages is rogue furt, and 430 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: the veins and roque fruit cheese are from Penicillium roque fortie, 431 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: which grows in the caves where it was aged. Real 432 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: rogue fruit cheese today comes from these same caves where 433 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: it was originally aged in the Middle Ages and well 434 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: up infested with the s bacteria that gave it its 435 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: look and its flavor. Parmesan also came about during Middle Ages, 436 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: though it was not from the mountains, and the techniques 437 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: used to produce it are common in the mountains, but 438 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: there was plenty of salt in the Po River valley 439 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: where it originated, so they didn't have quite the same 440 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: limitations in terms of resource availability. But it uses techniques 441 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: very similar to the Alpine cheese, is just with the 442 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: salt that the Alpine people didn't have. And this is 443 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: where I wanted some really salty parmesan so bad yesterday 444 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: when I was working on the cheese. So by the 445 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, a lot of the cheeses that we eat 446 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: today had had been developed, at least in their earlier forms. 447 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: I mean, there are many revisions and tweaks to cheeses 448 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: that have happened since then, but lots and lots of 449 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: the ones that we are most familiar with existed in 450 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: some form by the end of the Middle Ages. One 451 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: exception is the cheese that comes from Holland, where commercial 452 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: dairying did not even start and till the fifteenth century. 453 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: Because the land and the climate were just not right 454 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: for it. There had been some very small farming and 455 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: dairy operations on the coast since the Neolithic period, though, 456 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: but just not enough to really form an industry around it. 457 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: After the fall of the Roman Empire, the aristocracy in 458 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: Holland started trying to reclaim Holland's frontier and turn it 459 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: into workable land. They did not have very many people 460 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: to try to do this, it was not a vastly 461 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: settled area, so they would reward peasants who would clear 462 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: and work land with big grants of land, and what 463 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: they were basically doing is trying to turn bogs into 464 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: farmlands by using pumps and dikes to get all the 465 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: water out of it. Um As they were able to 466 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: reclaim more land, they started by growing grains and then 467 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: eventually moved from growing food to dairy and then so 468 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: many cheeses. The dairy farms actually became really really specialized 469 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: and they put out an insane variety of cheese is 470 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: through various innovations in packaging, equipment, et cetera. Once they 471 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: had the technology, they went wild, sort of expanding and 472 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: customizing it, which I love English cheesemakers at the time, 473 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: we're responding to demand, while Holland didn't have those constraints, 474 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: so they could just invent new cheese that people wanted. 475 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: So that's where we get an assortment of deliciousness, including 476 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: edam gouda um. Different kinds of packaging came from that 477 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: sort of pocket of innovation, the round instead of square wheels. 478 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: Thank you Holland. There was a whole in England at 479 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: that particular point there was this whole kind of drama 480 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: going on with cheese. There was a cheesemonger's essentially union 481 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: that was recognized by the government that had been really 482 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: controlling that cheese making around London, and then that went 483 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: horribly awry and they had to start looking to other 484 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: parts of England to make cheese, and that led to 485 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: basically the whole of English cheesemaking being about how do 486 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: we meet the demands of London. Holland did not have 487 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: this problem. They kind of had a the rich luxury 488 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: of a playground relate. It just kind of developed cheese 489 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: they thought would be neat. So when you see these 490 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: these cheeses that have really lovely colored coatings, there's sort 491 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: of like a firm and resilient nuttiness to them. A 492 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: lot of that is coming from the combination of what 493 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: the climate is like in Holland and then the fact 494 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: that they sort of just got to go, let's think 495 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: up some new stuff. Let's see what happens if we 496 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: wash this cheese with this other animal product. Let's think 497 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: up cheese so good. Uh So, eventually colonists brought cheese 498 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: and cheesemaking pretty much everywhere that people were colonizing. She's 499 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: traveled with everybody because apparently a lot of people loved 500 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: it then too, Yes, and it's a very valuable new 501 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: food source. I mean it's it started as sort of 502 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: an necessity of how can we make this milk not 503 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: immediately be bad? And then people discovered that, yeah, this 504 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: is actually a good source of nourishment in a lot 505 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: of ways. Uh And the Industrial Revolution really changed things 506 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: because it mechanized a lot of these processes that had 507 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: been kind of what we would consider artisan handcrafted. Right. So, 508 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: whereas before the Industrial Revolution, making cheese was highly highly 509 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: dependent upon the weather and the climate and the altitude 510 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: and the everything, um, the Industrial Revolution made it possible 511 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: for people to kind of replicate those conditions in other places. 512 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: And so rather than saying, hey, okay, we have cheddar 513 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: cheese that we're making, and we're going to try to 514 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: figure out how to make cheddar cheese approximately in this 515 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: not very English climate, uh, and then winding up with 516 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: some other cheese, it's becomes a lot more possible during 517 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution to say, Okay, we're going to replicate 518 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: this technique and also replicate the conditions that were present 519 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: elsewhere to make this cheese that that will be more 520 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: like what we are thinking about from where we used 521 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: to live. And in the US, you know, there wasn't 522 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: the long term cultural heritage that Europe had going into 523 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: cheese development, and the cheese factories just kind of blossomed. Uh. 524 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: People had I mean they had families, and people had 525 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: their family heritage and they knew how their grandmother had 526 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: made cheese before the family had made their way to 527 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: the to the colonies. But there was not quite the 528 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: institution of cheesemaking as this long many many generations of 529 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: things in one particular place. So the US became a 530 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: huge center of making an exporting cheese, and in some 531 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: cases traditional techniques have kind of died out because of 532 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: the mechanization mechanization as well as supply and demand. Mozzarella 533 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: in most places as not made the same way it 534 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: once was. Now it's it's the mozzarella was sort of 535 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: a handcrafted cheese in Italy that was made in very 536 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: small batches, and you can make it in a big 537 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: factory with machines, which a lot of the cheese today 538 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: big factory with machines rather than the previous handcrafted sort 539 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: of small batches. As we've seen with many things. There 540 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: is of course now an artisan cheese movement where people 541 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: are making things in small batches using the same basic 542 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: techniques that people were using hundreds or thousands of years ago. 543 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: M I just want to think about cheese for a 544 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: little while longer. Right now, you have today a lot 545 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: of efforts to sort of label the cheeses as quote 546 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: the real thing. So like roquefort, you can only call 547 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: a cheese roquefort if it was actually made in those caves. 548 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: People can apply eximate roquefort like cheeses elsewhere, but it 549 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: can't carry the name, right, it cannot carry the name. 550 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: There are protected designation of Origin or p d O 551 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: labels that label where the cheese came from. Or the 552 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: geographical indication or the the g I label of where 553 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: the cheese came from. And it's sort of like wines 554 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: and how Champagne's are only supposed to come from Champagne 555 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: and not California sparkling wines. Not everyne right, and not 556 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: every blue cheese is rot. Oh. I love cheese. It's 557 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: hard not to wax rhapsodic about cheese. There is so much. 558 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: That's when when I said, hey, let's do a podcast 559 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: about cheese. I think what you said is I could 560 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: do I can't remember which cheese it was that you said. 561 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: We were like, I could do a whole podcast about 562 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: probably probably or she toast, which is the Norwegian cheese 563 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: that I'm a big fan of. I think it's usually 564 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: called brunost over there. We call it. That's kind of 565 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: the what it's usually exported as. But it's phenomenal and 566 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: it has a sweet, nutty it's a brown cheese. It's phenomenal. Yes, 567 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: So don't say that a lot. There is so much 568 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: to learn about cheese beyond this sort of the origins 569 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: of cheese is that we've talked about today. We will 570 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: link to lots of places to learn about more about 571 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: cheese and our show notes when we put those up 572 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: after this podcast comes out. Hey, since these episodes that 573 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: we're sharing our past classics, we have some updated information 574 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: that will supersede the contact stuff you've heard before. If 575 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: you want to email us, our email address is History 576 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: Podcast at houst works dot com, and you can find 577 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: us across the spectrum of social media as miss did History. 578 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 1: You can also find us at missed in history dot com, 579 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: and you can visit our parent company, how stu Works, 580 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: at how stu works dot com. For more on this 581 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how staff works dot com.