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Speaker 1: If this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything.

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Speaker 2: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 2: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 2: for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 2: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 2: dot com, f I R S T L I T

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Speaker 2: E dot com. Before we start today's show, we'd like

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Speaker 2: to touch on, uh, doctor Randall's hair a little bit. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you got screwed at the barber.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to say screwed, but there's a miscommunication.

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Speaker 3: I was going for a more minimalist touch up and

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Speaker 3: we ended up.

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Speaker 2: You wanted to keep your length in the back.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to keep my length in the back,

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Speaker 4: and I was.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 4: I'd sort of made peace with it.

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Speaker 3: And then Seth showed me the other day a photo

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Speaker 3: from when we were out doing the SIG shoot and

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Speaker 3: I saw that.

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Speaker 2: Flow and I just just blown in the wind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I missed it so badly.

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Speaker 2: The reason I winded you talk about that is Corey

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Speaker 2: just had interesting observation that there's a river you like

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Speaker 2: to fish, and you say that the river never fishes

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Speaker 2: good two days in a row. Yeah, So if you

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Speaker 2: have a great day, you know not to go back.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you better pick another stream for sure.

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Speaker 2: Because it can't fish two days in a row.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he's proposing that if you get a great haircut somewhere,

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Speaker 2: don't go back because it's gonna not be good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because one of the odds, lightning's not gonna strike twice,

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Speaker 2: never in the same spot. Hell about fishing, it goes

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Speaker 2: in weeks, week on, week off. So if you're like,

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Speaker 2: if people are up fishing at our fish shack and

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Speaker 2: you call up, the last thing you want to hear

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Speaker 2: because if you're going up, like let's say they're up

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Speaker 2: there last week of July, you're going first week August.

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Speaker 2: What you want? You think you want hot reports, You

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Speaker 2: don't want horrible report.

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Speaker 4: You make that phone call wanting some bitching and moaning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're like, oh my god, it's on fire.

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Speaker 2: You're like, I'm not even gonna go now. Yeah, because

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Speaker 2: this is gonna be the it'll die, it'll be the dead.

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Speaker 2: I'll be there for the dead week. You want it

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Speaker 2: to be that no one's catching nothing, then you're gonna

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Speaker 2: go up and have a phenomenal time. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: No, that's the same with this little riffle that I'm

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Speaker 5: speaking of. Just easty here. M.

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Speaker 2: You just winked at me. Does that mean it's not

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Speaker 2: easty here? No? Uh. Joined today by the esteemed professor,

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Speaker 2: former professor of American history, current author of all kinds

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Speaker 2: of books, New York Times best selling author Dan Floores.

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Speaker 2: It's been on the show a handful of times in

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Speaker 2: the past. I'll just come flat out and say, he's

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Speaker 2: my most He's my favorite historian, one of America's most

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Speaker 2: celebrated historians. Uh. Eleven books if you listen to a

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Speaker 2: Rogan's podcast. Dan's been on Rogan's podcast a couple of

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Speaker 2: times talking about his book as well. Started his career

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Speaker 2: as not started you were a writer but also a teacher. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I basically started as a freelance magazine writer before I

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Speaker 6: went off. And you know, I did the strange thing

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Speaker 6: of getting a PhD. Relate yeah, and becoming Yeah, you

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Speaker 6: guys can relate Randall can relate that know.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 2: Not only that, but I took when I was in

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Speaker 2: graduate school, I took a class with Professor Floories, and

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Speaker 2: Randall took presumably many classes, a handful of a handful

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Speaker 2: of classes. And now Dan is doing a were Dan

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Speaker 2: is doing a podcast our podcast network called The American

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Speaker 2: West with Dan floy'es. We're going to talk about some

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Speaker 2: of the themes that will emerge in that podcast. As

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Speaker 2: he tells a I would say an unconventional telling of

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Speaker 2: the American West. Don't get into enormous detail. But how

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Speaker 2: would you describe your approach because you were an environmental historian?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right. I trained to be an environmental historian.

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Speaker 6: And for people who don't know what that is, it's

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Speaker 6: basically somebody who studies and writes about and taught classes

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Speaker 6: too about the relationship between people and nature. So that's

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Speaker 6: a pretty big topic. You know, allows for a lot

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Speaker 6: of things, and what it doesn't do much because I

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Speaker 6: also taught the American West, it doesn't do much of

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Speaker 6: the standard American West stuff, you know. I mean I

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Speaker 6: never did really talk much about mining strikes and the

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Speaker 6: overall and trail migrations and Indian wars and gunfights and

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Speaker 6: all that. I was interested in in stuff that pertained

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Speaker 6: to the kind of environmental relationship between people and the

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Speaker 6: natural world in the West and in the country. And

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Speaker 6: so that's that's really what this podcast boils down to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fewer okay corrals and more more wildlife.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, yeah, it's.

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Speaker 2: Being a wildlife. Uh pigeon catching controversy in New York

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Speaker 2: And this makes sense to me. The price, Like my

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Speaker 2: boy sells pigeons to dog trainers.

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Speaker 7: Oh now he's now he's onto selling them.

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Speaker 2: Oh he's made he makes good money selling pigeons.

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Speaker 7: Oh yeah, No, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, this year he just did a if

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Speaker 2: you go from seven dollars to eight dollars, what percent

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Speaker 2: increases that.

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Speaker 4: That's a tough one to figure out.

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Speaker 2: One I told him, say tariffs did it?

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Speaker 7: And wait, how twelve? How much does he is that?

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Speaker 6: How much?

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Speaker 2: Your head?

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Speaker 6: Dan, I think that's right.

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Speaker 7: Wait does he is that? How much he sells them for?

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Speaker 2: He just he just he just uh he had a

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Speaker 2: new client mm hmm. And and he was saying what

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Speaker 2: because last year he was getting seven a piece and

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Speaker 2: he had a new client. He just threw out eight

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Speaker 2: and out of blank, take as many as I can get.

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Speaker 2: So point being, it doesn't surprise me. Now what what?

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Speaker 2: So he gets pigeons out of grain silos because guys

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Speaker 2: are storing grain. Last thing, you want his pigeons in

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Speaker 2: the grain. You know, you don't want I'm shitting in

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Speaker 2: the grain. So he gets them out of grain silos

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Speaker 2: and whatnot, out of barns and people use them for

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Speaker 2: dog training.

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Speaker 6: Oh I didn't.

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Speaker 7: I thought he got paid to capture them. I didn't

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Speaker 7: realize that he was turning them around.

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Speaker 2: He would pay to get him. Okay, but I'm saying,

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Speaker 2: picture now that a pigeons worth that amount of money. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Some guy has thought to himself apparently, well, not where

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Speaker 2: are there a lot of pigeons? And he has noted

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Speaker 2: that in Brooklyn there's a lot of pigeons, and some

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Speaker 2: guys are taking some industrial pigeon catching strategies to these

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Speaker 2: parks in Brooklyn, which is really causing a lot of

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Speaker 2: distress for logo pigeon lovers. It's a little bit weird

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Speaker 2: because I think that I don't know if New York does.

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Speaker 2: But there's a thing called a vatroll. There's a there's

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Speaker 2: a poison that municipalities will use on pigeons. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of like an un you know. So I think that

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Speaker 2: for them to see a guy jump out and net

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Speaker 2: a bunch, it's probably like doubt be disturbing by I mean,

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Speaker 2: if you looked at the darker side, there's like a

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Speaker 2: darker side the pigeon removal that they're probably not aware

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Speaker 2: of pigeons being a non native bird. But pitches have

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Speaker 2: been there. I mean the French delivered introduced pigeons along

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Speaker 2: the Saint Lawrence, I think the late fifteen hundred. I

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Speaker 2: mean there's been pigeons on the ground. Street pigeons. It's

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Speaker 2: Lenaian name. If you see a pigeon flying around town,

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Speaker 2: it's Lenaian name. Is Columba, Olivia, I believe is what

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Speaker 2: it is. And people are worked up because guys are

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Speaker 2: catching these things and they're probably like the guests are

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Speaker 2: selling them into the pigeon market. Some guy cleared one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty out of a park.

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Speaker 7: Bushwick. I thought this was going the direction of roller pigeons,

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Speaker 7: which is why I paid attention. Jordan Siller sent me this.

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Speaker 2: This is a dude selling. This is a dude selling

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Speaker 2: pigeons for some purpose. I used to on occasion when

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Speaker 2: I lived in Brooklyn and I would go down and

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Speaker 2: I would just nab them and put them in my pockets.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not kidding you. We would grab them and

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Speaker 2: we would make patas with them, me and my chef

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Speaker 2: buddy and I just put them right in my pockets.

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Speaker 2: We got all kinds of videos of it.

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Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, we need to put this together. This

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Speaker 7: is a new episode. Well, what what's the hand grabbing pigeons?

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Speaker 2: You just put a little bit of and you just

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Speaker 2: put them and I'd always want to leave the scene

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Speaker 2: with them alive. So we just put them in our

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Speaker 2: pockets and make little pat tays with them. Your pockets

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Speaker 2: all bounce garment is best for any kind of coat,

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Speaker 2: like a down puffy type, and put them in your pockets.

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Speaker 5: But uh, kangaroo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing that came mind, they came on here

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Speaker 2: if any person, like if you went to any I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't say any If you went to most wildlife managers

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Speaker 2: and you ask them if you could wave a magic

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Speaker 2: wand and it would make street pigeons disappear, they would

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Speaker 2: wave the wand. You know, but then you get into

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Speaker 2: like different things like I used to go to even

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Speaker 2: farmers and ranchers that like would hate wild pigs. But

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Speaker 2: you'd say, if I could wave a magic wand and

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Speaker 2: a wild pig would never ever ever again walk on

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Speaker 2: your property? Would you want me to wave it? And

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Speaker 2: they think and go, no, I just don't want as many,

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Speaker 2: you know. Uh, so that's going on there. You can

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Speaker 2: get stung though, if you're the guy doing this. Mm hmm,

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Speaker 2: if you're listening to you, if you're listening, they are

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Speaker 2: fixing to they're fixing to get you under animal cruelty.

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Speaker 5: So they haven't caught this person yet, huh. I wonder

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Speaker 5: how their diving.

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Speaker 2: But if he's getting let's say he's getting New York prices,

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Speaker 2: mm hmm.

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Speaker 7: I feel like he's getting.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, let's say he's getting ten bucks per Does

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Speaker 2: that mean Jimmy gets to I'm just saying he's making like,

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Speaker 2: you know, making money. Yeah, he's like the last of

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Speaker 2: the old New York market. Huns. Uh. There's the thing

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Speaker 2: I found out about Buddy Mine told me about it.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever heard old man Randall to ask you

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Speaker 2: about this?

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Speaker 7: We like started talking about it the other day.

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Speaker 2: The International Order of Saint Hubertus.

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Speaker 3: That's how I pronounce it not a expert though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how. This was never on my radarm.

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Speaker 2: You know why you don't know about it, same reason

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Speaker 2: I don't know about it.

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Speaker 4: I'm not a member.

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Speaker 2: You have to be asked.

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Speaker 6: To join.

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Speaker 2: The International Order of Saint Hubertus is a true nightly order.

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Speaker 2: I mean you can look at their website. They even

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Speaker 2: do that thing where like you'll have the first letter

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Speaker 2: of a paragraph and you put it in a red

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Speaker 2: box like once upon a time. Oh yeah, like the

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Speaker 2: old m I mean that's when you know it's legit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there's got to be a technical term

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Speaker 3: for that, no doubt.

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Speaker 2: The International Order of Saint Hubertus is a true nightly order.

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Speaker 2: In the historical tradition. The Order is under the royal

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Speaker 2: protection of His Majesty, King Juan Carlos of Spain, the

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Speaker 2: grand Master Emeritus in his Imperial and Royal Highness, Archduke

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Speaker 2: Andreas Salvatore von Habsburg, Lovingren of Austria, and our current

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Speaker 2: grand Master is His Imperial and Royal Highness Istevon von

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Speaker 2: Habsburg Lothringen, Archduke of Austria, Prince of Hungary. The International

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Speaker 2: Order of Saint Hubertus is comprised of an international group

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Speaker 2: of individuals Ordun's Brothers, who are passionate about the sports

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Speaker 2: of hunting and fishing, and who are vitally interested and

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Speaker 2: actively involved in the preservation of wildlife its habitat in

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Speaker 2: the tradition of ethical hunting and fish. They got members

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Speaker 2: who are dedicated to upland bird hunting, duck hunting, and

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Speaker 2: hunters of quote larger and big game. Never been asked

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Speaker 2: if Brandley was asked to be in this and I don't,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna be pised.

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 4: I was just thinking we should start our own secret order.

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Speaker 2: Here's what they stand for.

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Speaker 3: That's okay, instead of skull and bones, we'll just go

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Speaker 3: with skulls and skulls.

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Speaker 2: Here's what they stand for. To promote sportsmanlike conduct and

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Speaker 2: hunting and fishing. To foster good fellowship among sportsmen from

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Speaker 2: all over the world. To teach and preserve sound traditional

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Speaker 2: hunting and fishing customs. To encourage wildlife conservation, and to

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Speaker 2: help protect in dangered species from extinction. To promote the

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Speaker 2: concept of hunting and fishing as an intangible cultural heritage

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Speaker 2: of humanity. To endeavor to ensure that the economic benefits

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Speaker 2: derived from sports, hunting and fishing, support the regions where

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Speaker 2: these activities are carried out, and to strive to enhance

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Speaker 2: respect the responsible hunters and fishermen. If I get into that,

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Speaker 2: I'm you know, I don't have any tattoos. I'm getting

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Speaker 2: that it's got a crest.

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Speaker 5: Where's that is going on your lower back?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 5: That's where it has to go.

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Speaker 2: Put the first one?

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Speaker 7: Then?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now expenser, who ran out of place to put them?

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Speaker 2: He said?

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Speaker 4: He said, with no small amount of judgment.

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Speaker 2: Before you get in a dank, Can you, guys tell

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Speaker 2: us about your added hunt? But can I start by

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Speaker 2: telling about how controversial it is? Yeah? Are you familiar

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Speaker 2: with the controversy? Mm hmm.

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Speaker 5: Well is it similar to asking folks if they want

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Speaker 5: to get rid of pigs?

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 5: And if you most of them would say no because

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Speaker 5: they're you know, they turned quite a profit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So people like you guys, the people you guys

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Speaker 2: getting all excited flying all around the country to hunt

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Speaker 2: a dad are killing big horns.

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Speaker 7: Not exactly, I think.

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Speaker 2: You hate big horn sheep.

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Speaker 7: Thanks for putting us in a box.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about your trip.

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Speaker 5: I don't think that's true.

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Speaker 2: No, no, No, I'm joking. I want to want to start

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Speaker 2: paraphrasing half a Finger.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, we're definitely gonna address that. That's part

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Speaker 7: of the that's part of the conservation.

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Speaker 2: I'm being too, I'm being I'm being.

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Speaker 5: By promoting hunting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, meaning that a dad are there. They're there are

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Speaker 2: sheep species from North Africa, North Africa, and they run wild,

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Speaker 2: and they run wild in Texas.

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Speaker 5: Not a sheep, they're odd.

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Speaker 6: They're closer, more closer, they're closer to oats.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I guess that's where I got that. So not

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Speaker 2: a true sheep.

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Speaker 5: Correct, obviously related, but not not a true sheep.

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Speaker 2: They've gone feral. They do quite well in Texas, and

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Speaker 2: people point out that it's been pointed out, not not

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Speaker 2: just pointed out. I think it's According to half a Finger,

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Speaker 2: it's like an objective reality that awed ad are detrimental

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Speaker 2: to big horn sheep recovery. So, in all fairness, do

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Speaker 2: not mean to overblow it. Halfle Finger has pointed out

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Speaker 2: he feels that there is like an increasing popularity in

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Speaker 2: awed hunting because you can hunt around, you don't have

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Speaker 2: any kind of bag limits, Like it's kind of the

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like the the you know, it's like

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Speaker 2: the wild West of Awdad hunting.

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Speaker 7: Right now, You're not going to get a sheep probably

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Speaker 7: ever in your life. So if you want to try

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Speaker 7: for something adjacent to it.

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Speaker 2: Go down in the desert and you know, run around

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Speaker 2: in the rim rocks. They're down there. And he feels

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Speaker 2: that as this gains popular larity land managers, landowners will

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Speaker 2: become incentivized to host awed AD on their properties, and

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Speaker 2: he feels that this could lead to a net loss

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Speaker 2: in suitable big horn habitat. But I was hunting, oh Dad,

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Speaker 2: when you guess when your mommy's was wiping your noses?

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Speaker 2: How old fifty one?

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Speaker 7: So Steve made it cool before it was cool.

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Speaker 2: No, I went one time, I went two times.

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Speaker 7: I'm just trying to be cute.

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Speaker 2: I went two times and I was not. I guess

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Speaker 2: I was. I wasn't really aware of the issue. But anyways,

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Speaker 2: tell about you guys trip. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, a couple of weeks ago, Karin and I and

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Speaker 5: Karin's significant other Matt, were hosted by doctor Phil of Retzki, the.

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Speaker 7: Duck Doctor DNA doc now now odd AD DNA doc

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Speaker 7: also Turkey DNA doc Yep, he's got all the names.

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Speaker 5: He hosted us down in West Texas on UTEPS, the

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Speaker 5: Indio Research Station.

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Speaker 7: Yep, he's at the Yeah. So so we weren't at

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Speaker 7: you know, uh RAN for research for it. Yeah, University

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Speaker 7: of Texas at El Paso has a research facility that's

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Speaker 7: about thirty five or forty it's forty thousand.

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Speaker 5: That's where we were, right on the Rio Grande.

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Speaker 2: All these details.

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Speaker 5: We're looking at Mexico, the mountains in Mexico the whole time, glorious,

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Speaker 5: stunning country. He wanted us to come down in February

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Speaker 5: or January when it was cooler, and the best time

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Speaker 5: we could pull it off was in early April, and

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Speaker 5: so odds were that it was going to be hot

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Speaker 5: while we were down there, but we got really lucky

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Speaker 5: with a cold front that rolled in just days before

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Speaker 5: we landed. And if they were still trying to squeak

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Speaker 5: out of that cold front, and I don't think it

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Speaker 5: ever got above seventy degrees. We hunted two days and

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Speaker 5: we did our best to help the conservation aspect and

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Speaker 5: tried to just shoot and use at first was our

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Speaker 5: main objective.

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Speaker 2: So this facility is hostile to the odd ads.

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Speaker 5: I mean, they've just made themselves at home.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they're a desert big horn that roam in and out.

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Speaker 5: But this is just south of the Elephant Mountains, I believe,

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Speaker 5: which has a herd of bighorn sheep and they'll bleed

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Speaker 5: over into this ranch. But the odd ad have made

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Speaker 5: themselves at home. There weren't a lot of odd ad around,

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Speaker 5: or at least they weren't easy to find. We made

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Speaker 5: it look easy in two days, but it was because

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Speaker 5: the weather was so nice. We were able to hunt

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Speaker 5: all day, glass them up in the morning and take

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Speaker 5: hours to get in within rifle range, and you know,

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Speaker 5: slowly pack them out without worrying about wasting any of

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Speaker 5: the meat.

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Speaker 3: But the university does want to get rid of them

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Speaker 3: or reduce the numbers.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's kind of the general vibe in West Texas

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Speaker 5: is to keep the numbers reduced for desert big horn.

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00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,479
Speaker 5: Sheet You're never going to be able to get rid

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Speaker 5: of odd ad just because they've made themselves at home

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Speaker 5: and they do so well in that landscape. But yeah,

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00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,360
Speaker 5: desert big horns certainly sit higher on the pedestal down there,

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Speaker 5: but odd ad are very close because of the outfitting

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Speaker 5: opportunity the trophy hunting big air quotes.

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Speaker 2: Can you pass that that thing down here so I

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Speaker 2: can look at it?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I can't have fifty pounds. Corey shot it really

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Speaker 7: really huge sand Graham, So Steve, like, I guess your

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Speaker 7: hand doesn't even fit around the the whole horn there.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, just more on that. You know, the phil

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Speaker 7: Phil's lab, he's he's trying to figure out certain new

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Speaker 7: techniques to test aspects of the odd ads. So like

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Speaker 7: they everyone that we shot, we collectively got four. They

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Speaker 7: all got nasal swabbed. Uh and uh, they all got

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Speaker 7: a piece of meat cut out of them for testing

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00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 7: for various diseases and such. But to my understanding, that

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Speaker 7: research facility is potential grounds for desert big horn reintroductions.

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00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 7: Oh really, so there are it would be possible to

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Speaker 7: put together some kind of study or tests to see

382
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 7: how many females would need to be taken out of

383
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Speaker 7: the population in order to accommodate I don't really know

384
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 7: the right language, but you know, to accommodate number exactly exactly?

385
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 2: Are you counting up that he's like eleven or twelve

386
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 2: years old?

387
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 5: That's what we guesstimated somewhere between ten and thirteen. It's

388
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 5: so hard to tell.

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Speaker 2: I mean, well, the yeah, the annually ier rubbed off

390
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: on the outer very smooth. Now.

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00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 5: I also brought in that you that I shot, which

392
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 5: was an older at you as well and just as

393
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 5: beautiful of a trophy. And the meat is ten times better.

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00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: Because he has a real bad eating reputation.

395
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, which I don't understand. Well, it's just like people

396
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 5: who say antelope aren't good to eat, or sagey mule deer.

397
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 5: You know, they just don't know how to cook more

398
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 5: than cereal.

399
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, I felt like the meat flavor is so incredibly mild.

400
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 7: I mean I shot the little list of them. Of

401
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 7: the four, I thought that I was aiming at a you,

402
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 7: and then it ended up being a small ram that

403
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 7: was termed us a subadult. You can kind of like

404
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 7: lift it with one hand. And I haven't eaten off of.

405
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 7: I ate a little bit of his heart, but the

406
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 7: meat is much like lighter pink and seems tender as

407
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 7: heck because it because he's really young. But we threw

408
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 7: ribs on the grill one of the days and our

409
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 7: first night at dinner at doctor Phil's house, he'd just

410
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 7: forget what cut, but he just grilled it up and

411
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 7: it you know, he he he says it's like sirloin

412
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 7: to him, and I thought it was absolutely delicious. So

413
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 7: kind of riffing off of Jesse Griffiths, you know, Eat

414
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 7: a hog, Save the world.

415
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 6: Uh.

416
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 7: Phil's new tagline is save a sheep, Eat an odd ad.

417
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 5: So yeah, he whipped up a again. I don't know

418
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 5: what cut it was, but an odd ad steak and

419
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 5: an elk steak. I couldn't tell the difference.

420
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 7: It was real. It was really good. It just you

421
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 7: even smell the meat and it doesn't it's it's yeah,

422
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 7: it's just really it's really clean.

423
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 2: They got a bad reputation, Yeah they do.

424
00:23:59,200 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 6: I don't.

425
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's like reputations aren't really based on

426
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: that much. Yeahs based on what some dude said about it. Yeah,

427
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: and then some dud parrots what he said.

428
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, and then that just you know, it's a total

429
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 7: that goes out.

430
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: So how did you guys see all together?

431
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: Oh?

432
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 5: Well, the group that Karin and I both got uh

433
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 5: are adult and sub adult rams.

434
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 7: Uh.

435
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 5: There were twenty three in that group, and then I

436
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 5: guess we saw two other solo Rams and another small group,

437
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 5: so we probably saw close to fifty in two days.

438
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 5: Two full days of hunting though, and then sun up

439
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 5: till sundown.

440
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 7: When you were goutting yours in the field, Matt and

441
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 7: I went off on a on a little nearby knob

442
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 7: and there were probably like ten in that group. So

443
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 7: they're around, they're they're there. Their behavior is interesting, like

444
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 7: if you you know, like Corey, Corey shot first and

445
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 7: then I shot.

446
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 5: Second into those chivalrous of you those four hundred yards.

447
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, no, no, I didn't. You know, we we we

448
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 7: had hiked in. Corey was so awesome the entire time.

449
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 7: But we what we haven't covered is that I was

450
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 7: like tremendous dead weight on that hunt. This is the hardest.

451
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 7: It was so hard for me, not not just physically

452
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 7: and it was hot and it was but just the

453
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 7: terrain is punishing. Like I think it was you who

454
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 7: said at some point, Steve, like even the thorns have

455
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 7: thorns down there. I mean, you're not going to grab

456
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 7: onto anything. It's so like Shaley and every step, like

457
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 7: the rocks, that everything is just you know, shifting under

458
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 7: your feet, so you can't get on stable ground. And

459
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 7: I knew I'd always had like a little bit of

460
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 7: a fear of heights and incline, but oh goodness, I

461
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 7: mean this I was, I like shut down at point,

462
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 7: so I can't, can't not courier Phil or Matt like.

463
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 7: I had my handheld quite a bit through this experience.

464
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 2: Literally your handheld.

465
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 7: Well, yes, at one point literally my hand was out.

466
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 5: We were on the highest point of the ranch.

467
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 7: So literally my hand was out.

468
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 5: Which I think was about six thousand feet And to

469
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 5: get the two sheep out, it took us eight and

470
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 5: a half hours to pack out, by far, the most

471
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 5: brutal packout I've ever been.

472
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 7: Probably let's let's shave a third of the time off

473
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 7: because they stopped and waited for my ass a lot.

474
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 5: But yeah, it was so hot though we had to

475
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 5: stop again. It probably wasn't seventy degrees, but there's zero

476
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 5: shade and we were I'll admit, we were out of

477
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 5: water by two o'clock. I mean we were sipping the

478
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 5: last little bits of our water on our way out

479
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 5: of there. It got a little touch and.

480
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: Go towards the end there.

481
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 7: Definitely got in my head about that. But you know,

482
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 7: they they don't like, you know, maybe deer elk like

483
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 7: they'd be gone, but I took a long time between

484
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 7: or after his shot, and I didn't get mine with

485
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 7: the first shot, and there were still other odd ad

486
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 7: hanging out. So their behavior is weird. I mean, yeah,

487
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 7: you were saying they didn't know where the shot came from.

488
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 7: But it's not like one shot and they were all gone,

489
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 7: so they hung around, presented other opportunities to you know.

490
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: I find it interesting how the different states look at

491
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: their attitude about the animal. In New Mexico, it's a

492
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: draw it's a draw tag and you don't draw it. Yeah,

493
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: like I put it in.

494
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 7: I put it in every year for New Mexico audit.

495
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I put it every year.

496
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 7: Huh.

497
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 2: My buddy, My buddy's got a spot. He says, they

498
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: go there and sometimes you see like you'll be looking

499
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: at a hillside yep, and at first you don't think

500
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: there's anything there, but once you start looking, he's like

501
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: there'd be like thirty forty of them on the hillside.

502
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: And every time they draw a permit, every time one

503
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: of his bodies draws a permit, they just get an

504
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: odd ad. I've been applying now for I think ten

505
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: years in New Mexican, you know, next doesn't do the

506
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: points right. I've been applying in ten years, ten years

507
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: to drawn aud ad tag in New Mexico. I've never

508
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: drawn it. So it's like they've kind of became like

509
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: an honorary. They're sort of the thing they're managed, you know,

510
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: like you look at with Texas wild hogs. Texas is

511
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: so serious about wild hogs they dropped any license requirement

512
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: you need. There is no license requirement for hogs obviously,

513
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: no season, no bag limit, no license requirement. You go

514
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: to California to hunt hogs, you gotta tag full big

515
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: game license and you need to tag the hog. Just

516
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: like different states have really different attitudes about how to

517
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: treat and handle right not native.

518
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 7: Wild And then I think that also maybe goes back

519
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 7: to what Heffelfinger is saying, like there's obviously probably a

520
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 7: delicate balance between the state Wildlife agency and then the

521
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 7: the you know, the ranches that that sell odd ad

522
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 7: hunts and just having to be careful about.

523
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: You know, well, yeah, the ranch control, the ranch controls

524
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: the access. Another way that like another interesting way that

525
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: New Mexico handles this issues with the you know, the

526
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: IBEX in the Florida Mountains, the Florida where you can

527
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: stand on one end of the Florida Mountains and see

528
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: the other end. It's like a containable little mountain range.

529
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know, Maybe am I wrong? Could you

530
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: walk around the Florida Mountains in two days?

531
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 6: Maybe? Yeah, if you were a good in shape hiker.

532
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you like picture you like like standing and

533
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: be like there they.

534
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 4: Are, like you see the island in the entirety.

535
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: There's ibecks in the Florida Mountains or non native so

536
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: another non native species. Uh, it's very hard to draw

537
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: an ibex tag in the Florida Mountains. There's actually a

538
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: thing where that's like a once in a wh lifetime

539
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: if you draw for a billy or a ram whatever

540
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: they call them. Meanwhile, their management strategy is it's always

541
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: ibex season, not in the Florida Mountains.

542
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 5: If they exit the mountains then it's full.

543
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: So like it's like it's they're like, this is the

544
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: ibec's place. You have to apply and probably will never

545
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: get a chance to hunt it. As soon as one

546
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: of them soccer steps out of those hills. It's just

547
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: you just got to go get a tag and go

548
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: for it, so you just come up. They have these

549
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: little I don't know, man, they're kind of weighing like interest.

550
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: People are very interested in it. They're kind of weighing

551
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: interest against other ecological considerations when they figure out how

552
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: to do it. Like in Florida they have that island

553
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: with the sandbar on it and you have to draw

554
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: tagged on a sandbar on the island. I'm guessing if

555
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: those sandbar were cut loose on the main Florida peninsula,

556
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: they'd have a very different attitude about the sandbars, you know.

557
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, super cool animal. If anybody's thinking about hunting, one

558
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 5: shoot an you or two before you shoot a ram.

559
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 7: Yeah. I think heavy Finger is like for every ram

560
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 7: anyone takes, you need to shoot like that.

561
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: I like to miss I misrepresented something Hefflefinger told me

562
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: every day.

563
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 4: And then he doesn't call you out on it, which

564
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 4: is a nice thing.

565
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 7: But I'll just plug Phil's lab again. It's the Population

566
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 7: Evolutionary Genetics Lab at UTEP University of Texas at El Paso.

567
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 7: And if anyone feels like, you know, donating some tax

568
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 7: deductible UH monies to their research lab, and I think

569
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 7: they'll probably end up doing more on odd AD and

570
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 7: looking at desert big Horn, the potential for reintroduction that's

571
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 7: giving to dot utep dot edu forward slash conservation. You

572
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 7: probably did not retain that information. I will put a

573
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 7: link in the show notes.

574
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: And what was the episode he came on, what do

575
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: we call their wild ducks?

576
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 7: Really wild? That was the first episode a year or

577
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 7: two ago.

578
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: So if you remember back, he's yeah, if you remember back,

579
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: we did an episode where in some places it's so

580
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: weird this even allowed in some places you can like

581
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: pen raise mallards, like pretend mallards and cut them loose

582
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: to kind of have like a pretend duck hunt. But

583
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: then those pen raise ducks are breeding into our wild

584
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: duck populations and affecting their behavior, screwing up migration patterns,

585
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: life cycles, fitness.

586
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 6: Uh.

587
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: And he came on to talk about how through the

588
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: through their genetic survey work, they're able to see from

589
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: these reintroductions from not these from the pen raised operations,

590
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: they're able to see a genetics spread as the genetics

591
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: of those ducks expand outward. And how far into how

592
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: far I guess it would be, how far west they're

593
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: finding traces of these ducks. Michael Chamberlain is beginning a

594
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: new thing on wild turkeys, the impact of you know,

595
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: people get all excited when they shoot a white turkey,

596
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: real excited. Usually what's happened is you've shot a turkey.

597
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: People love it. But what's probably happened is you shot

598
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: someone's turkey, right, you shot someone's fair old turkey. And

599
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: so there's a new project coming out what we're going

600
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: to start looking at the impacts of domestic turkeys finding

601
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: their way into wild turkeys and interbreeding into wild turkey populations.

602
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 5: Well, as Karin mentioned, while we were out there, Phil

603
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 5: took meat samples and he was trying to figure out

604
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 5: because there was two different strains of odd ad that

605
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 5: were introduced to Texas originally back in the fifties, I believe,

606
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 5: And now we're trying to figure out which strain were

607
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 5: we hunting and harvesting and could they be hybrid strains?

608
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 5: Could the two different groups have you know, blended together

609
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 5: and made a hybrid odd ad?

610
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: Who caught him loose in the first place?

611
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 5: Yea, And Texas Parks and Wildlife was yeah, because yeah

612
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 5: it was. And now they're you know, people very much

613
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 5: don't like Texas Parks and Wildlife because they're you know,

614
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 5: aerial gunning odd ad to help with desert big horn

615
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 5: sheep just because they have to. If you want to

616
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 5: protect the sheep, you gotta minimize the odd ad population.

617
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: It's funny that we I think, like generally you could

618
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: say that wildlife management has this dark period and then

619
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: there's a turning point and then there's sort of the

620
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 3: good old days of post Pittman Robertson and we figured

621
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: it out, you know. But so many of these non

622
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 3: native introductions carried on until fairly late in the twentieth century,

623
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: like and not all of them are necessarily have the

624
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 3: same ecological implications, but like Himalayan snowcocker, like in the seventies,

625
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: you know, and you think about now non natives are

626
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: such an issue for us, but it's it's really not

627
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: all that long ago.

628
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: Now, I mean Hungary like Hungarian party and American partridge, right, right,

629
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 2: But some well, so you can hunt turkeys in forty

630
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: United States. Turkeys are native to thirty eight states. Yeah,

631
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 2: I mean, like some stuff is right, there's no some

632
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: stuff there's no like demonstrated deleterious effects.

633
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, And that's that. I mean, I recognize that.

634
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's funny how quickly we've we've shifted with

635
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 3: some of these species in recognizing the impacts.

636
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 4: You know, even in the fishing world.

637
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: There is one last introduction I want to do. Whenever

638
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm in Hawaii, I always think on those hot lava rocks.

639
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: Just think how much rattlesnake could love it there. That's

640
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: all right, you know what I mean. It's the last introduction.

641
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: Ten thousand pet dogs and Hawaiian thrown.

642
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 2: A male and a female rattlesnake on the ConA coast.

643
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: I just feel like they'd be so happy. It'd be

644
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: so much to eat hot rocks.

645
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 4: I have zero interest in rattlesnake being happy.

646
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no kidding. When I'm standing on one of

647
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 2: those hot live rocks, I can just picture to the sound.

648
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 7: We really need some TS agents to follow.

649
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 2: You and make sure I'm not.

650
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 7: So.

651
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 6: You know, Hawaii is the only state in the Union

652
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 6: where coyotes have not colonized. Is that right?

653
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: It is?

654
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 6: It's the only one.

655
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll do that too, well, very popular.

656
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 6: Those endangered anaise would would not be around for very

657
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 6: long if coyotes ever got there. What is that underheard

658
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 6: that it's a goose. It looks like it's a species

659
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 6: of goose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's got It's got another

660
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 6: name though, right I've ever heard is Nane, which is

661
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 6: probably the Hawaiian name. Yeah, I mean probably you know,

662
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 6: Anglo missionaries maybe called them geese, but yeah, I think uh,

663
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 6: I think they're generally known by nine.

664
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 5: The Yeah, I believe it's a dance to the whip

665
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 5: and Nane.

666
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.

667
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 5: But one conversation we had on a rock when we

668
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 5: were with this genetics scientists out there. We were talking

669
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 5: about like, at what point in evolution is an animal

670
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 5: native versus invasive?

671
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 2: You know, Dan's got some Yeah, Dan's been on the

672
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 2: show making his case for wild horses. Do you feel

673
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: like remaking because you know what I was gonna ask

674
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 2: you about. First, We're gonna give you a pick, Okay,

675
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask you to tell everyone the story

676
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: of the other Lewis and.

677
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 6: Clark their listen clock experts, or.

678
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 2: You can you can try to sell you can try

679
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: to you can sell everybody on the horse as as

680
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 2: a native American animal. Well, the horse is good, he's

681
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: taken that he's taken b I'll say the.

682
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 6: Horse is quick because the horse and its ancestors have

683
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 6: been here for fifty six million years. Okay, they have

684
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 6: only been absent for about eight thousand years, and so,

685
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 6: you know, and I've talked to paleontologists in Canada who

686
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 6: say from the fossils they have of the last horses

687
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 6: in America that are ten eleven thousand years old that

688
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 6: they had, they can't tell the difference readily between those

689
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 6: and the horses that Europeans brought from the Old World

690
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 6: over there. And so I mean that's I think what

691
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 6: you can say about the horse is the horse is

692
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 6: either an exotic with an asterisk, or it's a native

693
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 6: with an asterisk. And I prefer the native with an asterisk,

694
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 6: because I tend to think in terms of deep history

695
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 6: and long time, and so an animal that's been here

696
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 6: for fifty six million years and only gone for a

697
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 6: wink of an eye time, to me is a native animal.

698
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 6: I mean, that's why they went while so readily and

699
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 6: so quickly when they were reintroduced in the West. The

700
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 6: primary problem, of course, is that they were reintroduced without

701
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 6: their plaistosine predators accompanying them. And so that's why we're

702
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 6: having such difficulty in controlling them, is we don't have

703
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 6: you know, big hunting hyenas and American cheetahs and all

704
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 6: these cats, particularly that preyed on horse folds. But yeah,

705
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 6: this is an animal that you know, although it's created

706
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 6: a huge kind of outcry and by a lot of

707
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 6: people as a non native, I mean, it's actually an

708
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 6: animal that's been here for a long time. So yeah,

709
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 6: that one's pretty quick, pretty quick story.

710
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: It's compelling. It's compelling. Now talk about the tell folks

711
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 2: about the other Lewis and Clark.

712
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is a story that I know most Americans

713
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 6: do not know. And it has to do with something

714
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 6: called historical memory. Because there are some things you know,

715
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 6: and you know this when you study history. Randall I

716
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 6: knows it very well. Some things we remember and make

717
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 6: a part of the ongoing story of the country, and

718
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 6: some things that are swept under the rug. And so

719
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 6: at a time when the United States was a brand

720
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 6: new country, that's the period when Lewis and Clark, Jefferson

721
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 6: Lewis and Clark into the West eighteen four and eighteen

722
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 6: to eighteen six, we were a country with you know,

723
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 6: a little bit of a self esteem problem because we

724
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 6: were brand new. The Brits were still sort of acting

725
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 6: like at any moment they were going to reinvade and

726
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 6: take the colonies back. And so Jefferson after the Louisiana

727
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 6: Purchase of eighteen oh three. I mean, if you think

728
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 6: about the Lewis and Clark expedition and the map in

729
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 6: your mind that you remember from school of the Louisiana Purchase,

730
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 6: one of the things that will quickly occur to you

731
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 6: is that why was Jefferson interested in only exploring the

732
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 6: northern piece of it? Why didn't he have some interest

733
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 6: in all the rest, which was a much larger chunk

734
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 6: of ground. To be sure, the southern boundary was less

735
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 6: set than the northern boundary because Jefferson tried to claim

736
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 6: that the southern boundary of the Louisiana Purchase with the

737
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 6: real Grand River, and of course here is Spain with

738
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 6: colonies in Texas and New Mexico on the north side

739
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 6: of the Rio Grand who contested.

740
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 2: That it's weird because he wanted being kind of right.

741
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, I mean like over time, yeah.

742
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 6: Ultimately that's how it played out. But so after to

743
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 6: get to the story, here. After the Lewis and Clark

744
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 6: expedition was underway, Jefferson set about preparing an expedition to

745
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 6: go into the southern parts of the Louisiana Purchase. And

746
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 6: the river that he decided was the very best river

747
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 6: to explore in the north, it was the Missouri and

748
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 6: the Columbia, obviously those two. In the south, what he

749
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 6: decided to do was to explore the Red River. That's

750
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 6: the river that is the boundary today between Texas and Oklahoma.

751
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 6: And he picked that river because he thought it came

752
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 6: out of the Southern Rockies near Santa Fe. And so

753
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 6: what he was organizing as a second expedition was to

754
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 6: send a party up the Red River to its source

755
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 6: in the Southern Rockies near Santa Fe, and then the

756
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 6: party would cross over to the Arkansas, also believed to

757
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 6: be to have its headwaters in the southern mountains, and

758
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 6: to come back to civilization down the Arkansas River. So

759
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 6: this was not going to be an expedition that went

760
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 6: all the way to the coasts the way Lewis and

761
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 6: Clark's was planned. Because there was no idea of a

762
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 6: northwest passage in the southern reaches of the West and

763
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 6: of course, that's what Lewis and Clark were looking for.

764
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 6: They were trying to find the fable Northwest passage for commerce.

765
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 6: So anyway, the second expedition was essentially based on a

766
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 6: flawed premise. Jefferson and just about everybody else who made

767
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 6: maps of the West at the time followed Alexander von

768
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 6: Humboldt's map of the West, which he had put together.

769
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: Probably in that order of hubert Us with that name.

770
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Alexander von Humboldt's.

771
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's a major. He's a Prussian naturalist who explored

772
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 6: South America. Had a ton of students who followed in

773
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 6: his wake, like Prince Maximilian on the Rose area was

774
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 6: one of humboldt students, and he's the guy who comes

775
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 6: up with all kinds of sort of early notions about ecology.

776
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 6: So von Humboldt had put together a map of the

777
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 6: West from sources in the archives in Mexico, and he

778
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 6: saw that there was a river coming out of the

779
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 6: southern Rockies near Santa Fe that flowed eastward. And the

780
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 6: French in Louisiana knew there was this river, the Red

781
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 6: River in their part of the world, that flowed from

782
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 6: the west, and so von Humboldt put those two together

783
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 6: and told Jefferson that the Red River headed in the

784
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 6: southern Rockies and you could send a party up it

785
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 6: and it would take them all the way into what

786
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 6: is now New Mexico and Colorado. The problem with that

787
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 6: was that von Humboldt did not have any sources that

788
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 6: actually tied those two rivers together, and so the river

789
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 6: that he saw in New Mexico heading near Santa Fe

790
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 6: was actually the Pacer which is a tributary of the

791
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 6: Rio Grande, and the Red River that Jefferson sent his

792
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 6: party up heads in what we now call the Yano

793
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 6: Westacado Plateau. It comes out of Palo Duro Canyon, which

794
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 6: most people have heard of, this big giant canyon that's

795
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 6: on the eastern side of this plateau in West Texas

796
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 6: and New Mexico. So it was a river that actually

797
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 6: didn't head in mountains. It would have led the explorers,

798
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 6: the American explorers, out into the middle of the southern

799
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 6: high plains and left them still like ten days travel

800
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 6: from New Mexico from Santa Fe. Anyway, Jefferson didn't know that,

801
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 6: and he insisted that the Red was the River that

802
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 6: he wanted to explore because there were all sorts of

803
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 6: wonderful stories about what was up at the headwaters of

804
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 6: the Red River. So he put together this expedition in

805
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 6: eighteen oh six, two years after Lewis and Clark set out.

806
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 6: As Lewis and Clark were returning from the Pacific, Jefferson

807
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 6: put together the party of more than fifty fifty people,

808
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 6: including a military escort led by a guy named Captain

809
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 6: John Sparks, who was a close friend of Meriwether Lewis's

810
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 6: and William Clark's. They had all grown up in Virginia,

811
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 6: and Jefferson selected an Irish basically he was a geographer

812
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 6: named Thomas Freeman to lead the expedition, and he picked

813
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 6: as the first American trained naturalists to explore in the West,

814
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 6: a young man he knew from Virginia. His name was

815
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 6: Peter Custis, and he was just about to get a

816
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 6: doctorate in medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. So the

817
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 6: expedition is known to the people who know about it

818
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 6: as the Freeman and Custis Expedition up the Red River

819
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 6: in eighteen oh six, and these guys starting, they.

820
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: Had fifty dudes. They had fifty dudes Lewis and Clark,

821
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: well forty forty.

822
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, about forty forty two, I think is the top

823
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 6: figure because the one guy died and they sent one

824
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 6: guy back for bad behavior. But Congress also, interestingly about

825
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 6: this second expedition, appropriated twice the money for it that

826
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 6: they appropriated for Lewis and Clark. Now, you know, people

827
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 6: who know about the expeditions know that Meriwether Lewis actually

828
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 6: spent a whole lot more money than Congress had appropriated

829
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 6: for him. But this second expedition had twice the funds appropriated.

830
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 6: Jefferson referred to it as the Grand Expedition, and it

831
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 6: set out up the Red River in April of eighteen

832
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 6: oh six, reached the last point of civilization on the

833
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 6: Red the town of Nakotash, which was an old French

834
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 6: town on the Red River in central Louisiana. And then,

835
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 6: and we've talked about this, Steve, I know, because you've

836
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 6: been interested in it. One of the things they had

837
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 6: to do to get on the Red River above Necklish

838
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 6: was to detour around what we think is probably the

839
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 6: biggest logjam anywhere in North America. It was called the

840
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 6: great Raft, and this thing extended for about one hundred

841
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 6: and forty miles up the Red River, and so it

842
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 6: was impossible to travel on the river, and they had

843
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 6: to go through all these balues and swamps around to

844
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 6: the east of it to get around the raft and

845
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 6: back to the river. So they did that, and they

846
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 6: were above the Great Raft in the early summer of

847
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 6: eighteen oh six and getting ready to head west.

848
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: I got addy pause, Yeah, sure, can you remind me

849
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: how did they end up getting rid of that raft?

850
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 6: It took the invention of nitro glycerin now when nitro

851
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 6: was invented in the eighteen sixties, eighteen early eighteen seventies.

852
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 6: Actually it was possible for a guy named Captain Henry

853
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 6: Shreve for whom Shreveport is named to go out with

854
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 6: what he called snag boats and the raft apart enough

855
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 6: to place charges of nitro under it, and they basically

856
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 6: blew it apart.

857
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: Just sent all that out.

858
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 6: Took it took them ten years to do it. Yeah,

859
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 6: but yeah, it was a gigantic chance. Wow man. Yeah,

860
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 6: it took the invention of a new explosive device, essentially

861
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 6: nitro to do it. So anyway, this expedition is on

862
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 6: the Red River, and they're headed west and they're bound

863
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 6: for Santa Fe. And they have all these, you know,

864
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 6: wonderful objectives that they're going to do. And Peter Custis

865
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 6: is doing natural history. I mean he you know, Marriwether

866
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 6: Lewis is kind of self trained as a nationalist. Peter

867
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 6: Custis was trained in a university. And they get about

868
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 6: six hundred and fifty miles up the Red River and

869
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 6: round a bend and discover a Spanish force four times

870
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 6: their size a arrayed across the river. And they hear

871
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 6: that another this Spanish force is from Texas, and they

872
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 6: hear that another Spanish force, the largest one ever sent

873
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 6: out from Santa Fe, is coming down the upper Red River.

874
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 6: And so Spain determines that it is not going to

875
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 6: allow the Americans to explore into country where the boundary

876
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 6: has not been resolved between the United States and Spain.

877
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 6: And Jefferson had included in his letter of instructions to

878
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 6: both Meriwether Lewis and to Thomas Freeman a line that said,

879
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 6: if you are if your further progress is opposed by

880
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 6: a force authorized or not authorized by a nation. In

881
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 6: other words, either an Indian group or some force force

882
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 6: authorized by a nation. I would I want you to

883
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 6: turn back with the information you've already gathered rather than

884
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,439
Speaker 6: attempt to go forward, because I don't want to risk

885
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 6: the lives of American citizens in a confrontation with an

886
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 6: overwhelming force. Whether Lewis never confronted anything like that, because

887
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 6: even the Spaniards tried to stop Lewis and Clark, but

888
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 6: they were so far to the north the Spanish forces

889
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 6: could never find them on the Missouri and they sent

890
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 6: several expeditions out to stop Lewis and Clark.

891
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, hold on that for a minute. Yeah, Like why

892
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: does no one talk about where these Spanish guys? How

893
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 2: can you hear the stories about the Spanish guys trying

894
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: to find Lewis and Clark, Like where were they looking?

895
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: They were?

896
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 6: They were launched primarily from Texas. I mean San Antonio

897
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 6: had the biggest presidios of any of the Spanish colonies

898
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 6: and what were known as the Provincia's internals than the

899
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 6: internal provinces of the north, and so they were launched

900
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 6: from there, but they never got The one that got

901
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 6: fartherest never got out of what is now present day,

902
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 6: Kansas never even got really to the to the Missouri Rial.

903
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 2: What obstacles were preventing them from getting up there.

904
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 6: Usually poor planning, poor execution, leaders who were not up

905
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 6: to the task, and on at least one of the

906
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 6: groups encountered an opposing force of Native people that turned

907
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 6: them back. So they were those forces that were trying

908
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 6: to intercept Lewis and Clark were, you know, they didn't

909
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 6: really get close, but the Red River was a lot

910
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 6: closer to these Spanish presidios in Texas, and they successfully

911
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 6: got a two hundred man force led by a guy

912
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 6: named Captain Francisco Vianna, and they put up a perimeter

913
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 6: across the Red River and Freeman and his party round

914
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 6: of Ben they see this Spanish force. They stopped for

915
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 6: three days and have a diplomatic conference with parlay with

916
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 6: the leader of the Spanish force. And this Spanish leader,

917
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 6: h Vianna, was basically he was polite, but he was firm.

918
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 6: My orders are you are not to be allowed to

919
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 6: progress any farther on the river. And so Freeman consulted

920
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 6: his orders from Jefferson, which said, if you're confronted by

921
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 6: an overwhelming force, I want you to turn back with

922
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 6: the information you have, and the Americans turned around and

923
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 6: went back. And so what I would say about this

924
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 6: is that the reason you've never heard of it, and

925
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 6: nobody else, really very much in America has ever heard

926
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 6: of this expedition is because at a time when the

927
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,479
Speaker 6: United States had a little bit of a self esteem

928
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 6: problem as a young country, we were perfectly willing to

929
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 6: celebrate the success of Lewis and Clark getting to the Pacific.

930
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 6: But the second Presidential expedition being turned around by a

931
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 6: foreign power and told to retrograde to American territory, that

932
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 6: was one that I mean, even Jefferson was willing to

933
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 6: just sort of sweep under the rug effectively effectively. So yeah,

934
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 6: I did a talk one time at the two hundredth

935
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 6: anniversary of Lewis and Clark and Saint Louis under the Arts,

936
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 6: hosted by the National Park Service, and they asked me

937
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 6: to talk about this expedition, and immediately before me there

938
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 6: was this Hispanic historian from I think he was from

939
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 6: Arizona who got up and did a talk and his

940
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 6: whole talk was about, man, I really wish some Spanish

941
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,439
Speaker 6: force had managed to stop Lewis and Clark that would

942
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 6: have really changed. And I got up after this guy said,

943
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:36,959
Speaker 6: you know, I'm going to make all your dreams come

944
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 6: true because it happened exactly that way, but with another party,

945
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 6: with the second expedition.

946
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

947
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, So it's one of those kind of unknown stories.

948
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 6: And you know, the podcast I'm doing for you guys

949
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 6: is a lot of it is like that. It's the

950
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 6: Western stories that you've not really ever heard or been

951
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 6: exposed to with a lot of emphasis as we were

952
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:08,720
Speaker 6: saying a few minutes ago, on wildlife, on native people,

953
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 6: on the landscapes, the great landforms of the West, and

954
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 6: all that. But that's what I've tried to do with

955
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 6: most of my career is sort of work on things

956
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 6: that other people hadn't done already.

957
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 2: If if you had to say, like, what are some

958
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 2: of the things that people miss the most? What are

959
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 2: some of the most common misses that people have about

960
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: the American West? Is it like the antiquity or.

961
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 6: I think that's very definitely one. I mean the West,

962
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 6: And if you in the Southwest in particular, you can't

963
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 6: miss this because of all the ruins all over the

964
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 6: the Southwest. As you know, when you and I were

965
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 6: at Chaco a few months ago and the time we

966
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 6: went to the Clovis side. I mean, there are these

967
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 6: unmistakably ancient still visible. There's still visible evidence of people

968
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 6: having lived in the West for thousands and thousands and

969
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 6: thousands of years. And in a lot of the rest

970
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 6: of the country because of higher humidity and dense forests

971
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 6: and rainfall, I mean, evidence of long term occupation is

972
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 6: often really much more difficult to see. But in the

973
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 6: arid part of North America, it's still there and it's

974
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 6: still visible, and so that antiquity is a part of it.

975
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 6: I mean our sense about American history as well. I

976
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 6: mean it's only you know, four hundred years old. We've

977
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 6: only been here since the sixteen hundreds, and wow, this

978
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 6: is a brand new place. Well, the truth is, of course,

979
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 6: the story of America. Is it right now? We think

980
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 6: at least twenty three thousand years old, that's when we

981
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 6: have evidence for the first people getting over here. So

982
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 6: one of the things I tried to do in this

983
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 6: podcast is at least spend some of it the first

984
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 6: two or three episodes talking about these really ancient occupations

985
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 6: and how people lived and their interactions with the natural

986
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 6: world and wildlife and all that, because it's a story

987
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 6: that I think really shapes the future if you believe.

988
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 6: And I always make this argument about history is that

989
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 6: the past doesn't stay in the past. We're occupying a

990
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 6: world that was shaped by our ancestors, by other humans,

991
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 6: and the world that we're in right now is what

992
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 6: it is in large part because of what they did.

993
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,479
Speaker 6: And that's kind of one of my themes. I think

994
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 6: in this podcast.

995
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 2: At the end of Dan's podcast episodes, what we've been

996
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 2: doing is we've been doing a little Q and A

997
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 2: where Dan does his material. It's kind of a in

998
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: the best way possible lecture format. You take a subject,

999
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: talk about it, but then the subjects bleed into each other. Yeah,

1000
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 2: and at the end me and Randall to ask questions.

1001
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: In the spirit of that, Randall, I'd like to point

1002
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: the next question, Oh I didn't whatever you think is

1003
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 2: the most interesting thing? Oh not, I'll do it.

1004
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 3: I mean, Dan, I think this is not necessarily specific

1005
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 3: to the podcast, but I think people would probably be

1006
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 3: interested to just hear your story about how you grew.

1007
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 4: Up and.

1008
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 3: You've got some You've got some sort of an interesting

1009
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 3: past that some might not maybe expect from a professor

1010
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 3: of history and published author.

1011
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, well uh so, uh, at least on my dad's side.

1012
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 6: My mom's side of the family was you know, pretty

1013
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 6: much sort of standard Anglo Scott's American through the Upper

1014
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 6: Southern States and into the Midwest and all. And so

1015
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 6: that's part of my lenn Is but probably the more

1016
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 6: interesting one in part because that's where I grew up

1017
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 6: and I still have family there is from Louisiana because

1018
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 6: that town Nacotish I mentioned a few minutes ago, which

1019
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 6: is the you know, I always have fun telling people this,

1020
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 6: that's the oldest European town in Louisiana, not New Orleans. Yeah,

1021
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 6: Nacotash is four years older than New Orleans. I was

1022
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 6: found in seventeen fourteen and my ancestors got there in

1023
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 6: seventeen sixteen. So yeah, so we've been in Louisiana for

1024
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 6: a very very long time.

1025
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 2: But I had what brought them there, do you know?

1026
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 6: Well, I had two different sides of the of the

1027
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 6: story in Louisiana, and I don't know why my French

1028
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 6: ancestors showed up. And that's the predominant line in that

1029
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 6: side of my family. But there, I mean, my last

1030
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 6: name is Flores, which is a Spanish name. And the

1031
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 6: reason I have that name is because when the French

1032
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 6: founded Nacotash in seventeen fourteen, the Spaniards farther west were

1033
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 6: so alarmed at this French incursion because they were afraid

1034
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 6: the French were going to go up the Red River

1035
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 6: into the West, and they were absolutely right about that.

1036
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 6: That they plunked down ten miles away from Nakotish a

1037
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 6: little presidio manned by about twenty five or thirty young soldiers.

1038
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 6: And these guys, one of whom was my ancestor, the

1039
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 6: Flores's ancestor. Here they were in the Louisiana wilderness with

1040
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 6: no available potential marriage partners, and so my sees except

1041
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 6: the enemies ten miles away. So my ancestor married it

1042
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 6: to a French family in Nacotish. And so you guys

1043
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:55,479
Speaker 6: ain't all bad, Yeah, they absolutely they were Catholics at least. Yeah.

1044
01:00:55,640 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 6: So yeah, So we got absorbed into the French story

1045
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 6: in Louisiana. And I think the reason I probably grew

1046
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 6: up being fascinated with the West is because one of

1047
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 6: the stories that we always talked about in the family

1048
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 6: was there were some groups four or five generations back

1049
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 6: who were traders to the Indians in the west, and

1050
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 6: so I grew up hearing stories about Pierre Lafitte, Pierre

1051
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 6: Bouie Lafitte, who was my great grandfather four times back,

1052
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 6: and he had been a sort of a major player

1053
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,919
Speaker 6: in the Indian trade to the west out of Nakotash

1054
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 6: and had gone I don't know if he ever got

1055
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 6: all the way up to the Wichita villages far up

1056
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 6: the Red River, but he certainly was a pretty major

1057
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 6: player in Indian trade in Louisiana, and I knew that

1058
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 6: they had gone west. So I kind of grew up

1059
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 6: with the idea of, you know, the west was always

1060
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 6: this part of the country that beckoned. And when I

1061
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 6: was four years old, my family went on a National

1062
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 6: park tour and one of the places they went was

1063
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 6: into New Mexico. And so by the time I was

1064
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 6: about ten or eleven, I was having these dreams of

1065
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 6: these beautiful blue skies, cottonball clouds, sand dunes, red cliffs.

1066
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 6: Had no idea where that had come from until I

1067
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 6: was about thirty seven and thirty eight years old, and

1068
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 6: I was back in Louisiana for a family reunion and

1069
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 6: I mentioned to an ad of mine, you know, I've

1070
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 6: always had these strange dreams. That's why about the West.

1071
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 6: That's why I ended up going west. And she said, well,

1072
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 6: I wonder if that had anything to do with that

1073
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 6: National Park tour we took you on to New Mexico

1074
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 6: when you were four. Oh, I guess maybe it did.

1075
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 6: And you know, so it's the kind of thing that

1076
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 6: you sort of forget but clearly colors your subconscious for

1077
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 6: a long time. So that was part of it. And

1078
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 6: as soon as I know, I was able to drive

1079
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 6: a car and my parents would let me go out overnight,

1080
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 6: first thing I did was drive five hundred mise to

1081
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 6: the west, just to see what the country was like. Yeah,

1082
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,919
Speaker 6: And I've never forgotten how exciting it was when night

1083
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 6: fell on the first time on that drive, and I

1084
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 6: could see the lights of towns thirty and forty miles away,

1085
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 6: because growing up in Louisiana, you can't see forty feet away.

1086
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 6: The vegetation is so dense, And it was very exciting

1087
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 6: to be able to see, ye see country.

1088
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 3: And you spent a fair bit of time running around

1089
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 3: outside in your in your youth, right.

1090
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 6: Oh, I did, Yeah, I grew up in a little

1091
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 6: small town where the woods were, you know, one hundred

1092
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 6: yards away and so, and we didn't have enough guys

1093
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 6: in the town to field one baseball team, let alone

1094
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 6: two baseball teams to play one another. So what I

1095
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 6: got to do for recreation was essentially read books and

1096
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 6: roam around in the woods. And you know, and I

1097
01:03:55,160 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 6: certainly grew up hunting. I didn't wasn't too interested in fishing,

1098
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 6: but I was certainly interested in hunting. And I did

1099
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 6: that through a lot of my teen years into my

1100
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 6: early twenties. And you know, as Randall knows, when I

1101
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 6: was living in Montana. I mean, I can't say that

1102
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 6: I ever actually hunted, but three times, because I wanted

1103
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 6: venison in my freezer, I bought a deer tag and

1104
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 6: shot a little you know, yearling or four corn mule

1105
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 6: deer buck out the window of my living room out

1106
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 6: in the horse.

1107
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:35,959
Speaker 2: I remember when when I first met you, I remember

1108
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 2: you telling me that, and you're very careful not overplay

1109
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 2: the circumstances.

1110
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 6: And so I couldn't say that was a hunt. That

1111
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 6: was more harvesting a deer for the freezer. That was uh,

1112
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 6: you know, but I I still I mean I was

1113
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 6: in my forties and fifties and I still remember how

1114
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 6: to do it at least.

1115
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:58,479
Speaker 4: Well, you also wrote for Field and Stream and you know.

1116
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 6: Field and Stream, Sports of Feel an Outdoor Life. Yeah,

1117
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 6: those are when I started as a writer. That's who

1118
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 6: I wrote for. That was the magazine world that I knew.

1119
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 6: And so I was an English major as an undergraduate

1120
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 6: and had an English professor and a creative writing course

1121
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 6: when I was a junior who had us write things

1122
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 6: that we thought, you know, you might approach a magazine

1123
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 6: for query, a magazine about And I had the fun

1124
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 6: of writing a piece and before the semester was over,

1125
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 6: going into his office and saying Sports a Field just

1126
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,439
Speaker 6: bought that. That's that piece I wrote for you back

1127
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 6: in February. And so that was very fun. And I

1128
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 6: had a you know, just like you did Steve at

1129
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 6: Outdoor what's the magazine outside. I had an editor at

1130
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 6: Sports of Feel in particular, who I guess saw some

1131
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 6: potential and me, and he gave me a few pointers

1132
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 6: and took the first three or four things I wrote,

1133
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 6: and introduced me to editors at Field and Stream and

1134
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 6: Outdoor Life, and I ended up finally for outdoor Life.

1135
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 6: Before I went to graduate school and got a PhD

1136
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 6: in history, I wrote a conservation column for outdoor Life

1137
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 6: for their regional pages. They had these pages in Outdoor

1138
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 6: Life that were designated for particular regions. And I wrote

1139
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 6: a conservation column for the one on what was known

1140
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 6: as the Mid South. And I wrote a conservation column

1141
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 6: for Louisiana Woods and waters. So this was all before

1142
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 6: I ever went to went to graduate school. And you

1143
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 6: know what, the professor thing, I.

1144
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 2: Got a lot of friends who wind up being that

1145
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 2: there into occupation professionally. They wind up into occupation they

1146
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 2: would have had no idea existed when they were a kid. Yeah,

1147
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 2: I mean you asked your kid what they wanted to

1148
01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 2: do and be like detective fireman, veterinarian. Right, And then

1149
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 2: people have jobs that they don't even they don't find

1150
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 2: out a lot of times, you don't even know what

1151
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 2: you're doing was a thing until you're in your twenties.

1152
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 2: In your thirties, you probably had You probably didn't use

1153
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 2: the word growing up. I want to be an environmental historian.

1154
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 6: You you were absolutely right. I never once said that.

1155
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 6: I So I was not the first person in my

1156
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 6: family to go to college. My dad had had gone

1157
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 6: to college, but so I knew something about university life,

1158
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 6: a little bit about it. But I actually went to

1159
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 6: college on an athletic scholarship and with the idea because

1160
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 6: my dad had played semi pro baseball and he wanted

1161
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 6: me to be a baseball player, and with the idea

1162
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 6: of actually doing that. And it didn't last. I didn't

1163
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 6: play baseball in college for more than two years. We

1164
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 6: got a new coach and I didn't like one another,

1165
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 6: and so that was start of the end of that.

1166
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 6: But what I had sort of discovered, and I'm a

1167
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 6: baseball player who's an English major is a little bit

1168
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 6: of an unusual character. And I began to meet professors

1169
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 6: who started pointing me in the direction of where I went.

1170
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 6: And one of them was this guy, this creative writing

1171
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 6: guy I mentioned who when I talked to him about

1172
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 6: my future, I said, I want to be a writer.

1173
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 6: This is my idea. I've always thought, you know, as

1174
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 6: a kid growing up reading books, that's what I wanted

1175
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 6: to do. He said, well, most people who write usually

1176
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 6: do something else as a day job. And I said, well,

1177
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 6: like what he said, Well, I mean, like me. This

1178
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 6: guy wrote Western novels. He said like me, I mean,

1179
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 6: you're a professor, and they actually reward you for writing

1180
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 6: books when you're a professor, And that put the idea

1181
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 6: into my head for the very first time that well, okay,

1182
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 6: so I think maybe what I'll do is I'll go

1183
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 6: ultimately to graduate school and become a professor of some kind,

1184
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 6: and then that will enable me or give me enough

1185
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:05,040
Speaker 6: time to be able to write too. So that's kind

1186
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 6: of what I did. But you're exactly right. As a kid,

1187
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 6: I never said I'm going to grow up and you know,

1188
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 6: be an environmental historian at the University of Montana.

1189
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1190
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, that never happened.

1191
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 2: One of the things I've picked up through my relationship

1192
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 2: with you and talking to you about American history and

1193
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 2: it also I also kind of absorbed it a little

1194
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 2: bit from reading and conversations with the historian Elliott West.

1195
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 2: Is this thing about the West, right, I think that

1196
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 2: if you fall into the into the trap, maybe that's

1197
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 2: not the best word for it, but if you fall

1198
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 2: into the mindset that the West was just sitting there untouched, right,

1199
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 2: whereas Elliott West put it, like Native Americans were just

1200
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 2: in the static they were just basically waiting for Europeans

1201
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 2: to show up in this static state, and then you

1202
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 2: get this idea that then and then Lewis and Clark

1203
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 2: go out there. No one had been there before them.

1204
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 2: They go out there, and then it's just like this

1205
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 2: tidal wave is unleashed, and it all happens like that.

1206
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 2: It all happens through the eighteen hundreds. That sense of

1207
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 2: how Western history went for me really started to fall

1208
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:32,200
Speaker 2: apart when I learned that from the time the first

1209
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 2: European descended the Mississippi. Okay, so from the time the

1210
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 2: first European descended the Mississippi, it was one hundred years

1211
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 2: until the next European descended the Mississippi, or, as Elliott

1212
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 2: West pointed out one of his essays, when Lewis and

1213
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 2: Clark hit the Great Planes, there were people there were

1214
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 2: name of Americans on the Great Plains whose parents had

1215
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 2: been to Paris and come home. And then you start

1216
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:15,600
Speaker 2: realizing that this the job of understanding contact, right of

1217
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 2: understanding European contact, isn't like this little like blip through

1218
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,679
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds. It's centuries long.

1219
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, Elliott steers you correctly. I mean that's been

1220
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:33,639
Speaker 6: one of the things that even in my own career,

1221
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 6: you know, I mean I started out being trained to

1222
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 6: do a more classic kind of Western history, where really

1223
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 6: it does kind of begin with, you know, with Lewis

1224
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 6: and Clark, or maybe if you start being imaginative about it, Okay,

1225
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 6: it starts with, you know, Spanish settlements in New Mexico.

1226
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 6: I mean, so the place where I live, you know,

1227
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 6: Santa Fe Is it's about ten years ago, fifteen years

1228
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:08,759
Speaker 6: ago now it celebrated its four hundredth anniversary as a town.

1229
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 6: Santa Fe was founded in sixteen ten. That's almost two

1230
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 6: hundred years before Lewis and Clark.

1231
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:20,799
Speaker 2: That's incredible, man, Yeah, there's already you go from today

1232
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 2: like to under I always like to understand this. Okay,

1233
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:30,839
Speaker 2: it's twenty twenty five. Okay, if you go that distance

1234
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 2: of time, think about where that puts you. Oh yeah,

1235
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:38,800
Speaker 2: you know, the distance between the distance between Lewis and

1236
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 2: Clark and the northern plains and the founding of Santa Fe,

1237
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 2: the founding of a European like kind of cosmopolitan city

1238
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 2: in New Mexico, was the distance that separates us from

1239
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 2: eighteen twenty five from eighteen twenty five. Yeah, at a

1240
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 2: time when we were just now starting to try steamboats

1241
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,719
Speaker 2: on the Western River. Yeah, so it's that kind of distance,

1242
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 2: and so you have to, you know, as a historian,

1243
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 2: you start learning to incorporate that into your thinking. And

1244
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 2: once I started having the fun of doing that, I

1245
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 2: started pushing it back farther and farther because it became evident.

1246
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 2: So historians primarily rely on written documents, right, but if

1247
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 2: you decide, okay, in this environmental history, and I was

1248
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 2: trained to do this, you don't just rely on the

1249
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 2: written documents. You also rely on archaeology and palaeontology and

1250
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 2: ecology and all these other fields. And if you start

1251
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 2: using those, then suddenly the past starts getting deeper and

1252
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper for you. I mean, you can't come

1253
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 2: up with a great quote from anybody from you know,

1254
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 2: ten thousand years ago. You don't know exactly what we

1255
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 2: call people Clovis and Folsome. We don't really know what

1256
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 2: their names actually were for themselves, because we named them

1257
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 2: after the towns where their archaeologists first found remains of them.

1258
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 2: So it's a kind.

1259
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 6: Of a deep time past that's not perfect, but it

1260
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 6: allows you to think in terms of a really deep

1261
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 6: and ancient history. And when you start doing that, that's

1262
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 6: kind of how I translated the human past in America,

1263
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 6: going back twenty three thousand years to start thinking about

1264
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 6: the past of the animals here, because many of the

1265
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:38,599
Speaker 6: animals in North America, I mean, like horses and their

1266
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:44,799
Speaker 6: ancestors fifty six million years back, Camels or another family

1267
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 6: of animals that had their origins in America and died

1268
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 6: out here while surviving in the rest of the world,

1269
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 6: they go back forty six million years. Passenger pigeons went

1270
01:14:55,200 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 6: back fifteen million years. Bison actually, which we of course

1271
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 6: is now our national mammal in America. We have concluded

1272
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:10,519
Speaker 6: that probably the oldest arrival of bison in North America

1273
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:13,719
Speaker 6: was only about four hundred thousand years ago, so they're

1274
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:18,759
Speaker 6: actually quite recent arrivals compared to something like passenger pigeons.

1275
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:26,680
Speaker 6: Mammoths got here seventeen million years ago. So doing that

1276
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 6: deep time for humans, I think it was a ready

1277
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 6: step from that to start looking at all these animals

1278
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 6: around us. And as we were talking yesterday, talking to

1279
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 6: you and Randall both about this, I mean, one of

1280
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 6: the things I've decided to do because I couldn't see

1281
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 6: that anybody else was really doing it in writing Western

1282
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 6: history was to start taking the animals seriously, to stop

1283
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,479
Speaker 6: thinking about them as Okay, beavers are just you know,

1284
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:59,600
Speaker 6: there's just this lumping animal that everybody that produced the

1285
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 6: beaver trade and start actually looking at So what did

1286
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 6: the presence of beaver's over five million to seven million

1287
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 6: years that's how we think they've been here? What did

1288
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 6: that do in North America? And you began to realize, well,

1289
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 6: hell man beaver ecology totally transformed the continent. They made

1290
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 6: it a much more humid and wetter place. And when

1291
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:25,799
Speaker 6: we started extracting them from the world, it suddenly dried

1292
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:30,440
Speaker 6: out a lot of America because it undermined an ecology

1293
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 6: that they had built up over a really long period

1294
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 6: of time. So taking the animals seriously, I think has

1295
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 6: probably been a step towards, you know, just revising the

1296
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 6: whole story of the West in America.

1297
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 2: You know, one of the biggest gaps that puzzles me.

1298
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 2: And I think it'd be like a it'd be a

1299
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 2: cool book and there would not be any quotes in it,

1300
01:16:55,320 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 2: like you said, But like personally, I folk a lot

1301
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 2: of tension on and I love reading about and talking

1302
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 2: with experts on the Ice Age, the first Americans, the

1303
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 2: Clovis culture, fullsome culture, different migration theories. That's of great

1304
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 2: interest to me. And then you have where we talked

1305
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 2: about some of these the first Europeans to make the

1306
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 2: way in the Southwest and they encounter, probably to their surprise, cities.

1307
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:29,480
Speaker 2: I mean cities.

1308
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolute cities where where there were cities if you

1309
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,640
Speaker 6: go back a thousand years, there were cities in the

1310
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 6: American Southwest that.

1311
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:45,439
Speaker 2: Were that were bigger than London, like more people living

1312
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 2: in them, you know what I mean, architecture, religious facilities,

1313
01:17:53,520 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 2: irrigated crop lands, like how did we get from how

1314
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 2: did you get from? These bands?

1315
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 7: Do?

1316
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:05,680
Speaker 2: I mean these like bands of thirty or forty or

1317
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 2: fifty hunters running around with stone tip tools, like how

1318
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 2: do you get to the cities? Now? I don't think

1319
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 2: that that's understood. I mean it's probably it's understood, but

1320
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 2: I don't think that's like that people like that narrative hasn't.

1321
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 6: Been told now. I think it hasn't, certainly not for

1322
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 6: kind of public consumption. I mean among the the archaeologists,

1323
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 6: you know, David Stewart with his book Anassauzi America. I mean,

1324
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 6: I think he probably told that story. I mean I

1325
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:43,719
Speaker 6: certainly rely on his treatment quite a bit in trying

1326
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:47,200
Speaker 6: to analyze that and to get from I mean, we

1327
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 6: start with Paleolithic big game hunters like the Clovis and

1328
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:55,840
Speaker 6: fulsome people. And once those animals are gone, and they're

1329
01:18:55,880 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 6: gone by about ten thousand, nine thousand years ago, essentially

1330
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:07,480
Speaker 6: what you get is a long period of hunter gatherers

1331
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,800
Speaker 6: where the focus is on smaller animals. I mean, there's

1332
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 6: still deer and elk and things out there, and so

1333
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 6: the big game is smaller, and there's an enhanced focus

1334
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 6: on vegetable products, on plant foods, and so the hunter

1335
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 6: gatherer the very name implies that you've got a new

1336
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:32,479
Speaker 6: focus on plants. You're beginning to rely some and once

1337
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 6: the focus on plants is there, then you're set up

1338
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:40,639
Speaker 6: for some human genius at some point to say, well,

1339
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 6: you know this particular plant that produces this thing we

1340
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 6: now call teocente, which produces this little tiny corn cob,

1341
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 6: But sometimes there's a slightly bigger one. Is there some

1342
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 6: way that we can take the plants that make the

1343
01:19:56,200 --> 01:20:00,559
Speaker 6: slightly bigger ones, and if the next generation the corn

1344
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 6: cob is even a little bit bigger than that plant

1345
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 6: those and of course what they're doing is that they're

1346
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 6: domesticating plants. And I think the reason we reached that

1347
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 6: stage because we reached it in the Old World many

1348
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 6: thousands of years before this happened in the Americas. The

1349
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:20,600
Speaker 6: reason being, of course, is the Americas are settled by

1350
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 6: humans a lot later than say, Europe and Asia get

1351
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 6: settled by humans, and so the whole process over time

1352
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 6: is an accelerated rate in the Old World compared to

1353
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 6: the Americas. But what happened in both places, I think

1354
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 6: to push us in the direction ultimately of crops and

1355
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 6: domesticated animals, is that as the human population grew, relying

1356
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:53,560
Speaker 6: on hunting got harder and harder to do because animals

1357
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 6: became more and more difficult to find. And you finally

1358
01:20:57,360 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 6: reach a point I think where everybody knew when during

1359
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 6: hunting and gathering stages, that you had to keep the

1360
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 6: human population low. And one of the ways they did

1361
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:13,439
Speaker 6: that was basically they engaged in not only abortions, but infanticide.

1362
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 6: Whenever a band of one hundred and twenty people they

1363
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 6: had too many children one year. I mean, the leaders

1364
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 6: knew if we let this go on, we are screwing

1365
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 6: ourselves to the hilt, and so we've got to control

1366
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:33,799
Speaker 6: our population. And that became obviously a psychological burden for people,

1367
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 6: especially for women who were carrying kids, babies. So everybody

1368
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 6: is looking for a way to escape it. And the

1369
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 6: domestication of crops and animals became away. It's hard to

1370
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:52,759
Speaker 6: grow the population now just by relying on hunting, because

1371
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 6: we've thinned the animals to the point where we can't

1372
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:58,120
Speaker 6: really grow the human population. But what if we start

1373
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 6: domesticating things. What if we start domesticating plants and growing

1374
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:06,759
Speaker 6: them ourselves. What if we take these wild goats, these

1375
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 6: gazelles in the Old World, in North America, wild turkeys

1376
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 6: become the primary domesticated animal. What if we take these

1377
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:20,959
Speaker 6: and raise them? And that allows us then to avoid

1378
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 6: this the speed bump of having to sew assiduously keep

1379
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 6: the population down, and that then produces, of course, the

1380
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 6: Great agricultural Revolution, the so called Neolithic Revolution in the

1381
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 6: Old World and five thousand years later in the Americas.

1382
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:41,000
Speaker 6: And so those cities that you and I have walked

1383
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 6: around in Chaco Canyon Historic Park, of course is the

1384
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 6: primary and most dramatic one in North America. Those cities

1385
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 6: resulted from the evolution basically of hunting and gathering culture

1386
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 6: into an agricultural sort of in Choco's case, an empire

1387
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 6: really of hundreds of small farmers growing corn, beans and

1388
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:14,519
Speaker 6: squash that they had imported up from Mexico, because Mexico

1389
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 6: in North America was where the first domestication of plants

1390
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 6: took place, and that domestication then enabled larger populations that

1391
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 6: were capable of producing a city like Chaco, which you know,

1392
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 6: Chaco was such a dramatic and large place, huge buildings.

1393
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:40,160
Speaker 6: There were not buildings the size of those built in

1394
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:44,200
Speaker 6: Chaco in North America until the eighteen eighties. I mean,

1395
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,640
Speaker 6: we don't have any buildings the size of something like

1396
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:53,600
Speaker 6: Pueblo Benito until, you know, only basically one hundred and

1397
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 6: fifty years ago in the United States. But this is

1398
01:23:57,600 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 6: a story. It's sort of like that, you know, that

1399
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 6: other Lewis and Clark expedition and story I was telling.

1400
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:09,360
Speaker 6: It's not one that plays to historical memory in America.

1401
01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:11,240
Speaker 6: I mean, I've talked to a lot of people who

1402
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 6: go to Chaco who are utterly shocked to find the

1403
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 6: ruins of that place. Because grew up on the East coast,

1404
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 6: nobody ever talks about the fact that there was giant city.

1405
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 2: People lived in tents.

1406
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:28,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, people lived in tents and guns and yeah, yeah, I.

1407
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 2: Was gonna I think I told you about this for

1408
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 2: do you remember that the I think he's a physiologist.

1409
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:40,040
Speaker 2: Jared Diamond wrote that he wrote a book Guns, Germs

1410
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 2: and Steel Steel. Did he pass away?

1411
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 6: Jared Diamond, I don't think he has passed away. No,

1412
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 6: I think he's he's still around.

1413
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:49,240
Speaker 2: He kind of begins with this question, I think I

1414
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 2: told you about this forward. Was it Who was it

1415
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 2: that took on the Incins? Was it Bizarro? Yeah?

1416
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:54,639
Speaker 6: Zaro.

1417
01:24:55,400 --> 01:25:00,600
Speaker 2: He begins with this question like, why was it that

1418
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:09,280
Speaker 2: Pizarro came from Spain to attack the Incans? Why didn't

1419
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:13,280
Speaker 2: I don't know who the leader the Incans was. Why

1420
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 2: didn't the Incan Empire go and attack Spain? And I

1421
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 2: think that there's a point if you'd have gone, if

1422
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 2: you'd have been, like, if you'd have visited Earth right

1423
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 2: at that time of the ascendancy of Chaco, you might

1424
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 2: have been like, I think someday these people are gonna

1425
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:37,760
Speaker 2: go and find Europe do you know. I mean, it

1426
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 2: would have seemed like it was head in that direction.

1427
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:44,479
Speaker 2: But then there's certain things like that misses, like the wheel.

1428
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, they don't know, they do not, there's no And

1429
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 6: so one of the strange things about the wheel is

1430
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 6: that they're actually figurines, little small figurines in Aztec Mexico

1431
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 6: that show wheels, but there's not an application of the

1432
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:09,840
Speaker 6: wheel in any kind of of utility form because they

1433
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 6: have not proceeded to the domestication of a beast of

1434
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 6: burden that would pull a wheeled vehicle. And so, yeah,

1435
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 6: the wheel is a very strange one. But I mean

1436
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 6: your question is is really on the mark because at

1437
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 6: the same time that Chako was at its height, it's

1438
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 6: about just roughly a thousand years ago. I mean, all

1439
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 6: those great cities in the Mayan Empire on the Yucatan

1440
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:44,439
Speaker 6: Peninsula were also at their height, and uh ten oach

1441
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 6: teat line, which is what Mexico city. I think. Well,

1442
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:54,280
Speaker 6: I mean, you may be, it may be more accurate

1443
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 6: than I am.

1444
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: But the people that could answer that question, that's what

1445
01:26:58,120 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 2: I call a reading word.

1446
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,799
Speaker 6: It it's a reading word. But that city was also

1447
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:06,720
Speaker 6: I mean, it was absolutely at its height and in

1448
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 6: many respects these big cities of meso America. You know,

1449
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,599
Speaker 6: I mean you guys have probably been to Chichenizza and

1450
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 6: seen the pyramid there, which I mean the first time

1451
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 6: I went there, you could steal climate. They won't let

1452
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 6: you climb it any won't. No, they won't let you

1453
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 6: go up the steps to the top anymore, you know.

1454
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 6: And it is precipitously steep, there's no question. But you know,

1455
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,839
Speaker 6: I had the fun fifteen or so years ago climbing

1456
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:36,880
Speaker 6: to the top of you know, this Temple of cuckl Khan,

1457
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 6: the Temple of Venus, and I mean, holy cow, man,

1458
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 6: that's just it's impressive as hell when you're there. But

1459
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 6: we come out of a you know, a Western European

1460
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 6: kind of sensibility that we were on top of the world.

1461
01:27:55,640 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 6: We were the leaders of civilization. I mean Western Europe

1462
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:02,799
Speaker 6: is I mean, that's what guns, germs and steel about

1463
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:06,200
Speaker 6: is about his argument, Jared Diamond's argument in that book

1464
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,280
Speaker 6: is that the reason Western Europe managed to prevail over

1465
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:13,120
Speaker 6: all those other places is that it happened to sit

1466
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:18,080
Speaker 6: at the far end of the largest land mass on Earth, Eurasia,

1467
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 6: also connected to Africa, and so Europeans got to benefit

1468
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:26,919
Speaker 6: from all the human inventions that took place all over

1469
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 6: Eurasia and Africa. The flow was smooth, The flow was smooth,

1470
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 6: and everything that was invented in China gunpowder managed to

1471
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:39,520
Speaker 6: get to Western Europe, whereas the Americas are completely isolated

1472
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 6: from the rest of the world, not only from the

1473
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 6: ideas of the rest of the world, but you know,

1474
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 6: as we all know, from the diseases that evolved through

1475
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:55,960
Speaker 6: the domestication of animals and living with domesticated animals, Europeans

1476
01:28:56,400 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 6: old worlders ended up developing all sorts of really pretty

1477
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:03,320
Speaker 6: horrific diseases and when they brought them over to the

1478
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 6: America's I mean, what really conquered the Americas. This is

1479
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:12,240
Speaker 6: the germs part of guns, germs and steel, is these

1480
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 6: these exotic diseases that native people had absolutely no immunity to.

1481
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know another one about to not Tillon. Yeah,

1482
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:24,880
Speaker 2: when you think about sort of your if you don't

1483
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:26,719
Speaker 2: have the luxury of spending a lot of time studying

1484
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 2: history and you get this idea of you know, people

1485
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 2: living in tents and small scale habitations, that that's what

1486
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:40,439
Speaker 2: Europeans found. It always struck me that when they when

1487
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:49,000
Speaker 2: they when the Spanish got there, they had zoos. Yeah,

1488
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 2: they had zoos with I mean not foreign animals from

1489
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:58,759
Speaker 2: other continents, but they had zoos holding animals like bison

1490
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:04,200
Speaker 2: from places that they wouldn't even the residents of those

1491
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:09,560
Speaker 2: cities could have gone and seen animals on the streets

1492
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:15,439
Speaker 2: that they would have no prayer of encountering in normal life.

1493
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:18,639
Speaker 2: Things collected from far away, from far to the south,

1494
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:20,439
Speaker 2: from far to the north, broad and you could go like,

1495
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:22,720
Speaker 2: where's that from you? It'd be like as weird as

1496
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:25,600
Speaker 2: when you take your kids they see a giraffe. That

1497
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 2: people would have that experience and see it like yeah,

1498
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:31,639
Speaker 2: like they would have, you know, a jaguar, they would

1499
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 2: have a buffalo, they would have birds from South America.

1500
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 6: Well, it's pretty clear that, you know, aggregates of charismatic

1501
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:52,320
Speaker 6: and intriguing animals from the far edges of human knowledge

1502
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 6: a symbol together for public viewing. In effect, the word,

1503
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:59,720
Speaker 6: of course, our word is zoo. That is a very

1504
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:04,200
Speaker 6: human impulse. I mean, and you know, we have no

1505
01:31:04,320 --> 01:31:08,720
Speaker 6: idea it's possible that the Clovis people had something like that,

1506
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,080
Speaker 6: but as you pointed out, we certainly do know that

1507
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:16,200
Speaker 6: the Aztecs, which had an empire that stretched for hundreds

1508
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 6: thousands of miles in every direction, they were doing that

1509
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 6: very thing. They were collecting animals out at the far

1510
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 6: reaches of their empire and bringing them to the citadel

1511
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:29,120
Speaker 6: city of the empire and assembling them into zoos for

1512
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:34,200
Speaker 6: you know, for the public entertainment of their citizenry. I mean,

1513
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 6: that's that's so, you know. I mean, I've I've have

1514
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:42,680
Speaker 6: argued in my books, especially in Wild New World, the

1515
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:45,800
Speaker 6: most recent one that which is a book about, you know,

1516
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:50,479
Speaker 6: the long term story of humans and animals in North America,

1517
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:54,320
Speaker 6: that this is something and I know I derived this

1518
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:57,680
Speaker 6: from Paul Shepherd, from reading Paul Shepard many years ago,

1519
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:02,599
Speaker 6: that this fact, with the natural history of the living

1520
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:07,439
Speaker 6: world around us, is something that is impossibly ancient in

1521
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:10,559
Speaker 6: the human story. Every time we look back into the past,

1522
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:14,200
Speaker 6: we find examples of it, and it survives today. And

1523
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 6: one of the ways it survives, I mean, I don't

1524
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 6: have children myself. I know you do, though, and I'll

1525
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:22,600
Speaker 6: bet this happened with you, because it happens with it.

1526
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:25,559
Speaker 6: Every time I visit somebody's home and they have young kids,

1527
01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:30,200
Speaker 6: and they show me the nursery, there are always little

1528
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:36,519
Speaker 6: elephants and buffaloes and monkeys, and so what that is

1529
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 6: getting at is that it's knowledge about natural history and

1530
01:32:41,080 --> 01:32:45,479
Speaker 6: about other living creatures. That is the very first step

1531
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:49,799
Speaker 6: in kind of the organization of the brain, in creating

1532
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:53,599
Speaker 6: a taxonomy of the world around you, you know. And

1533
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:56,640
Speaker 6: then when for little boys in particular, when you get

1534
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:58,240
Speaker 6: to be eight or ten years old, you know, you

1535
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 6: start collecting hot wheeled cars and things like that, and

1536
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:04,640
Speaker 6: that provides you with the next step of taxonomy. But

1537
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 6: that human desire to kind of organize everything into an

1538
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:15,920
Speaker 6: understandable world really starts with animals. And that's why we

1539
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 6: do this with toddlers. The first thing you teach them

1540
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:23,160
Speaker 6: really is the difference between well, this is a picture

1541
01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:27,160
Speaker 6: of an elephant. It has this long trunk and it

1542
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 6: has and this is a picture of a horse, it

1543
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:35,639
Speaker 6: has this tail. And that probably you know, is something

1544
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 6: we humans have been doing for two million years.

1545
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about why American? Why American people

1546
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:53,920
Speaker 2: when they put a mobile above the crib? Why is

1547
01:33:53,960 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 2: it African fauna generally?

1548
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:00,639
Speaker 6: Now, that's that's a good question, you know, And why

1549
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,360
Speaker 6: is it elephants allisons and giraffes. I mean, because they're

1550
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 6: so distinguishable. They're distinguishable, you know, interestingly of course there

1551
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:14,120
Speaker 6: it's the living Pleistocene that we're showing them, and so

1552
01:34:14,240 --> 01:34:18,680
Speaker 6: there may be you know, I mean, Randall, take it away, man.

1553
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 6: You should you should maybe do a piece on on

1554
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 6: the evolution of something like that.

1555
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 3: I was just thinking when you were talking about animals,

1556
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,840
Speaker 3: and it's like, yeah, why don't we just hang you know,

1557
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,320
Speaker 3: desks and chairs around them.

1558
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 2: This is your world, this is what you'll have, keyboards,

1559
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 2: a keyboard.

1560
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 6: On the phone.

1561
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:44,200
Speaker 2: It must be some deep like the African fauna must

1562
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:47,960
Speaker 2: be some like deep thing about the cradle of you know,

1563
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:52,519
Speaker 2: like you're speaking to some deep genetic memory of the

1564
01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:55,920
Speaker 2: cradle of Africa or something easy to tell apart.

1565
01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:58,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I also think it's like those are real animals,

1566
01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 3: you know, like they're big, they're toothy, they got wild horns.

1567
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:06,720
Speaker 3: There's something about I don't know, there's something about that,

1568
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:11,519
Speaker 3: the exoticism of those creatures compared to what we see

1569
01:35:11,520 --> 01:35:12,240
Speaker 3: around us today.

1570
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1571
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:15,000
Speaker 3: So I still look at something like an ibex and

1572
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 3: I'm just like, that's an animal.

1573
01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 6: When I was writing Well New World, I kept encountering

1574
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 6: over and over again the stories, especially when you get

1575
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 6: to the twentieth century, when most of the charismatic animals

1576
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:29,759
Speaker 6: in North America are gone by that time, are reduced

1577
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:32,439
Speaker 6: to such small numbers that you hardly ever have a

1578
01:35:32,520 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 6: chance to see them. I kept encountering over and over

1579
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:39,880
Speaker 6: again these people who become really prominent conservationists in the

1580
01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 6: United States, you know, and found all sorts of organizations

1581
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:50,559
Speaker 6: from the Sierra Club on who acquired their fascination for

1582
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:55,160
Speaker 6: nature and for the wild by going to Africa. And

1583
01:35:55,240 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 6: they came back from Africa and decided, Okay, we're going

1584
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:01,920
Speaker 6: to try to do something like that. And it's kind

1585
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:06,000
Speaker 6: of an insides vary size and variety and an indication,

1586
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:09,160
Speaker 6: you know. And of course Africa, as a result of

1587
01:36:09,240 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 6: the big game parks there, preserve these animals so that

1588
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:16,360
Speaker 6: people could go and see them. But it speaks in

1589
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 6: a way to the fact, you know, to Thro's lament

1590
01:36:20,280 --> 01:36:24,559
Speaker 6: back in the eighteen fifties that he lived in this

1591
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:29,919
Speaker 6: impoverished world because his ancestors in New England had already

1592
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:33,040
Speaker 6: taken out all these animals that he wanted to watch.

1593
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 6: Because he kept, you know, these meticulous notes about when

1594
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:39,719
Speaker 6: the birds, particular species of birds arrive in the spring,

1595
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 6: and when they nest, and when the beavers are hatching

1596
01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 6: their or having their kits, and when. So he goes

1597
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 6: through all this process and realizes, oh my god, I'm

1598
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:55,240
Speaker 6: missing the lynx, I'm missing the moose, I'm missing black bears.

1599
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:58,640
Speaker 6: Those have all been taken out. He could read the

1600
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 6: accounts of of the first colonists in New England who

1601
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 6: are describing pigeon flights and huge numbers of wolves, and

1602
01:37:08,479 --> 01:37:10,800
Speaker 6: here he sits in the eighteen fifties and all of

1603
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:14,519
Speaker 6: that is gone, and he feels like, as he says,

1604
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:17,479
Speaker 6: I wish to know an entire heaven and an entire earth,

1605
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:23,160
Speaker 6: except demigods have come along before me and plucked from

1606
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:26,240
Speaker 6: the heavens the best of the stars. And so I think,

1607
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:29,400
Speaker 6: in some ways, what I kept running into with all

1608
01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:33,960
Speaker 6: these American conservationists who had to go to Africa first

1609
01:37:34,040 --> 01:37:38,599
Speaker 6: before they were realizing how important it was to you know,

1610
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:42,439
Speaker 6: campaign on behalf of nature in America has something to

1611
01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:46,519
Speaker 6: do with the fact that we lost so much of

1612
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:50,040
Speaker 6: the magic in North America. And it's like, in order

1613
01:37:50,080 --> 01:37:51,880
Speaker 6: to get it you had to go somewhere else.

1614
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:53,400
Speaker 2: To glimpse it.

1615
01:37:53,439 --> 01:37:55,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, in order to glimpse it and understand.

1616
01:37:56,960 --> 01:38:00,800
Speaker 2: You know, we've touched on this in the past. It's

1617
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:06,120
Speaker 2: kind of like a like a conundrum of history and

1618
01:38:06,200 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 2: talking about Native people's We talked about this when we're

1619
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:12,960
Speaker 2: talking about like Choco society and things. Is there there

1620
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:18,879
Speaker 2: is a sort of a custody battle, a cultural custody

1621
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:22,960
Speaker 2: battle about you know, like whose story is what right?

1622
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:30,360
Speaker 2: Like do if you're not Native American, do you have

1623
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 2: a right to a write r I g h T

1624
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:40,040
Speaker 2: to write w R I T E about Native culture?

1625
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 2: And and and as you're telling like when you're talking

1626
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:47,720
Speaker 2: about it, is there a cult like a like a

1627
01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 2: European bias, a colonial bias? You won't get it right.

1628
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:57,360
Speaker 2: And when we've talked about this, I don't think you don't.

1629
01:38:57,640 --> 01:39:01,320
Speaker 2: You don't punt on it, but you have a point,

1630
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:10,559
Speaker 2: as you said, like there's human history, right, Like as

1631
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:15,479
Speaker 2: a human being, you're interested in human history, and human

1632
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 2: history travels all around the world. And it's weird to

1633
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 2: put this is my word is not yours. I'd like

1634
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:24,920
Speaker 2: to speak on it, but it's weird that you would

1635
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 2: then start drawing sort of like borders of where your

1636
01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:33,760
Speaker 2: interest in human history can't go, you know, like, how

1637
01:39:33,760 --> 01:39:35,960
Speaker 2: have you grapped? Because you've had to be challenged about

1638
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 2: that being a history, Like in teaching and writing about

1639
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 2: the America West and teaching about Native peoples, you had

1640
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,519
Speaker 2: to have encountered the sentiment of like, well, who are

1641
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 2: you to go telling people about that?

1642
01:39:47,439 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 6: You know, yeah, I would, I would say so. One

1643
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:55,880
Speaker 6: of the the probably important steps in my career was

1644
01:39:55,920 --> 01:40:01,759
Speaker 6: I I published an article and a really fancy academic journal,

1645
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:06,439
Speaker 6: the Journal of American History, in nineteen ninety two about

1646
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 6: what Happened to the Buffalo, And it was a complete

1647
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:19,280
Speaker 6: recasting of the story and for the first time. And

1648
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 6: this was a period of time the nineteen eighties, nineteen nineties,

1649
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 6: probably back to the nineteen seventies when a lot of

1650
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 6: people in the environmental movement were sort of using Native

1651
01:40:27,479 --> 01:40:32,080
Speaker 6: people as you know, here were our stand ins for

1652
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 6: conservation living, environmental living. I mean, you all remember the

1653
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:42,679
Speaker 6: famous ad where the Indian steps out of his canoe

1654
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:47,479
Speaker 6: onto the shore of Manhattan Island and he steps out

1655
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:50,439
Speaker 6: and there's trash all underfoot and a tear rolls down

1656
01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:56,080
Speaker 6: his face. Well, that particular piece that I did about

1657
01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:59,600
Speaker 6: what happened to Buffalo was it was not only a

1658
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 6: complete recasting of the story and kind of an environmental

1659
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,599
Speaker 6: telling of the story. I pulled in things that nobody

1660
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 6: had ever pulled in before, like when horses were reintroduced

1661
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:12,960
Speaker 6: into the Americas and went wild. I mean, they obviously

1662
01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:16,080
Speaker 6: were drinking the water and grazing the grass that bison

1663
01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:20,919
Speaker 6: had also been subsisting on, and so they had an effect.

1664
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:24,759
Speaker 6: And there were whole numbers of things that I plugged

1665
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:27,880
Speaker 6: into that story that I told. A changing climate. In

1666
01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:31,639
Speaker 6: the middle of the nineteenth century, there was a drought

1667
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 6: that lasted for like fifteen years on the Great Plains

1668
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 6: and reduced the numbers of Buffalo and there so I

1669
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:41,280
Speaker 6: went through this whole sequence of five or six sort

1670
01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 6: of new and compelling. Obviously they were compelling because a

1671
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 6: lot of other historians, like Elliott West sort of immediately

1672
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:51,879
Speaker 6: picked up on this, these compelling reasons for what happened.

1673
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:54,120
Speaker 6: And one of the things I also did was I

1674
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:56,559
Speaker 6: pointed out, which you know, people were kind of shy

1675
01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:59,840
Speaker 6: about doing at the time, that Native people had been

1676
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:03,800
Speaker 6: seduced into the market economy. And just as we were

1677
01:42:03,840 --> 01:42:08,640
Speaker 6: talking about this yesterday, it was a situation where Europeans

1678
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 6: were offering a transformative technology metalware guns, and if you

1679
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 6: didn't do it in exchange for bison robes, and if

1680
01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:24,600
Speaker 6: you didn't participate in it and everybody else, all the

1681
01:42:24,640 --> 01:42:28,160
Speaker 6: other native groups around you did, you ended up disadvantaging

1682
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:32,519
Speaker 6: yourself to the point where you might not survive. Whereas

1683
01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:36,680
Speaker 6: the southern Cheyennes just down the way, we're going to

1684
01:42:36,720 --> 01:42:39,840
Speaker 6: do very well because they, in fact were participating in

1685
01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:40,759
Speaker 6: the market trade.

1686
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:42,640
Speaker 2: And they're now armed with guns.

1687
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:44,639
Speaker 6: And they're armed with guns, and they're armed with all

1688
01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:49,800
Speaker 6: sorts of metal tools. And so I talked about that,

1689
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:52,600
Speaker 6: and so what that meant, of course, was that in

1690
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:56,800
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety two an article comes out that recasts the

1691
01:42:56,840 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 6: whole story about what happened to Buffalo in the nineteenth century,

1692
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 6: and it also talks about the Indian role in it. Well, immediately,

1693
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:08,920
Speaker 6: as you might suspect, had various Native people get in

1694
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:12,920
Speaker 6: touch with me and say exactly what you were referring

1695
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,880
Speaker 6: to a few minutes ago, what gives you the right

1696
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:20,080
Speaker 6: to say this, to write about this. One of the

1697
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:25,320
Speaker 6: people who did so was Vinedaloria and Vine Deloria, who

1698
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 6: was a very famous Indian author. In those days he

1699
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,960
Speaker 6: was at the University of Colorado. He was famous for

1700
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 6: books like God Has Read Custarded for Your Sins, and

1701
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:40,000
Speaker 6: Vinedaloria called me up and said, I read your piece

1702
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:45,880
Speaker 6: and I think it's really good. And what I want

1703
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:48,760
Speaker 6: you to do, if you would, is come down to

1704
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:51,640
Speaker 6: the University of Colorado and spend three days with me.

1705
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:55,400
Speaker 6: We're having a conference. I'm bringing in the wildlife managers

1706
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 6: from a bunch of the western reservations and I want

1707
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:00,559
Speaker 6: you to come down, but I I don't want you

1708
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:04,320
Speaker 6: to speak. I don't need you to tell them the

1709
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:07,519
Speaker 6: story that you just wrote about Buffalo. I just want

1710
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 6: you to come down here and sit beside me and

1711
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 6: listen to them. And I said, okay, I will do it,

1712
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:16,679
Speaker 6: and that's exactly what I did, and so I never

1713
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 6: find Laurie never asked me to speak, And for three

1714
01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 6: days I sat right beside him, sort of in the

1715
01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:24,840
Speaker 6: protection of this guy who was his illumining figure, and

1716
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 6: listened to all these wildlife managers talk about the Native

1717
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 6: approach to managing wildlife. And of course what he was

1718
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:34,120
Speaker 6: interested in having me do is to understand the Native

1719
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 6: approach to managing wildlife. But what I brought away from

1720
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:44,320
Speaker 6: that particular experience, And I have said this in every

1721
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:47,519
Speaker 6: book that I have written that includes a section on

1722
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:50,240
Speaker 6: Native people since and on all kinds of other people.

1723
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 6: Is that, just as you inferred a few minutes ago,

1724
01:44:57,200 --> 01:45:00,920
Speaker 6: I'm interested in the human story, and I think as

1725
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:05,559
Speaker 6: a human I have a perfect right to write about humans,

1726
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:13,480
Speaker 6: an right to be able to write about humans, regardless

1727
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:16,639
Speaker 6: of their culture. And I think in a way, the

1728
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:19,920
Speaker 6: whole impulse was, you know, I'm an Italian American. Only

1729
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:22,360
Speaker 6: I can write about Italian Americans. Only I can write

1730
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:26,479
Speaker 6: about Christopher Columbus or something. I think that's a stage

1731
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:33,960
Speaker 6: in our development that probably is kind of dropping away

1732
01:45:34,040 --> 01:45:38,760
Speaker 6: some because I think, to me, the argument that we're

1733
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:41,080
Speaker 6: all human beings and that we should be interested in

1734
01:45:41,120 --> 01:45:44,559
Speaker 6: the human story everywhere among every group of people, we

1735
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 6: all come from the same source. We're all part of

1736
01:45:47,320 --> 01:45:54,000
Speaker 6: the evolutionary river, the Darwinian River. That's the stronger argument here,

1737
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 6: and so I stand by that.

1738
01:45:59,439 --> 01:46:02,479
Speaker 2: It'd be a uh. I think it'd be in many ways,

1739
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, an impoverished world if you weren't able to

1740
01:46:06,200 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 2: bring all those different perspectives to things. You know.

1741
01:46:09,479 --> 01:46:10,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think like.

1742
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:13,280
Speaker 2: That big picture of like the human story is pretty

1743
01:46:14,040 --> 01:46:19,960
Speaker 2: compelling when you imagine that when when Allen, when humans

1744
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:21,840
Speaker 2: spread all around the world and they started to meet

1745
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:25,720
Speaker 2: back up, they were meeting back up, you know what

1746
01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:29,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you sort of lose sight of that that

1747
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:33,680
Speaker 2: like that people these groups moved around and it was

1748
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:35,720
Speaker 2: so long they kind of forgot about each other, They

1749
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 2: lost track of each other. But then all a sudden

1750
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:40,000
Speaker 2: they come back and they're like, wow, yeah.

1751
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:43,639
Speaker 6: Look what you did with your time. Yeah, you guys

1752
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 6: got so tan, and everybody is fascinated you know, everybody

1753
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 6: is fascinated by by everybody else. I mean, that's part

1754
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:56,719
Speaker 6: of the whole first contact, you know, notion, is that

1755
01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:02,559
Speaker 6: we get to see these people who maybe thirty thousand

1756
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:05,640
Speaker 6: years ago we actually knew some of their ancestors or

1757
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:08,599
Speaker 6: our ancestors knew their ancestors, and now once again we're

1758
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:11,080
Speaker 6: meeting up and seeing them, and wow, look what you

1759
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 6: guys did with your time and your place, and it's

1760
01:47:13,920 --> 01:47:17,040
Speaker 6: absolutely fascinating. I mean, that's sort of the whole premise

1761
01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:21,160
Speaker 6: of cultural anthropology is that, oh my god, you know,

1762
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:28,280
Speaker 6: humans have sort of fractured into tens of thousands of

1763
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:32,360
Speaker 6: cultural groups, with all these different deities and all these

1764
01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 6: different ideas of creation, and wow, isn't it incredible to

1765
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:40,559
Speaker 6: sort of listen to what you guys have to say

1766
01:47:40,600 --> 01:47:43,759
Speaker 6: about what you think is going on with human life?

1767
01:47:44,360 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean that's because like you, and I think,

1768
01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 6: like all of us sitting around the table, and probably

1769
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:54,080
Speaker 6: most of the people listening to this, I'm fascinated with

1770
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:59,839
Speaker 6: all those differences. Yeah, I would say the stronger argument

1771
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:05,520
Speaker 6: is it's the human story that compels us, and nobody

1772
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:11,720
Speaker 6: has any kind of lock on a particular one. I mean,

1773
01:48:11,760 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 6: I'm certainly willing to conceive that some people might not

1774
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:18,000
Speaker 6: want to share the details of their religious practices and

1775
01:48:18,040 --> 01:48:21,400
Speaker 6: ceremonies and all that. That's everybody's perfect right. But the

1776
01:48:21,439 --> 01:48:26,519
Speaker 6: bigger story, I think is ours for understanding, because that's

1777
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:28,840
Speaker 6: how we managed to figure out who we are.

1778
01:48:29,520 --> 01:48:33,120
Speaker 2: I took this class one time, called the Structure of

1779
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:38,160
Speaker 2: Modern English, and in it the guy had said the professor,

1780
01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:40,320
Speaker 2: I can't remember who taught that class. But instead, if

1781
01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:43,479
Speaker 2: at the end of the Civil War, if you had

1782
01:48:43,760 --> 01:48:49,519
Speaker 2: built an impenetrable barrier along the Mason Dixon Line, that

1783
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 2: at this point those two populations wouldn't be able to another,

1784
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 2: you wouldn't communicate anymore. So you imagine that little gap

1785
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:01,439
Speaker 2: and that kind of like so when you imagine these

1786
01:49:01,920 --> 01:49:06,519
Speaker 2: these these peoples getting separated. He's talking about not being

1787
01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:08,559
Speaker 2: able to communicate in one hundred years, a couple hundred years.

1788
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:11,600
Speaker 2: Imagine these groups of people separating and you get to

1789
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:16,360
Speaker 2: watch what like ten thousand years of being subject to

1790
01:49:16,360 --> 01:49:21,280
Speaker 2: different climates and then different founder effects. Just it could

1791
01:49:21,320 --> 01:49:25,160
Speaker 2: be as small as personality differences. That's a very good point, absolutely,

1792
01:49:25,479 --> 01:49:31,280
Speaker 2: And the wildly different directions people go in terms of religion.

1793
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:35,599
Speaker 2: You see these crazy themes animism, you know, all these

1794
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:38,880
Speaker 2: cultures holding out of the ideas that that landscape features

1795
01:49:39,400 --> 01:49:42,160
Speaker 2: have a sort of spirit or personality. You see these

1796
01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:50,040
Speaker 2: continuities that they'll that folks will eventually figure out agriculture

1797
01:49:50,120 --> 01:49:56,360
Speaker 2: if they can, they'll get better and better at launching projectiles, right,

1798
01:49:56,880 --> 01:50:01,679
Speaker 2: They'll like a lot of them will figure out vertical wall, right,

1799
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:02,559
Speaker 2: but on the wheel.

1800
01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:06,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, but other things are just so different, man, Yeah,

1801
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:08,680
Speaker 6: other things are so different. Now, that's a that's a

1802
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:15,920
Speaker 6: really great argument, and that's why it's fascinating to explore

1803
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:19,799
Speaker 6: it and to approach all of it with a curious

1804
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:24,560
Speaker 6: and open mind and to allow yourself to be completely

1805
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:30,439
Speaker 6: intrigued without you know, without falling back on the kind

1806
01:50:30,479 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 6: of where Okay, so our ideas are better than than

1807
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:37,880
Speaker 6: their ideas. I mean, it's not a case of better,

1808
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:41,400
Speaker 6: it's a case of different. And how did you guys

1809
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:45,479
Speaker 6: arrive at this particular notion. But there are some obviously

1810
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:49,280
Speaker 6: some commonalities that are all over the planet, and you know,

1811
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 6: the old animistic religion ideas that you just mentioned, where

1812
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:57,799
Speaker 6: there are deities in wild animals, and there are deities

1813
01:50:57,840 --> 01:51:01,480
Speaker 6: in landforms and all of that that it's so widespread

1814
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:08,799
Speaker 6: as part of the European tradition too. The Druids, for example,

1815
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:13,080
Speaker 6: of only twelve hundred and fifteen hundred years ago in

1816
01:51:13,120 --> 01:51:17,040
Speaker 6: Western Europe are certainly practitioners of that kind of animistic

1817
01:51:17,040 --> 01:51:21,240
Speaker 6: approach to religion. So it's something that is so widespread

1818
01:51:21,240 --> 01:51:24,720
Speaker 6: that it's clear it probably dates back a very very

1819
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:27,800
Speaker 6: long time. I argue while a New World in fact,

1820
01:51:27,840 --> 01:51:31,280
Speaker 6: that the idea that native people have of being kin

1821
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:35,599
Speaker 6: to other animals, to the European line about that when

1822
01:51:35,640 --> 01:51:38,960
Speaker 6: in a different direction where humans are we're the only

1823
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:41,040
Speaker 6: ones created in the image of God and the only

1824
01:51:41,040 --> 01:51:44,200
Speaker 6: ones with an everlasting soul, and everything else is different.

1825
01:51:45,200 --> 01:51:49,679
Speaker 6: And that actually is an anomaly compared to the idea

1826
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:53,639
Speaker 6: that which is kind of a proto Darwinian idea that

1827
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:57,360
Speaker 6: we're all related to one another, we're all part of

1828
01:51:57,400 --> 01:52:01,400
Speaker 6: the same kind of kinship order. And it requires somebody

1829
01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:04,919
Speaker 6: like Darwin using science in the nineteenth century to finally

1830
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:09,200
Speaker 6: bring the European world back to that recognition because it

1831
01:52:09,240 --> 01:52:12,559
Speaker 6: had gone in a sort of an unusual direction with

1832
01:52:12,640 --> 01:52:15,519
Speaker 6: the notion while humans are completely different from everything else

1833
01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:19,720
Speaker 6: out there, I mean, we're we're special, we're exceptional, and

1834
01:52:19,760 --> 01:52:21,880
Speaker 6: everything else that's something else.

1835
01:52:22,840 --> 01:52:26,560
Speaker 2: While rather than being entangled in this kind of elaborate

1836
01:52:26,600 --> 01:52:29,880
Speaker 2: give and take relationship where you had to show you

1837
01:52:29,920 --> 01:52:33,400
Speaker 2: had to show honor to other species or else all

1838
01:52:33,439 --> 01:52:37,000
Speaker 2: the species would deprive you of the benefits of their youth.

1839
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 6: Since it, yeah, that's it, and that I think is

1840
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:43,200
Speaker 6: very old in the human experience.

1841
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:45,960
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to I'm going to close with a

1842
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:52,320
Speaker 2: couple of details here. The American westl Dan Floyd's will

1843
01:52:52,320 --> 01:52:55,200
Speaker 2: premiere May six. You can find it anywhere you find

1844
01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:59,320
Speaker 2: your podcast. It'll pop up every other Tuesday, m h Yeah,

1845
01:52:59,360 --> 01:53:02,600
Speaker 2: on its own and it'll be in at in the

1846
01:53:03,280 --> 01:53:07,680
Speaker 2: history category if you're if you're shopping around, I have

1847
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:12,800
Speaker 2: here short show description and then show description. But the

1848
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:18,240
Speaker 2: short show description is only two lines shorter. I'm gonna

1849
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 2: do the big dog the Dog. Dan Floy celebrates the

1850
01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:27,040
Speaker 2: American West by chronicling the heroes, scoundrels, and events that

1851
01:53:27,120 --> 01:53:29,720
Speaker 2: shaped its history, from the Battle of Adobe Walls to

1852
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 2: the Mountain Metals Massacre. What goes back more than that?

1853
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:33,360
Speaker 2: Where's the other one?

1854
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:35,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's got to be the other one. That sounds

1855
01:53:35,439 --> 01:53:36,280
Speaker 6: like an.

1856
01:53:36,080 --> 01:53:40,759
Speaker 2: Early longtime Western author Dan Floorries presents a big picture

1857
01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:44,640
Speaker 2: history of an American West you've never encountered, Covering a

1858
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:48,839
Speaker 2: vast span in a Western America whose landscapes and wild

1859
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:53,840
Speaker 2: animals drew people from around the world. This podcast tells

1860
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:57,280
Speaker 2: a news story of our most fascinating region to give

1861
01:53:57,320 --> 01:54:03,439
Speaker 2: people a sense. The series opens up with kind of

1862
01:54:03,479 --> 01:54:08,160
Speaker 2: an overview. It's called West of Everything opens up with

1863
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:11,160
Speaker 2: some of the deep antiquity and some and introduced to

1864
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:16,320
Speaker 2: some of the broader themes. Episode two is Clovisia. Is

1865
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:17,280
Speaker 2: that how you like pronounce that?

1866
01:54:17,479 --> 01:54:17,919
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1867
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:24,360
Speaker 2: Clovisia The beautiful about the early human cultures Clovis cultures,

1868
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:28,280
Speaker 2: Ravens and Coyotes. America is episode three, and that gets

1869
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:34,240
Speaker 2: into that that long period we talked about between early

1870
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:39,040
Speaker 2: arriving humans, what happened between then in European contact, and

1871
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:43,440
Speaker 2: how did people seem to have developed.

1872
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:43,920
Speaker 6: A very.

1873
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:50,640
Speaker 2: I'll call it harmonious or static environment, static relationship with

1874
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:53,480
Speaker 2: the natural world. All of a sudden, we go ten

1875
01:54:53,520 --> 01:54:57,360
Speaker 2: thousand years and there's like one extinction. Yeah, and ten

1876
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:00,160
Speaker 2: thousand years of human history in the New World. There's

1877
01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 2: one extinction, that's right, and then man, we get busy

1878
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:12,520
Speaker 2: un extinctions. It changes after that. Uh old Man America

1879
01:55:14,160 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 2: is a story of kind of why does the coyote

1880
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:22,320
Speaker 2: or the coyote, why does the coyote come in as

1881
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:27,920
Speaker 2: such a complex religious figure in Native American culture? The

1882
01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 2: Wild New World of the American Serengetti is episode five

1883
01:55:33,160 --> 01:55:36,720
Speaker 2: about you know, everybody's idea of the Serengetti in Africa,

1884
01:55:37,280 --> 01:55:40,600
Speaker 2: about that that was the perception that people who arrived

1885
01:55:40,600 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 2: on the Grand Plains had at first. It was it

1886
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:46,600
Speaker 2: was it was it was a Sarngetti of its time.

1887
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 2: Survivors from a Lost World Episode six talks about the

1888
01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:55,160
Speaker 2: American prong horn there's an episode on something we touched

1889
01:55:55,200 --> 01:55:58,560
Speaker 2: on today, Jefferson's other Lewis and Clark and that, Uh,

1890
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:00,680
Speaker 2: that's the seven.

1891
01:56:00,480 --> 01:56:01,920
Speaker 6: Episodes, it's the first seven.

1892
01:56:02,000 --> 01:56:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a lot of stuff if you're a fan

1893
01:56:04,640 --> 01:56:06,240
Speaker 2: of American history, if you're a fan of the West,

1894
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:09,200
Speaker 2: which is a lot of stuff that you probably don't

1895
01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:11,640
Speaker 2: know about, but that will really shape your understanding of

1896
01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:14,600
Speaker 2: these other big moments and put those other big moments

1897
01:56:14,640 --> 01:56:15,800
Speaker 2: into context.

1898
01:56:16,360 --> 01:56:18,960
Speaker 6: I think my favorite phrase for something like this is

1899
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:21,880
Speaker 6: that it will rearrange the furniture in your head.

1900
01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:25,600
Speaker 2: So when you get to be like I do reading

1901
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,400
Speaker 2: about the battle a Little Bighorn, you'll have a much

1902
01:56:28,400 --> 01:56:32,160
Speaker 2: more expansive view of how that. You'll have a instead

1903
01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:34,440
Speaker 2: of a those few days that led up to that,

1904
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:37,360
Speaker 2: you'll have a what are the thousands of years that

1905
01:56:37,440 --> 01:56:40,800
Speaker 2: led to this moment? Yeah? Yeah, all right, thank you

1906
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:43,040
Speaker 2: Dan for coming on. Can't wait for the show.

1907
01:56:43,440 --> 01:56:45,720
Speaker 6: Thanks for all of this. I appreciate it. Man.

1908
01:56:46,160 --> 01:56:50,680
Speaker 7: Everyone subscribe to the new feed. Very important. Thank you.