WEBVTT - Why are collegiate sports so often a man’s game? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.279 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and welcome to Next Question 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.400 on today's episode. I knew from the first time I 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:09.280 picked up the ball this was something I wanted to 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:11.639 do the rest of my life. Just in time for 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.800 March Madness, I sit down with Muffett McGraw, head coach 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.280 of the Notre Dame women's basketball team. Muffett is one 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.800 of the winningess coaches in the history of the sport, 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.680 one of just five coaches in men or women's Division 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:30.560 one basketball with more than nine hundred and twenty career wins. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.279 She's led the Fighting Irish to the Final four an 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.360 impressive nine times and has taken home the national championship 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:42.199 titled twice, most recently and memorably in two thousand eighteen, 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.800 when Notre Dame one with a heart thumping buzzer beater 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:58.920 hon Jennifer j Seventeen years to the day, the Notre 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:06.679 Dame party as Hall of Famer. Muffett McGraw is now 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.880 in her thirty third season at Notre Dame, but she's 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.919 always been an outspoken advocate for women in sports. In fact, 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.560 during the n C Double A Final four last year, 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.119 her impassioned press conference about the need for more women 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.800 leaders went viral. We don't have enough female role models, 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.480 we don't have enough visible women leaders, We don't have 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.520 enough women in power. Girls are socialized to know when 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.800 they come out, generals are already set. Men run the world. 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.120 Men have the power, Men make the decisions. But wouldn't 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.679 it be great if we could teach them to watch 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.080 how women lead. When you look at men's basketball and 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:49.320 the jobs go to men, why shouldn't one of the 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.440 jobs and women's basketball go to women? Right now? Few 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.480 women sit at the top of the college athletics food chain. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.560 If you look at one of the most powerful jobs 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.480 at athletic director, only ten percent of them nationwide are 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.480 women today, though you'll meet one of them. Growing up 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:13.320 in the industry, there were that many um female role 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.840 models in key decision making positions in athletics. Carla Williams 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.840 made history in two thousand seventeen when she became the 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:25.720 University of Virginia's athletic director, the first African American woman 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.560 to lead athletics at one of the Power five Conference schools, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:35.440 the highest most competitive level of college sports. As ironic 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:40.160 as it is, most of my mentors athletic director mentors 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.800 are men. Later, Carla tells us what it's been like 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:48.320 being a pioneer in this male dominated field. But first, 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.920 Muffatt McCraw on what's behind the lack of diversity in 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.440 college sports and how she forged her own path. So 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.720 my next question in college sports, when are women like 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.040 Carla Williams and Muffett McGraw going to be the rule 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:11.160 not the exception. If there's any indication of how good 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.560 a leader Muffett McGraw really is, just look to what 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.399 her players go on to accomplish. A Women's Basketball Hall 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:23.000 of Famer, two Olympians, twenty two All Americans, and twenty 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:27.000 two current or former w NBA players, not to mention 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.520 a number of coaches at the professional and college level. 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.960 This is Beth Cunningham. I played for coach mraw, graduated 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:39.280 in nine and I'm also in my eighth year coaching 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.480 alongside her at the University of Notre Dame. Beth Cunningham 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.960 is Notre Dame's associate head coach. She's one of a 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.040 few former players we asked to talk about how Muffett 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:54.920 shaped their lives on and off the court. She has 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.600 taught me how to be a confident leader and how 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.520 to lead. She's taught me the importance of doing things 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.120 the right way, not necessarily the easiest way, but the 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.800 right way. Mamma has taught me how as a woman 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.320 to go after what I want from life, so to 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.880 speak up for myself and other women at all opportunities. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.400 That's Sarah leive Shirt, another former Muffett McGraw player and 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:25.200 one of the Originals Class of Sarah is now the 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.800 director of Athletics Advancement at Notre Dame. She taught me 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.640 how to be resilient in the face of adversity, how 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.480 to work harder than my mind and body thought capable, 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.839 and ultimately that to strive to be as good as 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:43.960 a man is to underachieved. Over the course of her 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.960 forty plus year career, Muffett has had the chance to 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.359 influence a lot of young women, but she says she 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.520 never really set out to become a role model. I 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.400 don't think I went into it thinking I'm going to 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.400 be able to mold these young women, and I'm going 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.680 to be able to teach these women something about um 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.760 how they can step up and use their voice. You know. 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:04.320 I don't think it was anything like that it was 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.560 all about just the game, and that love of the 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:08.840 game goes way back to her days as a little 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.320 girl playing on the neighborhood courts in a Philadelphia suburb. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.240 Growing up in that time, no social media, there was, 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.560 you know, really you left the house, your mom didn't 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.040 know exactly where you were, and it was always I 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.120 was down at the playground, Me and nine guys down 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.599 at the playground. And you know, sports was always sort 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.200 of a meritocracy. If you can earn it, if you 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.880 have the ability, you're gonna get in the game. So 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:33.400 I was fortunate that I was able to get in 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.799 the game and nobody ever look twice at me. Muffett 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.159 started playing basketball well before Title nine was passed in 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:44.039 ninety two. That law, you might recall, was part of 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.920 a sweeping set of education amendments that made it illegal 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:52.240 for any institution receiving federal funding to discriminate on the 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.800 basis of sex. That met Schools at every level, from 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:00.240 elementary to college were expected to provide equal opportunities to 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.160 their male and female students, both in the classroom and 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.640 in the gym. And it was lucky for Muffett back then, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:12.160 her Catholic high school was surprisingly progressive. Hard to believe, 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.240 as this is the Catholic Church. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.719 was way ahead of Title nine. So girls were playing 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:19.760 basketball in the leads and I know in the sixties. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:21.359 I'm not even sure if it was before that, but 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.200 way before Title nine came out in the early seventies, 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.479 they had teams for girls. But the program did have 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.640 its limitations. When I was playing in the early seventies, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:32.960 we were playing six on six at that time, which 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.680 was horrible and not even a real game of basketball. 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.280 It started out three on three at each end, then 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.719 it graduated two two at each end, with rovers going 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.839 back and forth, and then finally in high school we 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:45.600 got back to five on five, but we still had 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.800 to do it while wearing a skirt. Oh, that's so funny. 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.560 That must have been kind of awkward at times. Oh 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.440 my god, let's not forget our femininity as uh, you know, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.760 childbirth is a pain free experience, but running up and 0:06:57.800 --> 0:06:59.919 down a basketball court, boy, that's that's something we're not 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.240 ready for. That's so funny. Well, it's nice to get 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.039 the Catholic Church a little bit of credit for being progressive, 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.120 at least in that arena, right, Yeah, for women, that's 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.560 very unusual for them. Yeah. So meanwhile, you played basketball 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:17.600 at St. Joseph's University and women's varsity basketball was pretty 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.400 much brand new there. What was it like back then 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:22.760 to play at the college level or did you feel 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.000 like you were, you know, very well prepared for that 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.960 given your high school experience. Well, it was the first 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.520 year it was a sport at St. Joe's, first year 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.960 returned varsity, so I was thrilled just to be a 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:35.880 part of it. There were no athletic scholarships. You paid 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.560 your own way, We did our own laundry, We we 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.800 drove ourselves to games. That was completely unlike what's going 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.760 on now and and completely different from what the men 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:47.520 were going through. We used to sit on the sidelines 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.120 and wait for them to finish practice, and they would 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.239 practice for as long as they wanted, whenever they wanted, 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:54.280 and we would just wait patiently, waiting on the side 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:57.040 until they finished. And it sounds like the Muffett sounds 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:02.040 like the guys were real jerks. They could be. I mean, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.520 they thought very highly of themselves in their programs and 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.920 not very highly of you all, and kind of I 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:11.760 think you know, sort of dismissed your desire to play. Yeah, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.680 I think I think they absolutely did that. And you know, socially, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.600 it wasn't that accepted at that time for women to 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.960 be playing sports. So we had to fight against a 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.680 lot of stereotypes and we didn't have a lot of advantages. 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:25.160 But we just we played for love of the game, 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.240 and that's that's all we cared about, was that we 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.960 love what we're doing. But how did you start to 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.880 kind of develop your leadership skills? You know? I think 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:35.559 it started way back when I was playing at the 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.800 playground down there with the nine guys. I think that 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.480 some of the things that you learn. There's so many 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.200 great lessons that sports teaches you about work ethic and 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.000 sacrifice and being a team player and and understanding your role. 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.880 A little self awareness is always good. But the thing 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.679 I learned from playing down at the playground, there's no supervision, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.840 there's no referees, So you learned conflict resolution. You learn 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.160 that you have to stand up for yourself. Um know, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.120 the ball was in or out? Who hit it out? 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.880 Did I get fouled? And you start to learn how 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.240 people look at each other and if you're the kind 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.160 of guy that is calling a foul every time you 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.319 miss a shot. You find out that people don't want 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.160 you on their team anymore. They're not going to enjoy 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:15.560 playing with you. So I think you kind of learn 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.160 a lot about personalities, how you can talk to some 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.400 people a little differently than others. But I think the 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.280 thing that fascinates me about leadership is how different so 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.360 many leaders are and they can all be successful. There's introverts, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.120 there's extroverts. Uh, there's people that listen a little bit more, 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.320 there's people that talk a little bit more. But I 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.640 think the biggest thing is leading by example. Is is 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.880 something that I always tell my team that's expected, that 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.200 that's that's something that you have to do. That's not leadership. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.600 Leadership is not being afraid to use your voice, and 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.920 especially as a woman um starting out with not a 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.000 lot of people supporting us, you had to be able 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.640 to go out and really understand that this is what 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:55.520 I want, this is what I'm gonna say, and you 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.280 can't think that much about what other people are going 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.000 to say about it. What made you decide to give 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.840 coaching a try? Well, I graduated from St. Joe's. I 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.600 was a sociology criminal justice major, and I just really 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.600 wanted to save the world, and I had no idea 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.240 what that meant sociology. Not a lot of jobs really 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.280 out there in the local high school. Job opened, and 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.240 so I thought, yeah, I'll give it a try. I 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.920 wanted to stay in basketball, but there was wasn't the 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.679 opportunity to play professionally, so I took the job at 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:26.760 Archbishop Carol. In my first practice, I was just completely 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.640 consumed and knew this, this is definitely a passion that 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:31.959 I'm going to pursue. You know. It was all about 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.760 offense and defense, and I just I love puzzles. I 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.160 loved just kind of doodling on napkins and watching games. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.320 And of course we don't have any female role models 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:42.720 back then, so I'd watch the NBA, I look at 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:44.760 things that they were doing and try to bring that 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.000 back to the women's side. I know that you had 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:52.160 a short lived stint at the Women's Professional Basketball Association, 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.360 and I'm curious what that was like for you, because 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.000 that was a precursor to the w n b A. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.360 That was exciting for me. It was nineteen eighty I 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.199 played in California and mar team with the California Dreams. 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:06.360 So my husband got to wear a shirt that said 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.680 my wife is a dream and we would, uh, we 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:11.679 would go to the arena and we could count the 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.520 number of people there during the national anthem and probably 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.360 named most of them. Um. So it didn't get quite 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.040 the attention. The league eventually folded because of financial problems. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.760 My contract was for eleven thousand dollars and I thought 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.920 it was the greatest thing ever, And you know, I 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.280 knew it was going to be a difficult thing to start. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.920 But we've gone a long way obviously since then. I mean, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.840 things have grown tremendously and I think they're getting better 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:34.880 now with Kathy Engelbert in charge of the w n 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:36.959 b A, but we still have such a long way 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.240 to go. What were some of the challenges back then 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:44.080 to kind of get women's professional basketball to a place 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.800 where people were supportive. I think the first thing was 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.640 just having some media attention and right now and I 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.000 think even today, I think we get about four percent 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.719 of media attention across all of um, you know, through 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.839 ESPN or newspapers or whatever kind of if there's news 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.840 out there anymore, we we just don't get any attention 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.679 people didn't even know we had a league, and I 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:06.840 think there's still some people that are unsure about the 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:08.960 w n b A. So I think we need to 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:13.080 have a little more better marketing advertising. It's a great product. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:14.679 I think people have to come out and see it 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.199 and they'll get hooked on it. It's happening in college. 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.200 I think attendance has grown over the years. I think 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.000 people are getting more excited about it. We're getting a 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.920 little more exposure. I think we're on TV quite a bit, 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.560 and I think that's really helping us. But we just 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.480 have so much further to go when you look at 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.040 what's happening on the men's side, and and nobody wants 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.560 the w n b A where thinks they should be 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.600 comparable to the NBA. Not not yet, um, but I 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.520 think that we need to make some strides. And you 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.600 see what the soccer team is doing suing for equal pay. 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.439 I was going to ask you about that muffet about 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.480 how if there's kind of, gosh, a ripple effect with 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.120 what you see going on in women's soccer, and if 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.200 that's reaching other women's sports and kind of you know, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.959 a rising tide lifting all boats idea. Yeah, that's that's 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:01.880 what we're hoping. And I think there's a couple of 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.480 other sports. I think there's a women's ice hockey is 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.760 trying to do the same thing. I think women's tennis 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.880 has probably done the best job. Women's golf is still 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.280 struggling with that. Um, I think all women's sports, and 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.240 I think just we we just have to change the 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.560 attitude of how we're looked at. I was gonna say 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.680 media attention is one thing, and obviously, you know they're 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:26.920 kind of inextricably linked attitudes and and impressions and media exposure. 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.840 But but how much of it is just, you know, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.200 gender stereotypes that started when we were you and I 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.760 were young, and that still exists in so much of 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:42.000 the population today. I think most of it still comes 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.120 from that, just from the way you're raised. I think 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.680 when you look at the way people raise their sons 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.200 and their daughters, and you look at the differences and 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:53.240 how they talk to them, what they compliment them for. Um, 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.559 I think we're so busy telling our daughters how pretty 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.360 they are, and we never tell them how smart they are. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.000 Trying to say that all the time to my daughters. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.800 I have two girls and you know, I really stop myself, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.959 even if I think they look prettier, I like their 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.400 dress or their outfit or whatever. When they were growing 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.640 up there now twenty eight and twenty four, but I 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.520 always say, you know, you're so smarter, you tried so hard. 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.120 Now they're saying that girls and boys should be should 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:23.320 be complimented for their grit and their effort. Um that 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.040 that that really is is much more helpful, obviously than 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.760 even saying you're smart. It's saying, wow, you really tried hard, 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.920 you really worked hard, and that's that's great. I think 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:39.040 that's so important because so often you see parents, especially 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.040 at sporting events. You know, they want their their child 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:43.840 to be the best. They want them to shoot more, 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.080 they want them to do more, they want them to 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.880 play more. If if they don't, it's the coach's fault. Um, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.800 So I don't think they have the right perspective instead 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.240 of looking at it and saying, well, you know, look 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.040 at I love the way your teammates react to you 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.520 when when you say something, everybody's listening. I think you're 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.360 a really good leader. I think you're a great teammate. 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:01.840 You effort today was terrific. I saw you dive in 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.760 for loose balls. I saw you hustling really hard, and 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.720 everybody really appreciated that effort and things that you really 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.800 can look at and say, this is important, and then 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.560 they start to know that it's it's not about how 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.000 many points you scored. Um, it's really about the way 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.160 you play the game. Hi, this is Melissa leack Lightner, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.760 a class of two thousand and ten. I played point 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.120 guard for coach Murraw, which everybody knows is her favorite 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.640 position on the floor. Melissa leack Lightner is the regional 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.760 director of Notre Dame Athletics Advancement, a department that focuses 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.600 on outreach and fundraising. Coach probably doesn't even realize the 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.920 ways that she impacts her players lives. Obviously, she challenged 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.760 us mentally and physically day in and day out, but 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.280 she always made you feel and believe that you are 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.560 so much more than basketball. She has helped me grow 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.240 into the woman that I am personally and professionally. She 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.600 really just empowers you to be your authentic self. And 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.880 she's always a phone call away, meeting a lunch. You know, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.400 if you need advice or support, I would not be 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.560 who I am or where I am today without coach 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:13.000 and Notre Dame, I also probably wouldn't be as paranoid 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.320 about showing up on time and so afraid of being 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.880 late without her when we come back, Muffett explains why 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.560 the law that was supposed to change everything still hasn't 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:41.120 fixed the massive gender gap in sports leadership. Muffatt McCraw 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.240 was named head coach of Notre Dame's women's basketball back 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:49.600 in fifteen years after Title nine was enacted, and while 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.200 the number of female athletes at the college level has 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.320 skyrocketed since then, the equal resources part of the law 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:00.480 isn't necessarily being addressed. Title nine was the best thing 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.560 for women ever. I mean, we went from about two 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.639 hundred thousand girls playing sports to two million. Um. It 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.960 was just a great thing for women, giving the opportunities 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.800 and seeing how much they wanted those opportunities. But it 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:16.159 really didn't take effect. I think for years and years. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.040 I'm still wondering if if it's taken effect even now. 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.720 And why do you think that's the case. You know, 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.080 I think that there's a couple of there was three 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.320 prongs to Title nine that you had to come up 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.520 with as a university, and and I think they were 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.600 pretty easy to say, yes, we've given them opportunities. Um, 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.960 you know, whatever they're looking for, we've satisfied this. But 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:39.520 what is the emotional part? You know, it was the support, 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.400 financial support that we didn't have. You know, the men 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.840 or flying places were taken a bus. There's you know, 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.800 eating at nice places were at McDonald's and so there 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:51.600 was just a lot of things. I think that emotional 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.320 support as a whole laundry list of things that you 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.280 want to look at and say it's equal, but you know, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.320 it really isn't the attention that we're getting. You know, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:17:59.960 when are we playing our games as opposed to one 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.520 they're playing their games. Um, there's just so many things 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.480 you have to look at. So de facto discrimination kind 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.800 of lived on. Yeah, I think most schools willingly added 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.840 sports and did whatever they could, but it was financially 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.440 it was difficult, and I think a lot of people thought, 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:16.960 if you're gonna add women sports, you're gonna have to 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.920 cut men's sports. And that was not exactly what happened. 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.280 That was not ever intended to happen, and I think 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.399 people use that as an excuse. So instead of just 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.919 adding and we need more money, We're gonna have to 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.480 make more money to be able to support these sports 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.520 instead of cutting men's sports. So it was a great 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.720 idea in theory, but in practice it really did take 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.240 a many many years to go into effect, and some 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.639 might argue it still hasn't fully leveled the playing field, 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.960 so to speak. No, it really hasn't. I think it 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:48.800 has come a long way, though, And I think that 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:53.240 when we started out, you know, coaches, maybe more were women. 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.679 So everybody coaching a women's team was a woman who 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.879 had been a pioneer and started out playing back before 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.480 Title nine. And I think a lot of women thought, well, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.560 when we have a good program, when I'm winning enough, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.800 when I'm in a position where i can talk more, 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.560 And I would look at that and say, if I'm 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.440 not fighting for my team, what are they going to think? 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.080 How am I representing them? How am I teaching them anything? 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:16.800 So we started to fight a little bit more for 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.919 just facilities and travel and assistant coaches salaries and so 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.280 many different things. And I think that women have to 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.920 fight for themselves because unfortunately, not many people are fighting 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.000 for us. It was very depressing preparing for this interview. 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.720 I learned that two years after Title nine became law, 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.359 of women's teams and college sports had female coaches, but 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.280 today that number is just under forty two percent. What 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.760 the heck is going on? Well, what happened was eventually 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.040 the salaries grew and I think we got to a 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.960 point and this wasn't until probably late in the nineties 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.800 that coaching women's basketball actually became something that was worthwhile 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.000 as a in terms of financially, and so you saw 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.600 a lot of men coming over into our game. They 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:03.479 either couldn't get a job on the men's side, they 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.720 was it was too much dues paying, they had to 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:08.720 wait too long to have that opportunity. But if they 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:10.440 went on the women's side, they could walk in and 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.440 be a head coach a lot sooner than they could 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.760 on the men's side. And so a lot of the 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.440 jobs turned into obviously men men coaching on the women's side, 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:21.960 and so they had so many more opportunities than women 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.439 because they could coach on on either side. And the 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.360 problem also was the athletic directors, mostly white men, are 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.320 going to hire people who look like them, and I 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.760 think men have a very different way of networking of 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.720 applying for jobs, of promoting themselves that women just don't do. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.520 And I think that it was easy. And they go 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:40.919 and talk to the men's coach and say, what do 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:42.360 you think about this guy? Do you think he could 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.239 take over the women's team, And and that's pretty much 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.480 how it got started. You know, if I hear another 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.439 story about a man failing up, I'm gonna like slip 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.600 my wrist. I mean, every day I hear about somebody 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.240 with some job and I'm like, what, wait a second, 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.600 I thought they really screwed up. And then for women, 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.080 you have the glass cliff. You know, once they get 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.000