Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and welcome to Next Question
Speaker 1: on today's episode. I knew from the first time I
Speaker 1: picked up the ball this was something I wanted to
Speaker 1: do the rest of my life. Just in time for
Speaker 1: March Madness, I sit down with Muffett McGraw, head coach
Speaker 1: of the Notre Dame women's basketball team. Muffett is one
Speaker 1: of the winningess coaches in the history of the sport,
Speaker 1: one of just five coaches in men or women's Division
Speaker 1: one basketball with more than nine hundred and twenty career wins.
Speaker 1: She's led the Fighting Irish to the Final four an
Speaker 1: impressive nine times and has taken home the national championship
Speaker 1: titled twice, most recently and memorably in two thousand eighteen,
Speaker 1: when Notre Dame one with a heart thumping buzzer beater
Speaker 1: hon Jennifer j Seventeen years to the day, the Notre
Speaker 1: Dame party as Hall of Famer. Muffett McGraw is now
Speaker 1: in her thirty third season at Notre Dame, but she's
Speaker 1: always been an outspoken advocate for women in sports. In fact,
Speaker 1: during the n C Double A Final four last year,
Speaker 1: her impassioned press conference about the need for more women
Speaker 1: leaders went viral. We don't have enough female role models,
Speaker 1: we don't have enough visible women leaders, We don't have
Speaker 1: enough women in power. Girls are socialized to know when
Speaker 1: they come out, generals are already set. Men run the world.
Speaker 1: Men have the power, Men make the decisions. But wouldn't
Speaker 1: it be great if we could teach them to watch
Speaker 1: how women lead. When you look at men's basketball and
Speaker 1: the jobs go to men, why shouldn't one of the
Speaker 1: jobs and women's basketball go to women? Right now? Few
Speaker 1: women sit at the top of the college athletics food chain.
Speaker 1: If you look at one of the most powerful jobs
Speaker 1: at athletic director, only ten percent of them nationwide are
Speaker 1: women today, though you'll meet one of them. Growing up
Speaker 1: in the industry, there were that many um female role
Speaker 1: models in key decision making positions in athletics. Carla Williams
Speaker 1: made history in two thousand seventeen when she became the
Speaker 1: University of Virginia's athletic director, the first African American woman
Speaker 1: to lead athletics at one of the Power five Conference schools,
Speaker 1: the highest most competitive level of college sports. As ironic
Speaker 1: as it is, most of my mentors athletic director mentors
Speaker 1: are men. Later, Carla tells us what it's been like
Speaker 1: being a pioneer in this male dominated field. But first,
Speaker 1: Muffatt McCraw on what's behind the lack of diversity in
Speaker 1: college sports and how she forged her own path. So
Speaker 1: my next question in college sports, when are women like
Speaker 1: Carla Williams and Muffett McGraw going to be the rule
Speaker 1: not the exception. If there's any indication of how good
Speaker 1: a leader Muffett McGraw really is, just look to what
Speaker 1: her players go on to accomplish. A Women's Basketball Hall
Speaker 1: of Famer, two Olympians, twenty two All Americans, and twenty
Speaker 1: two current or former w NBA players, not to mention
Speaker 1: a number of coaches at the professional and college level.
Speaker 1: This is Beth Cunningham. I played for coach mraw, graduated
Speaker 1: in nine and I'm also in my eighth year coaching
Speaker 1: alongside her at the University of Notre Dame. Beth Cunningham
Speaker 1: is Notre Dame's associate head coach. She's one of a
Speaker 1: few former players we asked to talk about how Muffett
Speaker 1: shaped their lives on and off the court. She has
Speaker 1: taught me how to be a confident leader and how
Speaker 1: to lead. She's taught me the importance of doing things
Speaker 1: the right way, not necessarily the easiest way, but the
Speaker 1: right way. Mamma has taught me how as a woman
Speaker 1: to go after what I want from life, so to
Speaker 1: speak up for myself and other women at all opportunities.
Speaker 1: That's Sarah leive Shirt, another former Muffett McGraw player and
Speaker 1: one of the Originals Class of Sarah is now the
Speaker 1: director of Athletics Advancement at Notre Dame. She taught me
Speaker 1: how to be resilient in the face of adversity, how
Speaker 1: to work harder than my mind and body thought capable,
Speaker 1: and ultimately that to strive to be as good as
Speaker 1: a man is to underachieved. Over the course of her
Speaker 1: forty plus year career, Muffett has had the chance to
Speaker 1: influence a lot of young women, but she says she
Speaker 1: never really set out to become a role model. I
Speaker 1: don't think I went into it thinking I'm going to
Speaker 1: be able to mold these young women, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to be able to teach these women something about um
Speaker 1: how they can step up and use their voice. You know.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was anything like that it was
Speaker 1: all about just the game, and that love of the
Speaker 1: game goes way back to her days as a little
Speaker 1: girl playing on the neighborhood courts in a Philadelphia suburb.
Speaker 1: Growing up in that time, no social media, there was,
Speaker 1: you know, really you left the house, your mom didn't
Speaker 1: know exactly where you were, and it was always I
Speaker 1: was down at the playground, Me and nine guys down
Speaker 1: at the playground. And you know, sports was always sort
Speaker 1: of a meritocracy. If you can earn it, if you
Speaker 1: have the ability, you're gonna get in the game. So
Speaker 1: I was fortunate that I was able to get in
Speaker 1: the game and nobody ever look twice at me. Muffett
Speaker 1: started playing basketball well before Title nine was passed in
Speaker 1: ninety two. That law, you might recall, was part of
Speaker 1: a sweeping set of education amendments that made it illegal
Speaker 1: for any institution receiving federal funding to discriminate on the
Speaker 1: basis of sex. That met Schools at every level, from
Speaker 1: elementary to college were expected to provide equal opportunities to
Speaker 1: their male and female students, both in the classroom and
Speaker 1: in the gym. And it was lucky for Muffett back then,
Speaker 1: her Catholic high school was surprisingly progressive. Hard to believe,
Speaker 1: as this is the Catholic Church. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia
Speaker 1: was way ahead of Title nine. So girls were playing
Speaker 1: basketball in the leads and I know in the sixties.
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure if it was before that, but
Speaker 1: way before Title nine came out in the early seventies,
Speaker 1: they had teams for girls. But the program did have
Speaker 1: its limitations. When I was playing in the early seventies,
Speaker 1: we were playing six on six at that time, which
Speaker 1: was horrible and not even a real game of basketball.
Speaker 1: It started out three on three at each end, then
Speaker 1: it graduated two two at each end, with rovers going
Speaker 1: back and forth, and then finally in high school we
Speaker 1: got back to five on five, but we still had
Speaker 1: to do it while wearing a skirt. Oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 1: That must have been kind of awkward at times. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, let's not forget our femininity as uh, you know,
Speaker 1: childbirth is a pain free experience, but running up and
Speaker 1: down a basketball court, boy, that's that's something we're not
Speaker 1: ready for. That's so funny. Well, it's nice to get
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church a little bit of credit for being progressive,
Speaker 1: at least in that arena, right, Yeah, for women, that's
Speaker 1: very unusual for them. Yeah. So meanwhile, you played basketball
Speaker 1: at St. Joseph's University and women's varsity basketball was pretty
Speaker 1: much brand new there. What was it like back then
Speaker 1: to play at the college level or did you feel
Speaker 1: like you were, you know, very well prepared for that
Speaker 1: given your high school experience. Well, it was the first
Speaker 1: year it was a sport at St. Joe's, first year
Speaker 1: returned varsity, so I was thrilled just to be a
Speaker 1: part of it. There were no athletic scholarships. You paid
Speaker 1: your own way, We did our own laundry, We we
Speaker 1: drove ourselves to games. That was completely unlike what's going
Speaker 1: on now and and completely different from what the men
Speaker 1: were going through. We used to sit on the sidelines
Speaker 1: and wait for them to finish practice, and they would
Speaker 1: practice for as long as they wanted, whenever they wanted,
Speaker 1: and we would just wait patiently, waiting on the side
Speaker 1: until they finished. And it sounds like the Muffett sounds
Speaker 1: like the guys were real jerks. They could be. I mean,
Speaker 1: they thought very highly of themselves in their programs and
Speaker 1: not very highly of you all, and kind of I
Speaker 1: think you know, sort of dismissed your desire to play. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think they absolutely did that. And you know, socially,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that accepted at that time for women to
Speaker 1: be playing sports. So we had to fight against a
Speaker 1: lot of stereotypes and we didn't have a lot of advantages.
Speaker 1: But we just we played for love of the game,
Speaker 1: and that's that's all we cared about, was that we
Speaker 1: love what we're doing. But how did you start to
Speaker 1: kind of develop your leadership skills? You know? I think
Speaker 1: it started way back when I was playing at the
Speaker 1: playground down there with the nine guys. I think that
Speaker 1: some of the things that you learn. There's so many
Speaker 1: great lessons that sports teaches you about work ethic and
Speaker 1: sacrifice and being a team player and and understanding your role.
Speaker 1: A little self awareness is always good. But the thing
Speaker 1: I learned from playing down at the playground, there's no supervision,
Speaker 1: there's no referees, So you learned conflict resolution. You learn
Speaker 1: that you have to stand up for yourself. Um know,
Speaker 1: the ball was in or out? Who hit it out?
Speaker 1: Did I get fouled? And you start to learn how
Speaker 1: people look at each other and if you're the kind
Speaker 1: of guy that is calling a foul every time you
Speaker 1: miss a shot. You find out that people don't want
Speaker 1: you on their team anymore. They're not going to enjoy
Speaker 1: playing with you. So I think you kind of learn
Speaker 1: a lot about personalities, how you can talk to some
Speaker 1: people a little differently than others. But I think the
Speaker 1: thing that fascinates me about leadership is how different so
Speaker 1: many leaders are and they can all be successful. There's introverts,
Speaker 1: there's extroverts. Uh, there's people that listen a little bit more,
Speaker 1: there's people that talk a little bit more. But I
Speaker 1: think the biggest thing is leading by example. Is is
Speaker 1: something that I always tell my team that's expected, that
Speaker 1: that's that's something that you have to do. That's not leadership.
Speaker 1: Leadership is not being afraid to use your voice, and
Speaker 1: especially as a woman um starting out with not a
Speaker 1: lot of people supporting us, you had to be able
Speaker 1: to go out and really understand that this is what
Speaker 1: I want, this is what I'm gonna say, and you
Speaker 1: can't think that much about what other people are going
Speaker 1: to say about it. What made you decide to give
Speaker 1: coaching a try? Well, I graduated from St. Joe's. I
Speaker 1: was a sociology criminal justice major, and I just really
Speaker 1: wanted to save the world, and I had no idea
Speaker 1: what that meant sociology. Not a lot of jobs really
Speaker 1: out there in the local high school. Job opened, and
Speaker 1: so I thought, yeah, I'll give it a try. I
Speaker 1: wanted to stay in basketball, but there was wasn't the
Speaker 1: opportunity to play professionally, so I took the job at
Speaker 1: Archbishop Carol. In my first practice, I was just completely
Speaker 1: consumed and knew this, this is definitely a passion that
Speaker 1: I'm going to pursue. You know. It was all about
Speaker 1: offense and defense, and I just I love puzzles. I
Speaker 1: loved just kind of doodling on napkins and watching games.
Speaker 1: And of course we don't have any female role models
Speaker 1: back then, so I'd watch the NBA, I look at
Speaker 1: things that they were doing and try to bring that
Speaker 1: back to the women's side. I know that you had
Speaker 1: a short lived stint at the Women's Professional Basketball Association,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious what that was like for you, because
Speaker 1: that was a precursor to the w n b A.
Speaker 1: That was exciting for me. It was nineteen eighty I
Speaker 1: played in California and mar team with the California Dreams.
Speaker 1: So my husband got to wear a shirt that said
Speaker 1: my wife is a dream and we would, uh, we
Speaker 1: would go to the arena and we could count the
Speaker 1: number of people there during the national anthem and probably
Speaker 1: named most of them. Um. So it didn't get quite
Speaker 1: the attention. The league eventually folded because of financial problems.
Speaker 1: My contract was for eleven thousand dollars and I thought
Speaker 1: it was the greatest thing ever, And you know, I
Speaker 1: knew it was going to be a difficult thing to start.
Speaker 1: But we've gone a long way obviously since then. I mean,
Speaker 1: things have grown tremendously and I think they're getting better
Speaker 1: now with Kathy Engelbert in charge of the w n
Speaker 1: b A, but we still have such a long way
Speaker 1: to go. What were some of the challenges back then
Speaker 1: to kind of get women's professional basketball to a place
Speaker 1: where people were supportive. I think the first thing was
Speaker 1: just having some media attention and right now and I
Speaker 1: think even today, I think we get about four percent
Speaker 1: of media attention across all of um, you know, through
Speaker 1: ESPN or newspapers or whatever kind of if there's news
Speaker 1: out there anymore, we we just don't get any attention
Speaker 1: people didn't even know we had a league, and I
Speaker 1: think there's still some people that are unsure about the
Speaker 1: w n b A. So I think we need to
Speaker 1: have a little more better marketing advertising. It's a great product.
Speaker 1: I think people have to come out and see it
Speaker 1: and they'll get hooked on it. It's happening in college.
Speaker 1: I think attendance has grown over the years. I think
Speaker 1: people are getting more excited about it. We're getting a
Speaker 1: little more exposure. I think we're on TV quite a bit,
Speaker 1: and I think that's really helping us. But we just
Speaker 1: have so much further to go when you look at
Speaker 1: what's happening on the men's side, and and nobody wants
Speaker 1: the w n b A where thinks they should be
Speaker 1: comparable to the NBA. Not not yet, um, but I
Speaker 1: think that we need to make some strides. And you
Speaker 1: see what the soccer team is doing suing for equal pay.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that muffet about
Speaker 1: how if there's kind of, gosh, a ripple effect with
Speaker 1: what you see going on in women's soccer, and if
Speaker 1: that's reaching other women's sports and kind of you know,
Speaker 1: a rising tide lifting all boats idea. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: what we're hoping. And I think there's a couple of
Speaker 1: other sports. I think there's a women's ice hockey is
Speaker 1: trying to do the same thing. I think women's tennis
Speaker 1: has probably done the best job. Women's golf is still
Speaker 1: struggling with that. Um, I think all women's sports, and
Speaker 1: I think just we we just have to change the
Speaker 1: attitude of how we're looked at. I was gonna say
Speaker 1: media attention is one thing, and obviously, you know they're
Speaker 1: kind of inextricably linked attitudes and and impressions and media exposure.
Speaker 1: But but how much of it is just, you know,
Speaker 1: gender stereotypes that started when we were you and I
Speaker 1: were young, and that still exists in so much of
Speaker 1: the population today. I think most of it still comes
Speaker 1: from that, just from the way you're raised. I think
Speaker 1: when you look at the way people raise their sons
Speaker 1: and their daughters, and you look at the differences and
Speaker 1: how they talk to them, what they compliment them for. Um,
Speaker 1: I think we're so busy telling our daughters how pretty
Speaker 1: they are, and we never tell them how smart they are.
Speaker 1: Trying to say that all the time to my daughters.
Speaker 1: I have two girls and you know, I really stop myself,
Speaker 1: even if I think they look prettier, I like their
Speaker 1: dress or their outfit or whatever. When they were growing
Speaker 1: up there now twenty eight and twenty four, but I
Speaker 1: always say, you know, you're so smarter, you tried so hard.
Speaker 1: Now they're saying that girls and boys should be should
Speaker 1: be complimented for their grit and their effort. Um that
Speaker 1: that that really is is much more helpful, obviously than
Speaker 1: even saying you're smart. It's saying, wow, you really tried hard,
Speaker 1: you really worked hard, and that's that's great. I think
Speaker 1: that's so important because so often you see parents, especially
Speaker 1: at sporting events. You know, they want their their child
Speaker 1: to be the best. They want them to shoot more,
Speaker 1: they want them to do more, they want them to
Speaker 1: play more. If if they don't, it's the coach's fault. Um,
Speaker 1: So I don't think they have the right perspective instead
Speaker 1: of looking at it and saying, well, you know, look
Speaker 1: at I love the way your teammates react to you
Speaker 1: when when you say something, everybody's listening. I think you're
Speaker 1: a really good leader. I think you're a great teammate.
Speaker 1: You effort today was terrific. I saw you dive in
Speaker 1: for loose balls. I saw you hustling really hard, and
Speaker 1: everybody really appreciated that effort and things that you really
Speaker 1: can look at and say, this is important, and then
Speaker 1: they start to know that it's it's not about how
Speaker 1: many points you scored. Um, it's really about the way
Speaker 1: you play the game. Hi, this is Melissa leack Lightner,
Speaker 1: a class of two thousand and ten. I played point
Speaker 1: guard for coach Murraw, which everybody knows is her favorite
Speaker 1: position on the floor. Melissa leack Lightner is the regional
Speaker 1: director of Notre Dame Athletics Advancement, a department that focuses
Speaker 1: on outreach and fundraising. Coach probably doesn't even realize the
Speaker 1: ways that she impacts her players lives. Obviously, she challenged
Speaker 1: us mentally and physically day in and day out, but
Speaker 1: she always made you feel and believe that you are
Speaker 1: so much more than basketball. She has helped me grow
Speaker 1: into the woman that I am personally and professionally. She
Speaker 1: really just empowers you to be your authentic self. And
Speaker 1: she's always a phone call away, meeting a lunch. You know,
Speaker 1: if you need advice or support, I would not be
Speaker 1: who I am or where I am today without coach
Speaker 1: and Notre Dame, I also probably wouldn't be as paranoid
Speaker 1: about showing up on time and so afraid of being
Speaker 1: late without her when we come back, Muffett explains why
Speaker 1: the law that was supposed to change everything still hasn't
Speaker 1: fixed the massive gender gap in sports leadership. Muffatt McCraw
Speaker 1: was named head coach of Notre Dame's women's basketball back
Speaker 1: in fifteen years after Title nine was enacted, and while
Speaker 1: the number of female athletes at the college level has
Speaker 1: skyrocketed since then, the equal resources part of the law
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily being addressed. Title nine was the best thing
Speaker 1: for women ever. I mean, we went from about two
Speaker 1: hundred thousand girls playing sports to two million. Um. It
Speaker 1: was just a great thing for women, giving the opportunities
Speaker 1: and seeing how much they wanted those opportunities. But it
Speaker 1: really didn't take effect. I think for years and years.
Speaker 1: I'm still wondering if if it's taken effect even now.
Speaker 1: And why do you think that's the case. You know,
Speaker 1: I think that there's a couple of there was three
Speaker 1: prongs to Title nine that you had to come up
Speaker 1: with as a university, and and I think they were
Speaker 1: pretty easy to say, yes, we've given them opportunities. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever they're looking for, we've satisfied this. But
Speaker 1: what is the emotional part? You know, it was the support,
Speaker 1: financial support that we didn't have. You know, the men
Speaker 1: or flying places were taken a bus. There's you know,
Speaker 1: eating at nice places were at McDonald's and so there
Speaker 1: was just a lot of things. I think that emotional
Speaker 1: support as a whole laundry list of things that you
Speaker 1: want to look at and say it's equal, but you know,
Speaker 1: it really isn't the attention that we're getting. You know,
Speaker 1: when are we playing our games as opposed to one
Speaker 1: they're playing their games. Um, there's just so many things
Speaker 1: you have to look at. So de facto discrimination kind
Speaker 1: of lived on. Yeah, I think most schools willingly added
Speaker 1: sports and did whatever they could, but it was financially
Speaker 1: it was difficult, and I think a lot of people thought,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna add women sports, you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: cut men's sports. And that was not exactly what happened.
Speaker 1: That was not ever intended to happen, and I think
Speaker 1: people use that as an excuse. So instead of just
Speaker 1: adding and we need more money, We're gonna have to
Speaker 1: make more money to be able to support these sports
Speaker 1: instead of cutting men's sports. So it was a great
Speaker 1: idea in theory, but in practice it really did take
Speaker 1: a many many years to go into effect, and some
Speaker 1: might argue it still hasn't fully leveled the playing field,
Speaker 1: so to speak. No, it really hasn't. I think it
Speaker 1: has come a long way, though, And I think that
Speaker 1: when we started out, you know, coaches, maybe more were women.
Speaker 1: So everybody coaching a women's team was a woman who
Speaker 1: had been a pioneer and started out playing back before
Speaker 1: Title nine. And I think a lot of women thought, well,
Speaker 1: when we have a good program, when I'm winning enough,
Speaker 1: when I'm in a position where i can talk more,
Speaker 1: And I would look at that and say, if I'm
Speaker 1: not fighting for my team, what are they going to think?
Speaker 1: How am I representing them? How am I teaching them anything?
Speaker 1: So we started to fight a little bit more for
Speaker 1: just facilities and travel and assistant coaches salaries and so
Speaker 1: many different things. And I think that women have to
Speaker 1: fight for themselves because unfortunately, not many people are fighting
Speaker 1: for us. It was very depressing preparing for this interview.
Speaker 1: I learned that two years after Title nine became law,
Speaker 1: of women's teams and college sports had female coaches, but
Speaker 1: today that number is just under forty two percent. What
Speaker 1: the heck is going on? Well, what happened was eventually
Speaker 1: the salaries grew and I think we got to a
Speaker 1: point and this wasn't until probably late in the nineties
Speaker 1: that coaching women's basketball actually became something that was worthwhile
Speaker 1: as a in terms of financially, and so you saw
Speaker 1: a lot of men coming over into our game. They
Speaker 1: either couldn't get a job on the men's side, they
Speaker 1: was it was too much dues paying, they had to
Speaker 1: wait too long to have that opportunity. But if they
Speaker 1: went on the women's side, they could walk in and
Speaker 1: be a head coach a lot sooner than they could
Speaker 1: on the men's side. And so a lot of the
Speaker 1: jobs turned into obviously men men coaching on the women's side,
Speaker 1: and so they had so many more opportunities than women
Speaker 1: because they could coach on on either side. And the
Speaker 1: problem also was the athletic directors, mostly white men, are
Speaker 1: going to hire people who look like them, and I
Speaker 1: think men have a very different way of networking of
Speaker 1: applying for jobs, of promoting themselves that women just don't do.
Speaker 1: And I think that it was easy. And they go
Speaker 1: and talk to the men's coach and say, what do
Speaker 1: you think about this guy? Do you think he could
Speaker 1: take over the women's team, And and that's pretty much
Speaker 1: how it got started. You know, if I hear another
Speaker 1: story about a man failing up, I'm gonna like slip
Speaker 1: my wrist. I mean, every day I hear about somebody
Speaker 1: with some job and I'm like, what, wait a second,
Speaker 1: I thought they really screwed up. And then for women,
Speaker 1: you have the glass cliff. You know, once they get
Speaker 1: into a leadership position, if you know it, it doesn't
Speaker 1: go perfectly. You know, Sayanara exactly. And that's we see
Speaker 1: it on in sports or not. You see recycled coaches.
Speaker 1: They get fired from one job, they move on to another.
Speaker 1: But when it happens to a woman, it's very, very
Speaker 1: difficult for them to come back and to get another job.
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the big problems is
Speaker 1: a lot of athletic directors and people in general look
Speaker 1: and say, well, we tried a woman, it didn't work,
Speaker 1: so now we're going back to hiring a guy. As
Speaker 1: if that one woman represented our entire gender, and they
Speaker 1: couldn't say it just didn't work out with that particular woman,
Speaker 1: which is what they say when a guy fails. It's
Speaker 1: interesting because I know the NFL had the Rooney Rule
Speaker 1: and when it came to looking at coaches for every
Speaker 1: white man they had to look at a person of
Speaker 1: color for coaching or management jobs. But I don't know
Speaker 1: how well that's worked, do you It's not it's not working.
Speaker 1: I just read an article recently too, what what happened?
Speaker 1: What's wrong? I think approach. I think they're interviewing, but
Speaker 1: they're not hiring, and I think that they're kind of
Speaker 1: moving the the idea of this is what you need
Speaker 1: to do this. You have to be an offensive coordinator,
Speaker 1: you have to call the plays, you have to do
Speaker 1: this with that, and so then then uh men are
Speaker 1: promoted to that job and then they say, now you
Speaker 1: know what, Now we're gonna say this is what you need.
Speaker 1: So they're constantly kind of moving the line um and
Speaker 1: it's unfortunate. And it happens in college sports as well.
Speaker 1: I think the diversity at the college level in women's
Speaker 1: basketball is not nearly what it should be. When you
Speaker 1: look at the tremendous amount of great athletes that we
Speaker 1: have in our programs. I don't think the coaching staffs
Speaker 1: represent those players. There is truly so much to Muffett,
Speaker 1: and having known her for thirty three years as a
Speaker 1: member of her first class notre name, I'm just one
Speaker 1: of the hundreds of people she's touched and impacted profoundly.
Speaker 1: Karen Keys has had an impressive career in sports, a
Speaker 1: year of professional play, coaching at the D one level,
Speaker 1: broadcast reporter, and now the coach of her former high
Speaker 1: school back basketball team in New Jersey. I would describe
Speaker 1: her as authentic, genuine, candid, straightforward, even blunt. But some
Speaker 1: of that directness is the reason why she's such an
Speaker 1: effective communicator as a coach. Whenever a Muffett told you
Speaker 1: something that you might not want to hear, deep in
Speaker 1: your heart, you knew it was what you needed the year,
Speaker 1: and it might not all be comfortable and nice, but
Speaker 1: in the long run, she always had your best interest
Speaker 1: in mind as a player and person. When we come back,
Speaker 1: I'll talk with a game changing athletic director who has
Speaker 1: more than a few ideas about how to level the
Speaker 1: playing field. It's often said if you can't see it,
Speaker 1: you can't be it, and for a lot of young
Speaker 1: female athletes, they're still not seeing themselves at the top.
Speaker 1: Carla Williams is helping to break that mold. As I mentioned,
Speaker 1: she's the athletic director at u v A, my alma mater,
Speaker 1: wa Hua. Carlos says that plane sports gave her the
Speaker 1: tools to get this far. I do believe that sports
Speaker 1: is a great equalizer. I do believe that sports brings
Speaker 1: people together, whether it's teammates or fans, um cheering for
Speaker 1: their team, coming from all different walks of life and
Speaker 1: being able to participate in sports has opened so many
Speaker 1: doors for so many young people that may not have
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to go to college. I'm one of them,
Speaker 1: and so sports participation needs to be something that is
Speaker 1: available to any kid that wants to play. And I
Speaker 1: just think that's very basically fundamental because that opens the
Speaker 1: door to all of those other benefits, so teamwork, hard work,
Speaker 1: time management, um, learning how to play with others, perseverance.
Speaker 1: Carlo has been a involved in every aspect of Division
Speaker 1: one sports. She played, she coached, and then she became
Speaker 1: an administrator, which is where she believes she can have
Speaker 1: the most impact. In fact, today she's one of only
Speaker 1: four female athletic directors at Power five institutions. There were
Speaker 1: five of us when I became a D at Virginia,
Speaker 1: and now there are four, and and so I don't
Speaker 1: it's hard to to really have a good sense of
Speaker 1: how that's going to change in a year, two years,
Speaker 1: three years, or five ten years. It's just really hard
Speaker 1: to gauge it. Of course, with great power comes great
Speaker 1: responsibility and the pressure not to fail. Carla does what
Speaker 1: she can for others, but also argues that the burden
Speaker 1: to change the system should not rest solely on women
Speaker 1: and people of color. I take seriously the opportunity to
Speaker 1: mentor I do try to have fall conversations, emails and
Speaker 1: meet with people who want to learn more and grow
Speaker 1: in the profession. But at the same time I have
Speaker 1: to do my job because I do realize that a
Speaker 1: lot of people are, you know, excited and happy that
Speaker 1: this opportunity uh existed for me, and so I do
Speaker 1: understand what it means to a lot of people that
Speaker 1: that aspire to this. I also understand that it could
Speaker 1: be a burden also because my failure means a lot
Speaker 1: as well, and so I can't fail, um, you know.
Speaker 1: And so that puts uh, that's a that is a
Speaker 1: difficult challenge. UM. And also I don't you know, creating
Speaker 1: a diverse workforce is not always the responsibility of the
Speaker 1: for the people of color, you know. And so I
Speaker 1: try to do my best. But if I allow myself
Speaker 1: to be the person responsible for making sure that African
Speaker 1: American women can become athletic directors, then I won't be
Speaker 1: an athletic director for very long. And so I really
Speaker 1: think it should be a shared responsibility for me. I
Speaker 1: had some great UM role models who were athletic directors,
Speaker 1: and they were willing to include me in meetings, UM,
Speaker 1: in decision making conversations that were you know, critical decision
Speaker 1: making conversations, key decision making conversations. That is one way
Speaker 1: to really help women gain more experience and be in
Speaker 1: the room so that we can be a part of
Speaker 1: that discussion. I think athletic directors who are willing to
Speaker 1: be inclusive in a substantive way, UM. And that's really
Speaker 1: the only way to do it, because it just cannot
Speaker 1: be a superficial, check the box kind of position. It
Speaker 1: really needs to be you know, engaged in real discussions,
Speaker 1: and then of course presidents and chancellers that aren't afraid
Speaker 1: to only look at the qualifications when hiring for athletic
Speaker 1: director positions. I think sometimes you know it's it's you're comfortable,
Speaker 1: you know, hiring people that you're comfortable with, and so
Speaker 1: that oftentimes excludes women for sure from those opportunities. Carlos is,
Speaker 1: diversity is key at all levels of college athletics. It's
Speaker 1: better for players, it's better for universities, and it's better
Speaker 1: for the game. Having a diverse set of opinions and
Speaker 1: experiences and thoughts to help make the right decision is
Speaker 1: really really important. And it's it's almost like you can't
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have a star warting five that are all centers,
Speaker 1: because you know that may not work. You don't have
Speaker 1: your ball handler, you don't have your perimeter shooter, you know.
Speaker 1: So their strength in um having a balanced team in sports.
Speaker 1: So that's a given in sports, and so to me,
Speaker 1: I see it the same in administration. Their strength to
Speaker 1: having balance and to having diversity because you allow yourself
Speaker 1: to hear different opinions and different experiences to make sure
Speaker 1: that we're considering that we're we're making an informed decision,
Speaker 1: and if everyone thinks like me, then I'm not so
Speaker 1: sure that we're making a completely informed decision. And so
Speaker 1: that's why I do That's why I think their strength
Speaker 1: and diversity. Matham McGraw agrees that diversity is something everyone
Speaker 1: needs to be working towards. I think every coach in
Speaker 1: the country as to look and say, how can I
Speaker 1: support women? How can I hire more women? There's so
Speaker 1: many talented women out there in the w n b
Speaker 1: A when they want to get out and start coaching,
Speaker 1: where is their opportunity. It's very difficult for them to
Speaker 1: break in and that's where we need to have more
Speaker 1: positions and the n c A is looking at that
Speaker 1: right now that we can have sort of a fellowship
Speaker 1: of being able to take a w NBA player on
Speaker 1: our staff, train them see if the coaching is something
Speaker 1: that they would want to do or be good at.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a good way to start. And
Speaker 1: how can you or how do you foster leadership skills
Speaker 1: and coaches that are coming up through the ranks as
Speaker 1: they're kind of a mentor program to get even more
Speaker 1: women in the pipeline. And we have we have some
Speaker 1: programs in our Coaches Association, but I think it's up
Speaker 1: to really the head coach looking at her players that
Speaker 1: we have to be mentors for them and what they
Speaker 1: see at practice. And I have to be a mentor
Speaker 1: for my staff. I want them to be head coaches.
Speaker 1: I've recently had an assistant coach go over to the
Speaker 1: NBA and she's with them Memphis Grizzlies. Now, ne l
Speaker 1: i v Um going to be one of the great
Speaker 1: coaches coming into UH into college if she chooses to
Speaker 1: come back here, and so I think we need more
Speaker 1: of that. I think the NBA is right ahead of
Speaker 1: the curve. They're hiring a lot of women. I think
Speaker 1: there's maybe ten or eleven women in the NBA right
Speaker 1: now that are getting great experience. Becky Hammond had to
Speaker 1: take over a game, the first woman to coach an
Speaker 1: NBA team because Papovich either got tossed or or was
Speaker 1: not available for the game. So I think we're making strategy.
Speaker 1: Saw in the Super Bowl female assistant on San Francisco.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's coming. It's just so slow, but
Speaker 1: but we are seeing some change, and I guess we
Speaker 1: have to celebrate that and do whatever we can to
Speaker 1: to feel more change in the future. I'd just like
Speaker 1: to see more women stepping up and using their voice
Speaker 1: and looking to hire and empower women. Prepared me to
Speaker 1: be a leader by challenging me. She was a great leader,
Speaker 1: but she led by example. She was so passionate, so
Speaker 1: hard working. I really looked up to her her advice.
Speaker 1: She's always taught her student athletes how to be strong
Speaker 1: women and how to use our voice. That's Neil Ivy,
Speaker 1: an assistant coach at the Memphis Grizzlies, one of only
Speaker 1: nine female coaches in the m b A. I love you,
Speaker 1: um from the bottom of my heart, and I appreciate
Speaker 1: you helping me become the woman that I am. I
Speaker 1: think that, um, I've learned the right way to live. UM.
Speaker 1: I think I've learned the right way to coach and
Speaker 1: the right way to um to just be a human being.
Speaker 1: Before we go. For anyone out there wanting to step
Speaker 1: up to become a Muffett McGraw or a Carla Williams,
Speaker 1: here's some advice from a pro. Always do more than
Speaker 1: what's expected of you. Do more, do extra, UM, And
Speaker 1: that has helped me, you know, as a student athlete,
Speaker 1: whether it's in the gym getting up more shots, are
Speaker 1: in the weight room a little bit longer, or as
Speaker 1: a coach, staying at the gym to recruit and see
Speaker 1: more players when your colleagues have already left. Um, it's
Speaker 1: just do is doing extra just doing more, going the
Speaker 1: extra mile to learn more and to do more. Um,
Speaker 1: you know is something I always give. And then at work,
Speaker 1: just work, work, work, work. You don't work twenty four
Speaker 1: hours a day, but when you are working, make sure
Speaker 1: that you are working really hard. Um and smart. That's
Speaker 1: it for this week's episode, I'd like to give us
Speaker 1: special thanks to Muffett's former Notre Dame players Beth Cunningham,
Speaker 1: Sarah Leivescher, Melissa lect Lightner, Karen Keyes and Nelle I
Speaker 1: v and go Irish even though I went to u
Speaker 1: v A. By the way, you can subscribe to Next
Speaker 1: Question and listen to all of our episodes on Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your
Speaker 1: favorite shows, and you can keep up with me on Facebook, Twitter,
Speaker 1: Instagram and all the rest. Meanwhile, if you're looking for
Speaker 1: a little guidance on what's happening in the world, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to feel totally overwhelmed. Sign up for
Speaker 1: my daily newsletter. It's called Wake Up Paul and you
Speaker 1: can get it by going to Katie Curik dot com.
Speaker 1: Until next time and my Next Question, I'm Katie Kurik.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. Next Question with Katie Couric
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media.
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Katie Couric, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang.
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is
Speaker 1: Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clemens.
Speaker 1: Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin and Lowell Berlante, Mixing
Speaker 1: by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more
Speaker 1: information on today's episode, go to Katie Couric dot com
Speaker 1: and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Kurik.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.