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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast.

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Speaker 1: We explore some of the big many issues in the

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Speaker 1: world of sports on Michael bar and this is a

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Speaker 1: big topic and we're talking about the NFL and what

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Speaker 1: they're trying to do to prevent serious injuries in the game.

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Speaker 1: And it was a great article that's out Michael Crowley

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Speaker 1: and also Jim Gaddy, who is connected with this article involved.

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Speaker 1: First of all, gentlemen, thank you for coming onto the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business of Sports. The article that you guys are

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Speaker 1: connected with, and it really is something I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start with Michael tell us about this article that's in

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week. The NFL, they are trying to study

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Speaker 1: how to avoid concussions. They've done this several years ago,

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Speaker 1: but they're really taking an extreme focus on it and

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Speaker 1: how to avoid injuries in general. To us more about

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Speaker 1: what your article is all about. Yeah, so, uh, I

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Speaker 1: was alerted through a source that, you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the things the NFL has been doing for some time

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Speaker 1: now was really focusing on lower limb injuries and that

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Speaker 1: research is actually an outgrowth of the research related to concussions.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of things we in the reporting

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Speaker 1: that should be reflected in the article as well, is that, um,

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Speaker 1: they this was a bit of a surprise to them,

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Speaker 1: you know, because the NFL uh televises every single game

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Speaker 1: they have, they have filmed, they have video on every

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Speaker 1: single injury that has occurred in the NFL, and so

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Speaker 1: they started to understand that if they could start studying

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Speaker 1: those collisions, specifically for concussions, then they started looking at

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Speaker 1: other than they realized they could look at other things.

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Speaker 1: And that's where the you know, the artificial intelligence and

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Speaker 1: machine learning starts to come into play, because now they

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Speaker 1: can start analyzing all that data, which we would call video,

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Speaker 1: and they can start analyzing you know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if they would put it this way, but say like

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Speaker 1: the angle of a collision or the way that a

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Speaker 1: foot responds to artificial term versus natural grass, which then

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Speaker 1: gets into even sort of like can they have this

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Speaker 1: this is not this is sort of common knowledge if

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Speaker 1: you're like really deep in the NFL, but you know,

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Speaker 1: if you were going to an NFL locker room, they

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Speaker 1: have ratings for every helmet that these that these guys used,

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Speaker 1: but they have they also have ratings for the types

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Speaker 1: of cleats that they sort of you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: they rate those as well. And a lot of that

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Speaker 1: is because, um, you know, a soft tissue injury like

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Speaker 1: a hamstring or an ankle or or a calf, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: it will keep you out of a game longer, you

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Speaker 1: know than current concussion protocols dode. So obviously that's very

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Speaker 1: important teams to sort of figure out how they can

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Speaker 1: sort of prevent those kinds of injuries as well as

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Speaker 1: the more long term effects of concussions. Bloomberg Pursuits Deputy

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Speaker 1: Unitor Jim Gatty, and this involves about the concussions because

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Speaker 1: a few years ago they used to put the radio

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Speaker 1: frequency identification tags inside the helmets. And do they still

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Speaker 1: do that now? Yep, yep they do. Uh, they go

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Speaker 1: on almost all the pieces of equipment that they wear now.

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Speaker 1: They go on their shoulder pads, they go in the mouthpieces. Um,

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Speaker 1: they you know, even when you were thinking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: measuring concussions and looking at how these happened, the mouthpiece

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Speaker 1: sensor is quite important that it tells what direction inside

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Speaker 1: the helmet the head is moving. Um. It's just you

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Speaker 1: know the sort of thing that like every single player,

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Speaker 1: every single game, every single practice, they wear all these sensors.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when Mike came to me with the story,

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Speaker 1: you think about analytics, analytics and other sports tends to

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Speaker 1: have a really kind of a negative connotation. And you're

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Speaker 1: talking about baseball purists either analytics people. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: all moneyball. Now where you think about the NBA, where

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Speaker 1: everyone seems to be like shooting from half court now

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Speaker 1: trying to get three points instead of two points, in

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Speaker 1: the NFL, it's just it's a completely different way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: some of these changes to the game are happening in

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Speaker 1: the margins. You see people going for two point conversions

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Speaker 1: more frequently now because the analytics say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: looking at the law of averages or um, you know,

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Speaker 1: going forward on fourth down more, but looking at injuries

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Speaker 1: and what they're doing is really just running computer simulations

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds and thousands of times over, using this

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Speaker 1: data that they have, using these videos that they have

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Speaker 1: to look at. How you know, how how can you

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Speaker 1: you know, eliminate some of these And you know, the

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Speaker 1: NFL is an inherently violent game. I mean there's this

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Speaker 1: tension with you know this uh, you know, concern for

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Speaker 1: for injury prevention. But the fans love the big hits,

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Speaker 1: you know. They used to have a segment in on

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Speaker 1: ESPN he he got jacked up, and and everybody was

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Speaker 1: watching and I and he including me, and then we

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Speaker 1: realized it's like, oh my goodness, they they are really

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Speaker 1: you know, getting seriously injured. Yeah, you know, and this

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Speaker 1: is really uh, Obviously, over the last couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: this has taken on more urgency with the Tomorrow Hamlin injury.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this year, with the two Gatago Viola injury, very

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Speaker 1: high profile primetime games which were very upsetting. Uh, clearly,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and uh, you know, so it's but on

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Speaker 1: the flip side, you know, the the NFL has uh

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Speaker 1: the percentage of injuries has decreased using these special helmets

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Speaker 1: in the preseason. Uh, Mike, Mike can speak more of

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Speaker 1: this because he talked to them than I did. But

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Speaker 1: that was one thing that was interesting to me was, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, even over a short sample period, and uh,

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Speaker 1: it was the injuries decreased, which is statistically pretty impressive. Mike.

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Speaker 1: What was was that something that stood out to you

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Speaker 1: in terms of how it's been affective. Yeah, I think, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that they realized was

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Speaker 1: with load management and sort of understanding the mechanics of

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Speaker 1: that better. So what we talked about in the article

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Speaker 1: that was actually interesting was that deals in training camp,

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Speaker 1: you would come out and you would work the guys

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Speaker 1: really hard to start, and what the analytics told him

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Speaker 1: was that that was completely backwards, that you actually need

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Speaker 1: to slowly ramp up these guys because what happens when

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Speaker 1: you start out hard is, uh, there's two things. Wanted

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Speaker 1: to get more injuries, and if you get more injuries,

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Speaker 1: it's harder to load the playbook and sort of get

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Speaker 1: all the reps you need to sort of build team chemistry. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it was sort of, uh, sort of a rainbow

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Speaker 1: effect that way, which was kind of which was kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting for them to see. But then they noticed

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Speaker 1: that guys were just saying fresher longer. And obviously in

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Speaker 1: a in a grueling sport like the NFL, the team

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Speaker 1: that's the freshest, you know, coming into the playoff off playoffs,

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Speaker 1: that's gonna be the team that's gonna probably be most successful.

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Speaker 1: And so it's a copycat league. Everyone always says that,

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Speaker 1: and and the NFL was pretty honest about that. As well.

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Speaker 1: The teams that have adopted these who have adopted these

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Speaker 1: datasets and incorporated them into their training, those are the

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Speaker 1: teams are seeing the greatest amount of success. And the

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Speaker 1: NFL makes all that data available to to to all

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Speaker 1: thirty two teams. UH. And so the adoption rate, there

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Speaker 1: was a little kg about this, the adoption rate by

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Speaker 1: certain teams. UH. It's not as high on at some

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Speaker 1: organizations as others. UM. But there's a good beat that

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Speaker 1: whoever is doing well in the playoffs this year is

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Speaker 1: as an organization is really bought into the analytics of

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Speaker 1: of of injuries and sort of looking at load management

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Speaker 1: in ways that other teams are not. I want to

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Speaker 1: ask both of you this question, but I'll start with

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Speaker 1: Michael the to Viola injury. Of the concussions, and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the one where he suffered the fur concussion

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Speaker 1: and then four days later that extremely scary concussion. But

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Speaker 1: the Miami Dolphins, they were criticized because for some reason

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Speaker 1: they cleared ta Viola to go back out for the

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Speaker 1: next game, and that's when it really was scary. Michael,

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Speaker 1: How could they miss that or what fell through the

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Speaker 1: cracks from that first concussion you know, I wouldn't really

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Speaker 1: be able to speak to that or no, and in

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Speaker 1: some ways it wasn't under the purview of the reporting

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Speaker 1: that I was doing. But I also think that my

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Speaker 1: guess is, had I asked the NFL about that, they

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Speaker 1: probably would have punted that to the organization. It said, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's individual teams. But you know, I will say,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that, as we all know, the

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Speaker 1: NFL is a big behemoth. It's it's a big money

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Speaker 1: making machine. And as Jim talked about with the tension

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Speaker 1: between you know, how much it's a ladiatorial sport. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we like contact. I mean, that's what is a you

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Speaker 1: knowing about the NFL um But I did get the

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Speaker 1: feeling that, you know, although they have taken some uh

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Speaker 1: justifiably uh criticism in the media for how they've handled concussions,

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Speaker 1: when I talked to Jeff Miller, I felt like, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of what he was saying was pretty sincere,

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Speaker 1: that they're trying to do the best they can. It's

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Speaker 1: just an inherently violent sport. And if you talk to

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Speaker 1: the researchers, which which I've also talked to the researchers,

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Speaker 1: you know, one thing I put to the NFL, and

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Speaker 1: I put some of these researchers, was like, aren't we

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Speaker 1: just making these guys more efficient so that they'll be

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Speaker 1: they'll they'll be faster and stronger, and that they'll hit

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Speaker 1: even harder, you know, with all this like the machine

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Speaker 1: learning and uh. And one of the researchers that I

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Speaker 1: know said, I don't know if I believe that or not.

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Speaker 1: He said, you know, for a long time, we didn't

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Speaker 1: think we'd get there with automobiles, which is the genesis

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Speaker 1: of a lot of this sort of research they didn't concussions,

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Speaker 1: was from the automobile industry and looking at crash test

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Speaker 1: dummy sizes and learning how they could apply that to

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Speaker 1: the to the physical collision of men on made in

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Speaker 1: a football game. Jim, we talked about to but all

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Speaker 1: in this article is the Damar Hamlin injury. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if there is any way to prevent an injury like that.

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Speaker 1: He went into cardiac arrest and it was one of

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Speaker 1: those freak things because it was a normal hit and

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Speaker 1: Tee Higgins, he didn't do anything wrong with the hit

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Speaker 1: at all. It just scared everybody who was an NFL

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Speaker 1: fan and obviously the Buffalo Bills. Yeah, you know, Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor, um, but um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: feel like that that was judging from the reactions that

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Speaker 1: I've seen from football players, you know, it seemed like

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Speaker 1: a freak thing that there was really not much you

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Speaker 1: could do to prevent that. But what I will say

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Speaker 1: is that the action plan that they had in place

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Speaker 1: to resuscitate him, that is an absolutely outgrowth of the

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Speaker 1: research that they've been doing over the last few years.

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Speaker 1: And that is a plan that they put in place

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Speaker 1: specifically for a freak accident like that. And I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, that action plan is

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Speaker 1: not in place. I remember seeing Tony dorsset and he

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Speaker 1: was playing, I believe it was a Monday night game,

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Speaker 1: and uh, one of the greatest running backs in the league.

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Speaker 1: And that was back in the time, and we wanted

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Speaker 1: to see big old hits. So he hits head first

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Speaker 1: into a defensive player and it literally knocks his helmet askew.

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Speaker 1: And now today, Michael, he's dealing with concussions. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: thank goodness, the game has changed with all of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, folks, I need to explain something

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Speaker 1: too in the article they create an AI player and

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Speaker 1: I know you've seen the commercials where you got the

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Speaker 1: person and they were in the ping pong balls and

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Speaker 1: this and that, and it's cute and you get a

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Speaker 1: chuckle on it. But Michael, this is something that is

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Speaker 1: really serious for the NFL and they have taken it

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Speaker 1: to the degree and and good for them. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think some of the stuff that they're doing is

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Speaker 1: actually to be commended and is actually pretty cutting edge.

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Speaker 1: So they they started a number of contests where you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're giving out funds for companies to develop new products.

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Speaker 1: So the helmets, the helmet Challenge was was the first

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Speaker 1: one that they did and they got. I mean, one

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Speaker 1: of the most interesting companies that sort of came into

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Speaker 1: that was a place called Impresario Tech, which was actually

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Speaker 1: a medical device company that that was working on spun

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Speaker 1: research and sort of you know when you're as you

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Speaker 1: get older and your adrea sort of spine injury. They

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Speaker 1: had developed this sort of the best way for us

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Speaker 1: to understand and be like like a jello, you know,

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Speaker 1: a jello that you put in between your spine that

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Speaker 1: was like a shock absorber that would sort of help

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Speaker 1: leave and alleviate pain. Well, they were one of the

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Speaker 1: companies that that wants the money by jumping into the

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Speaker 1: helmet technology challenge, and I think that the machine learning

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Speaker 1: and the AI stuff is really interesting. One of the

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Speaker 1: coolest insights that we couldn't put into the article is

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Speaker 1: just that you know, we may not recognize it, but

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Speaker 1: they've changed how kickoffs are done in part to sort

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Speaker 1: of slow down collisions, which is a direct result of

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Speaker 1: the of the research. But another thing that they think

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Speaker 1: will change at some point is like they'll have all

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Speaker 1: this data and so eventually, you know, the way that

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Speaker 1: they do punt may change, Like you may not be

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Speaker 1: able to like double team a gunner on the edge

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Speaker 1: during a punt because they see that that's gonna create

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Speaker 1: more sort of injury models. But it maybe even something

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Speaker 1: long term where they want to get out in front

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Speaker 1: of where they may sort of like maybe the quarterback

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Speaker 1: sneak goes away, maybe bootlegs go away. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a real possibility that strategically how you play the game,

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Speaker 1: aside from going for the fourth down or going for two,

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Speaker 1: but actual formations maybe outlawed or actual play calls could

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Speaker 1: potentially be outlawed. I mean, it's hard for them to

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Speaker 1: sort of say that that will happen. But as they

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Speaker 1: get more data and they can sort of see that

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Speaker 1: there's a causal relationship between a certain playtop and certain

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Speaker 1: injury types, they're gonna go away from that. There's just

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Speaker 1: it's just a natural thing that will happen. The other

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Speaker 1: thing that they can do eventually that they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: able to do probably within five years, if not less,

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Speaker 1: as they can go to certain players and say, like, look,

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Speaker 1: based off the way you move, based off the way

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Speaker 1: you run, based off the way you come out of breaks,

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Speaker 1: you need to use this shoot or you need to

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Speaker 1: change your gate or the way that you operate, because

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Speaker 1: it's gonna make you, you you know, just making up a

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Speaker 1: number here, six percent more likely to have a knee injury.

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Speaker 1: Like that's how That's how deep the data is gonna go.

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Speaker 1: And two Gym's earlier point like this goes far beyond

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Speaker 1: just like you know, pumping up more threes during an

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Speaker 1: NBA game. It's gonna really come down to, like really

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out to keep these guys on the field,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think anybody believes that they're not gonna

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Speaker 1: go to eight team games eventually, right, So and and Michael,

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Speaker 1: you brought up a very good point and Jim about

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Speaker 1: how the game has changed back you know, before the

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Speaker 1: a f L and NFL merged, the NFL was that

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Speaker 1: old pounding ground game and you know, you know, three

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Speaker 1: yards and a cloud of dust and this and that whatever.

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Speaker 1: The a f L they're the guys that kind of

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Speaker 1: brought the airing out of the football. And that is

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Speaker 1: to me, now I could be dead wrong. Is when

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Speaker 1: we started to see an increase more in these injuries.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm not talking about the usual you know, bruise

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Speaker 1: and this and that whatever, but I'm i mean very

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Speaker 1: serious injuries from legs and this and that whatever. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there was a time when players, Jim said, don't hit

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Speaker 1: me low, hit me high, and now that is totally changed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know it's um, I I was just thinking about

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Speaker 1: three yards and a cloud of dust, you know. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it reminds me of of rugby. You know,

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Speaker 1: these guys are huge, um they get in these massive scrums,

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Speaker 1: but they're not wearing helmets. You know. It's it's these

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Speaker 1: plays where you've got really fast, really strong human beings

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Speaker 1: running at each other at full speed, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I mean the forward past certainly brought that into

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Speaker 1: into modern days, sort of like NFL plays. If you're

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Speaker 1: just like you know, if you're running the ball all

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Speaker 1: the time, I think you're all kind of like in

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Speaker 1: close proximity, you're not going to have those massive collisions.

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Speaker 1: And that's certainly, um why they have in recent years

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Speaker 1: changed those kickoff rules. You can't get such a big

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Speaker 1: running start. You you only get like a five yard

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Speaker 1: running start. I I have a hard time believing that

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Speaker 1: that's gonna um, you know, there's there won't be. I

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Speaker 1: believe there will be changes coming to that play in

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Speaker 1: the years. The game always evolves. Yeah, And and Jim,

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Speaker 1: you brought up a point in Michael about practice, and

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Speaker 1: because of all of this going on with the player,

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Speaker 1: they realized, look, we gotta limit practice, especially when you

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Speaker 1: first come back for the first several days, because guys

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Speaker 1: were getting injured. You know, back in the old day,

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Speaker 1: it's like, all right, now, go out there and eat

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Speaker 1: some nails and glass and go out there on the field,

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Speaker 1: and and you know, and guys were getting hurt. And

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Speaker 1: then they realized, wait a minute, we gotta we gotta

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Speaker 1: tone this down, Like, yeah, I think that's right, and

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Speaker 1: I think like there was an article recently out of

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Speaker 1: Minnesota about how they've done a really good job of

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Speaker 1: managing their sort of in season practices and then coming

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Speaker 1: off a bye week, they hadn't had contact since the

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Speaker 1: game in almost ten days, and so they knew that

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Speaker 1: they had They knew that they had to put the

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Speaker 1: pads on, because there is an element where you do

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Speaker 1: have to put the paths on. You have to do

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Speaker 1: a couple of a couple of rough plays, a couple

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Speaker 1: of rough practices. But the teams are getting smarter about

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Speaker 1: the fact that you just can't continue to do that

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Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into the season. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that's what you just see. Like a lot of other

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Speaker 1: things will sort of take that place. Will be sort

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Speaker 1: of more book learning, will be more sort of film watching.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be more of a of an emphasis

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Speaker 1: on those kinds of things to sort of try to

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Speaker 1: keep guys as fresh as possible for as long as possible.

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Speaker 1: And Jim, I know we're running out of time, but

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Speaker 1: it's one of those things too. All of these analytics

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Speaker 1: will also help, and I think we've mentioned it just

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Speaker 1: for a brief moment on how the broadcasters will present

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Speaker 1: the game. I mean, you know, back in my day

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Speaker 1: is like oh in living color, look out, we got

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Speaker 1: to my tech here. And now then they had the

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Speaker 1: overhead cam that came in eventually, and now they're they're

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Speaker 1: trying to get the analytics from all of this information

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Speaker 1: on how to get the best camera. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a better experience for the fans, to be honest, um,

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Speaker 1: but it's going to help the sponsors and the advertisers. No. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what what what what's there? As one of

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Speaker 1: them put it, the overall value proposition, which is a

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Speaker 1: great phrase, you know, exact play what that means? You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like are we getting or what what kind of

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Speaker 1: bank are we getting for our buck? Mike, you talked

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Speaker 1: to the guy who is one of the main uh

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Speaker 1: or one of the guys who's developing the software. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, they can they can tell I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: steal your your thunder, I don't think, Mike, but you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a golfer, they can tell if if like

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Speaker 1: the sponsor, if they should be on the hat or

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Speaker 1: on the sleeve or the left sleeve or the rights

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Speaker 1: leave Mike what what what else? Yeah, they I mean

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Speaker 1: they've got that. All what they can do is they

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Speaker 1: can calibrate down to this second, you know how much

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Speaker 1: exposure your brand is getting. But they can also and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of money involved

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Speaker 1: in that from both sides. So the company can double dip.

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Speaker 1: They can go to the sponsor and say like, look

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Speaker 1: like Justin Thomas needs to have that logo on his

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Speaker 1: left sleeve and not on his hat. That's how you

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Speaker 1: can get the most money. But they can also go

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Speaker 1: to the They can also go to broadcast, or they

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Speaker 1: can go to any of the broadcasters and said like,

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Speaker 1: look like you're overpaying for these rods because you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're only getting this much money and this is how

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Speaker 1: much that they're getting exposures. So they get to double

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Speaker 1: dip on both ends and tell people how to do

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. But then the other thing that was

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Speaker 1: really a little bit orwell and about it was like

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Speaker 1: they can do a screen graph. They've got software where

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Speaker 1: they could do a screen grab literally of a of

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Speaker 1: a venue, of a stadium an arena, and in that

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Speaker 1: screen grap they can tell you how many people are

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Speaker 1: actually engaged with the action on the court or on

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Speaker 1: the field, you know, based on and like within seconds,

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Speaker 1: based off this proprietary algorithm they've invented so that you know,

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Speaker 1: you can see how many people are actually looking at

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Speaker 1: their phones and looking at the field. But then they

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Speaker 1: can tell you all the demographic data of the people

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Speaker 1: inside the arena as well, and they can tell you male, female, age, race,

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Speaker 1: They can tell you how many people are actually I

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Speaker 1: didn't know this was a thing until the reporting, but

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Speaker 1: there are people that actually look up highlights during the

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Speaker 1: game of the games they're watching on YouTube, so they

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Speaker 1: can tell you what the san engagement is on social

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Speaker 1: media and on YouTube of an actual game that they're watching.

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Speaker 1: They can collect all that and that's where that overall

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Speaker 1: value probably issu Jo talk about comes in. They can

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Speaker 1: give all that to different arenas or broadcasters, and it's

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Speaker 1: just a way to really sort of maximize as much

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Speaker 1: money as possible. Obviously. Wow. Bloomberg Business Week contributor Michael

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Speaker 1: Crowley Bloomberg pursuits Deputy editor Jim Gatty laying some knowledge

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Speaker 1: on US man, I have really enjoyed this. By the way,

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Speaker 1: this story is featured in the current issue of Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Business Week magazine, which is the Year Ahead issue, and

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Speaker 1: it's available online at Bloomberg dot com, on newsstands, and

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Speaker 1: of course, on the Bloomberg terminal. Jim, Michael, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. We really do appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Right here on the Bloomberg Business of Sports. This has

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Speaker 1: been the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast where we explore

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Speaker 1: some of the big money issues in the world of

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Speaker 1: sports at Michael Barr. By the way, you can download

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Speaker 1: this show every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: you can download it wherever you get your podcasts. Four