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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Brown Ambition, y'all. I am so excited

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Speaker 1: to be joined by the brilliant and stunning and looking

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Speaker 1: incredible bowl color and some melanin like you can't go wrong.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest is Anna gifty Opoku Ajamin. She is the

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Speaker 1: award winning researcher, speaker, and author of the powerful and

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Speaker 1: brand new book like go buy it immediately right now

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Speaker 1: when you're listening to this. It's called the Double Tax,

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Speaker 1: How women of color are overcharged and underpaid of reality.

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Speaker 1: We know too damn well, but we gonna talk about it.

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Speaker 1: But I'm so excited to have Anna on the show.

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Speaker 1: Her work Exposed has exposed the compounded financial, social, and

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Speaker 1: emotional costs faced by US women of color in America.

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Speaker 1: She offers insights and solutions. Now I have emphasis on

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Speaker 1: the solutions because I was scrolling. I'm like, is this

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Speaker 1: going to be just about how terrible it is to

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Speaker 1: be a black woman. No, let's get into like, you

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Speaker 1: know what actually can be done. So in her book,

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Speaker 1: Anna offers insights and solutions for economic justice and equity

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Speaker 1: and puts the spotlight on the hidden costs women of

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Speaker 1: color face across their lives and careers hidden to everybody else,

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Speaker 1: very well known to us. It is damn expensive to

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Speaker 1: be a woman of color in this country, and the

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Speaker 1: book really challenges, I think the reader to rethink how

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Speaker 1: we are valuing, compensating, and championing all women, which may

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Speaker 1: be a bit triggering to some all women. But I

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Speaker 1: think what's great about the book is that it's a

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Speaker 1: book that I feel like you can hand to a

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Speaker 1: non woman of color, you know, to our white women allies,

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Speaker 1: and just be like, read this right here, read this

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Speaker 1: right here, and then go do something about it. Also,

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Speaker 1: Anna founded the Black Birders Week, which I need out

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Speaker 1: to know about.

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Speaker 2: You could.

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Speaker 1: A little fun fact because she's not busy enough. In

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Speaker 1: addition to having a ton of degrees from some very

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Speaker 1: elite institutions, you just graduated with your masters from Harvard,

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Speaker 1: the Harvard Kennedy School, No less PhD.

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Speaker 2: Loading great an I gift you.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Welcome to Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Can I just say that your intro, especially about the book,

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Speaker 3: is so the best I've heard so far, just perfectly

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Speaker 3: encapsulates is giving you read exactly so I'm so so

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Speaker 3: grateful to be here. This community is so special to me.

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Speaker 3: Thank you guys for existing. There's so many people who

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Speaker 3: rely on the insights that you share, so I'm super,

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Speaker 3: super honored to be here. I told my publicist, Taylor

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Speaker 3: the publicist shout out to black one publicist.

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Speaker 2: I was like, are you better give me a and

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Speaker 2: here we are. It was you know what, I.

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Speaker 1: Have been stalking your book for months. I feel like

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of the year, I email Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think I emailed like all my all the top five publishers,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm a brown ambition because people

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Speaker 1: weren't sending me enough books. I'm like, I need more books,

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Speaker 1: I need more authors on the show. So I emailed

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Speaker 1: the top five publishers and like, I think Taylor was

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Speaker 1: one of the first to get back and say, here's

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Speaker 1: our here's our slate of upcoming and your book was

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Speaker 1: on it. And I was like, damn, not till the summer.

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Speaker 1: You can get her till the summer. But yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: been We've been waiting for this for months. So very

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Speaker 1: happy to have you on.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: All Right, so tell us a little bit about you.

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Speaker 1: Where are you from, Where did you grow up?

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Speaker 2: Before we get into.

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Speaker 1: The nitty gritty of the book.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so, Hi everybody, my name is Anna Folks on

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Speaker 3: me onlines, Anna gifty gifty is actually probably my first name.

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Speaker 3: As Mandy just shared, I have a longer last name.

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Speaker 3: I actually have multiple names. We're not going to get

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Speaker 3: into that, but it is a slight flex. I used

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Speaker 3: to write my name as sort of like a party

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Speaker 3: trick at kid birthday parties. That being said, and I

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Speaker 3: read your name really absolutely yeah. It's like my parents

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Speaker 3: just couldn't stop naming me. But anyway, that being said,

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Speaker 3: I'm super excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: I'm originally from Ghana.

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Speaker 3: I was born there for like three seconds, and then

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Speaker 3: my parents got something called the visa lottery, so it

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Speaker 3: gave them US citizenship to basically come over here with

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Speaker 3: our entire family. And from there, I actually landed first

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Speaker 3: in Minneapolis shout out to the Midwest, and then I

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Speaker 3: was really raising the DMV. So I was raised in

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Speaker 3: Maryland and I'm a proud Marylander, huge Ravens fan.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm a Lakers fan.

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Speaker 3: Chaut to Kobe rest in pes And I would also

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Speaker 3: say too that I'm just like a girlfriend around the way,

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Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, I'm someone

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Speaker 3: who's gonna play uno with you and be very intense

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm gonna go ahead and make up my rules.

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Speaker 3: But I'm also just like a sister, a niece, somebody's daughter,

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Speaker 3: you know, and then also just like trying to be

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Speaker 3: a good friend and good human.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: I know there's like accolades that people might know about,

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Speaker 3: but I'm just honestly and I'm just excited to be

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Speaker 3: in this conversation.

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Speaker 1: So, at what point throughout your academic career, because you

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Speaker 1: had an interesting career, you spent some time in academia,

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Speaker 1: you didn't have your first corporate interview or corporate like

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Speaker 1: job negotiation until twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that right.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about your career path?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: And also just really quick, I'm a headstar kid, so

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Speaker 3: shout out the heads start folks. You're in the mixed

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Speaker 3: educate please America, come on, keep it alive, please re

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Speaker 3: begging anyway.

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Speaker 2: Career path. Yeah, so, I mean I'll take it back

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Speaker 2: to a little bit.

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Speaker 3: So when I was in college, I essentially started out

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Speaker 3: at the flagship University of my state. This is University

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Speaker 3: of Maryland College Park, And funny enough, I actually started

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Speaker 3: out in business. But as many people know, like when

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Speaker 3: you're in the undergrad level, business degrees are really preparing

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Speaker 3: you for one type of job, and it's to be

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Speaker 3: a consultant of some kind.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know. For me, I'm just kind of

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Speaker 2: like I feel like I can do a bit more

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Speaker 2: than that.

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Speaker 3: Like maybe I end up there, but let me see

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Speaker 3: if there are other ways to explore. Girl, I had

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Speaker 3: like a you know, what's like a mid midlife existential crisis,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, what am I doing with my life?

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Speaker 3: And so I ended up transferring to our sister university,

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Speaker 3: which is University of Melenbalbara County, where I actually start

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Speaker 3: off as pre med And that was an experience derogatory.

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Speaker 1: You had to do it, you had to try.

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Speaker 3: I had to try, right, you know. The parents were like,

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Speaker 3: we would love a doctor in the family. They're gonna

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Speaker 3: get one, but not the one that they were expecting.

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Speaker 3: And so I got like basically weeded out by the

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Speaker 3: weed out course organic chemistry and decided to pursue math

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Speaker 3: on a women a prayer quite frankly, and it's funny

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Speaker 3: because the timing of that, essentially was when I decided

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Speaker 3: to pursue math. The university president at the time was like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: we're getting this like multimillion dollar grant to get more

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Speaker 3: minorities into economics.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to do it? And I was like,

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Speaker 2: what's economics?

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Speaker 3: And so I ended up googling economists and I was

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Speaker 3: surprised to see how it was forty shades of age

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Speaker 3: and they all come from like the same three or

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Speaker 3: four universities. But what was interesting was that, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was the kind of kid that watched Ted Talks

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Speaker 3: for fun. Don't judge me, but I was watching Ted

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Speaker 3: Talks for fun, and I realized I had been watching

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Speaker 3: economists pretty much like my whole life, but I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what they were. I thought they were like a

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Speaker 3: different type of lawyer. So when I learned about what

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Speaker 3: economics actually was, I was like, whoa, this is like

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Speaker 3: really dope, Like we're using numbers to solve problems, but

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Speaker 3: for people.

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Speaker 2: Like that's actually really cool.

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Speaker 3: And so ultimately that led me to pursue my bachelor's

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Speaker 3: in math, finished with honors. Shout out to Shout out

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Speaker 3: to God, and shout out to my brain. I'm very

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Speaker 3: excited about that. And well, the reason I say that too,

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Speaker 3: is because I had an advisor at the time who

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Speaker 3: you know, was telling me not to pursue the PhD.

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Speaker 3: And at this point I had decided to do the

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Speaker 3: PhD because that's why I decided to major in math,

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Speaker 3: and he did not know my math schedule. So one

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Speaker 3: day he saw and he was like, you're taking applied stats,

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Speaker 3: probability and statistics.

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Speaker 2: Wait, these are like really hard courses.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, I know I need it for

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Speaker 3: my math major because I'm trying to do this PhD.

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Speaker 2: Like we want to like.

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Speaker 1: In this university. That was like, we got this money

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Speaker 1: to put more women, probably people of color in this field,

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Speaker 1: but clearly the advisors didn't catch up. Do you think

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Speaker 1: he went in Do you think that I read that

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Speaker 1: in the book and I was going to ask about it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we all have a story about that,

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Speaker 1: Like shout out to every English professor who accused me

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Speaker 1: of plagiarism. No, I didn't grow Okay, I just have

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Speaker 1: social anxiety and I don't talk, but I write a lot.

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Speaker 1: I write good. Well, we all have, like you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that that's one of the experiences. It's it's

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Speaker 1: like very cathartic, I think to describe who was a

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Speaker 1: person who told you that you can't do or shouldn't

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Speaker 1: do the thing that you wanted to do, and you

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Speaker 1: know you did it anyway. Yeah, but do you think

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Speaker 1: I mean, you do touch on that in the in

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Speaker 1: the book, the idea of you know, the DEI initiatives

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Speaker 1: like that, and how even those if we come through

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Speaker 1: a DEI program can sometimes be a double tax in

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Speaker 1: and of itself, like like you're getting this benefit of

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Speaker 1: getting a seat at the table, but people are not

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Speaker 1: taking you seriously because you are, like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: great Katanji Brown Jackson a DEI higher, right, I think

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice listen, like.

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Speaker 3: And we're talking about and I think I laid out

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Speaker 3: her credentials in the book that lady is that in

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Speaker 3: terms of her credentials, So anybody who was like, what's

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Speaker 3: her what's her outside scores?

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Speaker 2: What's your LSID score?

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Speaker 3: Okay stands for first of all, right, break down that

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Speaker 3: acronym for me, please. But yeah, I think that, like

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Speaker 3: everything you're saying is exactly right. I went through pretty

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Speaker 3: much every diversity program in economics that you could possibly

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Speaker 3: imagine I've done everything right. And it's interesting because you know,

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Speaker 3: people know that I've done these things, and so they

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Speaker 3: I remember when I got into Harvard. Oh my god,

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Speaker 3: so that's the next part of my journey, by the way.

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Speaker 3: So I got into Harvard. It was the only school

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Speaker 3: that accepted me, by the way, for the PhD. And

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Speaker 3: there were people who were like, she only got in

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Speaker 3: because she's a diversity hire. And it's interesting, right, because

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Speaker 3: they had seen me go through these diversity programs. Oh,

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Speaker 3: she only got boastered. They only care about her.

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Speaker 2: Da da da da da.

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Speaker 3: But guess who is being paraded in part of the

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Speaker 3: protures in this university because of the merits.

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Speaker 2: You see what I'm saying. So it's interesting me that,

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Speaker 2: like people.

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Speaker 3: Always want to say that diversity and merit are at

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Speaker 3: odds with each other.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes they'll say diversity and merit are substitutes.

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Speaker 3: But what I say in the book and what I'll

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Speaker 3: say here is they're actually compliments.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: You don't want people who are qualified in the same way.

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Speaker 3: Let's start there, right, You need these complementary skills to

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Speaker 3: build something better. In economics, we have this idea of

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Speaker 3: sort of like perfect competition. You have all these different

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Speaker 3: things competing against each other. The best thing rises to

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Speaker 3: the top, ideally, But what happens if it's like groupthink

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Speaker 3: or everybody has the same ideas, it's like a flat line,

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Speaker 3: so to speak, Like there's nothing that's actually gonna potentially

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Speaker 3: benefit society or even the room because there's not a

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Speaker 3: lot of ideas like flowing to the top.

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Speaker 1: And it's comfy, cozy there for some people. And some

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Speaker 1: people are very comfy and like they want to wrap

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Speaker 1: themselves up in that like white security blanket and just

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Speaker 1: be like I know exactly what everyone else thinks and

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Speaker 1: feels like no one's challenging me, right, no one's a

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Speaker 1: threat to me and my survival. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Let me say it like this.

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Speaker 3: If a tsunami is coming and some people start running

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Speaker 3: the opposite way, and you say, I'm gonna go ahead

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Speaker 3: and lay down on my beach child, I'm comfort here,

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Speaker 3: I'm comfortable. It's not really touching me right now. At

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Speaker 3: some point that tsunami hits, where will you be, Will

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Speaker 3: you be like in safety or will you be amongst

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Speaker 3: those who are like fighting for their life?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's kind of why you don't

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Speaker 3: want to be in the comfort of your white security blanket.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to.

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Speaker 3: Save you at the end of the day, right, And

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day too, I would say

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Speaker 3: that a lot of the ideas that you know, diversity

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Speaker 3: allows to really come to the forefront are really about

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Speaker 3: the betterment of everybody in society. There's people who seem

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Speaker 3: to think that like diversity is synonymous with like people

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Speaker 3: of color or shirt and grooves. But as folks are

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Speaker 3: discovering it has these programs are getting rolled back. It

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Speaker 3: supports veterans, it supports working class and poor folks, it

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Speaker 3: supports people who are returning school.

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Speaker 2: You might be white and fall into some of those groups, right, and.

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Speaker 3: So you acting like this thing that only affects black

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Speaker 3: people's only affecting black people is actually harming your long

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Speaker 3: term benefit.

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Speaker 2: And that's like, why would you do that? You don't

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Speaker 2: want to harm yourself.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I mean, I think DEI I don't think

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Speaker 1: any other groups benefited more than white women.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's the two That's the day.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna wait for this, but I have to talk.

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Speaker 1: Chelsea Clinton wrote the forward for your book, how if

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Speaker 1: that happened and why.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question.

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Speaker 3: So essentially Chelsea and I met back in I want

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Speaker 3: to say, twenty twenty, and so she was someone right

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Speaker 3: before I published my first book, which I edited, by

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Speaker 3: the way folks, so I wrote it, but I was

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Speaker 3: just the mc guys folks wrote that book.

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Speaker 2: But long story short, she had been kind of a

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Speaker 2: strong supporter.

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Speaker 3: Of the work that I was doing early on around

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Speaker 3: that time, and we had come together to kind of

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Speaker 3: put together an event for black girls and black women

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Speaker 3: at the Clinton Foundation. And so I think she saw

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Speaker 3: it as like, Okay, like this is one way I

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Speaker 3: can show sort of allyship and support, but I also

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Speaker 3: will say, like, just to be quite candid, this is

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Speaker 3: the kind of book that I actually do need white

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Speaker 3: women to pick up, right, And so there was a

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Speaker 3: question or a conversation about, you know, who do we

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Speaker 3: want to kind of open up the book, And I

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Speaker 3: remember our team kind of discussing this and ultimately deciding like,

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Speaker 3: we kind of want someone who's not a woman of

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Speaker 3: color because I'm a woman of color, and we don't

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Speaker 3: want people to feel like they can't really approach the

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Speaker 3: book because it's only you know, that's kind of what's happening.

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Speaker 2: I'll just be very candid because we're being honest here.

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Speaker 3: What I'm learning as I'm promoting this book is that

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Speaker 3: women's spaces are very coded for rich white women.

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Speaker 2: And of course I'm preaching to the choir.

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Speaker 1: I lived through the Wing. Do you know remember the Wing?

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Speaker 2: Is that a show? No?

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Speaker 1: No, no, it's that coworking space. It was like rich

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Speaker 1: white girls. Oh, because you're a little bit younger than me,

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, So anyway, but go ahead look it

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Speaker 1: up after this great What I'm.

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Speaker 2: Saying, like, when people are saying, oh, women in leadership,

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Speaker 2: they're not talking about us. We're not considered women.

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Speaker 3: There's a saying that you know, my wonderful chief of

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Speaker 3: staff I used to share with me. She said, white

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Speaker 3: women are women and black women are men, basically right,

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Speaker 3: like everybody else who is not considered a woman. That's

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Speaker 3: like white women are men, or like they're not considered women,

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Speaker 3: that they're considered minorities, they're considered part of another group.

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Speaker 2: And so it's been interesting.

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Speaker 3: To be like, hey, these are issues that women of

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Speaker 3: color are kind of centered in, like let's talk about it,

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Speaker 3: and seeing these women's spaces be like, hmmm, it's not

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Speaker 3: Black History Month, yet it's not Hispanic Heritage Month. I

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Speaker 3: don't know this is the right time whole time, Like,

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Speaker 3: we're seeing women of color, especially black women, being attacked

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Speaker 3: on a number of different fronts, especially economically and politically,

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Speaker 3: and folks are not seeing this as a story that

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Speaker 3: women white women should care about. And so I think

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Speaker 3: that Chelsea's role here is actually really important. That she's

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Speaker 3: also kind of inviting these white women who claim to

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Speaker 3: be allies and purport support for women of color to

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Speaker 3: actually put their money where their mouth is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it occurred to me as I was

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Speaker 1: because when I finally read it, I was reading and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this makes perfect sense. I think it's

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Speaker 1: it is that little bit of like, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, you can be cynical about it and

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Speaker 1: be like, well, no one was there to make us

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Speaker 1: feel more comfortable being the only ones in the room,

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Speaker 1: But she is that like familiar face for a reader

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Speaker 1: that you want to reach to be like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: like Chelsea, she is great And you know, Mili check

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Speaker 1: out this book.

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Speaker 2: That's right, which is the whole point.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's a really great example and

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Speaker 1: kudos to her. You know, I think we should give

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Speaker 1: the flowers when a white woman isn't actually an ally

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Speaker 1: and uses their clout, their status there, you know, their

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Speaker 1: their name, recognition, whatever platform they have to like lift

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Speaker 1: up another woman of color in their voice. And so

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to touch on that because in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: when I first saw it, I was like, but it makes.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people were like, why don't you have

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Speaker 3: like a black one open up or another woman of color?

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Speaker 3: And I completely understand that. I think, like there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of different iterations of how that could have gone.

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Speaker 1: But also aren't we we're tired of talking about how

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Speaker 1: hard it is to be us.

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Speaker 3: I think that was also how I was like, I

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Speaker 3: think the conversation, you know, it's interesting, Like for me

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Speaker 3: putting this book together, a couple of things came through

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Speaker 3: my mind in terms of target audience, Like obviously women

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Speaker 3: in general their target audience, but I also think, men,

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Speaker 3: you need to read this book. You'a allso about the

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Speaker 3: longest epidemic. It starts with empathy, guys, So this is.

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Speaker 2: A book to read.

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Speaker 3: My dad, I feel like better understood my experience as

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Speaker 3: a woman and my mom's experience as a woman, and

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Speaker 3: my sister by like really hearing about the book. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and we can talk more about that after. But overall,

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Speaker 3: I think what I learned was a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: One, you know, not all of us.

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Speaker 3: Have the facts about our experiences, but we do have

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Speaker 3: the fact of our experience, right, so we know, like

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Speaker 3: you know, as we're going through things like this definitely

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Speaker 3: happened to me. But I think what this book does

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Speaker 3: is it puts numbers to your experience and says, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and there's like a lot of data to back that up. Right,

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Speaker 3: you're not going crazy, you're not imagining that, And I

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Speaker 3: think that that's really important. I think the other thing

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Speaker 3: that this does is it completely removes any opportunity to

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Speaker 3: gaslight And that's why I love this book.

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Speaker 2: Actually, Right, the facts.

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Speaker 3: Are so can I cuss, so damn clear.

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Speaker 4: That's it.

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Speaker 2: That's why you're gonna get me, I'm so. But it's

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Speaker 2: so clear y'all that this is the reality.

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Speaker 3: Anybody trying to refute it is just a liar at

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Speaker 3: this point, because we're citing articles, we're citing books, we're

390
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Speaker 3: citing op eds, we're citing experts, and we're saying there's

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Speaker 3: no denying that women of color overcharging, underpaid, and we

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Speaker 3: and there's no denying with the double taxes and how

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Speaker 3: it manifest in our society and makes literally everything worse.

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Speaker 3: And now, what I've told folks, especially white women, is

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Speaker 3: you don't want to ignore what's happening to women of color.

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Speaker 3: I know that, like some of these spaces will pretend

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Speaker 3: like women of color are kind of an afterthought, But what.

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Speaker 2: Is tested on us first will be excellent.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Like it's gonna happen to

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Speaker 3: you next, Like you don't want to be like you

401
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 3: you could, you could literally get it right now and

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Speaker 3: when you talk to us about it. But if you're

403
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Speaker 3: not talking to us, you don't know the tsunami that's

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Speaker 3: coming your way.

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Speaker 2: And that's essentially what this is about.

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Speaker 1: It's so true. I mean, first they come for minorities

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Speaker 1: in the decon you know what, just the word minor

408
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Speaker 1: minority when you were talking, I'm like, we need to stop.

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Speaker 1: We don't call it a minority diamond. We call it

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Speaker 1: a rare or minority gemstones. They're rare. They're precious, yes

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Speaker 1: they are. And I love the idea of just like

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Speaker 1: reframing it in that way. And like when you see

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Speaker 1: a person of color, one of color at your in

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Speaker 1: your on your team and you're you know, in your

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Speaker 1: company or just throughout your word, and it's just like

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Speaker 1: zoom in on that person. Yes, they're special, they're unique,

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Speaker 1: Like why wouldn't you want to appreciate that? All right,

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Speaker 1: that's you know, side quest complete back to this I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about. So the name itself double tax?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell for the readers who haven't had a

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Speaker 1: chance to listeners who haven't had a chance to read

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Speaker 1: it yet, define double tax and what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I hope the listeners become readers. Ideally they already

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Speaker 2: ordered it while they're listening. Yeah, nice, I.

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Speaker 1: Heard those like to change.

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Speaker 2: Period.

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Speaker 3: So the double tax is the compounded cost of racism

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Speaker 3: and sexism. And because I'm talking to a lot of

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Speaker 3: black women right now, it's misogynoire quantified. That's the way

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Speaker 3: you can think about it, right, And so what I

431
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Speaker 3: argue in the book is that like women of color.

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Speaker 2: Basically experience varying degrees.

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Speaker 3: Of the double tax honestly as it relates to like

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Speaker 3: their proximity to black women. So for example, let's say

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Speaker 3: we're talking about a Southeast Asian woman. You know, her

436
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 3: hair is fine, but her skin is right, and so

437
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: she might experience different experiences with respect to like colorism

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00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 3: that actually are more kin to what black women experience

439
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 3: as compared to white women.

440
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 2: Right. So the idea here is that these costs that.

441
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 3: Women of color especially are facing, ultimately are at the

442
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 3: individual level. It's like the day to day you're just

443
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 3: trying to survive, and you're dealing with racism, and you're

444
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 3: dealing with sexism and at times classism and other isms. Right,

445
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 3: But these costs that you're dealing with, if they go unaddressed,

446
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 3: become bigger problems for society down the line.

447
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 2: And down the line.

448
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 3: Could be as soon as tomorrow, or it could be

449
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 3: like five years down the line. Let me give you guys,

450
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 3: maybe like a very clear example of what's taking place

451
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 3: as we are talking right now at the time of this,

452
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 3: which is like September second. So my mentor and dear friend,

453
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 3: Governor Lisa Cook, is currently being targeted by the President

454
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 3: of the United States.

455
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 2: Right. The goal is to get her out of bed,

456
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: that's the goal. They don't want her there anymore.

457
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 3: Her position I believe goes till twenty thirty eight, might

458
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 3: go till twenty thirty five, but it's a long, decade

459
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 3: long position that she's supposed to be holding. Let me

460
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 3: give you, guys, maybe a quick overview of what the

461
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 3: FED does. So the FED is the Federal Reserve System,

462
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 3: and within the Federal Reserve System is the Federal Reserve

463
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: Board of Governors. So they are the people who kind

464
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 3: of are in charge of managing all the economists that

465
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 3: manage the economy.

466
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: These are the people who set interest rates.

467
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 3: Interest rates ultimately are going to inform whether or not

468
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 3: you can borrow money for a house, or whether or

469
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 3: not when you go to Costco tomorrow, the groceries on

470
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 3: the shelves are going to be higher or lower.

471
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 2: Okay, So that's essentially what their function is.

472
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 3: You don't want that body to be influenced by political

473
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 3: whims at all, because you want the data to be

474
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 3: the one informing that.

475
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 2: Here's how that's related to the double tax.

476
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 3: Right now, Governor Lisa Cook is the first person to

477
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 3: be targeted, or maybe the second after Jerom Powell, but

478
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 3: first person amongst the Board of Governors to be targeted,

479
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 3: and a lot of people are wondering, like, like, why

480
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 3: is she being targeted. She's a black woman, that's clear, right,

481
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 3: So she's facing the double tax of racism and sexism, right,

482
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 3: and that's an individual cost that she's sort of bearing.

483
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 3: The issue here is if this cost goes unaddressed, if

484
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 3: they allow this racism and sexism to slide, the societal

485
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 3: cost is that this man is about the man who's

486
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 3: breaking everything is going to put somebody in her position

487
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: that will break the economy, and that directly affects you.

488
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 3: It directly affects the white guy who's living down the street.

489
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 3: It directly affects the Latina mother who is just trying

490
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 3: to make it by.

491
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 2: It affects everybody.

492
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 3: So this individual cost of racism and sexism that seems like, oh,

493
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 3: you know, it's just bigotry.

494
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: Whatever.

495
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 3: If it goes unaddressed, everybody loses. And that's the point

496
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: of the double tax. You want to make sure that

497
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 3: you're addressing the racism and sexism when you see it

498
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 3: so that these other, you know, consequences don't have to

499
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 3: be fully realized by everybody else.

500
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this was such a for me. I

501
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: mean I live in New York and I you know,

502
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: we have Leticia James here. Yeah, and we've seen her

503
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: for the very in a similar This is like a

504
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: playbook that you know, Trump and his lackeys have used

505
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: before on Tis James, you know, trying to dig into

506
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: mortgage lending records to find some sort of some sort

507
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: of smoking gun and then use it to take them down.

508
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: But you know, Lisa on a personal level, you said

509
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: she was your mentor. Yeah, how is she doing? Like,

510
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 1: have you had a chance to talk to her about

511
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 1: all this?

512
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 3: I haven't had a chance to like really have a

513
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 3: full conversation with her. The last time we spoke, she said,

514
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: just girl, pray for me. That what she basically said.

515
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 3: And you know the thing about Governor Cook is she's

516
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: a fighter. This is someone who desegregated schools, has the

517
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 3: scars to prove it. This is not her first rodeo.

518
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: I have full faith that you know, she will be

519
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 3: proven innocent and that she will continue to serve out

520
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: her role. But this is, as Tony Morrison said, a distraction.

521
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 2: Right.

522
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: We should be focused on economic policies that are lifting

523
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 3: people who are losing jobs right now, who are facing

524
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 3: you know, cuts in the workforce and it's affecting their

525
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: income and their financial stability. Instead, we're talking about this

526
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 3: man attacking a black woman because he doesn't like black

527
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 3: women in power, even though that black woman is serving

528
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: the American people.

529
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: And I mean, also, you can look at the Department

530
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: of Labor Economists. That was a white woman, I believe,

531
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: actually I don't know her race, but no, it was

532
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: a woman who he fired to me because he did

533
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: not like the data that you know, they were issuing.

534
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: And that to me was really like bone chilling. I

535
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: think because of my backgrounds a journalist, is like, those

536
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: are the most trusted sources of data that we have,

537
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: you know, I can trust go to the I go

538
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: to that yanky barely like HTML website through the beer

539
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 1: of Labor Statistics, and I'm just like, oh, this is

540
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: the good stuff because it looks like it's from like

541
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five. You know, like these these people work

542
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: hard to be like the most driest, least exciting, you know,

543
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: just like you know, because you said I have to

544
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 1: come on the no, but I mean, like just give

545
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: us straight facts, and it's really terrifying. And now you know,

546
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: you're seeing these additional personal vendettas be played out, and well,

547
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: I'll be praying for Lisa. I mean more than praying.

548
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: I think, like, you know, you have your hashtag on

549
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: your IG right now, hashtag or do I stand with

550
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: doctor Lisa Cook?

551
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 2: We stand with doctor Lisa Cook.

552
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 3: I know that that is sort of like the win

553
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: with Black Women initiative that's also been championing.

554
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: It, you know, Okay, Oh is that where it's okay?

555
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 3: So I think for me, my small small potatoes responsibility

556
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: is to if I've given the opportunity to to remind

557
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 3: people who Governor Cook is like as a character, Like

558
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: I'd like you know her character and who she is

559
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 3: and how she shows up for people. I don't think

560
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: you understand like how big of an impact she's had

561
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: on the economics profession, which is why over five hundred,

562
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: five hundred economists have signed an open letter in support

563
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: of her. She's been an extremely important pillar to the space.

564
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: And so these attacks are unpresidented, unnecessary, and hopefully they

565
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 3: will be they will be also unfounded as well.

566
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well this definitely comes up because I mean, Lisa

567
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: was a figure of your book. You talk about her

568
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: in the chapter you kind of each chapter kind of

569
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: goes through an example of a double tax. So you

570
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: have chapters on you start off with good hair, so

571
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: we talk about the double tacks of you know, the

572
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: cost of having these gorgeous crowns on our head. And

573
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: one of some of my favorite chapters because I'm biased,

574
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: because I do a lot of negotiation coaching, and that's

575
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: my bag. I love it is. Helping is like give

576
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: tools and an actual rule, a rule book, and a

577
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: playbook you can use to negotiate. So you talk about

578
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: resume whitening, and you know, I know we were joking

579
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: about that with our names, and how like I wonder

580
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: now I added dash hyphen santos to my name when

581
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 1: I got married, and I'm like, huh, that kind of

582
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: un whitewash. Is my name a little like Andandy Woodruff?

583
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: Oh serious, Dandy would have santos.

584
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: And for those who don't know what resume whitening is, essentially,

585
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: it's this idea that you strip parts of your racial

586
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 3: identity on your resume to hopefully increase your chances of

587
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: a callback. And what I say in the book, what

588
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: Mandy's essentially alluding to is that there's arkably good reason

589
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: to do that. Like I'm not saying that you should,

590
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: but we have one would understand, right, We have evidence

591
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 3: from all the way from the nineteen seventies basically saying

592
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: that there's never been a time when white folks were

593
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,239
Speaker 3: called back less than black folks, Like black folks are

594
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: always called back less.

595
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: Right, and so like, just off your name, even if.

596
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: You have the same type of credentials as a white

597
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 3: person and you actually are. One of the craziest things

598
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: that I learned from the Resume White Name chapter is

599
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: that like, even if a black verson is like super qualified,

600
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 3: you still fear worser than a white person.

601
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: Who's not qualified at all.

602
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 3: Like the whiteness is actually a superpower in some sense.

603
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: It allows for like people to just kind of blindly

604
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 3: say this person's more competent than this person, even if

605
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: the facts are not indicating that.

606
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: Hey, ba fam, we got to take a quick break,

607
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: pay some bills, and we'll be right back. And you

608
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: go on to talk about, you know, in your chapter

609
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: Dollars and Cents, the whole pay inequity story storyline and

610
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: reality that has just been by this point, it's like,

611
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: godn what's gonna happen? But I was thinking about broken

612
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: rungs when you were talking about Lisa, because I think

613
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: that's such a great example. I mean, it's a heartbreaking

614
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: example of a woman who has done everything right and

615
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: is so fucking accomplished, and still it's like it's it

616
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: wasn't that she reached a broken rung. It's like the

617
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: wrung was broken underneath her foot. You know, they just

618
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: literally took a sledgehammer. I wonder in your career, because

619
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: you've we didn't really finish the other part of your

620
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: career trajectory. That's fine, that happens. BA fam knows how

621
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: to go on and ride with me.

622
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: I love it.

623
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: But you know, you haven't had a ton of time

624
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: in corporate But I wonder, throughout your academic career and

625
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: corporate career have you found a broken wrung for yourself yet?

626
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: Has there been a time where you felt like you

627
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: were kicked off or you know, lost an opportunity because

628
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: of who you are and what you represent.

629
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting.

630
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: I've actually never shared this publicly before, but I think

631
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 3: that my early advocacy in the economics profession might have

632
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: affected whether or not I got into servein PhD programs.

633
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: Oh well, you did say, Harvard was the only one too.

634
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: It was the only one. And the reason I say, like,

635
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: when you say.

636
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: Your early advocacy, do you mean like you're I know,

637
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: I know you from IG first.

638
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: So I foind an organization called the State Collective.

639
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: Oh right, the Staty collect Okay, talk.

640
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: About that, yeah, right right, And so that organization was

641
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: geared towards black women and girls, still very much, but

642
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: I know it now serves minorities more broadly.

643
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: But like, you know, I think a lot of people

644
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: thought I was going to do that for the rest

645
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: of my life.

646
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 3: Actually, it was interesting when I announced that I'm going

647
00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: to do this PhD.

648
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: I think a lo lot of people were kind of

649
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: taken off guard.

650
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: But what was interesting was I just remember there were

651
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 3: certain programs I was like, you know, I think I'm

652
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 3: going to be a shoe, and.

653
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: Like, I know the type of people who applied.

654
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: That kind of thing, and I felt like, okay, why

655
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: didn't I get in? And like I remember having a

656
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: conversation with the older black women in.

657
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: The space, and she was like, I think that these.

658
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: Folks are kind of punishing you a little bit for

659
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 3: the sort of space that you occupy within the profession

660
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 3: right now. At that time, I was like, I want

661
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: to say, like twenty four twenty five, but you know,

662
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: twenty four to twenty five with a platform.

663
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: And so it's almost like it's like twenty ish or

664
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: what yeh, twenty twenty.

665
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 3: Ish is when I was applying, and so people, I

666
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: think people might have felt some type of way.

667
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just like speculating.

668
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: I would say also that like, even my decision to

669
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: just like become an economist was a bit of a

670
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 3: broken rung that I experienced, right there were people who

671
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: were actively trying to make it harder for me to advance.

672
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: And you know, one thing that I allude to in

673
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: the conversation with or like the the part of the

674
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 3: story about Governor Cook is that she dealt with a

675
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 3: lot of naysayers when she was rising into her current

676
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: position at the FED. Like there were people who wrote

677
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: op eds about how unqualified they thought she was. I

678
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: haven't had people write opeds about me yet, but I

679
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: have dealt with my fair share of trolls and people

680
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 3: who just don't think that I'm qualified to one speak

681
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: on anything and to even be pursuing this in the

682
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: first place. One thing that people don't know about economics

683
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 3: is that it's uniquely non diverse, like uniquely it's uniquely

684
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: non diverse socioeconomically, meaning like a lot of folks come

685
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: from parents who have like high ranking degrees and are

686
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: very rich, and you'll find out that a lot of

687
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 3: economists are children of economists. Like no shade, no t

688
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 3: no shade, but like that's what it is. And then

689
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 3: it's also very white. It's very male, right, so so

690
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: much so that I believe that black women made up

691
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: zero point two eight percent of PhDs.

692
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: Earned by economists in twenty twenty three. Damn, that's worse

693
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: than when.

694
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: Does one sprinkle out the whole the jar radio.

695
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: It's for people, goddamn four people.

696
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: So like, for me, the broken wrong I've dealt with

697
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 3: is really like criticisms and people kind of like seeing,

698
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: you know, all that I am and saying that disqualifies her.

699
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: And so that's why in the resume writing chapter, I

700
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: really went in and talked about how you have these

701
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: merit warriors, people.

702
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: Who are like, you know, we gotta we gotta stick

703
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: to merit.

704
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: But then you find out that daddy is the reason

705
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 3: why they got into the program, and that stuff just

706
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: irks me on.

707
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: A very deeper, like a very deep level, like that

708
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: you you.

709
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 3: Got a leg up, and because you're trying to prove

710
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: to everybody that you're a meritocratic, you're making it harder

711
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: for everybody else to get through.

712
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: And I think that that to me is like, what

713
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: are you doing?

714
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: So? Yeah, Also, conveniently they're passed the point in which

715
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: they be, you know, seeking like admittance to a school

716
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: or for an undrey little position. You know, they're comfortably

717
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: ahead of that already, yes, yeah, and comfortably positioned to

718
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: help their children or their mentees or whoever should they

719
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: run into any merit yeah roadblocks.

720
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also I just want to make sure what's that? Like,

721
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: did it make sense? The broken wrong example that I shared?

722
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: It was yours. It's your personal experience, baby, it always

723
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: makes sense.

724
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: You know.

725
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm getting a little emotional. Well, I just do that lately.

726
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: It's just like this whole summer's been very you know,

727
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: it's been a lot. And I think because I do

728
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: have I was doing really well in my I mean,

729
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: I obviously still have a great career, but the corporate

730
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: side of my career I was really killing it. And

731
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: like when I hit my first broken wrung, it was

732
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: I just never saw it coming. And it was also

733
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: around the twenty twenty time period, and you know what,

734
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm looking at you now and I'm just like, also,

735
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: we're just so damn like sparkly. And it's some rooms

736
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: that I know you're in Anna, like, especially in academia.

737
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: And I know I was making fun of the krusty

738
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: and the dry of which you're so the antithesis of

739
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: like my stereotype of that profession. But I think my

740
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: stereotypes based in you know, some truth, and I just

741
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: know they're so intimidated. They don't know what to do

742
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: with you, and they probably are insecure themselves because like

743
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: you have a whole book, you know, by a top

744
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: five publisher that's already out. How do you have finished

745
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: your your PhD? Like who cares? But like you know,

746
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: you haven't done these like these like steps in the

747
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: maybe the order that some people who've earned it, you know,

748
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: would have done it. And you know you're young, and

749
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: and I think we because we are like rare and

750
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: unique and we have such like obviously with very different

751
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: like backgrounds and upbrings. But I do think to be

752
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: a black woman in America. You just have something about you.

753
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: You just have this like inner light, sparkle shine that

754
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: if it is an unnointed or unlike insecure person or

755
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: someone who doesn't know how to feel the warmth of

756
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: that sun, like they act out of like they just

757
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: they don't know how to act. And often it's attack,

758
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's like we don't understand this, we have

759
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: to get rid of it. Yeah, And so that those

760
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: feelings are just coming up for me, it's like I'm

761
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: extremely just like feeling a lot of compassion for you,

762
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: and I also like protect her, like, oh, get to her,

763
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: because we need you in this field.

764
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: Listen.

765
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 3: I feel so touched by those words. Thank you, so

766
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: like my heart is bursting. Thank you so much for

767
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 3: those kind words. Truly, it's hard, you know, I'm not

768
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 3: gonna lie. There's times when it's a bit isolated, you know.

769
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: Thankfully I have a great community I feel like of

770
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 3: women of color, especially black women, who I think have

771
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: just really kind of surrounded me and kind of guided

772
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 3: me through. I'm not gonna lie, like if I'm having

773
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: some nuance here. There's a generational difference here too. You

774
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: mentioned that I'm young, so for those who don't know,

775
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: I'm twenty nine years old, but when I started this work,

776
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: I was like in my early twenties.

777
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: Twelve.

778
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: Twelve, ah, how we especially right? I was twelve in

779
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: like adult years.

780
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 3: So I feel like people a lot of people are like,

781
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: she hasn't earned her stripes yet? Why is she be

782
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 3: interviewed by MPR? Why is she going on Marketplace? It

783
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: was a lot of like who do you think you are?

784
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 2: And how you know? And it's interesting.

785
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 3: I had one of my favorite professors, like in professor friends,

786
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: is doctor Travon Logan. I highly recommend that y'all check.

787
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: Out his work.

788
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 3: He's done a lot of really cool work on white

789
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: women and slavers and you know a lot of people.

790
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: Didn't slave people. That's not true, so he's done some.

791
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: Really great research on it. It's been featured in the Times,

792
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: So I highly highly recommend. But he said something to me.

793
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: He said two things to me that really I think

794
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: has kind of kept me going. The first thing he

795
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: said to me back in I think I would say twenty.

796
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 2: Nineteen was he said, and you need to.

797
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 3: Show up in these spaces as yourself, because if you don't,

798
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: and you reveal who you are.

799
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: They're going to be shocked, right, and they're gonna and so.

800
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 3: You if you show up as yourself, you are ready

801
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: filter who's willing to deal with that and who's willing

802
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 3: to be you know, in your corner.

803
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: Level was excellent advice, right, excellent advice.

804
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: And then the second thing he said to me, it

805
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: was about two or three years ago, he said, someone like,

806
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: you know what's interesting about you?

807
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: Anna?

808
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people are really shocked that

809
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 3: you're still here. That is what people are upset by.

810
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 3: They're upset by your longevity. And I think that that

811
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: is a duniversal truth for black women, especially young black

812
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 3: women who are coming up, that like we are still present,

813
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 3: Like we're here despite the obstacles, despite the challenges, despite

814
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 3: people doubting us.

815
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 2: We show up and we.

816
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: Show for ourselves and we show up our communit and

817
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: it ends up again like this lifeline that we're throwing

818
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: ourselves ends up actually saving everybody else, right. And I

819
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 3: think that there's people who can't really understand how we

820
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: sort of survived that pressure, because if it were them,

821
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 3: they would break, right. And so I think that to

822
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 3: me has been the most encouraging thing. And I would

823
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 3: also say, just as as a quick aside, knowing that

824
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 3: I could do something that could make my nieces lives

825
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: a little bit better. My nieces are all under the

826
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 3: age of eighteen. One of my nieces about to go

827
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 3: to college. Her and I are doing college visits.

828
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: It's fall.

829
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,399
Speaker 3: I'm super excited. And then my other nieces are under

830
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: the age of five.

831
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: Like, even though you change your major seventeen times.

832
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: Listen, I did. I changed my major seventeen times. I'm

833
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: not giving your advice on that.

834
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: But that's why I love that. I cracked. I laughed

835
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: so hard when he wrote that. I'm like, let a

836
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: woman change her mind.

837
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 3: My parents said please graduate, please, and thank you, Like

838
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 3: we're trying to like get through this, right, But what

839
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 3: I'll say is that, like, oh.

840
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: Your nieces. You were saying you want to support your

841
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: nieces and make sure that it's easier for them. Yeah.

842
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: Right.

843
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 3: If I could prevent racism and sexism just even one

844
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: iota for them, it's worth it. It's worth it for me.

845
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 3: I see like the next generation. I see gen Z

846
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 3: and I'm looking at them and I see genofla Very

847
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: good video editors, by the way, don't sleep on their skills,

848
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: very good video editors. I feel like people are sleeping

849
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: on them. They're really good anyway. They give me so

850
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 3: much hope, Like I just I want the best for

851
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: them so badly. And if that means that I have

852
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: to study racism and sexism so they don't have to,

853
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: it's worth it. It's worth it for me, and so that

854
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: to me is like the fuel that keeps me going,

855
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 3: knowing that the next generation could be even a little

856
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 3: bit better off if I try my hardest at this

857
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 3: current time.

858
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and just you being there. Imagine if one

859
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: day a young woman, you know, maybe she was born

860
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: in Ghana for three seconds, who knows, but like a

861
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: woman opens the door to her act advisor's office and

862
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: your faces, what's there? Can you imagine? Like how different?

863
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: And then you get yeah, And I mean I'm not

864
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: saying you have to stay in academia, there could be,

865
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: but to be able to mentor into like two at

866
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 1: least you know you're going into the world and you're

867
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: not going to be the person to question someone's ambition

868
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: or you know, did you plagiarize this right? Did you

869
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: want to do mathematics?

870
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: Listen?

871
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: Yeah?

872
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: To add to that, I had like a brief experience

873
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 3: with that already, so I had the opportunity to teach

874
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: last semester. I was teaching the economics and social policy

875
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: alongside the professor who actually like runs the course.

876
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: Okay, professor were out here, Yeah, we're getting there.

877
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 3: But I remember, you know, first day of class, I

878
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: was sitting there and you know, Professor Shepherd introduces me.

879
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 3: He says, oh, by the way, my teaching fellow is

880
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: Anna Gifty and he points to me. And I noticed

881
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 3: that all the black folks, especially the black women in

882
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 3: the class, like it was like maybe six or seven

883
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 3: of them, they all their faces like and then where

884
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: as they come after and they come to me and

885
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 3: they say, we're just so happy that you're RTF and like,

886
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 3: I don't.

887
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: Know, like that was just like really emotional, like like

888
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 4: I don't know, like I understand because I've been in

889
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 4: those spaces where I'm the only and I don't have

890
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 4: any reminders that like I'm smart and I'm intelligent, because

891
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 4: it's not people who look like me that are in

892
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 4: the space, which is why, by the way, Governor Cook

893
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 4: is so important to me.

894
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: Like she's like someone who really kind of showed me like, oh,

895
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: I can be at that level. I can do the

896
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: things that she does. That's not beyond the realm of possibility.

897
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: So now being that for my peers, right, or being

898
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: that for folks who are younger than me, Like, there's

899
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 3: something so fulfilling about that, Like I don't know, like

900
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 3: it's it touches the depths of.

901
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: My soul to have that kind of impact.

902
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 3: And again, I just think it's worth it regardless of

903
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 3: what you go through, Like ideally you don't go through

904
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: as much harm and as much pain, but like if

905
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 3: you need to just weather the storm just so that

906
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 3: you can see the sum the other side, Like, to me,

907
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: that's worth it.

908
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think it probably helps. Like you

909
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: have Lisa in front of you, and you have your heroes,

910
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: the few, but the few but the rare, right, the

911
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: heroes and economics. I think you mentioned some of them

912
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: in the book. There was a Michelle was it road?

913
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: Oh you're talking about doctor Michelle holder Holder?

914
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: Okay, right? You mentioned her? Is she woman of color?

915
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 2: She is black? She's a black wol's black? Okay?

916
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: Because you mentioned her, and I was like, let me

917
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: write down her name because I've looked at her. I've

918
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: like cited her research before, but I was I almost

919
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: felt like you were low key just through this book itself,

920
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: like you were shining a light on black women researchers

921
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: and like people who are doing who are doing the work.

922
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: And I think that's a beautiful way to just use

923
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: your platform.

924
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 3: Also, I appreciate you read I just I love that

925
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 3: you read it, like because the way the questions we're

926
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 3: asking are just so deep, And I just I really

927
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 3: appreciate you appreciating the book. Yes, I really went out

928
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 3: of my way to make sure that women of color

929
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: in particular were highlighted throughout this book.

930
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 2: I want you to remember their names.

931
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 3: Doctor Michelle Hold pointed the Double Gap, right, which talks

932
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: about sort of the double compounding costs of race and sexism,

933
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 3: racism and sexism in pay.

934
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: And then you know, I featured Governor Lisa.

935
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: Cook, just as Ktanji Brown Jackson is a scholar and

936
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 3: her self a legal scholar.

937
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 2: A doctor. Lord Darrencourt is an.

938
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 3: Economist that has done exceptional work on documenting the evolution

939
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: of the racial wealth gap. There's just so many people

940
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 3: that I want y'all to remember, because I think black

941
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: women's scholars. Oftentimes our contributions are ignored or dismissed. It

942
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 3: took Governor Cook so long to get one of the

943
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 3: most famous papers that she's put out to even be

944
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: considered for publication. And so this is really an attempt

945
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: to kind of correct that wrong, or at least try

946
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: to move things along in the direction so you don't

947
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: forget it. Like our community at least doesn't forget who

948
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: these people are, because these are the folks that you know.

949
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: These are the w Ebat boys, these are the Tony

950
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 3: Morrison's like you should be paying attention to them.

951
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: Don't let the number scare you.

952
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 3: These folks are well versed in explaining those members as

953
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 3: clearly as possible, and I really want to make sure

954
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: that you knew who they were.

955
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: Oh. I think that's wonderful. Oh there's so much to

956
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: talk about. Heyba, fam, we got to take a quick break,

957
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: pay some bills and we'll be right back. I you know,

958
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: I don't know there was this there's this like stat

959
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: or that you you mentioned in the book. At a

960
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: certain point, you're like a study was done on like

961
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: a new class of incoming freshman college students, I think,

962
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 1: or a master's students or something like what a difference

963
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: it could make in terms of their interest in STEM fields,

964
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: just in like changing the welcome letter to explain, here's

965
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: how you can take advantage of these resources or whatever

966
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: I want to know, like for you having you know

967
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: you're getting your PhD? Is it in public policy and

968
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: you cannot all.

969
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: The concentration in economics?

970
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 4: Yes?

971
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: So what's your welcome letter to any brown ambition women

972
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: who are listening who maybe don't know what that career

973
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: path is like? Or like what why would I get

974
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: a PhD? Is in a ton of student loans? Like

975
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: where do I go to find out more about that

976
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: career path? What would you say in your like little

977
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: welcome letter?

978
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: I love this question so much. Oh my gosh. So

979
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: first and foremost, my PhD is free all they pay me?

980
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: Okay, what's code?

981
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: Listen?

982
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 3: So a lot of these sort of social science STEM

983
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 3: PhDs like things that like are at that level.

984
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: Usually they're paid for.

985
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 3: I think it's only really clinical psychology and like some

986
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 3: of the more what is it practitioner based doctorates that

987
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 3: you usually have to pay for, but PhDs by and

988
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 3: large are free ideally the government like the National Science

989
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 3: Foundation would be helping to fund your education. Right now,

990
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 3: they acting a little funky, but like in a perfect

991
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 3: world that would be the case. What we're starting to

992
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: see is a lot of private foundations are starting to

993
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 3: fill that gap. So I don't think you should be

994
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: deterred from the path if that's what you want to do.

995
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: I know, black women, we love, we love collect.

996
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: A degree for sure, for sure, and for good reason,

997
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 3: because the way that we are valued in the labor market,

998
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 3: those degrees ensure or at least suggest that we are

999
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 3: qualified for the jobs that we're doing. Right, and so

1000
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 3: I'm always baffled by how many credentials black women have

1001
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: to have and the kind of credentials other folks are

1002
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 3: required to have.

1003
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: It's where it's usually like giving us the benefit of

1004
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: the doubt.

1005
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: Nobody, and so like, these degrees actually help signal that

1006
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 3: in terms of why policy and economics might be a

1007
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: worthwhile thing to pursue. I know, you see what's going

1008
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: on in the news, babes.

1009
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

1010
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 3: I think, regardless of what's taking place in terms of

1011
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 3: the unraveling of our government, this is going to come

1012
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 3: to an end at some point, and we need people

1013
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: who know how to rebuild. And so that is my

1014
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 3: plea for anybody who's interested in policy and economics. We

1015
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: need folks who are skilled, who have contexts, who have

1016
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 3: expertise to understand how we reimagine the current society that

1017
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 3: we're living in. And so for me, I can tell

1018
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 3: you what my dissertation focuses on. I study policy and economics.

1019
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: So people might think, oh, Anna, you talk about the

1020
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 3: stock market. I don't know nothing about the stock market

1021
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: at all. What I do, though, is I run experiments

1022
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: or try to design interventions to make.

1023
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 2: It really really hard for your boss to be racist.

1024
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 3: That's what I do, right, And so the beautiful thing

1025
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 3: about policy and economics is that if you have a

1026
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 3: social issue that you care about and you want to

1027
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 3: go ahead and tackle it through data or through and.

1028
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: Data can be qualitative, can be quantitative, right.

1029
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 3: The way to do that is to potentially pursue a

1030
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 3: research degree where you get to ask those questions, you're

1031
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 3: empowered to ask those questions, and you come up with answers.

1032
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like you're a detective in some ways.

1033
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 3: You got a mission that.

1034
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: You got to go on.

1035
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: You got to go look for clues and figure out

1036
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: how to solve that mission. And then once you solve it,

1037
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 3: you just tell people here, here's how I did it right,

1038
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 3: and you tell the world. So if folks want to

1039
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 3: do it themselves, or they want to tweak it, or

1040
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 3: they want to improve upon it. And so what I

1041
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 3: love about the PhD and what I'm doing right now,

1042
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: is that it's really a knowledge sharing process. At its core,

1043
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: we're just sharing information with one another so that we

1044
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: can make the world a better place. I think, on

1045
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 3: my end, though, I take it a little bit further.

1046
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 3: I'm taking after you know, doctor Trusten McMillan, Cottam, doctor

1047
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 3: Eve Ewing, Tony Morrison, right, Tony Morrison, Like, there's certain

1048
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 3: people who I think taking a step further. It's not

1049
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 3: just about pursuing those questions, but it's also about sharing

1050
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 3: those answers that we find with you.

1051
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: Right.

1052
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 3: I think the public is really important in this sort

1053
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 3: of knowledge sharing process. And shout out to doctor Raquel Martin,

1054
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 3: who's really talked about this. But it's like as a

1055
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 3: public scholars, I know she's so great as an aspiring

1056
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,879
Speaker 3: public scholar. That is actually why this book exists. So

1057
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 3: I'm well aware that at Harvard, we get access to

1058
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 3: life like every article, you could possibly imagine, every book.

1059
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 3: But as an everyday person, you may not get that.

1060
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 3: You may run into a paywall. You may have to

1061
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 3: subscribe to it.

1062
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: Actly, Yeah, let me borrow your let me get your

1063
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: log in real quick.

1064
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: I got you for the HBr, but you didn't hear

1065
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: me say that. You didn't hear me.

1066
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 3: Sorry, But ultimately this is really about like there's information

1067
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: that's like behind these paywalls, like y'all not seeing. I'm

1068
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 3: gonna go ahead and put it right in front of

1069
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: you so you can make the best informed decision for

1070
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 3: your life.

1071
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: I love that. That was a perfect welcome email. I

1072
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: have some follow ups because of course I do yes,

1073
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: and because I am the negotiation girly, I'm gonna I'm

1074
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: gonna tie it back into the book and the chapter

1075
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: where you talk about obviously we know about the pay gap.

1076
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 1: You also talk about some of the ways that we're

1077
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: held behind at the negotiating table, just in terms of

1078
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: like pay transparency in general. Now, your academic career is

1079
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: one thing you talk about your very first experienced negotiating

1080
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: in the private sector. And I felt a little bit

1081
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: like I wanted more details. If I was your editor,

1082
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: I'd have been like, no, double click there, what are

1083
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: we going to learn? Because this is what you this

1084
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: is what you wrote about negotiating or like getting your

1085
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: first like private I think private sector salary, you said,

1086
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: And this is when you're on the phone with the recruiter.

1087
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: When she began describing the role. I nearly jumped through

1088
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: the phone. The job was amazing, dot dot dot, And

1089
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: finally she transitioned into the conversation. I was itching to

1090
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: have money. I would like to share with you how

1091
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: much we are excited to offer you for the role,

1092
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 1: she said. I inhaled. She stated the offer. I exhaled

1093
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: and then chuckled a little louder than I should have.

1094
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 2: What were you laughing about? What was funny? Was it funny?

1095
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 1: Good?

1096
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: Or funny? That number one? Embarison?

1097
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 3: I said, Okay, I know, let me clean my ears

1098
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 3: out a little bit.

1099
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 2: Let me see if like, can you repeat yourself?

1100
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 3: So I actually did double click on this story in

1101
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 3: earlier drafts, but I made an execut a decision to

1102
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 3: like allow conversations like these to really draw it out,

1103
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 3: because I was like, you know, we're not trying to

1104
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: bring some problems, but I can be honest on here

1105
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 3: and share a little bit more about that story. So

1106
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 3: you know, this is twenty twenty. You know everybody was

1107
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 3: listening to that Imagine video.

1108
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: Horrible video.

1109
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: By the way, they should have given me your least

1110
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: favorite celebrity.

1111
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: Was in all put that away.

1112
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 3: But anyway between sort of these like Netflix binges, I

1113
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 3: was applying for jobs. So I applied for jobs in

1114
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 3: policy and in corporate. I had this conversation with this recruiter,

1115
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 3: very nice woman.

1116
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: She was like oh, she was like hyping up the

1117
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 2: I said, whoa four one?

1118
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: Kay?

1119
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 3: You know we got these benefits. Amazing, amazing, amazing. My

1120
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 3: parents were like, we just want you to get some income.

1121
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: I said, I got you, I got you. I'm working

1122
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: on it.

1123
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 3: You know, we're on the phone. She says the number.

1124
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 3: I think it was, like I want to say, it

1125
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 3: was like forty five. I might be lowbol.

1126
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: Job for what kind of firm?

1127
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: This was like a like our early analyst job something

1128
00:51:59,400 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: like that.

1129
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 3: Okay, I said, girl in this academy, and I thought

1130
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 3: it was just odd because I was like, I have

1131
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 3: a math degree, I have an economics mind, I got

1132
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 3: I'm qualified on just that front.

1133
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 2: Then I just spent some time at Harvard.

1134
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 3: I have these skills and manage. Are we not reading

1135
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 3: the full resume?

1136
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 2: Like?

1137
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: What what information are you using and collecting to inform

1138
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 3: this number? And interesting enough, a black woman in that

1139
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 3: organization reached out to me because she knew who I was,

1140
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: and she was like, I heard they offered you enough.

1141
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 3: I said, girl, and she said girl, she said, here's

1142
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 3: what I'm gonna have you do take the number, but

1143
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 3: you're gonna negotiate. And she taught me exactly how to

1144
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 3: negotiate for the number I wanted.

1145
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 2: So here's what happened with the recruiter. That's what I learned.

1146
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: Why did you undouble click this?

1147
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: And this is what I don't know?

1148
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 2: I was like, girl, I don't know, I want to,

1149
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: but this is how.

1150
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: This is how you negotiate people. Hope you're listening. It's

1151
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: not about it's not about like you know, go into

1152
00:52:58,760 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: your story. Go ahead, do you tell.

1153
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 3: Me you know what your gory to say is exactly right.

1154
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: It's not just about you asking for more. It's about

1155
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 3: leveraging your network stabes and making sure that people are

1156
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 3: double clicking. Inside the organization, a lot of folks don't

1157
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 3: realize this, but this is what sociologists Devin Patrit and

1158
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 3: her co author have found. Black and white folks we

1159
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 3: got the same access to networks. It's how those networks

1160
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 3: manifest for us to get opportunities. For white folks, they're

1161
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: double clicking within the organization a lot of times because

1162
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 3: they have folks in the organization that have the jobs

1163
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 3: that you might want or are related to the jobs

1164
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 3: that you might want. With black folks, because we have

1165
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: less opportunity, it's a lot harder for us to really

1166
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 3: use those job networks to our benefit. So this is

1167
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 3: an example of me being a black woman and talking

1168
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 3: to another black woman in the organization who basically said,

1169
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 3: the recruiter's not really the person setting the number. It's

1170
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,959
Speaker 3: the next person you're about to talk to, and that's

1171
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 3: who you should negotiate with. She said, take the row,

1172
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 3: but let them know you're willing to negotiate a higher thing. Literally,

1173
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 3: here's how it goes. She had the phone call me.

1174
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: I said, I'm interested in the role. I'll take the role,

1175
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 3: but I want to talk to whomever I kid you not.

1176
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 3: Two three days later, the lady who's her boss, I

1177
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 3: think her boss's boss was like, hey, we're so excited

1178
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 3: to have you.

1179
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: We heard you didn't like the number, and I said,

1180
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 2: I didn't.

1181
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 3: I don't think it's actually going to compensate me for

1182
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: the skills that I'm braining the table.

1183
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 2: She says, what number would make you happy?

1184
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: Crowd?

1185
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 3: I probably should have put this in the book, And

1186
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 3: I said, what number will make me?

1187
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be not I it's fine because you're

1188
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: saying it now, keep going. I'm riding dated breath. I

1189
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: am so I'm so dialed in. Okay, what I would ahead?

1190
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: And I said, I would like twenty thousand dollars more.

1191
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: I was gonna go seventy five, but I'm fine.

1192
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 2: I was young at the time.

1193
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 3: I would have I should have done thirty twenty thousand

1194
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 3: dollars more. She says, I'm not sure if that's like

1195
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 3: than our budget.

1196
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 2: I said, this is a bank.

1197
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: His name is a Goldman, the JP some of them, right.

1198
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 2: I was like, I like this bank. It's a great

1199
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:09,919
Speaker 2: place to work.

1200
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,479
Speaker 1: But I was banks, I'm trying to let you finish,

1201
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: and then and then all ran you're curious.

1202
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: You can really look at my linthdin.

1203
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: But this is a bank like you guys, there's literally

1204
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 3: money in the vault, right, you know what I'm saying,

1205
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 3: Just pull something anyway. So she says, okay, let me

1206
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 3: think about it. I'll get back to you. Twenty four

1207
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 3: hours later, she.

1208
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 2: Says, we can do it. We're going to give you.

1209
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 3: Sixty thousand dollars with a five thousand dollars signing bonus.

1210
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 3: And I said, got it. And guess who followed up?

1211
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 3: The black women?

1212
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: She said, I heard you got the number, and I said,

1213
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 2: you a real one. You a real one for that?

1214
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: She said, I told them.

1215
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 3: I told them, if they don't hire you, that's a mistake.

1216
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 2: Damn. I should have could include this in the book.

1217
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so mad, you know, because God, that shit

1218
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: pisses me off because you know, I was in corporate.

1219
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 1: I was a hiring manager. It's no reason why they

1220
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 1: should low b you to that extent, like twenty whole

1221
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. You were trying to get away with and

1222
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: for what you know, and they were playing in your

1223
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: face because they know you're coming from academia, you're a

1224
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:12,439
Speaker 1: woman of color. They don't give a shit. You should

1225
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: be grateful, right where a big bank ooh, four one k,

1226
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Get the fuck out of here with

1227
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: forty five k. You're in a major investment bank. You know,

1228
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: this is a shit that pisses me off so much

1229
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: because there was that influencer who went viral like the

1230
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: last week or two forget her name. Now, I'm so sorry, but.

1231
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 2: Amandy, I know you're talking about that. She does the

1232
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: cutting room.

1233
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: Floor, right, So she she was catching shit, catching hell

1234
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: for posting a job for fifty five K for an

1235
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: assistant who was doing you know, normal in my opinion,

1236
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 1: normal assistant things when you're working with a solopreneur small

1237
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: business owner. Like literally, that job is a job that

1238
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: I would post and be like I'd be so proud

1239
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: to be able to offer fifty five K. But she

1240
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: was catching hell, you know, like I think it was

1241
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: the cut put her on the cover of like magazine

1242
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: like to be just to to symbolize un like low

1243
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: wages and how we are underpaying. And I'm like, get

1244
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: the fuck out of here. It's not that that's the issue,

1245
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: Like that's a that's a hard working entrepreneur who's doing

1246
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: her best and still at least she's offering like what

1247
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: I considered to be a decent salary, but corporate quay

1248
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: corporations who are nickel and diming true, like incredibly talented

1249
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: diming gems like yourself. Like, I mean that's the fucking like, yeah,

1250
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: is that's what we should be outraged about your story

1251
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: kisses me off. I'm also very happy for you and

1252
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: like we but that just shows how the game is

1253
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: so fucked up, and like how without someone in the house,

1254
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: where would you have been?

1255
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: You know, I would have been twenty dollars cheaper. You

1256
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying.

1257
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: It's not like a nice to have. It's not like, oh,

1258
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: it'd be nice if you leverage your network, it'd be nice.

1259
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: You know, I coach this all the time. It'd be

1260
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: nice if you, you know, worked on building some relationships.

1261
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: Know what is a fact of survival? Like, yes, do

1262
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: you want to be able to afford child care one day?

1263
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: Go make a friend?

1264
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: Yes, listen that we can even talk about that.

1265
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 3: I will say that, like what I said in that

1266
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 3: chapter to open it up, is anybody who tells you

1267
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: that ten thousand dollars is worth negotiating for has never

1268
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: had to like stretch a dollar. That's not somebody you

1269
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 3: should be taking any financial advice from, because they have

1270
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 3: no idea what your reality is. You see what I'm saying.

1271
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 3: I think people who give financial advice should be like,

1272
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 3: at least to folks who are just like the ninety

1273
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: nine percent, should be rooted in the ninety nine percent experience, right.

1274
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 3: And my advice, based off of the book and based

1275
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 3: off of this conversation is it's not just about asking

1276
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 3: for more, because I'll be honest, what the research shows

1277
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 3: us is that if you're a black person and you

1278
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 3: try to negotiate, they might utilize you. Actually, you actually

1279
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 3: do need enforcements inside of the organization to ensure that

1280
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 3: the request that you're making that's going in go all

1281
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 3: the way through and it doesn't get stopped at somebody's bias.

1282
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 2: Right.

1283
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 3: And so that to me is probably the biggest lesson

1284
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 3: from that chapter that I would suggest, and I would

1285
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 3: say too, if you're like a black woman or a

1286
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 3: woman of color who's in a position of power within

1287
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 3: an organization, please don't do younger women of color, black

1288
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 3: women dirty and not say anything about your experiences like

1289
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 3: it actually hurts you. Because if they raise the bar,

1290
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 3: you can raise the bar you say, well, you're starting

1291
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 3: her off now at twenty thousand dollars more, but when

1292
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 3: I started, you started me at twenty thousand dollars less.

1293
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 2: Can you add twenty thousand dollars? So it's I like.

1294
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 3: To say that, like, don't let the multi generational you know,

1295
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 3: the generational wars fool you guys. We're all on the

1296
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 3: same train. This melanin is acrof of the board, Like

1297
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: they don't.

1298
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 1: Care that woman. How did you guys know each other?

1299
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: The woman who reached out to.

1300
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:56,439
Speaker 2: You funnily enough?

1301
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 3: And I'm this gonna connect something that we talked about

1302
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 3: in the chapter and broken wrungs me and that black

1303
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 3: woman got connected to a white guy, old white man,

1304
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 3: and I think in that I think in the book,

1305
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 3: I mentioned briefly that I wish I kind of double

1306
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,439
Speaker 3: clicked on this too, but hopefully folks will give.

1307
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: The next book is fine, It's fine, Yeah, next book,

1308
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: the follow up.

1309
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 3: But I mentioned that like black women that we spoke

1310
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 3: to and what we've seen in the qualitative research in

1311
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 3: corporate America have said that white men are better allies

1312
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 3: than white.

1313
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: Women, And yeah, I'd add myself to that.

1314
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: Right, This is something that I'm trying.

1315
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: It helps that there's more of them right right, so

1316
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: you are still relaxed apex predators.

1317
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 3: They're a predators, you know. But that man made that connection.

1318
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 3: The only reason I even like was even considered for

1319
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 3: that job. Was called the white guy. And then the

1320
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 3: white guy made the connection with the black women, and

1321
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 3: the black woman was able to double click within But

1322
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 3: you see what.

1323
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:56,479
Speaker 1: I was doing that because she was a black woman.

1324
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: And was he like you should talk to or was

1325
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: that understood?

1326
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 2: I think it was a little bit of that. I

1327
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 2: think it was she's a black woman.

1328
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 3: I think this is somebody you should look up to,

1329
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 3: and also she has a lot of you know, knowledge

1330
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 3: to share. What's funny about that interaction is the way

1331
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 3: I met that white guy. This is why you guys can't,

1332
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 3: you know, neglect any opportunities that you guys got. Him

1333
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 3: and I were just seated at a dinner and I

1334
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 3: was just kind and cracking jokes, That's literally all I

1335
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 3: was doing.

1336
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 2: And he said, you know, I'm on the board.

1337
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 3: Of so and so bank, And I said, ain't done,

1338
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 3: like a really big bank and he was like yeah,

1339
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: And I said, if you ever want to, if you

1340
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 3: ever want a job. This is how these white guys are.

1341
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 3: If you ever want a job, you know, yeah.

1342
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 2: Just hit my line and I did and I got

1343
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 2: a job out of it.

1344
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 3: So, like again, I think the big picture of lessons

1345
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 3: from here is it's not just about asking for more.

1346
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 3: It's about making sure you can double click on networks

1347
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 3: that can really serve your interest and serve the number

1348
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 3: you should.

1349
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: Be asking for.

1350
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 3: When you ask for more, ask for a lot more

1351
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 3: because they're low bothering you. They're devaluing your labor, devaluing

1352
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 3: your skills on the onset. And then the last thing

1353
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 3: I would say is that a lot of us will

1354
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 3: engage in these professional environments where we could talk to

1355
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 3: this or a random white guy.

1356
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: You never know, these random white guys way more connected.

1357
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 3: Than I think anybody because that might be his buddy

1358
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 3: from around the way, might be the CEO of JP Moore.

1359
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 2: You have no idea.

1360
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 3: I'm not saying like, go and seek them out, but

1361
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that if you find yourself in a

1362
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 3: space like that, do not hesitate to introduce yourself.

1363
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 2: You know, just be a kind human. You never know

1364
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 2: what that's gonna result in.

1365
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 3: For me, it resulted in a job which I got

1366
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars more for.

1367
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could double quicks on this. That's fine, we

1368
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 2: got it.

1369
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: I scratched that itch. I had to know. I'm so glad,

1370
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: I asked. I'm like she was she laughing there laughing? Good,

1371
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 1: I can imagine, But I need to know more. Oh well, Anna,

1372
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: I wish we could talk for like another hundred hours. Well,

1373
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: you know you're a friend now, so you've been a

1374
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: friend in my head and my in my in my feed.

1375
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, anything that we can do brand ambition to

1376
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: support obviously, go get the book again. It is called

1377
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: the Double Text by my guest and a gifty opoku ajamen,

1378
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: And you can find that where are we telling them

1379
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: to shot bookshop dot org to just for a.

1380
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 3: Local bookstore, trap your local bookstore, a black owned bookstore,

1381
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 3: a woman owned bookstore. One thing I will suggest is

1382
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 3: that please request copies of The Double Tax at your

1383
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 3: local library. Not everybody to the board to buy the book.

1384
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 3: So if you requested at your local library, it now

1385
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 3: becomes part of your community, so anybody can check it out.

1386
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: Maybe they'll add your book to the syllabus and like

1387
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: some econ.

1388
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: If you're a professor. I think they should.

1389
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: Maybe I would not have barely scratch to be an

1390
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: econ if I had this book.

1391
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 2: Please.

1392
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: All right, you're also going on a little book tour,

1393
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: not little, but you're going on a book tour, right, No, I.

1394
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 2: Didn't get I didn't know I was going to get

1395
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 2: to talk about that. Yes, I am going on a

1396
01:03:58,360 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: seven cities.

1397
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: It's called Brown Ambition. You're supposed to just all the things.

1398
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 1: It's a podcast. It can be as long as we want.

1399
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: You're killing it.

1400
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm super excited to share that I'm going on

1401
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 3: a seven city, seventh state book tour. So we're starting

1402
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 3: off in New York City with Chelsea Clinton, and then

1403
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 3: we're headed to Washington, d C. Where we're gonna be

1404
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 3: talking about black women leadership. We're gonna be going to Boston,

1405
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Atlanta, Chicago, Saint Paul with Tim Waltz's daughter,

1406
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 3: Hope walt I'm super excited conversation, and then La with

1407
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 3: the wonderful doctor Malika Tubbs. We're also being in Chicago.

1408
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: Excuse me, we're gonna be talking with Mickey Kendall. So

1409
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 3: if y'all know the book Feminism on the show The

1410
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 3: Double Taxes like hood Feminism's Little Sisters.

1411
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: So oh that's such a good yes.

1412
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 2: So if you like tod feminism, you're gonna like the

1413
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:51,479
Speaker 2: Double tax a lot. Yeah.

1414
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: I know Mickey loves you because she also is, like.

1415
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 2: She's such good people's yes.

1416
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: Oh okay, amazing. So what's your us the website people

1417
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: can go find out all about that.

1418
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 3: Literally innagifty dot com. So giftise just gout as gift

1419
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 3: with a Y at the end. Everything you needed on there,

1420
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 3: Everything you need.

1421
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 2: Is on there.

1422
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: I'm amazing. All right, we'll put that in the show.

1423
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 1: Notes to BA Fam and a gift to you are

1424
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: a gift. I'm not the first person to make that pun,

1425
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure, but I don't care.

1426
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 2: I beg you are and that means a lot. You

1427
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 2: are a gift as well.

1428
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 3: You can say you're for sharing your platform. And I

1429
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 3: hope that you guys enjoyed our conversation.

1430
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 2: It was so fun.

1431
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: I know they did. If you had a good time,

1432
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: the usually BA fam is right there with us, all right,

1433
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: BA Fam until next time, Thank you so much for listening.

1434
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Anna Gifty. You're gonna go

1435
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: get her book, The Double Text. We're gonna find her

1436
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: on tour. We're gonna do whatever we can to support her.

1437
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: We're gonna also, I think, walk away from this conversation

1438
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: feeling like very seen, very appreciated, and very motivated and

1439
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: inspired to whatever it is. Expect more of yourself to

1440
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 1: keep pushing, to keep pushing, keep surprising them that we're

1441
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: sticking around with our longevity. Like you said, until next

1442
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: time by ba Fam okay va fam. Thank you so

1443
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: much for listening to this week's show. I want to

1444
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: shout out to our production team, Courtney, our editor, Carla,

1445
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 1: our fearless leader for idea to launch productions. I want

1446
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and Cameron McNair

1447
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 1: for helping me put the show together. It is not

1448
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: a one person project, as much as I have tried

1449
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: to make it so these past ten years. I need help, y'all,

1450
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: and thank goodness I've been able to put this team

1451
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: around me to support me on this journey and to

1452
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: y'all bea fam. I love you so so so so much.

1453
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: Please rate, review, subscribe, make sure you sign up to

1454
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: the newsletter to get all the latest updates on upcoming episodes,

1455
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: our ten year anniversary celebrations to come, and until next time,

1456
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: talk to you soon via Buy