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Speaker 1: What kind of a show you guys putting.

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Speaker 2: On here today?

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Speaker 3: You're not interested in art?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: No, look, we're going to do this thing.

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Speaker 5: We're going to have a.

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Speaker 3: Conversation from Chicago. This is Film Spotty celebrating our twentieth year.

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Speaker 3: I'm Josh Larson and.

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Speaker 6: I'm Adam Kempinar.

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Speaker 7: When they lowered my wife into the coffin, I had

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Speaker 7: an intense s urge to get into the bugs with her.

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Speaker 3: We never considered cremation.

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Speaker 6: How dark are you.

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Speaker 3: Willing to go? Well, there's dark and then there's David

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Speaker 3: Cronenberg Dark, which is pretty dark.

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Speaker 2: That's from the Shrouds, the director's latest which puts cameras

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Speaker 2: right in the grave. Our review, plus how about the

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Speaker 2: dark Side? We revisit Star Wars episode three, Revenge of

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Speaker 2: the Sith, which turned twenty and was just back in theaters,

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Speaker 2: and we crown a Film Spotting Madness Champion. It's all

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Speaker 2: had a new Cronenberg and Darth Vader. That's a lot

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Speaker 2: of heavy breathing tershow.

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Speaker 3: On Film Spotty.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Film Spotting. It's official, Josh, we have a

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Speaker 2: winner sixty four films Film Spotting Madness Best of the

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Speaker 2: twenty first century so far down to one. Later in

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Speaker 2: the show, we will have results from the final pairing

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Speaker 2: which pitted PTA's There Will Be Blood against David Lynch's

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Speaker 2: Mulholland Drive. Will also announce the winner of the film

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Speaker 2: Spotting Madness Bracket contest. Spoilers It was not you and

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Speaker 2: it was not me.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, I see no need to talk about it further.

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Speaker 3: Then let's just move along at them.

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Speaker 2: Also later my conversation with film writer Violet Luca about

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Speaker 2: her new book David cronenberg Clinical Trials, and some thoughts

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Speaker 2: about the director's latest The Shrouds, currently out in limited release.

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Speaker 2: You also caught up with the latest from a former

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Speaker 2: Golden Brick nominated director, Joel Petreikis.

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Speaker 3: But first Star Wars episode three, Revenge of the Sith,

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Speaker 3: is back in theaters for its twentieth anniversary. This was

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Speaker 3: the concluding chapter of George Lucas's prequel trilogy, the top

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Speaker 3: grossing film of two thousand and five when it made

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Speaker 3: over three hundred and eighty million dollars. Critically, it was

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Speaker 3: also the best received of the prequels. It got a

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Speaker 3: respectable seventy nine percent fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. That's compared

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Speaker 3: to sixty one percent fresh for episode two and fifty

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Speaker 3: four percent for episode one. All of those for the record,

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Speaker 3: way too low to.

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Speaker 2: My I was just going to say, I'm shocked they're

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Speaker 2: both that high.

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Speaker 3: I did my best, Adam, I did my best.

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Speaker 2: Alas you are one man one critic one ranking on

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Speaker 2: Rotten Tomatoes.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. Did episode one suffer from unrealistically high expectations?

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Speaker 3: Did episode three benefit from unfairly low expectations? Maybe we

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Speaker 3: can get into that a bit, but first, let's play

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Speaker 3: some of the trailer to get everyone caught back up

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Speaker 3: on how Anakin became Darth Vader.

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Speaker 5: Every single Jedi is now an enemy of the Republic.

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Speaker 6: Do what must be done, Do not hesitate, show no mercy.

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Speaker 6: Who could have done this?

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Speaker 3: Twisted by the dark Side, Young Skywalker and be competition.

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Speaker 3: I feel so helpless going back in the time machine, Adam.

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Speaker 3: This tale of Jedi Night Anakin Skywalker's conversion to the

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Speaker 3: Dark Side came to theaters in May two thousand and five,

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Speaker 3: which was just a couple of months after the launch

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Speaker 3: of film Spotting You and then co host Sam Van

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Speaker 3: haggrean now producer, reviewed the film on episode fourteen, so

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Speaker 3: about a thousand shows ago that would be. And I

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Speaker 3: don't know if you had a chance to look back

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Speaker 3: at your notes, but I have some notes here from

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Speaker 3: producer Sam A little sonsis of that two thousand and

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Speaker 3: five review. Apparently, the film's first twenty or so minutes,

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Speaker 3: the first twenty minutes of Sith, which is this prolonged

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Speaker 3: rescue mission featuring Hayden Christensen's Anakin and Ewan McGregor's Obi Wan,

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Speaker 3: didn't sit well with you. You called it horrendous and abysmal,

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Speaker 3: but at some point things got better for you. The

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Speaker 3: fact is you said I loved this film. It sounds

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Speaker 3: like you connected with the stories Shakespearean tragedy. You also

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Speaker 3: described having a nostalgic, kid like reaction to the movie,

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Speaker 3: one that you hadn't in some time. You experienced that

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Speaker 3: tingle that you had watching the original Star Wars chick

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Speaker 3: Out and Good the Empire strikes Back. Basically, according to

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Speaker 3: that five review, syth reinvigorated the franchise for you. And

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Speaker 3: here's the real whopper, this one I was aware of.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of fresh re ratings, Adam kempenar five stars for

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Speaker 3: Revenge of the Sith so you did take the time

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Speaker 3: to rewatch Revenge of the Sith on this occasion of

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Speaker 3: its twentieth anniversary the first time in twenty years as well,

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Speaker 3: I believe. So how are those stars looking now, Adam?

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Speaker 2: You should probably just ignore everything I'm about to say.

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Speaker 2: I just need to commit to the bit right and

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Speaker 2: give it. I don't know, ten stars, fifteen stars.

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Speaker 3: I mean you could, that'd be fun.

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Speaker 2: I will say thank you to now producer Sam for

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Speaker 2: pulling together that recap, because I definitely didn't listen to

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Speaker 2: episode fourteen, nor could I dig up my notes.

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Speaker 6: Two thousand and five.

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Speaker 2: Adam was a little excitable, maybe, Josh a little over

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Speaker 2: eager and hyperbolic, maybe, but he wasn't wrong about the

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Speaker 2: movie as a whole or those specific points that opening

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Speaker 2: rescue mission I'll horrendous and abysmal, though side note twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five Adam would know better than to use two

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Speaker 2: adjectives when one suffices. I don't like the whole quippy, lethal,

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Speaker 2: weapony buddy comedy vibe between Obi Wan and Anakin and

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Speaker 2: Noah doesn't remind me of Han and Luke or the

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Speaker 2: overly chaotic and flimsy CGI spectacle of that opening, both

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Speaker 2: of which lower the stakes significantly, And I get it.

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Speaker 2: This movie isn't otherwise very light and fun. It could

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Speaker 2: be called Revenge of the Stakes. It's so loaded with

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Speaker 2: dramatic conflict and tragic irony, so having an opening that's

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Speaker 2: a little lighter but also intended to establish the rapport

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Speaker 2: and the genuine bond between those two and in the

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Speaker 2: process heightening their tragic arc at the end. It makes sense,

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Speaker 2: but it's not clever or visually thrilling, you know what,

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Speaker 2: though things do get better. Anakin's story is a tragedy

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Speaker 2: of Shakespearean proportions, and I did still have that nostalgic,

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Speaker 2: kid like reaction to it, something I felt maybe during

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Speaker 2: the opening scroll and trumpet blast of the Phantom Menace,

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Speaker 2: and then proceeded not to feel again until Revenge of

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Speaker 2: the Sith. Is it a great Star Wars movie. It's

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Speaker 2: certainly the greatest prequel, And I'm not damning it with

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Speaker 2: faint praise when I say that, because Episode one and

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Speaker 2: Episode two for me were so unsatisfying that it's a

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Speaker 2: testament to the magnitude of Lucas's achievement with episode.

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Speaker 6: Three that it sticks.

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Speaker 2: The landing as effectively as it does, both in terms

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Speaker 2: of the film's actual ending and ultimately delivering on the

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Speaker 2: pardon me new hope we all felt when the prequels

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Speaker 2: were originally announced. Anakin, I'm guessing Josh would be a

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Speaker 2: little put out and petulant to hear that I'm not

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Speaker 2: planning to reissue the movie five stars? But am I

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Speaker 2: giving it four stars? And probably four and a half?

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Speaker 2: Search your feelings, Josh? What do they tell you? And

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Speaker 2: I know I'm the only one who rewatched it for

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Speaker 2: this occasion. This was Sam's idea. Let me see if

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Speaker 2: I have his words right to see if I'd walk

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Speaker 2: back my reaction from twenty years ago. I guess I'm

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Speaker 2: not really. But according to letterbox, you rewatched this movie

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Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen. You watched it again in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Both times you gave it four stars. So we're not

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Speaker 2: going to be duking this out with our lightsabers. You

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Speaker 2: agree this is a good movie.

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Speaker 3: I agree a lot on a lot of this. I

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Speaker 3: agree it's the best of the prequels, though notoriously I

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Speaker 3: am a fan of all three prequels. I think we're

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Speaker 3: in alignment with what about what makes this one particularly good.

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Speaker 3: When I think back on this trilogy, this particular trilogy,

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Speaker 3: if there's something that's lacking for me, and you've touched

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Speaker 3: on it with that opening. Though I do like the opening,

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Speaker 3: I remember the gravity of them flying through that corroscant

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Speaker 3: city scape, feeling that a little bit more, and maybe

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Speaker 3: the effects just don't hold up for that, but I

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Speaker 3: will admit it, it's not the sort of set piece

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Speaker 3: that both Attack of the Clones and to me, Phantom

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Speaker 3: Menace those offered us incredible star wars sustained special effects,

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Speaker 3: action driven, yet narratively rooted set pieces. The pod race

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Speaker 3: will forever be the one I think of from Phantom Menace,

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Speaker 3: and I don't recall getting a lot of that in

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Speaker 3: Revenge of the Sith. There is the fight, obi Wan's

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Speaker 3: fight with General Grievous. Grievous one of the great prequel

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Speaker 3: creations in terms of characters, and I remember that being

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Speaker 3: kind of fun. But yeah, otherwise, this is a movie

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Speaker 3: that sets those things aside to really simmer and root

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Speaker 3: in this dynamic between Obi Wan and Anakin. But more importantly,

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Speaker 3: you know just the depth it took to get to

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Speaker 3: a character like Darth Vader, and I think it learns that.

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Speaker 3: I think this works as and I think the reason

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Speaker 3: most people regard it as the best of the prequels,

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Speaker 3: which I do, is that it is a work of

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Speaker 3: closure for those prequels, but also a work of sustenance

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Speaker 3: from the entire franchise, the way it connects with everything

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Speaker 3: that came before Slash Later. It's doing so with a richness,

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Speaker 3: with a brooding quality that makes it works as this

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Speaker 3: Kapper and this bridge. So so yeah, I did take

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Speaker 3: a look at the original trailer, you know, just to

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Speaker 3: refresh my memory a little bit, and I would be curious.

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Speaker 3: Here's a question I have for you. Here's the things

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Speaker 3: that were going through my mind I would have been

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Speaker 3: looking for if I'd had the time to rewatch it.

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Speaker 3: You touched on the effects a little bit. I was

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Speaker 3: curious how those looked, maybe particularly the climactic lightsaber duel

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Speaker 3: on the lava planet. So I'd like to hear a

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Speaker 3: little bit more about how the effects look and then,

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Speaker 3: which isn't always you know, you can't damn a movie

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Speaker 3: for the time it was made. Just more curious, but

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Speaker 3: also the performances, because you know, Christensen and Natalie Portman

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Speaker 3: both incredible and talented actors we know in other works,

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Speaker 3: not the strongest elements of the prequels, which has much

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Speaker 3: more to do with the scriptwrite writing and the dialogue,

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Speaker 3: but it is connected to what we both appreciated is

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Speaker 3: the fall of Anakin. And so yeah, say a little

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Speaker 3: bit more about what this looks like and what those

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Speaker 3: two maybe sound like.

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Speaker 2: Well, I really like that you use that term brooding

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Speaker 2: because it references the film as a whole and how

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Speaker 2: dark it ultimately gets. But that's matching, of course the

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Speaker 2: arc of Anakin's character. And I do think for as

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Speaker 2: wobbly maybe as Christensen is early on and is with

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Speaker 2: how we handle some of that dialogue. But again, most

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Speaker 2: actors are going to struggle with some of this dialogue.

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Speaker 6: Samuel L.

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Speaker 2: Jackson, Josh has never had an untrue moment on screen

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Speaker 2: in his career otherwise, and there are about five lines

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Speaker 2: in this movie where I just can't believe what's coming

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Speaker 2: out of his mouth. I mean, I literally can't believe it.

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Speaker 2: And I also can't believe that that Samuel L. Jackson

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Speaker 2: the actor can't make it work, even he is incapable

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Speaker 2: with his tremendous skill to make those moments.

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Speaker 6: What they need to be.

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Speaker 2: But the darker this movie gets, the more brooding. Frankly,

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Speaker 2: and this here again isn't fae praise. The less he

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Speaker 2: has to talk, the more he just has to emote,

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Speaker 2: the better Hayden Christensen is.

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Speaker 6: And I think that is.

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Speaker 2: Partly why I am invested in that character.

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Speaker 6: I don't want to hear any more about Obi Wan

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Speaker 6: the Jedi turned against me. Don't you turn against me?

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Speaker 8: I don't know you anymore.

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Speaker 5: Henny, You're breaking my heart.

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Speaker 7: You're going down a pup I can't follow.

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Speaker 2: I think padme the character is still a little bit

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Speaker 2: too much of a porcelain doll here, but there is

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Speaker 2: real conflict in her, and there is real pressure that

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Speaker 2: she unknowingly and unintentionally puts on him that helps lead

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Speaker 2: to all of that conflict within him. So their relationship

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Speaker 2: and their love story, it is an element that works

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Speaker 2: with this movie and here again, aside from some awkward

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Speaker 2: moments here and there, I think Ewan McGregor as Obi

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Speaker 2: Wan Kenobi is effective too. And how about Ian McDermott.

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Speaker 2: He gets his entire section in my notes, the fun,

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Speaker 2: the sheer joy that he is having, the gravitas that

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Speaker 2: he brings to it while also bringing that sense of

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Speaker 2: humor to this character. I think is a wonder the

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Speaker 2: way Josh he turns his head at one point so

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Speaker 2: deliberately and slowly when he as I think, in that

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Speaker 2: booth they're watching that crazy bubble show, whatever that thing is.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and he says.

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Speaker 5: Dark Plaguers, it's a dark Lord of the Sith, so

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Speaker 5: powerful and so wise, he could use the force to

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Speaker 5: influence the Midi Chlorians to create.

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Speaker 6: Life, to create life.

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Speaker 2: And he turns his head and it takes him like

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Speaker 2: five minutes just to turn to the left.

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Speaker 6: It's it's so good.

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Speaker 2: But then when he has to really dig deep and

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Speaker 2: we get that gravelly voice a character as he becomes

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Speaker 2: the Emperor who reminded me of And I googled this

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Speaker 2: and I couldn't find anything, So maybe it's just not there.

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Speaker 2: But I wondered if Lucas was intentionally channeling Friedkin in

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Speaker 2: The Exorcist because of the eyes, the way the eyes

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Speaker 2: change the faces of both Anakin and Palpatine, and that voice,

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Speaker 2: the Mercedes McCambridge like voice that he takes on, that

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Speaker 2: makes that character really more terrifying. But I'll use the

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Speaker 2: word again, but at the same time very fun. So

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Speaker 2: he's he's at the top of the list for sure

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Speaker 2: when it comes to performances as means gone.

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Speaker 4: And all.

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Speaker 5: But my.

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Speaker 3: McDermand cracked the code. He's cracked the Lucas code in

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Speaker 3: terms of performer whatever that alchemy is. And and I

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Speaker 3: think Alecanness has this too managed it as well. Maybe

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Speaker 3: it's just you know, a UK actor.

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Speaker 2: Msality to his ob one, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, less theatricality, but a playfulness that is not

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Speaker 3: undercutting or making fun of the material, right and think

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Speaker 3: of how delicate of a lie that is to dance

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Speaker 3: on where in this film, in particular, if mcderman pushes it,

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Speaker 3: it's almost like a half second more for that head turn,

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Speaker 3: and he would have pushed it into making fun of

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Speaker 3: the moment right and now. And some people may still

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Speaker 3: appreciate it as camp. It's a little bit in the

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Speaker 3: interpretation there, but I think overall that's the key to

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Speaker 3: the performance is he believes what he's saying while still

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Speaker 3: having fun with it and not making fun of it.

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Speaker 3: And if you're able to do that, you can give

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Speaker 3: a good performance in a Star Wars movie. Otherwise, what

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Speaker 3: mostly happens is it's quite clear you don't believe it at.

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Speaker 2: All, and he has to be a puppet master on

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Speaker 2: such a scale that he has to bring that type

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Speaker 2: of theatricality I think, to that character and that sense

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Speaker 2: of charisma, even ultimately in addition to that gravitas that

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Speaker 2: will wait that he brings. You mentioned or ask me

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Speaker 2: about the effects, and I certainly don't think that the

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Speaker 2: effects are something twenty years later that are helping the film.

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Speaker 2: But when you look at the end, I'm caught up

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Speaker 2: enough in the story and what is playing out in

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Speaker 2: the drama between Obi Wan and Anakin, knowing also what's

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Speaker 2: happening with Padme. I'm thinking about the larger story that

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Speaker 2: you referenced of Star Wars itself, this entire Star Wars universe,

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Speaker 2: and how all of this is going to play into it.

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Speaker 2: That those effects didn't deter me or didn't distract me

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Speaker 2: in any way, And in fact, I want to say

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Speaker 2: there is some really inspired filmmaking throughout and including in

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Speaker 2: that end sequence, in particular, Josh, the moment when Padme

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Speaker 2: lands and Anakin sees her ship and starts running towards her.

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Speaker 2: That's a great visual with the lava kind of shooting

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Speaker 2: up in the landscape behind him. Is he starts running

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Speaker 2: towards her and you get the entire scope of the

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Speaker 2: surroundings and his sense of urgency. How about when Yoda

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Speaker 2: is fighting with Dooku and the whole thing is is

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Speaker 2: waning and his cape falls to the ground, and is

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Speaker 2: that's descending? We cut to a shot of obi Wan

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Speaker 2: as he's actually descending. It's it's a match cut. The

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Speaker 2: music that peaks the way it does that Williams score

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Speaker 2: peaking as the lightsabers hit and the first bit of

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Speaker 2: that clash between obi Wan and I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: back to the end sequence here between obi Wan and

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Speaker 2: Anakin with the lava splashing right in perfect sync with him.

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Speaker 2: That is pure spectacle. That is cinema, Josh.

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Speaker 3: And that all speaks to a level of care that

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Speaker 3: we don't always get in major franchise installments, especially this

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Speaker 3: far in And it's connected to my defense of the

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Speaker 3: prequels as a whole, which I've talked about on the

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Speaker 3: show as being examples of a tourist cinema. Now it's

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Speaker 3: popcorn auturism. It's James Cameron Avatar type auturism. But you

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Speaker 3: need someone at the creative helm, like Lucas here still,

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Speaker 3: who has this much investment in these worlds that he's

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Speaker 3: imagined and gathered these massive teams of imagineers to bring

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Speaker 3: it to life alongside him. To put the time and

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Speaker 3: effort and energy and imagination into little details like that,

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Speaker 3: then you get these things that make like the Yoda

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Speaker 3: Douku sparring just have a little more spark and individuality

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Speaker 3: and uniqueness to it. That is I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 3: that one up, because that is an action sequence that

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Speaker 3: I think I would point to as a standout from

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Speaker 3: the prequel series. Is that showdown between them. If I

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Speaker 3: remember right ce in the theater, it was seeing Yoda

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Speaker 3: in action there brought a cheer from the crowd, right sure,

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Speaker 3: partly because of you know, attachment to the character of Yoda,

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Speaker 3: but also the thrill of the filmmaking that you're speaking to.

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Speaker 3: That's that's how you get to connect with an audience

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Speaker 3: on that level. And again, it takes that sort of care,

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Speaker 3: that sort of auturist investment in the story you're telling.

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Speaker 3: It's not just propping it up because you signed on

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Speaker 3: for three of these that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, more examples of that when we have both Padme

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Speaker 2: and Anakin, the cross cutting between them going to medical

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Speaker 2: getting care at the same time care, if that's what

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Speaker 2: you can call what Anakin is getting at the end,

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Speaker 2: the mask descending the Vader mask descending so great then

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Speaker 2: the way Lucas cross cuts between their breathing. Their breathing

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Speaker 2: is in sync with each other as well as hers

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Speaker 2: is dissipating as his is getting even heavier that choir singing.

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Speaker 2: Then as Vader now us sends and we have him

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Speaker 2: fully formed, is that undercut a little bit by the

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Speaker 2: meme moment? And I understand why it is when he

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Speaker 2: yells no, we don't need the know. I wish we

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Speaker 2: didn't get the know, because everything about the physicality of

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Speaker 2: Christiansen or whoever is inside the suit at that moment,

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Speaker 2: and the way that moment has given us that closure,

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Speaker 2: in this case, a very tragic closure, but the way

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Speaker 2: that all culminates. Josh, we don't need the know. I

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Speaker 2: think I feel all that pain sufficiently. It's still a

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Speaker 2: wonderful visual and oral moment with the music. I also

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Speaker 2: love the way as he takes his first steps, something

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Speaker 2: I never really paid attention to before. The way he

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Speaker 2: walks like we're used to seeing a Frankenstein's monster, And yes,

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Speaker 2: that probably has something to do with the fact that

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Speaker 2: he is feeling out this new body, this new mechanical body,

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Speaker 2: and he has just been horribly injured. But I also

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Speaker 2: think Lucas is very intentionally referencing that, and we should

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Speaker 2: be thinking about that, because that's.

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Speaker 6: Really what he is.

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Speaker 2: This whole movie is the process of Palpatine creating this figure,

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Speaker 2: creating the apprentice that he wants, making him in his mold,

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Speaker 2: to his vision. So that invocation of Frankenstein really worked

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Speaker 2: for me there. How about Josh the politics everybody loved,

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Speaker 2: including me, taking shots at Lucas for how burdened the

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Speaker 2: prequels were, with bureaucracy and boring talk of what was it?

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Speaker 2: Trade routes between Star systems justified perhaps, but do we now, oh,

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, do we now owe Lucas amea

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Speaker 2: copa for his political pressience an acute understanding of tyranny. Frankly,

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Speaker 2: I'm shocked I didn't hear the word tariffs like seventeen

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Speaker 2: times in this screenplay. But what I did hear is

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Speaker 2: he didn't inform the Jedi Council. Anakin says that's unusual,

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Speaker 2: isn't it? And Obi Wan says, all of this is unusual,

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Speaker 2: and it's making me feel uneasy. How many times have

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Speaker 2: we said almost exactly those words, those phrases minus Jedi

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Speaker 2: council over the past eight or nine years. I mean

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Speaker 2: that's just the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I'm thinking back to the last time I

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Speaker 3: logged this and looking at it here in letterbox. All

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Speaker 3: I wrote this was twenty eighteen, so you can recall

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Speaker 3: where we were. If Putin is Darth Sidius, then Trump

386
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Speaker 3: is Dooku. And someone recently commented, I forget, I just

387
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Speaker 3: got to comment on this, something like if only like

388
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Speaker 3: it's it's gotten way worse right that. But yes, this

389
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Speaker 3: worked obviously as a political allegory when it came out.

390
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Speaker 3: These are concerns that were in the first three films

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Speaker 3: as well. But yeah, I imagine seeing it again in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, so much of this would pop out

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Speaker 3: at you.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I don't need to underline it, but I am

395
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Speaker 2: going to provide a few more examples of Josh that

396
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Speaker 2: really resonated with me on this viewing, and certainly wouldn't

397
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Speaker 2: have had the impact that they did now back in

398
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Speaker 2: two thousand and five. Obi Wan says, the Senate is

399
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Speaker 2: expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today,

400
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Speaker 2: and Anakin says, well, that can only mean less deliberating

401
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: and more action. We hear phrases like that quite a bit,

402
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Speaker 2: Anakin me, a master, I'm overwhelmed. But the Council elects

403
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Speaker 2: its own members. They will never accept this, Palvatine.

404
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 6: I think they will. You know, old.

405
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Speaker 2: Traditions, the rules, the constitution irrelevant. Padme, what if the

406
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Speaker 2: democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists and

407
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Speaker 2: the Republic has become the very evil we've been fighting

408
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: to destroy? And finally, Palpatine an empire that will continue

409
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: to be ruled by this August body and a sovereign

410
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Speaker 2: ruler chosen for life, gasp, an empire ruled by the majority,

411
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Speaker 2: ruled by a new constitution. And Padney says, so this

412
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Speaker 2: is how liberty dies with thunderous applause. Yeah, Larcas, Now

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Speaker 2: you don't know, maybe you shouldn't, but it is the

414
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Speaker 2: filmmaking fun here. It is the fun that Ian McDermott

415
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 2: is having. It is the development of those stakes. I

416
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Speaker 2: have to give Lucas. Again we deride him for some

417
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Speaker 2: of his plotting for his screenplay in terms of the dialogue,

418
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Speaker 2: but from a storytelling standpoint with this film, I really

419
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Speaker 2: like what you said in terms of it being a

420
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Speaker 2: work of closure, that it earns what it has to

421
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Speaker 2: by the end of this film, and it's sustaining the

422
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Speaker 2: franchise because right from the beginning the way this idea

423
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Speaker 2: of deception is oven end to the story and being

424
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: something that is just subtly eating away at Anakin and

425
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: adding to this trauma. This is still just this boy

426
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Speaker 2: who hasn't gotten over being taken from his family, losing

427
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Speaker 2: his mother. That's very clear from this film, and is

428
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 2: resentful and is full of anger, and he and Haad

429
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Speaker 2: Me are keeping secrets from people. And then you've got

430
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Speaker 2: Palpatine asking him to keep secrets, and you've got the

431
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Speaker 2: Jedi Council asking him to keep secrets. And when you

432
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: talk about it being on the level of Shakespeare or

433
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: Greek tragedies, that's because you've got a figure who is

434
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: saying things like I will not let this one, this death,

435
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 2: I will not let this dream, this premonition he's referring

436
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: to become a reality he says and does other things

437
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: that reflect what is driving him is this need to

438
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: protect the woman he loves, and everything he does in

439
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: order to do that only causes her pain and brings

440
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: about her downfall and the end of their relationship. So

441
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: that is the tragic irony. That is the definition of

442
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 2: tragic irony, Josh, that he's doing everything he can for

443
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: one good reason and ultimately only causing harm. Then you

444
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 2: add in the premonitions, of course, that he's being plagued

445
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: by that mistrust idea that keeps coming up over and

446
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: over again, the Jedi Council not trusting him, and even

447
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: Obi Wan Kenobi's conflicted everybody in this film, even Padney,

448
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: and one of the things I liked about her said,

449
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: I think that character still could have used a little

450
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: bit more depth, but to tie back to this idea

451
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: of the political prescience. One of the lines that really

452
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 2: stood out this time is when Obi Wan says to

453
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: Anakin near the end that only Sith lords talking absolutes.

454
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: I was at that point before he said that line, Josh,

455
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: I was thinking about ideologues, and I was thinking about

456
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: what makes them so dangerous and scary, of course, is

457
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: their absolute certainty, and then he says that, But Padme

458
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: is kind of the only character you could argue, even

459
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: thinking about the Jedi who truly doesn't fall victim to

460
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: dealing in absolutes, because she's someone who has seen the truth,

461
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: knows in her heart what the man she loves has become,

462
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: knows what he has done and is capable of, and

463
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 2: yet says, I know there is still good in him. Yea,

464
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: she believes fundamentally, and she's right, there is. We know

465
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: there is. We know at the end, even when he's

466
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: become Vader, and certainly part of that may be informed

467
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: by having seen the films that came that came after

468
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: Slash before, but we know there is good in him.

469
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: She's the only one who sees that. Obi Wan doesn't

470
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: see that, Yoda doesn't see that. They just know that

471
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: he has to be stopped.

472
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, the seeds for all of this have been so

473
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: richly planted in the first three films, and return to the

474
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: Jedi particular, you know that climactic the choices made there

475
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: to not just have Luke chop off Vader's head, but

476
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 3: instead to give all of that time to Luke's attempt

477
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: to at least recognize him as something other than Darth Vader.

478
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 3: You know, without those scenes in Jedi, none of this

479
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: would work as well as it does. But that doesn't

480
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 3: mean that this movie is just leeching off those It's

481
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: enriching those scenes and feeding back. It's a loop, feeding

482
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: back into their richness too. And you know, in this

483
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: world of reheats and sequels and prequels and all this stuff,

484
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: it's rare we get that sort of reciprocity of the films.

485
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: So I think that is one of the achievements of

486
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: Revenge of the Sith. I'm going to need a final verdict, though, Adam.

487
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: I want to know since this was a star driven

488
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: idea where you're ultimately going to land lower than those

489
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: five stars, because I have always, in my heart chuckled

490
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 3: at the notion that you have on the record a

491
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: higher rated review of a Star Wars prequel than I do,

492
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: and so about that, I'm hoping you at least stick

493
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 3: to four and a half so that still will hold true.

494
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: You know what, I'm going to do it, and that's

495
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: as good a reason as any. I'm definitely going to

496
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: give a four and a half. You're right, you the

497
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: lover of the Star Wars prequels has not gone higher

498
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 2: than four stars on any of those three films, four

499
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: out of five on letterbox. So I'm going to go

500
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: four and a half. And here's the reason why I'm

501
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: bestowing all this praise on the film. What is keeping

502
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: me from just fully leaning in fully committing to the

503
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: five stars, Besides a few things I'm referenced here and there,

504
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: including how hard it is to watch Samuel L. Jackson

505
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: be not good on screen, some of the effects the

506
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: opening the mace window Palplatine fight scene I think is

507
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: particularly egregious in that regard the grievous Obi one scene.

508
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: I agree with you, Josh, that fight scene is a

509
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: little bit better, though I was still watching it thinking,

510
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: why am I watching Obi Wan writing a gigantic lizard,

511
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: you know, especially early on, even pre fight. He's supposed

512
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: to be like hiding, He's supposed to be secretive and

513
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: being clandestine, and he's he's thumping around on this giant lizard,

514
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking, we've come such a long

515
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: way from those tontons I loved as a kid. But

516
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: in that moment, as I was writing that down in

517
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 2: my notes, I then interrogated that thought a little bit

518
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: more and the conclusion I came to because why was it?

519
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: What was it about the Tontons that I liked better

520
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: besides them feeling far more tactile, Yes, and overall liking

521
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: that that sequence more. And I think, here it is.

522
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: And I know this could open up a larger conversation

523
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: about the prequels that neither of us want to have

524
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: right now. But I think at its core for me

525
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: is the idea that Okay, yes, maybe these movies always

526
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: were intended for and our movies quote unquote four kids,

527
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: and that involves these types of creatures and that type

528
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: of fun with those creatures. But I thought back to

529
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, and I didn't fall in

530
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: love with Star Wars because I fell in love with

531
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: the creatures. I fell in love with the mythology. And

532
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: it was how those creatures served that mythology and served

533
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: that larger narrative. And it's only when the creatures start

534
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: to feel like the point and they override the mythology

535
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: that then some of us recoil a little bit at

536
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: these films. And that's one of those moments watching him

537
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: prance around, thump around on this really fake looking pseudo

538
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: dinosaur that I start to tune out.

539
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it might have been better if they'd given him

540
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 3: one of those those wheel vehicles that Grievous is driving

541
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 3: and just just let it, you know, duke it out,

542
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 3: wheel the wheel.

543
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

544
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: And as much as we both that the movie earns

545
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: those final moments, it sets up the entire franchise and

546
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: everything that we know is going to follow narratively, I

547
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: am going to admit to struggling a little bit Josh

548
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: on this viewing. I don't think I did back in

549
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, but I'm not sure struggling a

550
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: little bit with the idea because maybe I saw so

551
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: much good still an Anakin, or maybe I just didn't

552
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: want to accept it. I was seeing him through the

553
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: eyes of the woman who loves him. Here, it's a

554
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: little bit too much of a shock when he kills

555
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 2: all the young links.

556
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

557
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: That transformation feels awfully abrupt, especially when you think about

558
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: what is driving all of his actions. It's trying to

559
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: protect padme, it's trying to protect his family, his child eventually,

560
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: and the fact that we don't get any beats at

561
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: all where he seems to be wrestling with that decision.

562
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why. I think the argument would be

563
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: we needed some of the characters in the film needed

564
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: to know that he was capable of something on that

565
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: scale of evil, to know that he had truly crossed

566
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: over to the dark side. That would be the case

567
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: for it. But watching the film this time, I felt

568
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: as if, I'm not sure why it was truly there.

569
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 2: I didn't accept that it was there, and I think

570
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: it actually undercut the narrative more than served it.

571
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,959
Speaker 3: I think that's, you know, a case of unimaginative screenwriting,

572
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,959
Speaker 3: because the question is, how do we show how bad

573
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 3: he's gone? Well, of course you have him do this

574
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 3: heinous act that everyone would recoil from, when you probably

575
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: could have found a character choice that was less dramatic.

576
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: But because we know him, maybe it involves Obi Wan,

577
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 3: maybe it involves Padme. You know, the choke, the force

578
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: choking scene of her is obviously not on the same

579
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: moral level as killing the young Jedi, but because of

580
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: their relationship and our investment in those characters, it's somehow

581
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 3: feels like more of a step into a darker version

582
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: of himself than killing the kittens. You know, so I guess. Yeah,

583
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 3: that's the distinction I'm talking about where it's like, it

584
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: does feel like a little bit of lazy script writing,

585
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: is let's just think of something terrible and have him

586
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 3: do it, but it kind of sticks out.

587
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: Well, then it sticks out also because it is so

588
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: morally repugnant, it is so heinous that the reaction to

589
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: it almost feels like it doesn't match it.

590
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 6: None of the characters.

591
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: React on what type of things as well?

592
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 6: Right?

593
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, that said four and a half and I

594
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: feel great about it. Josh, I'm really glad I got

595
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: a chance to revisit Star Wars episode three, Revenge of

596
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: the Sith, was just back in theaters in wide release.

597
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: If you missed it, well you can see it for

598
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: the first time maybe or rewatch it.

599
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 6: It's available vod.

600
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: If you do an agree or disagree with our takes,

601
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 2: you can email us feedback at filmspotting dot net. Josh,

602
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: you cut up with vulcan Esidora from director Joel Patrichas.

603
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: That's out in limited release, maybe a movie not quite

604
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 2: on the same scale or budget a Star Wars, little

605
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 2: less social effects. Petrichas should be known to our longtime listeners.

606
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: He made Buzzard, which was a Golden Brick nominee back

607
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen. All I know about this film is

608
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: what's in front of me. Here, two friends take a

609
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: trip through a Michigan forest intent on carrying out a

610
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 2: disturbing pact. I want to see it because I did

611
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: like Buzzard a lot. I like Joel Patrichas as a filmmaker.

612
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: Can you urge me to see it? Having caught up

613
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: with it.

614
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: Josh, I strongly urge you. And it's funny. I just

615
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 3: had a chance before we jumped on recording to sit

616
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 3: down and write out, you know, the rough sketch of

617
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: a review, and a lot of times that's when I

618
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: find out how much I liked a movie. Obviously, nine

619
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 3: to nine percent of the cases, you come out of

620
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: a movie and you're like, yeah, yeah, liked it, or

621
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 3: it didn't work. But I don't always know until I

622
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: get my thoughts together. And this is very, very strong

623
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: and deeply disturbing. As you might expect. Having seen Buzzard,

624
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: it made me think, you know, these characters, these two guys.

625
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 3: I should note it doesn't matter, you don't have to

626
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: have seen Buzzard, but this actually picks up the main

627
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 3: character in Buzzard, Marty Jakatanski played by Joshua Burge, ten

628
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 3: years later about you know and so, and he's the

629
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 3: other guy is Patrychis playing Derek, Marty's friend who briefly

630
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 3: shows up in Buzzard. So again, you don't need to

631
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: know that. I didn't realize it. Honestly, my memory of

632
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 3: Buzzard had faded to the point where it wasn't until

633
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 3: I saw the character's names, like in the credits that

634
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 3: I was like, wait a minute, these are the two.

635
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 3: I bet this is the same guy, essentially in the

636
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 3: case of Marty. So if you remember in that movie,

637
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 3: he's this mangy, anti social outcast, basically getting through life

638
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 3: by running these petty scams that he's incredibly aggressive about.

639
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: Just someone like you don't want to be near for

640
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: any reason, for any length of time. And this is

641
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 3: multiplied in Volcanesadora. On this camping trip, I would say

642
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 3: for the first twenty minutes it plays more as pure

643
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: comedy because Derek, the Patrychis character, does more of the talking.

644
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 3: Marty is almost silent, and Derek is just this We

645
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 3: see him as this incompetent, self deluded motormouth. He's over

646
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: geared for this trip, whereas like Marty hasn't brought a thing,

647
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: but Derek's got all the equipment hanging off of him,

648
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 3: yet he can't light a campfire. He just keeps, but

649
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 3: he keeps encouraging himself. He's like, Oh, that's gonna burn,

650
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: that's gonna light, And then of course it doesn't. And

651
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: we get a lot of this stuff of these guys

652
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 3: acting like immature adolescent boys in the woods with fireworks. Again,

653
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 3: you don't want to be anywhere near them. But we

654
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: also understand early on, and it's not exactly defined, that

655
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: they're on this trip because they've made a pact of

656
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 3: some sort. There's a point to this trip, and we

657
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 3: increasingly get the sense that there's a darkness to the pact.

658
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:27,479
Speaker 3: We don't know what it is, but it's not good.

659
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: You still owe me money for what I paid your

660
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: bail that was seven hundred bucks and said you'd pay

661
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: me back, and if you don't go to your court, thing,

662
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get that back.

663
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 6: Well I'm not going to court.

664
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: Well, then you owe me money, man, you don't get it.

665
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 6: The money doesn't matter anymore. The Jagger Grail doesn't matter anymore.

666
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 6: Nothing matters anymore.

667
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: I know that.

668
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 6: Still seven hundred book.

669
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 3: So wherever they're headed is not good. And so the

670
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 3: movie begins to close in on you and then even

671
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: though they're in the outdoors, until it does sink in

672
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: what they're there for. And it just struck me, Adam,

673
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 3: that it's a real test for empathy, this movie and Buzzard,

674
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 3: And I was thinking about this in terms of like

675
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 3: Sean Baker's films right, which are you know, Tangerine Florida Project.

676
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 3: These are empathetic depictions of people on society's margins that

677
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: you come to recognize and appreciate their humanity. And what

678
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 3: Patrycas seems to be doing with Buzzard and Bulcanesador, at

679
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 3: least the only two films of his i've seen now,

680
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: is challenging us like, what if there is nothing that

681
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 3: you come to love about these characters? What then? And

682
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 3: I'm not saying there aren't moments of humanity in it.

683
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 3: Patrychas actually gets a soliloquy that he like, really nails

684
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: and does open up a little bit insight into Derek.

685
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 3: But this is more like if Baker's making cinema about outsiders.

686
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: This is like outsider cinema, these two films. Even in

687
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 3: its esthetics, it's challenging you. There's this opening sequence of

688
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 3: just the two of them walking along and this blaring

689
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 3: like death metal on the soundtrack. At one point, Patryka

690
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: shifts to freeze frames in black and white and zooms

691
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 3: in on their faces in ways that are kind of

692
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 3: like jarring and off putting, and it builds to this

693
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: scene that's excruciating, I will say. And another thing Patricis

694
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: does is he holds on scenes and lets them play

695
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: out far after you want to be out of that scene,

696
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 3: but it's not. It never feels exploitative or it's because

697
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: this is this person, this is what the choice they're making,

698
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: this is who they are, and then you have to

699
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: wrestle with that. So it's challenging in terms of outsider

700
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 3: them in that way. And yet somehow I'm sitting here

701
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 3: just thinking about the things that it prompts in you

702
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 3: and in this character of Marty two, about confession and

703
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: trying to trying to form some sort of friendship and

704
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 3: maybe being incapable. I don't know. I'm obviously still thinking

705
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: a lot about it, But yeah, you need to catch

706
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: up with it.

707
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 6: I do.

708
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: I missed it when it played the sixtieth Chicago International

709
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 2: Film Festival last October, so I'm definitely going to see

710
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 2: it here before the end of the year. On that recommendation, Josh,

711
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: It's currently out in limited release. If you see vulcan

712
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: Esadora and agree or disagree with the Josh feedback at

713
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 2: film Spotting.

714
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 6: Done, I feel better. I think I feel better.

715
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you feel better now, but tomorrow you're going to

716
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: feel bad again.

717
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 3: Listening is the number one thing you can do to

718
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 3: support an independently produced show like film Spotting. A couple

719
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 3: more things you can do. Take a minute to give

720
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 3: us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

721
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: You can do this whether you're a first time listener

722
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 3: or you've been listening for twenty years. Every new review

723
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: helps us reach new listeners. Another way to support us,

724
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: join the film Spotting Family at film Spottingfamily dot com.

725
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 3: Thank you to family member Amber Noel from Atlanta. I've

726
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 3: had the honor of editing some of Amber's writing over

727
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 3: the years, so great to see her here as a

728
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: family member.

729
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: Amber says I found film Spotting during a year in

730
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: my mid thirties when I moved in temporarily with my

731
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: parents so I could work on a writing project. You

732
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: guys kept me company on long walks around their subdivision,

733
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: and some days help keep me sane.

734
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 6: Love you, Mom and Dad. Favorite review or segment.

735
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: I enjoyed Adam's interview with Ethan Hawk, and always enjoyed

736
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 2: decade brackets and deep dives into particular tours. Keeps my

737
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: watch list fresh. Here's a good one. What review did

738
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: we get wrong?

739
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 6: Oh man?

740
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: I was talking back so hard at both of your

741
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 2: analyzes of the end of Lost in Translation? What did

742
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: Bill Murray whisper to Scarlett Johannes. I will be convinced

743
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 2: until the day I die that he was simply telling

744
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: her that everything was going to be okay. It was

745
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: a tender wise goodbye, a whispered suggestion of another rendezvous.

746
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 6: Please, sirs? Did you say that because.

747
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 3: I was gonna ask you the same thing? Yeah?

748
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 2: Here's Amber. This is still living rent free in her mind.

749
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: And I didn't know I had an analysis at the

750
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: end of Lost in Translation.

751
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: I do remember we spent time on it, okay, And

752
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 3: the only other thing I can say that might resonate

753
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: with this is I at least remember. One of my

754
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: takeaways in that revisit is that that relationship struck me

755
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: as less platonic on that revisit than it did when

756
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 3: the movie first came out. Now, I don't know if

757
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 3: that led me to theorize this about that whisper. Maybe, though,

758
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: we'll we'll have to go to the.

759
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 2: Tape, yeah, or have Sam go to the tape and

760
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 2: make bullet points for us. A favorite movie that she

761
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: revisited recently, Amber says Phantom Thread, a random film or

762
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: film maker. She loves Jim Jarmish's coffee and cigarettes. A

763
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: movie she credits with becoming a sinophile is Eternal Sunshine

764
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: of the Spotless Mind. It was the first rated AR

765
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: movie I saw in the theater, and my sensitive teenage

766
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: evangelical conscience was torn. Josh, tell me if any of

767
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: this connects with you. But I remember praying and telling God, Lord,

768
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 2: this looks like a really good movie. If you don't

769
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: want me to see it, you'll have to tell me

770
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 2: after it turns out the Lord was okay, and so

771
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,439
Speaker 2: was I. The movie blew my mind, broke my heart,

772
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: and changed my engagement with movies.

773
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 3: Oh great story.

774
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, No.

775
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: The only similar one I have is at which I

776
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 3: may have shared on the show. When Debbie and I

777
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: were on a date to go see the Silence of

778
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: the Lambs and we were going to the late show,

779
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: my parents were at the early show. They waited in

780
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: the parking lot and said, you're not going to take

781
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 3: her on a date to this movie.

782
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 6: So we circled the mall I was gonna say, and

783
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 6: snuck in. You had to.

784
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: Circle the mall until they left and went right in.

785
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 3: So that's my version of Amber's story.

786
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: A book about movies or movie making, Amber says she

787
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: hasn't read it yet that David Thompson's The Big Screen

788
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: is in the queue. Thank you for joining the family

789
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: and for all your years of listening. In addition to

790
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 2: keeping us doing what we're doing, your support comes with perks.

791
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: You get to listen early in ED free, You get

792
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: our weekly newsletter, You get exclusive opportunities like being part

793
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: of the Film Spotting Family Discord, and you get access

794
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: to monthly bonus shows like What's Dropping Soon, our April Bonus,

795
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: ask Us Anything, and our May Bonus Coming soon, a

796
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 2: draft with our Film Spotting Madness Bracket contest winner, You

797
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: can learn more at film Spotting Family dot com.

798
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 4: Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams and I'm partnering with Abercomedy to

799
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 4: tell you about the newest drop from their Active brand,

800
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: Your Personal Best YPB luggings are made with buttery soft

801
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Speaker 4: fabrics that hug you in all the right places and

802
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 4: common Abercomed's viral curve love fit designed to eliminate waste gap,

803
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Speaker 4: Paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts. It's active

804
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Speaker 4: word that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and

805
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Speaker 4: gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new

806
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 4: year feeling your personal best. Shop Active by Abercrombie in

807
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 4: the app, online and in stores.

808
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 6: I just wanted to come here.

809
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 3: To Winkies.

810
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 6: This Winkies.

811
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 3: Okay, why this Winkies.

812
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 6: It's kind of embarrassing.

813
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 3: Go ahead, I had a dream about this place.

814
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 6: Oh boy.

815
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 2: That's from Film Spotting Madness finalist Mulholland Drive. We will

816
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: announce this year's Madness Champion just a bit, but first

817
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 2: let's talk about next week's show, Josh. It's kind of

818
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 2: the culmination of the project we started with this year's

819
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: Madness celebrating the best films of the last twenty five

820
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 2: years we've decided to list, though I have not begun

821
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: to try to compile this our top twenty five films

822
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: of the twenty first century.

823
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like a difficult task. We did

824
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 3: put in some of this work, which we can review.

825
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 3: Was it the best of you know, up to twenty

826
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 3: twenty or did we just do to twenty ten. We've

827
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,479
Speaker 3: done some variation of this, some decade work, decade work

828
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 3: that at least will give us a starting point. Now,

829
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 3: I'm not going to copy and paste those, you know,

830
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 3: I want to rethink about my opinions of some of

831
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: the movies on there, maybe find titles that weren't on

832
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 3: there at all that I want to shift in. So, yeah,

833
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 3: a bit of a monumental task. But of course Madness

834
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 3: did some of this work for us too. We're already

835
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 3: in this hut space.

836
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 2: We are, though of course you're not part of the

837
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: selection committee by choice, by your choice, not our choice.

838
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: And that means that the Madness seeding doesn't necessarily reflect

839
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: your ranking of the best films of the last twenty

840
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 2: five years, and it doesn't really reflect my ranking or

841
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: Sam's either, because we're trying to anticipate how voting ultimately

842
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: will go. So yes, plenty of overlap, or I am

843
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: at least assuming there will be a fair amount of overlap,

844
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: because there are plenty of titles that made the Madness

845
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: Bracket that I love and that we're among our favorite

846
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 2: films of the year when we do our top tens

847
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: as part of our annual roundtable. So we will see

848
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: how it all shakes out. It is daunting, but I'm

849
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: looking forward to the challenge. Now, I guess I'll note

850
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: this isn't going to be a four hour or fourteen

851
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 2: hour show. We're not going to go deep on all

852
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: twenty five films. We're gonna kind of take them in

853
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: groups of five and single out a film that we

854
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: really want to highlight. That's how we're planning to approach

855
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: it to make this a little more manageable for everyone.

856
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 2: Back on episode three hundred, Josh Before Your Time, when

857
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: we were doing then the best films of the decade

858
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: so far two thousand through two thousand and nine, I

859
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,760
Speaker 2: had Mulholland Drive as the best film of the two thousands.

860
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: But we have fifteen more years of cinema to now

861
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: factor in. Should be fun for a schedule of future shows,

862
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: visitfilmspotting dot Net slash episodes. Of course, you should always

863
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 2: be aware that when it says subject to change, things

864
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: are subject to change. Like this week, our plan was

865
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: to have two authors on the show, Mariah Gates. We

866
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: talked about her and her new book, Cinema or Her

867
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: Way last week, and we were going to discuss a

868
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: different movie celebrating an anniversary, Love and Basketball at twenty five.

869
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 2: But some of you may have seen that Mariah mentioned

870
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 2: on her Facebook page her dad is having some health issues.

871
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 2: She's out with him, had to back out this week.

872
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: We wish them both the best and we look forward

873
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 2: to having Mariah on very soon to talk not only

874
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 2: about her book, but talk about that film, Love and Basketball,

875
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 2: which now we have both seen.

876
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, can't wait to get into that discussion. So hopefully

877
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: we'll get to do that with Mariah soon. This week

878
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 3: on our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at

879
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 3: Cinema's present via its Past, they've got a new pairing

880
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 3: that I'm very excited about, Ryan Coogler's Sinners. Of course,

881
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 3: they had to discuss that one and maybe the first

882
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 3: movie that came to my mind while watching Sinners was

883
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 3: the Robert Rodriguez Quentin Tarantino collaboration from Dusk Till Dawn.

884
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 3: That one came out in ninety six with George Clooney starring. Yep,

885
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 3: right there his co star, not a cameo, Quentin Tarantino.

886
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 3: I love this pairing, but it reminded me, Adam that

887
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 3: in our review of Sinners, I meant to shout out

888
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: a couple of other influences I thought of, and actually

889
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 3: I think it wasn't until after our discussion. I thought

890
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: about Steve McQueen's Lover's Rock, which we loved but created

891
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 3: this atmosphere of community and safety around music, which is

892
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 3: such an essential part of Sinners as well. And then

893
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 3: one that I've seen maybe one person on social mention,

894
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 3: but it's a film forgotten to time by many. But

895
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 3: I loved two thousand and six's Idlewild. This is a

896
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 3: musical set in the nineteen thirties Georgia speakeasy and stars

897
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 3: the hip hop duo Outcast. It's really great. It's a

898
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 3: ton of fun touches on some similar themes. So those

899
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: are two other possible pairings, but I am excited about

900
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 3: the one that the next picture show folks are doing

901
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 3: from dust till dawn with Sinners.

902
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: So what you're saying is, next time, Genevieve give give

903
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 2: me a call, Josh is ready, I mean put.

904
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 6: An end coach.

905
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 3: They always they always hit it out of the park.

906
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 3: So but yeah, this one should be a good one.

907
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 3: New episodes drop every Tuesday and you can find the

908
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 3: next picture show wherever you get your podcasts.

909
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: The past few weeks here on Film Spotting, we have

910
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 2: highlighted the Chicago Critics Film Festival, the group that we

911
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: are a part of that we are not a part

912
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: of the programming committee. In this case, we would be

913
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: proud to be part of that committee with some of

914
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 2: the titles they've suggested. These filmfests have always been a

915
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: good time when we've been able to go to screenings

916
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: and when we've heard the responses to these films that

917
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: screen at the music Box. As you're hearing this, the

918
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 2: fest is ongoing started May second, runs through May eighth.

919
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 2: I've highlighted one title, Josh that I Wreck, and then

920
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: the Zodiac Killer Project. You've had a chance to look

921
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: over the list, anything stand out to you that you're

922
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: particularly eager to see.

923
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll throw two out There. One is a midnight showing.

924
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 3: It's going to be Saturday, eleven fifty nine pm. Mister

925
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 3: K had not heard of this before. It stars Crispin

926
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: Glover as a traveling magician who finds himself in a

927
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 3: kafcusk nightmare when he can't find the exit of his hotel.

928
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 3: Now Glover, I was looking up his credits. You know.

929
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 3: He was on the TV series American Gods a few

930
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: years ago, popped up in an episode of Germo del

931
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 3: Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities more recently, but otherwise it's been

932
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 3: a while since he's been a reliable weirdo on the

933
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 3: big screen, and so this is good to see him

934
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 3: back in an intriguing premise. It's written and directed by

935
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 3: Tallula Hayes camp Schwab, a Norwegian Dutch filmmaker who's based

936
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 3: in the Netherlands. Again, that's going to be eleven fifty

937
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 3: nine pm, Saturday, May three. If you're not a late

938
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 3: night person. An afternoon showing that I think I'm going

939
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 3: to try to go to is a Friendship Sunday at

940
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 3: four thirty pm. The plotline is suburban dad Craig falls

941
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 3: hard for his charismatic new neighbor, but Craig's attempts to

942
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 3: make an adult male friend threatened to ruin both of

943
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 3: their lives. This has Tim Robinson as Craig and Paul

944
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 3: Rudd as the new neighbor. Now Robinson folks might know

945
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 3: from the Netflix sketch comedy series I Think You Should

946
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 3: Leave with Tim Robinson, which features character is so awkward

947
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,479
Speaker 3: or inappropriate there basically everyone does want them to leave.

948
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 3: It was one of the more bizarre examples of serious

949
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 3: comedy I've seen in recent years. Hilarious and uncomfortable, also

950
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: oddly profound about the desperation of humanity and opportunities to

951
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 3: meet that with kindness. So if Tim Robinson is someone

952
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 3: who's been on your radar, I'm sure you're intrigued by

953
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 3: Friendship as i am. It's written and directed by Andrew Deyong,

954
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 3: who has done a lot of TV work, including a

955
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 3: handful of episodes of Our Flag Means Death. So again,

956
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 3: that's Friendship for thirty PM, Sunday, May fourth.

957
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit of a cop out, Josh, because

958
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 2: this festival is usually about discovery. It's about new voices

959
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: or independent film, smaller movies that need or deserve a

960
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 2: larger audience, but they always sprinkle in some anniversary screening,

961
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: some thirty five millimeter prints, and you can watch on Sunday,

962
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: May fourth, at eleven thirty in the morning. Charlie Chaplin

963
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 2: h The Great Dictator, a movie I haven't seen in

964
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 2: probably thirty years, if I'm being totally honest, or at

965
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: least twenty five. And then the day before Saturday, May third,

966
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 2: this one's in the evening. But strange days, Catherine Bigelow's

967
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 2: film starring Ray Fines, celebrating its thirtieth anniversary once again

968
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 2: in thirty five millimeters. Seeing that at the music Box,

969
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 2: so two, I wanted to make sure people are aware of.

970
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,280
Speaker 2: But one other movie that I'm really intrigued by, Josh,

971
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: just based on its description is Brother Versus Brother and

972
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: Versus His spell vr scs like a verse in a song,

973
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 2: which makes sense. It's directed by Ari Gold, and this

974
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 2: is the description. It says it's inspired by Francis Coppola's

975
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: concept of live cinema. Now I don't know exactly what

976
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 2: that means in this context or how it will play

977
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: out in this film. I assume they're referencing the Megalopolis

978
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 2: Adam Driver element where there was actually some live interaction

979
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 2: that occurred that varied per screening, But they say in

980
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: this description it's a radically personal musical odyssey combative. Twin

981
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 2: musicians hunt for their dying poet father in an improvisation

982
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: performed by the director's own family in a single, unbroken

983
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 2: shot through the streets of San Francisco. So we're going meta,

984
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 2: we're going experimental, single unbroken take. One brother seeks love

985
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 2: and excitement while the other seeks to disappear and do

986
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: his music. But his nightfalls and their father remains missing.

987
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: Their frantic safari leads them from the secret haunts of

988
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 2: the beat poets into the heart of their family.

989
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 6: I just want to see how they pull this off.

990
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 6: It doesn't work.

991
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that sounded fascinating. One last thing, and I'm

992
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 3: just going to throw this out there just to kind

993
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 3: of hold myself to it and make sure I get there.

994
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 3: But I am contemplating doing a triple feature on Wednesday,

995
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: May seven. I know, I don't know if I'll pull

996
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 3: off all three. But the film you're you've highlighted Adam

997
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 3: Zodiac Killer Project, as I think you said it nine

998
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 3: thirty pm on Wednesday, May seven, So that one I

999
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 3: want to see, and then before that are two films

1000
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 3: that look intriguing. Won't go into all the details here,

1001
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 3: but Familiar Touch and Happy End. So if you're Chicago

1002
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 3: listener and are there Wednesday May seven and you see me,

1003
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 3: please say hello. That would be a great triple feature

1004
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 3: if I can fit that in. And you said it

1005
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,919
Speaker 3: at the top out, But I do want to really

1006
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 3: reiterate the programming of this festival has been consistently excellent

1007
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 3: since they started. And we can say that because as

1008
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, we're not involved in it, and I'm

1009
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 3: each year. I'm impressed with the films that they fine

1010
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 3: just smart picks, good restorations or anniversaries as you said,

1011
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 3: But also they are often ahead of ahead of the game,

1012
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 3: you know, with some movies that either end up getting

1013
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 3: released and are incredibly strong or some other scenario where

1014
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 3: they become you know, ones you'll you'll be glad you

1015
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 3: have seen and you'll likely have seen it at this festival.

1016
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: First Befest is going on now at the Music Box.

1017
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 2: You can learn more and get your tickets at Chicago

1018
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: Critics Film Festival dot com.

1019
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 5: This lasting, this is madness This is absolute madness.

1020
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 6: This is madness, madness, madness.

1021
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 5: But this is absolute madness, Ambassador, Why should you build

1022
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 5: such a thing?

1023
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 3: Madness?

1024
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: That is s hot off.

1025
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 2: Zack Snyder's three hundred curiously not one of the sixty

1026
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: four films to make this year's Film Spotting Madness Best

1027
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 2: of the twenty first century so far. Madness is our

1028
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 2: our annual bracket style movie elimination tournament. Sixty four movies,

1029
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 2: only one survives, and it's time to announce a champion,

1030
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 2: the best film of the last twenty five years, as

1031
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 2: determined by Film Spotting listeners. And as it turned out,

1032
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: our finals matchup was between our number one seed and

1033
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 2: our number two seed, Paul Thomas Anderson's There Will Be

1034
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 2: Blood up against David Lynch's Mulholland Drive.

1035
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 3: Let's get to some listeners thoughts about this matchup before

1036
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 3: we reveal the winner. Here's Josh Newby. Both are obviously masterpieces,

1037
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 3: so there's no wrong answer. But if Mulholland Drive wins,

1038
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 3: I think it'll be largely based on Lynch's passing and

1039
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 3: a desire to honor his legacy. But There Will Be

1040
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 3: Blood is truly timeless in its critique of greed, capitalism, family,

1041
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 3: and religion. So Mahaland Drive might be the best movie

1042
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 3: of this era right now, but there will be Blood

1043
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 3: is the best movie of this era long term.

1044
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 2: Here's Jose Gonzalez. I'm not sure how Mulholland Drive beat

1045
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: Grand Budapest in the mood for love or eternal unshine

1046
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: of a Spotless Mind? Can we get a recount?

1047
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know hose the committee is

1048
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 3: awfully busy as it is. Here's Keith hook up the

1049
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 3: doal Moser. I guess I should rewatch Mohan Drive because

1050
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 3: I don't see how it made it past half the

1051
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 3: movies it defeated. Here. I gave it two and a

1052
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 3: half stars after my one viewing back in two thousand

1053
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 3: and seven. Side question for Sam and Adam. Any reason

1054
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 3: why some Madness pages show results while others show closed polls.

1055
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked, Keith. I did decide this

1056
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: year to do something different, though I should have been

1057
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 2: consistent about it, which is to not show the results

1058
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 2: on the various pages for each round because it's redundant

1059
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 2: and it's extra tedious work. The results are on the

1060
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: bracket you can look at the bracket. You don't need

1061
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 2: to look at it on those pages. So moving forward,

1062
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: I probably won't put the results at all on those pages.

1063
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 2: I'll just close the polls that said the play in

1064
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 2: page is one where you need the results because those

1065
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: don't otherwise show up.

1066
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 6: Gotcha the bracket.

1067
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 2: So there's your answer, Keith, here's Daryl.

1068
01:00:59,560 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 6: Look.

1069
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: I love pt Anderson as much as most cinophiles, but

1070
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 2: Mulholland Drive is a better film, and quite frankly, a

1071
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: win from Mallan Drive would be an easy way to

1072
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: pay respect to this artist whose work will be sorely missed.

1073
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 3: How about we end with this from MITCA, congratulations film,

1074
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 3: Spotty Nation. You're boring, be.

1075
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 2: A boring Midkah says, well enough suspense. How did it

1076
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 2: come out?

1077
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 3: There was a lot of lynch love, but not enough

1078
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 3: to take down There will be blood. PTA wins it

1079
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: fifty four percent to forty six percent.

1080
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: And if you maybe are thinking, okay, well it was

1081
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 2: the number one seed, had a pretty easy path. That's

1082
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 2: why it won. Here are the movies it took down

1083
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 2: on its path to the championship. Christian Munju's four Months,

1084
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 2: three weeks, and two Days, Denevilnov's Arrival, the other Andersen's

1085
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 2: The Royal, Tenebobs Oh, David Fincher's The Social Network. In

1086
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 2: the final four the Coen Brothers, No Country for Old Men,

1087
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: and finally Mulholland Drive. And that turned out to be

1088
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: its toughest competition, with No Country getting forty five percent

1089
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 2: of the vote, and here you know, we had Mulholland

1090
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 2: with forty six percent. Otherwise otherwise it was winning in

1091
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 2: the sixties or seventies as it made its way through

1092
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 2: the bracket. But some formidable titles there and this is

1093
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 2: there will be Blood's second Madness win. It also won

1094
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 2: the Best of the two Thousands back in twenty nineteen.

1095
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 2: And my question for you, Josh, which I know we

1096
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: aren't going to be able to decide here, but I

1097
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,919
Speaker 2: posed to Sam via Slack, is at some point when

1098
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: it's won Best Films of the two thousands already looking

1099
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 2: at one decade, and now Best Film of the two

1100
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: thousands looking at twenty five years a quarter century, is

1101
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: it just insane that this movie isn't in the film

1102
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 2: spotting pantheon?

1103
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 6: Should it be fast tracked?

1104
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 3: I mean, it certainly makes the Pantheon suspect more suspect

1105
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 3: than it already was. So this got an original review

1106
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 3: on the show and a revisit a san Anniverse or

1107
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 3: a Sacred Cow. So it's checked those boxes. Yes, I

1108
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 3: don't know what else it has to do. To be

1109
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 3: honest with you.

1110
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 2: I know I feel like we should be anointing it.

1111
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 2: We'll have to have a production meeting and discuss behind

1112
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 2: the scenes. Our congratulations to PTA, and there will be blood.

1113
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: We also had a contest for third place, No Country

1114
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 2: for Old Men, up against Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

1115
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 2: That final was pretty close. This one was even closer.

1116
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 2: But first a little bit of feedback Josh, and I

1117
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 2: think now we get a better idea of why Mitke

1118
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 2: might have been so miffed.

1119
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 3: To quote Kent Brockman, I've said it before and i'll

1120
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 3: say it again, democracy simply doesn't work.

1121
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 2: So obviously a bigger fan of one of these two

1122
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 2: films that got beat and didn't make it to the final.

1123
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 4: All right.

1124
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: We got more feedback from Jonathan Anderson. Here he's in Denver.

1125
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 3: I'm picturing everybody in Joel's house. And then Anton Sugar

1126
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 3: blows the lock off the Door. Sorry, Eternal Sunshine.

1127
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's Cueball. I'm beyond thrill that mulhalland Drive beat

1128
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 2: Eternal Sunshine. So that makes this one easy country for

1129
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: the Bronze and Josh. That is how it played out,

1130
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 2: very close, but No Country for Old Men does take

1131
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 2: third place fifty one percent to forty nine percent. This

1132
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 2: is another third place finish for No Country though a

1133
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 2: bit of redemption for the Cones because in twenty nineteen

1134
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 2: they got beat out by Eternal Sunshine, which finished second,

1135
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 2: and now it's finishing fourth, but No Country lost to

1136
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: it in twenty nineteen. Now No Country beat it to

1137
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 2: get third place and ultimately finish third in both of

1138
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,479
Speaker 2: those tournaments. So our listeners are big on PTA, They're

1139
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,959
Speaker 2: big on the Cone Brothers, and hey, we're all fans

1140
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 2: of Eternal Sunshine as well.

1141
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the love. It was very interesting to watch

1142
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 3: the Lynch situation play out, and I think, as you

1143
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 3: mentioned in one of the shows, you know, it's not

1144
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 3: just that Lynch died recently, but people have been rewatching

1145
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 3: his movies and so that had to be part of

1146
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 3: the influence as well, which I like, you know, that

1147
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 3: makes it less just sentimental or nostalgic. It's actually based

1148
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 3: on the films themselves that drove mulholland drive to this

1149
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 3: second place finish, just not quite enough to give it

1150
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 3: over the top. I guess.

1151
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 2: Interesting bit of trivia. Back in twenty nineteen, the selection

1152
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: committee anointed No Country for Old Men the number one seed.

1153
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 2: It was there will be Blood. There was number two,

1154
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: but it took it. It takes Film Spotting Madness twenty

1155
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 2: twenty five as well. To see the complete bracket from

1156
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 2: this year or any previous year, you can do that

1157
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 2: at filmspotting dot Net, slash Madness and now the bracket contest.

1158
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 2: The winner gets some nice prizes, including a signed Film

1159
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 2: Spotting Fest poster by Coganata and Ryan Johnson. They get

1160
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 2: to join us for a bonus content draft on the

1161
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 2: topic of their choosing. Maybe we'll just have to do

1162
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 2: the British Film's draft all over again, because it turns out, Josh,

1163
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 2: that we had the same winner for the second year

1164
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: in a row.

1165
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 3: It's Ricky. It is oh my gosh.

1166
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 2: The UK's Ricky Kendall. Ricky Uneasy lies the head that

1167
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 2: wears the crown. But again that's not true because that

1168
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 2: crown seems to just fit perfectly atop his head. Maybe

1169
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 2: he pulls off the trifecta next year, for the second

1170
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 2: year in a row, not only winning but only a

1171
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: single incorrect pick. There are sixty three choices to make

1172
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 2: in film Spotting Madness, and once again he made sixty

1173
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 2: two of them accurately.

1174
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 3: Ricky is as inevitable as there will be blood.

1175
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 6: Apparently that's a good way to put it.

1176
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 2: It's it's suspect he's a wizard or something, and we'll

1177
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 2: have to figure out what his secret to pulling this

1178
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 2: off was when we get on the chat with him

1179
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 2: for a draft that will be coming up soon that

1180
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 2: will be our May bonus content. Congratulations, Ricky. We will

1181
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: be talking to you soon about coordinating that and getting

1182
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 2: your prizes out to you. Man, I'm gonna have to

1183
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 2: drop some money sending that poster across the pond.

1184
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, kidding out.

1185
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: Some customs paperwork. But Ricky, you have definitely earned it.

1186
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 2: In terms of our internal bracket challenge, well, as I projected,

1187
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 2: I went from first to worst.

1188
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 6: I tried to be bold.

1189
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 2: I had Mulholland drive defeating there will be Blood in

1190
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 2: the final That obviously did not happen. That means I dropped.

1191
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 2: I'm the big loser and will have some punishment coming

1192
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,919
Speaker 2: my way, to be decided by you. Sam and Film

1193
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 2: Spotting Madness Godfather Mike Merrigan, Josh, you just escaped. You

1194
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 2: finished third, one hundred and sixth Overaul.

1195
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 3: Well, you know what, I you should hold your head

1196
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 3: high because you took a risk, a calculated risk that

1197
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 3: I did consider, and I think you know at least

1198
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 3: you have integrity in doing that.

1199
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 6: Thank you, Josh. That means a lot.

1200
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 2: One hundred and six overall really isn't too bad when

1201
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 2: you consider we had eight hundred and twenty five entries.

1202
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm proud of that up.

1203
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 2: Sam also in the top one hundred, finished ninety second overall.

1204
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 2: Mike Marrigan seventy first. He finishes first in our competition.

1205
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: We think, Mike, we think everyone who participated this was fun.

1206
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 2: And I notice that it's not here in our show outline, Josh,

1207
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 2: but we are all set to announce that we are

1208
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 2: in fact going to go back in twenty twenty six

1209
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 2: to our decade by decade approach. We're not sure we're

1210
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 2: going to continue it after twenty twenty six, but we

1211
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,839
Speaker 2: are at least going to give you the best films

1212
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 2: of the nineteen forties.

1213
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 3: So excited for that. This is going to be a

1214
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 3: big blind spot erase your opportunity. When we do these

1215
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:49,600
Speaker 3: sorts of madness contests, find those films that are considered

1216
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 3: good enough to likely make the bracket, but for some

1217
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 3: reason one of us hasn't seen catch up with them.

1218
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 3: And I know listeners like doing that as well, so

1219
01:08:58,439 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 3: that'll be a fun one.

1220
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,919
Speaker 2: And there's more good news. I'm sure that most listeners,

1221
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: not all listeners, but most listeners are like us. And

1222
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 2: unless you grew up in this era or shortly after,

1223
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 2: the more recent the decade, the more films you've seen. Definitely,

1224
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 2: the nineteen forties list on Letterboxed has my biggest percentage

1225
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 2: of films that I need to see, the most homework

1226
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 2: I need to do. And since I assumed I was

1227
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 2: not alone in that, I decided to hunker down work

1228
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 2: with Sam, and I can say the earliest this has

1229
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 2: ever been accomplished. The short list is ready to go.

1230
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 2: We actually shared it with Film Spotting family members on

1231
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 2: discord as a special benefit. Back at the beginning of

1232
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 2: this Film Spotting Madness they've had some more time to

1233
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 2: do their homework, Josh. But you have from right now

1234
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 2: early May until the end of February to get ready

1235
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 2: and we hope you'll participate. We hope you'll have fun

1236
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 2: with this competition. You'll enter the Bracket Challenge next February

1237
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 2: and May, and you've got time to do it because

1238
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 2: the shortlist is available one hundred ish titles that we're

1239
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 2: considering for the final sixty four film. Spoting gott Neet

1240
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 2: Slash Madness is where you can find the list, Get

1241
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 2: on it.

1242
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 7: This episode is brought to you by Peloton break through

1243
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 7: the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton

1244
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 7: Cross Training tread Plus powered by Peloton Iq. With real

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01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 7: and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training tread Plus

1249
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 7: at one peloton dot com.

1250
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 6: Those are the shrouds me like burial shrouds, not exactly.

1251
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: It's basically a kind of camera in her grave.

1252
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 6: If you find it hard to take comforts me like

1253
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 6: she's floating out of space.

1254
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:04,759
Speaker 3: That was from David Cronenberg's The Shrouds. Vincent Cassel plays Karsh,

1255
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 3: a businessman who is mourning the death of his wife

1256
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 3: played by Diane Krueger. He invents a radical technology that

1257
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 3: allows the living to monitor departed family members in their

1258
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 3: graves via this complicated video feed. When graves, including that

1259
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,639
Speaker 3: of Karsh's wife, are desecrated, Karsh attempts to track down

1260
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 3: the perpetrators. It's worth noting that Cronenberg's wife of forty

1261
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 3: three years, Carolyn Zeifman, died in twenty seventeen.

1262
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 2: I do want to get some of your thoughts on

1263
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 2: The Shrouds, Josh, but first my conversation with film writer

1264
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 2: and author Violet Luca. She's been on the show before.

1265
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 2: I don't remember the exact topic, but back when she

1266
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 2: was the host of the Film Comment podcast a few

1267
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 2: years ago, we had Violet on excited to have her back,

1268
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:52,719
Speaker 2: as she has written this great book and great looking

1269
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 2: book called David Cronenberg Clinical Trials, an illustrative monograph on

1270
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 2: Cronenberg's filmography that just came out this past decemi and

1271
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 2: is quote not a straightforward narrative about the filmmaker, but

1272
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:09,479
Speaker 2: a dreamlike exploration of all that is Cronenbergian unquote. Here's

1273
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,879
Speaker 2: our chat, Violet first, welcome back to campus. We're recording

1274
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 2: this at the University of Iowa, where I now teach.

1275
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:19,839
Speaker 2: You earned a BA in cinematic arts. Here you introduced

1276
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 2: the shrouds last night at film scene. This isn't a

1277
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,400
Speaker 2: recruitment pitch for Iowa. I'm genuinely curious. Why did you

1278
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,720
Speaker 2: choose Iowa for your undergrad and did you always know

1279
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 2: you were going to study film?

1280
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a good question.

1281
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 8: So I grew up in Cedar Rapids, which is thirty

1282
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 8: forty minutes away, and I did not originally plan to

1283
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 8: come here because the high school I went to was

1284
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 8: very nice, but there were a lot of very wealthy

1285
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:51,839
Speaker 8: Cans kids. It's like sons and daughters of doctors, lawyers,

1286
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 8: that's Sara, and they were going to.

1287
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 1: Like ivs and subibes.

1288
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 8: And I was like, I'm going to try and go

1289
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 8: to Oxford in the UK. And then I had this whole,

1290
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:07,719
Speaker 8: very long application process, which surprisingly, going to a public

1291
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 8: school in the Midwest does not prepare you.

1292
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 6: Did you set show up for Oxford?

1293
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure did not, but it was a very nice

1294
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 1: high school. I'm sure, very nice high school free.

1295
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 8: But so then I was like, Okay, I guess I'll

1296
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 8: go to the University of Iowa.

1297
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 1: And I sort of was like upset about it.

1298
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 8: But then when I got here, I just really was

1299
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 8: able to throw myself into studies and I was so

1300
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 8: impressed with how unique and in depth, you know, the

1301
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 8: teachers were, the tas were, like everybody was so great.

1302
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 8: And even though I felt like maybe there was a

1303
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 8: maybe there was a Bloyd in my life where I

1304
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 8: felt like, oh I failed, I'm so glad I went

1305
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 8: here because after I finished the University of Iowa, I

1306
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 8: went to NYU for graduate school, and that program was

1307
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 8: very much a joke. So really and I'm very glad.

1308
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 8: I'm very glad I got the education here. I got

1309
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:09,639
Speaker 8: here not obscenely expensive. It was just like nice people,

1310
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:13,559
Speaker 8: good program, unique, and I feel like all of the

1311
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 8: professors had really kind of unique approaches to a particular subject,

1312
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 8: like we've watched the not obvious film noir. And then

1313
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 8: it was also like the seminar where it would just

1314
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 8: be like this amazing collection of really rare prints, Like

1315
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:32,760
Speaker 8: I remember I took the Arabic Cinema film seminar with

1316
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 8: Linda Makdad, and it was like incredible, Like there's there's

1317
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 8: things that I haven't been able.

1318
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 1: To find anywhere else. So I feel like it's good university.

1319
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you'll get a good education.

1320
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 2: So absolutely, So let's talk Cronenberg. Let's talk about your

1321
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 2: book Clinical Trials. I think there's about a ten year

1322
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 2: age difference between us, if my snooping on LinkedIn is accurate.

1323
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 2: The first David Cronenberg movie I saw and loved but

1324
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 2: wasn't aware that it was a David Cronenberg movie was

1325
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:08,480
Speaker 2: The Dead Zone. The first Kronenberg movie I sought out

1326
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:12,879
Speaker 2: and loved because it was a Kronenberg movie was Dead Ringers,

1327
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 2: though that wasn't in eighty eight when it came out.

1328
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 2: I didn't really begin my cinophile journey until a few

1329
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 2: years later. What was your gateway Kronerberg movie or movies?

1330
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,640
Speaker 8: Well, it actually was here. And again this is going

1331
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 8: to sound like an advertisement for the University of Iowa

1332
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 8: and specifically Linda mock Dad, But I took a horror

1333
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 8: film course while I was here, and it really like

1334
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 8: it really opened up horror to me and we watched

1335
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 8: the Fly and that was such a horrifying experience, and

1336
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:48,799
Speaker 8: I was sort of shocked by how much it moved

1337
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,960
Speaker 8: me and disturbed me. And so I went on like

1338
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,760
Speaker 8: a Kronaberg kick after that, you know, videodrome crash. Like

1339
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 8: I just sort of threw myself into it and I

1340
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 8: haven't looked back.

1341
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:03,880
Speaker 6: So this is your first book.

1342
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 2: Did you always have in mind that you might write

1343
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 2: a book? And if you did that, David Kronenberg was

1344
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 2: going to be the subject. How did this come about?

1345
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 8: So I knew David Jenkins, who's the editor of Little

1346
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 8: White Lies, and he is one of the editors on

1347
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 8: this series of books at Abrams where they do you know,

1348
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:29,040
Speaker 8: they've done one on pt Anderson Bong, June Hoe, the

1349
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,640
Speaker 8: Coen Brothers, And he asked me if I wanted to

1350
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 8: write a book on Cronenberg, and I was like, it

1351
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 8: was a very daunting task, but I took it because

1352
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 8: it's such a great I mean, it would be great

1353
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 8: to spend so much time with his work.

1354
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: So I threw myself in.

1355
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 8: I had I had a very good time, and I

1356
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 8: mean people had always been like, you should write a book,

1357
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 8: and I was like, I don't know i'd read to

1358
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 8: make a movie. But I'm very glad I wrote this book,

1359
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:58,320
Speaker 8: and I don't know my filmmaking will come back at

1360
01:16:58,320 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 8: another time.

1361
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 6: It is a beautiful book.

1362
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 2: It's one I've enjoyed thumbing through since I got it

1363
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:04,720
Speaker 2: a few days ago. I do want to establish some

1364
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 2: bona fides or lack thereof, on my end, because I

1365
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 2: have some fairly significant David Cronenberg feature blind Spots. If

1366
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 2: you decide to storm out in a huff, I won't

1367
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:20,600
Speaker 2: hold it against you. Chronologically, they are the brood scanners.

1368
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 2: I know, Naked Lunch Just wait, there's more Crash, oh,

1369
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 2: I know, and Crimes of the Future. The most egregious

1370
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 2: for me is Crash, just because by ninety six I

1371
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 2: would have claimed to be a David Cronenberg fan. I

1372
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 2: have no explanation for why I didn't see it. So

1373
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:46,080
Speaker 2: if you were curating for me my own personal Cronenberg

1374
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 2: blind spotting marathon of those five films, what would your

1375
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:53,679
Speaker 2: order be from most essential to least essential?

1376
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 8: Well, I think, well, when people ask me for film recommendations,

1377
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,800
Speaker 8: I'd like to ask some questions about what they like.

1378
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:04,400
Speaker 8: But since you're you're a dim little fin and while

1379
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 8: I'll just do.

1380
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 6: Whatever I feel like, please do.

1381
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:10,839
Speaker 1: So I would say normally I would say.

1382
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 8: Don't start with The Brood, but I would advise people

1383
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 8: before they watch The Shrouds to rewatch or watch for

1384
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:19,560
Speaker 8: the first time The Brood, because that is also a

1385
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 8: very deeply autobiographical film of his. I would probably say,

1386
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,960
Speaker 8: start with the fun one, start with Scanners, and then

1387
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 8: go to Naked Lunch and then go to Crash just

1388
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:33,760
Speaker 8: sort of, you know, once you're kind of on a roll,

1389
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:36,439
Speaker 8: you can kind of move into Crash with me, and

1390
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:39,479
Speaker 8: then you know, watch The Brood and then watch the

1391
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 8: new film, watch The Shrouds.

1392
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 1: Oh wait, and then Crimes of the Future. I mean,

1393
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:45,120
Speaker 1: you could start with that one.

1394
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:45,679
Speaker 6: You could.

1395
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 8: You could like that one's like so much fun so

1396
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 8: and it's like got all of the Kronenberg stuff that

1397
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:53,600
Speaker 8: he like, Old Kronberg.

1398
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 1: And New Kronenberg.

1399
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 2: The research process for this book, did you rewatch I'm

1400
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:02,760
Speaker 2: assuming you rewatched lot of things. What did you read, What,

1401
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:04,680
Speaker 2: if anything did you see for the first time? And

1402
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 2: did you have a clear idea going in what the

1403
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 2: framework was going to be. You divided into two parts

1404
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 2: and then there's there's chapters within each going by specific

1405
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:17,440
Speaker 2: Cronenberg themes or preoccupations, but the two parts being individuation

1406
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 2: and psychotherapy. How how did any of that shift from

1407
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:24,040
Speaker 2: the framework you maybe had in mind coming in as

1408
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:24,919
Speaker 2: you did your research.

1409
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:28,679
Speaker 8: Well, I got some very good advice before I started

1410
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 8: writing the book, and this was even before I wrote

1411
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 8: the proposal, and somebody said, get the structure done first,

1412
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,719
Speaker 8: because you can write whatever you want in a book

1413
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,559
Speaker 8: proposal and chances are they'll take it. But you have

1414
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 8: to figure that out sometime, like you you can't be

1415
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 8: lazy and not know what you're doing, because you're gonna

1416
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 8: have a headache later on.

1417
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:54,719
Speaker 1: So I, yeah, I had, I had.

1418
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 8: The structure in mine ahead of time, and I just

1419
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,600
Speaker 8: went for it. And I feel like, you know, I

1420
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,439
Speaker 8: read a lot of stuff that Carl Jung wrote. I

1421
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:07,839
Speaker 8: read a lot of stuff that was written by Cronenberg scholars,

1422
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:12,160
Speaker 8: but in particular I went back to a lot of

1423
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,680
Speaker 8: the original reviews and things written at the time and

1424
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,680
Speaker 8: interviews he did, and I found those incredibly helpful. And specifically,

1425
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 8: you know, Cronenberg on Croneberg was just in value me,

1426
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 8: but it was also interesting for me to see and

1427
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 8: sort of realize that the way that he talked about

1428
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 8: his films really changed over time, and I think he's

1429
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 8: you know, I wouldn't say it's a cynical thing. I

1430
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 8: think it's just a smart thing that the way he

1431
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:41,760
Speaker 8: talks about them kind of shifts the time. And then

1432
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 8: also people are just like not ready for certain things.

1433
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 8: So it was interesting to notice that change, and that

1434
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 8: was something I hadn't really expected.

1435
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 2: How about your reaction to Cronenberg and his work in

1436
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,639
Speaker 2: specific movies shifting maybe over time or through the process

1437
01:20:56,640 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 2: of researching this book, did you have a discovery or rediscovery?

1438
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 1: That's a good question, and whatever you hear, that's a

1439
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:07,560
Speaker 1: good question. That means you're their person I had to

1440
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 1: think about.

1441
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:08,599
Speaker 6: That's great.

1442
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 8: I would say probably Rabbit is one that I had

1443
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,560
Speaker 8: sort of thought as like a lower Kronenberg, and that

1444
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 8: sort of came back to me in a different way

1445
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 8: or rewatching it, certain things jumped out, and I think

1446
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 8: just rewatching them as a whole, or also, as you say,

1447
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 8: thinking of them in these different sort of subcategories, there's

1448
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,599
Speaker 8: different obsessions made me realize that, like, you know, Rabbit

1449
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:41,120
Speaker 8: is a really solid film, or like The Brood or

1450
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 8: things like you know, m Butterfly. I feel like that

1451
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 8: is a film that really gets short shrift. And I

1452
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 8: was always a fan of Maps to the Stars. Yeah,

1453
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:53,599
Speaker 8: but like revisiting that, there was just so much extra

1454
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 8: stuff that came to me. And then even Crash because

1455
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:00,160
Speaker 8: I remember I saw that with my friend Carrie my

1456
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 8: apartment on Jefferson Street and she turned to me at

1457
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 8: the end and she's like, I think we just watched

1458
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 8: a porn I was like, yeah, And then rewatching it,

1459
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:10,320
Speaker 8: I'm like, it's not porn.

1460
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:12,280
Speaker 6: That was probably maybe not quite.

1461
01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that was that was one thing where I'm

1462
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 1: just like, okay, yeah, I feel differently about a lot

1463
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:17,679
Speaker 1: of this stuff.

1464
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So it turns out I misspoke. I have six

1465
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:24,799
Speaker 2: major blind spots because I haven't seen Rabbit Eio. They so, yeah,

1466
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:27,560
Speaker 2: I know, and I missed it. Variety they did a

1467
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,800
Speaker 2: Cronenberg filmography ranking a couple of years ago, twenty twenty three.

1468
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 2: I think The Fly your Gateway Cronerberg was number one.

1469
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 2: It's number one on Rotten Tomatoes, highest score ninety three percent.

1470
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 2: I believe it's my co host favorite Cronenberg. I saw

1471
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 2: it on cable all the time as a kid, but

1472
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 2: didn't truly sit down to watch it like in one

1473
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 2: sitting a lot of stuff. I'm sure they did right,

1474
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 2: because between TV and cable, who knows what I saw.

1475
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 2: I watched it finally, just you know, gave it my

1476
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 2: full attention. Twenty twenty one. I thought it was fine.

1477
01:22:59,200 --> 01:22:59,599
Speaker 6: It wasn't.

1478
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,920
Speaker 2: It wasn't revelatory Kroniberg experience for me. Do you have

1479
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,320
Speaker 2: any unpopular Kroneberg opinions you'll admit to.

1480
01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:13,080
Speaker 8: Unpopular Kronerberg opinions, I would say, I don't know. I

1481
01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 8: wasn't as crazy about Stereo and Crimes of the Future

1482
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:20,400
Speaker 8: the Original Crimes of the Future, but I feel like

1483
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 8: the First Crimes of the Future prepares you also to

1484
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 8: watch The Shrouds because it has a very similar structure

1485
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:32,720
Speaker 8: where it's this man who's experienced deeply personal loss. It

1486
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:37,520
Speaker 8: sort of descends into this stranger and stranger stranger subterranean

1487
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,640
Speaker 8: world of sort of niche interests. Let's say, so that

1488
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 8: was I feel like again it's like I'm not I

1489
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 8: don't really like the Phone because he's clearly it's very rough,

1490
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 8: like your second kind of feature film. But that's probably

1491
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:55,160
Speaker 8: my least popular have.

1492
01:23:55,160 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 2: You ever had a full on negative reaction to a Cronerberg.

1493
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 8: I mean again, like I thought, Stereo is prettymoch okay,

1494
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 8: but it's like beautiful.

1495
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:07,280
Speaker 1: But I'm just sort of like, Okay, I get it. Yeah,

1496
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:08,120
Speaker 1: I get the joke.

1497
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 8: This could have been a short or it could have

1498
01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:12,200
Speaker 8: been part of Crimes of the Future like that.

1499
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:14,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's like the double album that could have

1500
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:16,439
Speaker 1: been a sent Yeah.

1501
01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:19,439
Speaker 2: So I said, I love The Dead Zone, even though

1502
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:21,600
Speaker 2: I can't tell you for sure the last time I

1503
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 2: watched it, but I watched it constantly as a kid,

1504
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:26,840
Speaker 2: and it is a movie I've thought about quite a

1505
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 2: bit during the Trump era. I'm not gonna lie, I

1506
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 2: think about The Dead Zone quite a bit. I'm always

1507
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 2: pleasantly surprised to see it appear pretty high on rankings

1508
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:40,639
Speaker 2: of his films and also on rankings of the best

1509
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 2: Stephen King film adaptations. And you have a bit of

1510
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 2: an explanation or your own opinion on that. You have

1511
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 2: a take that you can give that's in your book.

1512
01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 2: You also say something that really resonated with me. So

1513
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,639
Speaker 2: I want to mention this part. I'm going to read

1514
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 2: this part from page forty nine of the gospel clinical trials.

1515
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 2: Such warm feeling is absent from the Dead Zone, which

1516
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 2: is what makes it so power powerful. The retelling of

1517
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 2: King's novel is filtered through the eyes of its wounded protagonist,

1518
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:07,559
Speaker 2: mild mannered, virginal school teacher Johnny Smith Christopher Walkin, who

1519
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:10,040
Speaker 2: falls into a coma and awakens to discover he's lost

1520
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 2: his fiance Sarah Brooke Adams and gain clairvoyant powers. You're right,

1521
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 2: I would not call The Dead Zone a warm movie,

1522
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 2: but even more than the bloody scissors scene, which I've

1523
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:24,200
Speaker 2: never gotten out of my head and which I should

1524
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:27,840
Speaker 2: not have experienced at that young age. When I think

1525
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:30,479
Speaker 2: about The Dead Zone, I think about those wounded eyes

1526
01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:33,200
Speaker 2: of Christopher Walkin, I think about the vulnerability. I think

1527
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 2: about the tenderness of that movie and those scenes between

1528
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 2: him and Brook Adams, but many other characters in the film.

1529
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:42,479
Speaker 2: So why do you think it is? And is that

1530
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:44,479
Speaker 2: perhaps the reason? Why do you think it is that

1531
01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:47,760
Speaker 2: that movie does seem to be so highly regarded have

1532
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:50,759
Speaker 2: such staying power. Why is it a film that people

1533
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:53,679
Speaker 2: still place pretty high when they think about his best films.

1534
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 8: I think it is because it's a Stephen King joint ultimately,

1535
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:04,120
Speaker 8: but then because it's so unlike any other Stephen King novel,

1536
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 8: because Stephen King kind of Stephen King doesn't know what's

1537
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:10,599
Speaker 8: good for him in terms of adaptatiens, right like famously

1538
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 8: he traded Kuber. Yeah, you know, but I think probably

1539
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:19,320
Speaker 8: it has staying power because again there are so many funnies.

1540
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:23,639
Speaker 8: You know, even before Trump, there there are people who

1541
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 8: just sort of the dynamics, the political dynamics and then

1542
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 8: also those personal dynamics where who has an experience. Like

1543
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:33,640
Speaker 8: another way to think of it is that this is

1544
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 8: somebody who's experienced a loss and they can never regain

1545
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:40,080
Speaker 8: that time. And I feel like most people have had

1546
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 8: that experience in their life. And I think you can

1547
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 8: kind of watch it without realizing it, but that there's

1548
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:49,920
Speaker 8: the scene where Sarah comes over to his house and

1549
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,920
Speaker 8: she brings her son and they make love him and

1550
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 8: say and he just is he looks at the table,

1551
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:58,640
Speaker 8: you know, it's his dad there, the kid there, and

1552
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 8: Sarah there, and he's just sort of like this will

1553
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 8: never happen again, Like this is what I'd lost. Like

1554
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 8: he's been like seething because he's lost so much stuff,

1555
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:10,400
Speaker 8: and it's just like he gets one taste of it again.

1556
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like, really, it's really really painful.

1557
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 2: It is the first Kronenberg movie that was reviewed that

1558
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:20,879
Speaker 2: I reviewed on Film Spotting was a History of Violence.

1559
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:24,000
Speaker 6: That was five. That was our first year, maybe.

1560
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,719
Speaker 2: About seven months into the show, and my co host

1561
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 2: at the time, producer now Sam, we deemed it the

1562
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 2: number one film of that year, and being our first year,

1563
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 2: that was probably pretty meaningless. We maybe saw thirty movies

1564
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:39,760
Speaker 2: that year. But twenty years later, I don't have any

1565
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 2: regrets looking back on that film and ranking it so high.

1566
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 2: I looked back at my notes from that top ten show,

1567
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 2: and there's something I said that that coincides with what

1568
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:51,640
Speaker 2: you bring up in the book, which is how do

1569
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 2: you really know who Tom Stall is? And even when

1570
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 2: you find out the truth or what we think is

1571
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,559
Speaker 2: the truth, I never really felt like I knew it

1572
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 2: or believed it, or that I believe that he knew

1573
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,719
Speaker 2: who he truly is. And you really do spend the movie,

1574
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 2: even walking out, you have to ask yourself, at what

1575
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 2: point does he know who he is? And is he

1576
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 2: fooling himself as much as he's fooling everyone else? And

1577
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:18,880
Speaker 2: I love the way you phrased it in the book.

1578
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:20,920
Speaker 2: You say he is at once an impossibly good and

1579
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 2: evil man, and I think that's accurate, And you say

1580
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 2: it's clear that Cronerberg is playing with Hollywood genre conventions,

1581
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 2: particularly those of crime films and westerns, and teasing out

1582
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 2: the contradictions in the process. So I looked this up

1583
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 2: because I thought maybe it was just a perfect bit

1584
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:37,720
Speaker 2: of coincidence. And it was the first marathon we did

1585
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 2: on our show, and marathons have always been about filling

1586
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 2: in our cinematic blind spots. The very first one we

1587
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 2: did was Westerns, and it turns out that our Westerns

1588
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 2: marathon started about two weeks before we saw a history

1589
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:51,600
Speaker 2: of violence, So who knows if some of that was

1590
01:28:52,240 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 2: in my mind as I was taking in this Krona

1591
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,800
Speaker 2: Bird film. I was getting my education kind of in

1592
01:28:57,840 --> 01:28:59,640
Speaker 2: line with watching this film.

1593
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:01,479
Speaker 6: You can watch it and see that.

1594
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:04,799
Speaker 2: So clearly he's at once and here's that nice split,

1595
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 2: the dark side in him that comes out as well

1596
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 2: as the good side. He's like the law abiding saloon

1597
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:14,920
Speaker 2: operator in the small western town, but he's also the mysterious,

1598
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:15,879
Speaker 2: dangerous stranger.

1599
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 6: And it is clear.

1600
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 2: I think it was even clear to me then, as

1601
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 2: I was learning so much more about cinema that Kroneberg

1602
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 2: was deconstructing American and American cinematic archetypes in really interesting ways.

1603
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and actually, you know what, to go back to

1604
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,120
Speaker 8: your earlier question, I would absolutely say A History of

1605
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 8: Violence is a film that, upon revisiting for the book,

1606
01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:40,800
Speaker 8: I was like, whoa, this is so much better than

1607
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:43,760
Speaker 8: I remember it, because I do. I remember seeing it

1608
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:46,640
Speaker 8: roughly around the time it came out and kind of

1609
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 8: just being like eh, and then watching it now, it's

1610
01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:53,880
Speaker 8: just such a clear like it starts off so periodically,

1611
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:58,519
Speaker 8: like there's such a periodically applie family, like just too

1612
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:02,679
Speaker 8: squeaky clean, and then it falls apart, you know, and

1613
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:06,320
Speaker 8: again it the fact that it's unresolved, that you really

1614
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:10,360
Speaker 8: don't know and he doesn't know who he is. It's

1615
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,919
Speaker 8: it's what I would say, is that something that interests

1616
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:18,679
Speaker 8: me a lot are invisible aesthetics, right, because you can

1617
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:23,519
Speaker 8: be aware of sort of the syntactic and semantic approach

1618
01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 8: to Westerns, but you can't necessarily put your finger on it.

1619
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,639
Speaker 8: You're just it's sort of like just part of the

1620
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 8: Erkin grain, right, and it'll be an ad, it'll be

1621
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 8: on TV and you won't even notice it. You don't

1622
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:39,439
Speaker 8: have to do a westerns rewatch to really soak that

1623
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:43,640
Speaker 8: stuff in. And I think that's part of why you

1624
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 8: can watch it and kind of be like, it'll just

1625
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 8: pass you by, but if you really stop and really

1626
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 8: look at it, and you're like, man, something really weird

1627
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:55,320
Speaker 8: is going on. But it's also very essential and very crucial.

1628
01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:59,160
Speaker 8: I mean, what's so funny is that that like graphic

1629
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:02,880
Speaker 8: novel is such which it's so boring, like it's not

1630
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 8: very good, and then what he does with the film

1631
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:10,479
Speaker 8: and sort of the pauses and the characterizations, and then

1632
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:13,559
Speaker 8: also the violence, it cats everything in a very different

1633
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:17,280
Speaker 8: way and it makes if you're paying attention, the invisible

1634
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 8: becomes visible.

1635
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 6: You've mentioned The Shrouds quite a bit.

1636
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:23,759
Speaker 2: That is his most recent film out now book obviously

1637
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:27,519
Speaker 2: timed in conjunction with that. First off, my next band

1638
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 2: is definitely going to be called Corpse Voyeur. I don't

1639
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:33,759
Speaker 2: know if it matches the style of music I tend towards,

1640
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 2: but I love the name. We were just talking about

1641
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:38,439
Speaker 2: history of violence. There's a line in this film that

1642
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:42,040
Speaker 2: obviously you watch and if you know Kronoberg's work at all.

1643
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:44,200
Speaker 2: You kind of chuckle at early on when he's actually

1644
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:47,559
Speaker 2: on a date, a blind date, and vince A, Cassel's character, says,

1645
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 2: how dark do you want to get?

1646
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 6: Right?

1647
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 2: And all of Kroneberg's movies, especially A History of Violence,

1648
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 2: eventually get very very dark, and The Shrouds does as well,

1649
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 2: though I'm not sure if it gets quite as dark

1650
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 2: as a History of Violence. But let's see how I

1651
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:04,440
Speaker 2: do here. Haven't finished the book. We've got a main character, Cassel'skarsh,

1652
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:09,919
Speaker 2: who is He's lonely or alienated. He's obsessed with bodies,

1653
01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 2: with machinery, with technology, with experimentation. We have doppelgangers here

1654
01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:18,320
Speaker 2: in this movie. I would also say we've got I

1655
01:32:18,320 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 2: can only classify it as the deadest of deadpans senses

1656
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:23,960
Speaker 2: of humor. I don't remember who Karsh is talking to

1657
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 2: at one point, but this guy is just saying increasingly

1658
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:32,479
Speaker 2: outlandish things, and Carsha's responses are wow, wow, Wow, it's

1659
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:34,439
Speaker 2: just three wows in a row. I'd love to know

1660
01:32:34,479 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 2: if that was really like that in the screenplay. But

1661
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:39,439
Speaker 2: you also have the dentist in that kind of opening

1662
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 2: scene dropping the line do you want Jpex, which if

1663
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:45,479
Speaker 2: it isn't already that has to become a meme.

1664
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 6: Oh my god, it's so great.

1665
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:50,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, I want to hold off for a second

1666
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 2: on talking about what you've already alluded to, the autobiographical

1667
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:55,519
Speaker 2: elements of the film. Despite all my blind spots. How

1668
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:59,600
Speaker 2: did I do identifying what makes the Shrouds essentially Cronenbergian?

1669
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean I think he did.

1670
01:33:01,160 --> 01:33:03,000
Speaker 6: I think that scratch the surface.

1671
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 8: Like no, I do think how dark do you want

1672
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:08,479
Speaker 8: to go? And the Doppelgangers. The one thing I would

1673
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 8: say you missed is the horniness, Yeah, because it is

1674
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 8: such a unapologetically like the loneliness is not just a

1675
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:19,000
Speaker 8: spiritual loneliness.

1676
01:33:19,040 --> 01:33:22,040
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, my beautiful wife was so perfect, you know.

1677
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:25,559
Speaker 1: It's not like severance. It's very, very thirsty. And I

1678
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: love that.

1679
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:29,559
Speaker 2: Yes, he's fantasizing about her, dreaming about his dead wife

1680
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:32,360
Speaker 2: coming back in the flesh.

1681
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:34,840
Speaker 8: Yes, And I mean the you know, those scenes, those

1682
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:36,680
Speaker 8: dream sequences are so.

1683
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 1: There.

1684
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:41,960
Speaker 8: You know, she's sort of different pieces of her getting

1685
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:47,400
Speaker 8: get taken away, you know, amputated, cut away, operated on

1686
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:51,840
Speaker 8: and no longer his which is weird, but you know,

1687
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 8: the idea that her body is his, but you know

1688
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:59,000
Speaker 8: that they're so they're so together. I feel like even

1689
01:33:59,040 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 8: those dream sequences have this real sensuality and a familiarity

1690
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:06,479
Speaker 8: and kind of like a come in every day, like

1691
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 8: they're in their darkened bedroom. They're in the bedroom they

1692
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 8: used to share, and it's such a fertile place for

1693
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,320
Speaker 8: like that feeling of I can never go back.

1694
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:18,679
Speaker 1: But it's also obviously her.

1695
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:22,280
Speaker 8: You know, getting amputated, his favorite breast, getting caught off.

1696
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:25,720
Speaker 8: You know, obviously that's a metaphor for losing someone in

1697
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:30,799
Speaker 8: a very slow, kind of unstoppable way, and that eventually

1698
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:34,759
Speaker 8: he decides that it's not her disease taking these things away,

1699
01:34:35,439 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 8: and that she's just sort of an innocent victim of

1700
01:34:39,160 --> 01:34:45,120
Speaker 8: biology circumstance. It's that her doctor, and she's had this infidelity,

1701
01:34:45,920 --> 01:34:49,559
Speaker 8: or he believes she's had this infidelity. That's what actually

1702
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 8: took her away, and therefore he hates her and he

1703
01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:56,000
Speaker 8: can his grief, you know, because anger is part of grief.

1704
01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:58,720
Speaker 8: So instead of being angry at grief, he starts to

1705
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:02,360
Speaker 8: be angry at her and that allows him in part,

1706
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 8: to move on.

1707
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:06,480
Speaker 1: But he has to do this very elaborate story.

1708
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:10,599
Speaker 8: But that that transformation of elevating the wife and then

1709
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:14,320
Speaker 8: bringing her down, being like she deserved to die, essentially.

1710
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:16,240
Speaker 1: Like he doesn't say it, but that's in his head.

1711
01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:17,400
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1712
01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 8: I think that's a really crucial part of the story.

1713
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:25,720
Speaker 8: And again it's very weird, is like the ending. You

1714
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:30,040
Speaker 8: will be like wait, what right? And you you should

1715
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:31,080
Speaker 8: talk about it with your.

1716
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:34,439
Speaker 1: Friends, with your therapists. Your therapist emailed me on a

1717
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:37,280
Speaker 1: did answer any questions you might have? Definitely see it twice.

1718
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:39,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I need to see it twice, and I'll

1719
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:42,040
Speaker 2: just go back real quick what you were saying with

1720
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 2: a history of violence there too, or making that connection

1721
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:47,160
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit more aggressive.

1722
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 6: In these scenes.

1723
01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:52,320
Speaker 2: But the horniness, the sensuality, and also the familiarity of

1724
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 2: the husband and wife couple those scenes with Vigo and

1725
01:35:55,240 --> 01:35:58,280
Speaker 2: Maria Bello, that's something that's really striking in the history

1726
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:00,599
Speaker 2: of violence as well. So I do need to see

1727
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 2: it a second time, full disclosure. Maybe the most interesting

1728
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:08,639
Speaker 2: part of the Shrouds for me were the extra textual elements,

1729
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:11,479
Speaker 2: the autobiographical elements. And I don't know a ton, certainly

1730
01:36:11,479 --> 01:36:13,240
Speaker 2: don't know as much as you, but I know that

1731
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:18,040
Speaker 2: like Karsh, the main character Cronenberg lost his wife fairly recently,

1732
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:21,639
Speaker 2: and Diane Krueger may play two characters in the movie,

1733
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:26,720
Speaker 2: but Cassell, with his sharp angular features and that comback

1734
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:30,839
Speaker 2: stark white hair, is obviously a stand in for Cronenberg himself.

1735
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:35,879
Speaker 2: If somehow we weren't sure about the parallel, another character

1736
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 2: tells him this is the line of the film for me.

1737
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 6: You've made a career out of bodies.

1738
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:42,120
Speaker 1: Yes. And also he used to produce.

1739
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:44,600
Speaker 6: Industrial he did. You're right, that's another element, right, And

1740
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:45,839
Speaker 6: then even.

1741
01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:47,880
Speaker 1: Like during that date, you know, his playing day.

1742
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:49,839
Speaker 8: It's like, well, I can read things on the internet.

1743
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:53,320
Speaker 8: I've read some interviews, you can hid stuff from Google. Yeah,

1744
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:55,880
Speaker 8: about it, like, you don't know me, you don't actually

1745
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:56,600
Speaker 8: know me.

1746
01:36:56,880 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 2: He's letting us in a window into that psyche, right,

1747
01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:01,479
Speaker 2: But is this is it fair to say that this

1748
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:04,920
Speaker 2: is his most personal or explicitly personal film?

1749
01:37:05,479 --> 01:37:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like the Brute.

1750
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 8: I mentioned the brew before, but that's like the last one, okay.

1751
01:37:10,360 --> 01:37:15,160
Speaker 8: And I find it really moving that it is love

1752
01:37:15,439 --> 01:37:18,200
Speaker 8: and the loss of love, the end of a relationship

1753
01:37:18,280 --> 01:37:23,000
Speaker 8: that pulls this personal nature, this autobiographical nature out.

1754
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:25,479
Speaker 1: Of him, like obviously in Crimes of the future.

1755
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 8: Vigo Mortensen kind of looks like Kronenberg, and he's also

1756
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:33,719
Speaker 8: like a performance artist and performance art as a metaphor

1757
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:35,200
Speaker 8: for filmmaking.

1758
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:36,719
Speaker 1: But this is very.

1759
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:43,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it's chilling, how earnest and honest he

1760
01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:46,280
Speaker 8: is about this thing that so many people would be

1761
01:37:46,320 --> 01:37:49,559
Speaker 8: afraid to touch. I mean, I can't think of you know,

1762
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:52,280
Speaker 8: I keep making fun of Severance. I like Severance, but

1763
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:55,599
Speaker 8: I did not like the Gema episode. But you know,

1764
01:37:55,680 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 8: when people typically talk about losing his spouse, it is like,

1765
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 8: you know, dead wife Montage. You know, it's like this

1766
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:07,040
Speaker 8: idealized sort of beautiful thing, and here it's it's earthier,

1767
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:11,360
Speaker 8: it's more complicated, but there is still like this real pain.

1768
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 8: There's there's a level of pain that I don't think

1769
01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:15,799
Speaker 8: people are used.

1770
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:19,639
Speaker 1: To narrative film, and so, you know, and I really

1771
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:20,240
Speaker 1: respect that.

1772
01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:24,280
Speaker 8: And also the idea of a man who's been with

1773
01:38:24,360 --> 01:38:27,040
Speaker 8: one woman for many decades trying.

1774
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:28,800
Speaker 1: To restart his sex life.

1775
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 8: Oh, it's his new opportunity and all this stuff. I'm sorry,

1776
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:33,760
Speaker 8: I keep coming back to sex, but it's a really

1777
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:34,360
Speaker 8: important part.

1778
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:37,519
Speaker 6: We're talking about Cronenberg. After all, it is inevitable, and

1779
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:38,760
Speaker 6: I don't know.

1780
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:44,679
Speaker 8: You know, he's typically associated with you know, like exploding heads, good,

1781
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:49,680
Speaker 8: the leg wound and crash what. But this is very

1782
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:52,400
Speaker 8: I think what really kind of ties his films together

1783
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:56,799
Speaker 8: is a sense of love and that, you know, and sensuality,

1784
01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:59,719
Speaker 8: and I think that's you know, that's drowned out sometimes

1785
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:01,960
Speaker 8: by the butt wor stuff, which is unfortunate. And then

1786
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:06,600
Speaker 8: also he has a shockingly prescient view.

1787
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 1: Of the world.

1788
01:39:08,439 --> 01:39:13,519
Speaker 8: Kroneberg also a tessela driver, or he used to be. Yes,

1789
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 8: he's I assume he's gotten rid of it. I haven't

1790
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:19,559
Speaker 8: due asked, but yeah, it's kind of shocking.

1791
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 2: Of course, it would be a self driving car in

1792
01:39:21,840 --> 01:39:23,840
Speaker 2: a crona Bird film, right, that has to be like

1793
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 2: a plot element. Well, this was a blast, Violet, and

1794
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:32,200
Speaker 2: the book is incredible. It's a lovely looking book. I

1795
01:39:32,200 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 2: can't wait to get through it even more. Congratulations on it,

1796
01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:39,280
Speaker 2: and are you off anywhere wonderful to promote it next?

1797
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:39,639
Speaker 1: Yes.

1798
01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 8: So actually by the time people hear this, I will

1799
01:39:42,360 --> 01:39:44,960
Speaker 8: have been in Chicago, and then I'm going to be

1800
01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:48,479
Speaker 8: in Seattle for Siff the Stiff screening shrouds, and then

1801
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 8: I'm also going to be in la for a screening

1802
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:51,439
Speaker 8: of M.

1803
01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:53,600
Speaker 1: Butterfly Again I'm very underrated.

1804
01:39:53,680 --> 01:39:55,639
Speaker 6: Yeah, I like that films. That was one of those.

1805
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:57,880
Speaker 2: First I was a sinophile Dead Ringers, then into M.

1806
01:39:57,920 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 6: Butterfly.

1807
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:01,679
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah and I loved it. Then yes, the Irons connection,

1808
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:04,479
Speaker 2: uh huh Irons. He was he for a spell. And

1809
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:06,519
Speaker 2: maybe I still feel this way. If you asked me

1810
01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 2: back in ninety three who my favorite actor was, it

1811
01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:10,479
Speaker 2: was Jeremy I so no.

1812
01:40:10,439 --> 01:40:13,960
Speaker 1: And I mean at that time he was king. And

1813
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:15,920
Speaker 1: then I'm also going to be an Austin for a

1814
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:20,120
Speaker 1: screening of Crash wonderful. Then that'll be like June July.

1815
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:24,240
Speaker 2: Get the book wherever you get your books. Fair to say, okay, yes,

1816
01:40:24,320 --> 01:40:25,759
Speaker 2: and even if.

1817
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 1: You don't like reading it, it is very nice. It's

1818
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:29,320
Speaker 1: just an object you look at.

1819
01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:32,559
Speaker 6: Just put it on you is there's there's lovely pictures.

1820
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 2: It is a perfect coffee table book, but also with

1821
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:37,719
Speaker 2: a ton of great content, a lot of substance. They're Violet,

1822
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:41,559
Speaker 2: as we've touched on. So congrats again and recommend people

1823
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:44,599
Speaker 2: check the book out wherever they get their film books.

1824
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:55,160
Speaker 2: Thank you, Violent, thank you the Shroud there my thanks

1825
01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:57,479
Speaker 2: again to Violet Luca for that conversation. Her book is

1826
01:40:57,479 --> 01:41:01,599
Speaker 2: called David Cronenberg Clinical Try. It is available wherever you

1827
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 2: get your books. Josh, any takeaways from that conversation or

1828
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:07,920
Speaker 2: about The Shrouds. What did you make of Kroneinberg's latest.

1829
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:12,880
Speaker 3: I am very glad that Violet brought up the horniness

1830
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:17,479
Speaker 3: factor because of course that's, you know, something of a

1831
01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 3: through line for so many of Cronenberg's films. But I

1832
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 3: think it's also a critical element to The Shrouds because boy,

1833
01:41:25,120 --> 01:41:28,519
Speaker 3: the first maybe thirty maybe forty five minutes of this

1834
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:33,520
Speaker 3: is you know, deadpan funny in the way you guys discussed,

1835
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 3: but also a deeply mournful and captures the physicality of grief.

1836
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:46,240
Speaker 3: That's where the horningness comes in. And the fact that

1837
01:41:46,360 --> 01:41:52,640
Speaker 3: Kassel's character Karsh is missing his wife's literal body. I

1838
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:58,280
Speaker 3: don't know that that's something that other movies about grief

1839
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:03,200
Speaker 3: consider or depict or explore, but it makes absolute sense

1840
01:42:03,240 --> 01:42:06,519
Speaker 3: that Cronenberg would This is the filmmaker to do it right.

1841
01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:11,640
Speaker 3: And those dreams I took them to be dreams that

1842
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:15,519
Speaker 3: Karsh has of his wife played by Krueger, appearing in

1843
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:22,439
Speaker 3: their bedroom. She's naked and desecrated, really by these surgeries

1844
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:25,120
Speaker 3: she's had to endure from as part of this cancer treatment.

1845
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:29,559
Speaker 3: Are all the things you guys mentioned. I concur they

1846
01:42:29,680 --> 01:42:37,519
Speaker 3: are strangely cronenburgianly sexy, but disturbing and icky. And it's

1847
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:39,040
Speaker 3: not that they're all that on the same time, but

1848
01:42:39,120 --> 01:42:42,000
Speaker 3: they fluctuate. There's a series of them, two maybe three

1849
01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:45,559
Speaker 3: of these dreams, and they fluctuate among all those things,

1850
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:50,720
Speaker 3: as I would imagine someone mourning the loss of a

1851
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:55,280
Speaker 3: partner who they love for their intelligence and their humor

1852
01:42:55,800 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 3: and yes, their form. So so yeah, I'm glad you

1853
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:02,720
Speaker 3: guys touched on that. I would just say, you know,

1854
01:43:02,760 --> 01:43:05,559
Speaker 3: if there are people the Shrouds isn't getting ray of reviews.

1855
01:43:05,640 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 3: I think it's getting from what I've seen, kind reviews

1856
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 3: and a few people here and there who have really

1857
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 3: gone for it. But if you are someone who you know,

1858
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:18,280
Speaker 3: maybe Crimes of the Future Cronerberg's last film didn't really

1859
01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:21,840
Speaker 3: quite work for you, or you've lost touch with him,

1860
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:24,840
Speaker 3: you know, in recent years, I would say make time

1861
01:43:24,880 --> 01:43:29,080
Speaker 3: for The Shrouds. I don't think it's entirely successful, and

1862
01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:31,360
Speaker 3: it starts to lose its way for me, particularly in

1863
01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:38,240
Speaker 3: this emotionality that I discussed, but it's undoubtedly a Cronnberg

1864
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:42,880
Speaker 3: film that does what his best films do really well.

1865
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:44,439
Speaker 3: I think that's for me. Crimes of the Future I

1866
01:43:44,479 --> 01:43:45,960
Speaker 3: didn't find that to be the case. It was clearly

1867
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:48,160
Speaker 3: a Cronenberg film, but it just didn't click in that way,

1868
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:52,519
Speaker 3: and The Shrouds, when it's clicking as a Cronberg film,

1869
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:53,680
Speaker 3: absolutely does for me.

1870
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:56,920
Speaker 2: The Shrouds is currently playing in limited release. We hope

1871
01:43:56,920 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 2: you do get a chance to see it, and if

1872
01:43:58,240 --> 01:43:59,960
Speaker 2: you have any feedback, we'd love to hear from you.

1873
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:03,360
Speaker 2: Feedback at film spotting dot net. Josh, that's our show.

1874
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 3: If you want to connect with us on social, you

1875
01:44:05,320 --> 01:44:08,600
Speaker 3: can find Adam and the show on Instagram and Facebook

1876
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 3: and letterboxed. He's at film Spotting. I'm at those places

1877
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 3: as well. You can find me at Larsen on film.

1878
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:18,719
Speaker 3: We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support

1879
01:44:18,720 --> 01:44:21,360
Speaker 3: the show by joining the film Spotting Family at film

1880
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:24,360
Speaker 3: spottingfamily dot com. You can listen early in ad free.

1881
01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 3: You'll get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus shows, and access

1882
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:31,360
Speaker 3: to the entire show archive for show t shirts or

1883
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:34,519
Speaker 3: film Spottingfest posters or other merch go to film spotting

1884
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 3: dot Net slash shop.

1885
01:44:36,520 --> 01:44:39,160
Speaker 2: In the film Spotting Archive, you can find conversations about

1886
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:42,840
Speaker 2: other David Cronenberg films Videodrome, most recently as part of

1887
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 2: our Top five Films of nineteen eighty three. That was

1888
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:49,280
Speaker 2: show six six six Maps to the Stars on episode

1889
01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:52,760
Speaker 2: five twenty eight, Cosmopolis four eleven, A Dangerous Method with

1890
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,880
Speaker 2: Michael Phillips on three seventy seven, Eastern Promises episode one

1891
01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:00,360
Speaker 2: seventy seven from the Toronto International Film Festival, and Way

1892
01:45:00,360 --> 01:45:03,120
Speaker 2: Back episode forty two. You heard it in our conversation

1893
01:45:03,160 --> 01:45:07,360
Speaker 2: with a Violet Sam and I just gushing over a

1894
01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:12,679
Speaker 2: history of violence out wide. It's thunderbolts time, Josh seven

1895
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:16,639
Speaker 2: disillusion MCU cast offs find themselves ensnared in a death

1896
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:18,639
Speaker 2: trap that is definitely not a metaphor for the current

1897
01:45:18,640 --> 01:45:22,599
Speaker 2: state of the MCU. Thanks in limited release, the surfer

1898
01:45:22,800 --> 01:45:25,200
Speaker 2: Nicholas Cage returns to the idyllic beach of his youth

1899
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,240
Speaker 2: to surf for his son and is humiliated by a

1900
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:30,360
Speaker 2: group of locals, drawing him into a conflict that pushes

1901
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:33,439
Speaker 2: him to his breaking point. Drawing him into a conflict

1902
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:35,599
Speaker 2: that pushes him to his breaking point, like you could

1903
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:37,759
Speaker 2: just take that part and just copy paste it. Couldn't

1904
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:40,360
Speaker 2: you into almost any cage You.

1905
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:43,920
Speaker 3: See cage's face when you hear that phrase, you do letterboxed.

1906
01:45:44,360 --> 01:45:48,480
Speaker 2: Our friend Mitchell Bouprey, says director Lorc and Finnegan harnesses

1907
01:45:48,720 --> 01:45:51,599
Speaker 2: the almighty power of the cage for a fever dream.

1908
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:54,439
Speaker 2: He refuses to let us escape, so that sounds like

1909
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:56,200
Speaker 2: praise from Mitchell.

1910
01:45:56,479 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 6: Next week.

1911
01:45:57,360 --> 01:46:00,320
Speaker 2: It is our top twenty five films of the twenty

1912
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:01,800
Speaker 2: first century so far.

1913
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:05,080
Speaker 3: Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Disso and Sam

1914
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:08,160
Speaker 3: van Holgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go.

1915
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:12,439
Speaker 3: Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone

1916
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Speaker 3: at WBEAZ Chicago. More information is available at wbeaz dot org.

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Speaker 3: For film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 4: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

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Speaker 6: But fine.

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Speaker 2: Film Spotting is listeners supported. Join the Film Spotting Family

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Speaker 2: at film Spottingfamily dot com and get access to ad

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Speaker 2: free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for

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Speaker 2: the first time, all in one place, the entire Film

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Speaker 2: Spotting archive going back to two thousand and five. That's

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Speaker 2: a film Spottingfamily dot Com pantibly