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Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language.

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Speaker 1: I think it's appalling that the woman that was convicted

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Speaker 1: of accessary after the fact that came to our house

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Speaker 1: at the time of the murders and gave us information

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Speaker 1: we went to the police. Nobody has come to us

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Speaker 1: and wanted to ask us and question us further. She

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Speaker 1: told us incriminating facts, and no one has requestioned us.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Sleuth. I'm Linda Sawyer. Throughout this podcast, I

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Speaker 1: have attempted to share with our listeners various interviews with

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Speaker 1: people who knew the ex Disney princess Rachel Buffett prior

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Speaker 1: to her meeting Dan, during her time with Dan as

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Speaker 1: his fiancee, and her time subsequent to Dan Wozniak's arrest

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Speaker 1: and incarceration. But how much do we really know about

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Speaker 1: Dan prior to his courtship with Rachel Buffett? For that,

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Speaker 1: I have met several times over the last year's with

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Speaker 1: Kristen and John Spath, whose daughter Brittany dated Dan prior

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Speaker 1: to Rachel Buffett. Most of the people I've spoken to

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Speaker 1: have told me they believe Brittany was the love of

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Speaker 1: Dan's life. Kristen and John were like family to Dan,

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Speaker 1: as he referred to Kristen as Mama and John as

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Speaker 1: the big guy. They have stories you'll want to hear,

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Speaker 1: and you won't hear anywhere else but on Sleuth. So

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Speaker 1: today on Sleuth, I want to welcome Kristen and John

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Speaker 1: Spath to the program. Thank you first of all for

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Speaker 1: your time and coming here. Welcome, Welcome, And I think

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Speaker 1: more than any other guests I've had on the show,

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Speaker 1: I truly believe that both of you probably have the

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Speaker 1: best insights into the Dan Wozniac prior to his relationship

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Speaker 1: with Rachel Buffett. So I wanted you to share with

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Speaker 1: our listeners because I know you really had an intimate

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Speaker 1: knowledge of this person as a younger man. I mean,

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Speaker 1: from what I understand, he not only dated your daughter,

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Speaker 1: but there was talk of marriage at one point, and

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Speaker 1: you even thought that he could very well become your

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Speaker 1: son in law. He had a key to your home,

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Speaker 1: he went on vacations with you. I mean, this was

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Speaker 1: a gentleman you really thought you knew quite well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: really really did. He was part of our family, part

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Speaker 1: of the family. So more than anything, I mean I

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Speaker 1: know that you have said to me that when he

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Speaker 1: was part of your family. You never saw any signs

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Speaker 1: of a violent person or someone that was apabul of

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Speaker 1: what he ultimately did in this case. But since then,

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Speaker 1: since all that's happened that we know, the murders, the trial,

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Speaker 1: the conviction, him now on death row in San Quentin.

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Speaker 1: You said, you feel like you can start putting pieces

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Speaker 1: of the puzzle together, share with our listeners some of

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Speaker 1: some of the insights, and and let's also hear about

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Speaker 1: your experiences with him prior to Rachel and maybe we

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Speaker 1: should start there. How you met Daniel Wazniak. Actually, I

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Speaker 1: think you met him before I did, because he was

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Speaker 1: our daughter had joined the cast of our children's theater,

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Speaker 1: Orange County Children's Theater and it was music man. So

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Speaker 1: we met him there. And your daughter had attended Ocean

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Speaker 1: removed from Massachusetts from Boston. Yes, so she could attend

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Speaker 1: the high school performing arts. Yes, that was a dream

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Speaker 1: of hers. When we met him, he instantly we realize

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Speaker 1: is that this was a good person. I mean that

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Speaker 1: was our first impression. He was different than the average kid.

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Speaker 1: He was he was happy, go lucky, he was polite

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Speaker 1: and consider it, and it wasn't the normal teenager The

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Speaker 1: other thing too, is I think that what happened with

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Speaker 1: the with that theater community was they would have what

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Speaker 1: they called their alumni, would be persons such as Dan

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Speaker 1: who had graduated from high school, and they would have

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Speaker 1: them come back in alumni roles as mentors. So they

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Speaker 1: were using this was the Orange County Children's which actually

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Speaker 1: you read at one point, right, I was a president,

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Speaker 1: but not at the time then was there. It was

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Speaker 1: this was afterwards that I became president. So he was

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Speaker 1: well respected in that theater community that they were asking

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Speaker 1: him to come back in a mentoring role. The children

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Speaker 1: loved him, the parents loved him. So it wasn't just

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Speaker 1: your personal opinion of him, an impression of him. You're

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Speaker 1: saying that it was pretty much widespread throughout the theater community.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely absolutely. And then at some point

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Speaker 1: Dan actually ended up dating your daughter. Yes, it was

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Speaker 1: during the production while they were in rehearsals. And an

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Speaker 1: interesting is when they started dating, he had asked her

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Speaker 1: to keep it hush hush because he didn't want it

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Speaker 1: to interfere with the production because he had a love

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Speaker 1: interest in the actual production, in the cast, in the

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Speaker 1: cast and this was music man. Yes, do you know

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Speaker 1: the year? Do you remember the year? It was four

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Speaker 1: thousand and five, but you know what it was. It's

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Speaker 1: it's rehearsal started in October two thousand and four and

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Speaker 1: the production place a thousand and five. Okay, so, I

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Speaker 1: mean we were new to the theater world at the time,

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Speaker 1: but it kind of made sense to us. Were like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well all right, I get it, so we'll just keep

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Speaker 1: it quiet. And at the time Brittany wasn't thrilled with that,

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Speaker 1: but again she's like, Okay, this is what he asked.

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Speaker 1: Let's keep it quiet because we don't he doesn't want

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Speaker 1: us to ruffle feathers. Well, you said he was in

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Speaker 1: an advisory position, so maybe he felt or maybe you

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Speaker 1: could appreciate it exactly, it might seem inappropriate, exactly. That's

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Speaker 1: exactly his words to us us was he didn't want

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Speaker 1: it to become a distraction to the show. And that mate,

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Speaker 1: so we all honored it and went along. And were

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Speaker 1: you the music director not for this one? Now, now,

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Speaker 1: we would just have been in many instance, yes, County yes,

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Speaker 1: and other theaters, yeah, but this one we were parents volunteers,

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Speaker 1: and so we were around and what was nice as

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Speaker 1: we got to know the kids, we got to see

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Speaker 1: how he interacted with other kids, and at that point

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Speaker 1: we were okay with him dating our daughter. We thought

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Speaker 1: that he was just a few years older. Later, many

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Speaker 1: years later, a few years later, we found out how

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Speaker 1: how big of a difference, How big of a difference

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Speaker 1: was it. I think there was like four and a

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Speaker 1: half years difference. And because Brittany was still not seventy.

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Speaker 1: She was sixteen when she started dating Dan, and he

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Speaker 1: was not that he was not exactly the age that

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Speaker 1: we thought he was. We thought he was eighteen. So

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Speaker 1: but you also said to me, I believe at one

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Speaker 1: point that all the mothers were a bit envious because

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Speaker 1: they all wanted Dan to be dating their daughter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty People would come up and say, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: you out, You're lucky your daughter's dating him. And and

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Speaker 1: she also, I think of him that same sense of pride,

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Speaker 1: because from what I understand, when she came into audition

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Speaker 1: for the first time, and Brittany, your your daughter has

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Speaker 1: an incredible voice, right, I mean, it's a larger than

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Speaker 1: life voice. And she was a tiny little thing and

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Speaker 1: with this booming, beautiful voice, and from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: he was pretty proud because he was sort of in

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Speaker 1: the audience while she was auditioning, right, Yes, because he

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Speaker 1: came up to me during the auditions and said, Wow,

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Speaker 1: your daughter is amazing. So that was the initial attraction probably,

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Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, it was something he admired. And

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Speaker 1: I can also tell you that, as you know, I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed over three people to date on this case, and

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Speaker 1: so many people have said to me that they believe

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Speaker 1: that Brittany was the love of his life. And and

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Speaker 1: you you almost wonder if there was a different path

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Speaker 1: he took. But she found out that he was cheating, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's what ended it. Yeah, Well, it was

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Speaker 1: even more other than that. It was just she the

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Speaker 1: lies that he would tell, it was so consistent, and

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Speaker 1: it was just so it became like part of their

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Speaker 1: everyday life that she just couldn't deal with that anymore.

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Speaker 1: She didn't know what the truth was. If he had

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Speaker 1: a hamburger, he would literally lie and say it had

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Speaker 1: a hot dog for no reason. That's what his friends

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Speaker 1: in high school said. That the lies in the beginning

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Speaker 1: were so ridiculous and unnecessary, right, well, completely unnecessary. I

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Speaker 1: think I've I've said that Kristen, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: I've ever made this remark to you, but if I

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Speaker 1: was going to write a book about Dan, I would

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Speaker 1: title at the Master of the Seat. M hm. So

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Speaker 1: you you often caught him in lies as well the

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Speaker 1: we caught him in lies and then, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's one of those stories like when you first hear

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Speaker 1: on the news that you know that the guy next

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Speaker 1: door became a murderer. They they interviewed the neighbors and

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Speaker 1: everybody said, oh, I couldn't believe it. He was such

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Speaker 1: a great guy and everything else. We had that initial

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Speaker 1: reaction initial let me stress that initial reaction ourselves was

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Speaker 1: we couldn't believe it. However, when we started putting pieces together,

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Speaker 1: we started We're going, oh, we could see that was

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Speaker 1: a lie. We can see that was the seat, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I had developed a saying about Dan he couldn't

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Speaker 1: tell the truth. If it worked better. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: you think that habit, or that tendency he had to lie,

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Speaker 1: developed from the relationship he had with his mother. I

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Speaker 1: have often thought that, and I think that she she

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Speaker 1: put him on this pedestal and Danny was everything to her,

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Speaker 1: and I think that he felt this is my opinion,

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Speaker 1: that he felt he could never achieve, that he would

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Speaker 1: never be exactly what she wanted him to be. So

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Speaker 1: I think he had pressure. It was too high. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think that was a constant pressure. And he loved

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Speaker 1: his dad, loved his dad. I don't think he feeled

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Speaker 1: that same warmth with his mother, and I think there

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Speaker 1: was almost like a fear. Yeah. Well, the lyne seemed

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Speaker 1: to be predicated on the fact that there was no

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Speaker 1: girl that was good enough in Maryanne was absolutely absolutely

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Speaker 1: he had to lie to to see these girls too,

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Speaker 1: even Brittany, who she had a relationship with. You guys, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean you did share some some time together, as

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Speaker 1: well as go on a vacation together. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: that experience because it was quite telling it speaking. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: it was her sophomore year, and it was Dan's idea

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Speaker 1: that we all take a whose vacation together and he

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Speaker 1: wanted to surprise britt that he was coming. We just

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Speaker 1: told Brittany that we were taking around a cruise and

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Speaker 1: she was all sad because she was gonna miss vacation

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Speaker 1: week and not be with Dan because we were going

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Speaker 1: on a family vacation. When in fact, Dan and his

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Speaker 1: parents were coming. So his parents and I and John,

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Speaker 1: we're all in cahoots together. We were going to surprise

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Speaker 1: her on board that day and Dan and then we're

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Speaker 1: going to pop out. And we did, and we had

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Speaker 1: we had a great vacation time. It was a cruise.

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Speaker 1: It was a cruise. How long was it for? About

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Speaker 1: five days? I think about five days? And where did

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Speaker 1: you go? Well, it's what they call a repositioning cruise.

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Speaker 1: They were they were taking the ship from San Diego

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Speaker 1: to Uma Victoria, Canada to start the summer season accent Vancouver,

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Speaker 1: of starting the summer sea and of taking people to

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Speaker 1: Alaska on the ship. So we went on what was

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Speaker 1: called a repositioning cruise from San Diego to Vancouver. And

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Speaker 1: who arranged the details? I think Dan actually North. Well,

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Speaker 1: we know Marianne. Marianne arranged because I know that marian

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Speaker 1: Waznick was a big cruiser because she used to take

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Speaker 1: her family and the boys and their friends as well,

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like she perhaps was the planner in

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Speaker 1: this case. Yeah, they had a travel agent they worked

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Speaker 1: with arranged all their cruises. And if I recall correctly, Um,

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Speaker 1: she just said, well, let my travel agent arrange for

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Speaker 1: all of us, and that's what we did. But that's

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Speaker 1: how comfortable she was with both of you at the time, right,

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Speaker 1: and when you're sharing a holiday together at the time,

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Speaker 1: I got as intimate as it gets. Yeah, yep. And

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Speaker 1: the cruise went wonderful. We had lots of fun until

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Speaker 1: and then we we we ended up the cruise had ended.

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Speaker 1: We were in Vancouver, Vancouver and spending the night, we

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Speaker 1: had tickets to go see Tony and Maria's wedding. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we went all together to that and every it seemed

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Speaker 1: like everybody had a great time. And that's a total

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Speaker 1: group thing. It was before that that something had switched,

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Speaker 1: before that you had to see her or something right. Well,

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Speaker 1: what happened is one of the I think it's like

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Speaker 1: the second of the last day of the cruise. Her

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Speaker 1: and I had gone to tea, just her and I

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Speaker 1: and we were talking about things, past times of mothers

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Speaker 1: and special events in our child's life. And I happened

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Speaker 1: to mention Brittany sweet sixteen that we had taken it

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Speaker 1: to New York City and I said that was last

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Speaker 1: year or something like that was just in conversation. So

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Speaker 1: you put an age to her, yes, a number. Never

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Speaker 1: did I know that Dan had. It was a double lie.

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Speaker 1: Dan had lied to us and made himself younger to us,

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Speaker 1: and he had lied to his parents and made Brittany older.

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Speaker 1: So it was a double eye that I had. No

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Speaker 1: we had no clue. So that day it revealed to

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Speaker 1: Marianne Rosniac that Brittany was much younger than she thought.

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Speaker 1: So the next day, so she's starting to think, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I may interrupt for a moment, we didn't know.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, Mary Anne stopped talking to us

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Speaker 1: for the rest of the cruise. But we but we

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Speaker 1: didn't know why that what we thought it was because

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Speaker 1: Darrell had gotten sick and she was upset because it

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Speaker 1: was that much of a drastics shift. We were playing

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Speaker 1: shuffle board one day and the next day not speaking

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Speaker 1: to us. This is the day that we were getting off.

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Speaker 1: So she thought you were She thought you knew, yes,

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Speaker 1: And if you know, let me fast forward quite a bit. Okay,

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Speaker 1: after after Dan had been arrested and um the trial

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Speaker 1: didn't know he was No, he was still in r

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Speaker 1: he was there for five years. We we ran into

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Speaker 1: Dan's mother and father at a show one of a

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Speaker 1: theater show, and she had spoken tests in years. She

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Speaker 1: hadn't no, no, and she she broke down. She apologized

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Speaker 1: when she came over to you, and yes, she says,

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Speaker 1: I am so sorry. She says, I didn't know, and

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Speaker 1: that's when she explained what she knew about the lie

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Speaker 1: and deceit from Dan. We had no idea. You know,

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Speaker 1: how simple would it have been. I'm sorry, but how

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Speaker 1: simple would have been to say, as an adult to

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Speaker 1: two other adults, I didn't know this? And this disturbs me.

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Speaker 1: This bothers me. The age difference. And I was told

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Speaker 1: one thing by my son, in other words, to go

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Speaker 1: into that disconnected, detached, cold status without giving you any indications.

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Speaker 1: So odd she and she used your exact words. She says,

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Speaker 1: I was worried about statutory rape being involved in this,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I wanted the whole thing ended and

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Speaker 1: over with. And then what she said, I'd explain herself

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Speaker 1: right behavior. What she said after that, I'll never forget.

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Speaker 1: And she had said she had turned to us, and

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Speaker 1: she had said, if I only had known what he

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Speaker 1: ended up with, that was such a small thing, meaning

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Speaker 1: referring to Brittany and his age yes, she says, wow.

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Speaker 1: She because if I had only known, she goes what

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Speaker 1: I would have traded to have. That is a problem.

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Speaker 1: Let's see. That goes back to my observation of Dan's

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Speaker 1: need to lie. I mean, starting out with innocuous, silly lies,

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Speaker 1: too serious lies that I think ultimately really did dictate

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Speaker 1: his personality disorder. And it had to do with having

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Speaker 1: to lie to her all the time. And I remember

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Speaker 1: him telling me several times he says, my mother has

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Speaker 1: never liked anybody that I've dated, and never will. He says,

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Speaker 1: no one will ever be good enough. And you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly the same thing that Tim Wozniak said to

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Speaker 1: me when I interviewed him about his girlfriends. I mean,

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Speaker 1: at some point, you have to give your kids space

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Speaker 1: to breathe. I think you even told me once when

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Speaker 1: Dan was in your presence, that the phone would just

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Speaker 1: be ringing off the hook from her, that she would

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Speaker 1: call sometimes a hundred times a day, and he would

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Speaker 1: try to ignore, but then would lie if he was

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Speaker 1: in a place where she wouldn't want him to be. Well.

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Speaker 1: Part of that, looking back now with from the Master

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Speaker 1: of the Seat, is that he would say it was

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Speaker 1: his mother, but I often wondered if he had some

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Speaker 1: other girls dangling on the side that you know, he

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Speaker 1: never showed it's his phone and said this is my mother.

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Speaker 1: He would always just say, oh, it's my mother again.

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Speaker 1: She won't leave me alone. But didn't you also say

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Speaker 1: that Brittany had experiences when she'd call there, and that

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Speaker 1: Marian was very cold to her and wouldn't allow her

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Speaker 1: to connect with the whole time they were dating. I

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Speaker 1: think she went over there maybe once or twice at

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Speaker 1: the most because she felt so uncomfortable because she was

305
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Speaker 1: not allowed. She wasn't allowed. No, no, no, no no, I

306
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Speaker 1: wasn't allowed. After the cruise, there was times like we

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Speaker 1: tried to talk to Marian and say, hey, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about this? We would call, she would

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Speaker 1: hang up, we would call. She blocked on you guys.

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Speaker 1: She would blocked all of our phones, our cell phones,

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Speaker 1: our house phone, Brittany's phone, she blocked us. We weren't

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Speaker 1: allowed to talk to her, wouldn't couldn't communicate. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have to say, I've known you guys now for

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Speaker 1: nearly three years, and I mean you guys couldn't be nicer, educated, lovely,

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Speaker 1: people to be around and with a lot of integrity.

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Speaker 1: I can't understand how she wouldn't have just said, I

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Speaker 1: want to sit down and talk to you both and

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Speaker 1: tell you what's on my mind, tell you what I'm feeling,

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Speaker 1: my concerns, because then you at least have the information

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Speaker 1: to go from there. Right. And as a mother, I

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Speaker 1: would have welcomed that, you know, it takes a village.

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Speaker 1: I would have welcomed a mother saying, hey, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Do you not know that my son is this old? Right?

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Speaker 1: So it seems like it would have been such a

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Speaker 1: simple way to handle it versus all this questioning and

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Speaker 1: being in the dark, and then of course the lies,

327
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Speaker 1: and and and probably feeling like is there something wrong

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Speaker 1: with us? Or is it Brittany or what I mean?

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Speaker 1: We sat for years wondering, and then finally that day

330
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Speaker 1: that we saw her, it was revealed to us. But

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Speaker 1: way too late, way too late. Yea. You know one

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Speaker 1: of the lies of Dan that, let me say this,

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Speaker 1: one of what I believe to be one of Dan's

334
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 1: lies was every year on Christmas Eve, we have a

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Speaker 1: big open house at our house, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that would come, would be in the entertainment industry, musicians,

337
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Speaker 1: singers and so forth, and it would be almost an

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Speaker 1: open mic night at our house on Christmas Eve and

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Speaker 1: everybody would be singing and everything else. And I can

340
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Speaker 1: remember Christmas Eve, Dan said, well, I can't come unto

341
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Speaker 1: eleven o'clock. I have to be with my mother and

342
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Speaker 1: my dad. My mother requires that I attend a family function.

343
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Speaker 1: And I sort of thought that was a little bit odd,

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Speaker 1: because you know, once your children reach that age, you've

345
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: got to start releasing. You can't control and say, well,

346
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Speaker 1: you're going to be here, you know. And looking back now,

347
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Speaker 1: I don't know if that was a restriction Mary Anne

348
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: placed on or if he was going somewhere else on

349
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: his own accord and just using her as an excuse. Well,

350
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Speaker 1: I know that from what I understand from cousins and

351
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: other people that were at events like that in the

352
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 1: laws Niak clan, that he was very much a big

353
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Speaker 1: part of whatever family oriented events they did attend. And

354
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Speaker 1: I mean he was someone that did magic tricks for

355
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Speaker 1: them and sang for them. And Tim did also share

356
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: with me that she was very particular, especially she was

357
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Speaker 1: a very religious woman, and especially at something like a

358
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Speaker 1: Christmas holiday. I could almost see her laying the edict,

359
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,400
Speaker 1: laying down the law that this is what you had

360
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: to attend she I mean she had the same thing

361
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Speaker 1: about Mass every Sunday and then the family dinner. I mean,

362
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: they had structure when it came to a religious type events.

363
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Speaker 1: So in that regard, I almost think that he might

364
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: have been telling the truth in that. In that respect,

365
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: there was a lot I'm sorry I jumped on you.

366
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Speaker 1: There was a lot of things that Marianne stipulations that

367
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: Marianne would put that came into play with the breakdown,

368
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: I say, of Brittany and Dan's relationship and when being

369
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Speaker 1: I'm going to say about a year and a half

370
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Speaker 1: into their dating period, all of a sudden, he says,

371
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Speaker 1: my mom says that I'm we're seeing too much of

372
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Speaker 1: each other and I can only see you. I think

373
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Speaker 1: it was three days a week. I think it was

374
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Speaker 1: less than that, two days a week or something that

375
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 1: had to be like almost like appointments. Was this before

376
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: the cruise where were no after? After? This was like

377
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: the beginning of the end for Brittany Um and Dan,

378
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: And so all of a sudden, it was just having

379
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: to jump through this hoop and jump through this hoop,

380
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: and there's more stipulations and more rules, and you can't

381
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 1: call the house, you can't do this. We can only

382
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: see a couple of times a week. And and that's where.

383
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: And now in retrospect we look back and we go, Okay,

384
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Speaker 1: was it all Marianne? Was there rather girls combination? Was

385
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: it just another second life he was living. I mean,

386
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: it sounds almost as if the only way he could

387
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: escape that was to live a second life, absolutely and

388
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: become other people for himself. I mean, just too. And

389
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: I think he lived multiple lives. I don't think that

390
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: he had a life. I think there was a life

391
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Speaker 1: with mom and dad, there was a life with Brittany

392
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Speaker 1: and us, and then I think there's a third and

393
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: fourth life too, the bad boy life. Absolutely absolutely At

394
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: the time do we didn't think that? And that's where

395
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: I think the personality disorder develops from there. You know,

396
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: the shuffling, the lying, the shifting, the changing of who

397
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: you are depending on who you're with, and then you know,

398
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: ultimately the drugs. But we'll get into that. I know that, John,

399
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 1: You've told me that Dan and you spoke and there

400
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: was this conversation that if anything ever happened to you,

401
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: God forbid that. Dan said he would take care of Kristen.

402
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: He obviously felt a very special bond with you, Kristen,

403
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: and I think in many ways looked to you as

404
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: more of a mother figure that he felt he could

405
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: be himself around. He always called me Mama, and he

406
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: said I'm more or I was more of a mother

407
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: to him than his own mother. And he would say

408
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: that so often. He would come to me for advice.

409
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: He always called John the big Guy, and I think

410
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: he viewed him as a dad, but he loved his

411
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: dad so much that he create created another. The big

412
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: Guy was his way of saying dad, because he didn't

413
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: want to lose. He didn't care for Darryl, his father.

414
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody said that when Darryl would show up

415
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: at the theater for shows, he always made because Darrel

416
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: walked with a cane and he always made sure that

417
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: he was comfortable and his seating was They never missed.

418
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, they never missed a performance. Like Daryl was

419
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: both of them. But oppression, yeah, especially Darrell. In fact,

420
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: Dan had already made the remark to me that he

421
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: hated the way his mother treated his absolutely, that was

422
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: one thing that she was the one that ruled the roost. Absolutely,

423
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: didn't he even when you had that cruise, didn't you

424
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: see him at some point and he said something along

425
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: lines of I'm sorry she's not herself today, or trying

426
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: to apologize for her behavior and yes, cover up for it. Yeah,

427
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: And when we were when we sat at that Tony

428
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: and Maria's or Tony and Tina whatever it was the

429
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: theater Tony and Tina's wedding, Darryl even apologized and made

430
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: excuses because her behavior was just so horrible. They were

431
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: both uncomfortable. He was embarrassed. Both Dan and Darryl are

432
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and embarrassed. I think that you even talked about

433
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: the way he was with you and the way he

434
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: could be him self around you. He was there for

435
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: you in some pretty dark times in your life, especially

436
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: when your dad got very sick. One thing that always

437
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: stood out in my mind and is something he said

438
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: to me one day. And I had always said, you're

439
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: always so happy because he always had a smile everybody

440
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: that ever knew him. I don't think many people saw

441
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: him not smiling. And he said, he goes, I'm like

442
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: a clown. He goes, it's all on the outside, but

443
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: the inside is unhappy, and that just struck me. From

444
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: that day forward, I always kind of thought, what else

445
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: is going on. I didn't have a clue, but it

446
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: just bothered me. And I used to think that it

447
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: was just his mom and the pressure she put on him.

448
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: With me um, I felt that he wanted to do

449
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: all the things that he didn't get to do with

450
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: his mom. And you would be able to sit and

451
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: have coffee, he'd say, come on, let's go uh shopping

452
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: uh if or we'd go pick up Brittany from school.

453
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: We just got to do things that you do with

454
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: a son. But I don't think he had that with

455
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: his mother. And he would just tell me how much

456
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: it meant to me that I had I put that

457
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: time aside for him, and he expressed that in what

458
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 1: you told me a very compassionate way, especially when your

459
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: dad was sick, that he was there with you with

460
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: the oncologist, and I know I think that was actually

461
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: I was having iron infusions and it was a lengthy

462
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: period of time. I went. We were there for like

463
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: six or eight hours one day or something, and he

464
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: came and he sat with me. There was at the

465
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: oncologist office, and he sat with me and he brought

466
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: a picnic and we watched movies, and I think you

467
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: were there for part of it. John was there for

468
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: part of it. Then John had to leave, so Dan said, no,

469
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm coming, I'm coming. So he was dedicated. You know,

470
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: if I needed a ride to something, if I wasn't

471
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: feeling good, Dan was there. I'm take you just like

472
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: a son with absolutely Brittany at the time. One of

473
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: the things that I haven't shared with a lot of

474
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: people is that at one time my dad, my father,

475
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: made a remark to me saying, I know, I never

476
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: have to worry about your mother as long as you're alive.

477
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: And I that's that's a big compliment for a father

478
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: to give to a son, Okay, And I never expressed

479
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: that in words, but for a period of time I

480
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: felt the same way about Dan, where when I would

481
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: see how he acted with Kristen, that a son mother

482
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: son relationship going just seems so healthy and so good

483
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: and so generous, and um, he was in your heart,

484
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: he was in my heart. Yeah. As our friends all

485
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: know is that I'm nineteen years older than Kristen, so

486
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: I've thought a lot of I think about things like that,

487
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: so it gave me a good feeling. But then fast

488
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: forward in the story here, I started to see the

489
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: deceit coming into play, and you had an experience with Daniel.

490
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: It occurred the weekend of the murders, but you had

491
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: no idea yet that the murders had taken place. And

492
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that event because I really

493
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: believe that that is indicative of what you just said

494
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: about how he felt about you and how you felt

495
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: about him. He was coming to you, and in many

496
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: ways in that event, I feel like in that moment,

497
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: he was coming to you for the ultimate advice because

498
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: he had just committed two murders for a woman he

499
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: wasn't sure he was ready to go further down the

500
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: road within his life. And I want to talk about

501
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: it because I know that for you, that really is

502
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: something that haunts you to this day. It was the

503
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: it was the sun. I'm just for our listeners going

504
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: to capture the time frame. Dan had killed sam Hair

505
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: Friday afternoon in the attic of the Liberty Theater that

506
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: was on May one that evening until the early hours

507
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: of the Saturday morning. He then Lord Julie Cavulishi to

508
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: Sam Hair's apartment and killed her at twelve or four am.

509
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: He then came to you down in southern California in

510
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: your townhouse and on Sunday the second was it right?

511
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: And he's I think Brittany and Kristen you were up

512
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, right, she was auditioning for American Idol. No,

513
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: she was auditioning for a show. She had gotten a

514
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: callback for a theater show. Yeah. So we had gone

515
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: up there for the weekend, and so he knew you

516
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 1: were away, and he yes, wanted to speak to you alone.

517
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: He called us. Actually, he called Britney and I and said, hey,

518
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: I know you guys on around. He goes, but is

519
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: dad around. I'm gonna the big guy is a big,

520
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: big guy around. I'm gonna go have dinner with him.

521
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: I want to have dinner with him, and says, yeah,

522
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: get him a call. He's around. And so take us

523
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: back to that time. Well, Dan called me and he said, hey,

524
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: big guy, I understand Mom and Brittany are out of

525
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: town and you're batching it this weekend. He says, uh,

526
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: what do you say? I stopped by, will have a

527
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: couple of cigars and put some stakes on the girl.

528
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, it's great, and it's not I mean,

529
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: this was not a surprise we have He and I

530
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: had done this before, this kind of thing, so I, um,

531
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: you would have lunch with him off. Sure, So he

532
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: came down to the house that that evening and we

533
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: had in the same weekend of the murders. Yeah, and

534
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: of course not not not I didn't know any of this,

535
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: you know. And but the conversation we we went on.

536
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: We talked about some things in general, and then he

537
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: came down to the conversation of being about he had

538
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: he was having second thoughts about getting married. It was

539
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: almost he was saying to me. He was explaining that

540
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: he almost didn't feel strong enough, that he was too

541
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: weak to call the wedding off, that he didn't know

542
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: what to do. It's someone that didn't like confrontation. Yes, absolutely,

543
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: And he said to me that he was wrestling with

544
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: this all and and he admired you so much because

545
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: you took you would always take the bull by the

546
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: horns and fix whatever problems your family had, and you'd

547
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: face anything you had to to do that. And he

548
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: think he was looking for that kind of strength. Well,

549
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: actually we had another conversation about that very thing at

550
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: one time. But that night I said to him, and

551
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: I used a phrase. I said, Dan, it is a

552
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: lot easier to get married than it is unmarried, and

553
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: meaning you get into a marriage, you have children and

554
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: everything else. You know, think about this, Dan, before you're

555
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: going on. You need to think about that. And we

556
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: left it at that. We we left the conversation at that.

557
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: But the other point I said, I'll get back to

558
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: you with it is at one time Dan had made

559
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: the remark to me he said, I wish I could

560
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: be like you. He says, you just stand up for things,

561
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: what you believe in and how you feel. And he

562
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: says I have a hard time with that. He says,

563
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: I never got into a fight in school when I

564
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: was a kid, because said he was bullied. He said

565
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: he was bullied. He says, yeah, and everything, and he says,

566
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: I wish I could have been I could be more

567
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,479
Speaker 1: like you. And so that was you tell me even

568
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: that he said, you know, I'm a big guy, but

569
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: I'm afraid to fight because I'm just not one that

570
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: can handle confrontation. I don't and I think Darryl. Probably

571
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 1: he saw in Darryl a father that I wasn't able

572
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 1: to really stand up to Mary and either, so when

573
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: he met you and saw you as a father figure,

574
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: he honestly probably wanted to be more like you. Yes,

575
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: I'm looking back now, I'm seeing that, I'm seeing that

576
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: he came to me wanting to know that. I'm thinking now,

577
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: is how do I stand up for myself? How do

578
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: I be you? Yeah? How do I stand up for myself?

579
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: And it wasn't that I'm sitting here being bragging about

580
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: being a tough guy and all that kind of stuff.

581
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: But I am the kind of guy that draws a

582
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: line in the sand of saying this is where it stops,

583
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: and this is this is boundaries. You had said to

584
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: me when we had first met and told me this

585
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: story that that Dan really was reaching out to you

586
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: because he said he didn't know how to defend himself

587
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: against the woman he was about to marry, that he

588
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: didn't know how to deal with issues and concerns that

589
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: he had. And I think he has felt like he

590
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: was sort of becoming his father in a way, and

591
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: he really wanted to be more more like you. And

592
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: so I think he was reaching out for you to

593
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: help guide him, how to maybe get him out of

594
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: the predicament he saw himself in. Well, I was I

595
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: would never be one to say to Dan, oh, yeah,

596
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: I call this marriage off. I would never be one

597
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: to say something like that. But what I I'm the

598
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: kind of person I like to lay it on the

599
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: table and say here's what you can think about. And

600
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: we went on to talk about my statement of it's

601
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: easier to marry, but it's harder to get unmarried, and

602
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: going on to explain those things and saying, we're talking

603
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: about you're picking a woman to meaning Rachel, to become

604
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: your wife, and you're getting ready to spend a lifetime

605
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: with her, and um, you're gonna walk a long time together,

606
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have children, and you need to think

607
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: about all those things. And if you're not comfortable with

608
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: that right now, don't be bullied into getting married. Just

609
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: call it off. And how did he respond to that?

610
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: He closed back up, He closed back up, and uh,

611
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: he couldn't do it. Yeah, we sort of ended the

612
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: evening on that note, really, and uh, Dan said goodbye,

613
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: and you know, we bid each other goodbye, and he

614
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: went on he had in the last forty eight hours

615
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: murdered two of his friends. Did you have any indication

616
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: in his demeanor that he had committed such horrible crimes? No, none, whatsoever?

617
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: I did looking back now, I um I saw nervous.

618
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: He was nervous, but again I chalked that up to

619
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: being the pre wedding groom jitter. Yeah, I mean, but

620
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: that makes sense. You wouldn't jump to So who did

621
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: you murder today? Yes, exactly, And it's totally illogical that

622
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: you would go there. What did you both feel when

623
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: you finally did here what he had done that weekend? Well,

624
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: first of all, we heard about it before it really

625
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: hit the news. We have a friend that works for

626
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: one of the local radio stations and he saw it

627
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: come across their news bulletin that he had been arrested.

628
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: They were the ones that called us and let us

629
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: know because we were on We were supposed to attend

630
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: his wedding, and we were on and off of defense

631
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: of whether we were going to go or not. Did

632
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: Brittany want you to go or did she not care?

633
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: She she didn't really want us to go, but at

634
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 1: one point she said, ah, we should all crash it.

635
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: It was like, you know, that's Brittany. Well, Brittany also

636
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: played a role to a certain extent because they did

637
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: re establish a relationship and an affair while he was

638
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: engaged to Rachel. Yeah, we didn't know anything about that,

639
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: So she didn't share that with you. No, we knew

640
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: that they remained friends for a while after they they

641
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: broke up. No, they weren't friends. They didn't speak and

642
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: then over the years we always stayed friends with him.

643
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: And then over the years then they started talking and

644
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: they became friends. And that's what all we knew. It

645
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: was just friendship. So did she eventually tell you that

646
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: she had started a little fling with him at some point?

647
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: It was always coffee, that kind of thing. Okay, so

648
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: coffee was sex. That she did share with me that

649
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: she was actually going to meet him again. I think

650
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: they met a few times, and the time that she

651
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: was thinking about meeting him again, she said, I decided

652
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: to cancel for some reason. I don't even know why.

653
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: She has no explanation for why. It was just an

654
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: instinct she had. She canceled, And she said it was

655
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: maybe a few days later that she found out he

656
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: was arrested for for murdering these people, and she said,

657
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. I was at a nail salon and

658
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: I I excused myself and went into the bathroom and

659
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: threw up. I just couldn't believe that I had ever

660
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: been with this person, and then back with this person again,

661
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: and but again. It's the same thing with Dan coming

662
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 1: to see you the weekend of the murders. I mean,

663
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: you just you don't imagine. You don't jump to Oh,

664
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: Dan's nervous because he just killed two of his friends

665
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: and shopped their bodies up in the attic of the

666
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 1: theater he performed in. It's so surreal that how how

667
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: could you imagine? Right? We were in complete, obviously in

668
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: disbelief for the longest time. And I'm going to jump forward.

669
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: For me personally, the only way I've been able to

670
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: h for lack of a better word, accept this is

671
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: I've had to consider him as he's gone, he's past,

672
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 1: he's dead. That is the only way my brain can

673
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: handle thinking of this. And and I'm not one to

674
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: recapitulate things over and over. When something's happened, I talk

675
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: it out, because you need to talk it out, and

676
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: he'll and then I move on this in coming here

677
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 1: today is extremely hard. Do we have to relive all this?

678
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: And we talked for a long time. Thank you. This

679
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: wasn't easy and it wasn't something we stayed quiet for

680
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: the longest time. People would talk about it and we'd

681
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: kind of shy away because this was such a personal loss.

682
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: But you did have another experience with visitors, unexpected visitors

683
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 1: that prompted you to go to the police. You did

684
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: finally say it's time we have to talk to someone,

685
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: an authority because of our concerns. And I'd like to

686
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: share with our listeners now that event which took place.

687
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: It was the Saturday after Dan was arrested. Dan was

688
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: arrested Wednesday evening for accessory after the fact because the

689
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: Coast of Masa police believed that Sam was on the

690
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: run and Dan was covering up from and helping him.

691
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: And then by the next afternoon, Dan had himself confessed

692
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: to the murders of killing both Sam and Julie. That's

693
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: Saturday you had a knock on your door. Well, actually, when,

694
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: why don't you tell the story? We were at we

695
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: had gone to a picnic at some friends house and um,

696
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: we were there when Brittany got the call from Rachel

697
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: wanted to come meet her. Oh God, and she was

698
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: going to come to our house, and we said, you're

699
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: not meeting anyone alone right now, because we didn't know

700
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: where all these cards were going to play out, so

701
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: to speak. You knew that Dan was arrested, and and

702
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: you knew that there was murders involved, right, And I'm sorry.

703
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: And one of our conditions that we accepted the invitation

704
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: to that picnic was everybody there was in the theater community,

705
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: and we accepted that we are not going to talk

706
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: about Dan at that because we didn't want to go

707
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: unless everybody was on the same board. We're not discussing this.

708
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: It hurts too much quiet And because those people also

709
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: knew how close we were, did right. Yeah. And and

710
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: one of the things we had we've done during this

711
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: whole period of time is we we maintained a very

712
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: low profile on even knowing Dan. And it's not that

713
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: we were denying it. We were not a couple that

714
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: wanted to rush to fame where everybody heard us talk

715
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: and everybody heard us, Oh, we knew Dan, and we

716
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: knew better than that. And I like, all of a

717
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: sudden It was a competition of yeah, and we saw

718
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: this happening and we went, oh my gosh, you know,

719
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: we can't believe it's turning into this circus. It was

720
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: too hurtful for us. This was a thing that caused

721
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: us pain. I mean, you really did believe that Brittany

722
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: was going to be married to him and he was

723
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 1: going to be in your family. And after they broke up,

724
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: we still we considered him a good friend. He still

725
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 1: made the effort to Yeah, we saw him all the time,

726
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: even even the times when Brittany and him were no

727
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: longer speaking, he was still calling us. And and why

728
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: did you continue that relationship? Because I always felt like

729
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: he was a son. He loved him. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

730
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: do you still love him? I've never given that thought.

731
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: I mean, he has a place in my heart. I

732
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: I can't I can't give you an honest answer. I

733
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 1: don't love the person he's turned into. I don't love

734
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: anything that he's done. Um, maybe this is a good

735
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: time he was read the mother. Maybe this is a

736
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: good time to read the Mother's Day card he sent

737
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: you this. I got this card, and this card caused

738
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 1: me so much pain. I went for a good year

739
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: after I got this card, one of the first things

740
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: I did is I ran and talked to my pastor

741
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: lives across that at the time, lived across the street,

742
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: and I said, I don't know what to do. I

743
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: don't know what to do. Here's here's the card. This card.

744
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 1: This card. Incidentally, um, it came to Kristen the very

745
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 1: first Mother's Day. The Dan was in jail. He said,

746
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: he sent this from Orange County Jail to Kristen. Yeah.

747
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: It says Happy Mother's Day, Mama. Sorry, it's been so

748
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: long since writing, but I wanted you to know that

749
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: you're loved. You've given me some of the best memories

750
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: anyone could ever ask for. I love you, and I

751
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: think of you all often. You were always in my

752
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: prayers and in my heart. I've become a minister in

753
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: here and doing my best. Please send my love to

754
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: Britt and the Big Guy. I love you all. Happy

755
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: MoMA's Day, my my. I told me, I kept going

756
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 1: back and do I need do I Should I respond?

757
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: Should I not respond? And my first thing that came

758
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: to my mind, I was so worried about. I didn't

759
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: want to reject him because what if he was reaching

760
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: out and he had nobody else, and what if he

761
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: was thinking of hurting himself. All these thoughts were in

762
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: my head, and that I didn't want to reject him

763
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: by ignoring it, and like, I kept thinking, this must

764
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: have been hard for him to send. Why is he

765
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 1: sending me a Mother's Day card? Now I'm not a psychiatrist,

766
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: but listen into those words that he wrote to you.

767
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: It really sounds like an inner child who desperately needs

768
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: love and needed your love. And that's what made me

769
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: so upset because I had gotten to the point this

770
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: was basically the year after he committed the murders. I

771
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: had processed it that he was gone, and that's what

772
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: I had to do. You buried him to stay strong

773
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: and be able to not have my mind going back

774
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: and forth like how would he do it? And wringing

775
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 1: my hands. I just couldn't do that anymore. So are

776
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,919
Speaker 1: picturing him in a jail cell and the whole thing.

777
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: I had to just put him to rest. And then

778
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: this came and it opened it all up again. So

779
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: I was at the point I didn't want to have

780
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: to relive it for me. But then and I'm thinking,

781
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I have a responsibility because he's reaching out.

782
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: What do I do so that we also have a

783
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 1: huge heart? You remember the young man there. So that's

784
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: when I turned to John, who didn't have an answer,

785
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: and then I turned to my pastor and he said,

786
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: you don't owe anybody anything, remember that, and you have

787
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: to do what's best for you. And at that point

788
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: it was just let it be and now. But I

789
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: couldn't bring it to myself to throw it away. Part

790
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: of our thing in this is is that very time

791
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: is um. I saw it myself personally as another step

792
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: of dance. Manipulation of people. Isn't an interesting like I'm

793
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: listening to it and I'm feeling a little choked up

794
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: for you? And yet then the the male perception is

795
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: goes to the Dan that he has become right, which

796
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: is the manipulation and that Yeah, and I took it

797
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: as here I am, I'm stuck here, but I want

798
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: you to feel sorry for me, and I I have

799
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: um um, I believe now that I see Dan for

800
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: what he really is really Yeah, And do you feel

801
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: duped by Dan? Oh? Absolutely absolutely? And I am one

802
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,439
Speaker 1: that I I have no words that I could use

803
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: to defend Dan and it's not a matter of resentment

804
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: at all. It's a matter of my eyes have been opened. Right.

805
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: It's funny, I think you've grown into that position because

806
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: of out a year and a half ago. I believe

807
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: I put you at the table with the four woman

808
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: of the trial of Dan's trial. We all had dinner together,

809
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: and I remember there was a bit of a divide

810
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: in the conversation because she obviously felt very strongly that

811
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: Dan is where he's supposed to be, which I think

812
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: we all I don't think there's really any disagreement about, right,

813
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: But we were trying to explain, and of course it

814
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: was more you guys than it was me. But I

815
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: had also had so many interviews at that point where

816
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 1: I felt like the explanation is that Dan had such

817
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: low self esteem and he wasn't capable of iver was

818
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: standing up for himself, and he was always searching for

819
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: love so desperately that this woman who was calling the

820
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: shots in this relationship got him to a point where

821
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: he he was the you know, he was basically a

822
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: puppet in in this scenario, and she was more of

823
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: the mastermind. That's the impression I had at the time,

824
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: given all the interviews I've done, and you both agreed

825
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 1: with that analysis because of who you knew. I mean,

826
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: you think you were still trying to hold on to

827
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: the person that you knew. But I think with time

828
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: now you're starting to see it as again, like you said,

829
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: a manipulation and maybe even manipulated you guys to a

830
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: certain extent, right, because you're starting to put more of

831
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: the pieces of the puzzle together and and recognizing that

832
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 1: no matter who manipulates you, or no matter who calls

833
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: the shots in a relationship, it still doesn't mean that

834
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: you have to get to the point where you're killing

835
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: people to sustain some kind of a relationship or or

836
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: to please someone to the point where they're going on

837
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: the honeymoon cruise that they want and and they don't

838
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: have to work for a living. I mean, one of

839
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: the conversations we started was about Rachel's visit to Brittany.

840
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 1: We started that, but one of the things in that

841
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 1: was the Rachel sad and made fun of Dan about

842
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 1: how body odor and things like that. And one of

843
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: the things that I find that when we first met Dan,

844
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: he was groomed impeccably. Okay, he was groomed impeccably. He

845
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: was always one. He was against drugs, he was against

846
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: alcohol because he said he had a brother who had

847
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: trouble drinking and everything else. He was like. His appearance

848
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 1: was always they used Brittany and him would call each

849
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: other and trying to coordinate their outfits. I mean, I

850
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: think you said that people would call them kenn and Barbie. Yeah. So,

851
00:52:54,200 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 1: and we watched Dan's appearance disintegrade, going to a guy

852
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 1: who was no longer groom, no longer freshly bathed, and

853
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: stuff like that. To where And one of the things

854
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: we found very confusing about that remarks from Rachel was

855
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: why was she marrying a guy she felt that way

856
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: about that she was making fun of. That was something

857
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 1: that really stuck in our mind that day, sitting around

858
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: that control. Let's talk about that day. Let's let's talk

859
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 1: about that day. So the so the doorbell rang, you

860
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: opened it up, and in walks in walks Rachel and Noah,

861
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: her brother, and immediately what we saw was her holding

862
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: a large bottle of alcohol, which to this day, I mean,

863
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what she was thinking. I mean,

864
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: she barely knew you guys walking into I mean, we

865
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: knew her from theater, but not well at all. And

866
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: to walk into anybody's home carrying a bottle of alcohol, yeah, vodka,

867
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: a large bottle. Well, you said she was also clearly

868
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 1: drinking it. But but when you think back, and I

869
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: know I'm interrupting when I say this, but I in

870
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: my mind now I'm thinking back about why did she

871
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: walk in without alcohol? Was it was she trying to

872
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: drown sorrows that her fiance had just been arrested for

873
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: murder or was she trying to portray a cover up

874
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: to us? We look at me, I am so torn

875
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: up about this and the whole that it was a

876
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: prop and she was an active absolutely, and that's the

877
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: way I'm reading it now. We questioned why she wanted

878
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: to talk to Brittany for the longest time. We questioned

879
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: it for years. Why why because it's not like they

880
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: were friends, they hadn't talked and years why, Well, she

881
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 1: found the sex tape. You knew that Dan had taped

882
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: his relations with Brittany, and he had kept a tape

883
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: and they had a little like firewall safe in the

884
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: bedroom and it was right next to the gun by

885
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: the way that Rachel found and we had no I

886
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: we we we didn't even know that they were again,

887
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,919
Speaker 1: that Brittany and Dan were involved. So now knowing now,

888
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: we understand why it was important that she came. But

889
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: we were bewildered. And the only thing that it appeared

890
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 1: that day is she came down to exchange stories with

891
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: Brittany about well, when you dated him, did he do this?

892
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 1: Did he do this? Uh? Did he do this? How

893
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,240
Speaker 1: did he respond to this? I think because she found

894
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: that sex tape and knew that there was an intimacy

895
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: between Brittany and Dan, I'm supposing that she wanted to

896
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: know how much you guys knew. She wanted to know

897
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: to what extent Dan shared with you, her involvement, her

898
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 1: role in the murders. That that's what I'm guessing why

899
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 1: Noah and she came down there to have that conversation

900
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: and to see how much they could procure from both

901
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: of you as to what knowledge, if any, you had.

902
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: I know that she said, you guys separated, right. She

903
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: went out on the deck with you and Britain and

904
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,479
Speaker 1: Noah stayed inside with you. You stayed in the couch.

905
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: You stayed on the couch because I remember you saying

906
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 1: that he commented about your coffee table and the things.

907
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: And so why don't we start with what happened on

908
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: the deck, because I know that she told you some

909
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: things about the night of the murder, of the murder

910
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: of Julie that ended up being very different than what

911
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: actually well, like I said, they were comparing things that

912
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: he had done in the relationship and all that. And

913
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: then then she mentioned she was tired after the show.

914
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: She was hanging out playing on the computer in bed,

915
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: and she said that Dan went in to take a shower.

916
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: Here's where she said that he went in to take

917
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: a shower, and he had told her that. This is

918
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: after the fact that she talked to him after he

919
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: was arrested. He had told her that he had climbed

920
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: out the window and that's how he had gone to

921
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: command through that window. But go ahead, So that always

922
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: said that night and then and she told you she

923
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: was in bed with her right with her computer. So

924
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: then fast forward and I think it was the next day,

925
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: We're not sure if it was the next year, the

926
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: day after um Brittany had gotten attacks from Rachel and

927
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: the text had said everything I told you was a lie,

928
00:57:52,960 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: So disregard it. All so complete confusion. Like incidentally, incidentally,

929
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: she also told you before before you share John what

930
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: you're going to say, you had told me that Rachel

931
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: also shared with you that Sam Hair had owed them money.

932
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: And that is why Dan had Sam's a T M

933
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: car to Pin number, because Sam gave it to him. Exactly, yes,

934
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: and clearly that is not even remotely what the case

935
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: really was. One of the things, let me back up

936
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: here on is Rachel and her brother Noah came to

937
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 1: our house and then Rachel wanted to spend more time

938
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: speaking girl to girl to Brittany, so they went to

939
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: Brittany's apartment in Burbank to spend the night. So she

940
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: spent the night that night with Brittany in her apartment

941
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: in Burbank. And well, actually part of the pretense of

942
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: it was her apartment was now a crime scene. They

943
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: are whatever they were investigating. She was locked out of

944
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: her apartment. She didn't have any clothes, so she had

945
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: asked to borrow clothes from Britt. So we were so adamant,

946
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: we did not want that to happen, but Britt insisted.

947
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: She said, Mom, Dad, I'll be fine. I had my phone,

948
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: don't worry. About it. We just didn't have a good feeling,

949
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: like we really did not have a good feeling at all.

950
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: We didn't know what our daughter alone with her, Hence

951
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: why we said, you're not meeting her, she's gonna they're

952
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: coming here, or you're not meeting them. And then after

953
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: all that, we use all that energy to have them come.

954
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: Then Brittie's sides, they're going to go back to Burbank. Anyways,

955
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: that night, I don't think we slept at all. We

956
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 1: were a wreck. The The other thing about that visit

957
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: that that sticks out in my mind is that when

958
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 1: we were separated, you know, the guys and a girl

959
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: so to speak. When we were separated, No and I

960
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: were talking, and I still I can picture this vivid

961
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: in my mind. Him sitting on our sofa talking to

962
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: me with his pipe very uh, I don't know as

963
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: I'm a lit pipe, but very yeah, and saying, um,

964
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: I said to him, because we were we were in shock,

965
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, And I said to him, I can't believe

966
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: Dan would ever ever do something like this. Him saying

967
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: to me, well, you know, Dan and I used to

968
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: like to play a little what if game, And he said,

969
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: Dan and I would set on his patio many times,

970
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: planning how we could do a perfect murder and get

971
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: away with it. Yeah, what meaning? The perfect murder means

972
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: you murder someone to get away with it. And I

973
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: came out of that where I said, I said to

974
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: Kristen that there's something, he knows something, he knows something,

975
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: there's something happening here, and he's basically trying to throw

976
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: it all at Dan, right, But in in a strange way,

977
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: he sort of implicated himself too, because he said, we

978
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:23,919
Speaker 1: played these games together, right, and I have to tell

979
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: our listeners. There was in the police transcriptions that I read,

980
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: particularly of his interview with the Costa Mesa police, there

981
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: was a line in there that the combination of talking

982
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: to you and knowing the story that you had just

983
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: told me and now our listeners, besides reading what he

984
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: said to police, really gave me pause more than anything else,

985
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: because he had said, because I know you said to

986
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: me at that point, you decided with your wife that

987
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: we have to go talk to somebody, We have to

988
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: go talk to the authority. He's there's clearly this this

989
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: gentleman no A. Buffett knows way more than he should

990
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 1: know at this stage. And It tells me that Dan

991
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: wasn't alone in the in the planning and execution of

992
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: these murders. And and I have to say to you

993
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 1: that I read Noah telling the police when when he

994
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: shared with them I co signed that apartment and they

995
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: were being evicted that Tuesday, the week of the murders.

996
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: So Noah said to Dan, what are you gonna do

997
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: about this? Because this eviction is going to screw up

998
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: my credit and he said Daniel Waznia said to know

999
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: Ah buffet and he told the coast to Masa police

1000
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: this that Dan told me, as long as I can

1001
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 1: get four d dollars a day, we're going to be fine.

1002
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 1: That is the exact amount of money that Dan took

1003
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: out of Sam Hair's account every day, because back then

1004
01:02:57,600 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: that's all you could get out of the A T M.

1005
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: That was the max for the day. So the fact

1006
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: that Noah is telling the police when interviewed that he

1007
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: had that conversation with Dan and that he suggested the

1008
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: exact number that was being taken out of Sam's account

1009
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: every day, tells me he knew he knew it all right. Well,

1010
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: that was why we contacted the police and said I

1011
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: and I initiated this with Kristen said we better tell

1012
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: somebody in authority about these conversations. And her it was

1013
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: her behavior too. She wasn't behaving like a fiancee who

1014
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: just her whole world was just brown apart. She was

1015
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 1: drinking and laughing, and they reticulling him and I we

1016
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: both agreed that this is bizarre behavior. We need to

1017
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: go disturbing. It was disturbing. And she lied to you.

1018
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: I mean, did you tell police at the time what

1019
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: she said about Sam har owing the money? And we did,

1020
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: and in fact, we went to the police a second

1021
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: time after our daughter had shared us the text that

1022
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 1: Rachel head Center saying, hey, everything I told you the

1023
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: other day was a lie. Disregard it. We we had

1024
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: taken a snapshot of that and we had taken that

1025
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: to the police too, and like you need to look

1026
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: at look at this to something going on. Did anything

1027
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: come of? We questioned why nothing? First of all, we

1028
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: are in shock that no one ever asked us to

1029
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: come to talk to us. We weren't supoene, we weren't

1030
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: nothing except right. We kept questioning, like why we we

1031
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: saw this text we met with Rachel Lenoah, why aren't

1032
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: the authorities wanting to talk to us further? Why when

1033
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: they're when they're going to trial, Why isn't anybody talking

1034
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: to us? It has bothered us for years because I

1035
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: really do believe that. And the way it played out

1036
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: was that the d S Office was looking to get

1037
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: Dan and Dan alone at that point. I mean, they

1038
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: they wanted their guy, and they didn't want to muck

1039
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 1: up the waters with the potential of it being more

1040
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 1: than one person. They felt like that could possibly a

1041
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: mitigating factor in their pursuit for death. And it seems

1042
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: like there was the sense of turning away from others involved.

1043
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean I asked the CUSTOMSA police most specifically why

1044
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: they didn't pursue charges with Noah, and they said, because

1045
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 1: he convinced Rachel to do the voice stress test as well,

1046
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: what else is he going to say, and don't do

1047
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,959
Speaker 1: this voice stress test that's going to make him look

1048
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: guilty as hell? Like, why of course he's gonna say

1049
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: do it. And she did it in such a way

1050
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: that she was able, as the detective told me, you know,

1051
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 1: she actually the tests were inconclusive. She had done it

1052
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: three times, and in his mind, it's basically failing, but

1053
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: it's not admissible in court because of the way in

1054
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: which she did the test. She sort of spoke into

1055
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: the buttons on her shirt and spoken it in a

1056
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: different tone in her voice, and she so she was

1057
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: able to beat it, so to speak. I mean, I

1058
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: do believe that they tried to build enough evidence, and

1059
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: they did build a tremendous amount of evidence, and I

1060
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: give Costa Mesa police considerable credit for that. But the

1061
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: d A's office just kept saying it's circumstantial, It's circumstantial,

1062
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: And as so many attorneys have told me, most cases

1063
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: are built on circumstantial evidence. You rarely have a video

1064
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: of the perpetrator shooting the victim, right, or whatever the

1065
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: crime is, you rarely have any recording of the event, right,

1066
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: So most cases are built on circumstantial But I'll the

1067
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: one time I did sit with him, this is the prosecutor,

1068
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 1: Matt Murphy. He told me, I don't appreciate or understand

1069
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: O C jurors that you just never know which way

1070
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 1: it could go, because if someone like Rachel were introduced

1071
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: as a mastermind, because that's what I said to him,

1072
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 1: I said, after all these interviews I've done, it's my

1073
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 1: belief that she was the mastermind here, and he basically

1074
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 1: dismissed me like I was a fool. And that's when

1075
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: he explained to me that he said, you don't appreciate

1076
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: that they could have seen that as a mitigating factor. Well,

1077
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 1: I said, you had a confession. You had a guy

1078
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: pulling his hair out of his head, saying he enjoyed

1079
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 1: cutting sam Hair's head off, and and laughing with this

1080
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: insidious laugh. I mean, you had everything you needed to

1081
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 1: pursue death, right. I just don't understand why we had

1082
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: to frame Rachel in such a way that maybe she

1083
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: helped the police in solving the crime with introducing the

1084
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: evidence in the case. It's just when it when it

1085
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 1: really wasn't the case. And I just felt like it's unfortunate.

1086
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 1: And you're you're asking me why they didn't follow up

1087
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: with you guys. I think because again, your conversations with

1088
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: Noah and with Rachel would have would have maybe gone

1089
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 1: against their narrative. Well, a couple of things here, okay.

1090
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: One is you saying that the voice test being inconclusive.

1091
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: My answer to that is she was an experienced actress, right.

1092
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: The other thing, too, is when we watched videos of

1093
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:45,759
Speaker 1: the interrogation. We saw Dan is that she walked into

1094
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: the room and first words out of her mouth were, Dan,

1095
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:55,519
Speaker 1: what did you do? Okay? To me? That was her

1096
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: trying to deflect anything away from herself when I saw that.

1097
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:07,040
Speaker 1: Interesting secondly is I saw during the interview process at

1098
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: times Dan running his fingers his hands through his hair.

1099
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 1: That was a sure fire clue knowing Dan that that

1100
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: was a lie. He always did that when he was lying.

1101
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:22,599
Speaker 1: He had absolutely sign he was lying. That interview we watched,

1102
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: and I don't believe he was telling them the truth

1103
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 1: through most of it. He was the laugh that he

1104
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,719
Speaker 1: did that was not a real laugh, That was fake.

1105
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: That was that was I'm gonna go for the insanity point.

1106
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,679
Speaker 1: That was an act. And to add to your point,

1107
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: Tim told me, and so did Bob Christilla and a

1108
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 1: bunch of other people, Kathleen Comfort, a bunch of cousins

1109
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: and friends close to the Wazniak family said Dan never

1110
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: touched a gun in his life. Dan never went shooting

1111
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 1: with his father like Tim did. Dan had never touched

1112
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 1: that gun before these murders took place. And it has

1113
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: always been my gut feeling that he he didn't do

1114
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 1: this alone. I don't think he had it in him

1115
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: to do it alone. But he's taking the fall. He's

1116
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: taking the fall. I don't it's not that I just

1117
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 1: I don't think I in my gut, I believe that

1118
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: he's taking the fall for other people. Well, he's keeping

1119
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:33,639
Speaker 1: everyone else out of it. Yeah, I'm we're not saying

1120
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:36,680
Speaker 1: he didn't do that. He didn't do it. I mean

1121
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: I think he, I just didn't do it alone. Yeah.

1122
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: I believe he was probably the principal actor absolutely, as

1123
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: he always was. Yeah. Yeah, he was always the lead.

1124
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 1: He was always the lead. You know. The other thing

1125
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 1: is sort of like I'm flashing back to my My

1126
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: conversation with Noah is about, you know, the ability to

1127
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 1: be able to do the murders, and they talked about

1128
01:10:57,960 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 1: the games and everything else. But another part of that

1129
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 1: conversation was no one knew exactly where Dan God the

1130
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: the knives and so forth from that he used in

1131
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 1: the mutilation of the bodies. And he goes, oh, yeah,

1132
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: they come out of a shed, and I knew where

1133
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: that shed was and all that it was the shed

1134
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 1: behind his house, right H's apartment. And we questioned, well

1135
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 1: that he didn't talk to him. He was the guy

1136
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 1: was put in jail. When did Noah get the chance

1137
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: to go through all those details? And that conversation once

1138
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:40,520
Speaker 1: again for our listeners, happened the Saturday after Dan was arrested.

1139
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 1: And did you tell the police that yes? And what

1140
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: did they say? Um? I had never been in a

1141
01:11:51,960 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 1: police interview before, interviewed by police. Were UM thinking about

1142
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 1: that interview right now? Is I think they were very

1143
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 1: careful not to lead me anywhere and that questioning when

1144
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: I when I look back at it now, they would

1145
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 1: ask They would say, tell me what you saw, tell

1146
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 1: me what you heard. Now. At times I would I

1147
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 1: might make a statement and they would say, so we understand,

1148
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:26,680
Speaker 1: is this what you're saying? That kind of thing, But

1149
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,639
Speaker 1: there was never a they were trying to groom something.

1150
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 1: I never never got that feeling in that interview with

1151
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 1: them that they were trying to groom me to say

1152
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 1: something that they wanted. Never. So, then when you did

1153
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 1: share with them though, the conversations that you had with Noah,

1154
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 1: particularly about where the tools came for the dismemberment, where

1155
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 1: they came from, did you feel like you could ask

1156
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: them is that something he would have known if he

1157
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 1: could he have learned that from you guys, or you

1158
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 1: couldn't feel like you could ask them questions. I don't almost.

1159
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: They never gave me a feeling that I couldn't ask

1160
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: them something. It was more of a feeling of tell

1161
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 1: us what you know, tell us what you're we're listening

1162
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 1: to you kind of thing. So I never got the

1163
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: feeling that we're trying to h But do you feel

1164
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: like they didn't do anything with it after? Or absolutely? Well?

1165
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: I mean because we were and Kristen and I in fact, Kristin,

1166
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 1: why don't you you know we've had those conversations. You

1167
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: were questioning why there was no follow up exactly? We

1168
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: we questioned it for years. Why nobody um asked us

1169
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 1: further questions. I mean, I feel the fact that they

1170
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: came over that day and sat with us people that

1171
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 1: weren't in our life. Brittany was not friends with Rachel

1172
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:55,640
Speaker 1: by any means that is alarming. That's very disturbing. And

1173
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: we we let the police know this, Hey, this isn't

1174
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: somebody we've had contact with. They came out of the blue.

1175
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 1: Were nervous why she wants to talk to us anyway,

1176
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 1: or why she wanted to talk to Brittany. Anyways, this

1177
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: is alarming to us. It does make you question. I

1178
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 1: think it's appalling that the woman that was convicted of

1179
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,599
Speaker 1: accessory after the fact that came to our house at

1180
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:22,599
Speaker 1: the time of the murders and gave us information we

1181
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: went to the police. Nobody has come to us and

1182
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 1: wanted to ask us and question us further. She told

1183
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: us incriminating facts, and no one has requestioned us, especially

1184
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,600
Speaker 1: since Rachel was giving you information about the case that

1185
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: we're based on lies exactly. And as far as the

1186
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 1: tells you said, you were watching the interrogation tape once

1187
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 1: Dan was arrested for accessory after the fact, they taped

1188
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:00,320
Speaker 1: all of their interviews with him that went through that

1189
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 1: Wednesday night into Thursday until he finally confessed to the murders.

1190
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,759
Speaker 1: You got to watch those tapes. What did you glean

1191
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 1: when you saw those tapes? A lot of his tells, Well, yeah,

1192
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 1: we both we we had come to recognize the telltale

1193
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 1: signs of a lie, and because you experienced them firsthand

1194
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 1: with him and um. The one of the things Dan

1195
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,880
Speaker 1: habitually did with and did with us is when you

1196
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,679
Speaker 1: would ask him a question before he ever answered a question,

1197
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 1: he always go huh, like he didn't hear you, So

1198
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: he's buying time to figure out what he was going

1199
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 1: to say. And my answer, when you do that, I'd say, ha, hell,

1200
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 1: pay attention, and then he could answer me. It was

1201
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 1: about everything, like would you like a doughnut? Like everything.

1202
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 1: So watching those tapes was the hands through the hair, yes,

1203
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 1: that was that was always signal signals. He was lying

1204
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: all the time, shaking his knees, always a lie. The

1205
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: tone in his voice he would change. There was I'm

1206
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:23,640
Speaker 1: very I'm a musician, so I'm all about listening to

1207
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: intonations and tones. And yes, I knew like he would

1208
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 1: drop his tone his it would just change. The tone

1209
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,679
Speaker 1: would drastically change when he was talking in a lie,

1210
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 1: telling a lie, and in that interview several times that

1211
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,639
Speaker 1: tone changed. What about when he'd said, no, I'm sorry,

1212
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 1: that was a lie. That's a lie. But now now

1213
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you the truth. Now I'm gonna tell

1214
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 1: you the truth. That wasn't the truth. He had a

1215
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 1: big whopper of a lie that he told you many

1216
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: years prior to the arrest, and it haunts me to

1217
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 1: this day. I want to know why I was told

1218
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 1: this lie. I remember exactly where I was. I remember

1219
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I was in New York and

1220
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 1: um Brittany had moved back for I think the second time.

1221
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 1: I was shopping in a store and we were setting

1222
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:19,840
Speaker 1: up our apartment. A phone rang and she he had

1223
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 1: called me, and I was with Brett, and he goes, Momma,

1224
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 1: do you have a minute. I gotta talk, like, yeah,

1225
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 1: what's up. I could tell something was wrong right away,

1226
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: and he says it's serious. So I remember I kind

1227
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: of pushed my card over to the nile and I

1228
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: kind of just stood there and he said, my brother

1229
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: Mike was killed in an accident, a car accident. And

1230
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 1: then my first recasid, Oh my gosh, what happened. Oh

1231
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: my gosh, Danne, I'm so sorry what happened. So he

1232
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: said he was drinking and driving, and I said, oh

1233
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: my gosh, I go, I gotta call your mom. Your

1234
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,160
Speaker 1: daddy goes no, no, no, no, no, don't know. He

1235
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 1: he says, they're they're just not doing well with it,

1236
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: and it's best that you don't call. Just let it

1237
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,839
Speaker 1: be right now. Maybe later, but they're just a mess.

1238
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 1: I understood that made sense, like give him time and

1239
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 1: all that that part of it that made sense. So

1240
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: later on, and I don't remember how much after. It

1241
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 1: could have been a couple of months. I really don't know.

1242
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 1: I remember we were messaging I think a O L

1243
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:32,960
Speaker 1: or something and we were talking and um at the

1244
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: time he had asked, oh, I do know what it was? Now?

1245
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: He was when he was doing Nine, that's what, because

1246
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,519
Speaker 1: he had messaged me and says, I really want you

1247
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,799
Speaker 1: and the big guy to come to my show. And

1248
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 1: Nine was the musical that Dan and Rachel were performing

1249
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: in when these murders took place. And I had said, well,

1250
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:58,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I get a lot going on. And

1251
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 1: I think I was direct doing a show at the

1252
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 1: time or something, and it had come up something about

1253
01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 1: David Newman had come up in conversation, and I remember

1254
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: saying something and I remember him saying, I don't want

1255
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 1: you to talk to him about it. Nobody knows, and

1256
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 1: I just I didn't Understdavid Newman was a very close

1257
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 1: high school friend that they eventually had a falling out

1258
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 1: over the lies that Dan would tell. They just got

1259
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 1: tired of all and he said they were silly lies,

1260
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:37,360
Speaker 1: but they were ridiculous and they got tired of it.

1261
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,679
Speaker 1: And even when Rachel came into their life, they noticed

1262
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 1: that he was starting to do drugs and they didn't

1263
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: want any part of that. Okay, Well, the other the

1264
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 1: other part about it, if I recall correctly, is you said,

1265
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 1: when Dan, when you said you were going to call David,

1266
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,560
Speaker 1: you were going to call Um, Um, Marian, Marian and

1267
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 1: Dan Daniel or l Errol because you want to express

1268
01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:05,920
Speaker 1: your sympathy and you know, and extend your condolences. He goes, Nope,

1269
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:08,440
Speaker 1: don't call them, and don't tell any of my friends.

1270
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:11,599
Speaker 1: That was why he said, don't tell David Newman, because

1271
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 1: maybe he felt David would go to Mary Anne and

1272
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,880
Speaker 1: say yes. But Kristen, you even said to him at

1273
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: the time, if I remember you saying to me, you said, Dan,

1274
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 1: why don't you want anybody to know? And he told

1275
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 1: me we had had a falling out that him and Newman,

1276
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:28,479
Speaker 1: David Newman, he called him Newman. We knew him as Newman.

1277
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 1: He was a friend of Brits too. He says, Newman

1278
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,000
Speaker 1: and I had and Matt have had a falling out

1279
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,280
Speaker 1: and I do not want this to be the reason

1280
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 1: they come back into my life. I want them to

1281
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: come back into my life out of their own will,

1282
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 1: not out of sympathy for this. So again I'm like, okay,

1283
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 1: all right, So yeah, every he did, and to this

1284
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:59,560
Speaker 1: day I don't understand, not that there's ever a necessity

1285
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 1: to lie ever, but but what prompted him to do that?

1286
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 1: Because you know what, that bothered me that his brother

1287
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:08,759
Speaker 1: had died, you know, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh,

1288
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,439
Speaker 1: his poor parents, what they had to go through. And

1289
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:13,800
Speaker 1: I did, by the way, just for the record, his

1290
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: brother is alive and well and living in Missouri. And

1291
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:20,320
Speaker 1: I didn't find out that he was alive until the

1292
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:25,840
Speaker 1: day Rachel and Noah came over. It was then as

1293
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:29,360
Speaker 1: Rachel and Brittany were talking about things, I happened to

1294
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 1: mention Mike dying, Mike dying, and Rachel goes, his brother

1295
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 1: is not dead, and I was My mind was blown.

1296
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 1: So Daniel has two older brothers, the oldest being Mike

1297
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: and then the middle being Tim Wasniang and both are

1298
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:51,679
Speaker 1: alive right now. I know, years later after I had

1299
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 1: felt so bad for this brother dying, and you never

1300
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 1: had the chance to ask Daniel if I was going

1301
01:21:57,479 --> 01:22:01,519
Speaker 1: to ask him anything. That's the one thing that I

1302
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:06,480
Speaker 1: need to know because it wasn't even connected to anything.

1303
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 1: That was the reason. Did he want me attention? Did

1304
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:15,160
Speaker 1: he did he need me do? But wasn't that sort

1305
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 1: of also a random call out of the blue? I

1306
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: mean he wasn't dating brit anymow No, we had still

1307
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 1: talked like you know, that relationship what was there. But

1308
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:26,720
Speaker 1: but it wasn't like he was trying to extort any

1309
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 1: kind of sympathy cash out of you to pay for

1310
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 1: a funeral. No, no, a matter of fact, he told

1311
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 1: us to keep it quiet. Speaking of extort he did

1312
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:41,799
Speaker 1: going back to the sex tape, what that Rachel found

1313
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:47,080
Speaker 1: of your daughter and and Daniel in in a sexual

1314
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: having a sexual dliens. He explained the tape by saying

1315
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:57,960
Speaker 1: that he planned on extorting you for money. I mean,

1316
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 1: given his relation ship with you guys and your history,

1317
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 1: that that has to hurt a bit. I don't believe

1318
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 1: it for a minute. He matter of fact, we've lent

1319
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 1: him money before. If he needed money, he could have

1320
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 1: came to us and as he did, he always paid

1321
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 1: us back. He always did. I don't believe that at all.

1322
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 1: He was There's no way he was going to extort

1323
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 1: us for money, So that was for Rachel's benefit absolutely.

1324
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 1: And as for Rachel Buffett, do you feel that she

1325
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 1: is ever going to properly be charged in this case

1326
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:44,559
Speaker 1: and face the consequences of her true role in these

1327
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:52,760
Speaker 1: murders even if the district attorney decides to never recharge her. This,

1328
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 1: your port podcast, your book, your research is going to

1329
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:05,519
Speaker 1: a social media nightmare for her that from here forward,

1330
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 1: anybody that ever meets her comes in contact, he's going

1331
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:12,400
Speaker 1: to know who she is, know what she's about, and

1332
01:24:12,479 --> 01:24:15,200
Speaker 1: know her true character, and you're never going to view

1333
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 1: her the way she wants to be viewed. So once again,

1334
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:23,559
Speaker 1: I believe the two of you, of all the guests

1335
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:28,559
Speaker 1: I've had on Sleuth new Dan the best prior to

1336
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:32,600
Speaker 1: his life with Rachel, and because you had such a

1337
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 1: close relationship with him, because he looked to both of

1338
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:40,120
Speaker 1: you as mother and father figures. I wanted to share

1339
01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 1: with you a quote from June Kiblih, who's the mother

1340
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:49,200
Speaker 1: of Julie, one of Dan's victims, and she spoke in

1341
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: open court on sentencing day, right before the judge was

1342
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:59,640
Speaker 1: going to impose his death penalty sentence on Daniel and

1343
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:02,920
Speaker 1: I want to recite this to you because soon after

1344
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:07,960
Speaker 1: you sent me a text and they're eerily similar. So

1345
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: with that, June spoke and directed this comment to Daniel

1346
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 1: Wozniak in court on May you took my beautiful, caring

1347
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:23,320
Speaker 1: daughter's precious life to cover up your heinous crime for

1348
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 1: a pathetic reason for wanting money for your wedding. For

1349
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 1: six years and four months, I have sat behind you

1350
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 1: every time I came to court, watching you come out

1351
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: and smile for the cameras and the audience, enjoying being

1352
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 1: the center of attention. You show no remorse and no

1353
01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:47,800
Speaker 1: guilt for taking my beautiful, loving daughter away from us.

1354
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 1: And now I'd like to follow up with the text, Christian,

1355
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:54,360
Speaker 1: that you had sent to me. I believe it was

1356
01:25:54,479 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 1: almost that same day after court convened. The video footage

1357
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:02,559
Speaker 1: of yesterday shows the real Dan to me, the one

1358
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,759
Speaker 1: I now know. He is so aware of the camera,

1359
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: and it is most likely not even comprehending the moment

1360
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,799
Speaker 1: he's in because he's playing a role to that camera.

1361
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:15,160
Speaker 1: I don't think he's ever lived an honest moment in

1362
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 1: his life. He's always aware of others viewing him, and

1363
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:23,639
Speaker 1: he craves that audience. I now see this with opened eyes.

1364
01:26:25,640 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 1: I kind of get chills when I read that. Tell

1365
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 1: me how you feel that has um It's it was

1366
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:41,880
Speaker 1: very at that point when I, when I had those

1367
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 1: open eyes and I had that moment of clarity, I

1368
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 1: was able to completely let go of the person that

1369
01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:53,320
Speaker 1: I once knew because I realized I didn't know that

1370
01:26:53,400 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 1: person ever and I became so where not that I

1371
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 1: was never not aware, but I was became more more

1372
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 1: and more aware of the pain that he inflicted on

1373
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: the families and so many other people. And I was

1374
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:22,760
Speaker 1: able to let go of the past. Understand now that

1375
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:27,080
Speaker 1: how duped I guess, for lack of a better word,

1376
01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:33,720
Speaker 1: and um, that my views and trust had been completely

1377
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 1: shattered and broken. Do you think you could ever forgive him? No?

1378
01:27:42,400 --> 01:27:50,200
Speaker 1: And part of that reason is my trust in judgment

1379
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:56,479
Speaker 1: was shattered us he used it so I and one

1380
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:59,679
Speaker 1: of the things that sticks in my mind and I'll

1381
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:02,120
Speaker 1: never forget. I can hear my daughter's voice say this

1382
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:07,560
Speaker 1: is she's always viewed my husband as her ultimate protector,

1383
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,400
Speaker 1: our family's protector. And when she said this to John

1384
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 1: a few years back, it sounded like a little girl

1385
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:19,400
Speaker 1: but she said, Dad, nobody ever gets by you. And

1386
01:28:19,439 --> 01:28:22,639
Speaker 1: the fact that he got by you, Dan was Nat

1387
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 1: got by you. I don't know if I can ever

1388
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 1: trust anybody. And I feel the same way. I have

1389
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,600
Speaker 1: a hard time ever making a new friend, because the

1390
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,599
Speaker 1: very first thought I have is how do I know

1391
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:35,559
Speaker 1: that they are who they are? I honestly will say

1392
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:38,879
Speaker 1: I don't trust anybody anymore other than my close circle,

1393
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:42,640
Speaker 1: and I never will again ever. And he took that

1394
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 1: from me, absolutely, And that's what I can't forgive. What

1395
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 1: I can forgive him four is that the pain that

1396
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: he has inflicted upon Sam and Julie's parents, family and

1397
01:29:03,040 --> 01:29:13,080
Speaker 1: friends for what was his own selfish gain. And there's

1398
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:17,640
Speaker 1: no way, there's nothing I can say here today to

1399
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:22,519
Speaker 1: praise Dan. You know, I think of uh, we we

1400
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:24,880
Speaker 1: did not come here today to praise Caesar, but to

1401
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 1: bury him. And that's the way I feel that there's

1402
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:33,160
Speaker 1: nothing we can say to praise Dan or to shift

1403
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 1: the blame to anyone else of saying, well, they caused

1404
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:39,559
Speaker 1: this to Dan. In fact, I get accused of being

1405
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:44,000
Speaker 1: very black and white. And my feelings on this is

1406
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,360
Speaker 1: regardless of anybody else involved in Dan's life. Dan made

1407
01:29:48,400 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 1: the decision to do it to the trigger and he

1408
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:57,040
Speaker 1: and he is responsible for that decision. And I'm no

1409
01:29:57,200 --> 01:30:00,720
Speaker 1: way am I ever ever going to be able to

1410
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:06,840
Speaker 1: say to Sam and Julie's family that, well, you've got

1411
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:11,160
Speaker 1: to understand what happened, he snapped. I'm not buying any

1412
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:14,840
Speaker 1: of that. I'm saying to them. I'm saying to those families,

1413
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:21,880
Speaker 1: you have our deepest sympathy. Well, I am sure that

1414
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:25,960
Speaker 1: they appreciate those words because they are heartfelt and sincere.

1415
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 1: And I know how hard it was for you both

1416
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:33,439
Speaker 1: to come in today and relive this, and we really

1417
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 1: appreciate you doing that and sharing with our listeners whatever

1418
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 1: insights and knowledge that you had with Dan wisni At firsthand.

1419
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 1: And thank you, truly, thank you for coming here today.

1420
01:30:46,600 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 1: You're welcome. Coming up on Sleuth, Dr Vonda Pelto comes

1421
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 1: to our studio. Dr Pelto has a unique psychological perspective

1422
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,960
Speaker 1: on the mind of a murderer, given her career history

1423
01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:13,839
Speaker 1: as a shrink to some of the most famous serial

1424
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:17,639
Speaker 1: killers in our history. Her office was a jail cell

1425
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 1: in the Los Angeles Men's County Jail, and just a

1426
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 1: few of her many daily clients included the likes of

1427
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:30,320
Speaker 1: Charles Manson, the Freeway Killers, and the Hillside Stranglers. Tune

1428
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:33,799
Speaker 1: in to hear the Good Doctor share her psychoanalysis along

1429
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:38,919
Speaker 1: with her professional analogies, comparing her former murderous client's behavior

1430
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:43,719
Speaker 1: with that of what she defines as Daniel Wazniak's behavioral disorder,

1431
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 1: which manifested once he met Rachel Buffett. If you enjoyed

1432
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,599
Speaker 1: this episode of Sleuth, share it with a friend and

1433
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,839
Speaker 1: be sure to leave a rating or review. Follow Sleuth

1434
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:00,080
Speaker 1: on I Heart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to

1435
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:02,840
Speaker 1: podcasts so that you never miss an episode