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Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show.

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Speaker 2: It's all about best show prep comes from listeners. That's

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Speaker 2: why I read every email. The perspectives people have when

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Speaker 2: there's a fire and a firefighter writes in, or where

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Speaker 2: there's a response to a crime and police officers will

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Speaker 2: write in, or when we're in the middle of war

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Speaker 2: and veterans will write in. Sometimes it is that you've

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Speaker 2: discovered a podcast and the host would be an interesting guest,

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Speaker 2: and why they would be an interesting guest. So Scott

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Speaker 2: sent me an email. I don't know Scott, and he says,

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Speaker 2: I'm emailing about a recent book release from a fellow

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Speaker 2: named doctor Greg Gifford. It's called Lies. My therapist told

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Speaker 2: me I think he would be an amazing interview on

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Speaker 2: your show, and it's the sort of things you like

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Speaker 2: to talk about. He went on as to why this

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Speaker 2: would be a particular, particularly good guest from a Christian counselor,

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Speaker 2: professor and podcaster, a critique of the mental health establishment

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Speaker 2: from his perspective, and I said, you have my attention. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: our guest is doctor Greg Gifford. Welcome to the program.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Why did you need to write a book, what was

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Speaker 2: the purpose what did you hope to accomplish? I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty it's a pretty eye catching title. Lies

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Speaker 2: my therapist told.

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Speaker 1: Me, right right, Well, I wrote the book first of all,

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Speaker 1: because counselors often are dealing with the downstream issues of

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Speaker 1: how to counsel somebody and how to help somebody with

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Speaker 1: anxiety or depression. But instead of instead of focusing there,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to actually get at the upstream issues of

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Speaker 1: why is mental health getting worse in America? Why is

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Speaker 1: there a complex, an industrial complex that's growing, Why are

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Speaker 1: more people on psychotropics? And instead of doing the how

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Speaker 1: to help someone on psychotropics book, I wanted to try

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Speaker 1: to learn why is the problem getting worse? So really

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Speaker 1: that question sent me on the maybe downward spiral or

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Speaker 1: the trajectory of writing this book.

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Speaker 2: And let's talk about how that came to be. Why

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Speaker 2: is that the case?

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Speaker 1: Well, as I began to read and learn how the

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Speaker 1: mental health movement came about, it came down to the

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Speaker 1: father of the mental health movement, and Clifford Whittingham Beers,

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Speaker 1: and he started using the term mental and brain synonymously,

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Speaker 1: so he would talk about mental hygiene, for instance, and

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Speaker 1: the mental health movement was actually the mental hygiene movement

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Speaker 1: to begin with, and he started using things like medical

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Speaker 1: doctors for the mind and wanted us to implement a psychiatrist,

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Speaker 1: a medical doctor for the mind, as Europe is already doing.

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Speaker 1: So he's saying this in the turn of the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century and saying we need medical doctors for our minds.

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Speaker 1: And I began to think, Oh, that's interesting because as

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Speaker 1: a Christian, the Bible teaches that the mind is immaterial.

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Speaker 1: It's part of our inner person. It's not a physical reality,

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Speaker 1: it's an immaterial reality. So that little nugget started to

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Speaker 1: become the mind versus the brain. And are we talking

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Speaker 1: about a brain issue, the organ of your brain, or

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Speaker 1: are we talking about the mind, the immaterial aspect of

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Speaker 1: who we are. And because the mental health movement has

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Speaker 1: combined those too, there have been many misdiagnoses which lead

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Speaker 1: to wrong prognoses as well. If you get the problem wrong,

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Speaker 1: you get the solution wrong every time.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that these errors as you see them,

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Speaker 2: or poor courses of action, are by design or by default?

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Speaker 2: How does this end up happening?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is me speculating on it. So

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Speaker 1: I think the fair question, Michael. The reality is I'm

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Speaker 1: usually a pretty charitable person, so I'm not typically skeptical

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Speaker 1: or overly cynical. So that means that I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's by design. I think we live in a naturalistic

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Speaker 1: world looking for naturalistic explanations of why we face what

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Speaker 1: we face. So if you're going to just come up

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Speaker 1: with a material solution, then the mental health enterprise is

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Speaker 1: a natural answer. And why do we do that? You

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Speaker 1: go back to Darwin, like, the physical is all there is,

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Speaker 1: The material is all there is. So there must be

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Speaker 1: a physical or material reason for why I'm doing what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing, Why I'm sad, why I'm anxious, while I'm

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Speaker 1: struggling with past experiences. There must be a material reason.

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Speaker 1: And that's where the blame it on the brain mental

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Speaker 1: health complex really comes in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, one of my great frustrations with

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Speaker 2: the medical establishment. I'm not familiar with your body of work,

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Speaker 2: but one of my great frustrations is an overreliance on

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Speaker 2: pharmaceutical products, an overreliance on things that cost money when

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Speaker 2: there are things that are free or very little money,

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Speaker 2: more more, more water in your diet, that there is

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Speaker 2: this dependency on billable items for industries that have so

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Speaker 2: affected sort of traditional physical health. And what I'm hearing

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Speaker 2: from you is that's also true for mental health treatment.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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Speaker 1: No, right, I make that case. In the book there's

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Speaker 1: a section on incentivized diagnosing, and I show I mean

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Speaker 1: it's these are factual. So there are many people who

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Speaker 1: will disagree with my conclusions, but these are facts that

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Speaker 1: you really can't get around. Which is Number one, you

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Speaker 1: have to find a diagnosis, a mental health diagnosis to

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Speaker 1: build an insurance company. And what are you getting paid

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Speaker 1: for by the insurance company. You're treating depression or ADHD.

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Speaker 1: So that's one incentive, and it's a huge one, especially

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Speaker 1: if you're spending seventeen minutes with your doctor, who then

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Speaker 1: finds a code with which to bill your insurance. Second,

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Speaker 1: is a school have to test in order for you

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Speaker 1: to get additional resources. You have to either have a

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Speaker 1: learning disability or some mental health impairment. So now we

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Speaker 1: need a diagnosis to get you a tutor, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: And that's an incentive, whereas we could just get you

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Speaker 1: the tutor not diagnosed, but we need that diagnosis because

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Speaker 1: of IDA so there's like three or four different examples

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Speaker 1: where I show that this isn't even the nethereous side,

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Speaker 1: I mean, inevitably the total depravity of man. It means

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Speaker 1: that we are bad in every way. And that does

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Speaker 1: mean they are individuals and the secular mental health enterprise

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Speaker 1: that are in it for the money and they're in

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Speaker 1: it for a career. Or it's the psychotropic you know

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Speaker 1: industry where you're making money off of antidepressants. I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course that exists, you know, And so then a

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Speaker 1: Christian just has to be discerning. It's like, well, here's

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Speaker 1: what happens. You get an arbitrary mental illness, and then

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Speaker 1: my psychiatrist makes money off of this arbitrary illness, and

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Speaker 1: then pharmaceutical companies make money by me taking their antidepressant

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Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, and this is incentivized

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Speaker 1: for them, and I'm really the one losing in all

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Speaker 1: of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, the frustration here is that we should all start

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Speaker 2: from the premise that we want to provide healthcare for

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Speaker 2: our friends, neighbors, family, and there are all these things

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Speaker 2: getting in between. It feels like we're not making progress

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Speaker 2: as a society because so many things we were once

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Speaker 2: good at, we're less good at now and I find

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Speaker 2: that extraordinarily frustrating. Doctor Greg Giffert is our guest. The

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Speaker 2: book is called lies. My therapist told me we'll get

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Speaker 2: into more of those.

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Speaker 1: Lives listening to the Michael Berry Show podcast.

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Speaker 2: Is Sexy Be Sexy? Doctor Greg Gifford is our guest.

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Speaker 2: The book is called Lies. My therapist told me. This

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Speaker 2: was a book that was recommended to me by a

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Speaker 2: listener who had read it and found it useful. Greg Gifford,

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Speaker 2: what do you want people to take away from this?

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Speaker 2: Once we understand that there are lies, our therapist is

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Speaker 2: telling us, what do you hope to accomplish? What should

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Speaker 2: the patient reader take away?

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Speaker 1: Well, if it is true that mental health diagnoses are

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Speaker 1: on the rise and more people are on psychotropics than

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Speaker 1: they've ever been at any point in history, we have

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Speaker 1: to at least be discerning and skeptical and say, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe the secular therapeutic enterprise doesn't know what it's doing.

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Speaker 1: Is there something better? Is there a better alternative? And

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Speaker 1: that's where I would say, yes, there is the Bible.

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Speaker 1: God has created us, and the Bible has better answers.

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Speaker 1: And many have relegated the Bible to like cute Sunday

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Speaker 1: school hour where we talk about Jonah and the whale,

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Speaker 1: But the Bible actually addresses the deepest problem problems that

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Speaker 1: we have, and frames are anthropology, our understanding of ourselves,

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Speaker 1: our understanding of change, the purpose of our life. So

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Speaker 1: the takeaway for the reader or the listener is, I

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Speaker 1: think we're all sensing there's something wrong with the secular therapeutic.

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Speaker 1: Would you be open to seeing what the Bible has

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Speaker 1: to say about your problems?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the problem is that people are bifurcating church

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Speaker 2: and Bible study and their personal faith and their personal

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Speaker 2: Christian experience and separating that from healthcare, when maybe you're

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Speaker 2: saying there should be a better blend of that, because

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Speaker 2: the Bible is more than telling us to be nice

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Speaker 2: people or ten commandments. It's telling us how to live

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Speaker 2: our lives. I don't want to put words in your mouth,

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Speaker 2: but I'm trying to figure out.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, chease that out. So then think, all right,

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Speaker 1: when I'm go to church on Sunday and my pastor

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Speaker 1: preaches on anxiety, do I draw a line between that

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Speaker 1: and say, well, he's not a mental health professional, so

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Speaker 1: he doesn't really know what anxiety is like, or do

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Speaker 1: I say, wait a minute, maybe my mental health expert,

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Speaker 1: my therapist, psychologist, psychiaticy, maybe they really don't know what

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Speaker 1: anxiety is and my pastor is teaching me directly from

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Speaker 1: God's word. So if you're not careful, this is really

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Speaker 1: a view of the Bible that we're getting at. Where

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Speaker 1: do you believe that the Bible tells you everything that

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Speaker 1: you need to know for life and godliness? Or do

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Speaker 1: you believe that it tells you everything you need to

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Speaker 1: know for Sunday morning tending out a missionary, maybe Sunday

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Speaker 1: school teaching, But when it comes to the real issues

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Speaker 1: of life, the Bible is inadequate or the Bible doesn't

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Speaker 1: talk about those things. That is the doctrine of the

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Speaker 1: sufficiency of scripture, which is that God has provided in

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Speaker 1: his word all that we need for life and godliness.

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Speaker 1: And that's my basic contention. Even if a reader doesn't

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Speaker 1: agree with some of my data, which are all cited,

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Speaker 1: or if a reader doesn't agree with the difference of

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Speaker 1: the mind in the brain, do you believe as a

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Speaker 1: Christian that God has provided in his word all that

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Speaker 1: you need? And if the secular therapeutics not helping you.

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Speaker 1: Would you just give it a shot? Would you be

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Speaker 1: open to it? Because if you have this secular sacred divide,

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Speaker 1: you're going to see your pastor as being well intended

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Speaker 1: and the Bible is being good, but it's not adequate.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm saying is the opposite, where it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: the Bible is adequate, and not only adequate, like it's enough,

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Speaker 1: but it's actually superior than what we are hearing anywhere,

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Speaker 1: especially in the secular therapeutic.

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Speaker 2: So what would be an example of that, What would

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Speaker 2: be a problem where the Bible is enough and we

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Speaker 2: don't need a drug or we don't need the secular approach.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, currently, generalized anxiety disorder is an actual mental disorder,

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Speaker 1: and you could go to a psychiatrist medical doctor and

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Speaker 1: be diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. But if you're using

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Speaker 1: that term anxiety in the same way that the Bible

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Speaker 1: uses that term anxiety, this is a Matthew sixth issue

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Speaker 1: or a Philippian's floor issue, which is I don't have

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Speaker 1: a medical problem, I actually have a faith problem. And

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Speaker 1: there is room for repentance and growing in trust in

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Speaker 1: the word. So if I'm not careful. I go to

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Speaker 1: my therapist and they tell me I have a medical

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Speaker 1: issue and I can't control it, and I can manage

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Speaker 1: symptoms with medications, Whereas the true Biblical answer is, if

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Speaker 1: we're talking about anxiety and the same way the Bible

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Speaker 1: talks about anxiety, I actually need to repent of that

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Speaker 1: and grow in my trust in the Lord and put

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Speaker 1: on a vision of who God really is is sovereign

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Speaker 1: and wise and good. So the wrong diagnosis of generalized

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Speaker 1: anxiety disorder, it's going to lead to a wrong solution.

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Speaker 1: And for reframing this, then think of the implications of this, Michael. So,

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Speaker 1: now instead of me finding transformation or healing or total growth,

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Speaker 1: managing symptoms for the rest of my life gad, Whereas

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Speaker 1: what the Bible office is that you can actually be transformed,

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Speaker 1: which is totally new, made new, or restored to a

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Speaker 1: mint condition. So I'm not managing symptoms for thirty years.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually a different person. So it's even a much

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Speaker 1: more hopeful model if we'll just go back to the

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Speaker 1: Bible instead of letting in the secular therapeutic be our authority.

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Speaker 2: It's very interesting. What about your thought on therapists who

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Speaker 2: may say that they bring a Christian approach or a

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Speaker 2: biblical approach to this rather than a traditional or more

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Speaker 2: common secular approach.

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Speaker 1: Right, And that is true. There are individuals who have

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Speaker 1: been primarily trained in Rogerian counseling, humanistic psychology, psychoanalysis, whatever

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Speaker 1: field that they've been trained in. They're a Christian. They

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Speaker 1: believe in Jesus, they believe in salvation by faith alone

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Speaker 1: in Christs. That's totally true. The question is what pair

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Speaker 1: of eyeglasses are you using. Are you using Abraham Maslow's

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Speaker 1: pair of eyeglasses, are you using Carl Rogers or Sigmund

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Speaker 1: Freud's or are you using the Bible as the eyeglasses

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Speaker 1: through which you're viewing the problem, the solution to the problem,

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Speaker 1: and how to actually maintain so your methods for change

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Speaker 1: long term. So if a person saying, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'm using the Bible as the lens through which I'm

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Speaker 1: viewing everything and helping my counsel ease or my clients,

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Speaker 1: and I would say good for you, like that's the

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Speaker 1: way that it should be done. But if you're sprinkling

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Speaker 1: a proverb into your counseling and ninety nine percent of

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Speaker 1: your counseling is actually what Abraham Maslow said or Carl

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Speaker 1: Roger said. Neither of them were believers are claimed to be.

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Speaker 1: Then you're not really doing what you're claiming to do.

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Speaker 1: You're inserting a proverb here in there about whatever topic,

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Speaker 1: and then you're primarily using the worldview of Rogers or

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Speaker 1: Maslow or Floyd.

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Speaker 2: It's very interesting because it does strike me that many

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Speaker 2: people sort of have compartments in their lives. You know,

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Speaker 2: here's the compartment for church and Bible study and the Word,

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Speaker 2: and then here's the compartment for during the week, and

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Speaker 2: I stop off at counseling on my way home when

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Speaker 2: I leave early on Thursday, and that those two would

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Speaker 2: not be the same, where at least for a believer,

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Speaker 2: you would have to think that you would want the

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Speaker 2: consistency because they're very different messages and they're very different medicines.

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Speaker 2: And it's a very very interesting perspective. I'm Out of Time.

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Speaker 2: The book is by doctor Greg Gifford. Lies my therapist

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Speaker 2: told me, giving us a lot to think about. Thank you,

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Speaker 2: you're welcome.

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Speaker 1: Thank you like to.

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Speaker 2: and often incorporated into our production. Where possible, we give credit,

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Speaker 2: where not, we take all the credit for ourselves. God

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Speaker 2: bless the memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be

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Speaker 2: a simple man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God

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Speaker 2: bless America. Finally, if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD,

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Speaker 2: call Camp Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven

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Speaker 2: PTSD and a combat veteran will answer the phone to

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Speaker 2: provide free counseling.