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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. Okay,

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Speaker 1: will you you mean spelling up your first and last

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Speaker 1: name and maybe well just we'll start with that, and

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Speaker 1: how do you pronounce your name?

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Speaker 2: Cecil c e c I l E leo.

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Speaker 3: L e O.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think that everybody's got family secrets, and

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Speaker 1: we just don't know if this was actually a family secret,

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Speaker 1: this whole lack of information.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I guess it was just something that they'd rather

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Speaker 2: not talk about, you know it, It would be like

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Speaker 2: a family secret.

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Speaker 1: Cecil Leo is a lovely woman. She had lived in

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Speaker 1: Port Arthur, Texas her whole life before she moved closer

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Speaker 1: to Austin to be with her family. She's ninety years

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Speaker 1: old and her husband, Patrick Leo, passed away almost thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago. Patrick's mother, Emma, was a Crawford, and the

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Speaker 1: Crawfords originally came from New Orleans. Cecil didn't know much

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Speaker 1: about her in laws. She knows a lot more now.

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Speaker 1: Cecil didn't understand why her husband never wanted to visit

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Speaker 1: New Orleans, and she had no idea that four members

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Speaker 1: of the Crawford family died under suspicious circumstances, and she

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Speaker 1: certainly didn't know that she had spent two years living

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Speaker 1: with their suspected killer. What happened to the Crawford family

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Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds was a secret that didn't

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Speaker 1: come out until just a few years ago, decades after

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Speaker 1: Cecil's husband died.

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Speaker 2: Soon.

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Speaker 1: If you looking back from what you learned, if you

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Speaker 1: were going to describe kind of the Crawford's family, what.

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Speaker 3: Would that be?

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Speaker 2: If I had to make a decision, I'd say they

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Speaker 2: were a a good family. You know. I I had

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Speaker 2: nothing that I could say ugly about any of'em.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, you and I talk about the story

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Speaker 1: over the phone a little bit, and give me a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of really good information.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, why would we just kind of start

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Speaker 1: with you and your background and kind of where you

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Speaker 1: grew up, when you were born.

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Speaker 5: And where you grew up and all that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I was born in Port Arthur, Texas October sixth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one. I grew up in Port Arthur.

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Speaker 6: Then your husband went by Patrick?

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Speaker 4: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 1: So tell me, if we go back now, how you

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Speaker 1: and Patrick met.

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Speaker 2: Okay, he was twelve years older than I. And I

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Speaker 2: met him when I was twenty three. We were at

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Speaker 2: a a bachelor and bell party. It was a little

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Speaker 2: social that Port Arthur would have every Saturday nights for

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Speaker 2: the single at Girls and Boys. He had been married before,

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Speaker 2: he told me about it. Now he had two sisters,

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Speaker 2: and they didn't reveal any kind of family secrets or

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Speaker 2: they were very I guess you'd say secret about whatever happened.

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Speaker 2: Matter of fact, Edward was looking up something recently. It's

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Speaker 2: been within the last i'd say, a couple of three months,

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Speaker 2: and he told me, he said, did you know ain't

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Speaker 2: Mary was married before? Now I was in that family

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Speaker 2: for thirty years, and I I I didn't know Mary

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Speaker 2: had ever married. I knew her husband a delightful man.

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Speaker 2: And both of the sisters were very very sweet to me.

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Speaker 2: Nanny was kind of distant, and that.

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Speaker 1: Was Annie cuper Right called her.

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Speaker 2: Man nanny, and she was was She wasn't really too

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Speaker 2: much in favor of the Pat. Night when we were dating,

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Speaker 2: and this was not too long before we married. Well,

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Speaker 2: she called me one morning about seven o'clock and she said,

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Speaker 2: is Pat there? And I said no. She said, well

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Speaker 2: he didn't come home last night. I said well, I

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Speaker 2: don't know where he went. I said, he left here

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Speaker 2: about ten thirty or eleven o'clock last night, and I

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Speaker 2: hung up, and I thought that was strange. You know,

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Speaker 2: well I couldn't wait to see him that evening. You know,

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Speaker 2: where'd you go when you left here? He said, well,

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Speaker 2: I went home, and so I told him about Nanni's

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Speaker 2: phone call, and he said, oh, just don't pay attention

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Speaker 2: to her.

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Speaker 1: There was acrimony between Cecil and Nanny because Nanny had

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Speaker 1: lived in the family home for decades. She was head

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Speaker 1: of the household, and now another younger woman was taking over,

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Speaker 1: and Nanny, Annie Crawt Hefford, didn't like that one bit.

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Speaker 2: I stepped in to a home that Nanny had been

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Speaker 2: running for forty years. You know, she came there from

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Speaker 2: New Orleans after all of her problems, which I didn't

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Speaker 2: know anything about.

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Speaker 3: That.

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Speaker 2: See, she lived with us for two years.

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Speaker 1: What years were those?

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Speaker 2: That would be like sixty seven and sixty eight. We

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Speaker 2: married in sixty six. And the reason that she left

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Speaker 2: we felt that she needed to be with someone else.

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Speaker 1: Patrick Leo's mother was Emma Crawford Leo. You'll hear more

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Speaker 1: about her later on. Emma was the eldest of the

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Speaker 1: Crawford sisters, who are near the center of the story.

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Speaker 1: But the real center of this story is Annie Crawford,

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Speaker 1: the suspected murderer of four people in her own family.

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Speaker 1: About fifty years later, Cecil met her husband Patrick, and

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Speaker 1: Patrick never told his wife any of that when Annie

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Speaker 1: lived with them, none of it. Is there a chance

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Speaker 1: he did not know about any of this?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I just cannot imagine, though,

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Speaker 2: that I lived with him for thirty years and he

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Speaker 2: didn't mention something about it.

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Speaker 1: Well, he did have you live with a serial poisoner

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Speaker 1: for two years. He might not be used about telling

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Speaker 1: you after the fact. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a crime

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Speaker 1: historian and the author of the new book All That

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Speaker 1: Is Wicked, which is based on the show's first season.

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Speaker 1: It's available now, including the audio book. I also wrote

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Speaker 1: American Sherlock and Death in the Air. And this is

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Speaker 1: our new season of tenfold war Wicked. And now we're

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Speaker 1: in early nineteen hundreds jazz Age, New Orleans, where the

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Speaker 1: absinthe is plentiful, the bars are packed, and four members

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Speaker 1: of one family will soon be dead. The Crawfords of

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Speaker 1: New Orleans might not have been the large, supportive family

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Speaker 1: that they seem to be from the outside, and Annie

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Speaker 1: Crawford might have been keeping a family secret, several secrets actually,

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Speaker 1: for most of her life. We're calling this season the

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Speaker 1: Morphine Murderess. New Orleans is one of my most favorite

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Speaker 1: cities to visit. It's about an eight hour drive from Austin,

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Speaker 1: and I've been coming here since I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: I love the music, I love the food, I love

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Speaker 1: the people and the city's rich history. Growing up, I

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Speaker 1: sometimes heard that there had been famous murderers here, and

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Speaker 1: the stories of these murders have become part of the

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Speaker 1: lore of the city. There are many many ghost tours

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans, which makes sense because the city feels

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Speaker 1: like it's littered with specters. One of the most interesting cases,

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Speaker 1: and one that has inspired many of these ghost stories,

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Speaker 1: is the Axemen of New Orleans. Beginning in nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 1: the city was terrorized by a serial killer who would

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Speaker 1: go on to murder four people and wound others. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of variations about the number of people

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Speaker 1: who died, so I went with the Smithsonian Magazine's estimation.

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Speaker 1: The axe man killed men, and he killed women. He

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Speaker 1: targeted a series of Italian groceries and butchered his victims

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Speaker 1: with an axe and sometimes a razor. You can almost

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Speaker 1: picture a turn of the century killer creeping around the city,

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Speaker 1: searching out victims in the shadows of homes. Families, particularly

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Speaker 1: in the Italian community, armed themselves. Sicilian immigrants had arrived

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans decades earlier, and many of them lived

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Speaker 1: in the French Quarter near the Mississippi River. The city

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Speaker 1: was already rife with racism, both against black people and

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Speaker 1: Italian immigrants, and then in nineteen nineteen, the murders abruptly stopped.

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Speaker 1: The Axemen of New Orleans was never caught. Those murders

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Speaker 1: are some of the most famous in the history of

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Speaker 1: New Orleans, but unlike the Axemen, the deaths of four

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Speaker 1: members of the Crawford family eight years earlier have largely

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Speaker 1: been lost to history. Terrence Fitzmorris is a professor of

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Speaker 1: history at Tulane University in New Orleans. He specializes in

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Speaker 1: Louisiana history, so he's been very helpful with this true

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Speaker 1: crime story. So let's start with this time period. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about nineteen ten New Orleans. What is it like

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Speaker 1: for the average person.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's hard to say what an average person is,

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Speaker 5: because New Orleans is as late as nineteen ten is

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Speaker 5: still pretty diverse. There are lots of creoles of color

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Speaker 5: as they refer to here. There are descendants of Irish

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Speaker 5: and German immigrants, and there are a lot of Irish

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Speaker 5: and German immigrants who are still alive in nineteen ten.

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Speaker 1: How large is New Orleans? Is it a growing city?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 5: New Orleans is around three hundred and forty thousand people,

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Speaker 5: and it is racially an ethnically diverse. Since the early

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Speaker 5: eighteen nineties, New Orleans has been more or less It's

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Speaker 5: laid the foundations of drainage, sewage and waste disposal, clean

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Speaker 5: running water coming into the house. It has eradicated the

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Speaker 5: threat of yellow fever. There are no more yellow fever

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Speaker 5: epidemics in New Orleans, and so the average person has

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Speaker 5: seen a great deal of improvement in the last twenty

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Speaker 5: years or so.

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Speaker 1: What about religion? Are folks in the early nineteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: especially religious?

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Speaker 5: The city is predominantly Catholic, but it is also religiously pluralistic.

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Speaker 5: The Episcopalians have been in the New Orleans for generations,

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Speaker 5: as have been Methodists, Baptists, Evangelicals, and what is referred

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Speaker 5: to as spiritual churches, which is sort of a hybrid

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Speaker 5: with Voodooism and Catholicism.

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Speaker 1: I would love to do a historical case involving voodooism,

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Speaker 1: but this is not that story. This case attracted a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention in nineteen eleven when a string of

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Speaker 1: suspicious death became public and newspaper readers across the nation

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Speaker 1: were shocked to learn who the suspect really was. Annie

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Speaker 1: Crawford was an enigma, frankly, and part of why she

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Speaker 1: might have become such a surprising suspect is because of

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Speaker 1: the social status of women in this time period, or

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Speaker 1: the lack of social status. Women weren't viewed as equal

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Speaker 1: to men in most of society. Alan Gotrow and Darryl

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Speaker 1: Heppensteele wrote a book called Dark by You, Infamous Louisiana Homicides,

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Speaker 1: and this story is one of their cases featured in

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Speaker 1: the book. I asked Alan about how women were viewed

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans during this time period.

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Speaker 6: The time period, socially, a lot of women are seen

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Speaker 6: as genteel. Of course, the women did work at that time,

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Speaker 6: but women were seen as genteel. They were to be respected.

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Speaker 6: It's post Civil War.

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Speaker 1: Worked like the Crawford women did, but most stayed home

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Speaker 1: to tend to their families. Faith and family were important

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Speaker 1: to many women in the city. Most went to church

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Speaker 1: services regularly, including Annie and her family. The whole Crawford

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Speaker 1: family went to church. And that's a big Catholic church.

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Speaker 1: Have you been inside of Catholic church before, so you

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Speaker 1: see it's big and sometimes they're pretty ornate. This is

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Speaker 1: Saint Stephen's Church in Uptown, New Orleans. Annie Crawford and

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Speaker 1: her family went here for years. They were about Catholics,

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Speaker 1: never till one of them died.

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Speaker 4: That had a real big service.

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Speaker 1: Historian Terence Fince Morris understands the church's history and why

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Speaker 1: the Crawfords and other Irish Catholics were so involved with it.

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Speaker 5: It's an old church. It had been one of the

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Speaker 5: major Irish churches in the city beginning with eighteen thirty five.

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Speaker 1: The Crawfords lived in an area known as Uptown. Author

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Speaker 1: Alan Gotro says it's expensive now, but in nineteen ten

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Speaker 1: Uptown was a working class neighborhood.

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Speaker 6: Back then, they had houses that rental properties mostly, and

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Speaker 6: it was for people that you know, you either lived

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Speaker 6: if you were middle class, you either lived like slightly

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Speaker 6: above the slums, or you rented a property you couldn't

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Speaker 6: really afford to buy it. So there was a lot

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Speaker 6: of rentals at the time, and it's stately Victorian homes,

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Speaker 6: and this was a stately home and it was actually

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Speaker 6: quite large because of the family that lived there at

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Speaker 6: the time.

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Speaker 1: Terence Fitzmorris says the Crawfords were all working class and

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Speaker 1: they worked hard. Walter Crawford was the patriarch. He and

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Speaker 1: his wife Emma, had five daughters, Mayor Agnes, Gertrude, Elise, Emma,

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Speaker 1: and Annie. Terence Fitzmorris says the whole family worked very

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Speaker 1: long hours at jobs that some people would consider ruling.

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Speaker 5: The men worked either for the railway company or owned

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Speaker 5: a saloon, which was the other avenue that irishmen had.

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Speaker 5: You either owned a saloon, a grocery store, or worked

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Speaker 5: for one of the utilities, and they all did that.

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Speaker 1: There weren't that many career options for working families during

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Speaker 1: this time.

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Speaker 5: Her father worked for the Street Railway company. Her uncles

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Speaker 5: were involved in the same line of work. Railway roads

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Speaker 5: were very, very prominent in the city. There were several.

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Speaker 5: There was no union railroad system, so railroads came in

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Speaker 5: and out of the city.

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Speaker 1: Like their father, Annie's younger sister, Elise worked for the railroad.

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Speaker 5: Her sister Elise worked for something called the grand Isle Railroad,

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Speaker 5: which was a local little railroad form New iomng Williams

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Speaker 5: to the island of Grand Island.

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Speaker 1: And what about the women. What did Annie's other sisters do?

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Speaker 5: Her sisters were all stenographers, they were all secretaries. And

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Speaker 5: for women there was the church. You could be a nun,

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Speaker 5: you could be a teacher, but as late as nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 5: Orleans Parish had a rule that married women could not

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Speaker 5: be teachers lest they scandalized their children because they might

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Speaker 5: become pregnant. So as mostly women who were unmarried that

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Speaker 5: were teachers, nurses, domestics, cooks, but not chefs. Cooks were

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Speaker 5: all open to women.

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Speaker 1: The Crawfords all had good jobs, tough jobs, but they

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Speaker 1: seemed to be doing well. No one was in jail,

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Speaker 1: no one was in big trouble. They seemed like a

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Speaker 1: quiet family, well maybe to the people around them. First,

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Speaker 1: let's get everyone's name straight. Walter is the father. He

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Speaker 1: was fifty eight. Emma was the mother. She was fifty four,

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Speaker 1: but there was also a daughter named Emma who was

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Speaker 1: thirty three. She had been married to a man named

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Speaker 1: Edward Leo since nineteen oh three and they lived in

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Speaker 1: Port Arthur, Texas. Remember cecil Leo from the start of

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Speaker 1: this episode. The woman who didn't know she was living

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Speaker 1: with a suspected poisoner. That Emma, the daughter was cecil

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Speaker 1: Leo's mother in law. Annie had a sister named Mary Agnes,

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Speaker 1: who was thirty, and she also had an aunt named

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Speaker 1: Mary No more repetitive names. The youngest was Gertrude, who

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Speaker 1: was seventeen. Elise was twenty four, and in nineteen ten,

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Speaker 1: Annie Crawford, the main character of the story, was twenty eight. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so everyone but the younger Emma lived in a large

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Speaker 1: Victorian home on Chestnut Street. I'll visit that house later.

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Speaker 1: I checked the census records for nineteen ten. All of

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Speaker 1: the Crawfords in that house on Chestnut Street were all

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Speaker 1: still alive, but not for long. If you haven't looked

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Speaker 1: at census records from decades ago, you should because they're

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Speaker 1: very interesting. They tell you the ages and genders and

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Speaker 1: addresses of residents, along with their marital status. All four

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Speaker 1: of the younger Crawford women, including Annie, were single. That

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Speaker 1: seems unusual considering how much pressure these women must have

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Speaker 1: felt just to be married. I asked Terrence about that.

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Speaker 1: So there's four young women living in this house, all

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Speaker 1: in their twenties or early thirties, except for Gertrude, who's

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Speaker 1: a teenager. None of them are married. Does that seem

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Speaker 1: unusual to you?

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Speaker 5: I had maiden ants in my family, and I was

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Speaker 5: born in nineteen fifty, so I still had maiden ants.

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Speaker 5: I had great aunts who had married for two or

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Speaker 5: three years, their husbands died, never remarried. But my experience

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Speaker 5: is not that unusual to have that, I mean four, yes,

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Speaker 5: I think that's extremely rare.

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Speaker 1: And maybe they're considered a resource if they're working.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you remove yourself from the family, there

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Speaker 5: goes an income.

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Speaker 1: And even though their house on Chestnut Street was in

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Speaker 1: a working class neighborhood, it was a very large, old

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Speaker 1: Victorian house, which would have been expensive. Actually, in the

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Speaker 1: years since it's been turned into a duplex that's worth

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Speaker 1: more than half a million dollars. So the Crawfords might

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Speaker 1: have needed all of those incomes more than they needed

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Speaker 1: the social status of having married daughters. So this is

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Speaker 1: your working class Irish American family in a large home.

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Speaker 1: They had to have a large home, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: They were renters though, remember they were renters.

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Speaker 1: This was a lively home, full of opinionated women and

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Speaker 1: one relatively non opinionated man. Crawfords came in and out

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Speaker 1: a lot, But the catalyst for my trip to New

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Speaker 1: Orleans was Annie Crawford. A reminder that Annie was in

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Speaker 1: her late twenties. She was a brunette with hair that

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Speaker 1: she wore in a messy bun Annie was petite, at

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Speaker 1: about five feet tall. She had blue eyes, large round spectacles,

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Speaker 1: and a slim build. Annie was very different from her sisters.

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Speaker 1: She dressed conservatively, she didn't date, She didn't want extravagant things.

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Speaker 1: Her sisters enjoyed all of those things, and they seemed

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Speaker 1: to be very lively themselves. But Annie had an acerbic

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Speaker 1: personality at times, like an old soul who had a

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Speaker 1: bitter life still to come. Annie was quiet and bright

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Speaker 1: and a homebody, but she was rarely friendly. She scowled

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Speaker 1: often when she wasn't expressionless. There was a coolness about her.

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Speaker 1: She didn't seem close or affectionate to anyone, with the

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Speaker 1: exception of her eldest sister, Emma. But now Emma lived

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Speaker 1: in Texas with her husband, so Annie was all alone.

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Speaker 1: Annie worked at a sanitarium and nursing school in New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: which was a hospital that treated long term illnesses like tuberculosis.

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Speaker 1: It was called the New Orleans Sanitarium and Training School

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Speaker 1: for Nurses. It was later renamed the Presbyterian Hospital. She

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Speaker 1: worked in the medicine dispensary, which meant she was in

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Speaker 1: charge of allocating medicine to doctors to give to patients.

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Speaker 1: Working in a sanitarium seems like it would be a

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Speaker 1: sought after job, I asked Terrence about it.

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Speaker 5: One of the more prestigious institutions in New Orleans was

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Speaker 5: the Medical College that eventually became Tulane University in the

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Speaker 5: eighteen eighties. So Annie working in a hospital, or in

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Speaker 5: this case, a Presbyterian or faith based hospital was quite

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Speaker 5: a nice job to have.

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Speaker 1: Annie must have been bright. Did you have an impression

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Speaker 1: of anyone's personality in this house aside from Anny, I

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Speaker 1: think the.

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Speaker 5: Sister Gertrude is young and naive, and I think she's

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Speaker 5: also impressionable, and she probably dislikes Annie because Annie seems

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Speaker 5: to be a controlling person. She takes a cue from

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Speaker 5: her Aunt Mary, who does not like Annie at all,

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Speaker 5: because they have they're in conflict.

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Speaker 1: Aunt Mary lived nearby with her husband, Robert Crawford, who

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Speaker 1: was Walter Crawford's brother. Aunt Mary never seemed to like Annie.

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Speaker 1: She thought that her niece was very controlling, and Aunt

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Speaker 1: Mary's feelings of mistrust would only deepen later that year.

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Speaker 1: Cecil Leo felt the same way about Annie's controlling personality

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Speaker 1: even decades later, when they lived together. Cecil says that

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Speaker 1: Annie was aloof during that time.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember which it was one of my brother's

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Speaker 2: children that one of the pictures I had that they

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Speaker 2: were talking to her, you know, it was just taken

357
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Speaker 2: at random snapshots that we had, So she was communicating

358
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Speaker 2: if the Cajun arose well, she'd communicate with people, but

359
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Speaker 2: she sat to herself most of the time.

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Speaker 1: Cecila says that Annie spent most of her time as

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Speaker 1: she grew older just sitting in a corner of their home,

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Speaker 1: quietly watching people and That's how she was. When Cecil

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Speaker 1: and Pat got married.

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Speaker 2: We had a nice wedding and Nanny was there. She

365
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Speaker 2: was there very quietly.

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Speaker 1: Annie was always quiet, even during the holidays.

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Speaker 2: I can't even remember Nanny ever even laughing, you know,

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Speaker 2: or uh. She was very subdued. She sat at the

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Speaker 2: end of the couch there, and it looks like she

370
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Speaker 2: never moved. There was that one spot. I have a

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Speaker 2: couple of pictures I wished I had brought of her.

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Speaker 2: I took over at Christmas time, you know, but I'd

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Speaker 2: have everybody at the house for Christmas dinner and she,

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Speaker 2: I mean, she wasn't a part of their activities or

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Speaker 2: anything like that, but she'd get up from the couch

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Speaker 2: and she'd walked at the table and we had a

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Speaker 2: spot for her.

378
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Speaker 3: But she.

379
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: Was there and that was it. Never engaged in conversation

380
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Speaker 2: or anything like that. Very quiet.

381
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Speaker 1: Annie Crawford did not seem to fit in anywhere, and

382
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Speaker 1: she didn't react well to other women with strong personalities.

383
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Speaker 1: That was not good. Junia, New Orleans is usually hot

384
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Speaker 1: and balmyt which can be unbearable. Now imagine that human

385
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: heat with no air conditioning and no electric fans around

386
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: the turn of the century, electric fans were beginning to

387
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: be used, but only in upscale businesses or in wealthy households.

388
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: They would become more affordable by the nineteen twenties, but

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Speaker 1: in June of nineteen ten, New Orleans was hot and humid.

390
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Speaker 1: The only real relief came from paper fans or chips

391
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: from ice blocks or a dip in the Mississippi. This

392
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Speaker 1: uncomfortable weather could make even the best natured person irritable.

393
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: Folks in Louisiana had a host of options to cope

394
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Speaker 1: with that irritation, including drugs and alcohol. Especially alcohol. Bar

395
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: patrons in the city would buy rye, whiskey, cognac, and

396
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Speaker 1: absinthe in very large amounts. They would then spill onto

397
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: the streets and encounter inexperienced and underpaid police officers who

398
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: tried their best to round them all up and stop

399
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: them from getting into fights or falling into the nearby river.

400
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: These type of scenes were the epitome of what frightened

401
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: some conservative political groups. The Anti Saloon League and the

402
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: Women's Christian Temperance Union were both starting the push for

403
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: a dry America, but prohibition wouldn't happen for another decade. Earlier,

404
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: I mentioned that drugs were available. I wondered which drugs

405
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: were illegal in America in nineteen ten, and it turns

406
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: out none of them were illegal. In the mid eighteen hundreds,

407
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: the US had tried to regulate the sale of drugs

408
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: by enacting laws that required they were labeled accurately, so

409
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: if you were buying opium, you knew that you were

410
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: getting opium, not cyanide. Not surprisingly, as the US approached

411
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, prescription opioid addiction became even more prevalent.

412
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: Over the previous four decades, it had increased lest by

413
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 1: more than five hundred percent. It wasn't until the nineteen

414
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: twenties that opium would be classified as a dangerous drug.

415
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: All of these drugs, ones that are illegal now, were

416
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: legal then, and they were deadly if you didn't know

417
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: what you were doing, and if you were addicted to

418
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: these drugs, you were putting yourself at risk, particularly if

419
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: you had unfettered access like someone at a health facility might.

420
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: Author Deborah Blum wrote a book called The Poisoner's Handbook,

421
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: and she knows all about the history of drugs and poisons.

422
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: So you could just get your hands on all this

423
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: crazy stuff. Back then, they put cocaine and medications for kids,

424
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 3: and morphine was also widely available. Right, it's laudanum, which

425
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: they would use to give women when they were upset.

426
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 4: Or had their period or whatever. It was a really

427
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 4: dangerous age in that one.

428
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: She's certainly right. Heroin was in magazines as a cure

429
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: for the incurable cough. One ad read you will need them,

430
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: order your supply. In twenty eighteen, the Smithsonian magazine offered

431
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: an excellent summary of nineteenth century drugs that were perfectly legal.

432
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: John Kelvey wrote, when historians trace back the roots of

433
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: today's opioid epidemic, they often find themselves returning to the

434
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: wave of addiction that swept the US in the late

435
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: nineteenth century. That was when physicians first got their hands

436
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: on morphine, a truly effective treatment for pain, delivered first

437
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: by tablet and then by the newly invented hypodermic syringe.

438
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: With no criminal regulations on morphine or opium or heroine,

439
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: many of these drugs became the secret ingredient and readily available,

440
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: dubiously effective medicines. So that's where we are. An age

441
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: when poisons like arsenic were sold over the counter to

442
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: kill rats, and people at lunch counters across America were

443
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: drinking Coca cola, which of course contained cocaine. Cocaine lozenges

444
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: soothed the sore throats of children, and if that didn't work,

445
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: then cough syrup laced with morphine would lull them to sleep.

446
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: At her job at the sanitarium, Annie Crawford had access

447
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: to all types of narcotics. By nineteen ten, Annie had

448
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: worked there for about five years, and she seemed quite

449
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: good at her job. Author Alan Gotrow explained what she did.

450
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 6: What she would do is took care of the patients.

451
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 6: I don't think she administered vaccines or any things of

452
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 6: that type. It was mostly of a custodial type of

453
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 6: a thing that she did. But she had access to

454
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 6: a lot of the drugs that were in that particular asylum.

455
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: So Annie wasn't a trained nurse, yet she had access

456
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: to a lot of medicine. That seemed unusual to me.

457
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: So I asked historian Terrence fe It's Morris about it.

458
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 5: It doesn't seem unusual to me, given the lack of

459
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 5: pain management as we call it today, whether drugs are

460
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 5: regulated and the doctors are highly trained and the use of

461
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 5: drugs and how they should be administered.

462
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: Tarren says that there were a lot of Civil War

463
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: soldiers who were addicts and unscrupulous doctors who preyed on them.

464
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 5: Their wounds lasted their entire lifetime because of how primitive,

465
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: comparatively so their medical treatments were. And so as these

466
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 5: old veterans come in, these doctors are telling them, you

467
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 5: can be cured of all the pain that you're suffering,

468
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 5: whether it's a wound or a mental wound. And those

469
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 5: newspapers are filled with that sort of stuff.

470
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: Heroin was one of those cures for morphine. So by

471
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: nineteen ten, addiction was skyrocketing across America, including in New Orleans.

472
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: It affected families just like the Crawfords. I had a

473
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: difficult time sorting out the personalities of the two men

474
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: in the Crawford family, Walter Crawford and his brother Robert

475
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: Terence Fitzmorris had a hard time with that too.

476
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 5: I think the men are non descript. I don't know

477
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 5: where they are.

478
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: It's because they never popped up in the local newspapers,

479
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: even when their wives were mentioned in them. For going

480
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: to local events. Annie was certainly not nondescript. She was

481
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: controlling and judgmental and frequently unpleasant.

482
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 6: Well, my impression was probably Annie was the problem child.

483
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: Hmm okay.

484
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 6: And you know when you have problem children, they're very

485
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 6: rebellious against their parents.

486
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: Terence Fitzmorris says that Annie Crawford seemed to lack that

487
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: famous Southern charm even in her own home.

488
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 5: The newspapers do depict her as creepy, They do depict

489
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 5: her as extremely eccentric, right, But she was a and

490
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 5: there was no doubt about it, and she did try

491
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 5: to rule the roost, didn't she.

492
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: It was June of nineteen ten when Annie stepped off

493
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: the streetcar to go to her job at the hospital.

494
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: It was about three miles from her home on Chestnut Street.

495
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: The facility was called a model hospital for patients and physicians.

496
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: It had electric elevators and clean rooms. It was huge.

497
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: There were three three story buildings which took up two

498
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: city blocks. Loads of people worked at the sanitarium. Doctors

499
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: and nurses and patients constantly came in and out. It

500
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: was easy to slip away for a moment. It was

501
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: easy to be sneaky. Annie arrived at the hospital in

502
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: June of nineteen ten, for her normal shift at the

503
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: medicine dispensary, she walked over to the cabinet where the

504
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: drugs were stored. She worked with these medicines every day.

505
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: Annie watched patients writhing in pain who would be calmed

506
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: by these powerful sedatives. Annie had never mixed up medicine before,

507
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: but she understood very clearly how potent the narcotics were,

508
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: and she could identify each of the bottles and what

509
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: pills were inside them. Annie opened the door to the

510
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: medicine cabinet and examined the bottles. There were small white

511
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: capsules inside. Unbelievably, the cabinet was usually left out in

512
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: the open for anyone to see. A nurse watched from

513
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: behind the door as Annie's hand moved to her pocket,

514
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: and when the nurse glanced away, Annie Crawford had disappeared.

515
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: Annie worked steadily for the next few weeks, but she

516
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: sensed that people were watching her. Then her supervisor called

517
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: her into his office. He told Annie that she had

518
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: been an exemplary war for years, but over the past

519
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: several weeks, nurses and doctors noticed that large amounts of

520
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: morphine and other drugs had gone missing from the dispensary.

521
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: She was fired immediately. Why was she taking the drugs?

522
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: Was she selling them or taking them herself? Or was

523
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: it something else. Annie quietly left the hospital without a fuss.

524
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: A month went by and she still hadn't secured another job.

525
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: But luckily she had her large family to lean on.

526
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: Her father had a steady job as a carpenter at

527
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: the railway, Her two other sisters were employed. Young Gertrude

528
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: was still in school. Everything would be okay for the Crawfords.

529
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: One day in June of nineteen ten, Annie Crawford returned

530
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: to her old Victorian home on Chestnut Street, ready to

531
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: see her family. She greeted her thirty year old sister,

532
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes. Mary Agnes and Annie were the closest in age,

533
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: just a two year difference, and Mary Agnes had once

534
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: worked for the same sanitarium where Annie had worked, but

535
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes had resigned earlier that year. The two of

536
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: them should have been close, but they didn't seem to

537
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: be now. Mary Agnes worked as a stenographer at the

538
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: nearby railway station. A stenographer is trained to type or

539
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: write in shorthand for official documents. Like court transcriptions. In

540
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, shorthand was used by supervisors to

541
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: record conversations or to dictate long letters, or to preserve speeches.

542
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: Author Charles Dickens was a big fan of shorthand. Young

543
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: female students took shorthand courses in school. It was a

544
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: sought after job, and Mary Agnes seemed to be good

545
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: at it. Mary Agnes had dark brown hair, wide set eyes,

546
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: and pale skin. She was reserved, but she seemed close

547
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: to everyone in the family, except for Annie. Annie had

548
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: always seemed cold to her and distant. That could have

549
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: resulted from mental health struggles, or a personality disorder, or

550
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: an autism spectrum disorder, or maybe it was just her personality.

551
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: That June evening, Mary Agnes ate dinner as her sister

552
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: Annie milled around the kitchen eyeing her. The night began

553
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: as it normally would, but within a few hours of

554
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: finishing her dinner, Mary Agnes began to complain a lot.

555
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: She held her forehead and closed her eyes. The dim

556
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: light of the gas lamp in the house made her

557
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: headache worse. Her mother, Emma, suggested she lay down. Annie

558
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: volunteered to prepare her headache powder, but the symptoms were

559
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: becoming worse and they were affecting more than her head.

560
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes's neck felt stiff and achy. Her mother felt

561
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: her forehead. She was very hot. She obviously had a fever.

562
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: Anne Annie walked over quickly, Let me care for her.

563
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 1: Annie insisted she gripped a glass of water in her hand.

564
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes struggled to sit up and take a sip,

565
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: but Annie helped raise her head. The sisters were all

566
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: quiet now. Mary Agnes fell asleep and dozed all night.

567
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: The next morning, Elice Crawford didn't think Mary Agnes seemed

568
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: any better, But despite Mary Agnes's illness, Annie was calm.

569
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: She didn't panic, but her mother did. She quickly sent

570
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: Annie next door to make a call. Because the Crawfords

571
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: didn't have a phone themselves. Annie rushed to the neighbor's

572
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: home and rang the operator. We need a doctor, please,

573
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: she told the person on the other end of the line,

574
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: and soon help came knocking at the door. The physician

575
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: was a local generalist named doctor H. B. Gessner. He

576
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: thumbed through the various pills and syringes inside his leather

577
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: medicine bag. He retrieved his thermomon and asked Mary Agnes

578
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: to hold it under her tongue. She did indeed have

579
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: a fever. Annie hovered nearby as Mary Agnes quietly described

580
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: her symptoms, her sensitivity to light and her cracking headaches.

581
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: She had suddenly become disoriented when she had felt fine

582
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: at work just the day before. Mary Agnes was beginning

583
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: to feel nauseous now and her neck still ached. She

584
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: moaned and closed her eyes. She fell asleep. As doctor

585
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: Gessner continued to examine her. He asked if she had

586
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: taken any medicine. No, replied everyone. He nodded and scribbled notes,

587
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: recording his conclusion based on her symptoms. Mary Agnes had

588
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: spinal meningitis. This was a serious diagnosis. Spinal meningitis is

589
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 1: an infection of the fluid and membranes around the brain

590
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: in the spinal cord, and the disease can move quickly.

591
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: Without proper treatment, it can cause brain damage and even death.

592
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: In nineteen ten, there were serums for the disease, but

593
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: none really offered protection. Penicillin would eventually become a treatment,

594
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: but the important antibiotic wouldn't even be discovered for another

595
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: twenty years. Here's the issue. There was no way a

596
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: general practitioner would be able to conclusively determine if Mary

597
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: Agnes were to die from meningitis. Today's doctors would do

598
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: a lumbar puncture or a spinal tap to collect spinal

599
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: fluid to test for meningitis, but that test was just

600
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: introduced in eighteen ninety, so it wasn't widely available in

601
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. There was no reason for the doctor to

602
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: believe that this was anything other than meningitis. There was

603
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: little for the family to do except to pray that

604
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: Mary Agnes's body would heal on its own and that

605
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 1: she might survive. Annie Crawford watched as her parents wept.

606
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: She surveyed everyone in the family. The imminent death of

607
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: a sister would be terrible, but this story was about

608
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: to get so much worse. On this season of tenfold

609
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: War wicked on exactly right.

610
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 4: If you're a poisoner that one of your primary objectives

611
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 4: is to get away with it, You're not making a

612
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 4: statement killer. That's not what you do as a poisoner.

613
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 4: You're figuring out how to eliminate a problem, a person,

614
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 4: a threat, obstacle to your wealth.

615
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: I mean I wasn't a good nurse, and I remember

616
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 3: to saying like, I'm going to kill someone if.

617
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: I keep doing this.

618
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 6: So what is the motive. Let's eliminate the impossible and

619
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 6: see what's possible. Could it be that she just truly enjoyed.

620
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: Killing yep, could be Yeah.

621
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 6: So the motive is not secondary. I just think that

622
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 6: there's a couple of them there.

623
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: If you love a good, real ghost story. My new

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626
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631
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632
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Speaker 1: producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Mrosi and Natalie Wrinn, sound designer

633
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Speaker 1: Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

634
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Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Daniel Kramer. Follow us

635
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637
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638
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