1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stupidity, home of the greatest media mind ever 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: to walk the planet. Okay, sure, here's the deal. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 2: He's a true icon in every sense of the word. 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: He's loved and feared more than any being to Grace's planet. 5 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: There's goods. Hey, I'm bad with a voice that sounds 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: like Verry White. 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 3: And be got to say, Hey, let's do it, baby. 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: You God himself would pay thirty nine ninety nine for 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: a cameo. Fact of the matter is you are about 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: to embark on a transcendent experience that can only be 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: described as psychological nudity. This is stox and this is stupidity. 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 2: Here we go, jump hoding, Mikey, I have a question 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: for you. We got Are you into trash talking? Do 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: you love trash talking when you play sports? Do you 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: trash talk like? 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 4: It depends on the sport. But Mike go to was 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 4: always to get you mad by laughing at you and 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 4: not saying a word, and it made people so mad. 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: Wait, so let me just paint this picture. You would 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: play like a pickup game of basketball and you would 21 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 2: just laugh at the guy that you were guarding, which 22 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: is you playing basketball? As a funny visual in itself. 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: I love you, but I had to. 24 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 4: Say no, you're right. But I was thinking more when 25 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 4: I played football, Like if I was playing football, you know, 26 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 4: I would I'd block somebody and then or I'd beat 27 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 4: them for a sack or something, and they'd get mad 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 4: and start trash talking. I just laugh at them, and 29 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 4: then it just became this whole thing. I always like 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 4: to go out of the box. My nephew. Actually, he 31 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 4: sings frozen to people he's guarding as a D one athlete. 32 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 4: He sings let it Go. It's amazing, and they get 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 4: so mad at him because swartzes play. He's a D 34 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 4: one lacrosse player at Ohio State. 35 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: All right, so he's at Ohio State, a D one 36 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: lacrosse player. 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 4: This is defend who by the way, my nephew. 38 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is your nephew. I have to make 39 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: an introduction to someone I know who plays on the 40 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: Ohio State women's team. Okay, so remind me of that late. 41 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 5: Let's do that. 42 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: And what you're telling me is he runs around and 43 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: he sings what to the opponents. 44 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 4: Frozen, let it go, whatever, whichever one he thinks of, 45 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 4: and they get really mad because he won't stop. 46 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: Okay, really, get your nephew on the podcast, by the way. 47 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: I want to talk to him about this. And so 48 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: he claims that it works. 49 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 4: Right, I've seen it work. I've actually seen it work. 50 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 4: They'll throw a punch from nowhere because he won't stop 51 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 4: singing let it go. 52 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: So he's trying like he's trying to get inside their 53 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: head by it, you know, just well by singing and 54 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: giving off that he's crazy. 55 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, a little bit. It's gottle bit. 56 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 5: How do you play by him? I like this, nephew 57 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 5: of yours. 58 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: Get him on, Okay. I asked this because we're gonna 59 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: have Raffi kohen On, who has written a book called 60 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: trash Talk. It's the only book ever written about trash talking, 61 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: I believe. And there is like an art, a science, 62 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: a psychology to all this that I think you and 63 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: I are going to be fascinated with because we love 64 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: trash talking. I don't personally like if I'm playing. I 65 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: don't like when someone's talking trash to me. I'm not 66 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: good enough at anything to talk trash to them, Okay, 67 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: but I do love a good trash talk, you know. 68 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 69 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 4: I mean it's become such a part of the game. 70 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 4: I'm so interested in this interview on how to do it, 71 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 4: like on how it affects people so much just to 72 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 4: have somebody talking to them. Right. 73 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: We had Christian Wilkins on the main show, the Dolphins 74 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: Defensive Tackle. He's great, by the way, but he's a 75 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: he's a you know, he's a trash talker. He's a 76 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: noted trash talker. He loves it, he embraces it, but 77 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: he really gets into it, like he spots a weakness, 78 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: he looks for weaknesses in your game, and then he 79 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: goes after that player. 80 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 5: I love that. 81 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: That's the kind of shit I want to talk about 82 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: right now with RAFFI. 83 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 4: You know, See, the thing about trash talk is you 84 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: have to be good enough to Like, if you're if 85 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: you're Mike Golick and you start talking trash, nobody cares. 86 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 5: But if you're if you're Reggie White and you. 87 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 4: Start trash talking, then it becomes a thing. 88 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: Right or you just let your play, you know, do 89 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: the talking for you. 90 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 5: But that's not fun. 91 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I want to if I was so good 92 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: at something, so good at a sport, I would want 93 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: to beat you so badly, but also let you know 94 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: verbally that I am beating you as it's happening. But 95 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: I'm not good enough. You know, I'm not good enough. 96 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: Neither is Cohen. But he's a good writer. He's a 97 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: hell of a writer. And he wrote a book called 98 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: trash Talk, and he joins us now, Raffie Cohed. He 99 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,559 Speaker 2: has a new book out, trash Talk. He's a great writer. 100 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: We'll get to why he wrote the book besides money 101 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: in just a second. But I am wondering, because the 102 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: book is out today wherever you buy your books, Raffie, 103 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: I am wondering when the when the day comes and 104 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: the day is here as we tape this h when 105 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: you're releasing a book, are you checking sales NonStop? 106 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 5: Like, what are you doing? 107 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: Take us through today, because I'd be checking NonStop to 108 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: make sure people were buying my book. 109 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 110 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 6: On the one hand, you're definitely lying if you don't 111 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 6: if you say you don't care at all about you know, 112 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 6: the moving units and the ticker and all that. But 113 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 6: at the same time, there's not actually a good metric 114 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 6: that you can check on the day of sales. The 115 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 6: best you can do is go look at like Amazon ranks, 116 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 6: and that's such a small snapshot that it may be 117 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 6: capturing what's happening and it might not. So if this 118 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 6: is my second book, my for my first book, I 119 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 6: was definitely on there, just hitting refresh every five minutes 120 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 6: and just seeing seeing how things were going. This time, 121 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 6: I'm trying to restrain myself and you know, give the 122 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 6: process a little bit more. 123 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 5: Time to play out. How the first book did it. 124 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 6: It did well well, critically acclaimed about sports stadiums, and 125 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 6: you know, found a nice audience. 126 00:05:58,279 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 5: Very nice. 127 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: Why did you write this book besides them? Because we're 128 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: all writing books for money? Okay, so that goes without saying. 129 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: And I don't mean to put you in a bad spot, 130 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 2: but why do you decide to write this particular book? 131 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 5: Yeah? 132 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 6: If I obviously everyone knows that writing is the path 133 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 6: to wealth society these days. Well, the truth is so 134 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 6: the book, right, it's about trash talk and trash talk. 135 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 6: I mean, I don't I don't know, Like I know, 136 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 6: I can curse and then it'll get bleeped, but I 137 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 6: don't know like how much cursing I can do here. 138 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: You can curse as much as you want and it 139 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: won't get bleeped. Because Billy's not here this week. 140 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 4: I mean, no, I have to do it. 141 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 5: I was gonna say, Billy, but you know anyway. 142 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, Billy, You're right, You're actually right about that, 143 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: and just curse. 144 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 5: Let it fly man, mikey A will take care of it. 145 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 6: But the truth is, because trash talk is awesome, That's 146 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 6: why I wanted to write this book. 147 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 5: I mean, I've I'm gonna. I grew up in the nineties. 148 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 5: I'm a kid of the nineties. 149 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 6: Trash talk was at its peak in the nineties, and 150 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 6: obviously it existed before that, and you can find examples 151 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 6: of people talking before that. But like literally as a 152 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 6: phenomenon with the title and the term of trash talk, 153 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 6: that is nineteen nineties, it was. It was. The term 154 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 6: was coined to nineteen eighties basically, and it hit its 155 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 6: peak around nineteen ninety three. You know, it became this 156 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 6: kind of like trend story worthy phenomenon. Sports editors were 157 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,559 Speaker 6: assigning long form features about it. Everybody was talking about 158 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 6: trash talk, and it was. It was in the air, 159 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 6: and you know, I was fascinated by these guys that 160 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 6: were just talking trash on the court. You know, guys 161 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 6: like Gary Payton, you know, you see them and there's 162 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 6: something there's something edgy about them, there's something charismatic about them, 163 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 6: and I was really drawn to that. It was it 164 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 6: was very magnetic seeing these guys and not necessarily understanding 165 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 6: everything that was going on, like what was really happening 166 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 6: on the court with you know, with the with the 167 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 6: crap that they were talking. And then you know, as 168 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 6: you get older, you know, I you know, I play 169 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 6: amateur sports, I played sports in high school, and you 170 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 6: see that there's all these various sort of functionality at 171 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 6: the some permutations of trash talk and kind of start 172 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 6: to wonder, well, what's that all about? And nobody had 173 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 6: ever written a book about trash talk before, amazing as 174 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 6: that is, so that I figured this might be my lane. 175 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 4: I'm curious at what point, I'm sure you studied the 176 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: history of all this, at what point it sort of 177 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 4: went from something that was like frowned upon to something 178 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 4: that was considered part of the game, or part of 179 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 4: your game at least. 180 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: Good question. 181 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's a it's a great question. 182 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 6: And and the truth is is that I think it's 183 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 6: always a cycle, because trash talk has existed since the 184 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 6: beginning of time, basically since the Bible, since the Homeric poems, 185 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 6: guys were talking crap to each other, David to Goliath. 186 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 5: It was he was talking to you. That's how he 187 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 5: got it within range of his shepherd's sling. You know, 188 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 5: I would love to know. I'm going to strike you 189 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 5: down and cut off your head. And then yeah, and 190 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 5: your mom too, classic classic David tug. You know. 191 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 6: So it's it's always been around, right, And basically it's 192 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 6: existed throughout time and across cultures, and at various times 193 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 6: we kind of recognize. 194 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 5: It for what it is, which is the language of competition. 195 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 6: It's a way that we can communicate when we're competing 196 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 6: against one another, and at other times we kind of 197 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 6: don't recognize what's happening. 198 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 5: And that's kind of what happened. 199 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 6: In the US in the nineteen eighties and into the 200 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 6: nineties as the sort of new form of modern trash 201 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 6: talk was emerging from you know, basketball playground courts, out 202 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 6: of the culture of hip hop. You know, it's become 203 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 6: sort of like a racialized and stigmatized thing. And right 204 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 6: after these trend stories pop up and everyone's talking about 205 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 6: whoa look at this, Everyone's talking crap. Then suddenly people 206 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 6: are saying, wait a minute, this is unsportsmanlike, we should 207 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 6: put an end to this. This is somehow like a 208 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 6: moral flaw that you're exhibiting. And and so there was 209 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 6: definitely like an enormous backlash as result of that in 210 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 6: the nineteen nineties and has continued on. You know, someone 211 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 6: like Gary Payton, I think is a really important figure 212 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 6: in the evolution of modern trash talk and sort of 213 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 6: our conception of it, because he was getting texts. You know, 214 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 6: the Sonics hired a private detective before they would draft him, 215 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 6: you know, before as the number two overall pick. I 216 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 6: believe he was initially left off the nineteen ninety six 217 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 6: US basketball roster, the Olympic roster because this is a 218 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 6: quote from Sports Illustrated. I'm not going to get it 219 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 6: exactly right, but basically, like they wanted guys who weren't 220 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 6: going to cause an international incident, and so Gary Payton 221 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 6: was not that guy. But he dealt with that and 222 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 6: he lost you know, commercial and marketing opportunities, but he 223 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 6: didn't change his game. He kept talking the same, he 224 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 6: was always talking, and ultimately he helped change the perception 225 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 6: of that and it became kind of a thing that 226 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 6: was cool and accepted instead of deviant and. 227 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 5: Like, you know, somehow like a moral failure of some kind. 228 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: So is Gary Payton considered the greatest trash talker of 229 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: all time? 230 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 6: I don't think you can put anyone above Muhammad Ali. 231 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 6: I mean I think yeah, I don't think so. I 232 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 6: don't think so. I mean GP is great and one 233 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 6: of my personal favorites, just because he is so uniquely 234 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 6: and unapologetically himself. I mean, I got I had respect 235 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 6: for Gary Payton before I started reporting this book, but 236 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 6: then after talking to him, after talking to his former coaches, 237 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 6: well George Carl in particular, and guys who played with him, 238 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 6: you just realized Gary is a maniac on the floor 239 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 6: in the best possible way. I mean, George Carl literally 240 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 6: told me that he would play him for forty eight 241 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 6: minutes some games because he did not want to take 242 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 6: him out and have to hear his shit like that 243 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 6: is why he would play Gary Payton for forty eight minutes. 244 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: Give me some examples of the pettiest trash talk game 245 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 2: that you unearthed as you were putting this book together. 246 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 6: Okay, well, I mean we what's interesting about the pettiness 247 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 6: of trash talking is I mean, the first person who 248 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 6: comes to mind to me, of course is of course 249 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 6: or not of course is Kevin Durant. And that's just 250 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 6: you know, if you're gonna have you know, burner accounts 251 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 6: and you're applying to guys online, you know, that's kind 252 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 6: of as pit petty as it gets. But I'll just 253 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 6: say one thing about petty before I give you my 254 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,479 Speaker 6: the like my favorite petty you know, moment of pettiness. 255 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 6: And that is so there was a believe it or not, 256 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 6: there was a study that came out of the University 257 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 6: of Pennsylvania and Georgetown a few years ago that looked 258 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 6: at trash talk in the workplace and. 259 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 5: One of the things they found. 260 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 6: One of the effects that it has is it makes 261 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 6: you the target of the trash talk more motivated, not 262 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 6: to win, but. 263 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 5: To see your opponent loose. Right, And the way I 264 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 5: read that is interesting extremely is that means you're extremely petty. 265 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 5: You have reached peak level of pettiness. 266 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 6: Well, the point is right that that pettiness is baked 267 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 6: into trash talk. If you're talking there, you are introducing 268 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 6: pettiness to the competition. So actually I'll give you two stories. 269 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 6: One is there's a golfer, a Mexican American golfer named 270 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 6: Abraham Answer right, and he was playing I think he 271 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 6: was asked before the President's got He was playing for Mexico, 272 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 6: and he said, if you and someone asked him, if 273 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 6: you could play for anyone, if you could play, you know, 274 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 6: be paired up with anyone, you know, who would it be. 275 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 6: You're about to, you know, play in the US. He said, 276 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 6: I would love to play against Tiger Woods. You know, 277 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 6: he's been you know, my hero my entire life. That 278 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 6: would be the thrill of a lifetime. I don't know 279 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 6: if those are his words, but that was the sensement 280 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 6: behind it. And the way that Tiger received this information 281 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 6: was basically, like as I put it in the book, 282 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 6: as if Answer had taken a dump on his driver, 283 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 6: Like that was the level of antagonism that he felt 284 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 6: was coming at him. And he played with no mercy 285 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 6: and no remorse, and he beat He beat Abraham Answer, 286 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 6: And at the end of it he says. 287 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 5: To the press, well, he asked for it. 288 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 6: He got it right, basically as petty as against. 289 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 5: But the other one is there's a Gary Payton story. 290 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 5: That's not in the book. 291 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 6: Actually is that basically his biggest rival, I believe now 292 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 6: works at the y m c A or the you know, 293 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 6: the Boys, Boys and Girls Club of America. This guy 294 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 6: name which is a fun headline in and of itself, 295 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 6: but uh, this guy named Keith Smith. He was recruited 296 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 6: to cal which of course was Gary Payton's backyard. 297 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 5: And you know, GP was not. 298 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 6: He went to, uh, went to Oregon State, and he 299 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 6: spent four years of college trying to make Keith Smith's 300 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 6: life a living hell. He went harder at him than 301 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 6: anyone else because he was the representation of every phone call. 302 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 6: He didn't get every recruiting letter, he didn't get every 303 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 6: coach who didn't ask him out for a tryout. That 304 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 6: was just Keith Smith and that and that fueled him, 305 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 6: you know, that was that was that petty motivation, right, 306 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 6: can become fuel in some ways. 307 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: It seems like there are better to trash talking both ways, 308 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: meaning if you're the recipient, it might motivate you more. 309 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: But if you, you know, if you're praying on, if 310 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: you're the guy who's giving it or the athlete that's 311 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: giving it to someone who's perceived as as weak, then 312 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: it's going to help the athlete who's actually getting There 313 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: are benefits to trash talking, are they not? 314 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 5: Oh, there's no question absolutely. 315 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 6: I mean I get into the whole of the science 316 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 6: and psychology of trash talk. I would say, though, the 317 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 6: thing that's important is that would be trash talkers, you know, 318 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 6: to ought to be more strategic and or they can 319 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 6: be more strategic and more effective if they actually understand 320 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 6: how this stuff works, because there's real psychology at play here, right, 321 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 6: So what you're describing the guy who's going out, someone 322 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 6: who is weak, who's maybe vulnerable, you know absolutely what 323 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 6: you're trying to essentially what you're trying to do, and 324 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 6: this is basically what you know. One aspect of someone 325 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 6: like Kevin Garnett's game is he was talking to guys trying. 326 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 5: To intimidate them. 327 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 6: And what what you're effectively saying is the demands of 328 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 6: playing against me are greater than the resources that you have. 329 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 6: You do not have the resources to meet the demands 330 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 6: of what I'm bringing into the table. And what happens 331 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 6: physiologically and biologically is we enter into what's known as 332 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 6: either a challenger or a threat state based on you 333 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 6: know based on you know, when stress is introduced. You know, 334 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 6: we have one of two stress responses, and if you 335 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 6: think you have the resources to meet the demand, you 336 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 6: enter a challenge state. On the other side, you enter 337 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 6: a threat state, and there's literally physiological differences in your 338 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 6: body downstream effects that happen as a result, Like your 339 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 6: heart beats faster either way, but like your heart rate 340 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 6: variability either goes up and goes down. 341 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 5: Which is a measure of efficiency. 342 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 6: Your pulmonary vasculature either expands and so blood can rush 343 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 6: out to your extremities and you're ready to take something 344 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 6: on or it constricts. And what that does is it 345 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 6: basically shunts the blood back to your internal organs. Because 346 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 6: in a threat state, and this is primal, we're basically 347 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 6: preparing to be attacked. It's as if it's as if 348 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 6: a lion is going to jump on us in the savannah. 349 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 6: That is how our body reacts. And when that happens, 350 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 6: there's major performance performance you know, repercussions as a result 351 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 6: of that. So there's no question So like trying to 352 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 6: make someone so it's packing someone who's vulnerable, who thinks 353 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 6: they're vulnerable, or saying something that someone might have a 354 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 6: doubt about in insecurity, and you can say something that 355 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 6: resonates with those doubts, that has real impact. 356 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 4: I got, I got a million dollar idea here, and 357 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 4: I think you're just the person to come aboard on this. 358 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 4: I think we should come up with some sort of 359 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 4: metric for athletics on how susceptible you are to trash talk? Okay, 360 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 4: basimply and I mean we'll give it a rating. 361 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 2: Hold on, listen, Mike, he's got a business idea here 362 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 2: and he's giving you a chance to get in. Do 363 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 2: you want in with us? 364 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 5: Okay? 365 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: Cause you have to be the guy that does the 366 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: research right. 367 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 6: Well, maybe we can recruit some like an AI model 368 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 6: to help us with that, but it's. 369 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 5: To find those moments. 370 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 6: But the truth that that is a question that I 371 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 6: put to a lot of people is like, can you 372 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 6: actually like find out like you know, analytics, like can 373 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 6: we apply analytics to talking trash? Can we find out 374 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 6: those moments where someone is going to be most susceptible? 375 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 6: And the pert I didn't get a lot. I got 376 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 6: a couple of interesting answers. The one that intrigued me 377 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 6: the most which is not which is not? Like satisfying 378 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 6: and of itself came from Shane Battier when he was 379 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 6: still working, you know, in the front office of the 380 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 6: Miami Heat. And he was like, to tell you the truth, 381 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 6: I have an idea along these lines, and and I said, well, 382 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 6: can you. 383 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 5: Tell me about it? And he said no, because I 384 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 5: haven't given up them yet. 385 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 6: So he's still holding on to hope that this is 386 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 6: the real thing that you can really find when is 387 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 6: the person most stressed, when they are most susceptible, whether 388 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 6: it's a trash talk or some other form of distraction. 389 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 6: And of course that's another uh you know, another pathway 390 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 6: by which trash talk can work and have negative performance 391 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 6: outcomes is distracting someone stealing their attention. Uh. But I 392 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 6: also had an interesting conversation with the the head of 393 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 6: the director of Performance for the English and Wales Cricket Bureau. 394 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 6: And you may not think about cricket as being a 395 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 6: sport that talks a lot of trash, but actually there's 396 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 6: a ton of trash talking cricket. 397 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 5: They call it sledging. 398 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 6: If you think about it, it makes sense because it 399 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 6: requires so much attention. You have so much incredible like 400 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 6: mental stamina and focus to play cricket because you're up 401 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 6: there for hours and you make one mistake and you're done. 402 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 6: And so I asked him something along those lines too, 403 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 6: because he's a big analytics guy, and his response was 404 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 6: interesting because what he said was basically like, it's not 405 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 6: necessarily when to attack, but also when not to. So 406 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 6: for example, in the seventh over of a cricket match, 407 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 6: there's there's data that shows it might not be the 408 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 6: sad and don't hold me to that I'm making it up, 409 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 6: but that that you know that that teams score less 410 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 6: than they do in every other over. So for whatever reason, 411 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 6: they're not as engaged, they're more distracted, they're tired. So 412 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 6: that's exactly when you do not want to talk trash, 413 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 6: because then you would run the risk of increasing their motivation, 414 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 6: of raising their arousal levels getting. 415 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 5: They're already down. You're right, yes, and they're already down. 416 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 6: So just as much as you want to figure out 417 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 6: when to attack, and and so the time too, for example, 418 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 6: would be if someone's really hyped up, if they're if 419 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 6: they've got a ton going on, they're at like a 420 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 6: high level of arousal and intensity, Like maybe you can 421 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 6: talk a little trash and push them over the edge, 422 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 6: because once you get above your peak performance data, there 423 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 6: is like a peak level of anxiety that everybody has. 424 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 6: There's like there's dramatic declines and performance. So I think 425 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 6: you're onto something. I mean, I think there's something there. 426 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 2: How long ago did you have this conversation with Shane Battier? 427 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: How long ago? 428 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 5: A couple of years? 429 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: Okay, Mikey, we got to get on this because Battie 430 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 2: A I'm telling you he's getting close. Okay, Like we 431 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 2: got to get on this before you got. 432 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 4: To get anuderground floor. 433 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 5: We have to do it and release it before Battier does. 434 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to tell you. All right, that's right. 435 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 6: It's a race now at this point, it's a race 436 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 6: to ridiculous Analytics. 437 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 5: Go ahead, mike Y. 438 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 4: I'm curious. 439 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: Ridiculous analytics ridiculous ridiculous for now until we have it 440 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: and then it's not ridiculous because we're the ones making 441 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: money off of it. 442 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 5: I'm just saying, that's a good name for a firm, 443 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 5: is ridiculous analytics. 444 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 4: You're right, I like that. 445 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm curious. 446 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 4: Just following up with that, I'm curious I'm sure in 447 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 4: all your conversations you found a lot of guys that 448 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 4: you're like, that was a great trash talker, that was 449 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 4: a great trash talker. But where there are a couple 450 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: of names that came up as that's the guy they 451 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 4: picked on, that's the guy everybody went after. 452 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a question that I asked. I asked almost 453 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 6: every athlete that I spoke to, and everyone was very 454 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 6: hesitant to talk about Uh, anyone. 455 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: To give away. 456 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 5: They're talking to give it up. 457 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, Raffi, it's so funny. You're talking like, it's so 458 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: funny we're discussing this. And I'll let you answer that 459 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 2: in a second. Because Christian Wilkins, the Dolphins great defensive tackle, 460 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: was on with us this week and he was like, oh, yeah, 461 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: like listen, if you're organized about it, I know the 462 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 2: guys that are weak. I know the guys that can't 463 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: handle it. I know their weaknesses. Like, these guys are 464 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: studying this before the game is crazy. 465 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 6: No question, no question. And you have a I mean 466 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 6: you have tape on it. I mean Steve Smith Senior, 467 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 6: before every game that he played, he would take he 468 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 6: would watch tape of every defensive back that he was 469 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 6: going to be going up against. And he wasn't just 470 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 6: watching to see like, well, what were the plays that, 471 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 6: you know, someone caught a ball, and then he watched 472 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 6: everything and he was looking for everything, every ticks, every 473 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 6: kind of any kind of like psychological giveaway. 474 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 5: You know. 475 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 6: He told me about one one game he was watching. 476 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 6: It was gonna he was with the Ravens. It was 477 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 6: his first game going up against Joe Hayden, and he 478 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 6: had never really played agains him, at least not when 479 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 6: they were in the same division. And he was watching 480 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 6: tape from a game the previous year when Hayden was 481 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 6: matched up against Brandon Marshall, and he noticed something, which 482 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 6: was Marshall caught a ball and when they stood up, 483 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 6: Hayden was trying to, you know, rip it away from him, 484 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 6: and for and and and for whatever reason, Brandon Marshall 485 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 6: just kind of like flinched at him, you know how 486 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 6: you can like flinch at someone, And Joe Hayden flinched back, like, 487 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 6: you know, like like he involuntary flinch like Matt Barnes 488 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 6: never did. When Kobe Bryant was throwing the ball in 489 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 6: his face right right, and Steve Smith said I'm latching 490 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 6: onto that. And he basically and his whole entire game 491 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 6: planned against him was designed to sit in, you know, 492 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 6: was designed to take advantage of that fact that he 493 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 6: believed that Joe Hayden would be non confrontational in that way, 494 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 6: and he and the entire game he actually instead of talking, 495 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 6: what he what he did was he was very physically 496 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 6: aggressive and then didn't say anything because Joe Hayden kept being. 497 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 5: Like, hey man, what's up. Why are you doing that? 498 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 5: Like we're cool or what? 499 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 6: And Steve Smith said nothing, It's the same kind of 500 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 6: mind game, but he knew it was just to you know, 501 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 6: a slightly different the line of attack. And then what 502 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 6: happened is on the final drive of the game, Ravens 503 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 6: are down going you know, or or they're down. It's 504 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 6: the tie game, and Joe Flacco asks asks Steve Smith 505 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 6: in the huddle, you know, what kind of route do you? 506 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 5: You know, what do you want to run? 507 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 6: And he's like a slug o And you know, a 508 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 6: slugo is basically like it's a slant that goes goes 509 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 6: into a go route. And so what he knew was 510 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 6: that because of everything that he'd done to Joe Hayden 511 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 6: that day when he ran the slugg and faked the slant, 512 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 6: Joe Hayden was going to bite on it because he 513 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 6: was going to give him space, and that's exactly what 514 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 6: he did. And then he went for the go, caught 515 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 6: like a thirty something yard yard catch and set up 516 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 6: Justin Tucker for the for the game winning field goal. 517 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 5: So it's like that stuff is absolutely study. There's no question. 518 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: Who's the guy that we'd be surprised at athlete we'd 519 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: be surprised was a great trash talker. 520 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 6: An athlete you'd be surprised was a great well. I mean, 521 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 6: Brian Scalabrini is pretty good. I don't know if that's 522 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 6: sal Yeah, talks a lot. But the thing is that 523 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 6: Scaley he knew not to take anything personally. He knew 524 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 6: he knew that like guys were gonna we're gonna talk 525 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 6: about him, and that is fine because if he. 526 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 5: Gets involved emotionally in the game. 527 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 6: This is a quote for him, He's like, I'm not 528 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 6: good enough, you know, to get distracted with that kind 529 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 6: of one on, you know, monoy monocrap, Like I need 530 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 6: to focus on my responsibilities. But he would say stuff like, 531 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 6: you know, this guy can't go left, he can't go left, 532 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 6: and knowing that it's basically he's presenting a challenge. You know, 533 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 6: he's going at the guy's ego. And guys have you know, 534 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 6: elite athletes have such a hard time letting go their ego. 535 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 6: Right if you're telling them they can't do the thing, 536 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 6: They're gonna do the thing, even if it's wrong for 537 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 6: the team, and it's outside of the game plan. To 538 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 6: go back to one of the what you're asking. Before 539 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 6: we started talking about the Steve Smith thing. The one 540 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 6: guy that which I think brings up an interesting point 541 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 6: about what might make someone vulnerable is Gilbert Arenez told 542 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 6: me that if he was in the league today, he 543 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 6: would go after Russell Westbrook. 544 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 5: And this was even a few years ago. And and the. 545 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 6: Reason is, and I don't think he's wrong. The reason 546 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 6: is is the way he put it is he becomes 547 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 6: like a Ferrari in traffic or a Lamborghinian traffic. You know, 548 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 6: he gets so revved up and so tunnel visioned that 549 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 6: like he's overcome with with all the all the the 550 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 6: the anxiety of performance that makes him a worse player, 551 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 6: and he's being baited by pride. And that's the thing 552 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 6: that I think, you know is really can really be detrimental. 553 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 6: It's the same thing that Scal would do by saying, 554 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 6: you can't go left and give him that, you know, 555 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 6: give it to him, give it to him. 556 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 5: I'll give it. 557 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 6: I'll give you that jump shot, right, Like, I mean, 558 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 6: that's that's great trash talk, right. 559 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 5: I love Scal. 560 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: Scal was kind of preparing for the trash talk. He 561 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: wasn't actually giving it out, but he was preparing that 562 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: guys were going to talk trash to him and just 563 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 2: laughed it off. 564 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 5: Probably you know, oh absolutely knew. Not that he knew 565 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 5: knew that it was a pure distraction. It should have 566 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 5: nothing to do with him. 567 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 6: But you know, so that was it last season that 568 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 6: Russell Westbrook got so upset when everybody was calling him 569 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 6: Russell Westbrook and you know, talking to him, right, Like 570 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 6: the fact that he brought that up tells you that 571 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 6: he's getting offended by something that he shouldn't be offended by. 572 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 6: It's not that you're just you're you're broadcasting the fact 573 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 6: that you're taking offense. Your pride is your weakness, like 574 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 6: if you're and he said that He's like, I'm a 575 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 6: prideful man, you know, like this is my name. You're 576 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 6: dishonoring my name. When you start talking about things like 577 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 6: respect and honor, then guys are going to be you know, 578 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 6: guys are vulnerable. That's when that's where you if it's 579 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 6: somewhere like Lebron James, same thing says like when things 580 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 6: get disrespectful, that's where I draw the line. It's like, man, 581 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,479 Speaker 6: that's exactly what the whole point of this is. 582 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 4: I feel like on the opposite end of that is 583 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 4: Kobe Bryant, who you start doing that and he would 584 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 4: do it just to show you, and he could and 585 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 4: it would happen over and over. 586 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. 587 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 6: Well, I mean someone like Kobe is someone you don't 588 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 6: want to talk to, right because exactly, you know, he 589 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 6: feeds off of it. And we say, we say feed 590 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 6: off of it and it's kind of like a you know, 591 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 6: it's a generic you know term, but but I'm talking 592 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 6: about the science like you literally you can use it 593 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 6: as a queue to you know, refocus your attention. You 594 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 6: can get yourself into the optimal zone of functioning, which 595 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 6: is like a sports psychology term that talks about like 596 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 6: being in a peak performance state. You know, Kobe, Kobe 597 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 6: wanted to humiliate, you know, Kobe wanted to He wanted 598 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 6: you to engage so that he could show you just 599 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 6: how much better than you than he was. He tried 600 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 6: to bait Shane Shane Battier, He tried to bait him 601 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 6: every time they played it would, you know, relentlessly right, 602 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 6: you know, one time he would, he would, he would 603 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 6: be nice to him and cordial and friendly before a game. 604 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 6: The next time he wouldn't. He wouldn't say anything. He 605 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 6: cold his ice. You know, he would step over him 606 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 6: and or you know, hover over him for an extra 607 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 6: half a beat when he fell on the floor, bump 608 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 6: his shoulder into him. He was trying to bait him 609 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 6: into a confrontation. But a guy like Kobe, yeah you 610 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 6: but justin again just as much you got to know 611 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 6: who to go after. 612 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 5: You got to know who to who to leave alone? 613 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: See I like that list too, Do you leave alone 614 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: like it's not even worth it? Like Jordan's got to 615 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: be on that list. Kobe's got to be on that. 616 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 3: Mames Mahomes, Yeah than Mahomes kolbe anyone who's gonna anyone 617 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 3: who's who like who's going to engage Draymond Green, Kevin Garnett, 618 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 3: Gary Peyton. 619 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 6: I mean, all these guys, these guys who feed off 620 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 6: of it, like you're giving them what they want. But 621 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 6: you know John Stockton who never said a word to 622 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 6: Gary Payton. You know Gary Payton, you know, to this 623 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 6: day will admit that John Stockton got in his head 624 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 6: because he never said anything, and he started thinking about it. 625 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 6: He's like, why won't this guy talk to me? And 626 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 6: suddenly right then he's thinking about something that has nothing 627 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 6: to do with the game instead of his opponent doing it. 628 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: Raffy before we let you go it again. Trash talk 629 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: is available right now wherever you buy your books. Support 630 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: this man. It's a good book. It's an interesting topic. 631 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: Give me the mount rushmore of trash talkers. 632 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 5: Okay, all right, so. 633 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 6: I said before that, you're right, Muhammad Ali has got 634 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 6: to be on the list. He's the He's the godfather 635 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 6: of modern trash talk, both in terms of sort of 636 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 6: like bringing it to a national and global audience, but 637 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 6: also because the fact that you know, he used trash 638 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 6: talk and basically every possible in every possible way, you know, 639 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 6: and you know, to every possible you know, he demonstrated 640 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 6: all the functionalities of trash talk, right for like self 641 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 6: promotion and hype and selling a fight to get in 642 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 6: the guy's head to trying to create motivation for himself. 643 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 6: But and even behind the scenes as a kind of 644 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 6: like pro social you know, you know, you're just giving 645 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 6: giving each other, right, They're like, that's what, that's a 646 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 6: pro social use of trash talk to create you know, 647 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 6: bonds of intimacy and sort of in group cohesion. 648 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: Uh. 649 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 5: So he did all of that. 650 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 6: I'm gonna put I'm gonna put Gary Payton on the 651 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 6: list as well. Uh you know, I don't think you 652 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 6: can have a Mount Rushmore and not have not that GP. 653 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 6: There's no way, you know. So so I'm gonna put 654 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 6: him on the list. Grudgingly. 655 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 5: I'm going to include Reggie Miller. 656 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: Uh why you're a Knicks fan. 657 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm a Knicks fan. He was great at it. 658 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 5: He was great at it, He thrived on it, great, 659 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 5: he was great. 660 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 6: He was I mean, and and he's sort of like 661 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 6: he's more of like the pest instead of the intent, 662 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 6: you know, a different kind of different kind of not the. 663 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 5: Intimidator, but the past. 664 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 6: You could put Sean Avery, you know, in that slot 665 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 6: someone like that, But Reggie Miller was I mean, just 666 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 6: look at the fact that you know that that Michael 667 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 6: Jordan tried to gouch his eyes out, the fact that 668 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 6: Reggie was able to get under MJ's skin and nobody 669 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 6: could do that, and MJ, for whatever reason, was not 670 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 6: able to use you know, Reggie's trash talk and the 671 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 6: way he was others. You got to give him some 672 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 6: credit for that. But yeah, I mean, at the same time, 673 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 6: f Reggie and then and then last spot, I want 674 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 6: to I want to give it to someone who maybe 675 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 6: folks don't know as well, and that is a former 676 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 6: US soccer goalkeeper named Chep Messing. 677 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: So he oh, I know him well. I love Chep Messing, 678 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 2: New york eras come. 679 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 5: On, okay, thank you. 680 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 6: Shep is a guy that not a lot of people know. 681 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 6: But so the reason that the US Olympic men's team 682 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 6: made its first ever Olympics and the qualifying era is 683 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 6: because of trash talk, and it's because of Sheep Messing. 684 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 6: It's because in the nineteen seventy two qualifiers, during the 685 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 6: during the shootout to go, you know, to advance in 686 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 6: the qualifying round, stet Messin takes off his shirt, swings 687 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 6: it around his head like a maniac, and goes out 688 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 6: screaming at the guy who's gonna about to take the 689 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 6: kit about to take the kick. This guy named a 690 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 6: Mario Costro, and he so freaked him out that the 691 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 6: guy missed the missed the shot entirely. But that's just 692 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 6: the beginning for shit. Shep, who also studied psychology as 693 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 6: an undergrad. He would he would look up you know, 694 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 6: like individual cultural sensitivities against you know, the different team, 695 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 6: you know, the different players he'd be going against, especially 696 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 6: when he played, you know with guys like Pele and 697 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 6: you know, in the locker room with the Cosmos. He 698 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 6: would just find out like what, like what will a German? 699 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 6: We'll upset a German? Will upset an Italian guy and 700 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 6: just go directly at that. But he also he would 701 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 6: just do the wildest stuff to two other quick things. 702 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 5: What is so in quarter kicks? 703 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 6: He would like walk around sort of like with a 704 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 6: day's look on his face, mumbling to himself, and then 705 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 6: he'd grab a guy and say where am I? Like 706 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 6: like I He's like, I haven't gotten any sleep? What's 707 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 6: going on here? And he wanted people to think he 708 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 6: was a lunatic, like actually a lunatic, because then they'd 709 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 6: stay a little bit away from him, they'd be a 710 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 6: little bit afraid of him when they're going in for that, 711 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 6: you know, for that crosser to get you know, to 712 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 6: put a head on it. 713 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: Uh. 714 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 6: But the most devious, the most devious ploy that I've 715 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 6: heard of comes from chet Messing, which is he would 716 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 6: go up to guys coming out of halftime, guys he knew, 717 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 6: and he would do or he would do research into it, 718 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 6: like where they lived, and he would say something to 719 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 6: the effect of, oh, man, I hope you didn't hear 720 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 6: there's a gunman in your neighborhood. 721 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 5: I know it's a little man. 722 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, because he's not making them mad, he's just 723 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 6: making them worried, right, and so they're thinking, they're thinking 724 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 6: about something else. I mean, I mean, that's an exact 725 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 6: quote from Chef that he used in the in the 726 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 6: playoffs in nineteen seventy seven when he was playing with 727 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 6: the we're still playing in the NASL. So Shep belongs 728 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 6: on that list too for as an innovator. 729 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: All right, mike Ya get Chep on the podcast okay, 730 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 2: because I want to talk to him about trash Talking. 731 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: I've already reached out to Shane Battier. I want to 732 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: have him in a couple of weeks with Rothy so 733 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: we can create this business. See where Battier's at with it, okay, 734 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 2: and we can create this business together. But in the meantime, 735 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: before we do all of that, okay, buy his book. 736 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 2: Trash Talk is available right now wherever books are sold. 737 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: I love that you're having a book signing with people 738 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,919 Speaker 2: who are going to heckle you. That is a great 739 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: idea by you. Good luck with a book man. This 740 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: was great, fascinating man. We appreciate it. 741 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 5: Thank you, guys. I appreciate it as well. All right, 742 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 5: and you're right, Reggie Miller