WEBVTT - #049 Jason Flom with Leroy Harris 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.080 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.200 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.040 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.800 they're breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.360 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.479 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.559 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.640 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:48.920 happen to somebody and that's the first thing. 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.600 We said, that could never happen to me, but they can. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:17.080 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.800 guest is an extraordinary person who has been through something 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.000 that nobody should ever go through. Leroy Harris, Welcome to 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:26.440 the show. 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:27.880 Thank you very much. 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.679 There's so many crazy aspects of your case, but I 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.039 think we should probably start at the beginning. First of all, 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:34.959 where did you grow up? 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:37.400 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.839 And how was that. Did you have a nice family situation? 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:42.479 I mean, was it a tough childhood? 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:42.920 Well? 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.600 No, we had a close knit family. I mean we 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:51.400 was very supportive of each other and brothers, sisters, Yeah, brothers. 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:57.880 My mother she was a single parent. She raised fourteen children. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.560 Huh yeah, my mother had seven sons and seven daughters. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.000 Wow, that's amazing. 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.760 And you know my father he well at the time 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.560 he worked as a truck driver, so he was in 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.880 and out. But you know, he was supportive of the 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.720 family too, but he just a lot of times he 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:22.320 just couldn't really provide as much as he wanted to 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.200 because the family was so big. 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:26.360 How big was your apartment that you lived in? 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:27.480 We lived in the house. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.320 You know, we went from eastern New York to Flatbush 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.760 and at that time in Flatbush, you know, was a 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:38.440 lot of different families, different nationalities coming in and so 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.280 it was pretty integrated. It was a good community that 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.440 I lived in. And you know, so the family just 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.680 growing up, it was it was it was a good 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:48.520 wholesome family. 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.799 Were you the oldest, youngest, Well, I. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:52.480 Was one of the middles. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.519 Before this criminal justice nightmare hit you like a ton 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:58.560 of bricks. Did you have when you were twenty two 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.080 years older? Yes, I was before that. Did you have 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:02.919 any interaction with the justices? 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:07.880 No, I didn't really have no encounters with the police. 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.280 You know, I wasn't a bad kid if you consider 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.519 you know, a little bit of every now and then, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.680 you know, growing up, a little beer or something, you know, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.880 as a kid, you know, growing up younger twenty one, 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.160 twenty two, I took a drink here. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:24.200 Nil or you know. 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:26.240 Okay, so you were a regular kid. 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.000 Yeah, that's it. That's it. I was a regular kid. 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.680 I mean, nothing other than that little beer here and there. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:31.640 That was it. You know. 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.640 So this part of the story starts in nineteen eighty three, Yeah, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.640 just a long time ago. I mean, that's like I'm 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.560 trying to think back of I mean, like when I 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:45.840 watched the movie of My life backwards. If I think 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.120 about the last thirty five years and thinking about you 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:56.480 spending it incarcerated, it really is. That's just it's an 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.920 enormous amount of time, and none of it ever made 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.400 any sense. You originally picked up on a. 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.840 Warrant nineteen eighty four, and I knew nothing about it. 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.560 And this was in Connecticut in Connecticut in new Haven, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.280 so they pick you up on a warrant. Now most 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.480 people are probably saying, okay, so what was the warrant for? 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:15.760 And you didn't know. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.000 Well, like I said, I'm from Brooklyn. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.920 My mother she lived in New Haven at this time, 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.800 so I'm out of town. They picked me up and 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.719 locked me up, and that's all I know. At that point, 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.599 I'm waiting to see a judge, you know, get the court. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.040 I'm locked up four months. I finally come to court 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:37.400 September eighteenth, eighty four, and I'm asking him, where's the lawyer? 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:39.280 Can you call my lawyer down? 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.760 So you have not at this point ever even met 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:43.679 your lawyer yet. 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:44.919 Nobody, So you don't have a lawyer. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.000 I don't have any but I know I'm coming to court, 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.839 so they have to have the Public Defender's office have 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.400 somebody come down to see me before I go up 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.440 to see the judge. So I'm asking where's the lawyer 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:57.440 because I know you have to get a lawyer. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:58.320 I don't have no money. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.440 But the logical thing mind is going to say, but 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.640 wait a minute, you must have seen a lawyer while 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.840 you were in jail. Everyone's entitled to a lawyer. It 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:07.800 says that in the constitution, how were they You were 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:09.320 in jail for four months and you didn't even know 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:10.719 what was going on and you didn't see a lawyer. 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.880 Well, they you know, sometimes people do what they want 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.120 to do. I mean, just because a person is a 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:22.280 prosecutor or a person is a police officer, it doesn't 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.040 mean that they are following the letter of the law. 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.920 So we need to make that clear because if they 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:30.560 were following the letter of the law, I would have 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.640 seen a lawyer day one when they arrested me. 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.119 And then most likely none of this ever would have happened, 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.680 because you would have been able to prove that whatever 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:40.120 it was that they were charging you with, they had 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.440 the wrong guy. Right now, you can't see him, but 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.480 Leroy is a very dapper dresser. He's all decked out today. 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.520 And that's actually an important point because it plays a 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:51.520 role in the next part of the story. Right, so 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.680 you show up in court dressed to kill, yes, no 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.960 pun intended. And what happens next. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:02.800 Well, they called me the court that day. I get 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.840 to the courthouse, I'm down in the lock up. I'm 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.680 asking the sheriff, where's the lawyer? Can I see a lawyer. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.560 Who's my lawyer? He goes upstairs to the Public Defender's office. 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.440 We got Leroy Harris downstairs. He's asking who is his lawyer? 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.880 This dad and he comes back down maybe twenty five 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.840 minutes later and says, I don't know. Then the doorbell 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.080 to the lock up gets the buzz that someone comes in. 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:36.159 He says, mister Harris. He says, they're here for you. Now, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.279 I said they're here for me. Now, what do you mean? 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.839 He says, there's a cop officer Lemon. He wants to 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.240 speak to you. The officer said, asking. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:51.480 Me, are you Leroy Harris. I says yes, I am. 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.640 He says it is your date of birth ten twenty 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.040 five sixty. I says yes it is, and he says, 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:04.839 well turned around Yon Durest. I said for what he said, 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:11.680 for robbery and sexual assault. He says this happened May 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.920 twenty first, nineteen eighty three. Now this is another warrant. 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:22.800 So they take me from de Locaup to one Union Avenue, 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:27.520 which is the police headquarters, process me and put me 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.560 in the van, bring me back to another court for 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.760 arrangement for this new warrant. So when I get to 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:39.320 the court. I'm sitting there waiting to be arranged, and 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:44.800 pandemonium erupted in the courthouse, and one of the sheriffs 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.680 ran over and said, hey, come on, get out of here. 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.080 And I didn't ask any questions. I got up and 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:52.800 I walked out. 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.120 So wait, when you say pandemonia erupted, what do you mean? 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.720 It was a lot of excitement in the courthouse. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.280 People were yelling over here, so he was just trying 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.320 to clear everything out. And he told me, hey, get up. 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.560 And because the way I looked, he didn't think that 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:10.560 I was a prisoner. 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:12.080 Did he think you were a lawyer? 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.200 I guess he did, because that was inside the transcripts. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:15.920 He said, well, he did. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.800 The clothes he was wearing, the suit, the way he looked, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.520 look at the pictures, no one knew you know, that 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:23.560 was Leroy. 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.440 I mean, you do look more like a lawyer or 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.320 a college professor than somebody who's been in prison. Even now. 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.120 I mean, and this is something that's just totally surreal. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.400 Like here you are with two warrants, one of you 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.320 still don't know what it is, the other one you 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.880 don't know what the hell they're talking about, right, you know, 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.040 what it is, but it doesn't make any sense to you. 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.040 You walk out of the courtroom into the fresh air. Yes, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:46.480 because they told you to. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.680 They told me, go ahead, get out of here. 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.080 Which sounds like it all sounds so crazy, right, So 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:53.360 you walk out and then what happens. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.040 Well, I walked out, and I got on the train 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.920 and I went home to Brooklyn and I was then 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.560 Brooklyn for maybe a year and a half before I 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.760 was picked up and brought back to New Haven and 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.880 they charged me with escape from custody. Now I got 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.280 an escape from custody and I got three cases. I 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.560 don't really didn't really have nothing from the beginning. I 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.320 didn't know what was going on. And they take me 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:28.800 to trial in eighty six, November twenty, nineteen eighty six, 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.559 they take me to trial for escape. 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.280 And by the way, this is the most elegant escape 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.320 I've ever heard of. Right, they actually told you to 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.800 walk out, So this is the most peaceful escape in 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.720 the history of escapes. Just like, off you go, like, 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:45.760 take a walk, see you later, get on the trade, 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.040 go home, Thank you very much. Okay, So now they're 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.680 charging you with escape. The previous warrant. They still didn't 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:52.320 tell you what it is. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.600 I later found out there was lossity in the second. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.719 Degree, okay, larcening in the second degree, okay, so another thing. 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.000 So they brought you to trial out and they charge 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.960 you with all three crimes. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.040 Just escape. That's later. 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.040 We talked about eighty six right now. So they charged 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:13.600 me with escape. So now they convict me. Now you 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.800 had a lawyer, right well, yeah, I had a lawyer, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.719 but it wasn't Sometimes you say bootleg, and I think 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.760 that's what this was. This was the bootleg of fleet Market, 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.480 you know, the fleet Market lawyer. He wasn't in my 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.440 best interest at all. What was going on. I guess, 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.880 like I said, if the system want to take you 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:38.240 out of society for whatever reason, they will do it 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.120 no matter what laws they have to break, saying that 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.920 they are enforcing the laws, but they're breaking the laws. 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.440 Because it would seem like a relatively simple argument for 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.480 a lawyer to make to say, well, the sheriff told 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.480 my client to leave and he left, doesn't seem to 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.520 meet the definition of escape, but that he didn't even 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:57.800 bother him out that argument. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.400 They charged me with escape from custody. And this is 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.200 the part where I did escape. 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:05.840 Right, because there's a real escape. 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.240 Yeah, this is the escape. This is now, this is 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.080 the escape. Once they did that. Once they did that 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.360 from walking out and they told me to walk out 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.760 that day November twentieth, nineteen eighty six, the prosecutor said 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.640 to me, now you're convicted. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.319 What I'm gonna do. I'm gonna have. 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:33.080 You charged as a serious persistent felon the offender. I 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.280 had no cases, I had no charges, I had no 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.640 felon needs except the escape that you just. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:38.959 Convicted me on. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.239 He says, I'm gonna charge you as a serious persistent 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:48.280 felon the offender. And you're going downstairs in the lock up. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.439 And this was before one o'clock that day I was convicted, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.760 and at two o'clock you're coming back upstairs and we're 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.000 gonna pick another jury. And all that jury has to 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:07.200 do just say that you're guilty as a persistent fella 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:07.880 in the offender. 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.079 And the sheriff right here that within the. 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:15.439 Courtroom during the trial, he's a witness, and the sinographer 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.880 that's sitting right there, she's a witness that you just 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.120 was convicted and you got another felony. 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.240 They're gonna testify to that and. 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.360 If the jury sees that, they can double up and 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.040 give you instead of ten years for walking out for 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.200 the escape, twenty that's when I escaped. 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.160 And then how did you escape this time? Because it's 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.920 really amazing because I'm sitting here thinking, well, if they're 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.320 going to charge me with an escape, and I'm going 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.079 to show him what escape looks and ask. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:54.520 What I did. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.480 And that day, when I went downstairs, I left how 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:02.840 I went through. I went. 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.000 I just went through the control room. 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.840 I opened up the door, I walked out the fence, 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.640 I walked up the driveway. I walked onto the New 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:20.520 Haven Green and I sat there for a minute. Took 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.719 off my suit and I had my shorts onto that 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.040 because I was on trial, so I had I was stap. 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.559 I had a dress suit on and I had gym 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.080 shorts underneath that. So I just took that off, took 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:33.920 my shoe over, left it through it in the garbage, 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.559 and I just walked down to Elm Street and I 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.920 seen somebody with a car and they gave me a 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.320 ride to the train station and I got on the 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:48.160 train and I went back to Brooklyn. And when I 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:52.800 got back in Brooklyn, I was again charged with escape 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:59.359 from custody until I was picked up on March fifteenth, 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:00.720 nine teen eighty eight. 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:02.360 Now, and that's just where this comes in at. 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:08.000 So March fifteenth, nineteen eighty eight. Now, wow, and here 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.679 we are in twenty eighteen. It's not hard to do 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.360 the math on that one. And then you never saw 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.280 daylight again from that point until twenty seventeen. 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:23.560 Until right until November twenty first, two thy seventeen. That 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.080 was when I seen freedom as I known it to be. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:34.200 So it's so recent too. It's really just started processing 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:39.600 this right now. You eventually ended up getting picked up 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.360 this now third time, charged with an escape that was 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.480 an actual escape. And it's interesting listening to you talk 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.240 about it because you make it sound like it was 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.440 so easy, but it couldn't have been that easy. I mean, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:51.800 they make it serious. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.280 I was just furious, become furious. I mean what they did, 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.760 what they did, I was just so furious. I just left. 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.680 Yeah, you left, but I mean again, like it doesn't 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.280 people can't just leave me. No, you had to put 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.840 some I don't know how you did it. It's still 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:08.760 sort of missing me. I'm trying to picture the different 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.560 doors and walls and things. But you got out, so 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:16.200 now here it is nineteen eighty eight, you're back in custody, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.400 and this time they're going to try you for this 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:23.120 sexual assault and robbery that you know nothing about. And 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.840 now you have another public defender. And was this guy 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:28.080 any better than the other guy? 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.080 No, this wasn't him. This was her, Patricia buck Wolf. 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.000 She was an advocate for battered women, for women of 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.840 sexual assass for sheltered women, and women in crisis and 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.960 everything else. So I didn't have no defense at all. 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.440 I just sat there during the whole trial, and the 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.920 state put on their case. It was my five hundred 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.480 and twenty pages in the transcript and nothing with me. 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.080 So she was from the picture that you're painting. It 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.240 sounded like she didn't have a lot of interest in 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.920 that because she was looking at it like if they're 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.320 charging you, you must be guilty, and she's wants to 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.560 take the side of the woman. And it was a 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.880 terrible case. Yeah, nobody would you know whatever, want this 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.880 to happen to anybody. But that doesn't mean that you 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:19.760 don't deserve a fair trial, and it doesn't mean that 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.640 we should convict the wrong guy, which is exactly what 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.920 happened is what happens too frequently in this country, and people, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.440 I think would expect that there would be a system 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.320 of justice that wouldn't totally break down in the way 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.840 that it did in your case over and over again. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.120 It's not like there was one time, and I mean like, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.320 you had multiple opportunities for the justice system to work 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.240 in your favor, as just a regular law abiding citizen 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.960 deserves and would expect, and every single time it almost 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.640 got worse. I mean here, they basically sounds like and 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.800 I don't know whether they did it on purpose, but 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.920 they probably stuck you with a lawyer that was the 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.880 least likely one to want to really mount an aggressive 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.560 defense for you in this case. How long did the 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:02.080 child take? 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:06.000 When the trial went from the fourth to the tenth, 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.359 the eleventh. The next day they sit in to me 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.760 nine o'clock in the morning. But I didn't find out 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:20.760 about Patricia buck Wolf until two thousand and eight. It 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.560 was a prejudice did because of the case and what 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.320 she represented, and I didn't know that. I found that 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.880 out years later, most twenty years later. Yeah, I found 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:30.320 that out. 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.440 And you know what's ironic about that, Leroy, is that 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:38.080 you can't escape the fact that in doing what she did, 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.399 which was not defending you and not getting to the truth, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:47.760 what she actually did is allowed the actual perpetrator to 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.960 remain free to abuse more women. She broke the law, well, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.280 she broke the law. But also if her goal which 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.720 we can agree with, which is to help battered women 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.280 and to be an advocate for women who are in 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:03.200 suffering and abused, if that was her goal, she actually 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.480 accomplished the opposite thing, because not only did she do 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:11.040 a grave injustice to you, but also any other woman 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:15.840 that the actual perpetrator went and abused. Those women would 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.600 never have been victimized if the system would have worked, 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.280 and if she and the other people would have done 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.639 their job, and they would have actually figured out that 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.880 you were innocent and gone and found the guy who's 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:26.879 a bad guy and should be off the streets and 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.720 should be in prison. So she actually did a terrible 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:35.480 disservice to women by using this twisted logic that she 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:40.480 had in just disregarding your guilt or innocence and throwing 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.719 you to the well, throwing you to the wolves, right, 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.439 her name was wolves. She threw you to the wolves. 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:50.240 You end up getting sentenced to eighty years eighty years 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:55.199 in prison. I mean, how did you even manage to 0:18:55.280 --> 0:19:00.600 deal with that? You've already been wrongfully arrested multiple times, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.600 charged wrongly multiple times, in and out of prison escapes, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.920 You've already had like a nightmarish journey, and now comes 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.280 the ultimate, which is an eighty year sentence. I mean, 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.679 you had at this point, you had a wife and 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.639 a child and a life that you were supposed to 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.240 be living absolutely and you're being pulled away from all 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.919 of that and basically sentenced to die in prison. You 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:25.240 weren't going to live another eighty years. 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.440 No, I wasn't, but I knew that I had to 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:35.480 fight this. April eleventh, nineteen eighty nine, they gave me 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:40.200 eighty a sentence, and I said, from that day. 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:43.000 I gotta fight him. 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:45.600 And let's go back for a second, le Roy and 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.600 talk about this case, because this was a terrible crime. Right. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.159 There were three guys who stole the car and some 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.879 money from somebody, and then there were two young ladies 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.280 in the car who ended up and a terrible twist 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.080 of faith, they ended up making a wrong turn, getting 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.960 stuck on a dead end and then running basically into 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.000 a more or less a roadblock that these guys who 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.560 had just stolen this other car were able to sort 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.639 of box them in, and so they were sexually assaulted 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.399 and robbed. They knew they had three perpetrators, right, and 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.240 they had two of them. They had caught two of them, 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:23.000 Is that right? 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.960 No, they had a whole lot of suspects. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:32.840 James Pooky, Round Trees, Smith, Shepherd, Blingold. They had a 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:38.040 whole lot of people that they thought that was a 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:43.280 potential suspect that never came out because they wanted, I guess, 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.960 to punish me, and so I was punished for that. 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.879 And today, as I said before you, I have proven 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:55.520 that November twenty first, even prior to that, that it 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.960 wasn't me and everything that they knew, all of them years, 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.040 it was because of a prosecutor named James Clark. 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:03.480 He was being vindictive. 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.760 He was mad because I left the first time, and 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:09.880 then after they try to get double up and give 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.800 me twenty years for walking out the door. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:15.280 He was mad about that. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.280 That's when I escaped and they gave me to ten 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:22.480 years in absentia. When they brought me back in custy, 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:27.040 I was sentenced to ten years so he did that 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.720 while I was on the run, and so it. 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:32.360 Was just being vengeful. 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.359 He just wanted to hurt me, just to hurt me, 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.199 you know, because I left, and showing me that he 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:39.119 got the power. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.120 I got the power, so I'm gonna take it life, 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:42.160 I don't care. I'm to take it. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.480 And that's what he did, even though he knew and 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.960 all the evidence at the time from day one showed 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:51.879 that I had nothing to do with it, that I 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.520 wasn't there, you know, I wasn't even supposed to have been 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.880