WEBVTT - CLASSIC: Plastics, Microplastics and Conspiracy 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.600 Fellow conspiracy realist, how much of you is plastic? 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:09.640 I think a credit card size amount per day day 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.480 and your brain crosses the brain blood barrier. 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.960 Your body overall. Yes, especially if you are a person 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:23.480 carrying a child inside of you, now that they probably 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.320 are going to get a dose of plastics too. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.400 Basically lego at this point, guys. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:32.080 Yeah, Look, if you're not driving currently or operating heavy machinery, 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.640 take a pause and look around your environment and ask 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:41.280 yourself how many objects in your immediate vicinity contain plastic? Spoiler, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:42.320 it's a lot. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.760 It's so damn convenient, even if you are driving. About 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:47.040 how much of a. 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.400 Car is plastic nowadays versus I don't know what fifty 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:51.880 years ago. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:57.080 Coding on the gear shifts, the dash panel, all the rubber. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.320 I mean, I guess that's different than plastic, But it's plastic. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.880 You can go to some of the most inaccessible parts 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.840 of the Earth and you might reach a place where 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.200 humans have never been in recorded history. But you know 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:11.559 it, it probably beat you to the punch. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.800 Plastic. Yeah, it really insists upon itself, as you would say, Ben, 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.720 and it likes to spread its plastic seed. 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:24.160 And now historically manufacturers ever since the dawn of plastic 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.600 can bake light and so on. They have claimed plastic 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.880 pollution can be solved by recycling. But as we learned 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.640 in twenty twenty, there's more than a little bit of 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.520 stuff they don't want you to know on that one. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:41.280 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:45.679 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.720 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.520 production of iHeartRadio. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:02.440 Hello, and welcome back to the show. 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.520 My name is Noah, our rider, die compatriot and colleague. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.480 Our better third Matt Frederick is on adventures somewhat off 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.600 the grid, but we'll be returning soon, so say hello 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.080 if you see him in the wild. They call me Ben. 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.000 We are joined today with our super producer Alexis code 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:26.000 name Doc Holliday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you, You 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.680 are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:35.240 you to know. Before we begin today's episode, take a second, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.480 if you're in a safe place and not driving, and 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.359 look around just your immediate area. Don't think outside of 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.239 your room. Don't just the stuff you can see or 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.480 the stuff you can touch. Try counting how many things 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.320 you can identify as being made of plastic. Just take 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:53.560 a second and think about it. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.239 Yeah, man, just on my desk right here, I've got 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:02.160 this tiny little plastic ummy bear that my kid uses 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.079 to make necklaces. So there's one a McDonald's cup. I've 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.840 got a bunch of little trinkets, you know. I got 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.480 a little plastic squirrel with a beanie. Like this guy 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:17.520 is the camera focusing on this cute little I'm really 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.200 bad at centering on this because it's off to the side. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:20.520 Uh. 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.600 Got a bunch of like a bottle of hand sanitizer cords, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.720 you know, Like I've got an ethernet cord that's wrapped 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.720 in rubber with plastic ends on it at the very least. Yeah, man, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.560 a lot so this camera that we're recording into these 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.600 little cameras. 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.360 I live with a life sized plastic skeleton because that's 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:44.680 where I'm at, and. 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.640 Life don't spoil. I wanted to believe that Agent Scully 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:50.200 was in fact a real skeleton. 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:55.000 I think it is a huge injustice for us to 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.720 say that the nature of her physical material decides whether 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.240 or not she's real. But I'm very you know, just 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.080 like a pro pro b what you want kind of person. 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.280 But you're right, you know, and a lot of our 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.640 fellow listeners just did the same thing. You see the 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.920 objects on nearby counters, shelves, tables, right, and also think 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.000 about the furniture, Think about the device you're using to 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.920 play this episode. Think about the clothing you're wearing. Right, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.920 what percentage of that is a synthetic polymer? The short 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.240 answer is they're probably For many of us in the 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.960 audience today, there are more plastic things around you than 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:39.240 you can easily count. Plastic is ubiquitous, Plastic is everywhere. 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.560 So today's question, how did it get here? When did 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.599 we know about it? And what does this mean for 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.520 the future. To answer this, we do have to start 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.720 at what maybe kind of a boring place, but it's 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.159 important for the rest of the episode. So here are 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.560 the facts. Plastic. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:06.120 A brief history of plastic. Yeah, technically, plastic is a 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.440 it's like a catch all term sort of. It's a 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.599 word or for a group of things, for any material 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:17.440 that can be shaped, molded, or manipulated into any form. 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.279 Some of these things occur naturally. These substances occur naturally, 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.520 but most are man made. And today the word plastic 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:29.040 is really used to refer to a category of materials 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.640 that we collectively call polymers. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:37.160 And plastics. First, shout out to everybody who's already remembering 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.920 that scene in the Graduate. It's great scene. Plastics were 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.159 often for times seen in the future. The science is fascinating. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.160 A lot of children don't know this growing up in school, 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.360 But plastics are made from oil, right, the same kind 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.080 of oil that is, roughly speaking, the same kind of 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.640 oil that's used to make gas. Oil is car been rich. 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.880 That's what makes it such a popular fat these days. 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:09.039 And plastics are these large carbon containing compounds, if you know, 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:10.960 like you pointed out in all we're referring to them 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.400 in the modern sense. These polymers, these large molecules. They're 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.159 composed of these repeating units of shorter and shorter carbon 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:24.400 containing compounds called monomers. Chemists combine these different types of 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:30.680 monomers to make a vast a monopoly of plastics that 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.760 all have different chemical chemical properties, like how in the 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.799 Justice League or in the X Men or Avengers people 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.560 have different superpowers. Most of this stuff is inert and 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.839 the big, the big win for humanity is that it 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.880 often won't react chemically to other substances you can put 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:50.480 soap and plastic, right. 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:52.840 But it makes me think of that scene in Breaking 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.200 Bad where you know, they want to dissolve some bodies 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:02.120 right in acid, and the material that Walter White asks 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.320 Jesse to go get is are these plastic bins, which 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.800 seems like, you know, acid would melt right through polymer 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.160 bins instead. Jesse thinks this is absurd, so he does 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.800 it in the bathtub and the acid dissolves right through 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:22.960 the floor, showering you know, goo and dissolved body parts 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.240 all over the living room. But right, isn't that right? 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:29.240 Ben Like, there's something about the chemical makeup, the inertness 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:34.000 of plastic that even something as caustic as acid won't react. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.120 With it, right, Yeah, And it depends on it depends 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:38.880 on the plastic, right exactly. 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:39.160 Yes. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.840 And I think that's a big plot point in Breaking Bad, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.680 which I just rewatched a lot of it, but in 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.160 a very lazy way. I just rewatched my favorite scenes, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.040 So I think it holds up. So how do we 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.920 get here? How do we get how did our lives 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:57.360 become inundated with this stuff? The story of plastic dates 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.560 back to the eighteen hundreds. In eighteen thsfty six, a 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.760 guy named Alexander Parks created something called park Scene. This 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:09.120 is generally considered the first thermoplastic. A guy named John 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:14.800 Wesley Hyatt in eighteen sixty nine saw an offer by 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.040 a business in New York to give away ten thousand 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.200 dollars to anyone who could make a substitute for ivory, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:27.800 you know, ivory elephant tusk, and this inspired John Wesley 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:33.040 Hyatt to invent what we call celluloid today. The whole 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.960 reason there was an ivory shortage, by the way, was 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.120 because billiards was growing massively popular. It was the pog 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.600 or the Pokemon of its time, right, So this guy 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.680 invents this guy invents celluloid, and people were like, whoa, 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.200 this is amazing. But it didn't stop there. That's not 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:51.920 even the real revolution yet. 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.640 Yeah, and celluloid, which is a ton twister and of itself, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.360 is also still what people think of when they think 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:03.200 about film from cinema. It's printed on celluloid. It's sort 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.080 of I think that's probably not exactly accurate anymore, but 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.480 it's certainly what the original material was that was used 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:15.800 to project film. Then, in nineteen o seven, a guy 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.920 by the name of Leo Bakeland invented what he very 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.400 self aggrandizingly referred to as Bakelite, which was the first 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.640 fully synthetic plastic, So that meant that it had no 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:31.040 molecules that were found in nature. It was pure laboratory magic. 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:36.079 You're right, Noel Bakeland definitely definitely had his eye on 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:42.800 some marketing there. These two major publicly known successes got 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.280 the attention of the big players in the chemical industry, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.760 so they just started throwing money into the potential of plastic, 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.280 the R and D the development. As a matter of fact, 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.120 there was a time when they just started seeing They 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.560 decided that they would just discover and invent new types 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.240 of plast and then later they would figure out what 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.280 that stuff was good for. They just wanted to be 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.000 kind of the first past the post in the invention game. 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.440 And then World War let's fast forward. World War two 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.920 sparks this massive, unprecedented expansion of the plastic industry. Think 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.320 about it. Natural resources are at a premium. We want 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:27.480 a safe, viable, affordable alternative, and that's why production of 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.880 plastic increased by three hundred percent in the US. And 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.719 this pattern continued in one way or another at the 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:39.079 end of the war. For a time, people thought plastic 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.959 would save the world. Plastic was a miracle substance that 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.600 may one day prove as historically important as the so 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.400 called Philosopher's Stone of alchemy. Except plastic was real, or 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.800 at the very least sliced bread. You know, but sliced bread. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:10:59.280 It's got this cool. 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.000 Thing about it where you know, you eat it and 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:02.760 then it's gone and you don't have to worry about 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.000 it hanging around for generations. But it turns out as 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.600 far back as the sixties, folks in the US already 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.880 were realizing that plastics, while they were durable and lightweight 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:17.440 and able to be molded into any number of amazing shapes, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.160 stuck around for a long long time, and they're already 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.760 kind of started to be this I don't know if 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.760 distrust is the right word, but a certain awareness and 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:32.400 trepidation around, like, should we really throw our whole lot 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.160 in with this material when we're already seeing that studies 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.280 are showing that it causes problems with the environment. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:43.400 Yeah, the apprehension was growing. In nineteen sixty one, study 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.959 found that five percent of birds had plastic on some 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:52.040 sort in their stomachs. And then people also very pressing 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.120 in people started raising concerns about the possible long term 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:59.400 effects of plastic on human health. But here's the problem. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:03.200 We're already that's the point of Prometheus and Pandora. The 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:07.400 lid of the jar been unscrewed. We knew the fire 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:12.199 of this new technology. We as a society had already 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:19.880 doubled down upon plastic. And today plastic is virtually irreplaceable. 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:25.960 I mean, there are obviously biodegradable alternatives in certain fields, right, 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:31.600 Like you can get biodegradable straws, cups, bags, and so on. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.839 And there are a lot of environmental cleanup programs, they're 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.079 recycling initiatives, but for better or worse, plastic is here 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:41.640 to stay. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.880 And I will say, Ben, you're right, there are alternatives, right, 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.400 But those biodegradable straws they suck, They deteriorate, they fall apart. 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.640 They just don't work as well as a plastic straw. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:55.880 And this is coming from someone who tries to avoid 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.600 getting a plastic straw whenever humanly possible metal straws. Okay, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.079 that's cool, but they make everything you drink taste kind 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.520 of metallic and that's not cool. It's really just that 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:11.120 the the Pandora's box you are describing ben is less 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:17.319 the greed of monopolistic corporations and more just the malaise 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.600 of consumers and just realizing that, Okay, sure there are problems, 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.600 but gosh, it's sure as convenient, isn't it. It's like, 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.920 we know all these problems with Amazon today, but you 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.600 don't see very many people giving up their Amazon despite 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.679 knowing all the labor problems and the monopoly problems and 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.079 all that stuff. It's a very similar example, and it 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.160 really does all translate to the almighty dollar at the 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:44.760 end of the day. 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:50.200 Agreed. And there's one Leviathan when big piece of this 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.679 story that does not get as much press as it deserves. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.960 It's this, how much did the big manufacturers know about 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.600 the dangers of plastic and when did they know it? 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.240 Perhaps most importantly, what did they do about it? We'll 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:20.080 tell you afterword from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Well, 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.200 they knew about it. They knew they knew way more 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.000 about it than the average person. And they went on 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.960 their merry way to the factories and to the banks. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.800 And the average person knew enough about it already for 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.640 it to be a red flag. I mean, there were 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.720 these studies about the bird stomachs and all of that 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.880 stuff that was out there. But yeah, you're right, Ben, 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.360 they just waltzed their happy asses to the bank and 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.920 cash those checks like forever. I mean, because this really 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.640 is the kind of thing where you're placing a long 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.880 term bet on plastics if you're one of these companies. 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.560 So concerns about plastic became even more mainstream in the seventies, 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.120 you know, ecology and recycle, reduce, reuse and all of 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:07.440 that stuff. The oil, chemical and plastic industries grew a 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.040 little bit anxious because they're like, how do we spin this? 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.200 You know, we don't want to be the big bad guys. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.040 We got to figure out a way to sell plastic 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.080 back to the consumers in a way that they can 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:18.440 feel good about. Right. 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.920 So they hatched what can accurately be called a conspiracy. 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.680 It's an insidious one. In fact, it is a conspiracy 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.440 that you may have participated in with the best of intentions. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.400 It's one that many of us have played a role 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:38.080 in this conspiracy in a large way. I hate to 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.400 ruin this for everybody is the concept of recycling plastic 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.960 That is the conspiracy in today's episode. At the first 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.840 National Conference of Packaging Waste in nineteen sixty nine, the 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.400 chief environmental manager of Dow Chemical presented a paper on 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.359 the explosive growth of what are called single use plastics. 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.360 We've all seen those. You know, you go to a 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.360 fast food place, you get your bag and your you 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.400 get your whopper in these trying times to that's an 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.360 Easter egg for just the three of us talking off air, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:13.000 and then you get. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:17.520 Your you're here with you with your flame world whopper 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.120 to give you comfort during these are trying. 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.040 Times, standing DeVito with an egg, but now it's a whopper. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.680 So you see these in cafeteria's, universities, restaurants, et cetera. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:37.520 And this environmental manager takes an interesting approach because he says, 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.600 you know, he extols the virtues of these things. They're 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.800 durable materials, they might conceivably last forever, but he also 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:50.800 points out the disposal problem, that's what he calls it. 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.760 He says, there's a coming deluge of plastic waste and 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.240 the industry is turning a blind eye to it, and 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.320 that they're going to continue turning a blind eye to 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.119 it for as long as possible. We a lot of 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:09.320 people didn't know the extent of this conspiracy until reporters 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.120 working with National Public Radio and a couple of other 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:18.159 outfits found documents that proved from the very beginning, the 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:23.840 same corporations telling customers that recycling was on them. Those 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.640 same corporations knew that large scale plastic recycling was a 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.639 pipe dream. It was a plastic pipe dream. It was 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.840 unrealistic to think it would actually work in an economically 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:37.680 feasible way at that scale. 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.840 Ben, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this on the 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:45.359 show before, But remember that iconic ecological ad campaign with 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.679 the Native American gentleman and the single tier, you know, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.000 because there's like piles of garbage behind him and was 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.879 presumably his native land or whatever. You know, I remember 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.840 freaking the guy's name. It turns out that dude wasn't 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.119 even a Native American at all. I think used like Italian, 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:06.919 and that ad campaign was developed by a lot of 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.320 these waste producing corporations. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.840 That's right, Yes, Yeah, that's an actor from spaghetti westerns 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:18.800 and we're talking about the Keep America Beautiful. Campaign. Also 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:24.040 known as kab Yeah, this is a great example of 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.080 how Big Plastic. That's just what we'll use as mental 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:32.479 shorthand for all these trade groups. Big Plastic decided that 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:37.560 instead of putting money into a solution for the problem 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.639 of plastic waste, which they correctly predicted would grow out 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.680 of control, instead of trying to solve that, they spent 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:49.360 money funding pr campaigns to blame you, the customer, for 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.600 the pollution. The world is going to hell in a handbasket, 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:57.400 not because of these massive corporations throwing this stuff everywhere, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.800 but because you use a plastic straw monster. 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.840 You know, I would call it brilliant if it wasn't 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:05.919 so evil, you know what. You know what, let's say 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.879 it's both. It can be both. It's brilliant and evil, 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.520 because that's right. Then they're punting the responsibility from them 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.800 because they're just giving you what you want. They're just 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.600 you know, continuing that legacy of convenience. It's your fault 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:22.800 for for throwing it in the in the in the ocean. 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.280 You're the one throwing it and making that Indian cry. 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.959 You did that, even if you've never been to the ocean. Yeah, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.879 I let's see if we importmante to that. How about Evilian? 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:37.000 Love it believal? 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.080 It's also done done with Gusto. No I like Avilian 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.080 because it makes me think of it bulliant. So it's 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.520 sort of like it's evil and brilliant, and it's done 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.879 with ebuliance because how how else do you sell it 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.480 if it's not like, got some rasmatas to it, you 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:51.920 know what I mean? 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:57.400 Aviliant? Yes, all right, booked, We'll we'll get Matt, we'll 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.800 get Mad on board with that too. Actually, let's just 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.320 we'll tell him, let's mess with his mind and tell 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:08.879 him that we always use that word right exactly. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:09.560 So. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:15.080 Uh so this large scale mind and media manipulation is 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.600 quite successful today. A lot of people still don't know 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.400 that Keep America Beautiful to your point, Noal was founded 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:28.520 by that industry and through twisting the narrative right of littering, 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.080 which you shouldn't litter that's that's not even a hot take, 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:39.800 put stuff in trash cans. Through that, through that Pavilian's move, Uh, 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.080 they were able to get public support. Even though Keep 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:50.240 America Beautiful was founded to prevent state bands on single 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:55.800 use plastic packaging like it was it was founded to 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.720 keep the one time use fork spice flowing the lack 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.840 of a better word. Yeah, and we know this because 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:05.640 there are documents from these companies. 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.879 That's right. You know, it's sort of like it reminds 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.280 me of the story we did on the material that's 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.600 in nonstick pans with the lawyer who kind of spearheaded 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.200 the whole investigation into uncovering very similar kind of secret 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.280 documents about what they knew, when they knew it and 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.000 how they essentially colluded or you know, yeah, that's that's 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.240 probably accurate to cover it up and to keep it 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:33.120 from the public. And this is no different. So what 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.680 they did was they did, like you said, Ben, manipulated 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.280 this narrative to they did have a solution at least 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.280 to the whole like making everyone sad, about making the 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.720 Indian cry and about feeling this guilt of all this 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.160 stuff they've been pumping out into the world. No, no, no, no, 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:53.000 there's another way, folks. It's called recycling, and it's something 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:55.960 that you too can be a part of and making 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.760 America beautiful, keeping America beautiful. You can be a part 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.159 of it. How cool is that? Man? That's like, you know, 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:06.480 they're literally selling you a gold star, the ability to 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.000 feel like you're doing your part. Not only can you 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.560 have your cake and eat it with a plastic fork too, 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.080 you can then turn that plastic fork into another plastic 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.639 fork or whatever else its upperware. The sky's the limit 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:22.920 recycling plastic. 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:28.160 And it feels good to do it too. Right where 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:32.520 you are, somehow, you are, somehow more aware, you're a 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:38.080 better steward of the planet. That's the idea that they're selling. 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:42.719 And if recycling worked the way that they described it, 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.119 then this would to a large degree be true. But 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:51.480 the problem is multiple internal company documents have indicated that 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.359 this was a move of self preservation on the part 0:22:55.359 --> 0:23:00.400 of the plastics industry. They needed to make people leave 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:05.000 plastic was sustainable. When I throw that fork in the 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:10.480 right bin, then I am really just giving someone else 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.600 in the future another fork, or another jug of milk 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:20.119 or something like that. The lobbyists in the plastic and 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:25.600 oil industry fought very hard and quite successfully to mandate 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:30.440 that triangle recycle symbol, you know the one. 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.560 It's like the ecological uroburros, but like in a good 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.440 way where it kind of like feeds back into itself. 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:38.760 You know what I mean, so it's what could this 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:41.000 It says all you need to know. It's like, hey, 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:44.400 you can be part of this amazing continuum of manufacturing. 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:49.560 Yeah, I was thinking ecological illuminati. I think both answers 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.840 are acceptable. I would even say, you know, all of 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:56.080 the above there. It did make an impact because it 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:01.600 gave us this belief that all of those items bearing 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:05.879 that mark could potentially be turned into new products. The 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:08.679 thing is, the vast majority of them were not turned 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:12.000 into new products. The vast majority of them are still 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:16.800 not turned into anything new. They can be we have 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:20.159 the technology. There's just not a market for these things. 0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:23.919 It's not a market for this recycled plastic, and in 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:30.200 many cases there's not a compelling financial reason to make them. 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:34.760 And that's because recycling has problems when we talk about plastics. 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:36.560 They are huge problems with recycling. 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:38.680 Yeah, I mean, remember we were talking at the top 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:40.760 of the show about how like this one particular type 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:44.080 of plastic might you know, be able to hold acid, 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:47.120 and there's other types of plastic that can hold rubbing, alcohol, etc. 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:50.600 I mean, you know, typically polymers are versatile and non 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:52.920 reactive in that way. But to your point, Bend, there 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:55.520 are different ones. There's a bunch of different ones, and 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:59.479 so you know, they don't all necessarily play nice together 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.639 because you would actually have to combine them and they 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.920 would have to gel chemically and in order to be 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.160