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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist, how much of you is plastic?

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Speaker 2: I think a credit card size amount per day day

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Speaker 2: and your brain crosses the brain blood barrier.

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Speaker 1: Your body overall. Yes, especially if you are a person

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Speaker 1: carrying a child inside of you, now that they probably

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Speaker 1: are going to get a dose of plastics too.

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Speaker 2: Basically lego at this point, guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, if you're not driving currently or operating heavy machinery,

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Speaker 1: take a pause and look around your environment and ask

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Speaker 1: yourself how many objects in your immediate vicinity contain plastic? Spoiler,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's so damn convenient, even if you are driving. About

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Speaker 2: how much of a.

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Speaker 3: Car is plastic nowadays versus I don't know what fifty

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Speaker 3: years ago.

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Speaker 2: Coding on the gear shifts, the dash panel, all the rubber.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that's different than plastic, But it's plastic.

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Speaker 1: You can go to some of the most inaccessible parts

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Speaker 1: of the Earth and you might reach a place where

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Speaker 1: humans have never been in recorded history. But you know

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Speaker 1: it, it probably beat you to the punch.

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Speaker 2: Plastic. Yeah, it really insists upon itself, as you would say, Ben,

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Speaker 2: and it likes to spread its plastic seed.

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Speaker 1: And now historically manufacturers ever since the dawn of plastic

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Speaker 1: can bake light and so on. They have claimed plastic

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Speaker 1: pollution can be solved by recycling. But as we learned

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, there's more than a little bit of

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know on that one.

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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Noah, our rider, die compatriot and colleague.

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Speaker 1: Our better third Matt Frederick is on adventures somewhat off

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Speaker 1: the grid, but we'll be returning soon, so say hello

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Speaker 1: if you see him in the wild. They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined today with our super producer Alexis code

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Speaker 1: name Doc Holliday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. Before we begin today's episode, take a second,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a safe place and not driving, and

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Speaker 1: look around just your immediate area. Don't think outside of

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Speaker 1: your room. Don't just the stuff you can see or

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Speaker 1: the stuff you can touch. Try counting how many things

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Speaker 1: you can identify as being made of plastic. Just take

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Speaker 1: a second and think about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, just on my desk right here, I've got

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Speaker 2: this tiny little plastic ummy bear that my kid uses

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Speaker 2: to make necklaces. So there's one a McDonald's cup. I've

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Speaker 2: got a bunch of little trinkets, you know. I got

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Speaker 2: a little plastic squirrel with a beanie. Like this guy

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Speaker 2: is the camera focusing on this cute little I'm really

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Speaker 2: bad at centering on this because it's off to the side.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: Got a bunch of like a bottle of hand sanitizer cords,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like I've got an ethernet cord that's wrapped

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Speaker 2: in rubber with plastic ends on it at the very least. Yeah, man,

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Speaker 2: a lot so this camera that we're recording into these

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Speaker 2: little cameras.

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Speaker 1: I live with a life sized plastic skeleton because that's

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Speaker 1: where I'm at, and.

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Speaker 2: Life don't spoil. I wanted to believe that Agent Scully

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Speaker 2: was in fact a real skeleton.

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Speaker 1: I think it is a huge injustice for us to

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Speaker 1: say that the nature of her physical material decides whether

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Speaker 1: or not she's real. But I'm very you know, just

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Speaker 1: like a pro pro b what you want kind of person.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, you know, and a lot of our

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Speaker 1: fellow listeners just did the same thing. You see the

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Speaker 1: objects on nearby counters, shelves, tables, right, and also think

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Speaker 1: about the furniture, Think about the device you're using to

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Speaker 1: play this episode. Think about the clothing you're wearing. Right,

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Speaker 1: what percentage of that is a synthetic polymer? The short

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Speaker 1: answer is they're probably For many of us in the

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Speaker 1: audience today, there are more plastic things around you than

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Speaker 1: you can easily count. Plastic is ubiquitous, Plastic is everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So today's question, how did it get here? When did

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Speaker 1: we know about it? And what does this mean for

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Speaker 1: the future. To answer this, we do have to start

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Speaker 1: at what maybe kind of a boring place, but it's

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Speaker 1: important for the rest of the episode. So here are

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Speaker 1: the facts. Plastic.

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Speaker 2: A brief history of plastic. Yeah, technically, plastic is a

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Speaker 2: it's like a catch all term sort of. It's a

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Speaker 2: word or for a group of things, for any material

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Speaker 2: that can be shaped, molded, or manipulated into any form.

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Speaker 2: Some of these things occur naturally. These substances occur naturally,

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Speaker 2: but most are man made. And today the word plastic

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Speaker 2: is really used to refer to a category of materials

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Speaker 2: that we collectively call polymers.

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Speaker 1: And plastics. First, shout out to everybody who's already remembering

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Speaker 1: that scene in the Graduate. It's great scene. Plastics were

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Speaker 1: often for times seen in the future. The science is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: A lot of children don't know this growing up in school,

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Speaker 1: But plastics are made from oil, right, the same kind

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Speaker 1: of oil that is, roughly speaking, the same kind of

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Speaker 1: oil that's used to make gas. Oil is car been rich.

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Speaker 1: That's what makes it such a popular fat these days.

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Speaker 1: And plastics are these large carbon containing compounds, if you know,

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Speaker 1: like you pointed out in all we're referring to them

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Speaker 1: in the modern sense. These polymers, these large molecules. They're

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Speaker 1: composed of these repeating units of shorter and shorter carbon

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Speaker 1: containing compounds called monomers. Chemists combine these different types of

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Speaker 1: monomers to make a vast a monopoly of plastics that

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Speaker 1: all have different chemical chemical properties, like how in the

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Speaker 1: Justice League or in the X Men or Avengers people

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Speaker 1: have different superpowers. Most of this stuff is inert and

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Speaker 1: the big, the big win for humanity is that it

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Speaker 1: often won't react chemically to other substances you can put

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Speaker 1: soap and plastic, right.

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Speaker 2: But it makes me think of that scene in Breaking

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Speaker 2: Bad where you know, they want to dissolve some bodies

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Speaker 2: right in acid, and the material that Walter White asks

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Speaker 2: Jesse to go get is are these plastic bins, which

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Speaker 2: seems like, you know, acid would melt right through polymer

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Speaker 2: bins instead. Jesse thinks this is absurd, so he does

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Speaker 2: it in the bathtub and the acid dissolves right through

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Speaker 2: the floor, showering you know, goo and dissolved body parts

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Speaker 2: all over the living room. But right, isn't that right?

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Speaker 2: Ben Like, there's something about the chemical makeup, the inertness

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Speaker 2: of plastic that even something as caustic as acid won't react.

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Speaker 1: With it, right, Yeah, And it depends on it depends

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Speaker 1: on the plastic, right exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a big plot point in Breaking Bad,

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Speaker 1: which I just rewatched a lot of it, but in

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Speaker 1: a very lazy way. I just rewatched my favorite scenes,

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Speaker 1: So I think it holds up. So how do we

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Speaker 1: get here? How do we get how did our lives

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Speaker 1: become inundated with this stuff? The story of plastic dates

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Speaker 1: back to the eighteen hundreds. In eighteen thsfty six, a

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Speaker 1: guy named Alexander Parks created something called park Scene. This

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Speaker 1: is generally considered the first thermoplastic. A guy named John

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Speaker 1: Wesley Hyatt in eighteen sixty nine saw an offer by

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Speaker 1: a business in New York to give away ten thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars to anyone who could make a substitute for ivory,

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Speaker 1: you know, ivory elephant tusk, and this inspired John Wesley

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Speaker 1: Hyatt to invent what we call celluloid today. The whole

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Speaker 1: reason there was an ivory shortage, by the way, was

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Speaker 1: because billiards was growing massively popular. It was the pog

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Speaker 1: or the Pokemon of its time, right, So this guy

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Speaker 1: invents this guy invents celluloid, and people were like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: this is amazing. But it didn't stop there. That's not

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Speaker 1: even the real revolution yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and celluloid, which is a ton twister and of itself,

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Speaker 2: is also still what people think of when they think

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Speaker 2: about film from cinema. It's printed on celluloid. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of I think that's probably not exactly accurate anymore, but

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Speaker 2: it's certainly what the original material was that was used

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Speaker 2: to project film. Then, in nineteen o seven, a guy

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Speaker 2: by the name of Leo Bakeland invented what he very

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Speaker 2: self aggrandizingly referred to as Bakelite, which was the first

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Speaker 2: fully synthetic plastic, So that meant that it had no

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Speaker 2: molecules that were found in nature. It was pure laboratory magic.

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Speaker 1: You're right, Noel Bakeland definitely definitely had his eye on

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Speaker 1: some marketing there. These two major publicly known successes got

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Speaker 1: the attention of the big players in the chemical industry,

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Speaker 1: so they just started throwing money into the potential of plastic,

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Speaker 1: the R and D the development. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: there was a time when they just started seeing They

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Speaker 1: decided that they would just discover and invent new types

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Speaker 1: of plast and then later they would figure out what

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Speaker 1: that stuff was good for. They just wanted to be

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Speaker 1: kind of the first past the post in the invention game.

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Speaker 1: And then World War let's fast forward. World War two

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Speaker 1: sparks this massive, unprecedented expansion of the plastic industry. Think

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Speaker 1: about it. Natural resources are at a premium. We want

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Speaker 1: a safe, viable, affordable alternative, and that's why production of

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Speaker 1: plastic increased by three hundred percent in the US. And

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Speaker 1: this pattern continued in one way or another at the

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Speaker 1: end of the war. For a time, people thought plastic

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Speaker 1: would save the world. Plastic was a miracle substance that

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Speaker 1: may one day prove as historically important as the so

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Speaker 1: called Philosopher's Stone of alchemy. Except plastic was real, or

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Speaker 1: at the very least sliced bread. You know, but sliced bread.

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Speaker 1: It's got this cool.

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Speaker 2: Thing about it where you know, you eat it and

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Speaker 2: then it's gone and you don't have to worry about

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Speaker 2: it hanging around for generations. But it turns out as

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Speaker 2: far back as the sixties, folks in the US already

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Speaker 2: were realizing that plastics, while they were durable and lightweight

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Speaker 2: and able to be molded into any number of amazing shapes,

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Speaker 2: stuck around for a long long time, and they're already

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Speaker 2: kind of started to be this I don't know if

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Speaker 2: distrust is the right word, but a certain awareness and

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Speaker 2: trepidation around, like, should we really throw our whole lot

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Speaker 2: in with this material when we're already seeing that studies

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Speaker 2: are showing that it causes problems with the environment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the apprehension was growing. In nineteen sixty one, study

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Speaker 1: found that five percent of birds had plastic on some

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Speaker 1: sort in their stomachs. And then people also very pressing

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Speaker 1: in people started raising concerns about the possible long term

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Speaker 1: effects of plastic on human health. But here's the problem.

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Speaker 1: We're already that's the point of Prometheus and Pandora. The

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Speaker 1: lid of the jar been unscrewed. We knew the fire

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Speaker 1: of this new technology. We as a society had already

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Speaker 1: doubled down upon plastic. And today plastic is virtually irreplaceable.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are obviously biodegradable alternatives in certain fields, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you can get biodegradable straws, cups, bags, and so on.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of environmental cleanup programs, they're

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Speaker 1: recycling initiatives, but for better or worse, plastic is here

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Speaker 1: to stay.

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Speaker 2: And I will say, Ben, you're right, there are alternatives, right,

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Speaker 2: But those biodegradable straws they suck, They deteriorate, they fall apart.

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Speaker 2: They just don't work as well as a plastic straw.

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Speaker 2: And this is coming from someone who tries to avoid

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Speaker 2: getting a plastic straw whenever humanly possible metal straws. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's cool, but they make everything you drink taste kind

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Speaker 2: of metallic and that's not cool. It's really just that

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Speaker 2: the the Pandora's box you are describing ben is less

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Speaker 2: the greed of monopolistic corporations and more just the malaise

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Speaker 2: of consumers and just realizing that, Okay, sure there are problems,

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Speaker 2: but gosh, it's sure as convenient, isn't it. It's like,

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Speaker 2: we know all these problems with Amazon today, but you

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Speaker 2: don't see very many people giving up their Amazon despite

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Speaker 2: knowing all the labor problems and the monopoly problems and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. It's a very similar example, and it

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Speaker 2: really does all translate to the almighty dollar at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day.

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Speaker 1: Agreed. And there's one Leviathan when big piece of this

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Speaker 1: story that does not get as much press as it deserves.

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Speaker 1: It's this, how much did the big manufacturers know about

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Speaker 1: the dangers of plastic and when did they know it?

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Speaker 1: Perhaps most importantly, what did they do about it? We'll

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Speaker 1: tell you afterword from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Well,

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Speaker 1: they knew about it. They knew they knew way more

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Speaker 1: about it than the average person. And they went on

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Speaker 1: their merry way to the factories and to the banks.

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Speaker 2: And the average person knew enough about it already for

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Speaker 2: it to be a red flag. I mean, there were

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Speaker 2: these studies about the bird stomachs and all of that

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Speaker 2: stuff that was out there. But yeah, you're right, Ben,

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Speaker 2: they just waltzed their happy asses to the bank and

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Speaker 2: cash those checks like forever. I mean, because this really

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Speaker 2: is the kind of thing where you're placing a long

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Speaker 2: term bet on plastics if you're one of these companies.

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Speaker 2: So concerns about plastic became even more mainstream in the seventies,

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Speaker 2: you know, ecology and recycle, reduce, reuse and all of

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Speaker 2: that stuff. The oil, chemical and plastic industries grew a

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Speaker 2: little bit anxious because they're like, how do we spin this?

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't want to be the big bad guys.

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Speaker 2: We got to figure out a way to sell plastic

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Speaker 2: back to the consumers in a way that they can

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Speaker 2: feel good about. Right.

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Speaker 1: So they hatched what can accurately be called a conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: It's an insidious one. In fact, it is a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: that you may have participated in with the best of intentions.

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Speaker 1: It's one that many of us have played a role

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Speaker 1: in this conspiracy in a large way. I hate to

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Speaker 1: ruin this for everybody is the concept of recycling plastic

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Speaker 1: That is the conspiracy in today's episode. At the first

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Speaker 1: National Conference of Packaging Waste in nineteen sixty nine, the

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Speaker 1: chief environmental manager of Dow Chemical presented a paper on

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Speaker 1: the explosive growth of what are called single use plastics.

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Speaker 1: We've all seen those. You know, you go to a

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Speaker 1: fast food place, you get your bag and your you

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Speaker 1: get your whopper in these trying times to that's an

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Speaker 1: Easter egg for just the three of us talking off air,

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Speaker 1: and then you get.

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Speaker 2: Your you're here with you with your flame world whopper

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Speaker 2: to give you comfort during these are trying.

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Speaker 1: Times, standing DeVito with an egg, but now it's a whopper.

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Speaker 1: So you see these in cafeteria's, universities, restaurants, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And this environmental manager takes an interesting approach because he says,

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Speaker 1: you know, he extols the virtues of these things. They're

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Speaker 1: durable materials, they might conceivably last forever, but he also

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Speaker 1: points out the disposal problem, that's what he calls it.

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Speaker 1: He says, there's a coming deluge of plastic waste and

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Speaker 1: the industry is turning a blind eye to it, and

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Speaker 1: that they're going to continue turning a blind eye to

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Speaker 1: it for as long as possible. We a lot of

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Speaker 1: people didn't know the extent of this conspiracy until reporters

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Speaker 1: working with National Public Radio and a couple of other

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Speaker 1: outfits found documents that proved from the very beginning, the

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Speaker 1: same corporations telling customers that recycling was on them. Those

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Speaker 1: same corporations knew that large scale plastic recycling was a

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Speaker 1: pipe dream. It was a plastic pipe dream. It was

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Speaker 1: unrealistic to think it would actually work in an economically

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Speaker 1: feasible way at that scale.

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Speaker 2: Ben, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this on the

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Speaker 2: show before, But remember that iconic ecological ad campaign with

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Speaker 2: the Native American gentleman and the single tier, you know,

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Speaker 2: because there's like piles of garbage behind him and was

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Speaker 2: presumably his native land or whatever. You know, I remember

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Speaker 2: freaking the guy's name. It turns out that dude wasn't

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Speaker 2: even a Native American at all. I think used like Italian,

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Speaker 2: and that ad campaign was developed by a lot of

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Speaker 2: these waste producing corporations.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yes, Yeah, that's an actor from spaghetti westerns

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Speaker 1: and we're talking about the Keep America Beautiful. Campaign. Also

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Speaker 1: known as kab Yeah, this is a great example of

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Speaker 1: how Big Plastic. That's just what we'll use as mental

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Speaker 1: shorthand for all these trade groups. Big Plastic decided that

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Speaker 1: instead of putting money into a solution for the problem

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Speaker 1: of plastic waste, which they correctly predicted would grow out

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Speaker 1: of control, instead of trying to solve that, they spent

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Speaker 1: money funding pr campaigns to blame you, the customer, for

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Speaker 1: the pollution. The world is going to hell in a handbasket,

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Speaker 1: not because of these massive corporations throwing this stuff everywhere,

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Speaker 1: but because you use a plastic straw monster.

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Speaker 2: You know, I would call it brilliant if it wasn't

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Speaker 2: so evil, you know what. You know what, let's say

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Speaker 2: it's both. It can be both. It's brilliant and evil,

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Speaker 2: because that's right. Then they're punting the responsibility from them

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Speaker 2: because they're just giving you what you want. They're just

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Speaker 2: you know, continuing that legacy of convenience. It's your fault

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Speaker 2: for for throwing it in the in the in the ocean.

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Speaker 2: You're the one throwing it and making that Indian cry.

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Speaker 1: You did that, even if you've never been to the ocean. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I let's see if we importmante to that. How about Evilian?

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Speaker 1: Love it believal?

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Speaker 2: It's also done done with Gusto. No I like Avilian

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Speaker 2: because it makes me think of it bulliant. So it's

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Speaker 2: sort of like it's evil and brilliant, and it's done

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Speaker 2: with ebuliance because how how else do you sell it

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Speaker 2: if it's not like, got some rasmatas to it, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Aviliant? Yes, all right, booked, We'll we'll get Matt, we'll

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Speaker 1: get Mad on board with that too. Actually, let's just

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Speaker 1: we'll tell him, let's mess with his mind and tell

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Speaker 1: him that we always use that word right exactly.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: Uh so this large scale mind and media manipulation is

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Speaker 1: quite successful today. A lot of people still don't know

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Speaker 1: that Keep America Beautiful to your point, Noal was founded

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Speaker 1: by that industry and through twisting the narrative right of littering,

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Speaker 1: which you shouldn't litter that's that's not even a hot take,

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Speaker 1: put stuff in trash cans. Through that, through that Pavilian's move, Uh,

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Speaker 1: they were able to get public support. Even though Keep

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Speaker 1: America Beautiful was founded to prevent state bands on single

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Speaker 1: use plastic packaging like it was it was founded to

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Speaker 1: keep the one time use fork spice flowing the lack

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Speaker 1: of a better word. Yeah, and we know this because

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Speaker 1: there are documents from these companies.

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Speaker 2: That's right. You know, it's sort of like it reminds

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Speaker 2: me of the story we did on the material that's

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Speaker 2: in nonstick pans with the lawyer who kind of spearheaded

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Speaker 2: the whole investigation into uncovering very similar kind of secret

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Speaker 2: documents about what they knew, when they knew it and

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Speaker 2: how they essentially colluded or you know, yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 2: probably accurate to cover it up and to keep it

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Speaker 2: from the public. And this is no different. So what

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Speaker 2: they did was they did, like you said, Ben, manipulated

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Speaker 2: this narrative to they did have a solution at least

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Speaker 2: to the whole like making everyone sad, about making the

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Speaker 2: Indian cry and about feeling this guilt of all this

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Speaker 2: stuff they've been pumping out into the world. No, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: there's another way, folks. It's called recycling, and it's something

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Speaker 2: that you too can be a part of and making

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Speaker 2: America beautiful, keeping America beautiful. You can be a part

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Speaker 2: of it. How cool is that? Man? That's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're literally selling you a gold star, the ability to

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Speaker 2: feel like you're doing your part. Not only can you

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Speaker 2: have your cake and eat it with a plastic fork too,

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Speaker 2: you can then turn that plastic fork into another plastic

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Speaker 2: fork or whatever else its upperware. The sky's the limit

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Speaker 2: recycling plastic.

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Speaker 1: And it feels good to do it too. Right where

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Speaker 1: you are, somehow, you are, somehow more aware, you're a

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Speaker 1: better steward of the planet. That's the idea that they're selling.

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Speaker 1: And if recycling worked the way that they described it,

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Speaker 1: then this would to a large degree be true. But

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Speaker 1: the problem is multiple internal company documents have indicated that

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Speaker 1: this was a move of self preservation on the part

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Speaker 1: of the plastics industry. They needed to make people leave

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Speaker 1: plastic was sustainable. When I throw that fork in the

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Speaker 1: right bin, then I am really just giving someone else

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Speaker 1: in the future another fork, or another jug of milk

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Speaker 1: or something like that. The lobbyists in the plastic and

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Speaker 1: oil industry fought very hard and quite successfully to mandate

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Speaker 1: that triangle recycle symbol, you know the one.

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Speaker 2: It's like the ecological uroburros, but like in a good

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Speaker 2: way where it kind of like feeds back into itself.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean, so it's what could this

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Speaker 2: It says all you need to know. It's like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you can be part of this amazing continuum of manufacturing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking ecological illuminati. I think both answers

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Speaker 1: are acceptable. I would even say, you know, all of

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Speaker 1: the above there. It did make an impact because it

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Speaker 1: gave us this belief that all of those items bearing

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Speaker 1: that mark could potentially be turned into new products. The

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Speaker 1: thing is, the vast majority of them were not turned

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Speaker 1: into new products. The vast majority of them are still

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Speaker 1: not turned into anything new. They can be we have

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Speaker 1: the technology. There's just not a market for these things.

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Speaker 1: It's not a market for this recycled plastic, and in

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Speaker 1: many cases there's not a compelling financial reason to make them.

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Speaker 1: And that's because recycling has problems when we talk about plastics.

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Speaker 1: They are huge problems with recycling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, remember we were talking at the top

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Speaker 2: of the show about how like this one particular type

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Speaker 2: of plastic might you know, be able to hold acid,

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Speaker 2: and there's other types of plastic that can hold rubbing, alcohol, etc.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, typically polymers are versatile and non

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Speaker 2: reactive in that way. But to your point, Bend, there

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Speaker 2: are different ones. There's a bunch of different ones, and

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Speaker 2: so you know, they don't all necessarily play nice together

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Speaker 2: because you would actually have to combine them and they

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Speaker 2: would have to gel chemically and in order to be

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Speaker 2: repurposed into something else. And so all of the plastic

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Speaker 2: that this that would be needed to do this properly

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Speaker 2: or effectively would have to be sorted by hand to

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Speaker 2: separate out this is this type of plastic, This is

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Speaker 2: this type of plastic. This is this type of plastic.

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Speaker 2: They can't commingle, So consumers don't know what that is, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's not and there's not enough bins in

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Speaker 2: a recycling you know, container to even deal with that

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Speaker 2: on the front end, right, So that means it's way

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Speaker 2: expensive to sort all of the plastics to make new

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Speaker 2: plastic from old plastic. Then it would be just to

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Speaker 2: make it from oil.

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Speaker 1: Yep, just make new stuff. It's true that this is

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Speaker 1: the episode of where we're somewhat ruined recycling, So.

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Speaker 2: That's the subtitle. That's the sub But I mean this

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Speaker 2: isn't to say that no plastic is recycled, right, Ben.

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Speaker 2: I mean we if you read about usually kind of

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Speaker 2: bespoke products often that are more expensive to buy to

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Speaker 2: the consumer, that are in fact made of all recycled materials,

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Speaker 2: are all recycled plastic. But you're paying a premium for

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Speaker 2: that privilege of knowing that you're buying something that was

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Speaker 2: made with recycled plastic. That's because it takes more work

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Speaker 2: to make it that way.

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Speaker 1: It has to be sorted by hand, you know, Like

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Speaker 1: you said, you have to find the plastics that play

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Speaker 1: well together. And then just for an example, yeah, there

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Speaker 1: is there is actual recycling a plastic. Sometimes it's sold

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Speaker 1: it at a premium, as you mentioned, but the stuff

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Speaker 1: that's recycled is often not used in the ways you

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Speaker 1: think it would be used. Like take a plastic milk chug.

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Speaker 1: Don't with your plastic milk chug. You wash it out

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Speaker 1: because you don't want it to smell up your house

433
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: or your trash bag. And then while you're doing that,

434
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: you say, oh, wait, I recycle, so I'm going to

435
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 1: put this in the blue the blue receptacle, and then

436
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: you think, okay, off on your journey. Well, plastic jug, bro,

437
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: I wish you luck in this your secular version of reincarnation.

438
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: That plastic jug can only get recycled a few times

439
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: because it degrades in quality every time it's recycled. So

440
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: this means it can only happen it can only be

441
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: recycled a finite number of times. So what happened to

442
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: the used plastic? Well, in the US, we did something

443
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: that's very popular in a lot of disposal strategies of

444
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: this country. We shipped it somewhere where we couldn't see.

445
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: It, you know what I mean, out of sight, out

446
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: of my like a child. It's not I can't see it.

447
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: It's not there anymore. We Yeah, Unfortunately, that is an

448
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: all too common thing that we as Americans fall a

449
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: victim to. And to your point, Ben, like even like

450
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: the idea, this is interesting to me, and this is

451
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: maybe more of a question than I have if it

452
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: can only be recycled to a number of times, Like

453
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: how do you know when you're done, when you've no

454
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: longer got a viable product? Isn't that something you have

455
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: to track as well?

456
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean that's a really good point because then

457
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: we have this whole logistic aspect to it, right logistical

458
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: aspect to it, where we can't just do our best

459
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: to recycled stuff. We also have to make sure that

460
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: we're recycling something into something viable. The complications alone could

461
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: cripple the entire project, So shif it off to China. Right.

462
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: For a long time, labor was cheaper there. Also, environmental

463
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: laws were lacks right, or at least on paper. The

464
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: US laws were more strict the country of China and

465
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: businesses in China. Eventually, we're no longer able to find

466
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: uses for all of this discarded plastic, so now they've

467
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: largely stopped accepting it. There's just not much of a

468
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: market for this recycled stuff. And that means that a

469
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: lot of the plastic in this country, in the US

470
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: ends up getting discover and it piles up, piles up,

471
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, this gives you an

472
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: existential crisis. There's there's a question I have to ask

473
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: at the very.

474
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: End of this. Yeah, and you know, and maybe you

475
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: can answer this, Ben, I know, you know, And I

476
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 2: live in Decatur, Georgia, and the city of Decatur has

477
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,239
Speaker 2: been plagued with corruption in terms of like you know,

478
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: overcharging people for utilities, and there was like a big

479
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: lawsuit all this stuff. But I've also heard rumor that

480
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 2: my little blue recycling bin hopper that I you know,

481
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: roll out kick onto the curb every Monday, that that

482
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: just ends up in the landfill more often than not.

483
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: That a lot of municipalities don't do a good job

484
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: of recycling, even when you think that's what you're doing.

485
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, and that's that's something that is unfortunately

486
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: not historically uncommon, you know what I mean. Like, consider

487
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: a lot of office buildings where you know, people think

488
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: they are throwing that aluminum can, that plastic bottle into

489
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: the recycling bin, and then night, maybe you're working late,

490
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: then you see that the people who do custodial services

491
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: in that office just throw it all in the same place.

492
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: And then maybe you tell yourself there's a magical Sussian

493
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: sorting machine that handles everything like a.

494
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: Harry Potter had of some sort.

495
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, but it goes to trash hat.

496
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: But it goes to the whole point that we started

497
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: with here, is that it's all about optics. It's all

498
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: about selling you the dream. It's not actually about the practice.

499
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: It's more about like the image. Right. So what happened

500
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: as as this continued, you know, especially after China's sort

501
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: of rejecting this material, I believe that that study reference

502
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: earlier about birds having plastics in their stomachs. I think

503
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: the number then was about five percent. But by the eighties,

504
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: and you know, in true eighties excess fashion, that number

505
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: increased to eighty percent.

506
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: Eighty percent of birds in a similar study twenty years

507
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 1: later had plastic in their stomach And now as we

508
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: record this, multiple studies indicate that almost ninety seven percent

509
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: of all birds have some sort of plastics somewhere in

510
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: their system. Today, as we record this, about a million

511
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: birds going to die this year due specifically to their

512
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: stomachs being stuffed with plastic.

513
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: Man, a good way to go. And you know, my

514
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: qualms with the bird population been but even I don't

515
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: think they deserve to go out like that. Agreed.

516
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: And so you know, the one thing you want for

517
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: an enemy you respect, I would imagine from your perspective,

518
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: nole is to is that they have an honorable death right.

519
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: I mean, at least, let let it be spectacular. Let

520
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: their stomachs explode from eating wedding rice or something. You know,

521
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: I'm kidding, And bird people out there, please don't don't

522
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: cancel me. I'm very much kidding, But no, it turns

523
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: out that the concept of recycling as it's been sold

524
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: to the United States public and other places around the

525
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: world is at the very very least misleading. Is an

526
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: optics first kind of thing, as opposed to, like, what's

527
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: the actual end result of this whole operation?

528
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. I like the way one industry insider

529
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: put it. They said, selling recycling sells plastic. And then

530
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: there's an interesting statement by a guy named Larry Thomas,

531
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: who's a former president of the Society of the Plastics

532
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Industry which today is known as PIA Plastics Industry Association.

533
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: He was at the helm at, one of the most

534
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: powerful trade groups for the industry in DC, and he

535
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: said that if the public thinks that recycling is working,

536
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: then they are not going to be as concerned about

537
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: the environment. And to be fair, the industry's current position

538
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: is that there is no conspiracy afoot I wanted to

539
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: give voice to the other side, to their perspective. Guy

540
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: named Steve Russell, a representative for the plastics industry who

541
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: was for a while the vice president of Plastics for

542
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: the American Chemistry Council, says the industry has never intentionally

543
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: misled the public about recycling and that they're committed to

544
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: ensuring one day that all plastic is recycled. And he says,

545
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, public commitment to recycling programs, public pressure, and

546
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: evolving technology will all play huge roles in helping recycle

547
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: all plastic. Essentially, he's saying, no one ever intentionally misled anyone,

548
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: and maybe one day recycling can do what the industry

549
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: for decades claimed it was already doing. Just think about

550
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: the double think in that statement. It's Orwellian.

551
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of mind blowing. I don't even know how

552
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: to respond to that, Ben.

553
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: I mean, we're not saying, we have to be clear,

554
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: we are not saying recycling is anything other than an amazing, awesome,

555
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: potentially world changing, world saving concept.

556
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 2: Do you remember, though, Ben, like being a kid and

557
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: going to like the recycling center and getting a tour

558
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. I mean, it was something that's

559
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: sold to you as early as as ah, you know,

560
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 2: elementary school, recycled, reduce, reuse, all of that stuff and again,

561
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: and we're gonna we're gonna continue on. But I do

562
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: want to say, like recycling paper it's great, recycling paper works.

563
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: You can smush all that stuff together and make all

564
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: kinds of cool stuff, uh, you know, and pulp and

565
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: you know make You can even buy recycled paper for

566
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: your copy paper if you want. There's all kinds of

567
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: uses for recycled paper. But the plastic part just a

568
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: much more tricky. Let's call it supply chain problem, right.

569
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

570
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

571
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: And again, like I I'm conflicted about this because I

572
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: love the idea of recycling, and I love the idea

573
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: of individual people being able to make a fundamental difference

574
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: in the world around them, you know what I mean.

575
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: I love the power of the individual. But what we

576
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: are saying here is that the idea of recycling in

577
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: the world of plastic the way it's been practiced is

578
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: not near as widespread as the plastic industry would want

579
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: you to believe. And this will probably continue to be

580
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: the case until there's some revolutionary technology that Harry Potter

581
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: trash hat which is a great phrase, until it comes online,

582
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: or until it becomes somehow more profitable to recycle and

583
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: reuse plastic rather than to make new plastic. Neither of

584
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: those things have happened yet, neither of them. And to

585
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: compound the issue here, we are still learning the full

586
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: scope of this problem. We may not know the long

587
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: term consequences of this issue for years and years and

588
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: years to come, And that doesn't mean it doesn't affect us.

589
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: It means that we don't know what's going to happen,

590
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: has never happened on Earth before, We have no idea

591
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: what plot twister ahead.

592
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean each year human beings produced three hundred

593
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 2: and sixty million tons of plastic, and according to one study,

594
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 2: around eight million tons of it enters the ocean, and

595
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: until recently, the fate of what's called microplastics, which is

596
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: plastics that contain particles less than five millimeters in size

597
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: in the ocean has been unclear, But to your point,

598
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: been a recent study. We're at least starting to get

599
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: a whiff of what these microplastic particles are doing when

600
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: they settle in marine sediments, following the pattern of a

601
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: lot of other pollutants. So we're not just talking about

602
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: like hard goods that stick around. We're talking about the

603
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: chemical impact of plastics and how it can actually saturate

604
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: and contaminate soil and water and beyond.

605
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, nol microplastics and nanoplastics, which are they

606
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: have a diameter of less than point zero zero one millimeters.

607
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: Both of these form from the abrasion of larger pieces

608
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: of plastic dumped into the ocean, so the stuff keeps

609
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: kind of breaking itself into smaller and smaller chunks, and

610
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: research in wildlife and in laboratory animals has established some

611
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: pretty compelling links between tiny plastic and infertility, inflammation, even cancer.

612
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: Microplastics have polluted the entire planet, from the Arctic to

613
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: your neighborhood park to the depths of the ocean. Like

614
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: you probably saw not too long ago, scientists being startled

615
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 1: to get to a very remote part of the world

616
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: under the ice in Antarctica and then see that there

617
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: was plastic there. This is happening.

618
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you ever heard you ever thought of the concept

619
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: of airborne plastic ben Again, this the old school model

620
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: of plastic pollution is much more just a nuisance, right

621
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: or like, okay, it gets in birds, The physical chunks

622
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: of things get in birds and like choke them or

623
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: caused them to have a horrible digestive problems that can

624
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: ultimately kill them. But yeah, airborne plastic Apparently, human beings,

625
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: according to a previous study that we found for this episode,

626
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: have shown people eat and breathe in at least fifty

627
00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 2: thousand particles of microplastic a year, and that MicroPlace plastic

628
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: pollution is absolutely just raining down upon city dwellers, and

629
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: it's not going away anytime soon.

630
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: No, it's not, which means that to a large degree,

631
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: this conspiracy was successful because the profit margins stayed consistent.

632
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: But now it's coming to a head, and we have

633
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: to ask ourselves what does this mean for the future.

634
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor. We've returned,

635
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: and let's open this segment about the future with a

636
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: quote from Rolling Stone that gives us a troubling summation

637
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: of the dilemma we face. No could I ask you

638
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: to do the honors here?

639
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely, sir. Rolling Stone puts it out like this. More

640
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: than half the plastics now on Earth has been created

641
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 2: since two thousand and two, and plastic pollution is on

642
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: pace to double by twenty thirty. At its root, the

643
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: global plastics crisis is a product of our addiction to

644
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: fossil fuels. The private profit and public harm of the

645
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: oil industry is very well understood. And again this is

646
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: all quote from this Rolling Stone article by Tim Dickinson,

647
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: which absolutely recommend fully reading. Let's continue, oil is refined

648
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: and distributed to customers who consumers rather who benefit from

649
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: gasoline's short useful lifespan in a combustion engine, leaving behind

650
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: atmospheric pollution for generations. By the same pattern, and the

651
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: same tragedy of the commons is playing out with another

652
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: gift of the oil and gas giants whose drilling draws

653
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: up the petroleum precursors for plastics.

654
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. It's they're troublingly similar cycles, right, and you

655
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: know the proof is out there. Companies knew about the

656
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: issues with fossil fuels dating back to the seventies and

657
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: didn't say a word about it.

658
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: So that's where we're at.

659
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: Since nineteen fifty, the world has created six point three

660
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: trillion kilograms of plastic waste. Ninety one percent of that

661
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 1: has never been recycled even once. This trend is only

662
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: going to accelerate as emerging economies increase their plastic consumption.

663
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: Like think about this. In twenty eighteen, advanced economies in

664
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: the world were using twenty times more plastic than per

665
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: capita than consumers in places like Indonesia or in India

666
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: and now people are on the way up right, there's

667
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: a higher demand for plastic, and the industry itself, Big Plastic,

668
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: is counting on that growing demand to keep selling stuff

669
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: even though a great deal of it will still be

670
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: around long after and probably long after everyone listening to

671
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: this podcast or watching this YouTube clip today has been

672
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: long dead. And this is that existential crisis. I wanted

673
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: to ask you about this. Everyone, you know, you doc,

674
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: all of us listening along at home or in our

675
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: cars are counting the pieces of plastic around us. Do

676
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: you experience existential dread when you hold like a plastic

677
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: fork and realize just how much longer it will be

678
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: around than you, how much more permanent it is in

679
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: the scheme of things than you, a living being that

680
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: it bothers me?

681
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it bothers me too, And you know who else

682
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: it bothers ben kids who, as you well know, kids

683
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: these days. I say that as someone who's potentially becoming

684
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: an old grandpapa. But kids these days are what the

685
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 2: kids these days call pretty woke. They are hip to

686
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: all these societal problems, political and environmental and otherwise. And

687
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: you know else, kids like legos and apparently a lot

688
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 2: of kids who are fond of Legos begged the Lego

689
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: Corporation in the form of letters that they wrote to

690
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 2: the company to stop using single use plastic bags in

691
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: their packaging. So Lego heard that. The Lego Group Chief

692
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 2: executive Officer Nils B. Christiansen said, we have received many

693
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: letters from children about the environment asking us to remove

694
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: single use plastic packaging. We've been exploring alternatives for some time,

695
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: and the passion and ideas from children inspired us to

696
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: begin to make changes. So apparently they are looking to

697
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: roll this out in the very near future and it

698
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: will be replaced with paper, which again, like we said

699
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: earlier in the episode, is much more viable as a

700
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: recyclable good for single use materials. It's investing four hundred

701
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: million dollars over three years to improve its sustainability efforts overall,

702
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: the Lego Corporation. Unfortunately, you know, legos themselves made of plastic,

703
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: but at least kids aren't throwing their Legos in the ocean.

704
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: Presumably it's something you keep around and pass down to siblings,

705
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: and you know, so that's I think that's fine. Yeah,

706
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: I mean they're so expensive, they are quite expensive.

707
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: You're a parent. You're aware of that.

708
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: I am aware of that. They're also murder on your

709
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: bare feet, as every parent knows when you're walking around. Thankfully,

710
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: my kids more into bracelets than she has legos. But

711
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: that's plastic beads. But again, those are meant to be

712
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: kept around and given to friends and hopefully not just chucked.

713
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, our super producer Doc Holliday off Mike just

714
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: kind of during our ad break exasperatedly exclaimed, Oh, this

715
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: is depressing, you know, And then you're not wrong, Doc,

716
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: You're not wrong. But hopefully we can sort it out

717
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: before we wreck the planet entirely, not to sound too

718
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: tree huggry about it, but sure feels like we're hitting

719
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: a tipping point with all this stuff.

720
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: It's not a look. Extinction doesn't care about vague, the

721
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: vague stories we have made up for ourselves. Extinction does

722
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: not care about political leanings. It doesn't care about religion.

723
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't care about money the economy, which again is

724
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: just another religion. I put out the clarion call a

725
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: long time ago. I don't think anybody has successfully proven

726
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: a difference between the concept of an economy and the

727
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 1: concept of a religion. But there is one fascinating point,

728
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 1: and I appreciate it so much man, that you brought

729
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of light here. There's one fascinating point.

730
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 1: The plastics crisis is different from climate change and the

731
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: way it's been treated. Remember, like I mentioned, oil corporations

732
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: put a lot of money into denying the concept of

733
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: climate change for a very long time. But the folks

734
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: over what we call big plastic, and to be fair,

735
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: there are a lot less like two separate entities and

736
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: a lot more like fingers on the same hand. But

737
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call big plastic, they are not

738
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: denying the problem anymore. They're seeking to convince consumers and

739
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: regulators that despite the fact they put all this pollution

740
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: out on the planet, they can be the trusted experts

741
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: to make plastic use sustainable. It's something they call a

742
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: circular economy, so that plastic does actually get recycled continually

743
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: and doesn't degrade. The cynical way to translate that, honestly,

744
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: is this recycling?

745
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 3: You know?

746
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: For real?

747
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: This time? Sure, I like that it's got a nice ring,

748
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 2: not on a down note, but it just somebody just

749
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: popped into my head that we hadn't even talked about

750
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: what about plastic garbage bags? Like, I mean, don't they

751
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: just end up in like landfills? Like that's a question forever.

752
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's I'm sorry. I took us down

753
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: a peg. You brought us up a peg and no, no,

754
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: it took us right back down. But what I don't know?

755
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: Are there any environmental scientists out there? Any polymer scientists

756
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: out there? You know, Lego's talking about exploring alternatives even

757
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: to the plastic bricks.

758
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: What does that look like?

759
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 2: Why are we so hooked on plastic?

760
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: Let us know, Yeah, let us know, Let us know

761
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: how you think this is going to work out. We

762
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: are all ears, honestly everybody should be. We cannot predict

763
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: the future, but we do see troubling trends and we

764
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. You can find us on Instagram.

765
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter. You can find us

766
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: on Facebook. We love to recommend our favorite page on

767
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: the good old inter and that is our Facebook community page.

768
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. But wait, you can find

769
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: us as individuals too, should the spirit move you to

770
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: do so, you certainly can.

771
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: You can find me exclusively on Instagram where I am

772
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: at How now? Noel Brown. You know, I post a

773
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 2: lot of like crazy cosplay videos from my kid, who's

774
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: a delight and also very much into the environment, and

775
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: you know, cooking experiments under lockdown, occasional drumming exercises, and

776
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: I'm starting to get into yoga, Ben. I just did

777
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: like three days straight of a beginner yoga YouTube video.

778
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 2: Starting to really enjoy that. So maybe you'll see me

779
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 2: in cow pose or I don't know the names yet,

780
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: but you could see that. Where are you Ben on

781
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: the internets?

782
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, it's interesting mentioned the yoga stuff. Nol

783
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 1: my Pale, Alex your pal as well. It's got super

784
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: into yoga recently.

785
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: He's the one who told me which videos to watch

786
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 2: yoga with Adrian for anyone else out there that's trying

787
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: to dip their toe in the yoga pool.

788
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: Nice credit to you, Alex. If you're listening to this show,

789
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: if you're already on the internet, you can find me

790
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: having any number of misadventures on Instagram where I'm at

791
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: them bulling, and can find me on Twitter where I'm

792
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: at Ben BULLINGHSW. You'll recognize it's me because you'll see

793
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: a tweet that I wrote before I came into this episode,

794
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: saying that the research really got to me. The plastic

795
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: is everywhere. I will aim to make less depressing tweets

796
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: in the future.

797
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: It's when you started getting into the airborne plastic that

798
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 2: it really started getting dark. This is all pretty dark,

799
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: but I don't know. It's always darkest before the dawn.

800
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: How far away are we from children being born with

801
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: plastic in them? Anyhow? Tell us about it. You can

802
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: also give us a phone call if you are not

803
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:54,919
Speaker 1: the type to sip the social needs.

804
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: That's right, We're one eight three three STDWYTK. Leave us

805
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: a voicemail memo message. Try to keep it concise. Much

806
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: more likely to get on one of our handy dandy

807
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: listener mail episodes if you do that. But if you

808
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 2: got something that needs to be broken up into a

809
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: couple of these, I think what's the limit been a

810
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: couple of minutes for each of these. Feel free, but

811
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: you know we may have to condense it a little bit.

812
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: And also please let us know if we can use

813
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: your name on the on the show and.

814
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: Get weird with it, you know what I mean. My

815
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: favorite listener mail is still that guy with a uniquely

816
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: infectious laugh. If you're listening, sir, you made my day.

817
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: The truck driver, the kookie truck driver with the Hong

818
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: Kong Yeah.

819
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: Morfect residents, check it out. That's somewhere in the title

820
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: of that episode.

821
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely, as we've said time and time again, you can

822
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 2: also join our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy,

823
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: where you can exchange memes and barbs and and no

824
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: not barbs, definitely polite discourse with your fellow listeners. All

825
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: you got to do is name one of the members

826
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: of the crew of this conspiracy posse, and then you

827
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 2: will find yourself in the door. If you don't want

828
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: to do any of that stuff and you'd rather just

829
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: get in touch with us in an older of fashioned ways,

830
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: you can do so by sending us an email.

831
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

832
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

833
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

834
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.