1 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: High law and order criminal justice system listeners. It's me 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Anna Sega Nicolazzi. We hope you enjoyed season one and 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: I am thrilled to let you know that season two 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: is on the way, with the entire first season now available. 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: We keep getting the questions, is the Mafia still around today? 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: Are the five families still alive and active? And what 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: happened after Joe Messina's conviction. To help answer these questions, 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: I recently sat down with just the right person, Ted Otto, 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: former FBI special agent whose career has been dedicated to 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: combating the New York City mom. 11 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: In the past year or so, I've listened to a 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: lot of this stuff. I'm a podcast junkie. I have 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: to tell you, guys, you really have put together a 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: very very high quality product, and you're to be commended. 15 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: It's really well done. 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. Honestly, there's a lot of moving parts, and 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: I'm certainly happy and proud of what's been going out. 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: But it's really nice to hear it, so thank you. 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: You're welcome. Keep up the good work. 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: So first, let me just get the simple things. I mean, 21 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: your name is much easier than mine, but if you 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: can just say your name, and also when you left 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the bureau where you were within the organization. 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 2: My name is ted Otto, it's Theodore Auto, but that 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: was on the way to the principal's office at Saint 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 2: Barnabas I did the most of the last twenty five 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: years of a thirty four year career working organized crime 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 2: in New York. 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: What year did you leave? 30 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: I've left December thirty first, twenty twenty. 31 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: In this podcast in particular, in this season, we kind 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: of hit from nineteen seventy nine the murder of Carmi Galanti, 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: but even going back before then, up until Joe Messino 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: was victed, we ended about two thousand and five, two 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: thousand and six. Here we are talking twenty years after 36 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: that time. And so really the question is where did 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: the mafia go from there? 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: First? 39 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: Just generally, you know, did it continue to decline? Where 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: is it today? And it's a question that certainly the 41 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: listeners keep coming back with just wanting to get a 42 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: better sense of where it is now. 43 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: And ironically, the answer to your question is actually contained 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: in your early episodes. Literally, from an historical perspective, the 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: American mafia was never more powerful than it was in 46 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: I think it was November of nineteen eighty five the 47 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: Commission indictments. Yep, correct, that case was indicted in November, 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: the convictions were handed. 49 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: Down eighty six. 50 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: Yes, so the night before those indictments were handed up, 51 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: the American mafia was at the apex of its power, 52 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 2: and that case was prosecuted successfully. I'm happy to tell 53 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: you the American mafia has been on a very steady 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: downward trajectory. The effects and impact of the Commission convictions 55 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: never stopped resonating out and they still resonate to this day. 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: And you were primarily in the Gambino squad or was 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: it just a portion of the time that you were 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: focusing on organized crime. 59 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: I from eighty seven through ninety I was on a 60 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: Soviet counterintelligence squad. Great learning experiences like school, a lot 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: of office work, but really really fun stuff. After that, 62 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: I was an undercover agent in an international terrorism case 63 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: for a year. When that case ended, I transferred to 64 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: a violent crime squad in the office that we had 65 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: in Rego Park at the time, the Brooklyn Queen's Office, 66 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: and almost immediately, working with the detective Kathleen Donnelly, we 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: started working this really, really violent group of Bananoasso see 68 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: its in the southeast Bronx area, and they were just 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: a bunch of kids, but they were very, very violent, 70 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: and what we quickly learned is they were showing off. 71 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: They were trying to impress the local Banano family powerhouse, 72 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: Vinnie Bassiano, who as you know, eventually became the boss 73 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: of the family. But this is back in the early nineties. 74 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: Vinnie hadn't been straightened out yet. These knuckleheads, they would 75 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: shoot at each other, They were doing stick ups all 76 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: over the Bronx and Queens carjackings, they were pulling elderly 77 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: women out of Mercedes Benzes. It was just they were 78 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: just bad. But what they were trying to do was 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: catch Vinnie's attention. That crew, and they were probably about 80 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 2: a dozen or fifteen of them. Kathy and I just 81 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: we did the best we could to make as many 82 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: cases as possible because they were so unpredictable and so violent. 83 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 2: That was my first taste of organized crime. From ninety 84 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: one through ninety five. In ninety eight, I returned learn 85 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: to another violent crime squad. There were a lot of experienced, 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 2: older agents on the squad. It was all oc work 87 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: and we just did whatever we wanted. We were constantly 88 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: stepping on toes. We worke Gambino cases, Colombo cases, Luczy cases, 89 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: and it was just a blest and we did really, 90 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: really good work. And then in two thousand and one, 91 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: that squad was in the process of being dissolved or disbanded, 92 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: and my partner, Cindy Peel, and I were then transferred 93 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: to the Gambino Squad in the summer of two thousand 94 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: and one and we worked there on the Gambino family 95 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: until twenty eleven or twelve, and then as the organized 96 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: crime program within the Office and the Bureau was consolidated, 97 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: the Lucas program was transferred to the squad. So I 98 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: finished the last nine or ten years on a squad 99 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: investigating both families, Gambino and Lucazy. 100 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: And so you really kind of dip back in I 101 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: think it was two thousand and one you said, so 102 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: really in the year that nine to eleven happened, and 103 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: obviously we know a lot of resources went understandably and 104 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: out of necessity into terrorism. And what impact did that 105 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: have on the organized crime that had been focused on 106 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: more before that? 107 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: I mean, there was an effect. The effect was felt, 108 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: but it was minimal if you were working cases, and 109 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: any good experienced agent their goal is to not only 110 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: work cases, but you want to work impactful cases. The 111 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: mafia is a big organization. You can't get them all, 112 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 2: but the higher up the food chain you work, the 113 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,679 Speaker 2: more impactful the cases become. And that's the goal. Work 114 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: cases that hit them off as hard as we possibly could. 115 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: So we all understood after September eleventh and in the 116 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: years that followed, that there was going to be a 117 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: realignment within the FBI toward terrorism. Everybody was all for it. 118 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 2: We all grew up here for the most part, we 119 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: all smelled those buildings burning when they were on the ground. 120 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: We all tasted the metal in the air in early September. 121 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: We got it. And I'm reluctant to say we did 122 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: more with less because the changes were made, but they 123 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: weren't really noticeable. The team that I worked on was 124 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: just this confluence of personalities and characters, and we had 125 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: a mission. We worked together, five six seven of us. 126 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: I mean, you know as well as I do that 127 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: probably the most important resource in these types of cases 128 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: is the investigative experience. And as the years went by 129 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: and we all of us, we were working harder and 130 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 2: better and leaner. The experiences made us better agents, which 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: allowed us to do more with less. 132 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: And did you see the type of crime evolve or 133 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: change amongst the families that you got to know so 134 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: well during those investigative years. 135 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: It's and I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted, it's 136 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: a violent organization. I mean, the MOP does not drop 137 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: bodies the way they used to in the seventies, eighties 138 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: and early nineties, but they still kill people, They still 139 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: hurt people. They were still victims out there. And what 140 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: I was always most proud of with the team that 141 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: I was fortunate enough to work on, it was victims 142 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: came first. We kept them updated and in the loop 143 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: to the extent we could while the cases were going on. 144 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: We were victim oriented all the time. One example of 145 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: that is in October of nineteen eighty six, those two 146 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: mafia cops Louis Epolito and Steve Cara Kappa. 147 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: Know it well, know the case, well, yeah. 148 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: They were involved in the kidnapping of a Gambino associate 149 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: from Staten Island but a name of Jimmy Hidell, and 150 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: he met a gruesome fate, tortured to death. I'm reluctant 151 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: to say it because I know the families and it's 152 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: just been an absolutely horrible experience. So that was October 153 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: eighty six, less than twelve years later. The youngest son 154 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: in the family, Frank Heidell. Frank was a bit nerdy. 155 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: He was on a different path. His brother was a 156 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: street guy. But his brother's death had such a profound 157 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: effect on him that he turned to the street. And 158 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: Frank went from this aspiring college student to another mob associate. 159 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: He wasn't built for it. First sign of trouble, he 160 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: started cooperating. He was a source for a couple of years, 161 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: and then pieces were put together. In April twenty eighth 162 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety eight, he was shot and killed outside 163 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: of a bar on Staten Island. That's what drove us. 164 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: Frankie's murder was not he was an FBI source. So 165 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: it's personal. Absolutely, it wasn't. Frankie's murder wasn't the only 166 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: case we had. But you'd meet people in your life, 167 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 2: and in this instance, Frankie's mother, father, and sister, you 168 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: can't promise them anything other than we would do everything 169 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: we could to bring them a sense of justice. Closures. 170 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: I wish I could dispense it. I can't, but we 171 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: made that promise that we would try. It took us 172 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: a number of years to do it. But of the 173 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: maybe twelve or thirteen people involved in that conspiracy, I 174 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: think ten or eleven either were convicted or pled guilty 175 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: to that murder, there was great satisfaction in that. 176 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: I'll tell you there's no case I don't want to 177 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: say more important, because they're all important, but the murder 178 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: of a witness or someone who has been cooperating, I 179 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: think it hits us differently because they're out on a 180 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: limb to a degree, and that is the thing that, 181 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: certainly case like this, that probably caused their death. So 182 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: I understand that feeling, having seen these cases in my 183 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: own office, you know so for you don't read in 184 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: the papers certainly as much about out the mafia, and 185 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: in New York's Five Families in particular, as much as 186 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: you used to. But look, I know the cases are 187 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: still going on. I see them with friends of mine, 188 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: and they're working these cases. And for those that say 189 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: they're pretty much gone, what is your answer to that? 190 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: When asked about where the mafia is presently? 191 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: So over the years, Citty and I had a lot 192 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: of trial experience. I know you had a considerable amount more. 193 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: But in the federal system, for agents to have fifteen 194 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: trials is a lot. 195 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: That is a lot. 196 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: We had fifteen trials, yep. But over the years, especially 197 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: during trial prep, the days of trial, you know, the drill, 198 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 2: we would get newer agents from the applicant squad or 199 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: newer agents assigned to our squad, and from time to 200 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: time you get that frown expression, it's what's the matter, 201 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: and it's well. I was speaking to someone I met 202 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: the other day and they asked me what I did. 203 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 2: I told them and they were really excited, full of questions. 204 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: Then they asked me what I did in the FBI, 205 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: and I said, worked the mafia. And they looked at 206 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 2: me in disbelief and said, to mafia, they're still around. 207 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: And I would invariably say, well, maybe we should all 208 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: just pat ourselves on the back, go back to the 209 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: generation before us and the generation before us. You know, 210 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: it might not be the most pleasant compliment you're going 211 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: to get, but it's a compliment nonetheless that we're on 212 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: top of this, we're winning this. Eventually, the American mafia 213 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: will no longer exist. It's not going to happen anytime soon. 214 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: But if this agent or that agent had twenty years 215 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: ahead of them in their career or twenty five, maybe 216 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 2: they'll be around when somebody gets to stick a fork 217 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 2: in the mob. It's going to happen. 218 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: It was interesting. I'm trying to remember who it was 219 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: that we spoke to for the season. It may have 220 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: been Jack Steubing, but someone said, don't make the mistake 221 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: turning the other cheek because they're gone, right, Because as 222 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: long as there's money, the mob will be there in 223 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: some form because they want that money. That is why 224 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: they exist. And do you subscribe to that same thinking, 225 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: like don't turn a blind eye because they're not as prevalent, 226 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: because good work has been done, they will grow again, 227 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,599 Speaker 1: or do you think they're just petering out somewhat. 228 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: I think the answer is both. And you could look 229 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 2: at the Banano family and the Colombo family as prime examples. 230 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: If you start with the Colombo family going back, one 231 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: of the hallmarks of that family is they're always fighting. 232 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,719 Speaker 2: They're always shooting at each other, you know, the Colombo War. 233 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: We have to be more specific, which Colombo War, The 234 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 2: Colombo War, Colombo War or the Prafacci War or the 235 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: Gallow War, and the Colombo Squad was there. They had 236 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: some very very talented ages on the squad who sees 237 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,359 Speaker 2: the opportunity and that family has been prosecuted close to oblivion. 238 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: And if you look at the leadership over the past 239 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: fifteen or twenty years, every six months there's a new 240 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: acting boss and then a week after their name the 241 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: acting boss, somebody from that squad is locking them up. 242 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: The Bonano family, they were left for dead in the 243 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: early nineties after they had been stripped of a commissioned 244 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: seat Gallant. They had been killed in the late seventies. 245 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: Rastelli was the boss in prison and Messino was sizing 246 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: up the family. But at the time the FBI foolishly 247 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: and the US Attorney's Office foolishly just took their eye 248 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: off them. I think, as you guys rightly pointed out 249 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: in your last several episodes, they came back with a 250 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: vengeance and then they were dispatched once again. And that family, 251 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: too is in total disarray. 252 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: And what about today? Have they evolved with the type 253 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: of crime I'm the internet technology or is it really 254 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: a lot of still that back room loan sharking, person 255 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: to person crime that has been really the bread and 256 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: butter in the past. 257 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: Anyway, this is the unsatisfying part of my answer. You 258 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: come into the FBI with an expiration data in your 259 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: rear end, and I reached mine. I would have stayed 260 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: there forever and worked for free. That's how much fun 261 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: we had. And the case that we were working when 262 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: I retired, which I think is still ongoing, was the 263 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: most interesting case I ever worked. What's unsatisfying is that's 264 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: pretty much all I can say about it. 265 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: Right, No, No, of course, I don't want to risk the case. 266 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: But it was like, I'm not going to say international 267 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: in scope, I'll say global in scope. This isn't some 268 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: second cousin from Sicily, although those cases exist as well. 269 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: This is something that was occurring all over the world 270 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: and it was absolutely fascinating. Maybe one day, when the 271 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: cases is judicated, we'll have another conversation. 272 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: I don't know why this came into my head right now, 273 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: and I'm really going sideways, but it's always been interesting 274 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: to me. Is that we focus on for this podcast. 275 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: We're talking about the Italian MAFI, but we know there 276 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: are other ethnic organized crime organizations as well, and in 277 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: your experience, how much cross pollination is there? 278 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: You know? 279 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: For example, you know, we've certainly saw being in Brooklyn. 280 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: You had the Albanian gangs, you had Russian gangs, you 281 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: had other They were very organizer, making a lot of money. 282 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: They're not street gangs. But do they all really stay 283 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: to themselves based on that commonality of ethnicity or did 284 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: you see working together these different organized crime groups in 285 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: New York. 286 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: I think the short answer to your question is they 287 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: do work together, And the more involved answer is groups 288 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: like the Balkan organized crime. I'm reluctant to say much 289 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 2: about Russian I will see because I don't really know 290 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: much about it, but Albanian organ and ie crime they 291 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: do to an extent. They exist as their own entity. 292 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: But at least in our experience with Balkans and especially Albanians, 293 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: it's just there's almost like this aspiration on their part 294 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 2: to rub elbows with the Italians so they can exist 295 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: in their own smaller criminal enterprises. But the overlap association 296 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: wise with the Italians is considerable. 297 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: That's interesting. So really, within the various criminal groups, there 298 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: is this at least an appearance of a hierarchy, with 299 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: the Italians remaining towards the top. 300 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's like a formal hierarchy, but. 301 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: It's just the perception maybe exactly. 302 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: And it's listen, good bet or and different. I'll go 303 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: with bed. The Italian mafia has crept into American culture. 304 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 2: It's a part of contemporary American history and certainly looms 305 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: large in contemporary American culture. 306 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: And have you seen the other organizations grow with time? 307 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 1: You know, have they taken some of the place of 308 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: the role that the Italian mafia has had, or have 309 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: they all just really worked side by side to. 310 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: The extent they worked side by side. I don't want 311 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: to mislead you into believing that these Balkans or Serbians 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: or Albanians are asking permission. They're playing through one way 313 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: or the other. But they do gravitate towards I guess 314 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: their older brothers on the street. But the Italians were 315 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: here first in the early part of the twentieth century. 316 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: They elbowed everyone out of the way. And think about 317 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: what the commission was. It was remarkable in and of 318 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: itself that you had a twenty seven member of thirty 319 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: member board of directors, but only five of those members 320 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: had voting rights, and they agreed to it, and it 321 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: held them up together for the better part of fifty years. 322 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: In a perverse way, it's impressive. 323 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: Think that organized crime impacts the everyday citizen today. We 324 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: know that in the past. We talked multiple times with 325 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: different people about it really touched every person in New 326 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: York City for a time, every bit of construction, all 327 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: the windows. And while we don't have that today, how 328 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: do you think the everyday person, at least some of 329 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: them are still impacted, or maybe they're not. 330 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: No, they are impacted, but thankfully to a far lesser 331 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: degree than ever before. And if you'd like to talk construction, 332 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 2: it's the result of thirty or forty years of really 333 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: hard work that ran them out well. It minimized their 334 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: impact in the construction industry and has largely eliminated their 335 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: influence within labor unions. But the last significant Lukesey case 336 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: that I was involved in with my team there was 337 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: homicide drug dealing. It was a lot and one of 338 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: the four elements of that case was construction. And the 339 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: Lucas's and the Genovies were always better at construction rackets. 340 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: They had the connections. They had the developers, they had 341 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: the brand name contractors in their pockets. But in that indictment, 342 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: probably the most significant construction charge we had. It was 343 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: a state and federal funded project to construct an ambulatory 344 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: care clinic. It brought us Lebanon Hospital off of the 345 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: Grand Concourse, and it's an underserved community. I suppose, like 346 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: if you wake up in the middle of the night 347 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: and your infant is not well, you've got a helicab 348 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 2: and get down to Lincoln Hospital or get over to 349 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 2: Jacobi or miser Recordia. It's an effort. So Bronx Lebanon 350 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: was building out this clinic and the Lukeesy family saw 351 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: it coming from a mile away. Their rackets were in place, 352 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 2: their infrastructure was in place, and this two year project, 353 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: which was supposed to cost twenty six million, took five 354 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 2: and a half or six years at a cost of 355 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: well over fifty million dollars. And the victims are there. 356 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: There's money that's been swindled and extorted. And in that 357 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 2: three or four year period of time, you had an 358 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: entire neighborhood or part of the Bronx that was left 359 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: without access to an emergency room. 360 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: And that is I think a perfect example when you 361 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: think about it, for just every reason you said it. 362 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: You have a health care facility, right, it is something 363 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: that each one of us as citizens should have access to. 364 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: And here for greed and illegal gain, they are overcharging, 365 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: holding things up, and really the people that are suffering 366 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: are the people in those neighborhoods that need that facility 367 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: most and probably may not have the means to get 368 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: themselves somewhere else. 369 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: And on that conspiracy, the Lucases were so good, and 370 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: it was the underboss, Stephen Krea, who was really good 371 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: at it, ultimately convicted for it, but they were so 372 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: good at it. They had both ends of the deal covered. 373 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: You know when a construction project you have the contractor 374 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: and the owner. Right, yep, they had both. They had 375 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: the owner of the hospital literally the hospitals. The hospital 376 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: was in bed with them. They had both ends covered 377 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: and they were eating off of both sides of the table, 378 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: so to speak. And again they couldn't care less who 379 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: lives in this neighborhood. Who the heck cares? Let them 380 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: deal with it. If they have to help, you know, 381 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: go find a livery cap. They get down the concourse 382 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: that it didn't it was of absolutely no concern to them. 383 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: If there's money to be made here, there's money to steal, 384 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: and we're going to put our hands in both pockets here, 385 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 2: and they did. They did it well, but thankfully it 386 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 2: caught up with them. 387 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: What areas of crime in the more recent years, did 388 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: you see that organized crime either continued with or maybe 389 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: new avenues. 390 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 2: Without going into a lot of detail, and it's stating 391 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 2: what is obvious, the role that at least one of 392 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: the five families plays in international drug trafficking is stunning. 393 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: In the world of trafficking. If you're a drug dealer 394 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 2: and you can access a complete kilo of cocaine, you're 395 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: in a stratosphere. You were so far above street level 396 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: stuff that's one kilo. If you can bundle twenty kilows, 397 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: you're a big marka. You're a trafficker. What this scheme 398 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: involved was trafficking cocaine on an industrial scale, like mind 399 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 2: blowing amounts of coke, mind blowing. That's one of the 400 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 2: aspects that really grabbed our attention, specifically my attention as 401 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 2: I was heading out the. 402 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: Door, that the drug trade was alive and well. When 403 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: it came to organized crime, which and again we talk 404 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: about all there's money to be made, but each kilo 405 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: that's there, everything, well, that's going to go to a 406 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: user and it goes out from there. And as we 407 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: know with the narcotics trade, it's not just the people using, 408 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: but there's a lot of crime that surrounds it as well. 409 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: Right, And I guess the big picture conversation here is 410 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 2: what's happening to the mob. And one of the litany 411 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: of reasons the Mob is just at tridded down to 412 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: where it's at now is you need listen no further 413 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: than your last episode when the boss of a family 414 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: Joe Messino, when he stands up, goes to trial and 415 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 2: essentially has a life sentence or worse, staring him in 416 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 2: the face on his way out of the courtroom, says 417 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: I'd like to I'd like to talk to you when 418 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: a boss does that, Like, what kind of an imbecile 419 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 2: would sign on to choose a career path in the 420 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: mob where everyone's going to give me possibly give me up, 421 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: including the boss who's giving me the orders. Like that 422 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: level of hypocrisy is just mind blowing. But getting back 423 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: to where we started, and you mentioned drug trafficking. If 424 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: you ask any mobster this story about their induction ceremony. 425 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: After you're inducted, you are introduced to the people in 426 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: the room. Okay, got that, and then sit down. Here 427 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 2: are the rules. Rule number one no drug trafficking. Oh okay. 428 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 2: If you go back to where you guys started in 429 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 2: your podcast. The seminal event in the history of the 430 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: Mob Commission, aside from the prosecution, was that conference up 431 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: in that famous get together that. 432 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: The apple aakan. 433 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: Yes, the Appalachian Conference took place, and I think it 434 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: was November of nineteen fifty seven, one month before the 435 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: seminal meeting occurred at the Grand Hotel des Palmas in Palermo, 436 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: and that's where the Sicilian goes in Ustra and American mafia. 437 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: That's where they laid out the future of their heroin 438 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: trafficking trade. It was one month before that Commission meeting, 439 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: where of course among the rules, chief among the rules 440 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: are no drug trafficking. Yeah, sure, okay. The level of 441 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: hipocrisy is laughable and it's one of the things that 442 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: has led the mafia, the American mob, to the point 443 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: where it's at right now, which is what really just 444 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: worn down. It's still there there are still five discreet families. Still, 445 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: it's one hundred year old criminal enterprise dedicated exclusively to 446 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 2: committing crimes. There's no good side of the mob. There's 447 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: nothing good about it. It's just all crime, all the time. 448 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: But it's on its way out, and I can only 449 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 2: hope and pray that whether it's twenty years or forty years, 450 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 2: there's some I don't know, a bunch of agents and 451 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 2: prosecutors in junior high school right now, who forty years 452 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: from now will have a conversation with you. 453 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: And describe the actual end, right, the actual end. As 454 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: you're saying that was like, there's so many different types 455 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: of crime that I would give anything to just hear 456 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: that conversation, right, I mean, so many different types of crime. 457 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: We wish we could finally put an end to it. 458 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: But I think for various reasons. You know, you talk 459 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: about homicide, the various motives that people commit those crimes. 460 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: There's old as time, so it doesn't go away with 461 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: the mob. They're motivated by money, so when there's money 462 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: to be made, they somehow continue to rise to the surface, 463 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: although it's harder to get to the top, it seems. 464 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: And again I'm certainly no expert, but just by talking 465 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: to all of you who are, it just seems to 466 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: be the more you clamp down, you can harness it. 467 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: But you least so far, it continues to seep somewhere. 468 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just you need I don't know the rapture, 469 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: its crime's not going anywhere, but the structure that the 470 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: mafia represents, that's what's going to go. The organization, that 471 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 2: cohesion that it provides its members. Eventually that'll be gone. 472 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: With what you just said, Ted, I mean both from 473 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: the beginning you gave some specifics, but also because that 474 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: is the legitimate answer, is that while it's been very 475 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: successfu we've been very successful being lawn for horse meant 476 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: it's like combating crime, and if we actually had the answer, 477 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: we would have done it on so many different levels. 478 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: But it's just keep fighting the good fight, you know, 479 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: and hoping that whether it's technology, resources or something that 480 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: someone comes up with that how amazing would it be 481 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: if we could actually put an end to it, And 482 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: certainly here we're talking about organized crime, no less in 483 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: other areas, it would just be a great thing. 484 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be confined to the dustbin of history. With 485 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: the Roman Empire or where you know you name it. 486 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: There are plenty of objects to look at in that 487 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: dustbind and this will be one of them. 488 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: Thank you to Ted for sharing his time and expertise 489 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: with us. If you haven't already, you can listen to 490 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: the entire first season of Law and Order Criminal Justice 491 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: System wherever you get your podcasts, and remember season two 492 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: is coming soon. Follow Wolf Entertainment, iHeart Podcasts, and me 493 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 1: Ana Sega Nicolasi on social media to stay updated and 494 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: be the first to know when the new season drops.