1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine. Ay, fam Today on the bright Side, prepare 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: to have your mind blown. Okay, we are talking to 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: author and evolutionary biology expert Cap Bohannan. She's sharing how 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: two hundred million years of evolution have unleashed the superpowers 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: of the female body. 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: Ooh, I'm ready. Okay, It's Wednesday, January fifteenth. 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: I'm Danielle Robe and I'm Simone Boyce and this is 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: the bright Side from Hello Sunshine. We've got such a 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: great show for all of you today. I am so 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: excited for this one because I'm a huge science nerd, 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: so I am ready to geek out all about two 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: hundred million years of evolutionary biology and really how that 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: journey has made us all into the badass women that 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: we are today. Well, our guest today is Cap Bohannon. 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: She's an author and expert in evolution who has been 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: boring over two hundred million years of research about female 17 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: mammals and she's uncovered some pretty surprising and lesser known 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: superpowers of the female body. 19 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So, if you've ever wondered about your body shape, 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 2: or you've been curious about the benefits of breastfeeding, or 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: maybe you thought I think I hear way better than 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: my husband does, or my boyfriend does, or my father does. 23 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: There actually may be a scientific or evolutionary reason for it. 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: You know, one of my favorite things about Kat's work 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: is that she really tries to correct scientific bias. So 26 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: today one of my goals is to try and dispel 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: myths about women's bodies that we've been taught. Is there 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,919 Speaker 2: anything in particular you're curious about today. 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: I'm really curious about the really early stuff, the hunter 30 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: gatherer stuff, because I think that, like you were saying, 31 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: we have been conditioned to believe a lot of myths 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: about our bodies and about like our purpose, especially in 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: an early evolutionary context. But I think there's a lot 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: more context that we are missing there, So I'm excited 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: to learn more about that as well as women as mothers. 36 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm really curious just about how the whole birthing journey 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: has evolved since our earliest days on this earth. 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's a reason that her book is 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: titled Eve Right, The First Woman. I mean, it's just 40 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: a comprehensive must read for anybody interested in gender studies 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: or biology or the untold stories of women's contributions to 42 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: humanity's survival and success. 43 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she named it so well. It's called 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: Eve How the female body drove two hundred million years 45 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: of evolution? And Danielle's right, you guys, it's going to 46 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: blow your mind. It is full of surprising facts that 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: will make you sound super smart at your next dinner party. 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: And the YA edition of her book is set to 49 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: come out next month on February twenty fifth. If you 50 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: want to read it with your daughter or a special 51 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: teenager in your life, all right, let's go ahead and 52 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: bring her in. Kat Bohannon, Welcome to the bright Side. 53 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 54 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: Your book is an incredible look at evolution. And you 55 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: spent a decade researching mammals with a focus on the 56 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: female body. Now we're talking about two hundred million years 57 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: worth of data from multiple species. What in the world 58 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: made you take this on? 59 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: Oh man? 60 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: What made me take it on was actually a night 61 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: of drinking, which is fine, I mean, if we're being. 62 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: So honest, Yeah, night of drinking probably, yeah, definitely. Well 63 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: aademic I mean so right. 64 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: So it was me and a bunch of neuropostdocs at Columbia, right, 65 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: and we're passing a bottle in this unfinished lab they 66 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: were building at Columbia, and we were talking about our days, 67 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: and this friend of mine was a postdoc and he 68 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: had to present his work that day. And the thing 69 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 3: is is that the thing that he and his boss 70 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: had been wanting to look at the results weren't all 71 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 3: that interesting. But what this guy was telling me, as 72 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 3: I'm literally swigging a bottle, right, is that for once 73 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 3: he had rats of both male and female bodies, both 74 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 3: male and female, and the sex differences data was huge. 75 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 3: But the postdoc was like, I can't do this now 76 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: because my boss thinks this is an interesting and I 77 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 3: know that I'm the only one looking at sex differences 78 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: here and how these neurons work, and so I guess 79 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: this is now my side gig right, So I'm getting 80 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 3: increasingly drunk. But this is actually the first moment I 81 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: ever learned that the female body was understudied. And that's 82 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 3: the moment I found out it was a thing. And 83 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: oh man, it's such a thing. It's such a thing. 84 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: The female body is so radically understudied. But we are, 85 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: thanks to that guy and a lot of other really 86 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: smart scientists, starting to change that. 87 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: Can I ask why does the medical and academic community 88 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: why do they hate us? Like, why do they why 89 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: do they overlook us? 90 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: So, first of all, definitely don't find a stronger concentration 91 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: of hatin us, US with the ovaries in that population 92 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: versus just about any other except for like the actual 93 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: manisphere online, like there's a strong concentration of hate there. 94 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 3: But in academia, no, they don't hate us at all. 95 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: It's more like on the science side of things, it 96 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 3: was sort of like good science running uk, right, because 97 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: you had this thing that happens in female mammals which 98 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: is estrous and you and I might call it the 99 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 3: menstrual cycle, Like we cycle through these hormones that have 100 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: this cascade up and down, you know, over time in 101 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 3: every species that we study that are mammals. Okay, so 102 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 3: if you're female, that's a thing for a scientist, that's 103 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 3: a confound it's a complication. Easiest way to control for it, weirdly, 104 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 3: was just not studying females, which we thought was fine, 105 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: which turned out to totally not be fine. 106 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: Okay. 107 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: Then there was also a problem for a long time 108 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: in human clinical trials. Unfortunately, for a very long time 109 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: it was against the rules to include females of reproductive 110 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 3: age in clinical trials because we were afraid of like 111 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: screwing up babies. Basically, we're afraid you might get pregnant, 112 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 3: even if you're not pregnant. Now you might eventually get 113 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: pregnant or they're it might be a pregnancy, and so now, bah, 114 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 3: let's not do that. We change the rules in the 115 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 3: nineties because unfortunately what that meant is for decades we 116 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: weren't having any women being tested for new drugs coming 117 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: on the market. It was a problem. We've started to 118 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 3: correct that. We're starting to see how maybe we should 119 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 3: have corrected that, but it's still true that like women 120 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: are only about twenty two percent of all clinical trials suggets, 121 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: which is not our portion of the population. Like we're 122 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: very low, so low, so you know, things to work on, right, 123 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: The good news is we're starting to correct that, but 124 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,119 Speaker 3: it's a big gap to fill. 125 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: Well when it comes to women being understudied when new 126 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: drugs are coming out on the market. You've highlighted that 127 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: car crash data actually helped us better understand the differences 128 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: between the ways that men and women metabolize certain drugs 129 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: like ambient. Can you elaborate on that. 130 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: Oh man, Okay, so it turns out women are forty 131 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: percent more likely to be diagnosed with sleep disorders at 132 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: some point in our lives. Don't know what would be 133 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: keeping us up at night. We have it all. 134 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, fine, you know, yeah, obviously you're a scientist, 135 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: author and comedian. I just have to put that in there. 136 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 3: If we can't laugh at our bodies, what the heck 137 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: are we doing? 138 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: Oh man? 139 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: So, the most common drug for when you have inzombnia, 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: if you're going to get prescribed something, is probably going 141 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 3: to be ambient. Unfortunately, it turned out that female patients 142 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: who had taken ambient the night before were more likely 143 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: to get in a car crash the next morning, you know, 144 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: like on their way to work than male patients, because 145 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 3: the slope at which the drugs effects left their system 146 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 3: was a bit different than it was in the male 147 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: And we didn't know that for a long time because 148 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 3: we hadn't properly tested it for sex differences when it 149 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 3: first came out. We finally changed the rules. You're supposed 150 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: to have about half the dose if you've got ovaries. 151 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: But when we change the rules, it had been in 152 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 3: the market for twenty one years, so I think we 153 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 3: can do better. 154 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: Well, this really points to how high the stakes are here. 155 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: This is not just you know, oh, women are sad 156 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: because we're not included in medical studies. No, we are 157 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: actually dying because you're overlooking us. And this discovery about 158 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: ambient this is not the only instance of that where 159 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: we've learned years later after the fact how these drugs 160 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: are impacting women differently. Opioid's was somewhat similar. Would you 161 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: tell us about that one? 162 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So opioid drugs, these are this controlled class of 163 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: drugs that help relieve your pain, and that especially matters 164 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 3: for women all for all kinds of reasons. For one, 165 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: we have more chronic pain disorders, so that's a thing. 166 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 3: But it also matters because you know, women's pain matters. 167 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 3: You might have heard of the opioid crisis. They can 168 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 3: also be in many bodies, very addictive. 169 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: So the thing is is. 170 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: That opioid drugs were now learning through retrospective data by 171 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 3: looking back at what happened after they were already on 172 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: the market. They're metabolized in female bodies a bit differently. 173 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: Female patients tend to need a little bit more of 174 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 3: the same drug if it's an opioid, to have the 175 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 3: same subjective pain relief. Right, And that's a problem for 176 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: addiction because if you are told take this amount of 177 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 3: a drug, regardless of your male or female, and do 178 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 3: it this often, if you're having that feeling like your 179 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: pain's coming back sooner than when you're supposed to take 180 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: it again, then you have to suddenly make this own, 181 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: this choice on your own right. You have to decide 182 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 3: do I break the rules and take it sooner. Do 183 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 3: I trust my doctor still to take my pain seriously. 184 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: Female pain is often taken less seriously and clinic. There's 185 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 3: been studies on this. It's a right. So that becomes 186 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: this unique path of addiction, right for a female patient 187 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: where she's having to make choices that she shouldn't have 188 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: to make. And it's not because her doctor was trying 189 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 3: to neglect her. It's because the doctor wasn't working with 190 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: enough information about how it's different for female patients. 191 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: Kat I love that your book gives us the science 192 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: and the history and so much of the way that 193 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: we understand evolution is through a male point of view. 194 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: But you've discovered some myths to the ways that we 195 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 2: perceive human development. This one really stuck out to me. 196 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: History would have us believe that men led the charge 197 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: in hunting and toolmaking, but you've discovered otherwise. 198 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 3: I discovered some really good arguments for probably otherwise didn't 199 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 3: have a time machine. But you know what, all those 200 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: boys telling the man stories didn't either. So we're on 201 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 3: the same page. We're looking at the same data. And 202 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: the data I'm looking at tells me that a lot 203 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: of tool use is super super super a female story 204 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 3: even in other primates. Like right now, okay, somewhere in 205 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: a number of different places in Africa, a chimpanzee female 206 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 3: is out there hunting with an actual spear. She made 207 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 3: a spear, right, So she took a branch off of 208 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 3: a tree, ripped it off like a little sapling, chewed 209 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 3: it down to a point with her teeth, and she's 210 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 3: out there hunting for actual meat right now. This isn't 211 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: like deep human pass right now, and she's actually hunting 212 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 3: really adorable little things called bush babies that are primates. 213 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: Don't look it up online, you'll be sad. But she 214 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 3: eats those, okay, But she's doing that with like probably 215 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 3: an offspring on her back and The reason she's using 216 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 3: that spear is because while that bush baby, that tiny 217 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 3: little monkey thing that she's looking forward to having for lunch, 218 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: it can't kill her. It could bite her and cause 219 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 3: an infection, or it could bite her baby, and that 220 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 3: could be a problem, right, So better to keep it 221 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 3: at that distance. Put a pointy thing between your body 222 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: and the thing that could harm you. Females are often 223 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: the innovators because they need to be, because especially for primates, 224 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: and we're a primates, we're primates, we are apes, right 225 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: for primates, we're often primary caretakers, so we have to 226 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: make sure that both our bodies and also anybodies were 227 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 3: responsible for don't get harmed. So the hunting story, the 228 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 3: tool using hunting story, you know with the spears', that's 229 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 3: often a female thing. 230 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: Wow, females are the innovators because they need to be. 231 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: That is so true and empowering. 232 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: We're taking a short break, but we'll be right back 233 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: with Cat Bohannan. We're back with Cat Bohannan. When it 234 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: comes to these evolutionary changes, at what point in the 235 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 2: two hundred million year timeline that you studied do you 236 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: see the biggest advancements? 237 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 3: Oh, deep time is such a weird thing. I mean, 238 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: we say these words two hundred million years and that's 239 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 3: literally under the feet of dinosaurs. It's kind of hard 240 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 3: to wrap your head around, right, and our species is 241 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: only three hundred thousand years, So I mean, your big 242 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 3: evolutionary leaps are going to be like, you know, the 243 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 3: difference between we were still laying eggs for a long 244 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 3: time while making milk, and then we stopped laying eggs 245 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: and started having live birth. And then there was that 246 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 3: time where we started being primate like things in the trees, 247 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 3: which was a very long time, and then a long 248 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 3: time again where most primates still living in trees, but 249 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 3: some of us came down from the trees, became bipedal 250 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: and started walking around. So I think all of these 251 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 3: are huge leaps, and they're happening at really different scales 252 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: of time, which is weird to think about, but also 253 00:13:55,520 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 3: kind of cool because for me, it reminds me that 254 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 3: our bodies are really old and really new at the 255 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: same time. 256 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: Are there any other pivotal evolutionary breakthroughs that you can 257 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: potentially or probably a tribute to women that you think 258 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: are interesting. 259 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, just that our species exists pretty much that. What 260 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 3: do you mean, Like, literally, these are the bodies where 261 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: this thing I'm pointing at. You may not see me 262 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 3: for your podcast people, but like this female woin, this 263 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: female body is where evolution happens. This is how generations happen, 264 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: This is how things get passed on over time. So 265 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: also that, but not simply the fact that we give birth, 266 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: but the fact that our species has a really hard 267 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 3: time giving birth compared to other primates. Our pregnancies, our birds, 268 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 3: and our postpartum recoveries are like quantifiably longer and harder 269 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: and more prone to crippling complications than they are for 270 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 3: like almost to any other mammal. Like it actually scientifically 271 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 3: sucks for us the way we make babies. It does. 272 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 3: But gynecology is awesome. Now I'm not talking about the 273 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 3: like super problematic history of American gynecology, Okay, I'm talking 274 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: about like the very long evolved history of midwiffery, the 275 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 3: very long evolved history of the fact that we as 276 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 3: a species are the only ones that help each other 277 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,119 Speaker 3: give birth. We're the only ones that do that because 278 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: we evolve to be cooperative, and we evolve to help 279 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: each other, and we evolve to share knowledge around this 280 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 3: difficult thing that we have to do. That's why we're here, ma'am, 281 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 3: which is not the story they usually tell you at 282 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: the Natural history museums. 283 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: Can I go back to what you mentioned about our 284 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: births as humans being more painful and just overall awful, 285 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: not that I have any experience with this. Now it's chillum, Yeah, 286 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: why is that? 287 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: Like? 288 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Why us? 289 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 3: One of the reasons has to do with our actual 290 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 3: arrangement of our hip bones. Right. This theory is called 291 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: the obstetric dilemma. But basically it's that, like we used 292 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: to move on four limbs, right, and then for a 293 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: variety of reasons where like actually maybe two limbs, though, 294 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: let's actually have legs and like this giant butt muscle 295 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: to hold us up. But to do that, evolution produced 296 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: a different pelvic shape, right. It tilted our hip bones 297 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: and our overall pelvic bowl in a way that made 298 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: us more like gravity stable, so we wouldn't fall over 299 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 3: all the time, right. But also it narrowed the opening 300 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 3: at the bottom of that bowl, which is where our 301 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: babies come out. And that started happening right before our 302 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: heads started getting really big. So at this point we're 303 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 3: trying to squeeze like a watermelon out of a lemon 304 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 3: sized hole, you know, So if you've met fruit like 305 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: that's that's just like a structural problem, right. The other 306 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: big deal, actually, which is way more of a problem 307 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: even than that, is that our placentas are really greedy. 308 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: So a placenta, for those of your listeners who don't know, 309 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 3: it's kind of like a fleshy docking station. It's where 310 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: the umbilical cord attaches to the uterine wall. It's how 311 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 3: the baby gets basically everything from you. If you're a 312 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 3: person who's pregnant. Okay, So our placenta is actually really 313 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: what's medically called invasive, Like it penetrates the mother's bloodstream, 314 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 3: which then means that it really is interfering with her 315 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 3: immune systems. It's manipulating her blood Pressure's there's no part 316 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 3: of you that isn't pregnant. If you're a person who's pregnant. Yeah, yeah, 317 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 3: it's not just your uterus, it's all of you. Right, 318 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: It's rigorous, it's challenging. The metabolic costs of a human 319 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: pregnancy have been compared to running many ultra marathons in 320 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 3: a row, not just like a few, but just like 321 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 3: a lot of them. It's been compared to Olympic convents. 322 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 3: It's been like we run out of metaphors because it's 323 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 3: the most metabolically taxing thing a human body can actually do. 324 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: So we're all Olympic medal you super are? 325 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, if you are a person who has been pregnant, 326 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 3: you are already a damn athlete. Okay, so just give 327 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: yourself some cred there, because seriously, seriously, so. 328 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: What I love about your work, kat is is that 329 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: it really highlights so many of the superpowers that were 330 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: just innately imbued with as women. So I want to 331 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: get into some of that. I know that there's a 332 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: really cool one involving breast milk. I'd love for you 333 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: to tell us about it. 334 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 3: Oh man, Yeah, let me first say this is really 335 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: really important. You can be a child free person and 336 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean you are failing your evolutionary freaking destiny, okay, 337 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 3: because they're actually we are actually a species that has 338 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 3: evolved to work with one another and have many different 339 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: roles in supporting societies that we live in from ancient times, 340 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: including not having our own children. Okay, so you are 341 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 3: functional and great even if you never have kids. All right, now, 342 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 3: I'm going to talk a lot about kids though. Okay, 343 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 3: So milk one of the first things to evolve in mammals. 344 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 3: Once mammals have nipples, we have this crazy new it's 345 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 3: kind of like a communication technology. Okay. So if you 346 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: are a newborn and you are learning how to suckle, 347 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: so if you're any good at it, you are latching on, 348 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 3: which is basically you're forming a docking seal. You're wrapping 349 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 3: your lips around this whole aerial situation, and you are 350 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 3: forming a vacuum in your mouth because you've sealed it right, 351 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 3: your lips around the nipple. Okay, Once you have a vacuum, though, 352 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 3: what you have is this thing called the upsuck, and 353 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: that means that you are forming this vacuum by sucking 354 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 3: in your cheeks, like you're taking this space and you're 355 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 3: condensing it right, and it's pulling the milk out. So 356 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 3: you're forming a tide though, because you're not constantly suckling, 357 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: you're doing suck suck swallow. Sucks sucks swallow. So if 358 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 3: you've ever seen a diagram of how tides work, you've 359 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: got the wave of milk coming in over the top 360 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 3: of the thing, but then you have an undertoe, so 361 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: the baby's spit, your spit is being sucked back up 362 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 3: into your mom's boob through her nipple, where it then 363 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 3: distributes throughout the entirety of the breast along all of 364 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 3: those milk tubes you know where it's red like some 365 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: kind of weird ancient code. And what it does is 366 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 3: it changes the milk to suit. So if you're sick, 367 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: if the baby is sick, the milk changes. It changes 368 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 3: by lots of different measures. It sends more amuno agents 369 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 3: down to like help your young immune system fight off 370 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 3: that cold you've got now with all of your snot 371 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 3: and what have you. Okay, it's also sending down hormonal 372 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: signals to help soothe you, help you sleep better. It's 373 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 3: doing a lot of stuff. So like a nipple, weirdly 374 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 3: is a two way communication platform. I mean, a parent 375 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 3: an offspring. 376 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: Breastfeeding really is miraculous. Yeah, that's one of my favorite 377 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: breastfeeding facts. Thank you so much for sharing that. We've 378 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: got to take one more break, but keep those booty seated. 379 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 1: We'll be back soon with more from cap Ohannan. And 380 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: we're back. 381 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: You've looked into how women's body shapes have evolutionary benefits, 382 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 2: you actually make the case for having and if I'm 383 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 2: not mistaken, the technical term here is a big booty. 384 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: Can you break that down for us? 385 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 3: Your butt is a thing, specifically the fat that booty. 386 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 3: The booty seems to store special kinds of lipids differently 387 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 3: than other parts of your body. If you're a female person, 388 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 3: I'll give you the technical term. They're long chain pobbly 389 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 3: unsaturated fatty acids or LCPUFAs. But I think i'll make 390 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: a three think like fish oil. It's basically that kind 391 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 3: of stuff, and our bodies are bad at making it 392 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: from smaller parts, like stitching those long chains together, so 393 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: we get it mostly from our diet, already made, and 394 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 3: then store it and weirdly, our butts store more of 395 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: it than other fat depots on our body. And it 396 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 3: does turn out that that stuff is really important for 397 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 3: making baby brains and retinas. So the at of post 398 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 3: tissue on your butt and actually your upper thighs and 399 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: your hips seems to be metabolically protected. Sort of first 400 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 3: place to gain, last place to lose for a lot 401 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 3: of your life. Okay, unless you are in the third 402 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 3: trimester of a pregnancy, and or you are breastfeeding, then 403 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 3: it's like the kid has a crazy straw straight to 404 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 3: your ass and is just hoovering the stuff into itself. Right, 405 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 3: And so there are a number of people now who think, 406 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 3: number of scientists who think, maybe that's why maybe we 407 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 3: evolve to store this stuff that we need that we're 408 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: bad at mai from other parts, because we needed it 409 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: to make our stupidly huge human brains and human retinas. 410 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: So in other words, it's not like does this dress 411 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 3: make my ass look fat? It's does this dress make 412 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 3: my ass look smart? 413 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: I love you so much. You're just frivolous. This is 414 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: the best. It's just you're incredible. It was it was 415 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: a dream. It was a dream. And I hope that 416 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: every female rapper now incorporates lcpofas into their next song 417 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: if I got that. 418 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: Right, smart ass booty. 419 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: Seriously, though, I also understand that women have stronger senses 420 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: of smell, taste, hearing. What's the science behind that. 421 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 3: For most of the senses? Weirdly female mammals, but humans too, 422 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 3: you know, seem to be better at most of them, 423 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 3: like by a lot of measures, Like we are better 424 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 3: at smell for most of our life. So you're not crazy. 425 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 3: You do smell that one smell in that room that 426 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 3: the dude you're with cannot smell at all, And it's 427 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: probably a sex based difference. You are probably slightly better 428 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 3: at detecting these faint scents and figuring out what they are. 429 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 3: We don't entirely know why, we know that it's true 430 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 3: also our hearing. This got to me on kind of 431 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 3: like a personal level. So it does turn out to 432 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 3: be true that most male folk start losing the upper 433 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 3: ranges of their hearing starting around age twenty five or so. 434 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: We just we're not sure what's driving it, but we 435 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 3: do know that he's cutting off the top end of 436 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: his hearing starting about his mid twenties, which means by 437 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 3: the time he arrives at middle age, most male people 438 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 3: are actually having trouble hearing most female voices. That's because 439 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: our voices are higher pitched. 440 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is why my dad can't ever 441 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: hear my mom when she tells him to do something. 442 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so that you know, that kind of got 443 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 3: to me. It's sort of like, so here we are 444 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 3: in all of these boardrooms and these spaces of power, 445 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 3: and dudes can't hear us like come on, like you know, 446 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: so they need hearing a sooner than we do, and 447 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: it would be good for everyone if they started using them. 448 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: I have a question for you that my mom and 449 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 2: I have been chatting about. She is postmenopause now okay, 450 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: and has shared with me so many of the symptoms 451 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: that she was dealing with during menopause. And we learn 452 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: from a doctor who came on the show that in 453 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: the past women weren't really supposed to live this long 454 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: like they we weren't living past menopause. 455 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: So one is that true? And two, how has. 456 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: Menopause aided in the evolution of our species or has it? 457 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 3: Yeah? So I think these are really good questions. I 458 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 3: hate this word supposed to know that phrase r because yeah, 459 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: because we keep looking to our evolutionary past for guidance 460 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: for how to understand how we're supposed to be. The 461 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: natural world does all kinds of things I would not 462 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: recommend for humans. It's absolutely true that for most of 463 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: human history, old people were probably like unicorns, like maybe 464 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 3: you saw someone with gray hair once, because most of 465 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 3: us were dying well before forty Only recently actually if 466 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: we greatly improved that. So we don't even know when menopause, 467 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: as a phenomenon of which depends on living past fifty, 468 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: would have kicked in in human history. We don't assume 469 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 3: that there was a lot of it for most of 470 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: human history, but we know that there is now and 471 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: it's absolutely about not dying. Congratulations ladies, if you're in menopause, 472 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: if you've passed menopause, all it means is you're not dead, 473 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 3: So good job not being dead. You're totally alive. That's 474 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: actually all menopause means, and it is weird that we 475 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: do it, like most mammals do not live a full 476 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: third of their potential lives after having stopped making eggs 477 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 3: and having babies. The reason that menopause is awesome for 478 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 3: our species is because it means that we have enough 479 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 3: women living past age fifty to form societies of the elderly, 480 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 3: and they are incredibly important for our human society's well being. 481 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 3: That's why menopause is awesome. 482 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: So, Kat, your book is called Eve How the female 483 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: body drove two hundred million years of human evolution? What 484 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: do we have to look forward to in the next 485 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: I don't know two hundred million years. What's next for 486 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: us in terms of human evolution and the female body. 487 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: I hope that we get better at individualizing medicine for 488 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 3: all of the different ways that our bodies are diverse, 489 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 3: so that we can, I don't know, reduce suffering, because 490 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 3: that's the only goal worth having actually anywhere at all, 491 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 3: that's the major goal. That's what we're doing here. I 492 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 3: hope that that includes better studies into how female bodies 493 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 3: work and when it does and doesn't matter that bodies 494 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 3: are female in terms of how you treat different disorders 495 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 3: and different kinds of pain. I hope that we stop 496 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 3: neglecting women who are getting older as if the problems 497 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 3: and side effects that come with menopause didn't matter just 498 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 3: because everyone goes through it. Actually they do matter. Actually, 499 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: we can make this better. We just need more research 500 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 3: to do it. I think at some point we will 501 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 3: develop an artificial womb, and however you feel about that, 502 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 3: I think it's going to be freaking amazing. Right now, 503 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: the only way to have children is to have somebody 504 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 3: gestate that child wild, right, and it is always a risk. 505 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 3: There is no such thing as pregnancy without risk. There 506 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 3: is always risk, and there is always some degree of suffering. 507 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 3: Imagine if there were a fully functional, totally non harmful 508 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 3: way of doing that that didn't require anybody to suffer. 509 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: How does that change the choices we make? What kind 510 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 3: of freedom does that allow future people with the uterus 511 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 3: to have? Man I actually think it's going to take 512 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: a few hundred years. But if we can do that, 513 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 3: then that changes how we understand what people with these 514 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: bodies should be obliged to do. 515 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: What an interesting answer. Thank you so much, Thank you 516 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: so much for your time. 517 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for your time. 518 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: Kap Ohannan is a writer who researches the evolution of 519 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: narrative and cognition. The YA edition of her book Eve, 520 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: How the Female Body Shaped two hundred million Years of 521 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: Evolution is out February twenty fifth. 522 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're chatting with superstar 523 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Array about her new movie One of Them Days. Join 524 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect with 525 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram and 526 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and feel 527 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: free to tag us at simone Voice and at Danielle Robe. 528 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: Listen and follow the bright side on the iHeartRadio app, 529 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 530 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, keep looking on the bright side.