1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: we are continuing making our way through the book Climate Obstruction, 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: a Global Survey. And good news, this book is now 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: officially out and available for free download. We'll stick a 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: link in the show notes and on the website. Today 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: I am joined by Jen Schneider at Boise State University 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: and Gregory Trencher from Kyoto University to talk about the coal, utilities, 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: and transportation industries. So we talked last time about the 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: fossil fuel industry and the role that it has played 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: in obstructing climate policy at the global level, but it's 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: not the only industry that is working to do that, 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: and today we're going to dig into three more. All 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: three of these industries have mounted efforts to stop governments 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: from regulating emissions or transitioning to cleaner energy, and a 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: lot of times they kind of dovetail with each other. 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: So coal, for example, and railroad companies often lobby together 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: because in some ways the railroad industry has been heavily 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: dependent on coal and vice versa. We're going to dig 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: into those intersections and what the strategies from these industries 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: look like and how they differ from the fossil fuel 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: industry's approach. In today's episode, I learned a lot, and 22 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: I hope you will too. So you wrote in the 23 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: chapter about why you ended up looking at coal, transportation, 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: and utilities together. But I was wondering reading it if 25 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: you were always looking at them together, or if the 26 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: research sort of led in that direction. 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: I wish I had an exciting answer for that, but 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: I actually you've always focused on the coal industry, and 29 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: I think Greg has written quite a bit about coal 30 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: as well, but also transportation. I think you could write 31 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 2: a whole chapter just on coal. I think that would 32 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: be fascinating. But the editors asked us to connect them, 33 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: and I think the I think the argument really was 34 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: that when you think about coal and transport and others, 35 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, like the steel industry or railroad, they're very, 36 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: very connected in terms of the way things flow globally, 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: so pretty hard to talk about the coal industry without 38 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: also talking about the trains that carry coal, for example. 39 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: So coal's futures are connected to the railroad's futures, and 40 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 2: so I think it made sense, sort of from a 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: logical perspective to think about them as connected. And then 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 2: as we were writing Greg, it just became clearer and 43 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: clearer that so many of them were kind of borrowing 44 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: ideas from each other, or had some of them had 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: shared kind of front groups or shared strategies for speaking 46 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: about climate changer climate policy. 47 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 3: I agree, yeah, And I think if you went looking 48 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 3: for the links across these sectors, all these industries, you 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: would find them. But I think it's just like a 50 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 3: habit of all lot of researchers to sort of focus 51 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: on particular silos. So I think there's a lot of 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 3: people that sort of identify themselves as core researchers and 53 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 3: they don't really sort of do research on the transportation industry. 54 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 3: I myself have been doing research and transportation and call separately, 55 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: but we've had very few occasions, I think, to look 56 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 3: at these from that more of a macro picture. 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 4: So I think the chapter provided this. 58 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: I was actually like, wow, I never thought of these 59 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: things as being linked, but there were so many connections 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: between all of them, even just the thing about trains 61 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: and call. It's like, of course, I've thought about that 62 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: a little bit, but I don't know. The railroad industry 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: always sort of gets a pass on this stuff because 64 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: we think it's just like romantic train travel and not 65 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, chemicals and. 66 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, until there's an accident or something, and then people 67 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: will pay attention to things like that. 68 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a struggle for any book, but especially 69 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: climate right now. How much do you feel like the 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: research has changed, even just in the last six months, 71 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: especially around cole Not that it was dying before, as 72 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: you point out, but even more so it seems like 73 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: it's it's come roaring back. How much is the landscape 74 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: changing in which these tactics are being deployed. Well, I 75 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: can maybe speak in the US context, So I think 76 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: in the United States, the challenge for scholars is that 77 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: on the one hand, there might be federal rhetoric or 78 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: executive actions that point towards say the president's values or 79 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: the new administration's values. But then there's reality, a lot 80 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: of which I think is determined by industry and by 81 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: economic trends. So, for example, I think during the first 82 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: Trump administration, President Trump really argued that he was going 83 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: to bring the coal industry back, that it would come 84 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: roaring back. That was part of the sort of make 85 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: America great again promise. The coal industry was facing such 86 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: serious economic headwinds that that just wasn't going to be possible. 87 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: So I think you can see new investments in things 88 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: like the coal industry or movements away from electric cars 89 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: sort of in terms of the rhetoric, will industry, you know, 90 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: sort of spin on a dime and match that. It 91 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: certainly takes its cues from those political winds that are blowing. 92 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: But I think it takes a. 93 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: Lot longer for us to see actual infrastructure change in 94 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: the long term because those those systems are really big 95 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 2: and complicated. 96 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it has anything changed over the last six months, 97 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 3: I would say that probably no, especially like I think 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 3: if we're thinking about like the direction of decarbonization or 99 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 3: let's say less best interests or something like this. So 100 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: to give you an example, in that automobile industry, over 101 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: the probably past two or so years, around the world, 102 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 3: we're seeing a lot of car makers making quite ambitious 103 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: targets to increase the production and the sales of evs. So, 104 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: you know, companies like the BM Group the day in 105 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: the group in Japan, we had like our big companies 106 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: to Honda awake in these pledges and what we've seen 107 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 3: actually is a bit of a skating back of these 108 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: pledges and the scating back series to be happen for 109 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 3: a few reasons. 110 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 4: One, I think there's a. 111 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 3: Lot of concern about how ferocious China is as a 112 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,119 Speaker 3: competitor to these Western car companies. Probably over the last 113 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: year we've seen a shift towards protectionism. These companies actually 114 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: now lobbying the governments asking for like trade US to 115 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 3: protect them. This is something that I guess you could 116 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: almost call it like a dirty rule of it. Western 117 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 3: countries were criticizing China for doing this ten years ago 118 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 3: to protect their ev industry, and now we're sort of 119 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: borrowing this tactic to protect our incumbent industries that are 120 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 3: still focused on internal combustion engines. So this is one 121 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: particular example that just shows you that even some of 122 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: the program that we thought was occurring is kind of 123 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: encountering some pretty stiff turbulence right now. And then I 124 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: think another characteristic of all these industries is what we 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: call path dependency. We also have this very similar term 126 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: called locking, and basically these industries are reflecting these structures, 127 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: and the structures are political. They're also consist of infrastructure, capital, workers, people, technologies, 128 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: especially in the case of internal combustion engines and aviation 129 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: engines and plants, and so these change very slowly, and 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 3: there's a lot of linkages across these very complex systems, 131 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: and so we would never expect these to sort of 132 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: change radically in sort of six months. That sort of 133 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 3: I think flies in the face of theory of path 134 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,559 Speaker 3: dependency and with locking with sort of we expect rapid 135 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: change to come from these people coming from the outside. 136 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: So Tesla has been very symbolic of this, and now 137 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 3: we have BYD from China that's sort of characterizing this 138 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: ability to change very rapidly. These are kind of traditional 139 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: industries we would never really expect rapid change to come from. 140 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: That makes sense. Can I have you guys each and 141 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: maybe to be this up, but I want to have 142 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: you walk through and give some concrete examples of some 143 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: of the rhetorical tactics in action. Climate denial is an 144 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: easy one, but where are you still seeing people use 145 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: kind of old school climate denial as a tactic? 146 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that was one of maybe the most 147 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: interesting things that came out of working on this chapter 148 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: was that I think there was a belief for a while, 149 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: maybe for a minute, after the first Trump administration that 150 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 2: maybe climate denial was going away, right, that maybe there 151 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: was a sense that, Okay, you know, the bad George W. 152 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 4: Bush years when. 153 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: Climate denial was in its heyday are over, and there's 154 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: large public consensus now, and we're seeing all of these 155 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: major weather events things to people on the ground are 156 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: starting to believe in climate change, and denial doesn't make 157 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: sense anymore. 158 00:08:58,760 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 4: I think we learned. 159 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: Pretty quick that that was not true, and that climate 160 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 2: denial would exist alongside all of these other strategies which say, Okay, 161 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: climate change is happening, and so there's this cognitive dissonance 162 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: that was happening where Okay, on the one hand, we're 163 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: going to deny climate change or deny that it's a 164 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: severe as scientist say, and on the other hand, okay, 165 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: if it is happening, well then we can certainly, you know, 166 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: innovate our way out of it. So I think that 167 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: was an interesting piece that sort of emerged from the 168 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: chapter around climate denial. I will say, you know, it's 169 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: just really complicated with the social media landscape too, to 170 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: say that, yeah, any sort of trend has gone away, 171 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: because I think we have a very conspiratorial culture in 172 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: a lot of pockets of the web and climate denial. 173 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: Certainly it continues to thrive in those pockets. 174 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird to see some of the really old 175 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: versions coming back. I've seen a total resurgence of the 176 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: like CO two is good for plants one. 177 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the yeah, or the or the deep state is 178 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: now but you know, messing with our weather to cause 179 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: these major stores, and that's what's happening, you know. So 180 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: there's a really interesting, i think evolution of those early 181 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: climate denial ur arguments we saw. 182 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: We have this idea of like denying the physical science, 183 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 3: you know, so we can see that CT is actually 184 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 3: good sort of tile or it's not coming from humans. 185 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 3: But another tactic that's also tapping the science is to 186 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 3: question the solutions. And so electric vehicles have been widely 187 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 3: sort of promoted by governance, by stakeholders and across the world, 188 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 3: and so we see certain companies actually saying, well, in 189 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 3: the context of Japan, we have large auto makers saying 190 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: that evs are actually not as good planet as other solutions. 191 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 3: And so there's quite a lot of science showing us 192 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 3: that ev is are superior to other drive chains, especially 193 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 3: gasoline vehicles, and so it's interesting that these solutions are 194 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: now being sort of tackled by these companies from a 195 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 3: so called like research that's tied their own studies about 196 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 3: should show their own grafts, saying that, look, if you 197 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 3: look at it from this perspective, the two benefits are 198 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 3: actually superior. For in the case of Japan's hybrid vehicles, 199 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 3: hybrid vehicles only have limited decarbonization potential according to for example, IPCC, 200 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: whereas the major car companies over here very systematically denied 201 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 3: the environmental benefits of electric vehicles to justify their further 202 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 3: emphasis on hybrids as a dec urbanization pathway. 203 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Do you think that's tied into Japan's anti 204 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: renewables bent a little bit too. 205 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the renewables situation, I guess is a bit 206 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 3: complex in Japan. I would say that now Japan is 207 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: not really anti renewables. About maybe twenty ten to five 208 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: years ago, there was definitely a lot of pushback from 209 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: the major industry associations, which we do cover in a chapter, 210 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 3: and they were sort of saying very strongly that Japan 211 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 3: should not too quickly to trineables because this would have 212 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 3: ecomic percussions and electricity will come too expensive, this would 213 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 3: push industry away, so Augus and them on. We see 214 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 3: it's used by all these industries sort of persuade governments 215 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 3: and not to nurse too quickly. To answer your question specifically, 216 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 3: Japan today is making reasonable efforts towards renewables, and we're 217 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: actually one of the world ladies in solar, so we 218 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 3: make very rapid progress in solo. We're a legout in 219 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: our wins and wind is I think one of these 220 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: very important indicators of the energy transition. So we've got 221 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: a lot of work to do there. I think like 222 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: the United States, the United States has a lot of 223 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: onshore wing, but they don't have much offshore wins, which 224 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: is it out the story, I. 225 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: Guess, yeah, and they're probably not going to get it anytimes. 226 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 4: It's perfect. 227 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, what about corporate ventriloquism. Is there a specific 228 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: example you can share of that that will help people 229 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: kind of go oh yeah, okay, I see that all 230 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: the time. 231 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, So corporate ventriloquism is this idea that these industry groups, 232 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: which is like a collection of different companies and you 233 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: know front groups, they come together. They have a particular 234 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 2: set of interests and corporate friend triloquism is the idea 235 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: that they can throw their voice through these organizations that 236 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 2: they create that seem like their grassroots. So a grassroots organization, 237 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: you know, like Communities for Coal something like that, and 238 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: you go to the website for Communities for Coal and 239 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: it looks as if this is something that people in 240 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, towns that rely on the coal industry have 241 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: created because they love coal so much. And so we 242 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: see a lot of images with flags and with picnics 243 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: and children and people in military uniforms, and the idea 244 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: there is that there's a flattening between the community itself 245 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: and the corporations that are benefiting from coal extraction. So 246 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: it makes it seem as if if the industry dies, 247 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: or if this company dies, or if this company is regulated, 248 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: our community too is going to die. And so it 249 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: kind of creates this one to one relationship between the 250 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: individual in the community and the company, and that is 251 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: used to create this really anti regulatory sentiment. 252 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: Okay, I wanted to ask you guys both about these 253 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: these three narratives to the apocalyptic consequences for industry, technological optimism, 254 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: and fossil fuel solutionism and the right to develop and 255 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: the energy poverty and like just picking one if there's 256 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: like a I don't know, a story you've come across 257 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: that really illustrates it, or like an ad you've seen 258 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: that illustrates it. 259 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, so very quickly, I think femal bring has become 260 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: very prominent regarding government ady promotion policies. So we see 261 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: across Europe, across Japan, across I guess the United States 262 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: as well. There's lots of concerns being from automobile companies 263 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: that the shift tubes electric vehicles is going to cause 264 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 3: widespread unemployment. And Toyta in Japan has used some very 265 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 3: strong languages that described things such as business model collapse. 266 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 3: And I think that they're probably being quite honest there 267 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: because it is the shift evs, especially at the scale 268 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: of like I say, one hundred percent eventually away from 269 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: the dominating technologists today, which is internal combustion engine or 270 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: hybrid variations. It's a completely different value Dad, it's a 271 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: completely different production line. And so it is actually the 272 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 3: collapse of the current business law. So the question is 273 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: can they do it, and can they do this in 274 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 3: a way of that's you know, kind of minimize the 275 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 3: damage here. But this brings us to the concerns for 276 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 3: workers unemployment, and we see that this has constantly cited 277 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: as an excuse not to move too far. So I 278 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: think the among gering often leads to this idea of 279 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: painting this kind of impression for the public that the 280 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: company is not opposing the direction of travel, not opposing 281 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: a transition per se, but they're sort of arguing for 282 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: a bit more time, you know, a bit more assistance. 283 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: But we know that this is like a delay tactic. 284 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: So this is quite common. And I can't think of 285 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: the actual number, but in Japan there's huge amounts of 286 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 3: people were estimated to be working in the automobile industry. 287 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 3: I think it was five million. It just sounds like 288 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: really really huge, and I think to get that number 289 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: you have to take people working in it the insurance 290 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 3: sector that are probably selling insurance to like, you know, 291 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: homes and. 292 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: Coffee shop down the street from Toyota's office. 293 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, the coffee shops and you know it's next to 294 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 3: the service says, you'd have to bring everyone into this 295 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: like so called automobile industry. But they've used this number 296 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: of I'm quite sure it's five minute consistently for several 297 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: years and featured that on national television, in newspaper advertisements, 298 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 3: and so basically the message to the government was, if 299 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: you sort of push us too quickly towards batteries, then 300 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: these five million people are economically at risk. 301 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 302 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's such a convincing argument because they are just saying, like, 303 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: we're just want to go slow and study a litill change. 304 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: But in this very sensible way, it's hard to argue against. Okay, 305 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned workers, and I want to ask you both 306 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: about unions because they show up in a like every 307 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: part of this, and especially around how to bring unions 308 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: on board, which you also talk about. But yeah, I'm 309 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: curious what are some of the key ways that unions 310 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: are getting involved in obstruction? And then what are some 311 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: ways that you've seen that you know, be sort of 312 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: like turned into allies. 313 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: I'll speak primarily to the United States context, but I 314 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 2: think it's been fascinating to watch unions kind of position 315 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: themselves politically in relation to cole in particular, but also 316 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: the railroads in that I suppose the assumption, the partisan assumption, 317 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: might be that unions tend to be pro democratic or 318 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: pro liberall right, that they're going to vote in favor 319 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,479 Speaker 2: of sort of workers' interests, and we've seen that that 320 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 2: has not always been the case with the with the 321 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: coal industry in particular, so a lot of those unions 322 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: have seen a threat to the industry from climate regulation 323 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: or laws as a threat to their livelihoods, and so 324 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: there's been an interesting pushback or in alignment in the 325 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: United States context, particularly with the Trump administration, and they're 326 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: sort of pro coal policies or their pro coal approach. 327 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 2: I think where that shifts at times is when it 328 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: really comes down to the material realities of you know, 329 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: conditions for workers and whether or not they're having the 330 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: protections they need and getting the jobs they need. We 331 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: know that automation in the coal industry has led to 332 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: a huge decline in the number of jobs that one 333 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: can get in that industry, and so I think, you know, 334 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: it's going to be very context specific, but those are 335 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: the complications that I think workers in the unions that 336 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: represent them are having to naviocate. 337 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 3: That's actually kind of a bloodspot my knowledge, but lots 338 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 3: of researchers focus on this. So we worked with a 339 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 3: very large team of authorsere and I kind of feel that, 340 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 3: you know, we're getting a lot of the credits from 341 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: their hard work with basically just had the pleasure of 342 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 3: just accepting these intellectual treats, you know, and just and 343 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 3: certainly the like in this particular way and polishing them. 344 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: And we did receive a lot of material that's like 345 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: far too large to fit in where many pages were 346 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 3: given to work with, but unions were cited by many 347 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 3: of them. And one of the messages we did see 348 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 3: was that our unions a lot of the time they 349 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: are an obstructive force, but sometimes they're kind of being persuaded, 350 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 3: and because their main concern is jobs, and so when 351 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: they sort of see legitimate strategy so let's say, to 352 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 3: create jobs, then they actually do come on board and 353 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: we see that. I think Germany is probably a great 354 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 3: case where the unions have boys understood the coal industry 355 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: in decline because of you know, climate change and because 356 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: of these other economic forces they were renewals forgetting about 357 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 3: climates becoming cheaper and more competitive that many contexts, and 358 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: so they consider about their long term vitality and idea 359 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: of the government sort of injecting large amounts of funds 360 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 3: into these communities that provide these new jobs or retraining 361 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 3: and things. This actually is interesting for some of the 362 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: people in these units. Units have actually changed positions and 363 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 3: supportant green transition packages based upon the evidence that. 364 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 4: We receive well. 365 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: And I would just say, going back to the path 366 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 2: dependency point that Greg made earlier, a lot of these 367 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: unions have been in these industry groups for a long time, 368 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: so they've been coordinating with and part of those front 369 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: groups that are doing that corporate ventriloquism thing. And so 370 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: I think, you know, you're locked into these relationships or 371 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: these coordinated activities. It's pretty tough to peel off unless 372 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: there are real incentives for doing that. 373 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: That's interesting, Okay. I want to ask you about the 374 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: technological optimism and fossil fuel solutionism because this is the 375 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: one place where I feel like it might be quite 376 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: different from industry to industry. 377 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 2: Like I think it's hard for coal to be like 378 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: technolop the way. I'm wrong. Oh, you'd be surprised. 379 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, we do have this in Japan actually and Asia. Yeah. Wow. 380 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: So I think one of the solutions a lot of 381 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 3: people are familiar with is carbon capture and. 382 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 4: Storage c cs of course, Yeah, but. 383 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 3: What's happened recently is that all across Asia, like countries 384 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 3: acts Vietnam and Indonesia especially, but also countries like India 385 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 3: China as well, we have these very young cold fight 386 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: palp plants, and so if these countries were to be 387 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 3: serious about transitioning towards renewables, we're going to have to 388 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 3: write these off before the end of their economic lives. 389 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 3: So we're going to end up with the so called 390 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: stranded asset. And not only that wells these countries are 391 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: actually under a lot of stress to supply the power 392 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 3: for their very rapidly growing populations and economies. So it's 393 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: actually not easy for them to shut down, say a 394 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 3: cold fire power plant which produces a massive amount of 395 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: power and replace that with solar powers. 396 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 4: This is a very very difficult change, and so. 397 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 3: They have very strong interest in sort of maintaining these 398 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 3: assets while decarbonizing. And that's open to the tour to 399 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 3: these discussions about slow callder ammonia curve firing right being 400 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 3: promoted very heavily by Japan, but also also by South Korea, 401 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 3: and I guess possibly by some Chinese companies too. But 402 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: this is an approach. Basically that involves producing ammonia, which 403 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 3: is basically an energy carriers. So we can obtain this 404 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 3: from either dirty sources such as fossil fuels or from 405 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 3: clean sources such as renewals, and it's very similar to hydrogen. 406 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: So basically we bring this to a certain country and 407 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: then in the case of emoia, we can burn this 408 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 3: and we can actually replace a portion of that call, 409 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 3: so we can for example at place ten or twenty percent, 410 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 3: and then the idea is to move progressively up towards 411 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 3: replacing call together and just having the same power station 412 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 3: in the future burning ammonia. And this is like the 413 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: sort of solution that's been promised to stakehorese public to politicians. 414 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 3: There's a lot of money being injected in this now. 415 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 3: So this is definitely an unproven technology and Bloomberg New 416 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 3: Energy Finance have looked to the economics. It just said, 417 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 3: this doesn't make sense. Green Ammonia's is great. We should 418 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: be using this being other industries, not in an industry 419 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 3: where we have other cheaper solutions such as renewkes. But 420 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: ammonia COFID has been used, especially pushed by Japanese copies 421 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: across with young assets. 422 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of a shell game, right, It's like, Okay, 423 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 2: we're not clean right now, We're not you know, in 424 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: alignment with climate goals right now, but if you invest 425 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: in us and allow us to grow in ten years, 426 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 2: we will we will be right. So it's always just 427 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: it's like nuclear fusion. It's always just ten years away 428 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 2: and we will get there. 429 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: The same with hydrogen carbon capture, all of these technologies. 430 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: They're like, if you just build it, then it'll make 431 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: it cheap enough for everyone that it'll it'll all work 432 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: out in the end somehow. 433 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: Trust us. Amazing, Okay. 434 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: So then on the right to develop an energy poverty, 435 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: I mean I see this one all the time from 436 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: every polluting industry, but yeah, I'm curious for like some 437 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: of the specific ways that it shows up in these industries. 438 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: And then also what is your standard response against that, 439 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: because I feel like it maybe shows up the most 440 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: with coal, even more than other fossil fuels. Coal is 441 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: the one that's like, oh, but we need it for 442 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: cheap energy, So how does it show up and what's 443 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: the response? 444 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I really think it's sort of a co 445 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 2: opting of liberal discourse. And then using that discourse against 446 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 2: climate advocates. So, you know, I think a lot of 447 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 2: environmental justice folks or climate change advocates would say that 448 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: they really care about things like poverty and inequity. They 449 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: care about the ways in which the global South have 450 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: not been allowed to develop at the same rate or 451 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: has been taken advantage of by the global North. And 452 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: so you have the industry saying, oh, you care about 453 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: energy poverty. Well, guess what a good way to get 454 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: a lot of folks in the Global South out of 455 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: energy poverty is to allow them to burn coal really quickly. 456 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 2: Or guess what you have folks in Europe who are 457 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 2: experiencing transportation poverty, and the best way to alleviate that 458 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: is to make sure that they have access to automobiles. 459 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: So Greg probably has some policy answers, But for me, 460 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: as a rhetorician, I'm always thinking about ways in which 461 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: that the opposition to polluting industries is turned back on 462 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: itself so that it kind of takes the moral rug 463 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 2: out from under them and allows the industry to say, actually, 464 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: we're the moral ones. We're the ones who understand how 465 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: to fix the world. 466 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: So this idea of you know, fossil vieus being critical 467 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: for human well being, for keeping the lights on, for 468 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 3: helping countries develop their economies. This pattern has been demonstrated 469 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 3: throughout history, I mean unfortunately. So there's actually kind of 470 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 3: a lot of truth or sort of this corresponds, I guess, 471 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: with the development trajectory of land countries and countries like 472 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: China until now. So the question is should we'd be 473 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: sort of alow in these countries to continue on this 474 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: same path which is being shown to be so detrimental 475 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 3: climate and to also air pullush and human health. And 476 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 3: so what we sort of see is countries that are 477 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: kind of cleaned up themselves and they sort of paint like, 478 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 3: you know, for example, the exporting of coal as they're 479 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 3: doing other countries of favor. And so I remember being 480 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 3: in Japan on YouTube seeing this throughly a collages of 481 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: Tokyo Oh wow, ily dear, you know, and then I 482 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 3: realized that this is an advertisement from the Australian Minerals Council, 483 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 3: which heavily represents Call. They're sort of saying that they're 484 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 3: exporting Call to Japan and they're helping your client in Japan, 485 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 3: and they're also promotes in their calls being cleaner than 486 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: other sources called we're talking just about you know, black 487 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 3: lumps carbon from the ground, right, and arguably we can 488 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 3: see that one type is a little bit better than 489 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 3: another type. But that's more so from not a carbon perspective, 490 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 3: it's more from a sulfur perspective, because sulfur is actually 491 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 3: when it has had sulfur content, this contributes to very 492 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: high leveled local air pollution, which is very tremendal to 493 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 3: human health. 494 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 4: So Australia was sort of. 495 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 3: Arguing that their call is, you know, clean, cleaner than 496 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 3: others competing on minerals out the here, and yet we're 497 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 3: arguing that they're helping Japan and Avouced country keep it 498 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 3: chink counts in running for example, the bullet train. So 499 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 3: that was quite a surprise to see this happening in 500 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 3: the context of two develops countries and energy poverty. Yeah, 501 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 3: this is a concept we here we discuss more so, 502 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 3: I guess in developed countries setting, So you know, I 503 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 3: guess the United States, Europe we have we know that 504 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: it's true, we have people that are clearly in disadvantage 505 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 3: positions and they're affected very strongly by the price of 506 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: fossil fuels that could be, for example, for their heating, 507 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 3: or that could be for their commuting, because especially as 508 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: you know, a lot of people with lower incomes, so 509 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: kind of they've chosen to purchase houses with your prices, 510 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 3: which is usually further away from the work, and so 511 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 3: they have to commit further, which makes them more vulnerable 512 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: to a price increases such as happened about one and 513 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 3: a half years ago with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Service 514 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 3: energy poverty actually occurs in our United States, Australia, Japan, Europe, 515 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: but we see that this is used as an excuse 516 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 3: to sort of to make a transition, because there's always 517 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 3: concerned that that's mobilized, that the energy transition will cost 518 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 3: these people more money. And then we sometimes see this 519 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 3: used as an excuse to keep fossil fuel subsidies to 520 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 3: help suppress fossil fuel prices, to help these people serve, 521 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 3: you know, survive, which is of course a very really 522 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 3: important thing we shouldn't forget. There is a need to 523 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 3: sort of help them use less energy in the first place, 524 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 3: and to help bring the structure away from which creates 525 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: is probably in their first place. 526 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 2: So what's yournog well, and not to mention that they 527 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: often bear desperate impacts of pollution from fossil fuels, so 528 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: they're less able to sort of fight back against those things. 529 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: They tend to have higher pollutant levels in the places 530 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: where they live, less access to medical care. So those 531 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: are the pieces that you don't hear as much about 532 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: in those energy poverty arguments. It's a particular slice of 533 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 2: a moral argument that they want you to take away 534 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: as opposed to a moralistic sure, a complicated issue. 535 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing that I always ask fossil fuel executives 536 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: when they make this argument, because they do it over 537 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: and over again, is what are you doing to get 538 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: your coal to poor people? And then they're like, I'm 539 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: sorry what They claim that this is going to solve it, 540 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: but it's like, isn't it the fuel we've been using 541 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: for the last hundred years? Why is it still a 542 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: problem if that's the fix, you know, And they're like, no, 543 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: that's a great question. We really got to start working 544 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: on that more. And we have a foundation and they're 545 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: going to start working on that, and it's amazing. Anyway, Okay, 546 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: I want to know from each of you, what was 547 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: the most surprising thing that you found in this research 548 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: or in pulling the chapter together. Maybe it was in 549 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: other people's research coming in. 550 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: Maybe I can quickly give it a short answer there necessaria, 551 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: I don't have that much knowledge, so I'm just responding 552 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: to statements we're seeing in the period literature and from 553 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 3: our colleagues. But it seems to be the case that 554 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 3: in certain countries and that global South, especially the activists 555 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: that are sort of trying to drop the expansion of 556 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: coal extractionism or you know, the construction of confied help 557 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 3: plants or something, it seems to be especially common in 558 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 3: call have found themselves to be targeted by it, for example, 559 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: a local police force by political movements, and they've incurred 560 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 3: things such as bullying, arrests, jail sentences, and there seems 561 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 3: to also be cases of terrible things like modes of 562 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 3: renowned activists sort of being silenced physically forever. And so 563 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 3: this concern it's a human rights issue, but it also 564 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 3: creates tear and I think we can see this in 565 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 3: the United States. Current administration has targeted very prominent, you know, 566 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 3: academic institutions, trying to make an example out of them, 567 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: which sort of sends a very strong signal to the 568 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 3: weaker place that if you sort of do something similar, 569 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: you'll be next. And so this bullying tactic seems to exist, 570 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 3: and it's probably it hasn't caught too much pension of people. Yeah, 571 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 3: there's been I think putting in the United States, quite 572 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 3: a few researchers that have been to Columbia and sort 573 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 3: of you know, I've spoken to the affected communities and yeah, 574 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 3: this is quite a real phenomenon. And for searches that 575 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 3: are in westerns of context, we're more predicted, we're not 576 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 3: really exposed to this injustices in our firsthand we probably 577 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: take less interest in them because we're looking more so, 578 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 3: I guess at the issues that have a strong coalition 579 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 3: with what we observe in our countries. But there's a 580 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 3: few people that sort of, you know, take the trouble 581 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: to visit these countries and to talk to people, and 582 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 3: it's quite disturbing the information that they've been home. 583 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Jen, what about you was sort of the most 584 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: surprising learning working on this. 585 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,959 Speaker 2: Maybe a related comment which is just we had an 586 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: amazing team. I feel like we had Jason Amnios on 587 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: the chapter. For example. It's probably the only scholar really 588 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,479 Speaker 2: working on maritime climate policy, which is an area I 589 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: hadn't given much lot to it all. 590 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: I hadn't until there were like those news stories this 591 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: year about the IMO. 592 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 2: It was like, I didn't even know this existed. This 593 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 2: is fascinating exactly, and so he really helped us understand 594 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: what was happening there, and then we could see connections 595 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: to industries that I understand better, coal or utilities. But 596 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: there's been so much work done on oil and gas, 597 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: and I think so much public attention to oil and 598 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: gas and then probably to cool next after that, but 599 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: I think very little attention paid to the role of utilities, 600 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 2: for example, and so so powerful in a lot of 601 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: national contexts in blocking climate policy. And then yeah, something 602 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: as a sector that's as big as you know, shipping 603 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: across the seas, that's having such a huge impact, and 604 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: it's almost impossible to study because like, how do you 605 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 2: get into those closed rooms where they're making a lot 606 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 2: of policy, And there's so much movement back and forth 607 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: between government regulatory bodies and the industry. Right, So just 608 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: the opaqueness of a lot of all of this I 609 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: thought was pretty fascinating to think about. And yet these 610 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 2: are huge contributors to carbonization and something that we would 611 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 2: love to study more. 612 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating. Okay, if there's anything else in the chapter 613 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: that you want to make sure to draw attention to, 614 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: now's your chance. 615 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: Well I would just go back. You ask me for 616 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: an example on corporate and tril equism, and I would 617 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 2: just the most prominent example I can think of was 618 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 2: an information campaign that came out of a national front 619 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: group called ACE American Coalition for Clean Coal Energy something 620 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, And it was called the Faces of Coal, 621 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 2: and so it was this website. Do you remember that 622 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: saved me. 623 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: I had forgotten about it and then I saw it 624 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: in your chapter and I was like, oh my god, 625 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: I remember this. 626 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it was. It was all of these like 627 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: you know, hard working Americans who were quote unquote the 628 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 2: Faces of Coal and who were meant to represent the 629 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: community members who were speaking for and on behalf of coal. 630 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 2: And it turned out they were all stock images. There 631 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: were no real people. Just like you're saying, there was 632 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: no real community organization that was speaking for coal. It 633 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: was the front group. I'm not saying that community members 634 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: don't support the coal industry, of course, some do, but 635 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 2: to sort of represent itself as speaking for the community, 636 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: as coming from the community. I think that's probably the 637 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 2: most classic example of corporate centril equism that we have 638 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: in the US. 639 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, a technic I would like to highlight exap litigation. 640 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 3: I think for people a kind of living in Asia, 641 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 3: just the idea of our company suing the government because 642 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 3: they didn't like the environmental policy. 643 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 4: It's just shocking. I think this culturally wouldn't happen. 644 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 3: I mess there's a very very strong reason, but I 645 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 3: think this is just part of life in the United States. 646 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 3: But this there commun is a very prominent and visible 647 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 3: way that companies trying to obstruct climate actions. Any particular 648 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 3: incidences of litigation that sort of called your attention, Jen 649 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: in the United States. 650 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, how do you think about a specific example? 651 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 2: But Amy U asked at the top of the interview, 652 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: you know, has anything really changed in the last six months? 653 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: And maybe that is something that we really see changing, 654 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: which is that as the balance of powers erodes under 655 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: this Trump administration, we're definitely seeing an alignment of administrative 656 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: agencies and court rulings. I think, so we're going to 657 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: see a less ability for community groups, for example, to 658 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 2: push back on companies acting in ways that they don't like. 659 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 2: And I think more likely e companies being able to 660 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 2: use the courts successfully to be back regulation and going 661 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 2: all the way up to the Supreme Court and the 662 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: Supreme Court sort of allowing for deregulation to continue to happen. 663 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 4: So I think, you. 664 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: Know, history will tell how intense that's going to be 665 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 2: in how long lasting. But I suspect that is going 666 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 2: to be one of the lasting ricacies of this particular moment. 667 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 3: I guess maybe some people would be interested in, like, 668 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 3: you know, what we can do about these problems and 669 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,919 Speaker 3: solutions the responses. And this is really difficult because unfortunately, 670 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 3: when you look at I guess academics we specialize in 671 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 3: sort of finding the problems in the world, at criticizing 672 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 3: society and seeing, you know, here the problems, and then 673 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 3: people say, okay, what do we do about this? 674 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 4: This is much more difficult. 675 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 3: It's not like we say, you know, we found A 676 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 3: and B, therefore we have to do see But and 677 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 3: it's important I think that we still train, you know, 678 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 3: formulate strategies based upon this intelligence that we're sort of 679 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 3: assembled here. So I think one of the most evident 680 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 3: things is to sort of, you know, make these opaque 681 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 3: processes less opaque. And there seems to be this recurring 682 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 3: pattern across the world of people in powerful positions in 683 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 3: the industry enjoy very direct access to politicians, and they're 684 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 3: able to very heavily influence the not necessarily the political process, 685 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 3: but you know, the rulemaking process and policies, and people 686 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 3: that are other society actors that are also stakeholders have 687 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 3: less resources, therefore have less connections and have less influence 688 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 3: in this. So this is actually a problem that is 689 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 3: prominent not only in the environmental space, but I guess 690 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 3: in many areas. I'm sure it's also a problem like 691 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 3: see edison. There must be many other industries where this 692 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 3: is our concern. So how can we make these political 693 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 3: activities of companies more visible? And so I guess this 694 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 3: leads to something quite radical, which is governments would sort 695 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 3: of actually very actively and transparently communicate who they met 696 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 3: and what they spoke about with the public for example. 697 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 3: This is sort of I think, and as we stay well, 698 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 3: but I think that unless we have something sort of 699 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 3: radical like this, it's going to be very hard to 700 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 3: track these political lobbying activities. A lot of it's happening 701 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 3: behind to closed stores, and so there have been discussions 702 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 3: about this in Europe and I think efforts to make 703 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 3: you love being more visible. But I think especially in 704 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 3: contact like the United States, where lobbying and sometimes in 705 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 3: political donations, sometimes political variation is visible, I guess in 706 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 3: the case of Tesla and or Musk and sometimes you know, 707 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 3: we can assume there's other very less visible donations happening. 708 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 3: This really is I think a barrier to moving to 709 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 3: society towards these sustainability goals. And I would just like 710 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 3: to say another thing that I think is a big 711 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 3: challenge here is that there's also a need for government 712 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 3: to toughen up, to be able to sort of identify 713 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 3: these first in interest and to sort of not be 714 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 3: afraid of confronting industry when it has to make a 715 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 3: particular different decision, like for example, you know about the 716 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,399 Speaker 3: speed of moving away from fossil fuels or the need 717 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 3: to promote battery electrid vehicles. Unfortunately, what we're seeing is 718 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 3: that in Europe among other countries, there seems to be 719 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 3: the listen less capacity in government for them to sort 720 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 3: of produce their own intelligence. They have to rely on 721 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 3: industry and consultants for life, for example, modeling estimations about 722 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 3: the effect of a certain policy. And so because there's 723 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 3: less intellectual capacity in certain domains in governments, that means 724 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,479 Speaker 3: they have to rely in industry. This opens the door 725 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 3: also to versted interest from industry affecting the environment policy 726 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 3: making process. 727 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 4: So this is a bit of a concern. 728 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 3: That this shift towards you're seeing more of a private 729 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 3: step to savvy in the regulation of society in an 730 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 3: organization of a state, this actually is opening the door 731 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 3: to and invested interests coming potentially reinforcing Lupian. 732 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that revolving door problem, I think is really so bad. 733 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,720 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that in relation 734 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: to the solutions piece too that you mentioned in the chapter, 735 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,439 Speaker 1: about how there are some differences between these industries or 736 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: maybe between groups within the same industry, and that those 737 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: can be leveraged sometimes to weaken the position. Have you 738 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: seen a good example of that recently? You talked about 739 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: in the case of automotive, that the automakers that are 740 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: better positioned to pivot to evs are better allies. 741 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 4: May shoot then. 742 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm curious if you've seen that dynamic in 743 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: action in an example that you could point to where 744 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,439 Speaker 1: one of the industry groups has turned on the other 745 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: and it's led to progress. 746 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 3: I don't have any specific examples of yeah, one sort 747 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 3: of actor picking a fire with another, but we definitely 748 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 3: say competition. I mean, that's one of the nice things 749 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 3: about a democratic society a capitalist society. These companies at 750 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 3: the end of the day, even though they might collaborate, 751 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 3: sometimes they're still looking at for themselves. So whenever they 752 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 3: see an opportunity to trip out their opponent or I 753 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 3: guess to you know, create a lead, they do so. 754 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 3: Regarding the electric vehicle transition, there are differently I think 755 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 3: differences like in temperature, in terms of like help actively 756 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 3: or how rapidly companies are pursuing that transition. So, for example, 757 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 3: Nissan has been a case of a company that's produced 758 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 3: electric vehicles, never at large scale, but that was the 759 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 3: world's first mass producer of these vehicles, and so they 760 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 3: took a very firm, like batricentric stance to electrification, whereas 761 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 3: other companies chose like hybrids or hydrogen in the case 762 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 3: of Japan, and then Volkswagen in Europe, of course, they 763 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 3: had the dieselbed scandal that sort of pushed them to 764 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 3: do something clean, a good, but they pursued the battery's 765 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 3: centric pathway, and that's so they use this as an 766 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 3: excuse always to criticize the other competing technologies, which was 767 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 3: hydrogen fuel cells. So these companies will sort of compete 768 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 3: with each other in that respect. But what we seen, 769 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 3: unfortunately is there also companies that have moved rapidly towards batteries. 770 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 3: In Putt Volkswagen, A'm suffering from economic repercussions. This is 771 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 3: making a lot of people sort of nervous. It's a 772 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 3: bit of a almost an incubating truth about this how 773 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 3: energy transition, whereas speaking of literary vehicles is quite expensive 774 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 3: and difficult, and these companies actually doing business model repercussions. 775 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 3: And that's why markets like China, which I guess sound 776 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 3: very large and there's just a huge demand for vehicles. 777 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 3: And also I guess they're just able to produce these 778 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 3: batteries cheaper and they have a more of a control 779 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 3: of the plage and they're able to do this in 780 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 3: a profitable way, whereas the western car companies haven't been 781 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 3: able to do this just yet so people like us 782 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 3: that research about obstruction. I guess we have to be 783 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 3: careful not not falling into the basket of it's just 784 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 3: everything's lack a white because a lot a lot of 785 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 3: the sort of you know, the triggers for a lot 786 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 3: of the rhetoric from these companies of genuine concerns. 787 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 4: We should be sensitive too. 788 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 3: But the thing is they weaponized, weaponized as a way 789 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 3: just to slow the transition, And that's the concern. Maybe 790 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 3: in the beginning there is a bit of your truth 791 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:13,720 Speaker 3: to some of these concerns. 792 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we see that in the anti renewable stuff too, 793 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: write where communities have valid concerns, and I don't think 794 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 1: it helps anyone to pretend that an industrial wind farm 795 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: is like some bucolic, quaint little thing. 796 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 2: It won't be disruptive at all, it won't be noisy. Yeah, yeah, 797 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 2: that's interesting. 798 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Make sure you're subscribed so 799 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: you don't miss an episode. You can find more on 800 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: this season, including transcripts and lots of related articles and 801 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: background information on our website at drilled dot Media. You 802 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: can also sign up for our newsletter there. Our producers 803 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: for this are Martin Saltz Ustwick and Peter duff. Our 804 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: theme song is Bird in the Hand by Foreknown. Our 805 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: cover art is by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment Attorney 806 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: is James Wheaton with the First Amendment Project. The show 807 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: was created, written, and reported by me Amy Westervelt. Thanks 808 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: for listening and see you next time.