WEBVTT - The System is Burning 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.840 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to OKF Daily with me 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.639 your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Long Island Bunker. Folks, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.560 when we have the opportunity to have Jonathan Metsal on, 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:30.000 we usually get into conversations about gun rights because that 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:37.480 is Jonathan's specialty, and you know how our rights as 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:42.199 citizens and our safety are being eroded. And in today's 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:47.239 conversation we take a look at the hearing that just 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.040 recently took place in Tennessee that was supposed to be 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:56.480 about how to make schools and environments more safe after 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.720 the Covenant shooting that took the lives of several children 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.960 and adults. It was the shooting that would spark massive 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.920 protests in Tennessee and then have the Tennessee Three with 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.720 two the Justins being expelled from the state House for 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:20.600 daring to stand up for and with their constituents. And 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.880 so what you will hear in the conversation with Jonathan 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:30.280 and I today is just my exasperation at the fact 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:34.600 that people are trying desperately to work inside of what 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:40.920 is a failed fucking system right where we are beginning 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:45.119 to understand that the gerrymandering that has taken place in 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:50.520 Red States. Hasn't just suppressed the voice and the vote 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.600 of Democrats and people of color, but it is now 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:59.120 right suppressing the vote and the voice of white people 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:05.000 as well. And what happens right when those that have 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.799 readily enjoyed privileges in this country because of the color 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.639 of their skin are now all of a sudden being 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.640 lumped in with everyone else that they were fine to ignore, 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.280 whose rights were being violated as well. And so you 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:26.400 see now this broadening, as Jonathan will put it, of 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:33.919 a coalition of people who want safety. And the fact 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.240 is is that we have very different siloed conversations about 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.560 liberty and freedom in this country and safety not being 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.000 a part of that. And for me, living in a 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.320 free society means that it is free from violence and 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.480 free from harm things that we can actually fucking control. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.520 But what the Tennessee government shows, as well as the 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.560 entirety of the Republican Party, is that there is no 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:05.440 negotiation with terrorists. There is no negotiation with people that 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.320 see their Second Amendment rights as a zero sum right. 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.520 But every other right can be chipped away at and 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.120 essentially eroded, so long as you can carry a gun 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.720 you see in a video that is now going around 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.919 on social media of white mothers sitting silently and holding 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.639 up signs that say kids over guns, and they were 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.560 forcibly removed by the sheriffs in that courtroom, a courtroom 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:42.920 that allows people to carry guns, right, but can't carry 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:50.280 a fucking sign And we think that that's okay. So, 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.120 you know, what Tennessee is showing, what Ohio has shown 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.080 as it pertains to abortion in Wisconsin, as it pertains 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:02.040 to abortion, is that they the tables have indeed turned 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.400 in a very real way when it isn't just the 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:11.040 people of color right and the quote unquote lives that 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:16.000 are being silenced. When you recognize that now they are 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.680 coming for you as well. And so now what are 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.120 you going to do? Jonathan and I get into this 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:29.520 conversation and so much more on this week's chat with 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:35.320 our in house doctor. Folks, you know that whenever we 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.839 have the opportunity each week to sit down with our 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:42.640 in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Mepzil, we are always leased. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.159 And you know by now you have all probably seen 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:56.320 a clip from a Tennessee hearing where moms women, white 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:00.280 women who are holding up signs quietly holding up signs 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:06.279 were forcibly removed from a courtroom that readily allows guns 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:11.160 and people's activated Second Amendment rights, but clearly not their 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.360 First Amendment rights, the right to assemble, the right to protest, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.200 and do so again. I want you to understand, quietly 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:25.800 just sitting and holding up a sign, Jonathan, give us 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:32.200 a picture into what we're seeing in this video that 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:33.320 has now gone viral. 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.880 Cool. Well, there are three things that I think people 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.719 need to know because there's a context to what happened 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.520 that people are kind of just seeing. And the first, 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.800 the first important thing is that this was part of 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.760 what what has been built for months as a special 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:55.640 session in the Tennessee State House basically to address firearms safety. 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.200 And the reason that that special session was going to 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.280 come up was that Governor Lee, our governor who was 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.040 among the most strident and you know, unflinching supporters of 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:11.240 guns everywhere and gun rights. He's signed a bill to 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.000 allow gun rights everywhere in a Burretta factory a couple 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.839 of years ago. He's done everything to overturn state gun laws. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:22.160 He's as pro gun as it gets. We had a 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.680 mass shooting at the Covenant School in Nashville last year. 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.800 People we talked about and it hit home for a 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.159 lot of people. It was a Christian school in the 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.839 middle of our town. A lot of people knew people there, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.680 including Governor Lee, who their family lost some friends in 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.080 that shooting. They were friends with some of the educators. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.640 I think the assistant principal or one of the principles 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:49.600 was killed who they knew, and other people, and it 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.839 was a moment of reckoning. Right. It's different to be 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.720 politics on one side, but when it hits home, people 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.720 feel often differently about these kind of things. And so 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.640 in the aftermath, there were protests. Remember there were people 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.520 in the streets, and Governor le said, it's time for 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.679 us to do something, and so he proposed a couple 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.680 of things. He proposed a watered down version of what's 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.480 called a red flag law, let's get hands out of 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:14.600 the guns, out of the hands of danger people. And 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.840 he proposed a special session, which was what was supposed 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.400 to happen earlier this week. And so he said, we're 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.240 going to set this thing for the end of August. Now, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:26.400 when he said, we're going to have a conversation about 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.760 gun safety and see if we can find some common ground. 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.600 This even for this guy who's so pro gun, put 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.360 a target on his back. And all the pro gun 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.280 people started coming out of the woodwork. The Tennessee Firearm Association, 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.440 the Proud Boys, the Youth Keepers, everybody who we've seen 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.440 on TV here this week started saying, no compromise whatsoever. 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.880 That's their position. No reform. Government has no role whatsoever 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:55.720 in this issue. And so finally he pushed through, we're 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.520 going to have this session. And so point number one 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.040 is this was part of that quote unquote special session. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.480 Number two is that the whole thing was a sham. 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.600 So I don't mean to laugh, it's very serious, but 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.000 it's just as we got closer and closer to the date, 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.920 what was being proposed really was pretty clearly just not 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.640 going to It wasn't about background checks, it wasn't about 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:21.880 rent flag laws, it wasn't about gun safety, it wasn't 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.200 about keeping guns out of school. The things that were 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:29.560 being proposed was increasing the mandatory sentence for juveniles conflcted 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:34.800 of crimes and not mandating anything and all these kind 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.640 of things. And so as this thing started heading toward 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.480 what was going to happen, people started getting upset because 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.640 they were like, wait, this isn't a session about anything 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.920 except for incarcerating young adults of color. Basically, that's what 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.960 that's what it was looking like. And so people started 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.880 getting mad. And then the third thing is, as that 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:58.080 started happening, the right wing conservative you saw them on 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:03.439 TV Tennessee en passed all these bogus bills that said 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:09.079 there'll be no expression, no conflict, no voicing of anything, 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.200 no loitering. They actually won't let anybody stand. They have 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.160 to be walking in the hallway. All these like ridiculous 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.520 bills that were clearly aimed at anybody who was coming 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:22.040 out in support of gun safety. And so initially people 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.680 were bringing posters in I mean, and the posters were heartbreaking. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.720 The posters were I lost a child in the Covenant 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.400 school shooting, or please let's save our children and stuff 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.600 like that. But they said no posters anything like that. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.640 So people started wearing T shirts and holding up little 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.440 you know, stuff on their iPhone or little pieces of paper. 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.240 Now again, as you say, this is a place where 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.760 you can carry a loaded gun into the chamber, but 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.760 not a piece of paper. So somebody held up a 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.439 piece of paper and they were escorted out, and ultimately 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.360 what we're seeing in this special session is the whole 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.719 thing was in fact to sham. The hearings that really 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:05.920 matter lasted thirty seconds or less. All this mobilization, all 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.439 this work, youth groups had come out in support of 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:14.319 gun safety, all these people had written briefs. I was 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.040 part of a brief, all these kind of things, None 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.120 of it really mattered. It was all a kind of 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.560 false front. And so we're left with this, which is 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.480 that at the end of the day, the rules against 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.400 protests are now stronger, the gun safety feels farther away, 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.079 and it really feels like a moment of boiling over 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.840 in Tennessee, honestly, because there is so much anger and 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:40.559 frustration that those moms holding up those signs represent seventy 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.280 five percent or more of the population who want people 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:48.080 to do something. And so I don't know, I've rambled 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:49.959 on a lot, but I do have one more take 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.319 on point here, which is I think the takeout point 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.840 is the government is not working for the people right 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.720 now in this regard. And everybody thinks of jerremandering as 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.680 like a Republican's win and Democrats lose, which is true. 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.280 But what we're seeing here is germandering also doesn't work 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.439 for Republicans. Right, seventy percent of everybody wants some kind 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.679 of gun safety, and that includes Republicans across the state, 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.199 but their political leaders are not beholden to them either. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:18.840 In other words, there's no way that these guys are 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.080 going to lose their seats, and so in a way, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.800 even Republicans now, even conservatives who are gun owners but 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.760 want some kind of regulation, so the next mass shooter 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.839 can't go to nine stores and buy nine guns. Kind 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.200 of similar to what we saw. Their political leaders are 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.880 not beholden to them either, and so in a way, 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:43.040 germandering destroys our system in a million ways. And it's 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.880 not just Democrats Republicans. It's also that elected leaders are 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.480 not beholden to even Republican voters who want some change now, 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.000 and so in a way, it's kind of a mirror 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.839 of the larger dysfunction of the American system. Now I 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.880 realized that was a fifteen I just went on. But 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.120 I feel very strongly about this and it's the topic 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:03.720 of my next pert. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.040 Yeah, Jonathan, this is why we have you on each week. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.720 And I think that you know a couple of things 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:12.959 came up and so I for me while you were 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.720 talking that I want to dig into. One is the 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.280 last point that you just made about gerrymandering. I think 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.840 that how that conversation has been framed for decades plus 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:30.120 has been the Republicans wanting to take away Democrats vote 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.760 and voice, right, and that, to your point, has been 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.400 the goal. But I think that as the Republican Party 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:45.000 has shifted into an authoritarian, white supremacist, patriarchal cult under 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.440 the leadership of Donald Trump, the goal is no longer 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.120 just to silence Democrats. That to your point, it is 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.160 to silence people in general, and to make you know, 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:03.160 fiefdoms of the state seats and city council seats, and 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:09.200 so that these people can govern without reproach, without having 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:16.040 to fight and work for people's votes. I want to 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.760 ask you, you know, you could see it partially from 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.679 the video. You could see these women shaking, right like 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:27.160 I'm assuming, shaking and anger, shaking in fear, you know, 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.480 for having to, you know, put up this this fight 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:36.680 for kids, right, What is the mood when you say 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.439 that seventy percent of the people in Tennessee want something 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:45.160 to happen and thirty percent much as is mirroring the nation, 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:51.080 thirty percent are instituting minority rule. What is the overall 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.320 mood when you say that Tennessee is at a boiling 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:56.240 point right now? 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:06.079 Well, I wish I had a concrete answer to that question, 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.240 right because I think part of the issue is that 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.080 I think a lot of people on the Democrat side 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:18.160 and on the centrist conservative Republican side feel like we've 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.720 done everything right. We've done everything within the system. We've guarded, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:32.840 we've gathered signatures, we've talked to elected leaders. The special 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.120 session was in some people. I mean, if you read 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.240 like the op ed in the New York Times earlier 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.880 this week, there's a Tennessee based columnist from the New 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.320 York Times who said, I have guarded optimism. And the 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.000 optimism wasn't just that there would begun reformed. The optimism 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:51.200 was that the system would actually work. The system would work. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.080 And so I think part of the issue is you 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.400 have this build up to saying, look, we've had all 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.680 this really messed up stuff happen, but now now in 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:02.880 the halls of Justice and the House of the People, 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.040 the system is going to work, and we're going to 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.240 show how we're responsive and the fact that then you 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:12.200 gabble that close after thirty three seconds. I think that 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.960 people are left with a couple of options. I mean, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:17.760 one is to tune out and say, man, the system, 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.240 there's nothing we can do. My new book that comes 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:25.240 out in January actually looks at Tennessee gun politics, and 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.600 I argue that we need to reboot the gun control 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.480 movement that arguing for red flag laws and trying to 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.120 convince people of background checks is always going to be 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.080 a loser. And so I argue that we need a 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.640 new approach to gun reform that is built on community 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:46.000 building communities that are safe. But I worry that the 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.680 frustration leads to people either checking out or getting frustrated 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:51.960 or not working within the system in a way that 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:56.240 creates this perpetuating cycle. And I honestly don't know. I 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.040 don't I get asked what's the answer all the time, 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.600 and I don't know if the system I mean think 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:01.920 cause I'm. 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.560 Like, because Jonathan, I'm just thinking, like, and I know this. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.840 You know your your your second book in January is 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.400 about this. So we'll get into more detail about that 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.440 as you get closer to your publishing date. But like 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.520 the reality is that these people are trying to work 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.800 within the system. Right, when you had the Justines that 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:29.200 were expelled from this state House for daring to protest 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:36.040 and show support with their constituency, they fought withinside of 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.560 the system to get their rightful seat elected seats back, right, 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.680 you have these people that are saying, I have a 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.680 right to protest, I have a right to stand up 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.440 for children and safety in my community, and they're being 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.600 expelled right in the same way that the Justins were 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.840 being expelled. So how do you how do you tell 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.520 people to continue operating inside of a system that is 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:08.120 not representative of the people and not interested in collaboration. 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.680 They're not interested in coming to the table because they're 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:16.440 saying there is you're trying to negotiate with terrorists. That's 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:17.159 what this is. 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:19.800 Right, No, that is kind of my point, and I'm 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.040 sorry I didn't make it clear enough. I think the question, 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.399 the ethical question for people is do you keep working 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.040 within the system? Do you keep trying to work within 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.000 the system, or do you work outside the system. And 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:30.880 I think. 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.280 You know, I'm going to be I'm gonna be honest 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.120 with you, and I'm gonna say and I'm gonna say 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.399 the thing that is that is not popular, and I 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.160 mean it figular figuratively, but I think that you burn 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.239 down the fucking system. The system does not work. It 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.679 does not work for the seventy percent of people in 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:50.879 this country. It does not work for the seventy percent 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.199 of people in Tennessee that want to be able to 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.119 go to houses of worship and send their kids to 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.119 school and like go along their daily lives without like 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.560 the potential of being shot and killed. And so I'm like, 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.760 so if the system, if you're trying to tell people 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.359 to vote, tell them to get elected officials that matter, 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.000 and the system has been rigged so that those elected 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.320 officials are no longer beholden to the constituents, I'm like, 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.440 what is where's the recourse? 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.640 No, you hear me hemming and huyeing and sighing right now. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.480 And the reason I am is because I understand that 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.959 response fully, But I also worry that burning down the 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:32.520 system leads to more fascism. I feel like burning down 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:36.159 the system gives the justification. I mean, look at what 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:41.080 happened after Black Lives Matter and George Floyd and everything. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.480 It's like, if we consistently live in fear of what 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.880 we are are, what we are, of what we believe. 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.200 The response is going to be for us taking justice 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.680 into our own hands. Do you know what I'm saying? 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.640 You never move the needle forward, Like I can't live 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.679 a life and tell people to live a life in 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.560 reaction to what Republicans are going to do. Because regardless 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.320 of what the people do, if they do it peacefully 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.040 with a sign, if they burn down a fucking gas station, 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.760 if they you know, haul out into the street, if 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.399 they boycott, Republicans are going to do what they're going 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.320 to do. And so I just I guess I'm at 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.680 a point and I feel for the people in Tennessee, 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.480 just like I feel for people all across this country 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.680 that just want to live safe. You know, that's what 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:32.360 freedom should look like. Freedom should look like safety, I. 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.919 Mean, just for me. And again, the reason I'm hesitant 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.600 about like is because for me, there's a real difference 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.000 of who wins the next the twenty four election, like 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.040 it really really matters, and not that we're going to 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.840 win Tennessee, but but I would just say for me, like, 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.800 there's no way and there's no way I'm voting for 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.879 Corno West. I'm not voting for RFK Junior. I'm voting 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.800 for whoever the Democratic nominee is because there's a because 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.960 I don't know, giving up on the system right now 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.160 serves interests that are not my interests. Maybe after twenty 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.040 four when what we're seeing in Tennessee is everywhere, maybe 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.760 down the road or something like that. But I just 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.760 I still feel like elections matter. Maybe not this particular 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.480 Tennessee a thing, But so the question for me is, 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.200 how can you say the system sucks and we all 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.920 feel disheartened and clearly here's an example of how it's 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.439 weighted against us, and also show up and vote for 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.640 Democrats in twenty four because having Trump as president would 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:40.320 be a material difference to people's lives. So that's kind 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:41.800 of I don't know. Do you see that question? 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.280 I think, yeah, I think that For me, it isn't 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.600 what I'm saying to burn down the system. It is 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:51.160 obvious right now that the only thing that is holding 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:57.520 back fascism in this country is the executive brand, right 0:20:57.640 --> 0:20:59.800 like that, that is the only thing that is holding back. 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:03.560 So I'm not saying with regard to the national election, oh, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.280 people don't vote in twenty twenty four. I think people 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.000 are very well aware that this is going to be 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.280 you know, they thought twenty twenty was consequential, that twenty 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.920 twenty four is life or death, and so I think 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:19.000 that that is clear. But I'm really talking about people 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.000 who are living inside of these red states where their 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:27.720 votes and their voices don't matter. And so my point being, 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.680 how do you continue to tell people to show up 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.760 at these meetings and like work within a system that 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.200 is absolutely rigged like I you know, and of course 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.200 what would the normal recourse be take these motherfuckers to court? 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.439 But the court system is also rigged. And so I'm like, 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:50.760 at what point right in these states do the people 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:54.879 say we got to find another path because this path 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:57.760 is blocked. And that's what I'm saying is just like 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:02.119 if seventy percent of people in Tennis believe that freedom 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:07.560 is equated to an equal to safety and the people 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.160 that are in power is saying fuck you and your safety, 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:12.800 and you're saying, well, I'm going to come to your 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:14.639 next meeting and I'm going to protest, and they're going 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:18.320 to say no, because the next meeting, we're locking the doors, right, 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.600 And there's nobody for you to vote for, because we've 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.800 rigged and you know, and put our tipped our hand 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:27.200 on the scale. I'm just like, so, what are they 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.840 supposed to do? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.760 they walked out of schools, they took over the state capital. 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:34.800 What the fuck else are they supposed to do? 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.080 I like what David Hoge is doing right now. I 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:46.320 think a movement that starts mobilizing the youth anger about 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.600 this issue and about climate and about all these other 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:57.440 factors and does I'm torn by being a historian, right, 0:22:57.480 --> 0:22:59.800 I know that Tennessee was a democratic state. I know 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:01.720 that that al Gore came from Tennessee. I know that 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.080 there are centrist traditions in Tennessee. Now I'm not like, oh, 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:06.359 let's go back to the good old days, but I 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:08.399 do know that the ways that the right wing, this 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:10.200 is what I'll show in my next book, The Ways 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:13.160 the right wing took power in Red States, was a 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.200 fifty year movement that started from grassroots elections for school 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.719 boards and zoning boards and election boards and all these 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.400 kind of things, and it became inevitable. But it wasn't 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.480 always inevitable. The NRA was a grassroots movement for a 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.720 very long time, and so I do want to highlight 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:34.320 that there are movements like the Young Leaders program that 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.960 David and other people are doing that is specifically looking 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:42.639 at having people under thirty run for local positions in 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.440 red states, for school boards, for zoning boards, stuff like that. 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.439 And I guess I know that's in the system, but 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.280 I think that's a great idea, which is like, let's 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:54.600 see how the other side took power and let's reverse that, 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.160 which is building a power base from the bottom up, 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:01.879 which I think think would be really challenging to the 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:04.400 power structure of a place like Tennessee because it's, as 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:08.000 we saw from these things, a bunch of older, conservative 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.959 white people. But I think if young people start running 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.359 for all these offices and really start mobilizing, I would 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:17.840 think I would think that that would have a real impact. 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.480 So that's my centrist in the system statement of support 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:27.520 for this new organization. But for me, I think that 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:29.640 that's a strategy that I would support. Does that make 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.359 sense now? 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:34.560 I mean, it does make sense, And I think that 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:41.920 you know, again, we're looking at fifty years that are lost, right, 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:47.000 fifty years of rebuilding, and that again is only so 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:51.640 if democracy holds right. And so I guess, like I'm 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:55.960 at a point in my thinking around this where, yes, 0:24:56.200 --> 0:25:01.000 I believe that everything happens from the grassroots. How Democrats 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:06.560