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Speaker 1: go to Nancy's beats dot com. Today Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one two. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine coming home from school as a college student

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Speaker 1: and finding your mom dead, not only dead, but by suicide?

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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us with me Pamela for Crime Stories, investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned forensics expert, Professor of Forensics

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Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist

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Speaker 1: and host of the hit series Investigation Discoveries. Fatal vows

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Speaker 1: straight out to Pamela for what happened. Well. On August

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Speaker 1: of last year, police came to a home there in Corning,

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Speaker 1: New York. At the time, they didn't release any information

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Speaker 1: except for this woman. A forty six year old woman

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Speaker 1: was found hanging inside of her home. Her fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old daughter was at the residence at the time. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They thought it was suspicious circumstances. But that's all they

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Speaker 1: knew at the time, and they started to investigate. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Carrie was the older daughter. She's twenty years old. She

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Speaker 1: goes to college in North Brunswick, New Jersey. Uh she

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Speaker 1: Rochester Institute of Technology. So she has everything going for her.

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Speaker 1: She has her whole future ahead of her. Um. Michelle

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Speaker 1: Writer who was the woman who died. She was married

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Speaker 1: to Lloyd, but they were divorced. Uh, and he was

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Speaker 1: not anywhere close to the home. Apparently at the time

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Speaker 1: when police showed up to the house. Just stuck on

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Speaker 1: what you first said, I'm stuck on what your first

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Speaker 1: sad Pamela for her to Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist,

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Speaker 1: host of Discoveries Fatal Vows. Dr Brian I recall as

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Speaker 1: a little girl, we did not know the word suicide. Now, sadly,

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Speaker 1: my ten year olds have heard the word suicide and

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Speaker 1: I had to tell him what it was. But I

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Speaker 1: remember going to school there was a young girl cute

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Speaker 1: as a button my age, and another girl just equally

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Speaker 1: cute that was my sister's age, and I knew they

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Speaker 1: didn't have a mom. I didn't know any more than that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think about it. I guess at that age

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Speaker 1: you don't think about where's Billy's mommy, you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't really think about it that way. Because we were

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Speaker 1: all on the public school bus. They didn't have the

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Speaker 1: drop off in the pickup, you know, so we we

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Speaker 1: didn't ever think anything. It was only until I think

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Speaker 1: I was in college before my mom told me. It

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Speaker 1: just came up in conversation that they're mom had committed

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Speaker 1: suicide and they lived with no mom, and with that

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Speaker 1: they came home and found her dead. And I know

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Speaker 1: from having a very dear friend commits suicide that you

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Speaker 1: you think, Wow, what what could I have done to

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Speaker 1: stop this? And when you're a child, I can only

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Speaker 1: imagine how this affected them to come home and find

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Speaker 1: mommy had committed suicide. Yeah, And and for a child,

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Speaker 1: there's sort of an added element of a sense of abandonment.

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Speaker 1: You know why, no matter how bad things were for

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Speaker 1: the person who apparently committed suicide, the parent, why did

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Speaker 1: they Why were they willing to leave me? To get

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Speaker 1: away from it? And and it almost creates, it almost

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Speaker 1: begs the thought and the kid of well, I must

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Speaker 1: have been part of what was so intolerable about this life.

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Speaker 1: That just hurts me. That hurts me so much to

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Speaker 1: hear you say that, And I know that what you're

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Speaker 1: saying is correct. Brian Russell, Joseph Scott Morgan. I have

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Speaker 1: seen your awesome son, and you've met the twins. I

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Speaker 1: remember I had to be gone and I've got it

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Speaker 1: is coming up again. I'm gonna have to be gone Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: four nights, okay, and I lay everything out their clothes

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Speaker 1: for every day, Andy socks, play clause, school snacks, blah blah,

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Speaker 1: the works, and I call home Joe Scott, and my

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Speaker 1: daughter will say so her dad and my mother who

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Speaker 1: lived with us, can't hear pop. Wow, I feel so bad.

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Speaker 1: I feel awful being away. I just can't imagine if

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Speaker 1: my children came home one day and I was gone forever,

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Speaker 1: and not only that I did it myself. It's uh,

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Speaker 1: you kids, you know, in in this position like this,

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Speaker 1: I've been too many homes over the course of my career,

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Speaker 1: you know, and have worked, have worked cases where people

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Speaker 1: have taken their own life, and it's it's so difficult

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Speaker 1: even for the adult children because just like uh, Dr

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Speaker 1: Russell said, Uh, everyone asked those questions and there is

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Speaker 1: this this this chasm, this gulf, this bottomless pit of abandonment,

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Speaker 1: that that that you feel because you you they try

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Speaker 1: to understand, Uh, why is it, uh that that you left?

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Speaker 1: And what another thing that I see that spikes up?

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Speaker 1: You know, in these cases I worked over the years,

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Speaker 1: Uh is there is a residual anger uh that comes

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Speaker 1: about and it seems is you know, I would have

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Speaker 1: people working at the medical Examiner's office. I'd be there

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Speaker 1: late at night and I'd have I remember I had

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Speaker 1: one fellow that was still calling me seven years after

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Speaker 1: the fact about a suicide and his family. He just

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Speaker 1: couldn't wrap his mind around it. And uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: i'd refer in counceling everything else because I was work

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Speaker 1: in other cases. But sometimes I just sit there and

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Speaker 1: listen and it's it's a hopeless it's a hopelessness that says, well,

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Speaker 1: this is what I know. That this girl comes home

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Speaker 1: from college and finds her mom has hung herself. And

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Speaker 1: Pamela for joining me Crime Stories investigative reporter. There two

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Speaker 1: daughters in the home, right, Uh, there's the twenty year

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Speaker 1: old Carrie, and then there's another sister, right, yeah, fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old daughter. Yeah, who's there in the home at

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Speaker 1: the time when the police came to the house and

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Speaker 1: her mom was found hanging there in the house? My

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Speaker 1: stars four years, Oh my goodness. To Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: how do you when there's family in the home when

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Speaker 1: the suicide occurs, what do you do with the with

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Speaker 1: the family? I mean, I know they want to get

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Speaker 1: to the body, especially your mom. You want to try

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Speaker 1: to save her. Well, from an investigative standpoint, let me

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Speaker 1: let me just lay it out, and it's it's gonna

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Speaker 1: sound it's gonna sound really really cold and cruel, but

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Speaker 1: from an investor, because you only get one shot at

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Speaker 1: at working a death scene, and our working assumption, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: is that every and I don't mean some, I don't

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Speaker 1: mean you know, uh, you know, an arbitrary few. I

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Speaker 1: mean all all deaths are considered a homicide until proven

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Speaker 1: otherwise because you cannot go back and rework the case.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, that is so true. I was just with

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Speaker 1: doctor Oz this past week talking about how the case

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Speaker 1: was bought to the get go on, John Boney Ramsey. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole, but

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Speaker 1: you're so right. But in this case, it was so

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Speaker 1: obviously hanging death by suicide. So what how would you

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Speaker 1: process How do you handle a scene like that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do you process the body? What do you do

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Speaker 1: to you know, ensure it was a suicide? The first

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Speaker 1: thing you have to do. And apparently they did this, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: They took care at the scene because there are certain

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Speaker 1: things that we look for. So we're gonna take a

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Speaker 1: look at the injury around the neck. In this particular case,

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Speaker 1: they're talking about hanging, Nancy, So that would be what's

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Speaker 1: for two as a ligature mark and that's a deep furrow,

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Speaker 1: and the position of that mark on the neck is

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Speaker 1: going to be the telling sign as to whether or

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Speaker 1: not this is homicide or suicide and or something else. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is what we also know, Pamela for investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: joining us, is that there have been several calls two

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Speaker 1: police to come to the home for domestic problems. But

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Speaker 1: the father wasn't living there, so it wasn't him, right,

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Speaker 1: wasn't living there? Um, it wasn't him that we know of.

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Speaker 1: Police aren't releasing much information. We don't know if whether

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Speaker 1: or not he had a history of any kind of

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Speaker 1: violence with Michelle, the mother, the one who died. We

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Speaker 1: don't know if maybe he was still trying to uh

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Speaker 1: come after her, I mean at some point obviously they

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Speaker 1: were married at some point. So we're not sure where

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Speaker 1: those domestic abuse calls came from. Police aren't releasing that information,

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Speaker 1: but we do know there was a history, not of

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Speaker 1: one call, of several calls to that home. Well, I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you what Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologists and

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Speaker 1: hosts of investigation Discoveries Fatal Vow series, that's what it

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Speaker 1: sounds like to me. You know, when you have a

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Speaker 1: domestic report, and I've seen so many that escalated into

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Speaker 1: felony when you have them. The alleged perpetrator is right

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Speaker 1: on the police report, says husband allegedlie beat wife. We

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Speaker 1: observe wife with bruises and crying, bleeding, and we made

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Speaker 1: the man leave. Blah blah. You see it in the

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Speaker 1: police report. But here we don't know who was the

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Speaker 1: perpetrator of alleged domestic violence. But hold everybody's horses. Because

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Speaker 1: the girls were juveniles, two girls, one mom in the home.

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Speaker 1: Who is beating who? Who is threatening who? Because the

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Speaker 1: police reports apparently don't reveal it. They don't reveal it,

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Speaker 1: we can't decipher that. We have not been able to

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Speaker 1: learn that is it because one of the juveniles was

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator and therefore it's not on the police report.

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Speaker 1: Dr Russell, that's possible. I think one thing for sure

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Speaker 1: is that those kids who were in that house when

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Speaker 1: the police were called to the home. No. And it's

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Speaker 1: additionally abusive. I think when parents allow abused to go

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Speaker 1: on or perpetrate abuse in the presence of kids, because

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Speaker 1: it puts them not only in physical and emotional danger,

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Speaker 1: but it puts them in the horrible position. If there

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Speaker 1: it does, you know, to come the need for them

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Speaker 1: to explain what happened in the house. It's traumatic to

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Speaker 1: have to do that. Then everything takes an unusual twist.

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan forensics expert. We know that there were

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Speaker 1: deep furrows on the mom's neck from her apparent hanging,

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Speaker 1: her suicide. Then what happened Joe Scott. Apparently the police

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Speaker 1: did not Uh, the investigators did not agree with what

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Speaker 1: they're in this This is the problemacy on many of

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Speaker 1: these cases. You will have family members that will say

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Speaker 1: to you when you walk onto a scene, they will say,

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Speaker 1: this is a suicide, or they'll say, my family member

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Speaker 1: committed suicide. And apparently, in this particular case, uh, when

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Speaker 1: they began to examine this woman's body, both at the

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Speaker 1: scene and back at the medical examiner's office, the two

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Speaker 1: things did not compute. Then we learn fast forward to

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Speaker 1: the dad, Lloyd ni Rider, just forty six years old,

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Speaker 1: up on the top of a roof of a parking garage,

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Speaker 1: threatening to jump, trying to escape off the top of

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Speaker 1: a parking garage to Pamela for investigative reporter, why is

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Speaker 1: Lloyd ni rider on top of a parking garage, a

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Speaker 1: multi level parking garage. I mean, he's the only parent

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Speaker 1: these two girls have left. What's he doing up there

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Speaker 1: and trying to jump to get away from police. That's

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Speaker 1: a very good question. I mean, last week, search warrants

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Speaker 1: were issued not only for the home where Michelle's body

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Speaker 1: was found, but Lloyd's home as well and a daughter's home.

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Speaker 1: Lloyd's home was being investigated in New Jersey. That's where

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Speaker 1: he lived in New north Unswick. They didn't find him

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Speaker 1: in his house, but because people were looking for him,

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Speaker 1: the Princeton Police Department in New Jersey found him parked

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Speaker 1: in a garage. He was in his car and as

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Speaker 1: police approached him, he got out of that car and

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Speaker 1: he ran to the ledge on top of the parking garage,

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Speaker 1: stood there and threatened to jump, and they tried to

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Speaker 1: talk him down. They couldn't talk him down, so the

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Speaker 1: police went ahead and got him, grabbed him to take

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Speaker 1: They tackled him and it's tackled him yep. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: there he was Joseph Scott Morgan holding himself hostage. And

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Speaker 1: I always think of O. J. Simpson, you know, riding

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Speaker 1: along in his white broncho with allegedly we only have A. C.

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Speaker 1: Colling's word for it, holding a gun to his own head,

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Speaker 1: threatening that if police didn't quit following him, he would

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Speaker 1: kill himself. He was holding himself hostage. So here we

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Speaker 1: have it again. Lead me alone, I'll jump. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's basically holding himself hostage on top of a parking deck.

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Speaker 1: It never works when you hold yourself hostage. Joe Scott, No, no,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. Uh. And it seems like in all of

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Speaker 1: these cases, and I don't know for anybody else in

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Speaker 1: the audience, but I've actually been trapped in traffic, uh,

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Speaker 1: because people are threatening to jump off of a viaduct

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Speaker 1: over over Interstate Highway for hours and hours and hours,

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Speaker 1: and it seems inevitably that they always get the person.

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Speaker 1: Are you actually complaining that a person about to kill

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Speaker 1: themselves slow down your community? Am I hearing that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I sure am, and definitively, uh, particularly when I know

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Speaker 1: in in one particular case where I was sitting there,

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Speaker 1: there was a guy that was scheduled to do he

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Speaker 1: was a neuro search and he was trying to get

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Speaker 1: to the hospital to do brain surgery and was trapped

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Speaker 1: in the same traffic gym and person died. So it's

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Speaker 1: uh uh just a marketly selfish event to engage. Well,

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Speaker 1: here you go. Here's the bombshell. Two suspects make this

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Speaker 1: woman's death look like a suicide to suspects, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that the father,

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Speaker 1: Lloyd ny Rider, is one of those suspects. The other

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Speaker 1: her daughter Pamela for please tell me I'm wrong. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: you're not wrong. But let's be clear. It's the twenty

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Speaker 1: year old daughter, not the younger fourteen year old at

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Speaker 1: this point, it's the twenty year old who's attending college

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Speaker 1: at Rochester Institute of Technology. She was arrested for murder

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Speaker 1: by the Corning Police along with the father. Uh. She

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Speaker 1: was taken into custody. She didn't have any issues like

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Speaker 1: her father did. She was arranged. She's in jail without

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Speaker 1: bond right now, but she's pleading not guilty. At this point,

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Speaker 1: she's not really talking to anybody. Uh So we don't

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Speaker 1: know what kind of motive there would have been. We

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Speaker 1: also don't know what they found when they issued those

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Speaker 1: search warrants that led them to arrest Carrie. But that's

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Speaker 1: the bombshell the twenty year old daughter may have tried

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Speaker 1: to fake uh the suicide and instead of it's a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows. You know, I

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Speaker 1: remember as a little girl waking up first thing in

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Speaker 1: the morning to get ready for school, getting up at

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Speaker 1: a quarter of seven, and when I would go into

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Speaker 1: the kitchen, there would be three plates of grits and

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Speaker 1: hot coffee, half coffee, half milk for us to drink,

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Speaker 1: everything laid out, and my mother would be long gone

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Speaker 1: to work. She would get home in the evening. I

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Speaker 1: could remember, like it was right now, blowing the horn

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Speaker 1: coming up the driveway to come in and egg dinner,

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Speaker 1: and we would all be together as a family. And

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Speaker 1: now I think back on what the toll that took

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Speaker 1: on her, and it was her and my dad, but

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Speaker 1: mostly my mom. At night when I'd be sick, feeding

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Speaker 1: me ice chips to get my fever down, it would

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Speaker 1: be her helping me rehearse my four age presentations, you know,

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Speaker 1: both of them, with me helping me through. Even up

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Speaker 1: until when I was a prosecutor driving to Atlanta, when

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Speaker 1: I would be out at four and five in the morning,

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Speaker 1: trying to rouse to witnesses out of their crack houses

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Speaker 1: to come to court. They would be there. They would

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Speaker 1: come to court watch me try that case all and

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Speaker 1: when my children were born and the three of us

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Speaker 1: nearly died, they were there. I mean, how could you

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Speaker 1: turn on your own mother, Brian. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that talking about these cases does for people like you

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Speaker 1: and me, I think, is it really reminds us of

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Speaker 1: what wonderful gifts we got from parents who were there

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Speaker 1: for us. Both of them were saying and committed to

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Speaker 1: each other and to us. But in answer to your question,

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Speaker 1: fatal Vas has been on the air now for five seasons.

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Speaker 1: We've we've made dozens and dozens of episodes, but not

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of episodes. And I've seen this more

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Speaker 1: than once. I've seen this in more than one of

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Speaker 1: our episodes, where a parent actually enlists one of their

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Speaker 1: children to kill that child's other parents, and you just think,

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Speaker 1: my god, you think it's the height of depravity when

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Speaker 1: you see just the murder, and then you realize that

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Speaker 1: not only was this person so sociopathic, so narcissistic as

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Speaker 1: to commit murder for whatever selfish reasons they had, but

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Speaker 1: also to ruin their child's character, ruin their child's life.

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Speaker 1: And it might even be worse in this case because

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Speaker 1: the fourteen year old daughter apparently at least was in

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Speaker 1: the house. It's tough to imagine this all happening without

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Speaker 1: the fourteen year old having some idea that something very

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Speaker 1: profoundly horrible was occurring in the house. She may end

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Speaker 1: up having to be a witness now, at the very

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Speaker 1: least to this. Right now, I'm bringing it back home,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott. To those two little girls, I remember them

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Speaker 1: right now. They were so cute. And I remember when

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Speaker 1: I my mom finally told me that their mom had

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Speaker 1: committed suicide. I said why, and she said, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Because there was a really popular radio show and uh

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Speaker 1: on w my z is, I can't remember anymore, and

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Speaker 1: um the slug and was keep on keeping on. And

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Speaker 1: this mom would call in to the radio show all

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Speaker 1: the time and talk and she was funny and witty

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Speaker 1: and smart. You know, Dr Russell, when we say why,

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Speaker 1: you don't know, But there does have to be a

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Speaker 1: why for suicide. But for this fourteen year old girl

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Speaker 1: to go through thinking her mom had left her own

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Speaker 1: purpose and committed suicide to now learn her father and

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Speaker 1: sister are charged in mom's murder. What could possibly be

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Speaker 1: the motive? You know, it's bad enough in in all

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Speaker 1: of the fatal vast cases involving children, I always talk

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Speaker 1: about how, you know, the children are essentially orphaned because

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Speaker 1: one parents dead and the other one usually is in

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Speaker 1: prison for life or decades at least. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about this girl's entire family. So here's this dad, who,

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Speaker 1: if he's guilty, allegedly was willing for whatever selfish reasons

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Speaker 1: of his own and he's mad at his ex wife

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Speaker 1: for whatever myriad of reasons people have to be mad

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Speaker 1: at their exes. He's willing to destroy his daughter's life

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Speaker 1: who participated, who, if she's guilty, will be you know,

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Speaker 1: a sin actually having her life over. And then also

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Speaker 1: the fourteen year old to to not only orphan her

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Speaker 1: but basically take away her entire family. Just the profoundness

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Speaker 1: of the narcissism of that, uh, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: then the big act that the big Swan song of

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Speaker 1: threatening to do a swan dive off the parking garage.

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Speaker 1: I'm with Joe Scott on that, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure I would have worked really hard to talk him down.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you just the way this whole thing has

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Speaker 1: played out. I don't know if we know this yet.

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Speaker 1: Pamela Fir invest to get every reporter, But who has

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Speaker 1: the fourteen year old? What's going to happen to her?

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Speaker 1: Now that the dead Lloyd ni Rider and the twenty

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Speaker 1: year old daughter, Carrie ni Rider have both been arrested,

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Speaker 1: Where's the fourteen year old? Who's taking care of her?

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Speaker 1: It's my understanding that she's with other family members, but

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Speaker 1: I don't have the details on which family member, if

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Speaker 1: it's a you know, a brother or grandparents of Michelle.

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Speaker 1: But it's my understanding she is with family members. But

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Speaker 1: I would like to point out something else you brought

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Speaker 1: it up earlier, Nancy, about the domestic abuse calls at

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Speaker 1: Michelle's home. My question, as you pointed out now, it

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Speaker 1: may not have been Lloyd the father, but carry the

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Speaker 1: twenty year old. Could there have been domestic violence with

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Speaker 1: one of the daughters that they saw for several years

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Speaker 1: and it came to a head with something like this,

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Speaker 1: and that the fourteen year old was exposed to that

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Speaker 1: as she was growing up, so she she is this

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old is gonna have a lot of damnage.

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Speaker 1: You know what, Pamela, You are so right and right

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Speaker 1: now I am just saying a prayer for that fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old little nigh Rider girl. He was going to

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Speaker 1: live the rest of her life without her mother and

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Speaker 1: very likely if police are to be believed without her

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Speaker 1: father and sister. God be with that child and we

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Speaker 1: are watching as justice un false switching gears. You know,

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Speaker 1: I got up at five o'clock this morning, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 1: You know the twins because they had a big project.

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Speaker 1: Do you today, Jo Scott? Why can't you they just

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Speaker 1: read a book and write a book report? Is that?

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Speaker 1: I have no idea. It takes three people from M

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Speaker 1: I T to try to work out some kind of

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Speaker 1: project that they have never found out about it until

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Speaker 1: the night. Well, I'm supposed to be going online reading

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Speaker 1: the website, but I mean, if I work on one

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Speaker 1: more diorama or shoe box story or this time it

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Speaker 1: was comic strips, no offense. I know the teachers are

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Speaker 1: trying to make them bring in their creativity, but one

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Speaker 1: who will not be identified, just does it no problem.

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Speaker 1: The other we have to bargain and beg and hide

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Speaker 1: the iPad and blah blah blah. Anyway, my point is

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Speaker 1: I was up at five o'clock making sure everything was

390
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Speaker 1: And now we are heading across the country. A small

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00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: town wife and mom found dead in the street, not

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00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: far from her own home she shared with her husband

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Speaker 1: and little child. A neighbor finds her and the condition

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00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: of her body. She's wearing nothing but a sports bra

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00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: and the scene looks so stage, but side her is

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Speaker 1: a liquor bottle with this is first thing in the morning,

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00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: with a cell phone lying neatly arranged directly on top

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00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: of the liquor bottle as if please see me. Joining

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Speaker 1: me from Radar online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis terres Chuck.

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Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell from Discoveries Fatal Vows, Joseph Scott Morgan

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00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: forensics expert to you, Alexis torres Chuck. There's been a

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00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: break in the case, but let's take it from the beginning.

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00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: Tell me how Kathleen West, who's just absolutely gorgeous. How

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Speaker 1: this mom, the suburban soccer mom, is found dead outside

429
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: her home in the street, half naked with a cell

430
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: phone and a liquor bottle. So a neighbor is out

431
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: in there neighborhood in about six o'clock in the morning

432
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: and they spot this horrifying scene. But this is their neighbor,

433
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: this woman, Kathleen, and she is face and she is

434
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: only as you said, she's only wearing sports bra. She

435
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: is naked everywhere else and passed out on the street

436
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 1: with blood everywhere, huge gash on her head. And so

437
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: she was discovered by a name She's She's not far

438
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: from her house at all. Now. It's a very small

439
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: town of Selera, and she was the prettiest and the

440
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: most youthful looking mom in the neighborhood and at the school.

441
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: On Facebook, she describes herself as a full time wife

442
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: and mommy, a neighbor's daughter. As Alexis is telling us,

443
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: was up on our way to work and finds a

444
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: dead body. To Dr Brian Russell Investigation Discoveries Fatal Vows

445
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: Star Brian, you're the psychologist. That's certainly something you never forget.

446
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: I mean I haven't forgotten a single one of the

447
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: dead bodies that I you know, represented the victims in

448
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: and felonies. I remember every single one of them, uh,

449
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, for many different reasons, often odd reasons, like

450
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: I recall this is funny odd, Dr Brian. I remember

451
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: them for odd reasons, like I remember one young teen boy.

452
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: He was killed from a carjacking. But what I remember

453
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: about him is that when a neighbor heard the shooting,

454
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: they ran out with a pillow and put it under

455
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: the boy's head as he died. I remember old woman

456
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: whose husband hit her in the head and burned the

457
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: house down, and when police drove up, he was lounging

458
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: a romanesque and the yard across the street, and they

459
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: talked to him five minutes before he said, oh yeah,

460
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: my wife's in there. I mean, they just odd things. Um.

461
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: I remember about all those murder trials. But in this

462
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: particular case, what about the neighbor's daughter, who's the one

463
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: that finds the body? Dr Brian. For you as a prosecutor,

464
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: and for people like my brother who are firefighters E.

465
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: M T s. People who like my dad who are

466
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: who are cops, you know, they unfortunately as part of

467
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: their career, they're gonna come across a number of deceased people.

468
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: For most individuals that fortunately, that is not a routine

469
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: part of their jobs or their lives. And so it's

470
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: it's shocking enough just to come across a deceased individual,

471
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: and then you overlay on top of that the additional

472
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: shock of realizing this isn't just a deceased human being.

473
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: That's shocking enough. This is somebody I know. This is

474
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: somebody from my neighborhood. This is somebody I used to

475
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: pass and say hi to on the street, maybe as

476
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: recently as yesterday. We also are learning to Joseph Scott Morgan,

477
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: forensics expert professor at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott um,

478
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: she we now know was bleeding from her head. So

479
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: this is the manner of death, bleeding from the head

480
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: on the street, half naked, seen staged, early morning hours.

481
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: Speak to those circumstances. For one thing, we can pretty

482
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: much rule out of suicide because I mean, if you

483
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: study it, the method and assessment of homicide and suicide,

484
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: it's a cold day and h E double l that

485
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: a female kills herself and this is across all races

486
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: and ages and socio economic status without her clothes on.

487
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: It may be innate, it may be ingrained, but that

488
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: says to me right there, she did not kill herself

489
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: by shooting herself out in the neighborhood. Half dressed. Women

490
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: typically don't even do that in the privacy of their home,

491
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: much less they don't shoot themselves in the head or

492
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: the face area. It's just that's just to satistical, uh truth.

493
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: So what does this say what we're learning about the

494
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: crime scene? Say to you before I give you the bobshell,

495
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: just just the fact that you've come across a woman

496
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: that is, uh, you know, wearing only a sports brought

497
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: and nothing else that in and of itself out in

498
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: an open, exposed area. It's gonna give me pause to

499
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: think that first off, when I look at this, that

500
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: it could be first off, something sexual in nature. Uh

501
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: that's going on because of the condition, the status of

502
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: the body's clothing or absence thereof. And also what what's

503
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: the significance of of her body being um, being in

504
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: front of her home. I think that that's that's very

505
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: important here as opposed to we don't just have a

506
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: deceased attractive woman here in uh in uh less than

507
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: normal dress. We've got a woman that's dead in front

508
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: of her home. If this was something else, why wasn't

509
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: her body removed? Why wasn't out of sight? No one

510
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: has taken the opportunity to hide the body, you know,

511
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: seclude the body in some way. So it raises a

512
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: myriad of questions Nancy. Well, typically when it is someone

513
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: that you know, they hide the body. I mean, you

514
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: don't sneak to kill somebody and then leave the body

515
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: in playing view. If it's a carjack or an arm

516
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: robbery that turns out to be a murderer, typically the

517
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: body will be lating right there because the person takes off,

518
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: but you know, gets out of the scene as fast

519
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: as they can. So here we have the dichotomy of

520
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: the woman being close to home, which you would make

521
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: you look at the husband, who was not a suspect

522
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: by the way, or a person of interest. But if

523
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: it were the husband, why would he leave the body

524
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: out in playing view. That's the more indicative of a

525
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: random killing, not the husband, So it lanes towards it

526
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: not being had to hold on Alexis to rest Chuck,

527
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Radar Online dot com. What's the Cougar Club

528
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: and how does that fit into this scenario. So, Kathleen West,

529
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: as you said, wholesome mom, prettiest mommy in the school, beautiful,

530
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 1: beautiful year old woman was a member of the Cougar Club.

531
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: And this is an online subscription only for adults only

532
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: club where women who were over the age of thirty

533
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: five post sexy pictures of themselves that are sexy selfies,

534
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, showing them in bikinis and show him in Alexis,

535
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: if I like, if I look like this woman, I

536
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: might post to Let me just tell you this a

537
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: couple of years Well, it was ten years ago, and um,

538
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: I was pregnant, but I had not revealed that yet.

539
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: I was about three months pregnant, and I I was

540
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: on a show. I think I told you the story

541
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: Alexis when you were pregnant. I was on I I

542
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: can't even remember what show was on, but anyway, it

543
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: was in a commercial break and I had a blazer

544
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: and a blouse and jeans and my boots that I'm

545
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: wearing right now, and I leaned over to get a

546
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: tissue that was sitting on the table in front of

547
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: me on the set somebody took a picture of me

548
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: leaning over and of course my tummy came over my jeans,

549
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: and the Globe posted it, which is there right under

550
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: the First Amendment, beside Jack Nicholson, who was very obese

551
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: at that time and put anchors away a w E.

552
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: I of course wasn't mortified, because you know there's that

553
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: old addics there's no such thing as bad press. Well,

554
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now that is not true

555
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: since that time, Dr Brian Russell, maybe I need a

556
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: private session with you. I take the twins to the

557
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: swimming pool. I just jumped into my clothes and uh,

558
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: you know, with a mask over my face swimming. You know,

559
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: other moms have on cute outfits and swimsuits. I just

560
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: walk up and just jump in. I spend the rest

561
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: of the afternoon in the pool and my fully clothed

562
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: because it's you know, over my dead body. Is another

563
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: shot a photo going to come out at me like that?

564
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: So maybe if I look like this, lady, Dr Brian Russell,

565
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm my post shots of myself too. Well, here's what

566
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: I think about that. I think that when you are

567
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: a single individual, you're a single woman, and you want

568
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: to uh, you know, show yourself off and all that.

569
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: It's one you have to be single to show off

570
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: your your cuteness. Well, here's here's what I think that

571
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: sense a double standard. No, no, no, no, it's not.

572
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be a double standard. I think when

573
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: you are a married person man or woman, the only

574
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: sexual needs, desires, fantasies that you ought to be catering

575
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: to and the only, uh, the only person that is

576
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: supposed to be catering to yours is your spouse. And

577
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: any time you get yourself involved in any kind of

578
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: illicit sexual activities, whether it's pornography or putting pictures of

579
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: yourself up for other people to get off on whatever,

580
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 1: it's going to see prostitutes while you're traveling for whoa, whoa,

581
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is getting a little far afield

582
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: from a mom posting shots of herself she looks like

583
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe and showing her cleavand and wearing a little

584
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: kittycat headband. That's a far cry from hooking up with

585
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: prostitutes when you're traveling. What what about death protests? Too

586
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: much too Shakespeare. Here's here's the point. You when you

587
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: do stuff like that, you are inviting into your life

588
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: a group of people that are going to include some

589
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: some very seedy characters that you don't want to invite in.

590
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: And you're also you're also getting involved in something that

591
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: for many people becomes an escalating pattern of behavior where

592
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: it starts. So now it's for posing online. Dr Brian,

593
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think. I don't I don't agree

594
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: with you. Um, just because I don't have the figure

595
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: to post myself online like like she did, that does

596
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: not mean that she somehow is responsible for her own murder.

597
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: I disagree with that, although I do see when you

598
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: post yourself out there, people find out about you and

599
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: try to track you. Okay with that part, I agree.

600
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: Take a lista to what we learned about the Cougar Club.

601
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: I wish for everyone to stop trying to connect online

602
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: photos to her passing. It's not like that, Okay. It

603
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean in discretions, It doesn't. It's they're just pictures.

604
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: That is her friend from the Cougar Club, Sandy K

605
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: speaking to our friends at inside. Addition, back to Alexis

606
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: Torres Chuck rightar online dot com. So she's a member

607
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: of the Cougar Club. What exactly do they do? They

608
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: post pictures of themselves and in any sort of provocative

609
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: way that you want, whether it's abroad. She really liked

610
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe, so she sort of tried to emulate a

611
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: lot of her poses, and she really looked like her.

612
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: But she was one of the women that was considered

613
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: almost like a mom within this group because she was

614
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: very supportive of all the other women and really cheering

615
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: them on, saying like, you know, girls have a great body,

616
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: you look wonderful. Okay, tell me a side thing, Alexis.

617
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: Just how serious was the online I mean the shots

618
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: I see of her, she's you know, she's dressed provocatively,

619
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: but she's dressed, she's got on on. She's not naked. No, no,

620
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: when you go on to her the website though with

621
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: a subscription fee, um does does she? Is she naked?

622
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: Is she okay? All right? So to me, that's a

623
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: big difference. And we know that in the past months

624
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: there has been a spate of deaths amongst let me

625
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: just say, adult entertainers. August Aims, Olivia Luis Olivia Nova

626
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: who died from unknown causes and now what's her name? Online?

627
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: Kitty Cat West, Kitty Cat West. Wait a minute, hold on, Alexis,

628
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 1: hold on. I hate to tell you this, but someone

629
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: wants to correct you. Someone who's obviously subscribed to kitticat

630
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: West's website. Okay, Alan, sorry, Alexis, you just didn't dig

631
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: deep in depp. Okay, you haven't spent hours in front

632
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: of your screen watching Kitty Cat West. Okay, Alan Douke,

633
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: cough up. If you go to her Twitter account, you

634
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: will see some some nude photos from the backside, if

635
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: you will. There's that shot from the refrigerator that I

636
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: think we actually have Crime Online dot Com has it

637
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: proud place right now. Okay, on Twitter and there's there

638
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: are a couple of others. It's it's I guess you

639
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: could say tastefully done. I don't know, but there are

640
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: nudes and they are on Twitter. She only had three

641
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: Twitter followers. If I'd known about those pictures, should have

642
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: three really nice shots. Okay, I'm gonna try to move forward,

643
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: even with Alan dragging him on a path of decency. Okay, yes,

644
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, pull me out of the gutter here. Well,

645
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: I just want to say that this is an illustration

646
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: of the other thing that I was talking about that.

647
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: And not only do you invite a group of people

648
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: into your life when you put yourself out there, well

649
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: you also, for many p bowl you get yourself involved

650
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: in something that, uh, it's a little bit like a

651
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: drug where a little bit doesn't go as long of

652
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: a way as it once did. And so you start

653
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: out doing some racy photos but clothed, and then that

654
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: doesn't quite give you the thriller, that doesn't quite get

655
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: the response that it once did. And so now you're

656
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: escalating it. Now you've got some nude photos and and

657
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that that happened. This happened in

658
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: this case, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point,

659
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: especially when you're asking people to pay money to see

660
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: this stuff, it doesn't escalate to well, maybe it wouldn't

661
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: hurt to let one of these people actually meet me,

662
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: especially if they're going to pay money and it and

663
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: it could hurt a lot, it could, Brian, I want,

664
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: I just want to run something by you. When I

665
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: was in school to be a Shakespearean literature professor and

666
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: my fiancee was murdered shortly before our wedding. Um as

667
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: you probably know. I think I've told you I dropped

668
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: out of school. I was aimless. I wouldn't go back.

669
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: I was overcome with grief, lost down to about eighty

670
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: six pounds, and I decided to go back with the

671
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: aim of going to law school to become a felony

672
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: prosecutor to try and save other victims the pain that

673
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: I went through. My parents did not want me to

674
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: become a felony prosecutor. They did not want me around

675
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: felony level crime. They did not want me driving around

676
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: with convicted rapists in my car trying to find a

677
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: killer um, which that's just one scenario. And it dawned

678
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: on me Dr Russell that the people I consorted with,

679
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: some people would refer to what is going to hell

680
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: to get witnesses to put the devil in jail. But

681
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: some of them, no matter what side of town they

682
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: came from, no matter what their history was, whether they

683
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: had dealt rugs, are being convicted on all sorts of crimes.

684
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: Some of them ended up being more decent people then

685
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: the rich, educated people I came in contact with. I

686
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: remember one really really wealthy guy with all sorts of

687
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: degrees that killed his wife actually put a hank on

688
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: me at the end of the trial, something about the

689
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: blood of your ancestors blah blah blah will follow you forever.

690
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: As they hauled him off to jail. I still remember it.

691
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you know the way some people behave. My

692
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: point is when you get in a certain may lieu,

693
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 1: then you have to take into account the risk of that.

694
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell and oh ALANGI let me defend you.

695
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure you subscribed for purely journalistic reasons, exactly to

696
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: further the story. So Dr Russell, I don't know if

697
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: this mom now known as kitticat West had any idea

698
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: who she was dealing with by posting racy pictures online. Yeah,

699
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: she may not have. You know, you uh, you mentioned

700
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: the fact that that your parents were concerned that by

701
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: doing the work that you did, that you were perhaps

702
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: you know, it's at times, and I'm sure you were

703
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: at times putting yourself in uh, in places and around

704
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: people that could have been dangerous. And and the reason

705
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: that in your case that was noble is because of

706
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: the important, you know, positive impact on society of the

707
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: work that you were doing. I don't think that, especially

708
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: somebody who's got children for whom they're responsible. UH can

709
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: make that argument even if they say, well, I was

710
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: making money and that was helping the family. UH. A

711
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: lot better ways to make money as a mom and

712
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: contribute to the household finances than this, And now a

713
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: break in the story. In the last hours, new images

714
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: of the so called double life dead mom Kittykat West

715
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: reveal her buying whiskey and absent on her last night alive.

716
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: To Alexis Torres Chuck, investigative reporter with Radar online dot Com,

717
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: what she was spotted in a liquor store the night

718
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: before her body was found, and surveillance video shows her

719
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: fully dressed. She was with a guy. She bought a

720
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: bottle of whiskey in a bottle of absence, which is

721
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: a super super strong liquor like nobody should ever drink it,

722
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: and she the guys with her. He's seen actually patting

723
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: her on the butt in the video. She looks as

724
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: happy as can be and this is just hours before

725
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: her body is found. According to Stacy oglesby a clerk.

726
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: According to Stacy oglesby a clerk in the store quote

727
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: they came in. It looked like they were on a

728
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: date night They bought a bottle of jamison in a

729
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: bottle of Lucid absinthe and made their purchase and went

730
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: on their way. Everything was normal. As a matter of fact,

731
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: listen to the clerk, Stacy Oglesby. They came in, they

732
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: were it looked like they were a date night. They

733
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 1: bought a bottle of jamison and a bottle of Lucid

734
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: and made their purchase and went on their way, and

735
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: everything seemed normal. Everything was normal, that is Stacy Oglesby

736
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: speaking to our friends at Inside Edition. Footage obtained shows West,

737
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: the mother of a twelve year old little girl, laughing

738
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: and smiling, going through the wine and liquor aisles. There

739
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: is a man, as Alexis has pointed out, walking alongside her.

740
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if he has been identified yet, but

741
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: the husband, Jeff, who we believed to be a campus

742
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: police officer at Birmingham's Southern College. His family wants to

743
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: mourn privately. Okay, do you blame him? They've got a

744
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: twelve year old daughter. What what is the point? I mean,

745
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: let me rephrase. What do we learn from this video?

746
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: One thing I'd like to thank Joe Scott Morgan, forensics

747
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: expert is that I could tell something about was she

748
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: wearing the same clothes? Could she have been killed that

749
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: night instead of in the morning. What happened to her clothes?

750
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: Are the clothes she's wearing at I think it was

751
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: R and R wine or something like that. Are those

752
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: clothes gone? Have they been burned? Are they in a

753
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: nearby trash dump? That's very critical because that would tell

754
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: me she was killed the night before. What can you

755
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: tell from the body is to the time of death.

756
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: She may never have made it home the night before. Yeah, yeah,

757
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: you're you're right, Nancy. And not just the time of death,

758
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: but also the position of the body. Was she killed

759
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: somewhere else where, say, for instance, things like blood settling

760
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: or postmorder avidity has set it in another region, and

761
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 1: then she's placed in a uh the an alternative position

762
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: at the scene, and it makes it look inconsistent. Another

763
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: thing is that in this footage, uh we see her

764
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: dressed as she's dressed, but we we all we know

765
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: the only piece of clothing she had was this sports bra.

766
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: Here's another really key key part here, Nancy. Do you

767
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: remember what they said that the cell phone was found

768
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: at the scene either adjacent to our with a bottle

769
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: sitting on top of it, and they've referred to a

770
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: liquor bottle. This liquor bottle, if I remember correctly, was

771
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: green in color. The store clerk said that she, uh,

772
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: and this other person had purchased. Um. Lucid is the

773
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: is the the name, the name brand Lucid absent there

774
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: at the bar, along with Jamison, which is an Irish whiskey,

775
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: but Lucid absent. This is the only type of absence

776
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 1: that is made in the traditional way. And uh, it's

777
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 1: it's quite, it's quite. The drink very powerful. Um causes

778
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: some people to hallucinate, this sort of thing. Um. And

779
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: if that's at the scene and it's empty, I'd really

780
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: like to know from the autopsy not just where this

781
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: blood was coming from her head, but also what her

782
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: level of toxicity was, what level of alcohol was in

783
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: her system. That's a that's quite a bit of alcohol

784
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: to have consumed, particularly when it comes to absolute. You know,

785
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: her mother, Nancy Martin is posting that the family is

786
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: asking for prayers and this is not a time to

787
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: judge this young mom. This is a time I agree

788
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: with her mother to pray for the little girl. The

789
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: twelve year old girl who will never have her mom

790
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. Yeah, some people may, morally,

791
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 1: I guess Morley disagree with her posting shots of herself

792
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: naked or in racy clothing. But we, unless one of

793
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: us has never committed to sin, I don't believe we

794
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: have a leg to stand on. I'll let you guys

795
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: throw the first stone, because it is not gonna be me.

796
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: This is about a murder. That is what this is about.

797
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: Take a listen to what this beautiful young mom's neighbor

798
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: has to say. It's got everybody a little bit on

799
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: the edge and a little uneasy right now. We just

800
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: want to answer. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, when you

801
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: go into warp speed on describing how you process a body,

802
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: you'll lose a lot of people, including me. Sometimes when

803
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 1: you say lividity, what that means is in my late

804
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: person understanding, I'm just a j D. I mean you

805
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: and Brian Russell can lord it over me that he's

806
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: a lawyer and a psychologist and you're a forensics expert.

807
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: Go ahead, I don't mind. Lividity to my understanding is

808
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 1: when a body, a dead body is prone or in

809
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: any position. Sitting at the wheel of a car, uh

810
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: in somebody's car trunk, their blood is no longer pumping

811
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: through their body, and therefore the blood goes down to

812
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 1: the lowest point of the body. I e. If you're

813
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: in the car trunk, laying on your back, all your

814
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: blood goes down to your rear end, the back of

815
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: your legs, the back of your body. Because the heart's

816
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: not pumping it through the body anymore. It all sinks

817
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: to the lowest level. The police or the medical examiner

818
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: will determine not only the point of avidity. She's only

819
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: been dead fifty minutes. There's not time for the blood

820
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: to sink to the lowest level. You can also tell

821
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: the time of death by rigor, the degree of rigor mortis,

822
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: the stiffening of the limbs, and the temperature of the body.

823
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: What about that Joseph's got Morgan? Well, that hell us

824
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: And if blood was still freely flowing from the wound,

825
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: that would suggest a more recent wound. If it had

826
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: been hours before, the blow would have coagulated. Help me out,

827
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yes or yes or no? Yes, my stars,

828
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: that's the first time in the history you answer in

829
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 1: one word, I'm stunned. Okay, So what would you expect

830
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 1: with this chilly morning temperature, Joseph Scott Morgan? How will

831
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: that helped me determine time of death? Because that's very

832
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: important working with what's called the environmental temperature, ambient environmental temperature,

833
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: that's the outdoor in temperature, Nancy. The key here is

834
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: how is that going to affect the deceased? Remember our

835
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: normal body temperatures ninety eight point six. Okay, that body

836
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: temperature that we retain after death is dependent upon how

837
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: cold or warm the environment is that you're in, and

838
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: that's one piece to it. So if she's in a

839
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: protected area when she dies, let's say a climate controlled area,

840
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: riger mortis riger mortis, for instance, in the body temperature

841
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: is going to move quicker. Alright, heat speeds things up.

842
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: We all know this in in science experiments. Um, if

843
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: if she is in a position going to uh what

844
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: you were talking about gravity, the settling the blood, this

845
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: is going to be key. The blood, which is liquid,

846
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: even though it's not pumping through our body more still,

847
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: liquid is going to seek the lowest point of gravity.

848
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: The lowest point of gravity will be pulled to that position.

849
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: So Let's say if she was laying on her back

850
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, uh, maybe thirty forty minutes,

851
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: blood will have begun to seek that area. But if

852
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: she is shifted, you might have multiple places where blood

853
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 1: has settled. So this can be rather confusing, and it's

854
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: going to be key to figure out the timeline. This

855
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: all goes back to tomline where she was at any

856
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: particular time. That's why the CCTV footage is very key

857
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: when it's coupled with the actual time which she was

858
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: found dead. Alexas terres Schack, investigative reporter Radar online dot Com.

859
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna know anything until we get a c

860
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: O D cause of death. For all I know, she

861
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: uh was out, got hit by car. She could have

862
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: fallen and hit her head on the curb and wasn't bleeding.

863
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: It sounds like a gunshot wound into the head to

864
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: me because her state of undress suggests she would not

865
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,879
Speaker 1: have been out for any other purpose. And we got

866
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: to get an idea on who was with her at

867
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: that liquor store. But depending on the time and the

868
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: cause of death, she could have come back with the liquor,

869
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: come home or not and then been murdered. For all

870
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: I know she was out jogging that more. I don't

871
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: know until I get a cause of death and a

872
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: time of death. Alexas any word on that. The corner

873
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 1: has not at anything, and neither of the police. But

874
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: you were talking about the video people. It seems to

875
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: be what people are understanding from the video and this

876
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: has not been confirmed by the police, shap but I

877
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: think it's her husband in the video with her, so

878
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: it seems like it's close to the house, and they're

879
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: saying that he just wants to grieve privately. There hasn't

880
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 1: been the outpoort, you know, he hasn't had a press

881
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: conference saying I need somebody to find the person that

882
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: did this to my wife. I know that throws suspicion

883
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 1: on the husband. He is not a person of interest

884
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: or a suspect. But the reality is Dr Brian Russell,

885
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 1: lawyer and psychologist, host of investigation discoveries hit series Fatal Vows.

886
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is whether he's a suspect or

887
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 1: a person of interest or not. That's where every investigation starts.

888
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: And when you get married or you're in a relationship,

889
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: that's just part of it. If something goes wrong, you're

890
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: the first suspect statistically for statistic reasons, statistical reasons, whether

891
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: you're guilty or innocent, cops are gonna look at you first.

892
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: Why Well, because statistically, when it's like a target, you know,

893
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: close to the bull's eye there, the people who are

894
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: in the sphere that is closest around the person who's

895
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: deceased are the ones that have the most access, the

896
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: most acts to grind. Usually there there are all kinds

897
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: of reasons why you tend to look at the significant

898
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: other and the immediate that the people in the immediate

899
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,959
Speaker 1: sphere around the person first, and then you fan out

900
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: to to progressively, you know, more distant rings of association

901
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: with the person, going all the way out to you know,

902
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: ultimately the public that had no prior contact with the person.

903
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: But but that's that's less likely. Usually more often than not,

904
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: it's somebody that knew the person. And I think a

905
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: lot of people, especially maybe even some fatal DAUS fans

906
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: look at this and go, oh, I bet I know

907
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: what happened. I bet the husband found out that she

908
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: had this double life and he got upset and he

909
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: you know, did this Well, Okay, yeah, that's a hypothesis.

910
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: It's good to have that as one hypothesis. But we've

911
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: seen cases on fatal vows where people were involved in

912
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: illicit sexual stuff and the spouse knew and was on

913
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: board with it. So we we really can't be sure

914
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: that the husband wasn't aware that she was doing this stuff,

915
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: and maybe the extra income she was earning. Dr Russell,

916
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: you're dead on again because I don't think she kept

917
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: it much of a secret. But my question is what

918
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: is this daughter going through because she may not know

919
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: about her mom's double life, but you know, some horrible

920
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: little child at school will and we'll say something to her.

921
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: I mean, at insult to injury, you lose your mom,

922
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: she's most likely murdered in a very degrading way, and

923
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: then it's going to be thrown in your face that

924
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: she posed online. I mean, Dr Russell, that's a lot

925
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: for a child to take in. Yeah. Absolutely, and and

926
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: and you know, I, without without being judgmental, I would

927
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: I would just have to say for everybody else who

928
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: trying to take lessons away from what part of the

929
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: reason they listen is because they're trying to take lessons

930
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: away from these horrible cases. Which is really the only

931
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: good a lot of times that can come out of

932
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: them is it's another reason not to get involved in

933
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 1: this stuff because it does come back on your kids.

934
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: Even if you don't get murdered, uh, you know, if

935
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: your parents just get divorced, these things come out kids.

936
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: Like you said, kids at school find out, other other

937
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: kids parents find out, and they don't want their kids

938
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: associating with you because they hear the stuff that your

939
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: parents are involved in. It's just once you've become a parent,

940
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: your whole your whole decision making process has to change

941
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: to where everything you do has to be about how

942
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: is this good for my kids. We also know keep

943
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: in mind, all of you super slothes out there, that

944
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: the liquor store footage was just eight hours before the

945
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: soccer mom is found dead. Alan Duke the tipline. If

946
00:59:54,280 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: anyone has information on the death of this beautiful young mom,

947
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: Kathleen down West, please call Allen Nancy. The Calera, Alabama

948
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: Police Department is leading the investigation and their tip line

949
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: is area code two oh five six six eight three

950
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,919
Speaker 1: five zero five two oh five six six eight three

951
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: five zero five. If you want more information, go to

952
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: crime Online dot com for our full feature story, Nancy

953
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: Grace signing off goodbye friend,