WEBVTT - Strong Verbs, Short Sentences 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:19.276 --> 0:00:29.716 The following podcast contains explicit language. August first, nineteen ninety one, Washington, 0:00:29.836 --> 0:00:36.116 d C. One of those sweltering DC summer days, Room 0:00:36.276 --> 0:00:39.716 twenty three to twenty two of the Rayburn House Office building, 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:43.396 the big grand Congressional building right across from the Capitol. 0:00:43.796 --> 0:00:48.996 It's packed press, lawyers aids, a long row of congressman 0:00:49.076 --> 0:00:51.516 up on the dais, and in the chairman's seat is 0:00:51.596 --> 0:00:57.596 John Dingall, Democrat of Michigan, A big man, well pass 0:00:57.676 --> 0:01:03.076 six feet gruff, intimidating, giant bald head, thick black glasses, 0:01:03.516 --> 0:01:08.556 a bouncer in a business suit. In his heyday, Dingle 0:01:08.716 --> 0:01:11.876 was perhaps hups the most powerful man in Congress. And 0:01:11.916 --> 0:01:15.156 on this August afternoon he's called in a who's who 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:21.436 of the American scientific establishment for a reckoning. The hearing 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:26.596 was not recorded. All we have is a transcript. Dingle begins. 0:01:27.756 --> 0:01:30.676 It is the practice of this subcommittee, since it was 0:01:30.676 --> 0:01:34.556 first constituted by Sam Rayburn in nineteen fifty eight, that 0:01:34.676 --> 0:01:38.756 all witnesses testify under oath. Do any of you have 0:01:38.796 --> 0:01:42.396 any objection to testifying under oath? This morning they raised 0:01:42.396 --> 0:01:47.036 their right hands a chorus of No's A masterpiece of 0:01:47.156 --> 0:01:52.636 choreographed congressional theater until in our five it all goes 0:01:52.636 --> 0:01:59.996 off the rails. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:08.276 to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:12.436 This episode is the second of two parts about the 0:02:12.476 --> 0:02:16.116 bizarre outbreak of insanity that swept the United States a 0:02:16.196 --> 0:02:20.036 quarter century ago, a time when otherwise thoughtful and intelligent 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:23.996 people took temporary leave of their senses and convinced themselves, 0:02:24.316 --> 0:02:28.156 against all evidence to the contrary, that American science was 0:02:28.276 --> 0:02:35.676 riddled with fraud. And if you haven't listened to the 0:02:35.676 --> 0:02:39.956 first part, you should before continuing on. Part one is 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:43.516 about how the panic started. This episode is about how 0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:47.876 it ended when the immovable object named John Dingle ran 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:52.676 into an unstoppable force named Bernardine Healy. I remember it well. 0:02:53.236 --> 0:02:53.796 I was there. 0:02:57.956 --> 0:03:01.476 My parents, and particularly my father, thought it was wonderful 0:03:01.716 --> 0:03:03.356 for a woman to be a doctor. 0:03:04.516 --> 0:03:07.156 The story of how the panic over science fraud ended 0:03:07.596 --> 0:03:12.356 revolves around three people, Congressman John Dingle, a brilliant scientist 0:03:12.476 --> 0:03:17.676 named Remey Sharma, and Bernardin Heey. Bernardin Heely was the 0:03:17.716 --> 0:03:20.836 first woman to run the National Institutes of Health, the 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:25.316 most important biomedical research institution in the world, with billions 0:03:25.316 --> 0:03:28.556 of dollars at its disposal. This is Healey in an 0:03:28.556 --> 0:03:31.516 interview a few years after she left the NIH when 0:03:31.516 --> 0:03:33.316 she was head of the American Red Cross. 0:03:33.996 --> 0:03:37.316 When I was growing up, it was really exceptional, unusual 0:03:37.716 --> 0:03:40.716 for a woman to pursue a career in medicine, and 0:03:41.156 --> 0:03:43.116 as far as my father was concerned, it was the 0:03:43.116 --> 0:03:45.236 perfect place for me to go. It was a place 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:48.556 where I could use my intelligence and my hard work, 0:03:48.596 --> 0:03:50.356 but also make a difference. 0:03:52.596 --> 0:03:55.516 Heally grew up in a little apartment in Queen's upstairs 0:03:55.516 --> 0:03:59.396 from her family's perfume business. Her parents were of Irish descent. 0:04:00.156 --> 0:04:02.596 She graduated number one in her class at Hunter College 0:04:02.636 --> 0:04:06.716 High School, then Vassar, Harvard Medical School JOHNS. Hopkins. 0:04:07.196 --> 0:04:10.796 When I went to Harvard Medical School, roughly ten percent 0:04:10.836 --> 0:04:13.756 less than ten percent of the class were women. And 0:04:14.196 --> 0:04:16.876 in those days, although they probably don't like to remember this, 0:04:17.396 --> 0:04:21.196 medical schools head quotas, and there was the prevailing attitude 0:04:21.476 --> 0:04:24.996 that women were taking up a spot that wasn't necessarily 0:04:25.036 --> 0:04:27.396 going to be used as well as a spot filled 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:30.916 by a man. Women had to have I think better 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:35.436 academic credentials and often go through much tougher screening. 0:04:37.396 --> 0:04:39.516 When Heally was young, she wanted to be a nun, 0:04:40.036 --> 0:04:42.596 but her father said no, because that would mean she'd 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:44.876 have to be bossed around by a priest. And it 0:04:44.956 --> 0:04:47.636 must have been obvious even then that Bernard and Healely 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:50.156 was not cut out to be bossed around by anyone. 0:04:50.876 --> 0:04:53.996 She liked to quote Saint Augustine. She cut her own hair, 0:04:54.476 --> 0:04:58.116 she wore a scott of suits. 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:02.036 She was brilliant and I've worked for a lot of 0:05:02.116 --> 0:05:05.236 really wonderful and accomplished people. 0:05:05.876 --> 0:05:08.876 This is Joanna Schneider, who was Healey's right hand during 0:05:08.876 --> 0:05:10.596 her years at the NAH. 0:05:10.756 --> 0:05:16.316 She could take a problem and sift through it quickly 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:21.836 and come up with a couple of solutions, very very 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:25.436 very brightly, and it was a beautiful thing to watch. 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:29.636 Her writing was beautiful, but the way she spoke was 0:05:29.676 --> 0:05:33.236 beautiful as well. It was just a natural talent. It 0:05:33.276 --> 0:05:36.636 was a god given talent, and so she was a 0:05:36.676 --> 0:05:40.276 bit of a force of nature when you met her, 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:42.996 and I think most people felt the same way. 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:49.476 Tell me more so describe for listeners who have never 0:05:49.836 --> 0:05:51.436 may never have refer seen the picture of her. 0:05:51.796 --> 0:06:00.276 Let's see. Bernardine was tall, statuesque, blonde. She was beautiful, 0:06:00.596 --> 0:06:05.156 but didn't know it, didn't understand the impact I think 0:06:05.196 --> 0:06:07.196 that she had on people physically. 0:06:07.796 --> 0:06:09.996 I talked to someone else who worked with Heally back then, 0:06:10.396 --> 0:06:14.636 a senior NIH official who knew five separate NIH directors, 0:06:15.036 --> 0:06:18.436 countless Nobel laureates, and he said she was the most 0:06:18.476 --> 0:06:21.916 brilliant person he'd ever met. They only worked together for 0:06:21.956 --> 0:06:25.716 three years, twenty five years ago. And what struck me 0:06:25.836 --> 0:06:28.236 is that he used the present tense in describing her, 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:31.116 even though Healey has been dead for years. He said, 0:06:31.876 --> 0:06:34.676 her influence on me is everlasting. 0:06:35.796 --> 0:06:40.476 Her first instinct was always fairness and justice, and I 0:06:40.836 --> 0:06:43.036 just she was my father. 0:06:43.676 --> 0:06:44.756 My father was. 0:06:46.436 --> 0:06:54.116 All about fairness and justice. She is a mix of 0:06:54.316 --> 0:06:59.076 Joan of Arc, Madame Curie, and Florence Nightingale. You know, 0:06:59.156 --> 0:07:05.116 she's all Repta in a scotta. Absolutely absolutely. 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:09.076 I met Heally years ago. I once followed her around 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:10.996 for a few days and wrote a profile of her 0:07:11.036 --> 0:07:13.876 for the Washington Post. And I have to say that 0:07:13.956 --> 0:07:17.876 none of this is hyperbole. She spoke in casual conversation 0:07:18.316 --> 0:07:20.036 the way the rest of us could only speak if 0:07:20.076 --> 0:07:21.236 we had a week to prepare. 0:07:21.716 --> 0:07:26.436 She had a wooden sign on her desk that said 0:07:26.676 --> 0:07:35.476 strong verbs, short sentences, and that was Bernie Back. 0:07:35.516 --> 0:07:38.516 When Healey was on the faculty of Johns Hopkins Medical School, 0:07:38.836 --> 0:07:41.516 there was an all male eating club called the Pittotomy Club. 0:07:42.556 --> 0:07:45.236 They had an annual comedy show, and one year the 0:07:45.276 --> 0:07:49.076 mainskit consisted of a man dressed in a long blonde wig, 0:07:49.356 --> 0:07:53.956 fishnet stockings, and coconut half brazier performing pornographic acts on 0:07:53.996 --> 0:07:58.436 other physicians at the hospital. It was supposed to be Healy. 0:07:59.276 --> 0:08:02.996 Heally heard about it and complained one person on staff. 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:06.916 Another woman came to her defense. One person people told 0:08:06.956 --> 0:08:09.116 her she had no sense of humor, that she should 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:12.596 drop it, Bernardine, knock it off. Boys will be boys. 0:08:12.876 --> 0:08:16.036 But she wouldn't. She kept bringing it up at staff meetings. 0:08:16.396 --> 0:08:18.716 They told her she's hurting her career, and in fact 0:08:18.756 --> 0:08:21.396 it does. She doesn't last long at Hopkins. But this 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:25.836 is Bernardine Patricia Healey disciple of fairness and justice. She 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:28.916 forces a face to face with the officers of the club. 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:34.076 Heally didn't volunteer that story to me. I found out 0:08:34.116 --> 0:08:36.236 about it when I was doing research for my profile. 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:39.596 At first, she didn't want to talk about it. Finally 0:08:39.676 --> 0:08:43.796 she told me this quote. I made every one of 0:08:43.796 --> 0:08:46.516 them answer how they would have felt if the skit 0:08:46.676 --> 0:08:50.556 was about their sister, their mother, or their wife. I 0:08:50.676 --> 0:08:54.836 went around the table and questioned their integrity, their sensitivity, 0:08:55.316 --> 0:08:59.876 their character. We're talking about an incident from nineteen eighty two. 0:09:00.076 --> 0:09:03.796 Mind you, Heally was a single mom, newly divorced, a 0:09:03.836 --> 0:09:06.436 young academic, trying to make a name for herself in 0:09:06.516 --> 0:09:08.636 a world that at the time was probably ninety five 0:09:08.636 --> 0:09:13.116 percent male. But oh wow, Bernie in full Bernie mode, 0:09:13.556 --> 0:09:18.316 strong verbs and short sentences. I would not have wanted 0:09:18.356 --> 0:09:20.836 to be one of those men around the table when 0:09:20.876 --> 0:09:23.676 you said that she came to Washington and there were 0:09:23.756 --> 0:09:27.196 things she wanted to accomplish. Yeah, what was she what 0:09:27.276 --> 0:09:29.396 was on her mind when she first started the Nah, 0:09:29.476 --> 0:09:30.556 what is it she wanted to do? 0:09:30.876 --> 0:09:33.956 And she just said, women have been locked out of 0:09:33.996 --> 0:09:37.876 clinical trials. They've you know, they've they've constantly the scientific 0:09:37.916 --> 0:09:42.956 community has always just extrapolated all these trials on men 0:09:43.036 --> 0:09:48.956 to women, and it just it isn't necessarily good medicine. 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:52.476 So we need to get women into trials. We need 0:09:52.516 --> 0:09:56.996 to open up an office for minorities. And she just said, 0:09:57.036 --> 0:09:59.436 this is what we're going to do at the NIAH, 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:01.596 and we're going to open science up, We're going to 0:10:01.676 --> 0:10:07.236 change it. We're going to double our budget. Wow, okay. 0:10:08.196 --> 0:10:14.196 What was the reception within? And I aged her cold? Cold, cold? 0:10:15.236 --> 0:10:21.476 Why chili? They thought she was just being too aggressive, 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:25.156 to pushy, and you could feel it in the meetings, 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:27.876 you could feel it in the halls. 0:10:28.316 --> 0:10:31.356 How does she react to that chili reception? 0:10:32.036 --> 0:10:35.516 I don't know why, but it never bothered her ever. 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:41.916 Never she said, I wasn't brought here to make friends 0:10:42.836 --> 0:10:44.876 or to get a group of people to like me. 0:10:45.276 --> 0:10:49.476 I came here to make changes. And you know, God 0:10:49.516 --> 0:10:51.836 willing and the creek don't rise, We're going to do that. 0:10:52.076 --> 0:10:57.316 And it never. She didn't need affirmation. And that was 0:10:57.716 --> 0:10:59.356 I was always fascinated by that. 0:11:01.156 --> 0:11:03.996 At the risk of stating the obvious, you really don't 0:11:03.996 --> 0:11:06.156 want to pick a fight with Bernardine Healy. 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:12.036 Does Vaughn and nineteen thirty five December. At that time 0:11:12.116 --> 0:11:14.276 British sales ruled REMAE. 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:18.756 Sharma, the second character in this story. Sharma came to 0:11:18.796 --> 0:11:22.356 America in nineteen sixty. He got his PhD, became a 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:26.436 full professor and made a revolutionary discovery of an entirely 0:11:26.476 --> 0:11:30.996 new cell signaling pathway, which is best described by the 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:35.396 following analogy. If you want to drive from New York 0:11:35.436 --> 0:11:38.636 City to Miami, you take the I ninety five interstate. 0:11:39.236 --> 0:11:43.076 That's the main transportation corridor of the American Eastern Seaboard. 0:11:44.436 --> 0:11:48.716 Now imagine somebody says, wait, I've just discovered another interstate 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:52.276 just as wide and long that also runs straight down 0:11:52.356 --> 0:11:57.396 the East coast. Remay Sharma found the body's second interstate. 0:12:00.516 --> 0:12:03.796 In the late nineteen eighties, Sharma is in demand and 0:12:03.836 --> 0:12:05.996 he gets a fantastic offer to set up his own 0:12:06.076 --> 0:12:09.436 laboratory at the Cleveland Clinic, one of the world's great 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:13.476 research institutions. And who's running the Cleveland Clinic at that time, 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:17.636 a young dynamo named Bernardine Healey. Before she moves to 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:24.436 the nih, he comes, starts work, and one day in 0:12:24.476 --> 0:12:27.276 the spring of nineteen ninety he comes back from lunch 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:34.916 and gets a message He's wanted in Healey's office. One 0:12:34.956 --> 0:12:39.476 of Sharma's colleagues has accused him of fraud. There's an investigation, 0:12:39.876 --> 0:12:43.756 Sharma is cleared, there's a second investigation, then a third, 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:47.436 the whole business ends up at the Office of Scientific Integrity, 0:12:47.676 --> 0:12:51.156 the NIH's anti fraud unit, which is in the middle 0:12:51.236 --> 0:12:55.276 of its full fledged hysteria mode, and the result unfolds 0:12:55.356 --> 0:12:57.236 just as it did in the cases that I spoke 0:12:57.276 --> 0:13:00.676 about in the last episode. There are leaks to the media, 0:13:00.996 --> 0:13:05.116 sensational allegations, and in all of it the same puzzling 0:13:05.196 --> 0:13:08.916 feature as the other cases, almost no mention of what 0:13:08.956 --> 0:13:12.676 the accused is supposed to have done. So let me 0:13:12.716 --> 0:13:17.996 tell you what Sharma was accused of. Sharma writes a 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:21.716 grant application to the NAH many thousands of words, a 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:25.716 small portion of which concerns two proteins, Alpha two A 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:30.196 and Alpha two GC. And on page twenty one of 0:13:30.236 --> 0:13:32.796 the grant application, he has a line where he says, 0:13:32.956 --> 0:13:35.836 he did such and such work with alpha two GC, 0:13:36.676 --> 0:13:39.436 and it isn't true. He hasn't done that particular work 0:13:39.476 --> 0:13:43.436 with alpha two GC. So the OSI says that's fraud, 0:13:44.196 --> 0:13:46.396 but Sharma says, no, it isn't. 0:13:47.556 --> 0:13:50.596 When I was diving and I do not much diving, 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:54.996 so I would consult with my wife. She how how 0:13:55.036 --> 0:13:58.436 I can do and so forth these emissions. Let me 0:13:58.516 --> 0:14:00.396 help you, So she helped. 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:04.716 Me This is the late nineteen eighties. Word processes are primitive, 0:14:05.076 --> 0:14:07.476 and to type the name of a protein, as Sharma 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:10.876 had to do, required the use of Greek letters and subscripts. 0:14:11.476 --> 0:14:14.956 It was a pretty tedious, complicated process, a process he 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:17.516 had to do at least one hundred and thirty times. 0:14:18.116 --> 0:14:21.796 So Sharma's wife programmed shortcut keystrokes for each of those 0:14:21.796 --> 0:14:24.956 two proteins. Shama showed me how it worked on an 0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:27.796 actual keyboard. Or they were side by side. 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:30.196 Side and she put side by side. Yeah, she could 0:14:30.196 --> 0:14:33.116 twelve the macross the two keys side by side. And 0:14:33.156 --> 0:14:35.276 he says, when I needed alpha two A, press this, 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:39.836 and I needed al for two GC appress this, and 0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:41.876 that is how I kept on doing. 0:14:42.756 --> 0:14:46.516 But on page twenty one of the Grand Application, Sharma's 0:14:46.516 --> 0:14:49.796 wife made a mistake a typo. She hit the alpha 0:14:49.836 --> 0:14:52.596 two GC key when she meant to hit the alpha 0:14:52.716 --> 0:14:55.316 two A key because they're right next to each other, 0:14:55.476 --> 0:14:58.996 which is how typos happen. How could they conclude that 0:14:59.036 --> 0:15:01.956 a single typographical error constituted misconduct? 0:15:03.676 --> 0:15:05.636 You tell me that that is what I have been 0:15:05.676 --> 0:15:09.956 asking them all over and the iost the same thing 0:15:10.156 --> 0:15:15.236 two appeals more. Can you magine in a document of 0:15:15.316 --> 0:15:18.676 thirty nine are paging two grants for seventy eight pages, 0:15:18.916 --> 0:15:21.596 the only fine single typographical. 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:26.716 Raaler seventy eight pages one typo, and the OSI gets 0:15:26.716 --> 0:15:29.236 so worked up that at one point they fly in 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:32.716 a team of its investigators to interrogate Sharma booked a 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:33.716 room near the airport. 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:40.356 At at the airport, they asked me terrible questions, and 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:43.316 in talibrable. When they asked me some terrible questions, I 0:15:43.356 --> 0:15:45.996 think they started to really bully me. 0:15:46.716 --> 0:15:49.476 As they were bullying him, Sharma happened to look at 0:15:49.476 --> 0:15:51.476 the cover page of the document they had given him 0:15:51.476 --> 0:15:54.836 to sign. The date was wrong off by a year 0:15:55.476 --> 0:15:58.756 in the summary of charges against him over a typo. 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:03.116 They had made a typo. Just remembering the absurdity of 0:16:03.156 --> 0:16:05.636 it all makes him jab the table and anger. 0:16:06.636 --> 0:16:09.996 I said, you yourself are dnamost turney even didn't know 0:16:10.076 --> 0:16:12.876 I saw it. Are you yourself done a mistake here? 0:16:13.356 --> 0:16:16.676 Now you have put wrong year, one year wrong. You 0:16:16.836 --> 0:16:19.476 can do a mistake, and you are trying to take 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:26.076 me to the goals with one typographical subscript. There didn't 0:16:26.116 --> 0:16:30.316 answer me and then they left. 0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:35.556 Sharma's contract at the Cleveland Clinic was not renewed. Doors 0:16:35.596 --> 0:16:38.156 that were once opened to him were closed. 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:46.556 I was stained and I never recovered. My wife Satra 0:16:46.676 --> 0:16:50.356 mesh All. What you did recame from India and originally 0:16:50.356 --> 0:16:56.716 in nineteen sixty is all gone down with Those are 0:16:56.756 --> 0:17:03.316 the consequences, and here we are talking about him today. 0:17:03.116 --> 0:17:05.316 I still get emotional about it. 0:17:06.476 --> 0:17:10.196 The man who discovered the body's second cellular pathway now 0:17:10.236 --> 0:17:17.556 works at a small university outside of Philadelphia. In the 0:17:17.596 --> 0:17:21.076 middle of all of this fear over Sharma's typo, Bernardine 0:17:21.116 --> 0:17:24.916 Healy was tapped to lead the NIH, and when she 0:17:24.996 --> 0:17:28.996 leaves the Cleveland clinic and arrives in Washington, she realizes 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:31.756 that what happened to Sharma is happening to a lot 0:17:31.796 --> 0:17:34.996 of other scientists as well, that the anti fraud unit 0:17:35.076 --> 0:17:39.156 at the NIH is in the grip of a hysteria. 0:17:48.116 --> 0:17:50.196 I'm proud of the little things I've been able to 0:17:50.196 --> 0:17:53.516 do while I've been here, and I'm to eat proud 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:57.796 or even still more of the people that I've been 0:17:57.836 --> 0:17:59.756 able to serve and help. 0:18:00.836 --> 0:18:07.396 John Dingle, the third character in this story. Dingle is 0:18:07.556 --> 0:18:11.916 Washington Royalty. His father, John Dingall Senior, was elected to 0:18:11.956 --> 0:18:16.316 Congress in nineteen thirty three. As a kid, Dingall was 0:18:16.316 --> 0:18:20.716 a Congressional page. When his dad died in nineteen fifty five, 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:24.156 Dingle ran for the family seat and won. He served 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:28.676 until twenty fifteen, almost sixty years, and when he retired, 0:18:28.916 --> 0:18:31.636 his wife, Debbie, ran for his seat and won, meaning 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:34.356 that we are now in the ninth decade of Dingle's 0:18:34.436 --> 0:18:37.996 occupying that chair in the House. During the long years 0:18:37.996 --> 0:18:41.836 when the Democrats controlled Congress, Dingall was as powerful as 0:18:41.876 --> 0:18:47.636 anyone in Washington, and his self assumed role was congressional watchdog, 0:18:48.356 --> 0:18:50.236 scourge of fraud and abuse. 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:52.916 When I was chairman of the Commresce Committee, I was 0:18:52.956 --> 0:18:56.636 also a chairman of the Oversight Investigations Committee, and I was, 0:18:57.876 --> 0:19:00.756 I think one of the better investigators they've ever had here. 0:19:01.676 --> 0:19:04.236 This is Dingall in an interview with the Edward M. 0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:06.356 Kennedy Institute a few years ago. 0:19:07.516 --> 0:19:10.956 Sure was a bad year when we didn't make defense 0:19:10.996 --> 0:19:14.076 contractors give back a million a billion to two billion. 0:19:14.156 --> 0:19:17.876 And it was a bad year when we didn't frankly, 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:21.476 send a fair number of folks to jail or force 0:19:21.876 --> 0:19:25.796 major changes either in policy or personnel or both in 0:19:25.876 --> 0:19:29.956 the federal government. I kept a picture of Joe McCarthy 0:19:29.996 --> 0:19:31.956 on the wall to remind me what I did not 0:19:32.156 --> 0:19:35.516 want to be and what a bad investigator was. 0:19:37.756 --> 0:19:41.676 Dingle's oversight committee had its own squad of investigators, and 0:19:41.716 --> 0:19:45.236 they were famous, big aggressive guys, very much in the 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:47.676 image of their boss. What they loved to do was 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:51.436 pester the agencies on their watch, the NIH, the Food 0:19:51.476 --> 0:19:56.276 and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control. They would 0:19:56.276 --> 0:20:01.316 send what were called Dingle grams, letters demanding action, expressing outrage, 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:05.636 requesting boxes and boxes of documents. I once asked the 0:20:05.676 --> 0:20:08.356 director of the FDA to count the number of letters 0:20:08.436 --> 0:20:11.356 dingle staff had sent him in a year and a half, 0:20:11.836 --> 0:20:15.596 one hundred and seventy five. One hundred and seventy five. 0:20:15.996 --> 0:20:18.516 Romeo and Juliet did not send each other one hundred 0:20:18.516 --> 0:20:21.596 and seventy five letters, and each of those one hundred 0:20:21.636 --> 0:20:25.836 and seventy five letters required immediate attention. They would accuse 0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:28.996 the FDA of not being tough enough on the pharmaceutical industry. 0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:32.316 Then when the FDA got tough, Dingle would write them 0:20:32.356 --> 0:20:34.996 letters accusing him of being too tough on the industry. 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:37.956 He was sort of the scourge of the NIH and 0:20:38.116 --> 0:20:41.956 his staff used to write us letters all the time 0:20:42.036 --> 0:20:43.036 saying what about this. 0:20:43.156 --> 0:20:46.436 I want to see that John Dingell and his staff 0:20:46.596 --> 0:20:50.996 did not pursue a coherent ideological agenda. They were just bullies. 0:20:51.916 --> 0:20:55.396 Johanna Schneider remembers Dingle looming over Healey's time at NIH. 0:20:56.156 --> 0:21:02.196 What got under her skin was we spent so much time, energy, resources, 0:21:02.236 --> 0:21:07.476 and man hours answering those queries when she felt like, 0:21:07.596 --> 0:21:11.156 this is wrong. We should be trying to change the world. 0:21:11.196 --> 0:21:13.876 We should be looking at clinical trials, we should be 0:21:13.916 --> 0:21:17.996 looking at minority health. So I think what happened with 0:21:18.076 --> 0:21:20.636 John Dingall was she just felt like, this is politics, 0:21:20.716 --> 0:21:24.116 This isn't science, this is I'm not going to do 0:21:24.156 --> 0:21:24.796 this anymore. 0:21:25.636 --> 0:21:29.076 The Office of Scientific Integrity at the NIH, the group 0:21:29.156 --> 0:21:34.916 responsible for science fraud investigations, answered to Dingle. Sometimes people 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:38.036 at the OSI would simply transfer to Dingle and set 0:21:38.116 --> 0:21:41.236 up shop in his oversight office. The leaks that arrived 0:21:41.276 --> 0:21:44.036 on my desk at the Washington Post came as often 0:21:44.076 --> 0:21:47.436 as not from Dingle's office. I said in the last 0:21:47.436 --> 0:21:50.036 episode that I think of the science fraud panic as 0:21:50.036 --> 0:21:53.836 a consequence of our fear of AIDS, but panic needs fuel. 0:21:55.036 --> 0:21:56.636 Dingle was the fuel. 0:21:57.036 --> 0:22:02.316 People were afraid, John Denk, and I think that made 0:22:02.316 --> 0:22:03.476 an enormous difference. 0:22:04.596 --> 0:22:07.796 That's Joe Onic. He was one of Rames Sharma's lawyers, 0:22:08.156 --> 0:22:10.196 a leader in the small group who spent the early 0:22:10.276 --> 0:22:13.756 nineties trying to fend off the science fraud hysteria. How 0:22:13.756 --> 0:22:16.476 did the OSI investigators have the freedom to run amok, 0:22:17.236 --> 0:22:20.556 to spend years investigating typos? And I never said how 0:22:21.116 --> 0:22:24.036 they got away with that for so long, John Dingall, 0:22:24.756 --> 0:22:26.076 you think it's just all John Dix. 0:22:26.196 --> 0:22:31.396 I think that they had protection, and they could they 0:22:31.476 --> 0:22:34.796 knew they had protection, or I don't know how much 0:22:34.836 --> 0:22:36.876 they work aware of it in them most kinds of that. 0:22:36.916 --> 0:22:41.996 They understood they had protection, and I think they felt 0:22:42.636 --> 0:22:45.076 that they could get away with it. 0:22:46.316 --> 0:22:49.796 So Bernardine Healy thinks that the science fraud investigations are 0:22:49.836 --> 0:22:52.916 out of control, and she moves in to restore some 0:22:52.996 --> 0:23:01.236 kind of sanity. Dingle hears about her plan. He isn't happy. Thus, 0:23:01.516 --> 0:23:07.116 the hearing of August first, nineteen ninety one, Dingle invites 0:23:07.156 --> 0:23:10.756 two people from the OSI to give his side of 0:23:10.796 --> 0:23:13.516 the story, and then he lines up everyone in Healey's 0:23:13.596 --> 0:23:16.796 chain of command, her boss, her deputy, her legal counsel, 0:23:17.116 --> 0:23:19.996 and of course her. Over the course of the day, 0:23:20.516 --> 0:23:23.796 Dingle will slowly build the case against her. She will 0:23:23.836 --> 0:23:27.396 testify last when the trap is good and ready. And 0:23:27.476 --> 0:23:32.996 what's the trap? Ramee Sharma? Heally was at the Cleveland 0:23:33.036 --> 0:23:37.716 clinic when the clinic allowed Sharma's outrageous fraud to be perpetrated. 0:23:38.236 --> 0:23:41.076 What does that say about her leadership and character in 0:23:41.076 --> 0:23:42.836 the face of one of the gravest crises to hit 0:23:42.876 --> 0:23:50.396 American signs. Since he wants to humiliate her, Dingle wants 0:23:50.436 --> 0:23:58.236 to pick a fight with Bernardine Healing. Two weeks before 0:23:58.276 --> 0:24:01.716 the hearing, on July nineteenth, nineteen ninety one, two of 0:24:01.796 --> 0:24:05.636 Dingle's staffers went up to the NIH campus in Bethesda, 0:24:05.796 --> 0:24:10.916 just outside of Washington, to meet Bernardine Healey. They were 0:24:10.996 --> 0:24:19.036 laying the trap for the big day. I will say 0:24:19.076 --> 0:24:21.396 that I tried very, very hard to get someone from 0:24:21.436 --> 0:24:24.236 the Dingle camp to give their side of what happened 0:24:24.236 --> 0:24:28.876 that day. Dingall is now retired. I contacted his former 0:24:28.916 --> 0:24:33.196 press person, who promised to help but then vanished. I 0:24:33.276 --> 0:24:36.396 tried repeatedly to reach Dingall through his wife's press person, 0:24:36.676 --> 0:24:40.156 who now handles his press inquiries. She promised to help 0:24:40.556 --> 0:24:43.156 until I told her what I was interested in talking about. 0:24:43.636 --> 0:24:48.276 Then she vanished. Dingle's former chief of staff declined to talk. 0:24:48.716 --> 0:24:52.156 He emailed me. That was about twenty five years ago, 0:24:52.476 --> 0:24:55.796 and my recollections at this point are limited at best, 0:24:56.436 --> 0:24:59.316 which is funny because I have yet to encounter memory 0:24:59.356 --> 0:25:02.076 problems from anyone who was on the receiving end of 0:25:02.116 --> 0:25:04.996 the Dingle staff in those years. So what I'm relying 0:25:05.036 --> 0:25:09.596 on is a meticulously sourced account from Daniel Kevlis, now 0:25:09.636 --> 0:25:12.836 a distinguished historian at Yale who in nineteen ninety eight 0:25:12.876 --> 0:25:17.196 published an exhaustive history of this era. Kevlis tracked down 0:25:17.196 --> 0:25:19.796 as many people as he could who participated in the 0:25:19.836 --> 0:25:26.116 meeting between Healey and Dingle's staff. I'm reading now. They 0:25:26.196 --> 0:25:28.516 asked her about the house she was living in on 0:25:28.596 --> 0:25:32.436 the NIH campus, Did she pay rent? Did she have 0:25:32.596 --> 0:25:40.076 expensive commodes? Commodes I'm quoting again from Kevlis. Healey adds 0:25:40.156 --> 0:25:44.076 that they demeaned the NAH leaders. We were lap dogs, 0:25:44.276 --> 0:25:50.676 not scientific watchdogs, they said. Then they quote gloated unquote 0:25:51.076 --> 0:25:53.956 about having taken down some of the biggest names in science, 0:25:54.396 --> 0:25:57.396 and when Healey pointed out that those scientists hadn't been 0:25:57.436 --> 0:26:00.956 granted anything like due process. They said they didn't care 0:26:01.716 --> 0:26:06.556 because they knew they were guilty. Heally says, they meaning 0:26:06.596 --> 0:26:12.596 the Dingle staffers, behaved like quote thugs, absolute thugs. She 0:26:12.716 --> 0:26:15.716 later told a reporter that they laced their talk with 0:26:15.836 --> 0:26:23.116 four letter words, yelling, screaming insults. Then comes this. One 0:26:23.116 --> 0:26:26.196 of Dingle's men turns to Healey's deputy, who is in 0:26:26.236 --> 0:26:30.916 the meeting, and insinuates that Healey quote had a personal 0:26:31.036 --> 0:26:36.236 relationship unquote with David Baltimore, the Nobel Prize winning scientist 0:26:36.356 --> 0:26:38.036 who had been wrapped up in one of the longest 0:26:38.036 --> 0:26:42.676