1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:19,276 --> 00:00:29,716 Speaker 2: The following podcast contains explicit language. August first, nineteen ninety one, Washington, 3 00:00:29,836 --> 00:00:36,116 Speaker 2: d C. One of those sweltering DC summer days, Room 4 00:00:36,276 --> 00:00:39,716 Speaker 2: twenty three to twenty two of the Rayburn House Office building, 5 00:00:40,196 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 2: the big grand Congressional building right across from the Capitol. 6 00:00:43,796 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 2: It's packed press, lawyers aids, a long row of congressman 7 00:00:49,076 --> 00:00:51,516 Speaker 2: up on the dais, and in the chairman's seat is 8 00:00:51,596 --> 00:00:57,596 Speaker 2: John Dingall, Democrat of Michigan, A big man, well pass 9 00:00:57,676 --> 00:01:03,076 Speaker 2: six feet gruff, intimidating, giant bald head, thick black glasses, 10 00:01:03,516 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 2: a bouncer in a business suit. In his heyday, Dingle 11 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:11,876 Speaker 2: was perhaps hups the most powerful man in Congress. And 12 00:01:11,916 --> 00:01:15,156 Speaker 2: on this August afternoon he's called in a who's who 13 00:01:15,196 --> 00:01:21,436 Speaker 2: of the American scientific establishment for a reckoning. The hearing 14 00:01:21,556 --> 00:01:26,596 Speaker 2: was not recorded. All we have is a transcript. Dingle begins. 15 00:01:27,756 --> 00:01:30,676 Speaker 2: It is the practice of this subcommittee, since it was 16 00:01:30,676 --> 00:01:34,556 Speaker 2: first constituted by Sam Rayburn in nineteen fifty eight, that 17 00:01:34,676 --> 00:01:38,756 Speaker 2: all witnesses testify under oath. Do any of you have 18 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:42,396 Speaker 2: any objection to testifying under oath? This morning they raised 19 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:47,036 Speaker 2: their right hands a chorus of No's A masterpiece of 20 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 2: choreographed congressional theater until in our five it all goes 21 00:01:52,636 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 2: off the rails. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening 22 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:08,276 Speaker 2: to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. 23 00:02:09,316 --> 00:02:12,436 Speaker 2: This episode is the second of two parts about the 24 00:02:12,476 --> 00:02:16,116 Speaker 2: bizarre outbreak of insanity that swept the United States a 25 00:02:16,196 --> 00:02:20,036 Speaker 2: quarter century ago, a time when otherwise thoughtful and intelligent 26 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 2: people took temporary leave of their senses and convinced themselves, 27 00:02:24,316 --> 00:02:28,156 Speaker 2: against all evidence to the contrary, that American science was 28 00:02:28,276 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 2: riddled with fraud. And if you haven't listened to the 29 00:02:35,676 --> 00:02:39,956 Speaker 2: first part, you should before continuing on. Part one is 30 00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 2: about how the panic started. This episode is about how 31 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:47,876 Speaker 2: it ended when the immovable object named John Dingle ran 32 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 2: into an unstoppable force named Bernardine Healy. I remember it well. 33 00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:53,796 Speaker 2: I was there. 34 00:02:57,956 --> 00:03:01,476 Speaker 3: My parents, and particularly my father, thought it was wonderful 35 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:03,356 Speaker 3: for a woman to be a doctor. 36 00:03:04,516 --> 00:03:07,156 Speaker 2: The story of how the panic over science fraud ended 37 00:03:07,596 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 2: revolves around three people, Congressman John Dingle, a brilliant scientist 38 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 2: named Remey Sharma, and Bernardin Heey. Bernardin Heely was the 39 00:03:17,716 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 2: first woman to run the National Institutes of Health, the 40 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:25,316 Speaker 2: most important biomedical research institution in the world, with billions 41 00:03:25,316 --> 00:03:28,556 Speaker 2: of dollars at its disposal. This is Healey in an 42 00:03:28,556 --> 00:03:31,516 Speaker 2: interview a few years after she left the NIH when 43 00:03:31,516 --> 00:03:33,316 Speaker 2: she was head of the American Red Cross. 44 00:03:33,996 --> 00:03:37,316 Speaker 3: When I was growing up, it was really exceptional, unusual 45 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 3: for a woman to pursue a career in medicine, and 46 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:43,116 Speaker 3: as far as my father was concerned, it was the 47 00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 3: perfect place for me to go. It was a place 48 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 3: where I could use my intelligence and my hard work, 49 00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:50,356 Speaker 3: but also make a difference. 50 00:03:52,596 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 2: Heally grew up in a little apartment in Queen's upstairs 51 00:03:55,516 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 2: from her family's perfume business. Her parents were of Irish descent. 52 00:04:00,156 --> 00:04:02,596 Speaker 2: She graduated number one in her class at Hunter College 53 00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:06,716 Speaker 2: High School, then Vassar, Harvard Medical School JOHNS. Hopkins. 54 00:04:07,196 --> 00:04:10,796 Speaker 3: When I went to Harvard Medical School, roughly ten percent 55 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:13,756 Speaker 3: less than ten percent of the class were women. And 56 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:16,876 Speaker 3: in those days, although they probably don't like to remember this, 57 00:04:17,396 --> 00:04:21,196 Speaker 3: medical schools head quotas, and there was the prevailing attitude 58 00:04:21,476 --> 00:04:24,996 Speaker 3: that women were taking up a spot that wasn't necessarily 59 00:04:25,036 --> 00:04:27,396 Speaker 3: going to be used as well as a spot filled 60 00:04:27,396 --> 00:04:30,916 Speaker 3: by a man. Women had to have I think better 61 00:04:31,476 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 3: academic credentials and often go through much tougher screening. 62 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 2: When Heally was young, she wanted to be a nun, 63 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:42,596 Speaker 2: but her father said no, because that would mean she'd 64 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:44,876 Speaker 2: have to be bossed around by a priest. And it 65 00:04:44,956 --> 00:04:47,636 Speaker 2: must have been obvious even then that Bernard and Healely 66 00:04:47,796 --> 00:04:50,156 Speaker 2: was not cut out to be bossed around by anyone. 67 00:04:50,876 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 2: She liked to quote Saint Augustine. She cut her own hair, 68 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:58,116 Speaker 2: she wore a scott of suits. 69 00:04:59,556 --> 00:05:02,036 Speaker 4: She was brilliant and I've worked for a lot of 70 00:05:02,116 --> 00:05:05,236 Speaker 4: really wonderful and accomplished people. 71 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 2: This is Joanna Schneider, who was Healey's right hand during 72 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 2: her years at the NAH. 73 00:05:10,756 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 4: She could take a problem and sift through it quickly 74 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:21,836 Speaker 4: and come up with a couple of solutions, very very 75 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:25,436 Speaker 4: very brightly, and it was a beautiful thing to watch. 76 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 4: Her writing was beautiful, but the way she spoke was 77 00:05:29,676 --> 00:05:33,236 Speaker 4: beautiful as well. It was just a natural talent. It 78 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 4: was a god given talent, and so she was a 79 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:40,276 Speaker 4: bit of a force of nature when you met her, 80 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:42,996 Speaker 4: and I think most people felt the same way. 81 00:05:43,156 --> 00:05:49,476 Speaker 2: Tell me more so describe for listeners who have never 82 00:05:49,836 --> 00:05:51,436 Speaker 2: may never have refer seen the picture of her. 83 00:05:51,796 --> 00:06:00,276 Speaker 4: Let's see. Bernardine was tall, statuesque, blonde. She was beautiful, 84 00:06:00,596 --> 00:06:05,156 Speaker 4: but didn't know it, didn't understand the impact I think 85 00:06:05,196 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 4: that she had on people physically. 86 00:06:07,796 --> 00:06:09,996 Speaker 2: I talked to someone else who worked with Heally back then, 87 00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: a senior NIH official who knew five separate NIH directors, 88 00:06:15,036 --> 00:06:18,436 Speaker 2: countless Nobel laureates, and he said she was the most 89 00:06:18,476 --> 00:06:21,916 Speaker 2: brilliant person he'd ever met. They only worked together for 90 00:06:21,956 --> 00:06:25,716 Speaker 2: three years, twenty five years ago. And what struck me 91 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:28,236 Speaker 2: is that he used the present tense in describing her, 92 00:06:28,676 --> 00:06:31,116 Speaker 2: even though Healey has been dead for years. He said, 93 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:34,676 Speaker 2: her influence on me is everlasting. 94 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 4: Her first instinct was always fairness and justice, and I 95 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 4: just she was my father. 96 00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 5: My father was. 97 00:06:46,436 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 4: All about fairness and justice. She is a mix of 98 00:06:54,316 --> 00:06:59,076 Speaker 4: Joan of Arc, Madame Curie, and Florence Nightingale. You know, 99 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 4: she's all Repta in a scotta. Absolutely absolutely. 100 00:07:06,236 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 2: I met Heally years ago. I once followed her around 101 00:07:09,276 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 2: for a few days and wrote a profile of her 102 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:13,876 Speaker 2: for the Washington Post. And I have to say that 103 00:07:13,956 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 2: none of this is hyperbole. She spoke in casual conversation 104 00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 2: the way the rest of us could only speak if 105 00:07:20,076 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 2: we had a week to prepare. 106 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:26,436 Speaker 4: She had a wooden sign on her desk that said 107 00:07:26,676 --> 00:07:35,476 Speaker 4: strong verbs, short sentences, and that was Bernie Back. 108 00:07:35,516 --> 00:07:38,516 Speaker 2: When Healey was on the faculty of Johns Hopkins Medical School, 109 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:41,516 Speaker 2: there was an all male eating club called the Pittotomy Club. 110 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:45,236 Speaker 2: They had an annual comedy show, and one year the 111 00:07:45,276 --> 00:07:49,076 Speaker 2: mainskit consisted of a man dressed in a long blonde wig, 112 00:07:49,356 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 2: fishnet stockings, and coconut half brazier performing pornographic acts on 113 00:07:53,996 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 2: other physicians at the hospital. It was supposed to be Healy. 114 00:07:59,276 --> 00:08:02,996 Speaker 2: Heally heard about it and complained one person on staff. 115 00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:06,916 Speaker 2: Another woman came to her defense. One person people told 116 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 2: her she had no sense of humor, that she should 117 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 2: drop it, Bernardine, knock it off. Boys will be boys. 118 00:08:12,876 --> 00:08:16,036 Speaker 2: But she wouldn't. She kept bringing it up at staff meetings. 119 00:08:16,396 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 2: They told her she's hurting her career, and in fact 120 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:21,396 Speaker 2: it does. She doesn't last long at Hopkins. But this 121 00:08:21,556 --> 00:08:25,836 Speaker 2: is Bernardine Patricia Healey disciple of fairness and justice. She 122 00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 2: forces a face to face with the officers of the club. 123 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:34,076 Speaker 2: Heally didn't volunteer that story to me. I found out 124 00:08:34,116 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 2: about it when I was doing research for my profile. 125 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 2: At first, she didn't want to talk about it. Finally 126 00:08:39,676 --> 00:08:43,796 Speaker 2: she told me this quote. I made every one of 127 00:08:43,796 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 2: them answer how they would have felt if the skit 128 00:08:46,676 --> 00:08:50,556 Speaker 2: was about their sister, their mother, or their wife. I 129 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 2: went around the table and questioned their integrity, their sensitivity, 130 00:08:55,316 --> 00:08:59,876 Speaker 2: their character. We're talking about an incident from nineteen eighty two. 131 00:09:00,076 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 2: Mind you, Heally was a single mom, newly divorced, a 132 00:09:03,836 --> 00:09:06,436 Speaker 2: young academic, trying to make a name for herself in 133 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 2: a world that at the time was probably ninety five 134 00:09:08,636 --> 00:09:13,116 Speaker 2: percent male. But oh wow, Bernie in full Bernie mode, 135 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:18,316 Speaker 2: strong verbs and short sentences. I would not have wanted 136 00:09:18,356 --> 00:09:20,836 Speaker 2: to be one of those men around the table when 137 00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:23,676 Speaker 2: you said that she came to Washington and there were 138 00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 2: things she wanted to accomplish. Yeah, what was she what 139 00:09:27,276 --> 00:09:29,396 Speaker 2: was on her mind when she first started the Nah, 140 00:09:29,476 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 2: what is it she wanted to do? 141 00:09:30,876 --> 00:09:33,956 Speaker 4: And she just said, women have been locked out of 142 00:09:33,996 --> 00:09:37,876 Speaker 4: clinical trials. They've you know, they've they've constantly the scientific 143 00:09:37,916 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 4: community has always just extrapolated all these trials on men 144 00:09:43,036 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 4: to women, and it just it isn't necessarily good medicine. 145 00:09:49,636 --> 00:09:52,476 Speaker 4: So we need to get women into trials. We need 146 00:09:52,516 --> 00:09:56,996 Speaker 4: to open up an office for minorities. And she just said, 147 00:09:57,036 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 4: this is what we're going to do at the NIAH, 148 00:09:59,556 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 4: and we're going to open science up, We're going to 149 00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 4: change it. We're going to double our budget. Wow, okay. 150 00:10:08,196 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 2: What was the reception within? And I aged her cold? Cold, cold? 151 00:10:15,236 --> 00:10:21,476 Speaker 4: Why chili? They thought she was just being too aggressive, 152 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 4: to pushy, and you could feel it in the meetings, 153 00:10:25,196 --> 00:10:27,876 Speaker 4: you could feel it in the halls. 154 00:10:28,316 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 2: How does she react to that chili reception? 155 00:10:32,036 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 4: I don't know why, but it never bothered her ever. 156 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:41,916 Speaker 4: Never she said, I wasn't brought here to make friends 157 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:44,876 Speaker 4: or to get a group of people to like me. 158 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 4: I came here to make changes. And you know, God 159 00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 4: willing and the creek don't rise, We're going to do that. 160 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:57,316 Speaker 4: And it never. She didn't need affirmation. And that was 161 00:10:57,716 --> 00:10:59,356 Speaker 4: I was always fascinated by that. 162 00:11:01,156 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 2: At the risk of stating the obvious, you really don't 163 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:06,156 Speaker 2: want to pick a fight with Bernardine Healy. 164 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 5: Does Vaughn and nineteen thirty five December. At that time 165 00:11:12,116 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 5: British sales ruled REMAE. 166 00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:18,756 Speaker 2: Sharma, the second character in this story. Sharma came to 167 00:11:18,796 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 2: America in nineteen sixty. He got his PhD, became a 168 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:26,436 Speaker 2: full professor and made a revolutionary discovery of an entirely 169 00:11:26,476 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: new cell signaling pathway, which is best described by the 170 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 2: following analogy. If you want to drive from New York 171 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 2: City to Miami, you take the I ninety five interstate. 172 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:43,076 Speaker 2: That's the main transportation corridor of the American Eastern Seaboard. 173 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:48,716 Speaker 2: Now imagine somebody says, wait, I've just discovered another interstate 174 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 2: just as wide and long that also runs straight down 175 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:57,396 Speaker 2: the East coast. Remay Sharma found the body's second interstate. 176 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 2: In the late nineteen eighties, Sharma is in demand and 177 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:05,996 Speaker 2: he gets a fantastic offer to set up his own 178 00:12:06,076 --> 00:12:09,436 Speaker 2: laboratory at the Cleveland Clinic, one of the world's great 179 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 2: research institutions. And who's running the Cleveland Clinic at that time, 180 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:17,636 Speaker 2: a young dynamo named Bernardine Healey. Before she moves to 181 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:24,436 Speaker 2: the nih, he comes, starts work, and one day in 182 00:12:24,476 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 2: the spring of nineteen ninety he comes back from lunch 183 00:12:27,396 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 2: and gets a message He's wanted in Healey's office. One 184 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:39,476 Speaker 2: of Sharma's colleagues has accused him of fraud. There's an investigation, 185 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:43,756 Speaker 2: Sharma is cleared, there's a second investigation, then a third, 186 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:47,436 Speaker 2: the whole business ends up at the Office of Scientific Integrity, 187 00:12:47,676 --> 00:12:51,156 Speaker 2: the NIH's anti fraud unit, which is in the middle 188 00:12:51,236 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 2: of its full fledged hysteria mode, and the result unfolds 189 00:12:55,356 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 2: just as it did in the cases that I spoke 190 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 2: about in the last episode. There are leaks to the media, 191 00:13:00,996 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 2: sensational allegations, and in all of it the same puzzling 192 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:08,916 Speaker 2: feature as the other cases, almost no mention of what 193 00:13:08,956 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 2: the accused is supposed to have done. So let me 194 00:13:12,716 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 2: tell you what Sharma was accused of. Sharma writes a 195 00:13:18,036 --> 00:13:21,716 Speaker 2: grant application to the NAH many thousands of words, a 196 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:25,716 Speaker 2: small portion of which concerns two proteins, Alpha two A 197 00:13:26,276 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 2: and Alpha two GC. And on page twenty one of 198 00:13:30,236 --> 00:13:32,796 Speaker 2: the grant application, he has a line where he says, 199 00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:35,836 Speaker 2: he did such and such work with alpha two GC, 200 00:13:36,676 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 2: and it isn't true. He hasn't done that particular work 201 00:13:39,476 --> 00:13:43,436 Speaker 2: with alpha two GC. So the OSI says that's fraud, 202 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 2: but Sharma says, no, it isn't. 203 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:50,596 Speaker 5: When I was diving and I do not much diving, 204 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:54,996 Speaker 5: so I would consult with my wife. She how how 205 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:58,436 Speaker 5: I can do and so forth these emissions. Let me 206 00:13:58,516 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 5: help you, So she helped. 207 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:04,716 Speaker 2: Me This is the late nineteen eighties. Word processes are primitive, 208 00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 2: and to type the name of a protein, as Sharma 209 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 2: had to do, required the use of Greek letters and subscripts. 210 00:14:11,476 --> 00:14:14,956 Speaker 2: It was a pretty tedious, complicated process, a process he 211 00:14:14,996 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 2: had to do at least one hundred and thirty times. 212 00:14:18,116 --> 00:14:21,796 Speaker 2: So Sharma's wife programmed shortcut keystrokes for each of those 213 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:24,956 Speaker 2: two proteins. Shama showed me how it worked on an 214 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:27,796 Speaker 2: actual keyboard. Or they were side by side. 215 00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:30,196 Speaker 5: Side and she put side by side. Yeah, she could 216 00:14:30,196 --> 00:14:33,116 Speaker 5: twelve the macross the two keys side by side. And 217 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:35,276 Speaker 5: he says, when I needed alpha two A, press this, 218 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:39,836 Speaker 5: and I needed al for two GC appress this, and 219 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 5: that is how I kept on doing. 220 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:46,516 Speaker 2: But on page twenty one of the Grand Application, Sharma's 221 00:14:46,516 --> 00:14:49,796 Speaker 2: wife made a mistake a typo. She hit the alpha 222 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:52,596 Speaker 2: two GC key when she meant to hit the alpha 223 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:55,316 Speaker 2: two A key because they're right next to each other, 224 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:58,996 Speaker 2: which is how typos happen. How could they conclude that 225 00:14:59,036 --> 00:15:01,956 Speaker 2: a single typographical error constituted misconduct? 226 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 5: You tell me that that is what I have been 227 00:15:05,676 --> 00:15:09,956 Speaker 5: asking them all over and the iost the same thing 228 00:15:10,156 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 5: two appeals more. Can you magine in a document of 229 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 5: thirty nine are paging two grants for seventy eight pages, 230 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:21,596 Speaker 5: the only fine single typographical. 231 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:26,716 Speaker 2: Raaler seventy eight pages one typo, and the OSI gets 232 00:15:26,716 --> 00:15:29,236 Speaker 2: so worked up that at one point they fly in 233 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:32,716 Speaker 2: a team of its investigators to interrogate Sharma booked a 234 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 2: room near the airport. 235 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:40,356 Speaker 5: At at the airport, they asked me terrible questions, and 236 00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:43,316 Speaker 5: in talibrable. When they asked me some terrible questions, I 237 00:15:43,356 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 5: think they started to really bully me. 238 00:15:46,716 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 2: As they were bullying him, Sharma happened to look at 239 00:15:49,476 --> 00:15:51,476 Speaker 2: the cover page of the document they had given him 240 00:15:51,476 --> 00:15:54,836 Speaker 2: to sign. The date was wrong off by a year 241 00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:58,756 Speaker 2: in the summary of charges against him over a typo. 242 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:03,116 Speaker 2: They had made a typo. Just remembering the absurdity of 243 00:16:03,156 --> 00:16:05,636 Speaker 2: it all makes him jab the table and anger. 244 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:09,996 Speaker 5: I said, you yourself are dnamost turney even didn't know 245 00:16:10,076 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 5: I saw it. Are you yourself done a mistake here? 246 00:16:13,356 --> 00:16:16,676 Speaker 5: Now you have put wrong year, one year wrong. You 247 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:19,476 Speaker 5: can do a mistake, and you are trying to take 248 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:26,076 Speaker 5: me to the goals with one typographical subscript. There didn't 249 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:30,316 Speaker 5: answer me and then they left. 250 00:16:31,276 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 2: Sharma's contract at the Cleveland Clinic was not renewed. Doors 251 00:16:35,596 --> 00:16:38,156 Speaker 2: that were once opened to him were closed. 252 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 5: I was stained and I never recovered. My wife Satra 253 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:50,356 Speaker 5: mesh All. What you did recame from India and originally 254 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:56,716 Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty is all gone down with Those are 255 00:16:56,756 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 5: the consequences, and here we are talking about him today. 256 00:17:03,116 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 5: I still get emotional about it. 257 00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:10,196 Speaker 2: The man who discovered the body's second cellular pathway now 258 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:17,556 Speaker 2: works at a small university outside of Philadelphia. In the 259 00:17:17,596 --> 00:17:21,076 Speaker 2: middle of all of this fear over Sharma's typo, Bernardine 260 00:17:21,116 --> 00:17:24,916 Speaker 2: Healy was tapped to lead the NIH, and when she 261 00:17:24,996 --> 00:17:28,996 Speaker 2: leaves the Cleveland clinic and arrives in Washington, she realizes 262 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,756 Speaker 2: that what happened to Sharma is happening to a lot 263 00:17:31,796 --> 00:17:34,996 Speaker 2: of other scientists as well, that the anti fraud unit 264 00:17:35,076 --> 00:17:39,156 Speaker 2: at the NIH is in the grip of a hysteria. 265 00:17:48,116 --> 00:17:50,196 Speaker 1: I'm proud of the little things I've been able to 266 00:17:50,196 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 1: do while I've been here, and I'm to eat proud 267 00:17:53,596 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 1: or even still more of the people that I've been 268 00:17:57,836 --> 00:17:59,756 Speaker 1: able to serve and help. 269 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:07,396 Speaker 2: John Dingle, the third character in this story. Dingle is 270 00:18:07,556 --> 00:18:11,916 Speaker 2: Washington Royalty. His father, John Dingall Senior, was elected to 271 00:18:11,956 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 2: Congress in nineteen thirty three. As a kid, Dingall was 272 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:20,716 Speaker 2: a Congressional page. When his dad died in nineteen fifty five, 273 00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 2: Dingle ran for the family seat and won. He served 274 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 2: until twenty fifteen, almost sixty years, and when he retired, 275 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:31,636 Speaker 2: his wife, Debbie, ran for his seat and won, meaning 276 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 2: that we are now in the ninth decade of Dingle's 277 00:18:34,436 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 2: occupying that chair in the House. During the long years 278 00:18:37,996 --> 00:18:41,836 Speaker 2: when the Democrats controlled Congress, Dingall was as powerful as 279 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 2: anyone in Washington, and his self assumed role was congressional watchdog, 280 00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 2: scourge of fraud and abuse. 281 00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:52,916 Speaker 6: When I was chairman of the Commresce Committee, I was 282 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:56,636 Speaker 6: also a chairman of the Oversight Investigations Committee, and I was, 283 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:00,756 Speaker 6: I think one of the better investigators they've ever had here. 284 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:04,236 Speaker 2: This is Dingall in an interview with the Edward M. 285 00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:06,356 Speaker 2: Kennedy Institute a few years ago. 286 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 6: Sure was a bad year when we didn't make defense 287 00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 6: contractors give back a million a billion to two billion. 288 00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 6: And it was a bad year when we didn't frankly, 289 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 6: send a fair number of folks to jail or force 290 00:19:21,876 --> 00:19:25,796 Speaker 6: major changes either in policy or personnel or both in 291 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:29,956 Speaker 6: the federal government. I kept a picture of Joe McCarthy 292 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:31,956 Speaker 6: on the wall to remind me what I did not 293 00:19:32,156 --> 00:19:35,516 Speaker 6: want to be and what a bad investigator was. 294 00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 2: Dingle's oversight committee had its own squad of investigators, and 295 00:19:41,716 --> 00:19:45,236 Speaker 2: they were famous, big aggressive guys, very much in the 296 00:19:45,276 --> 00:19:47,676 Speaker 2: image of their boss. What they loved to do was 297 00:19:47,756 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 2: pester the agencies on their watch, the NIH, the Food 298 00:19:51,476 --> 00:19:56,276 Speaker 2: and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control. They would 299 00:19:56,276 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 2: send what were called Dingle grams, letters demanding action, expressing outrage, 300 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 2: requesting boxes and boxes of documents. I once asked the 301 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:08,356 Speaker 2: director of the FDA to count the number of letters 302 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:11,356 Speaker 2: dingle staff had sent him in a year and a half, 303 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy five. One hundred and seventy five. 304 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 2: Romeo and Juliet did not send each other one hundred 305 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:21,596 Speaker 2: and seventy five letters, and each of those one hundred 306 00:20:21,636 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 2: and seventy five letters required immediate attention. They would accuse 307 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:28,996 Speaker 2: the FDA of not being tough enough on the pharmaceutical industry. 308 00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 2: Then when the FDA got tough, Dingle would write them 309 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 2: letters accusing him of being too tough on the industry. 310 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:37,956 Speaker 4: He was sort of the scourge of the NIH and 311 00:20:38,116 --> 00:20:41,956 Speaker 4: his staff used to write us letters all the time 312 00:20:42,036 --> 00:20:43,036 Speaker 4: saying what about this. 313 00:20:43,156 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 2: I want to see that John Dingell and his staff 314 00:20:46,596 --> 00:20:50,996 Speaker 2: did not pursue a coherent ideological agenda. They were just bullies. 315 00:20:51,916 --> 00:20:55,396 Speaker 2: Johanna Schneider remembers Dingle looming over Healey's time at NIH. 316 00:20:56,156 --> 00:21:02,196 Speaker 4: What got under her skin was we spent so much time, energy, resources, 317 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:07,476 Speaker 4: and man hours answering those queries when she felt like, 318 00:21:07,596 --> 00:21:11,156 Speaker 4: this is wrong. We should be trying to change the world. 319 00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:13,876 Speaker 4: We should be looking at clinical trials, we should be 320 00:21:13,916 --> 00:21:17,996 Speaker 4: looking at minority health. So I think what happened with 321 00:21:18,076 --> 00:21:20,636 Speaker 4: John Dingall was she just felt like, this is politics, 322 00:21:20,716 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 4: This isn't science, this is I'm not going to do 323 00:21:24,156 --> 00:21:24,796 Speaker 4: this anymore. 324 00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:29,076 Speaker 2: The Office of Scientific Integrity at the NIH, the group 325 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:34,916 Speaker 2: responsible for science fraud investigations, answered to Dingle. Sometimes people 326 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:38,036 Speaker 2: at the OSI would simply transfer to Dingle and set 327 00:21:38,116 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 2: up shop in his oversight office. The leaks that arrived 328 00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:44,036 Speaker 2: on my desk at the Washington Post came as often 329 00:21:44,076 --> 00:21:47,436 Speaker 2: as not from Dingle's office. I said in the last 330 00:21:47,436 --> 00:21:50,036 Speaker 2: episode that I think of the science fraud panic as 331 00:21:50,036 --> 00:21:53,836 Speaker 2: a consequence of our fear of AIDS, but panic needs fuel. 332 00:21:55,036 --> 00:21:56,636 Speaker 2: Dingle was the fuel. 333 00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:02,316 Speaker 7: People were afraid, John Denk, and I think that made 334 00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:03,476 Speaker 7: an enormous difference. 335 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 2: That's Joe Onic. He was one of Rames Sharma's lawyers, 336 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:10,196 Speaker 2: a leader in the small group who spent the early 337 00:22:10,276 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 2: nineties trying to fend off the science fraud hysteria. How 338 00:22:13,756 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 2: did the OSI investigators have the freedom to run amok, 339 00:22:17,236 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 2: to spend years investigating typos? And I never said how 340 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 2: they got away with that for so long, John Dingall, 341 00:22:24,756 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 2: you think it's just all John Dix. 342 00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 7: I think that they had protection, and they could they 343 00:22:31,476 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 7: knew they had protection, or I don't know how much 344 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 7: they work aware of it in them most kinds of that. 345 00:22:36,916 --> 00:22:41,996 Speaker 7: They understood they had protection, and I think they felt 346 00:22:42,636 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 7: that they could get away with it. 347 00:22:46,316 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 2: So Bernardine Healy thinks that the science fraud investigations are 348 00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:52,916 Speaker 2: out of control, and she moves in to restore some 349 00:22:52,996 --> 00:23:01,236 Speaker 2: kind of sanity. Dingle hears about her plan. He isn't happy. Thus, 350 00:23:01,516 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 2: the hearing of August first, nineteen ninety one, Dingle invites 351 00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:10,756 Speaker 2: two people from the OSI to give his side of 352 00:23:10,796 --> 00:23:13,516 Speaker 2: the story, and then he lines up everyone in Healey's 353 00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:16,796 Speaker 2: chain of command, her boss, her deputy, her legal counsel, 354 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:19,996 Speaker 2: and of course her. Over the course of the day, 355 00:23:20,516 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 2: Dingle will slowly build the case against her. She will 356 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 2: testify last when the trap is good and ready. And 357 00:23:27,476 --> 00:23:32,996 Speaker 2: what's the trap? Ramee Sharma? Heally was at the Cleveland 358 00:23:33,036 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 2: clinic when the clinic allowed Sharma's outrageous fraud to be perpetrated. 359 00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 2: What does that say about her leadership and character in 360 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:42,836 Speaker 2: the face of one of the gravest crises to hit 361 00:23:42,876 --> 00:23:50,396 Speaker 2: American signs. Since he wants to humiliate her, Dingle wants 362 00:23:50,436 --> 00:23:58,236 Speaker 2: to pick a fight with Bernardine Healing. Two weeks before 363 00:23:58,276 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 2: the hearing, on July nineteenth, nineteen ninety one, two of 364 00:24:01,796 --> 00:24:05,636 Speaker 2: Dingle's staffers went up to the NIH campus in Bethesda, 365 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:10,916 Speaker 2: just outside of Washington, to meet Bernardine Healey. They were 366 00:24:10,996 --> 00:24:19,036 Speaker 2: laying the trap for the big day. I will say 367 00:24:19,076 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 2: that I tried very, very hard to get someone from 368 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:24,236 Speaker 2: the Dingle camp to give their side of what happened 369 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 2: that day. Dingall is now retired. I contacted his former 370 00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:33,196 Speaker 2: press person, who promised to help but then vanished. I 371 00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:36,396 Speaker 2: tried repeatedly to reach Dingall through his wife's press person, 372 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 2: who now handles his press inquiries. She promised to help 373 00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 2: until I told her what I was interested in talking about. 374 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:48,276 Speaker 2: Then she vanished. Dingle's former chief of staff declined to talk. 375 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:52,156 Speaker 2: He emailed me. That was about twenty five years ago, 376 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:55,796 Speaker 2: and my recollections at this point are limited at best, 377 00:24:56,436 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 2: which is funny because I have yet to encounter memory 378 00:24:59,356 --> 00:25:02,076 Speaker 2: problems from anyone who was on the receiving end of 379 00:25:02,116 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 2: the Dingle staff in those years. So what I'm relying 380 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 2: on is a meticulously sourced account from Daniel Kevlis, now 381 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 2: a distinguished historian at Yale who in nineteen ninety eight 382 00:25:12,876 --> 00:25:17,196 Speaker 2: published an exhaustive history of this era. Kevlis tracked down 383 00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 2: as many people as he could who participated in the 384 00:25:19,836 --> 00:25:26,116 Speaker 2: meeting between Healey and Dingle's staff. I'm reading now. They 385 00:25:26,196 --> 00:25:28,516 Speaker 2: asked her about the house she was living in on 386 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 2: the NIH campus, Did she pay rent? Did she have 387 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 2: expensive commodes? Commodes I'm quoting again from Kevlis. Healey adds 388 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:44,076 Speaker 2: that they demeaned the NAH leaders. We were lap dogs, 389 00:25:44,276 --> 00:25:50,676 Speaker 2: not scientific watchdogs, they said. Then they quote gloated unquote 390 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:53,956 Speaker 2: about having taken down some of the biggest names in science, 391 00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 2: and when Healey pointed out that those scientists hadn't been 392 00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:00,956 Speaker 2: granted anything like due process. They said they didn't care 393 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 2: because they knew they were guilty. Heally says, they meaning 394 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 2: the Dingle staffers, behaved like quote thugs, absolute thugs. She 395 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:15,716 Speaker 2: later told a reporter that they laced their talk with 396 00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 2: four letter words, yelling, screaming insults. Then comes this. One 397 00:26:23,116 --> 00:26:26,196 Speaker 2: of Dingle's men turns to Healey's deputy, who is in 398 00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:30,916 Speaker 2: the meeting, and insinuates that Healey quote had a personal 399 00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:36,236 Speaker 2: relationship unquote with David Baltimore, the Nobel Prize winning scientist 400 00:26:36,356 --> 00:26:38,036 Speaker 2: who had been wrapped up in one of the longest 401 00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 2: and most absurd of the OSI's fraud investigations. I think 402 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:47,356 Speaker 2: we can be certain that the phrase personal relationship is 403 00:26:47,396 --> 00:26:53,116 Speaker 2: a sanitized version of what was actually said. One of 404 00:26:53,196 --> 00:26:56,556 Speaker 2: Dingle's henchmen goes to the office of one of the 405 00:26:56,556 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 2: most senior science officials in the land, a woman of 406 00:27:00,356 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 2: principle and dignity and accomplishment, a woman who quotes Saint 407 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:08,436 Speaker 2: Augustine for goodness sake and in front of her in 408 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:13,076 Speaker 2: her presence, turns to her male deputy and says, I 409 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 2: know why she's standing up for Baltimore. She's fucking him. 410 00:27:18,956 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 2: Do you know what Healy says when she tells kevlis 411 00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:28,436 Speaker 2: that story, Just how slimmy is that one short sentences 412 00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:39,636 Speaker 2: strong verbs. Two weeks after all this, Bernardine Heally makes 413 00:27:39,636 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 2: the track down to Capitol Hill for her scheduled humiliation. 414 00:27:44,676 --> 00:27:48,516 Speaker 2: She waits her turn. She raises her right hand and 415 00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:53,156 Speaker 2: calmly answers question after question about Ramae Sharma's typo and 416 00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 2: the Cleveland Clinic. I would direct you to the exchange 417 00:27:56,956 --> 00:28:00,236 Speaker 2: beginning on page two hundred and twenty three of the transcript, 418 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:04,356 Speaker 2: where one of Dingle's fellow committee members, Norman Lent, Republican 419 00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:07,956 Speaker 2: of Long Island, starts to question Healey about the signature 420 00:28:08,036 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 2: page of Remei Sharma's grant application. As I said at 421 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:16,396 Speaker 2: the beginning, this hearing was not recorded, but it deserves 422 00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:18,236 Speaker 2: theatrical reenactment. 423 00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:24,156 Speaker 8: Congressman Lent, doctor Healy, there is something about these grand 424 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:28,516 Speaker 8: applications that intrigues me, particularly Grand Application NS two three 425 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:31,556 Speaker 8: seven four four oh one, which is the one dated 426 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:34,076 Speaker 8: February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty nine. 427 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:36,636 Speaker 2: He's talking about Remee Sharma's grant. 428 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:41,316 Speaker 8: You evidently signed and dated the grand application on February 429 00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:45,116 Speaker 8: twenty second, nineteen eighty nine, while the principal investigator evidently 430 00:28:45,196 --> 00:28:48,436 Speaker 8: did not sign and date the grand application until February 431 00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:50,516 Speaker 8: twenty fourth, nineteen eighty nine. 432 00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:54,556 Speaker 2: Lent's point is that when a scientist signs a grant application, 433 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 2: he or she is testifying that it's true. So if 434 00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:02,036 Speaker 2: Healey signed first, then she was signing onto something before 435 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 2: it had been certified as true. I guess Lent goes 436 00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 2: on and on, and the room is starting to get restless, 437 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:14,516 Speaker 2: because the promise of a Dingle hearing is a powerful 438 00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:17,876 Speaker 2: climax when the hammer comes down on some hapless victim. 439 00:29:18,356 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 2: But after a long day, all we've got is Congressman 440 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:24,276 Speaker 2: Lent yammering on about a signature page to someone who 441 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 2: probably signed hundreds of signature pages a year. Big John 442 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:31,276 Speaker 2: Dingle up on the dais, looks over it, Lent. 443 00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:36,756 Speaker 9: Would the gentleman yield. 444 00:29:35,716 --> 00:29:37,796 Speaker 2: And then he lunges for healing. 445 00:29:38,516 --> 00:29:42,316 Speaker 9: Why is it that the application was done up? Everything 446 00:29:42,356 --> 00:29:46,036 Speaker 9: was there except the signature of the investigator, and you 447 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 9: signed it. My problem here is that I see the 448 00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:54,516 Speaker 9: institution signs first, and then the investigator signs. I would 449 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 9: assume that it would be the investigator that signs and 450 00:29:56,636 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 9: then you say everything he says is true, and I 451 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:01,356 Speaker 9: am relying on the content and my own knowledge, and 452 00:30:01,436 --> 00:30:03,716 Speaker 9: I am also relying on his signature. 453 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,676 Speaker 2: At this point, all of us in the audience realize something. 454 00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:13,076 Speaker 2: This was all Dingle had. He had no case. This 455 00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:16,436 Speaker 2: is congressional theater, and the best he can offer is 456 00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 2: a jesuitical discussion of grant application signing procedures. 457 00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:24,356 Speaker 9: Here you didn't even have the signature. 458 00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:28,956 Speaker 10: If he had signed first and then I had signed, 459 00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:32,116 Speaker 10: you could argue, how could he have signed before I 460 00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:34,876 Speaker 10: gave my assurances that we were going to give him 461 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:39,316 Speaker 10: the space. Somebody had to sign first. 462 00:30:39,556 --> 00:30:41,916 Speaker 2: Because the hearing has been going on for five hours, 463 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 2: and she cannot believe that she, Bernardine Healy, is in 464 00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:49,756 Speaker 2: charge of the world's most important medical research institution, and 465 00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:53,036 Speaker 2: she's being forced to sit and be interrogated on the 466 00:30:53,076 --> 00:30:57,196 Speaker 2: sequence of signatures on a grant application that just happened 467 00:30:57,236 --> 00:31:01,876 Speaker 2: to include a completely meaningless typo on page twenty one, 468 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:05,476 Speaker 2: interrogated by the same man whose lackeys came to her 469 00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:09,796 Speaker 2: office and in front of her made the most violent incasuations. 470 00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:14,756 Speaker 9: The question, though, is why was it you had to 471 00:31:14,796 --> 00:31:15,516 Speaker 9: sign first? 472 00:31:16,556 --> 00:31:19,836 Speaker 10: I didn't have to sign first. This is the way 473 00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:20,636 Speaker 10: it was brought to me. 474 00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:24,476 Speaker 9: He signed second, and you signed first. 475 00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:26,676 Speaker 10: Who's on third? 476 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:34,796 Speaker 2: And in that moment, as the room erupts in laughter 477 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:38,436 Speaker 2: and Chairman Dingle's giant bald head turns the color of 478 00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:42,796 Speaker 2: a radish, the spell is broken. Every time I think 479 00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:45,596 Speaker 2: of that moment, I go back to my childhood memories 480 00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:48,356 Speaker 2: of Danny k playing the little boy in the king's 481 00:31:48,356 --> 00:31:52,116 Speaker 2: new clothes. The King is in the y all together, 482 00:31:52,236 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 2: the y all together. The Heally goes back to her 483 00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:04,716 Speaker 2: office and she says, that's it. From now on, if 484 00:32:04,756 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 2: you've been accused of scientific fraud by the NAH, you 485 00:32:07,756 --> 00:32:11,276 Speaker 2: have the right to an appeal, meaning no more conclusions 486 00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:13,996 Speaker 2: leaked to the press before the accused is a chance 487 00:32:14,036 --> 00:32:16,636 Speaker 2: to respond. You can take your case to a panel 488 00:32:16,676 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 2: of judges and lo and behold. Once the accused had 489 00:32:20,316 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 2: a chance to defend themselves, the cases against them fell apart. 490 00:32:24,996 --> 00:32:28,756 Speaker 2: The Appeals Board said, in the Remeis Sharma case, it's 491 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:31,676 Speaker 2: a typo. Heally called him up. 492 00:32:32,516 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 5: Ramesh. Truth always events, You are honest, and you won. 493 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 2: The NIH stops persecuting its grantees. The case against David 494 00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 2: Baltimore gets thrown out. The OSI drops its case against 495 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:54,556 Speaker 2: the Georgetown scientist Marguerite Hamish Mika Popovic, the AIDS researcher 496 00:32:54,596 --> 00:32:56,836 Speaker 2: who was hounded out of his job over the meaning 497 00:32:56,876 --> 00:33:01,476 Speaker 2: of the abbreviation ND, was vindicated. The verdict against him 498 00:33:01,716 --> 00:33:05,396 Speaker 2: was thrown out by Healey's Appeals Board. With this choice line, 499 00:33:06,036 --> 00:33:10,316 Speaker 2: one might anticipate that from all this evidence, after all 500 00:33:10,396 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 2: the sound and fury, there would be at least a 501 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:17,636 Speaker 2: residue of palpable wrongdoing. That is not the case. 502 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:20,916 Speaker 4: I went to her and said, we need a private 503 00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:24,116 Speaker 4: meeting with John Dingle. I'm going to set it up. 504 00:33:24,156 --> 00:33:24,676 Speaker 5: Will you go? 505 00:33:25,236 --> 00:33:28,996 Speaker 4: She said yes, called a friend, who called a friend, 506 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 4: got a private meeting with John Dingle, and she and 507 00:33:32,116 --> 00:33:32,476 Speaker 4: I went. 508 00:33:33,036 --> 00:33:37,476 Speaker 2: Healy's right hand, Johanna Schneider, sought a truce. Dingle was 509 00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:40,476 Speaker 2: the most powerful man in Congress, and heally wanted to 510 00:33:40,476 --> 00:33:44,316 Speaker 2: double the budget of the NAH. She needed him. But 511 00:33:44,396 --> 00:33:47,836 Speaker 2: you can imagine how it went. The unstoppable force and 512 00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:49,036 Speaker 2: the immovable object. 513 00:33:49,996 --> 00:33:58,116 Speaker 4: She made it clear that his people were pushing too 514 00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:03,076 Speaker 4: hard on things that didn't matter, and you know, he 515 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:06,356 Speaker 4: kind of dismissed. He didn't dismiss her, but you know, 516 00:34:06,436 --> 00:34:10,516 Speaker 4: he didn't engage on the topic, and so she went 517 00:34:10,596 --> 00:34:11,156 Speaker 4: back to it. 518 00:34:13,396 --> 00:34:14,836 Speaker 2: Oh, she kept on saying yes. 519 00:34:15,876 --> 00:34:18,996 Speaker 4: And you know, I'm sitting at my heart's meeting. I 520 00:34:19,116 --> 00:34:21,356 Speaker 4: just I you know, I thought the world of her, 521 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:26,996 Speaker 4: and I thought she could charm him again. But she wasn't. 522 00:34:27,636 --> 00:34:29,516 Speaker 4: That wasn't her agenda. 523 00:34:29,916 --> 00:34:32,276 Speaker 2: So you're sitting there and you're you're really really worried. 524 00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:35,236 Speaker 2: She's gonna she's going to stick the nails again. 525 00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:37,756 Speaker 4: She didn't have the same agenda I had, and she 526 00:34:37,996 --> 00:34:42,356 Speaker 4: was gonna let him know, you know, that he was 527 00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:46,516 Speaker 4: making a mistake. And I guess Bernadine was the one 528 00:34:46,516 --> 00:34:50,596 Speaker 4: who was going to say no more, this stops here. 529 00:34:51,676 --> 00:34:54,716 Speaker 2: Before the meeting ended, Joanna Schneider took a picture of 530 00:34:54,756 --> 00:34:58,236 Speaker 2: the two of them, Dingle and Heally. Schneider showed it 531 00:34:58,276 --> 00:35:01,996 Speaker 2: to me. Heally has a big smile, Dingle looks like 532 00:35:02,036 --> 00:35:08,836 Speaker 2: a stuck pig. Heally could have let it pass. Men 533 00:35:08,916 --> 00:35:12,436 Speaker 2: did fences a little bowing and scraping before the king, 534 00:35:13,156 --> 00:35:16,996 Speaker 2: but she didn't. Because the only way that hysterias end 535 00:35:17,556 --> 00:35:21,836 Speaker 2: is when someone has the courage to say enough, Why 536 00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:25,476 Speaker 2: do I love Bernadine Healy Because she showed us how 537 00:35:25,516 --> 00:35:28,316 Speaker 2: it's done. 538 00:35:30,196 --> 00:35:32,276 Speaker 4: The next day she sends me a huge bouquet of 539 00:35:32,276 --> 00:35:38,036 Speaker 4: flowers and she says, maybe Thelma and Louise lived happily 540 00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 4: ever after after all, which was darling. 541 00:35:44,636 --> 00:35:47,756 Speaker 2: What does she mean that you guys with Alma Louise 542 00:35:47,796 --> 00:35:48,956 Speaker 2: and you drove off the cliff. 543 00:35:51,756 --> 00:35:55,716 Speaker 4: See? And the reason I tell you that story is 544 00:35:55,836 --> 00:36:00,116 Speaker 4: she You know, she saw her. She was on a mission, 545 00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:04,236 Speaker 4: and for the people who worked for her, for the 546 00:36:04,276 --> 00:36:08,996 Speaker 4: people around her, you could really get caught up in 547 00:36:09,836 --> 00:36:14,116 Speaker 4: the best way, in the right way. You were caught 548 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:17,996 Speaker 4: up in it, and you thought you could change the 549 00:36:18,036 --> 00:36:22,436 Speaker 4: world with her. I always felt like the world was 550 00:36:22,476 --> 00:36:24,516 Speaker 4: a safer place with Bernard and Heliamat. 551 00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:38,076 Speaker 2: Revisionous History is a panoply production. The senior producer is 552 00:36:38,236 --> 00:36:42,396 Speaker 2: Mia LaBelle, with Jacob Smith and Camille Baptista. Our editor 553 00:36:42,436 --> 00:36:46,236 Speaker 2: is Julia Barton. Flon Williams is our engineer. Fact checking 554 00:36:46,276 --> 00:36:50,516 Speaker 2: by Beth Johnson, original music by Luis Gierra and special 555 00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:55,156 Speaker 2: thanks to our Revisionist History players Jody marcal Ken Marx 556 00:36:55,556 --> 00:37:00,076 Speaker 2: and Long Island's finest Mike Pesca, and thanks as always 557 00:37:00,516 --> 00:37:11,316 Speaker 2: to Andy Bauers and Jacob Iceberg. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, let. 558 00:37:11,156 --> 00:37:16,916 Speaker 8: Me repeat the question. What do you understand your liability 559 00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:21,956 Speaker 8: would be if your certification was erroneous. 560 00:37:23,236 --> 00:37:26,356 Speaker 10: My understanding is that if I told the truth at 561 00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:30,636 Speaker 10: the time that I signed them, I would have no liability. 562 00:37:30,756 --> 00:37:32,596 Speaker 8: Let me help you out. I think what you're trying 563 00:37:32,636 --> 00:37:35,236 Speaker 8: to say is if you sign the paper and it 564 00:37:35,276 --> 00:37:38,596 Speaker 8: contained false statements, and you didn't willfully make the false statement, 565 00:37:38,836 --> 00:37:40,276 Speaker 8: there would be no liability. 566 00:37:40,716 --> 00:37:42,876 Speaker 10: I made no false statements, mister Lent. 567 00:37:44,076 --> 00:37:47,476 Speaker 8: You made no false statements wilfully, I think is what 568 00:37:47,516 --> 00:37:48,676 Speaker 8: you want to set. 569 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:53,636 Speaker 10: Mister Lent. When an institutional official signs a grant application, 570 00:37:53,796 --> 00:37:57,356 Speaker 10: they sign as a partner with the investigator. The major 571 00:37:57,396 --> 00:38:01,196 Speaker 10: responsibility of the institutional official is to say, yes, we 572 00:38:01,276 --> 00:38:03,636 Speaker 10: are agreeing that this grant be submitted, and we will 573 00:38:03,676 --> 00:38:06,636 Speaker 10: provide the resources that are necessary to see that this 574 00:38:06,756 --> 00:38:07,636 Speaker 10: grant is done. 575 00:38:07,796 --> 00:38:10,196 Speaker 8: My point is, Doctor, Indeed, if. 576 00:38:10,076 --> 00:38:13,596 Speaker 10: You are saying that any institutional official that signs a 577 00:38:13,716 --> 00:38:17,396 Speaker 10: grant is certifying that they are one hundred percent sure 578 00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:21,356 Speaker 10: that everything in that grant is perfect, I don't think 579 00:38:21,396 --> 00:38:24,796 Speaker 10: you will have any institutional official signing any of our 580 00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:30,116 Speaker 10: twenty thousand NIH grants that are currently funded. 581 00:38:31,156 --> 00:38:34,796 Speaker 8: In view of the fact that you had certified as 582 00:38:34,836 --> 00:38:38,156 Speaker 8: to the truthfulness of the statements in the grand application 583 00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:39,516 Speaker 8: in the first place, I. 584 00:38:39,516 --> 00:38:43,996 Speaker 10: Did not certify to the truthfulness. I said, to the 585 00:38:43,996 --> 00:38:47,676 Speaker 10: best of my knowledge, those grant applications are correct. I 586 00:38:47,716 --> 00:38:49,956 Speaker 10: have no way of certifying to their truthfulness. 587 00:38:49,996 --> 00:38:52,076 Speaker 8: I don't want to overdo this. I read it once. 588 00:38:52,676 --> 00:38:57,676 Speaker 8: A willfully false certification is a criminal offense. I was 589 00:38:57,756 --> 00:39:01,476 Speaker 8: trying to help you there before when I said, what 590 00:39:01,516 --> 00:39:04,116 Speaker 8: you are saying is that if it is not a 591 00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:09,076 Speaker 8: willful misstatement, there would be no liability on your pot. 592 00:39:10,196 --> 00:39:14,676 Speaker 10: I wasn't even aware that there was a misstatement. I'm 593 00:39:14,676 --> 00:39:18,836 Speaker 10: not sure I understand this case is still open, mister Lent. 594 00:39:19,436 --> 00:39:22,076 Speaker 10: The jury is still out on this case.