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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Joining us for conversation live on Bloomberg TV. The seventeen

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Speaker 2: ninth Secretary of the Treasury, Scott Besson, Secretary Best and

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Speaker 2: it's good to see you, sir, Jonath's good to see

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Speaker 2: a warm congratulations from all of us to you. Quite

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Speaker 2: an arrival from what was it, Little River, South Carolina.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's an American success story, orly in America.

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Speaker 2: To the office of Alexander Hamilinson with some unique experience.

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Speaker 2: How is that going to help you, sir, approach some

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Speaker 2: of the challenges in this economy.

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Speaker 3: Well, Jonathan, the way I look at it, for my career,

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Speaker 3: for thirty five years, I've been sitting outside the room

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Speaker 3: with my ear up against the door or trying to

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Speaker 3: look over the transum, trying to figure out what policy

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Speaker 3: makers should do or going to do, and how that

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Speaker 3: would affect the markets. Now I'm inside the room trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out what everybody outside the room expects us

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Speaker 3: to do, how the market's going to react, and what

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Speaker 3: the economic and market implications are or short term, but

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Speaker 3: more importantly medium term, and how that's going to affect

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Speaker 3: the underlying economy.

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Speaker 2: We've got a lot to discuss. So let's start with

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Speaker 2: the debt market. What people expected you to do, maybe

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Speaker 2: was changed some of the issuance for treasury. Something that

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Speaker 2: you'd said back last summer about then Secretary Yellen was

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Speaker 2: that Yellin had taken control of monetary policy through treasury issuance.

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Speaker 2: Then you're basically maintaining her plans. Can you help explain that,

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Speaker 2: help us understand where you're coming from.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So the previous administration shortened some of the duration,

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Speaker 3: and we haven't shortened it further. We've just kept the

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Speaker 3: policy in place. And I believe over the medium term

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Speaker 3: it's going to play out as it becomes clear that

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Speaker 3: everything that President Trump's administration is doing will be disinflationary.

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Speaker 3: We're going to bring down energy costs, we're going to

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Speaker 3: bring down regulation, what DOSEE is doing in terms of

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Speaker 3: cost cutting, and I think once the tax cuts and

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Speaker 3: job aacks is made permanent, then you know we can

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Speaker 3: have a revenue increase cost decrease. And as you said,

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Speaker 3: is the nation's top bond salesman, I got a pretty

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Speaker 3: good story.

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Speaker 2: So what's the medium term? Help me understand that. What

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Speaker 2: is the medium term? And then once you see all

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Speaker 2: those things. Let's say those ambitions become reality, then do

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Speaker 2: you start to think about term again the debt.

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Speaker 3: Sure, but that's a long way off, and we're going

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Speaker 3: to see what the market wants. As Lisa noted this

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Speaker 3: morning that and it's fun to see someone who believes

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Speaker 3: that Fed minutes are exciting that the Fed said that

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Speaker 3: they may stop their balance sheet runoff. So you know,

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Speaker 3: easier for me to extend duration when I'm not competing

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Speaker 3: with another big seller.

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Speaker 4: So when do you think that time would be end

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Speaker 4: of the year or further down into the administration's term.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be. It's going to be path dependent.

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Speaker 3: We're still seeing sort of the residual Biden inflation that's

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Speaker 3: still coming through. Uh And I think as a the

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Speaker 3: market starts to realize what we're doing and inflation starts

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Speaker 3: to drop, then we will we will see. So it's

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Speaker 3: going to be path dependent. That's the eventual goal. But

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm not going to signal it now.

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Speaker 4: When you mentioned the Fed minutes, participants indicated yesterday that

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Speaker 4: one of the problems they had was they were waiting

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Speaker 4: for Trump policies to come into place.

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Speaker 5: Do you think that those policies.

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Speaker 4: When you think of tariffs, potentially deportations, immigration, this can

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Speaker 4: be inflationary. Is it going to hold back the FED

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Speaker 4: from cutting rates?

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Speaker 3: Well, to the extent the team transitory at the FED

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Speaker 3: is still they has any credibility. I would say that tariffs,

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Speaker 3: if they have any price adjustments, are the most transitory

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Speaker 3: thing there are, So I don't think that should hold

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Speaker 3: them back very long. And I would point out that,

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Speaker 3: depending on what number you want to use, ten twenty

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Speaker 3: million people who came across the border, we had the

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Speaker 3: worst inflation of forty years when we added ten or

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Speaker 3: twenty million people. So I'm not sure why people are

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Speaker 3: saying that it's inflationary to tell them to go home.

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Speaker 4: So when you look at team transitory, do you think

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Speaker 4: the next move for them would be a cut emory?

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Speaker 3: I have said publicly that I will talk about what

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Speaker 3: the FED has done. When I was a market commentator

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Speaker 3: and investor, I would talk about what they should do.

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Speaker 3: Now I will leave it to them, and sure Powell

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Speaker 3: and I have a weekly breakfast. We saw each other

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Speaker 3: yesterday and I will convey my thoughts there.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about what they have done. We can

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Speaker 2: comment on that you said you're willing to They cut

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Speaker 2: rights one hundred basis points going into the end of

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Speaker 2: last year, and I don't think happened yield to the

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Speaker 2: long end rows.

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Speaker 6: They didn't decline.

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Speaker 2: Do you think Feller reserve easing contributed to high long

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Speaker 2: end yields?

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Speaker 3: Well, Jonathan, I would just say the point of cutting

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Speaker 3: rates is to cut rates. So if they cut rates

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Speaker 3: and rates went up, then there probably was something there.

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Speaker 3: I thought that the rate cut in September, I said

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Speaker 3: it maybe even on your show here, that it was oversized.

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Speaker 3: The market responded, But now we're seeing term premium come

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Speaker 3: back down, so we'll see what happens from here.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the current rate right now is enough

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Speaker 1: to bring down ten year yields over time just by

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Speaker 1: virtue of being restrictive?

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Speaker 3: Again, I'm not going to comment on current policies.

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Speaker 1: I am curious you talk about how you do look

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Speaker 1: at the ten year yield every single day.

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Speaker 5: I love that.

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Speaker 1: I love that you're the top bond salesman in the

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Speaker 1: United States, and I'm wondering, are you expecting it or

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Speaker 1: hoping it to go down from here? Is that necessary

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Speaker 1: to reach to achieve your three percent growth target?

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Speaker 3: Well, what's necessary are they underlying conditions? So the underlying

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Speaker 3: conditions that we need for yous to come down for

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Speaker 3: growth to go back up. We've got this affordability crisis

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Speaker 3: in housing, We've got an affordability crisis in the auto payments.

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Speaker 3: So one thing that would be very stimuative. And as

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Speaker 3: Jonathan mentioned earlier, the tenures come down. Our rates have

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Speaker 3: come down every week since Donald Trump's been president. So

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Speaker 3: if we can continue that for fifty two weeks, that'd

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Speaker 3: be great, and it'd be very it would be a

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Speaker 3: win for the American people, which at the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, that is our goal. So if we do

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Speaker 3: what we say we're going to do, if we can

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Speaker 3: rein in the budget deficit, if we have non inflationary growth,

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Speaker 3: if we bring down energy prices, and I think now

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Speaker 3: that I have the numbers on the inside, there was

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Speaker 3: a big contributor to this massive inflation was a regulation.

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Speaker 3: I think you said earlier this morning that the what

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Speaker 3: if these things cause inflation? You know some aszam Marie

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Speaker 3: just said, some of the policies, Well, what really happened

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Speaker 3: under the previous administration was you created a demand shock

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Speaker 3: with government spending, but it was met by supply constraints

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Speaker 3: as there was more regulation and Trump one point zero

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Speaker 3: we created demand shock with tax cuts and it was

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Speaker 3: met by a supply side response of less regulation. So

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Speaker 3: you know, the Biden administration created this inflation that a

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Speaker 3: demand shock and constraining supply is the ultimate recipe for inflation.

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Speaker 2: So and now you want to count spending the DOGE program,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about it. You've called it one of the

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Speaker 2: most important audits to government ever. You remember the Clinton

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Speaker 2: tried something similar, the National Partnership for Reinventing Government. How

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Speaker 2: different will this be and what kind of cost savings

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Speaker 2: are even the team thinking about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and John, I can go all the way back

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Speaker 3: the given my tenure in the business, and go all

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Speaker 3: the way back to the eighties to the Grace Commission,

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Speaker 3: and they had some great the ideas, most of them

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Speaker 3: not implemented. I think that the Clinton Gore initiative, I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of that was academics. So this is

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Speaker 3: people on the ground all areas of government, and it's

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Speaker 3: moving quickly. And I really do think it's unfortunate that

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Speaker 3: it's been lampooned and they attack the way it has.

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Speaker 3: But when it's being attacked like this. It tells me

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Speaker 3: that there are a lot of entrenched interest in terms.

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Speaker 3: When you're moving people's cheese, they don't like it, and

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Speaker 3: it's not their cheese, it's the American people's cheese.

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Speaker 4: Well, how about putting some of that cheese back into

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Speaker 4: American people's pockets. How inflationary would those five thousand dollars

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Speaker 4: potential DOGE checks be that the President spoke about yesterday.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think again that if we are bringing down

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Speaker 3: energy prices, if we are cutting the regulation and so

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Speaker 3: I think that it's a to quote the Vice President

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Speaker 3: during the campaign, I think it's holistic, and I think

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Speaker 3: that it's all kind of one mosaic. If you were

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Speaker 3: to inject a lot of money into the economy, because Emery,

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Speaker 3: think about this, that we are at this massive deficit

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Speaker 3: to GDP six point seven almost seven percent, So what

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Speaker 3: will be happening on one side, You'll be bringing down

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Speaker 3: that spending in the economy. So very easy mental model

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Speaker 3: is every three hundred billion is about one percent of GDP.

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Speaker 3: So every three hundred billion that DOGE is able to save,

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Speaker 3: could you put that back in the economy into people's pockets.

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Speaker 4: One thing potentially that could happen, and people are questioning

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Speaker 4: it is maybe remarking gold. Elon Musk, who's leading DOGE,

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Speaker 4: was talking about maybe going to Fort Knox make sure

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Speaker 4: those gold reserves are there. That comes under your purview.

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Speaker 4: Do you have any plans to visit Kentucky?

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Speaker 3: I don't have any plans. I can tell you that

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Speaker 3: we do an audit every year. I can tell the

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Speaker 3: American people on camera right now that there was a

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Speaker 3: report September thirtieth, twenty twenty four. All the gold is there.

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Speaker 3: Any US senator who wants to come and visit it

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Speaker 3: can arrange a visit through our office.

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Speaker 4: Gold was your biggest holding when you were a hedge

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Speaker 4: fund manager before you divested to become the Treasury secretary.

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Speaker 4: So you know the value of where gold is right

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Speaker 4: now versus where it's marked on its balance sheet just

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Speaker 4: north of forty dollars an ounce it's close to three thousand.

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Speaker 4: Is it under consideration for this administration to revalue gold?

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Speaker 3: I think that somehow when we were telling about the

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Speaker 3: Sovereign Wealth Fund and I said monetize the balance sheet,

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Speaker 3: I can promise you that's not what I had in mind.

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Speaker 5: So it's not under consideration, not on the table.

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Speaker 3: That's not what I had of mine.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the DOGE savings that you have

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Speaker 1: so far, how much is that going to go to

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Speaker 1: offset some of the tax extensions that we see. What

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Speaker 1: other savings are you looking at that potentially are crucial?

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Speaker 3: Well, again, they're just getting started. And one of the

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Speaker 3: shocking things to me has been when we talk about waste,

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Speaker 3: fraud and abuse, we all think of what comes out

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Speaker 3: of d C. We think of some waste and fraud

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Speaker 3: and friction costs. Because one way to think about this

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Speaker 3: is twenty five percent of the US economy flows through

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Speaker 3: Washington d C. So if we can cut the friction

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Speaker 3: on that, that's a lot of savings. What we are

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Speaker 3: discovering now in waste fraud and abuse, there may be

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Speaker 3: much more fraud going on than we thought. And I

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Speaker 3: think you're going to be hearing about that over the

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Speaker 3: coming week.

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Speaker 6: Can we hear about it now?

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Speaker 3: I think you're gonna hear about it on the coming weeks.

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Speaker 2: What kind of fraud are you thinking about? What kind

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Speaker 2: of fraud have you identified?

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Speaker 3: Again, i'd refer you to so now out of you,

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Speaker 3: I'd refer you to some of the statements by Lee

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Speaker 3: Zelden at the EPA.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, we can build on that in the weeks

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Speaker 2: to come. I can refer to you some comments from

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Speaker 2: the Washington Post on defense cuts.

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Speaker 6: They're reporting that Pt.

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Speaker 2: Hexseth, the Defense Secretary or the senior leaders of the

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Speaker 2: Pentagon and throughout the US military to develop plans for

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Speaker 2: cutting eight percent from the defense budget in each of

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Speaker 2: the next five years.

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Speaker 6: You're aware of that plan.

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Speaker 3: I'm in contact with Secretary Hegesits, and we're working very closely.

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Speaker 3: And again, I'm not going to jump the gun here

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Speaker 3: on TV, but I think everything's on the table and

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Speaker 3: can things work more efficiently.

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Speaker 5: When it comes to the defense budget.

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Speaker 4: We've spent more last year on our interest payments than defense.

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Speaker 4: So are you hoping for twenty twenty five to spend

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Speaker 4: more on defense than the interest payments?

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Speaker 3: Well, it would depend how we got there too. That

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Speaker 3: does defense spending go down, does the interest go down?

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Speaker 3: We'll see what that calculus is.

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Speaker 2: I've got to focus on tariffs too. Revenue raising is

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Speaker 2: part of that story. Reciprocity, national security. You want fair trade,

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Speaker 2: but that we all want fair trade. The President has

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Speaker 2: discussed reciprocal tariffs. He's mentioned the Europeans also offered to

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Speaker 2: drop auto tariffs. Could we start there. Have the Europeans

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Speaker 2: actually made that offer? Can you confirm that.

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen that, but possible. I think that good

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Speaker 3: thing about President Trump's negotiating style is people put things

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Speaker 3: that were not on the table before on the table

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Speaker 3: very quickly.

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Speaker 4: So that would be reciprocity and maybe negotiating. But to

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Speaker 4: offset the tax cuts, where's the revenue raising.

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Speaker 3: So there could be Not everyone is going to give

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Speaker 3: on every point, right, So the Europeans seemingly put forward

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Speaker 3: very quickly auto terrorists, but not every country is going

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Speaker 3: to do that. My view, as I've said before, China

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Speaker 3: is the most imbalanced, unbalanced economy in the history of

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Speaker 3: the world, and they are trying to export their way

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Speaker 3: out of what is a very serious recession, and the

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Speaker 3: rest of the world can't do that. They can't dump

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Speaker 3: Chinese goods. They're going to have to rebalance their economy.

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Speaker 3: So tariffs on Chinese goods went up ten percent, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of that again Mexico, Canada, China. That was

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Speaker 3: in response to the fentanyl crisis.

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Speaker 4: China is the only one though that those terriffs have

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Speaker 4: actually stayed in place.

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Speaker 5: Is that the opening salvo?

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Speaker 4: How high do you think Trump wants to go when

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Speaker 4: it comes to Chinese terraffs Well, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Not going to give away as negotiating hand on TV.

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Speaker 3: I do have my first call with my Chinese counterpart

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Speaker 3: tomorrow morning, so I look forward to a very productive discussion.

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Speaker 5: What's the first point you want to bring up?

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Speaker 3: That we want to work together? And as we said,

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Speaker 3: a lot of the precursor ingredients from finanol originate in China,

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Speaker 3: so we really want to put a stop to that

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Speaker 3: very quickly.

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Speaker 2: Historically, there's been some currency concerns with regards to China

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Speaker 2: as well. In the conversations we had you before taking

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Speaker 2: up this post with you, you mentioned that some countries,

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Speaker 2: some currencies are undervalued.

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Speaker 6: Is China one of them? Is that something you'd like

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Speaker 6: to remedy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Jonathan, what I've said is, make no mistake,

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Speaker 3: the US still has a strong dollar policy, but that

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Speaker 3: does not mean that bilaterally other countries can weaken their

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Speaker 3: currencies versus the dollar or manipulate their currencies. But specifically

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Speaker 3: on China, China is a very difficult currency to value

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Speaker 3: because I really think that when we think about the

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Speaker 3: value of the R and B, it's in three different equilibrium.

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Speaker 3: On any academic model, say purchasing power parity, it's cheap.

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Speaker 3: On the other side, you have one point four billion

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Speaker 3: people who are subject to capital can controls and they

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Speaker 3: want to get some of their money out of the country.

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Speaker 3: And then you have what I would call the X factor.

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Speaker 3: If you put money into China today, what's your belief

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Speaker 3: that you will get it out in two, three, four years.

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Speaker 3: So it's very difficult to come up with a point

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Speaker 3: value of the currency.

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Speaker 1: You've talked about the desire to have a strong dollar

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Speaker 1: policy for the United States, But is a strong dollar

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Speaker 1: at odds with the idea of bringing industrial production back

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Speaker 1: to the United States and sort of speaks to some

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Speaker 1: of the concerns about other countries trying to devalue their currencies.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that we will necessarily have a strong

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Speaker 3: dollar if we run good policies, and I think we're

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Speaker 3: going to run good policies if we if we cut

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Speaker 3: the trade deficits. When you think about the trade deficit

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Speaker 3: is a combination of terms of trade value, the dollar,

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Speaker 3: and our own budget deficits. So if we bring down

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Speaker 3: the budget deficit, then I think everyone if we are deregulating,

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Speaker 3: if we make the tax cuts permanent, if we make

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Speaker 3: the US more bent business friendly, then everyone, all the

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Speaker 3: reserve managers in the world, all the private investors are

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Speaker 3: going to want a piece of that, and the dollar

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Speaker 3: will be strong. But we will be able to push

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Speaker 3: back on that through good policies, through productivity, the US productivity.

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Speaker 3: I think that I've been meeting with a lot of

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Speaker 3: the tech leaders lately, and I think we are very

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Speaker 3: close to the cusp of this AI finally coming into

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Speaker 3: the productivity numbers. Do you think that a.

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Speaker 1: Strong dollar is necessary in order to offset some of

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Speaker 1: the costs that could be otherwise associated with the tariffs.

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Speaker 3: Traditional economic theory would tell you that the dollar strengthens

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Speaker 3: on the tariffs. Who knows what we've already seen since

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Speaker 3: the dollar appreciation since November. Fit markets live in the future,

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Speaker 3: so have we already priced in some of that? And

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Speaker 3: on the other side, what we are trying to do

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Speaker 3: is to get other economies to successfully rebalance. My conversation

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Speaker 3: tomorrow with my and this is really just an introductory conversation,

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Speaker 3: but as we go down the road, the Chinese need

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Speaker 3: to rebalance their economy in favor of consumption, that they

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Speaker 3: are suppressing the consumer in favor of the business community.

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Speaker 3: So as that happens, then they will increase their demand.

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Speaker 3: Same thing in Europe, you know Mario Drogy For any

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Speaker 3: of your viewers who didn't see it, Mario Drogy had

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Speaker 3: a fantastic editorial this weekend in the Financial Times where

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Speaker 3: he said, look, we have put the equivalent of more

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Speaker 3: terrorists on ourselves or terraces on ourselves then the US

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Speaker 3: could ever contemplate. So could you get a very strong

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Speaker 3: euro Somehow they had an immaculate deregulation just quickly.

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Speaker 4: You're having this call with your Chinese counterpart. Will you

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Speaker 4: see him next week at the G twenty Finance Minister's meeting.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to Cape Town due to some domestic considerations.

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Speaker 3: I actually think that he's not attending either.

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Speaker 6: So is that what he's told you?

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Speaker 3: This is the readout that we've gotten.

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Speaker 6: Okay?

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Speaker 3: So and again I also believe several of my other

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Speaker 3: counterparts won't be there. I have been speaking in contact

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Speaker 3: with them regularly, and then I will be seeing them

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Speaker 3: at the spring IMF World Bank meetings in DC.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to you about national security as well,

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Speaker 2: and the dollar has certainly got a role to plan

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Speaker 2: on that. From the sanctions policy of the United States

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Speaker 2: as we look back, do you think that's been misused?

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Speaker 3: Excellent question, Jonathan that when I came into Treasury, if

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Speaker 3: you think about sort of treasury is five pieces. There's

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Speaker 3: irs on one side, the men on the other. But

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Speaker 3: the main focus of in the building at Treasury is

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Speaker 3: domestic finance, international finance. That's what I've been doing for

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Speaker 3: my career for thirty five years. I was able to

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Speaker 3: hit the ground running on that. The what we call

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Speaker 3: TFI terrorism finance is where my biggest learning curve is.

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Speaker 3: So I'm spending a lot of time on that, and

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Speaker 3: I'm reviewing the sanctions policies. Why do we do what

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Speaker 3: we do? Have they been effective? Are we running a

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Speaker 3: twenty first century program as opposed to some outdated modalities?

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Speaker 4: Well, the current sanctions are in place, and places like

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Speaker 4: Russia to try to get Puttin to negotiating table. You

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Speaker 4: are intricately involved in these in this deal. You were

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Speaker 4: just in Kiev. You met with President Zelenski. Trump yesterday

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Speaker 4: called zelen Is he a dictator without these elections and

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Speaker 4: said that he better move fast or he's not going

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Speaker 4: to have a country left. Does this language make it

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Speaker 4: harder for you to get that minerals deal over the

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Speaker 4: finish line?

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I think President Vilensky unfortunately escalated and has

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Speaker 3: put some daylight between the escalating that a lot of

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Speaker 3: his remarks in Munich I thought were inappropriate. President Zelenski,

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Speaker 3: when I met with him, assured me that he'd be

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Speaker 3: the signing the minerals deal in Munich. He has not.

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Speaker 3: And look, the real purpose here, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: turned into this media circus that President Trump had a

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Speaker 3: very elegant plan, and it was bring the Ukrainians closer

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Speaker 3: to the US. Let's do this economic deal. And the

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Speaker 3: even Carl Rove in the Wall Street Journal this morning

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Speaker 3: approves of it that the US US with greater economic

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Speaker 3: interest in Ukraine, provides a security shield. So the sequencing

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Speaker 3: of what was going to happen was bring the Ukrainians

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Speaker 3: closer to the US through economic ties, convince the American

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Speaker 3: people and the American public, get them onside, and then

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Speaker 3: tell the Russians go to the negotiating table with a

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Speaker 3: very fulsome message that if we need to, we will

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Speaker 3: take sanctions up.

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Speaker 4: Well, what about tapping the Russian frozen assets and three

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Speaker 4: hundred billion dollars? Would you force your European counterparts to

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Speaker 4: not just have them frozen, but actually tap them. Trump

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Speaker 4: talks about repaying the American taxpayer. Shouldn't Russia be a

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Speaker 4: part of that.

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Speaker 3: Well, what's happening now is they are being tapped. So

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Speaker 3: the returns from interest, the returns from the freezed asset pile,

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Speaker 3: is going to pay the Europeans. You know, what's very

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Speaker 3: important to understand here is everything the US has done

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Speaker 3: to date that the American people, the American taxpayer is

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Speaker 3: grant the Europeans. Roughly half of what they've done are loans,

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Speaker 3: and the runoff from the frozen assets is being used

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Speaker 3: to repay European loans.

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Speaker 2: Have you communicated that to the Europeans? The europe sent

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Speaker 2: with them?

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Speaker 3: What's that?

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Speaker 6: Have you communicated the Europeans the europe sent with them?

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Speaker 3: I think vice president of Vans that are a pretty

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Speaker 3: good job in Unich.

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Speaker 2: Do you think they understand that the United States is

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Speaker 2: running a deficit of north of six percent, close to

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Speaker 2: seven percent, and that the budget for defense is north

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Speaker 2: of eight hundred billion dollars do they think Do you

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Speaker 2: think they understand the gravity at the moment in the

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Speaker 2: United States the US perspective.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think that they understand that President Trump during

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Speaker 3: his first term this term, Vice President Vance and the

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Speaker 3: entire security apparatus had told them that many of the

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Speaker 3: countries are deficient in their NATO spending and they need

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Speaker 3: to come up. When I went to Ukraine, you're fly

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Speaker 3: into Poland. Poland is spending almost five percent of GDP

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Speaker 3: on defense. And look at Poland sitting next to Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: Poland is one of the great economics success stories in

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Speaker 3: the past thirty years after China. They've had the fastest growth.

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Speaker 3: So why couldn't Ukraine, with some US capital ingenuity know

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Speaker 3: how and root out some of the corruption do as

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Speaker 3: well as their neighbors done.

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Speaker 2: If Europe spends more, will it allow Americans to come

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Speaker 2: back on defense spending?

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Speaker 6: Is that the automate goal?

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Speaker 3: The ultimate goal is for the Europeans to come up

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Speaker 3: to where they've said that they are going to and

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Speaker 3: to provide their share of the NATO spending.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned sanctions, So do you have both on the

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Speaker 4: table ready to go? A sanctions ramp up or wind

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Speaker 4: down on Russia, depending how these talks go.

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Speaker 3: I think that'd be a very good characterization.

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Speaker 4: When it comes to the talks, Trump still thinks he's

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Speaker 4: going to meet with Putin. He said probably by the

442
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Speaker 4: end of the month. The end of the month is

443
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Speaker 4: next week. Are you preparing for that.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to give away the timetable, but the

445
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 3: president is committed to ending this conflict very quickly. And

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Speaker 3: I will tell you you're in Kiev, I went to

447
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: a children's hospital that had been bombed. And this was

448
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 3: not a children's hospital where you take your child if

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00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 3: he or she scrapes her like this.

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Speaker 4: So you can imagine I did that trip that you're

451
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Speaker 4: talking about just a few months ago. You can imagine

452
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 4: why they haven't had elections in right. They're living in

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Speaker 4: this martial.

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Speaker 3: Law they are, and it's probably a necessary, probably necessary

455
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Speaker 3: to move forward with the democratic process.

456
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Speaker 2: We've covered a lot of topics. One name that has

457
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: not come up up very much is Elon Musk. Let's

458
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: finish there. You've had some tremendous colleagues in your experience

459
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: over your career, including the great investor Stanley Drunken, Miller.

460
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Speaker 2: You've worked alongside Donald Trump through the campaign. Can you

461
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 2: just describe what it's like to work with someone like

462
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: Elon Musk, someone as successful an American business Just what's

463
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: that like day to day?

464
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Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, Elon Musk, like stand Druck and Miller, like

465
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 3: I always compare the great business people to great athletes.

466
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 3: They keep their eye on the prize, whether that whether

467
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 3: he's the Messy or Michael the Messy or Michael Jordan.

468
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: He is focused and his energy levels unbelievable, and he's

469
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 3: gotten to where he has because everything's on the table.

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Speaker 3: There's always this examination of why are we doing it

471
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 3: this way? Why are we doing what we're doing? And

472
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: most of all, if something's not working, let's fix it.

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Speaker 4: You know, Sam Altman was on Bloomberg TV just two

474
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 4: weeks ago and called Elon Muss insecure.

475
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Speaker 5: Do you view him as much?

476
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get into the tech magnet the

477
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: kind of slap best.

478
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Speaker 6: Secondly best, and I would say that's wise.

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: He is drawing criticism, though, when you and the administration

480
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: come out and pick out the various things where money

481
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: is being wasted on, I think we can all agree

482
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: that that's a waste of money.

483
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 6: Well, there might be some concern.

484
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: Is the way that some people are being laid off

485
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: in Washington that lacks some dignity?

486
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 6: Could you comment on that today.

487
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 3: Look, I think that there are many fine public servants,

488
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: but I think that I've been in Washington's three or

489
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 3: four weeks now, and there's a real bias towards the

490
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 3: status quo. And if you don't move quickly, then then

491
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 3: the lobbyists get involved, the entrenched interest, and it's impossible

492
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 3: to get anything. So, you know, any anyone who has

493
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: experienced uh in financial hardship, the any kind of the

494
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 3: mental duress, uh, you know, I'm sorry for them, But

495
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 3: that's also what the average American experiences every day. Most

496
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: of us. You know, you all come to work, you

497
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 3: want good ratings, the you know you uh you get

498
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 3: a performance readout, you really push forward. And I can

499
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: tell you that in Treasury, I have been so impressed

500
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: with the quality of the permanent staff and I want

501
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: to get everybody back to the office and a lot

502
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: a lot of people are on board with that.

503
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Speaker 4: When it comes to your prior life, you didn't have

504
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: a boss. You said it would be like atrophy if

505
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 4: you weren't trading financial markets every single day. What is

506
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 4: it like now to be in this position where you

507
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 4: make decisions that people can trade against what you're doing,

508
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 4: and you also have a boss that's pretty close to

509
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 4: you in terms of the Treasury Department in the West Wing.

510
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 3: Well, look, I only had my own firm for eight years,

511
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: so I worked with mister So with Stan Druckenmuller, and

512
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 3: it's a great feedback mechanism. And I think I had

513
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: the best position in DC. I'm on the White House

514
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: camp campus. We have a great staff in Treasury. I

515
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: can be in the Oval in four minutes and so

516
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: there's proximity. And again, not like Elon Musk, President Trump

517
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: is committed to shaking up the status quo. He came

518
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: in with a mandate and he's moving on it very quickly.

519
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 2: You're a total gentleman, and you've been very gracious with

520
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: your time. Thanks for being a good friend to this

521
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: program over the last year. Secretary best in there at

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00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: the Treasury secretly best and thank you, sir,