1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When I was a kid, 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: my grandmother had these tumblers I love to drink out of. 3 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: They've made them now in the present day so that 4 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: they're very similar to the way they were back in 5 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, and they're aluminum and you can 6 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: actually see the condensation kind of dripping off the sides, 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: and for me, that always indicated a cool, refreshing drink. 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: There's an alcoholic beverage out there that uses a similar mug, 9 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: but it's made of a copper and it's equally as refreshing, 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: but with of course, the added alcohol comes along with it. 11 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: Here's the recipe. Two ounces vodka, six ounces ginger beer, 12 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: half ounce of freshly squeezed lime juice, and this is 13 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: to be placed into a copper mug with ice and stirred. 14 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: It's called a Moscow mule. But you know, looking through 15 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: this recipe, I don't see an indication that fentanyl is 16 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: required to make this drink. Today we're going to discuss 17 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: the apparent homicide of Eric Richen's and it involves a drink, 18 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: the Moscow mule. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 19 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: body bags back with me my friend Dave Mack. He's 20 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: a senior crime reporter with Crime Online. Dave, We've been 21 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: following this case now for weeks and it just what 22 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: was it that Alice said? It just keeps getting curiouser 23 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: as we go along. It's a tragedy. I don't mean 24 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: to laugh, but my gosh, did you see this coming? 25 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: I really didn't. 26 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 2: No, I didn't, and I'm sure a lot of other 27 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: people will soon agree. When Eric Richins died, Corey Richins 28 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: actually wrote a book to help her children deal with grief. 29 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: And in promoting this book, by the way, self published, 30 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: meaning there wasn't a big book company that actually signed 31 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: her up to do this. She wrote it down and 32 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: she paid to have it put out there, and so 33 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: that got her on local TV. So when the news 34 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: media is covering this story, what do we have. We've 35 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 2: got the grieving widow talking about helping her children and 36 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: how they wrote this book, and here's the book. So 37 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: it's that footage of being able to add to the 38 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: story that gets more attention, or the fact that it's 39 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: just a crazy story about rich people killing one another, 40 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: you know. 41 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that and then you take I'm kind of 42 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: interest stood in Dave in this dynamic, considering that this 43 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: has been in this being, this book has been introduced 44 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: into the storyline. Yes, she did self publish, obviously in 45 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: the area in which she lived. It. You know, it 46 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: had some traction because she was on local news. And 47 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure that what's the word the media always uses, brave, 48 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: She's being brave. She's on television, she's there in the 49 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: face of this tragedy that has confronted her and her 50 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: children which are left behind. And I can tell you 51 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: the through line kind of went something like this, I 52 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: would imagine, Well, I saw in my children a great 53 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: need to be helped through this time period in Greece, 54 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: and I just knew that I didn't want others to 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: suffer as my family has suffered. Now, I thought that 56 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: this would be a way to help. That's kind of 57 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: the way these things kind of play out. I really 58 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: wonder though, and this is very twisted, I guess in 59 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: its own way, how many people were truly grieving out there, 60 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: had lost spouse and they had kids, and they latched 61 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: onto this and just followed this just a bit here, 62 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: I won't go too far with it, And they began 63 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: to follow this. They read the book and they thought, God, 64 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: this would really be good for my kids. I'm having 65 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: a hard hard time, and it's almost as like this 66 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: miracle has happened. I have a tool now at my disposal, 67 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: and they've read this thing. They've disseminated the information to 68 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: the kids. Maybe they've read it with kids in their 69 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: current situation. And now they look back and they see 70 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: what she's accused of, and it really gives you pause, 71 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: doesn't it. 72 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: Yes, because Corey Rigins is now accused of murdering her 73 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: husband through poisoning. I mean, we'll get more to detail 74 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: on that in just a bit, but I'm thinking about 75 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: the people who actually did hold on to this, and 76 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: not just talking about children and losing a parent. I'm 77 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 2: talking about anybody dealing with any greek and sharing that 78 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: grief with loved ones and trying to get through it 79 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: and holding onto this and really, you know, being able 80 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: to look at her and go, Wow, I can get 81 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: through that. 82 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: She did. 83 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: She's on TV talking about it. I can get through 84 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: it too. And that's the shocking depth of depravity we 85 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: find ourselves today. 86 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again there's that word, and it seems to 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: be a theme that runs through a lot of these cases. Depravity. 88 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: You think about the depths to which people can sink 89 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: in the face of these things, and from an investigative standpoint, 90 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: you begin to wonder, is this part and parcel of 91 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: an attempt to throw investigators off to truly buy into 92 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: the character of the grieving widow. I can tell you this, 93 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: A lot more is going to come out about this case. 94 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: She's been charged, she's in custody, and we're going to 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: hear a lot about motivation and the endgame, which, of course, 96 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 1: in this particular case, led to the death of her husband. 97 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: The thing about poisoners, they are so very stealthy. I 98 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: appeared on a television show several episodes a thing that 99 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: was produced down in Australia called Poisonous Liaisons. It was 100 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: one of the most satisfying things I'd done. And all 101 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: of the deaths that we covered on that program had 102 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: to do with poisoners. And they've been around, they're as 103 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: old as time, but they vary so much differently than 104 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: what you think of a person that goes out and 105 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: commits some kind of just brutal homicide with their bare 106 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: hands or a weapon. It requires a level of intimacy 107 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: that you don't see in other case, because you can 108 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: have intimacy when it comes to stabbing someone to death 109 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: or certainly bludgeoning someone. But how is it that you 110 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: can kind of insert yourself into their world the victim, 111 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: that is, get close enough to them so that you 112 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: can have them ingest a substance that you know good 113 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: and well. It could in fact lead to their death. 114 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: And that may be what has happened here in the 115 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: death of Eric Ritchins. 116 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: When you read off the ingredients the way the Moscow 117 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: mule is served. Had you ever heard of that drink? 118 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: Joe? Yeah, Yeah, They've been popular for a while, and 119 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: I really wonder if that's the reason it was chosen. 120 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: Perhaps the thing that it does contain is ginger, and 121 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: ginger for years and years actually has a medicinal impact 122 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: that's legitimate. You can take ground ginger and it sues nausea. 123 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: These sorts of things I remember when I was little. 124 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of people in our generation 125 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: that can identify with this. One of the things my 126 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: grandma will give me was ginger ale and Sherbert. My 127 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: thought is that vodka has a taste to it but 128 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: it's not as pronounced as say, like tequila or something 129 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: like that. It's it's a bit more subtle. It's not 130 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: even as pronounced as gin, and certainly not as whiskey. 131 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: And then you can mask certain tastes with it. So 132 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: if you're going to put some type of element, introduce 133 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: some element into this recipe, I think that this is 134 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: a perfect selection. Not to mention your masking, it would 135 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: lime as well. 136 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: Let's get into this family you want to for just 137 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: a minute, Yeah, I'd love to. We're dealing with Eric 138 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: and Corey Richins. Eric Richins was from a very well 139 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: established family. There could be book just written on his 140 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: family and the name. And this was actually such a 141 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: good man. You see people all the time that you 142 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: know from work, school, church, whatever, and you find those 143 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: people that are just really good and you kind of think, 144 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: is he like this for real? 145 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: Up? 146 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: Eric Richins was that guy, loved his kids, had a 147 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: great business, He had all the trappings, you know, coming 148 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: from a wealthy family. Just a good guy. To give 149 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: you a little tip, Eric was an outdoorsy guy and 150 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: he was kind of known in the family as the 151 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: guy that everybody's waiting on you to have a big 152 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: family dinner and AERA's running behind because he decided to 153 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: take his four wheeler out for a few minutes before 154 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: they left and he wrecked it. But he's on his way. 155 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: He just got a dirty shirt on. That was Eric. Yeah, 156 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: this was a guy that had three boys that were 157 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: involved in all kinds of sports, right, and he either 158 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: coached or was the assistant coach on all of their teams. 159 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: On top of that, guy had a bang in business, 160 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: which actually does come into play in this story when 161 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: we get right down to it. Corey and Eric had 162 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: been married for nine years, three boys. Corey was in 163 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: real estate and had a real estate license and flipped 164 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: houses that depended on some of Eric's money and ability 165 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 2: to create money to get loans and things like that. 166 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: It came down to this one huge property that depending 167 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: on which article you're reading, it was either a two 168 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: million dollar property or a three point seven to five 169 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: million dollar property that Corey wanted to buy and flip. 170 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: It was unfinished and just fyi, the home that was 171 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: the final straw on the camel's back in the rich 172 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: In's couplehood actually has been known as the money pit 173 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 2: in that area, and some people have referred to it 174 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: as a cursed property. I'm not saying it caused Eric 175 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: to die, but it was part of the reasons that 176 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: Corey was really trying to get him out of the picture. 177 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: There are many times where there's the proverbial straw, you know, 178 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: that goes without saying. And I'm looking at an image 179 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: of it right now, and it's massive, And of course 180 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: it's almost like when you go out to Utah, everywhere 181 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: you look you get another postcard shot. Even though this 182 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: thing is unfinished. It's massive. It's certainly not my taste 183 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: and certainly not within the realm of what I could 184 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: do financially. But you look at it and it's framed 185 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: with mountains all the way around it. It looks like 186 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: it would be a lovely, lovely place. But when we're 187 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: investigating deaths, there's any number of motivations, as we know, 188 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: and as we've talked about in the past relative to homicides, 189 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: certainly financial it goes without saying, is generally in the 190 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: top three, and you can connect all kinds of stuff 191 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: to that. Either financial distress, maybe it's connected to finances 192 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: as they apply to drugs, a need for money, an 193 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: acquisition of money, It can also part and parcel of 194 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: anger that's generated as a result of money that's owed 195 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: to individuals or the position that debt is going to 196 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: put somebody in. But is this catastrophic enough? Is this 197 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: situation because you know, there's a lot of people out 198 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: there that have pulled themselves out of the ditch proverbally 199 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: certainly in real estate, that have made horrible decisions over 200 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: the years, I don't know that it rises to the 201 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: level where you think, well, the only answer I have 202 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: here is am I going to take the ultimate step 203 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: and murder my spouse over? So that leads me to 204 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: the question is is this the first time out of 205 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: the gate that she has attempted to do this? Because, 206 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: as has been alleged by the authorities, when you're thinking 207 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: about how much of a dosage to apply to an individual, 208 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: this requires considerable amount of thought if you approach it 209 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: as if it's a scientific endeavor. There have been cases 210 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: over the years where people have applied graduated amounts of 211 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: a substance to some medium like a drink or food 212 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: or something like that, and say they ate that they 213 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: got a little bit sick and it didn't really have 214 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: the impact that I thought that it was going to have. 215 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and kick it up a notch. And 216 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: this does It requires a certain level of a nerve, 217 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: if you will, in order to get close enough to 218 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: somebody to do this. 219 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: When you look at their relationship and you have the 220 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: picture being painted, Eric Richins is the dream father. There 221 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: was a lot going on negatively with regard to Corey 222 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 2: Richins and what she was doing. Reportedly, she was stealing 223 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: from her husband financially, and he didn't just find out 224 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: about it a week before he died. The actual thieving 225 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: she is accused of began about two and a half 226 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: years into the marriage. They got married in twenty thirteen. 227 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: By twenty sixteen, she was already stealing money. And we're 228 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: not talking a little bit here. Reportedly, hundreds of thousands 229 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: of dollars just got morgan. Eric found out in twenty twenty. 230 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: That's when we know he actually found out that Corey 231 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: had taken out at least one hundred thousand dollars from 232 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: his accounts. You know, we mentioned the business accounts. You know, 233 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: he had access to a lot of cash. She borrowed 234 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: large amounts of money on his credit cards, over thirty 235 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. There she actually borrowed two hundred and fifty 236 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: thousand dollars using a fragol power of attorney, forging his 237 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: initials on documents, allowing her to act on his behalf, 238 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: and he found out about it. This is again a 239 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, so already Eric knew what his 240 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 2: wife was all about. He was making plans to get 241 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: himself out of this. His biggest issue with the boys 242 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: wasn't money, but he was making plans. And that's why 243 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: when we look at the last few months of their 244 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: life together, Corey realized she's losing the cash cow. If 245 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: she can get rid of him and keep the money, 246 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: her life keeps cruising ahead. Where when you mentioned more 247 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: than one time, as far as we know, she hadn't 248 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: killed anybody up to this point, so I imagine figuring 249 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: out what do I use to kill him? She probably 250 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: had to do some research there, and she happened to 251 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: have a friend I put that in air quotes. Don't 252 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: know how close they were, but somebody she had known 253 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: for a while who was actually kind of a drug dealer, 254 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: and so I'm sure they had a few discussions about, Hey, 255 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: what kind of drugs could I use for X y 256 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: Z and that's where this all began. So I'm wondering, 257 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: at what level do you find out how much a 258 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: person has used to poison somebody. Can you go back 259 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: and find out did she try to use other chemicals 260 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: to kill Eric in the months leading up to his 261 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: actual death? Is there a way to figure that out? 262 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: No? Not. Most of the time where you can go 263 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: back and check. What you're looking for is to see 264 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: that drugs have been metabolized in the system, and that 265 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: means kind of gone through the cycle where it passes 266 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: through initially from initial ingestion or initial injection. However it 267 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: is applied and it passes out of the system. Drugs 268 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: do have a life, to have a half life within 269 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: a system. But you know, I found out something else 270 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: interesting about this case. Apparently, at some point in time, 271 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: it has been alleged that Eric really believed that she 272 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: may be trying to kill him. There was one instance 273 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: where he had eaten a sandwich I think that had 274 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: been given to him, and he began to have what 275 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: he thought was an allergic reaction. As a matter of fact, 276 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: it had gotten so bad that he had to use 277 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: one of his kid's EpiPen injectors to get over the 278 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: hump with this. I don't know that really how deeply 279 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: at that time this was dug into. He had apparently 280 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: mentioned it to some of his peripheries in his life 281 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: that he thought that maybe she was trying to kill him. 282 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: But at that point in time, I guess he was 283 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: thinking that maybe it was an anaphylaxis event, which can 284 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: you can have a seizure. I'll have to tell you 285 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: about a case I worked many years ago where the 286 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: lady committed suicide via anaphylaxis. It never worked anything like that, 287 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: and it's a horrible way to die. But at least 288 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: his perception at the time was that he started out 289 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: I believe in that particular case where he took a 290 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: small dosage to benagerill, which can help in milder cases, 291 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: but he felt the need or compelled to grab hold 292 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: of his child's EpiPen and inject it into his leg, 293 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: which is an intramuscular injection where you go right down 294 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: into the muscle of the leg, generally the meaty part, 295 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: and slam this thing home. And it's very powerful. And 296 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: this attack that he was having subsided at that moment 297 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: in tom So is this indicative of a history, perhaps 298 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: that there's something going on, But there's really no way 299 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: from that perspective where you could go back and see, 300 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: in fact, if whatever substance that was that had been 301 00:17:38,840 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: applied to him was present at autopsy. It's not within 302 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: the norm for thirty nine year old active males with 303 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: no previous medical history to suddenly die. It doesn't work 304 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: that way. You have an individual that suddenly dies that 305 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: fits that parameter, it will draw the eye of investigators. 306 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: And the first stop along this route is going to 307 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: be the medical examiner because they'll be tasked with it. 308 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: And Dave, just so our listeners understand, if I were 309 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 1: as an investigator that worked for the medical examiner, they 310 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 1: have state medical Examiner in Utah, and I had a 311 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: young man that died like this, I am not just 312 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: going to be able to waltz over to his attending physician, 313 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: who might be a guy that he just goes and 314 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: sees for an annual checkup and say, hey, doc, yeah, 315 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: one of your patients has just passed away. Will you 316 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: sign his death certificate? That doctor is going to look 317 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: at me as if I have spiders crawling out of 318 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: my ears and say have you lost your mind? I'm 319 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: not signing this. He has no previous medical history at all. 320 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: I'm not putting my name on that because he's got 321 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: to conjure up a cause of death for this person. 322 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: And it may, on the surface appear to be a 323 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: natural event because he doesn't have any trauma. Okay, but 324 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: this requires on the part of the medical examiner to 325 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: do a deep dive to try to understand what in 326 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: fact happened. What was it this bolt of thunder that 327 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: brought down death upon this man at such a young age. 328 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 2: When the police are called to an event like this 329 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: thirty nine year old guy dad in the middle of 330 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: the night and in a seemingly comforting area. You know, 331 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: he's at home in bed and being a wife and kids, 332 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 2: the whole nine. I'm wondering, as you get into this 333 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: and you start looking around as an investigator of people 334 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: who are no longer with us, if you notice the 335 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: man that is dead doesn't appear to have been like 336 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 2: there was no life saving measures, no CPR. But the 337 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 2: spouse says, yeah, I did CPR, but nothing is there. 338 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: Can you figure that out? When you're looking at the body? 339 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: Can you tell if somebody has actually tried to do 340 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: life saving measures on the individual. 341 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: Well, that's a tough thing. First off, if you've been trained, 342 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: for instance, in basic life saving. If folks go to 343 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: the Red Cross, for instance, and they get their CPR certification, 344 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: you know one of the things that they want you 345 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: to do, if at all possible, is to get the 346 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: subject onto if they're in cardiac arrest, get them onto 347 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: a hard surface, And the purpose of that is so 348 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: that you can be above them and you can do 349 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: an overall examination very quickly. You're looking for things, and 350 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: you have to be able to get the airway open, 351 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: which is generally facilitated more easily on that kind of 352 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,239 Speaker 1: surface if you're not a medical professional, where you can 353 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: kind of arch the neck back observe the airway. The 354 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: old thing about sweeping the airways, see if the airway 355 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: secluded block by anything. And then to do chess compressions, 356 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: you need a firm surface. You're interlocking your hands, you're 357 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: placing them adjacent to the sternum, and you're doing these 358 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: these counts of compressions and then breaths that you have 359 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: to do. So one of the things that we'll look 360 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: for is you said that you try to save him. Well, 361 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: why didn't you pull them over onto the floor. I mean, 362 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: she could easily say it was a lot bigger than me. 363 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: I was just frantic. I was just trying to save him. 364 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: But that's one of the first indicators. Have they taken 365 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: any steps to see, you know, if there's any kind 366 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: of trauma, And of course if EMTs roll out there, 367 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty obvious. They leave debris everywhere 368 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: because they're cracking open. And I'm not saying that I'm 369 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: not in an accusatory the way people have to understand. 370 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: You know, they have to crack open their supplies there 371 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: and they just drop them because they're in the midst 372 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: of trying to save somebody's life. And you'll have disposable 373 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: amboo bags, which are the little breathing bags that they use, 374 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: and you'll have ekg leads that are stuck on various 375 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: locations anatomically on the body, and sometimes in the field 376 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: you can see paddle marks on the chest where they've 377 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, they've tried to jolt the individual back into 378 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: back into rhythm. As an investigator, you want to try 379 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: to understand is there anything that stands out here? Is 380 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: there anything at the scene that is going to give 381 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: me pause to think this is something as there was 382 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: an old friends of pathologist that used to tell me 383 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: in the morgue, he says, I want to know if 384 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: there was anything to indicate that this death is something 385 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: other than as advertised, is what he would say. And 386 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: so that became kind of a key feature in my 387 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: mind as I'm looking at death, is there anything here 388 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: to indicate that this is something other than has advertised 389 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: by the family, Because the family who in this case 390 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: is going to be the person that discovers them, is 391 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: going to be the person that's setting the tone. 392 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: For the narrative, and that's what got my attention. According 393 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 2: to court documents, Richins and his wife, Corey, were celebrating 394 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: a business accomplishment the night he died. Corey reportedly made 395 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: Eric a my Scowl mule and brought it to him 396 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: in the bedroom. In the meantime, Corey says she went 397 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: to help one of their children and didn't return to 398 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: bed for several hours. It was then she noticed Derek 399 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: was cold to the touch, and she calls nine one 400 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 2: one and is supposedly attempting to give Eric's CPR. According 401 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 2: to the rest affidavit. Though first responders arrived and it 402 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: seemed as though she really hadn't done anything. There was 403 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: apparently amount of blood in his mouth that made them 404 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 2: realize that she's lying. So immediately it's you've got a 405 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: dead thirty nine year old man. There's no bullet wounds, 406 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: there's no knife wounds, there's no other indications on his 407 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 2: body that anything has been done to him. And yet 408 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 2: she claims she performed CPR. There's evidence she didn't. So 409 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 2: they're gonna have to run a drug panel. I'm guessing 410 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: they're gonna have to figure out a toxicology. So when 411 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: they do that, Joe, And this is just because I 412 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: don't know what are they testing for. I mean just 413 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: testing for cocaine pills. I mean, I don't know what 414 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: the test includes. But I'm I make guessing in this 415 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: day and age, there would be a pretty long list 416 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 2: of drugs and things to test for in a person 417 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 2: these days. 418 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are. And let me give you I'm so 419 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: glad you mentioned this about the evidence of blood in 420 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: the mouth. And you make a valid point here regarding 421 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: the presence of it and an absence of it, say, 422 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: for instance, on her because if you're doing mouth to mouth, 423 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: there'll be that transfer of substances out of the mouth. 424 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: I've interviewed people that have had vomitous on their face 425 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: as a result of doing CPR, and I know that's 426 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: really disgusting. But this is body bags. That's what we 427 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: talk about, and that's evidence. It's evidence of something that 428 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: has occurred. But when you begin to think about blood 429 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: in the mouth, I'd be very curious to know what 430 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: his pallor was like. The pallor is a term that 431 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: people use regarding the coloration of the body. And we 432 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: have mentioned this before. Remember I've talked about how people 433 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: that are in congestive failure have almost an eggplant color 434 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: to them, where they'll be purple, and that goes to congestion. 435 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: And what we look for is the level of congestion 436 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: from what they refer to as from the nipple line 437 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: to the top of the head. Well, if that's going on, 438 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: and we suspect that it is some kind of congestive 439 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: failure that's going on, and we know he doesn't have say, 440 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: heart disease or something like that, then things come to mind. 441 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: We begin to think was this and the six yeled 442 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: death or was this a drug death and because many 443 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: drugs that are out there. You mentioned the panel that's 444 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: run and this is referred to as a post mortem panel. 445 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: Was there anything on board? And let me tell you 446 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: the three sources primarily that we draw from from the 447 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: body had autopsy. First off, we draw blood. Most of 448 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: the time that's going to come from the A order, 449 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: which is a large vessel that runs off of the heart. Okay, 450 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: and sometimes we'll have to go for peripheral blood, particularly 451 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: if you've got a real massive trauma case. You might 452 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: have to even know I've had to go into the 453 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: federal artery in the leg in order to draw blood 454 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: because there's been such copious blood loss. Then we're going 455 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: to go and grab urine. People say, how do you 456 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: do that? Well, after you have the body open, you 457 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: can actually go into what's referred to as the roof 458 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: of the bladder and draw directly out of the bladder, 459 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: so you can get a rather robust sample of urine, 460 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: which is pretty good, a great source to look for 461 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: a variety of different types of drugs. And then we 462 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: co and this often just settles people. We go into 463 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: the eye and we draw what's referred to as vitreous fluid, 464 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: which is a viscous kind of fluid that provides form 465 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: to the eyes. The reason our eyes are not flat, 466 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: they're filled with this viscous fluid. It holds onto things 467 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time. You can't necessarily quantify 468 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: the level of drugs that are there, but you can 469 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: kind of qualify it. It's kind of like reading the 470 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: rings on a tree. That's the way I've always compared 471 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: it in my simple mind. It helps me remember that 472 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 1: every now and then, we'll draw bile from gallbladder if 473 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: the gallbladder still exists. Many people have had closet sectomes 474 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: and gallbladder's no longer there. But here's the one thing 475 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: that is really curious about this case, David. The authorities 476 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: have in fact released the fact that they think whatever 477 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: this agent was, and they suspect right now that it 478 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: was fentanyl because it was found in the system, that 479 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: it was ingested. This is not something he smoked, it's 480 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: not something he was injected with. Would you like me 481 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: to tell you how they make that determination? 482 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 2: How would you possibly know the difference this is? 483 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: It's not Again, I talk about friends of pathology can 484 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: be layered and complicated all this stuff, but it's really 485 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: it's really common sense. We take gastric samples. So when 486 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: we're doing our dissection in the body in the morgue, 487 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: what happens is is that when the stomach is examined, 488 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: first off, you don't examine it inside the body cavity. 489 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: You tie it off superior, like at the base of 490 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: the esophagus where it kind of dumps into the top 491 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: part of the stomach. You tie it off there, you 492 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: clip it above the tie off. Then you go inferior 493 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: or below the stomach where it dumps into the small bowel, 494 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: and there's a loop of bowel that comes off there. 495 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: What you go through there and you tie that off. 496 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: All the other connective tissue that is going to hold 497 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: the stomach in place is going to be trimmed away, 498 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: and the stomach comes out like a big sack essentially. 499 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: And this is very important because once you get the 500 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: stomach outside of the body cavity, because if you open 501 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: it up in the body cavity, it'll commingle with any 502 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: kind of residual blood that's come about from the autopsy 503 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing. Place the stomach onto the 504 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: dissecting board and you get a big container. Right, you 505 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: hold one end of the stomach and let gravity do 506 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: the work. You clip one of the ends that has 507 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: been tied off, and the contents of the stomach literally 508 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: pour into these containers. I've seen it done in a 509 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: variety of ways. I've seen people actually dip the contents out, 510 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: but this is the most effective way because you can 511 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: get everything. One of the things that you first do 512 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: is you visualize. It's just the same with any other 513 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: kind of examination. You'll visualize. You're looking for what has 514 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: been ingested. And some food stuffs are very easy to appreciate, 515 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: particularly things that are green and leafy. You can pick 516 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: up on that pretty quickly. You can actually smell when 517 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: you open the stomach. The smell of alcohol, for some reason, 518 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: becomes highly concentrated when you open the stomach. If anybody's 519 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: even had one glass of wine, it'll not get back. 520 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: It's not like someone have you ever like the morning 521 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: after you've been around somebody that has been drinking the 522 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 1: night before and they kind of breathe on you. You can 523 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: get that odor of alcohol. And I know that there's 524 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: a lot of jokes made about that. Imagine that smell 525 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: that you smell coming off a living person and multiply 526 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: that by a factor of two and it'll knock you 527 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: to your knees many times. So you're trying to get 528 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: all of the contents, and so you're going to visualize 529 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: these contents. You'll see autopsy reports that we'll talk about tramas. 530 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: Most famously it's going to be alcohol. You know, there's 531 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: a distinct odor of alcohol, forensic pathologists will say. But 532 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: to the visual aspect, you're looking to see if there 533 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: are any particulate and remnant of drugs that are remaining 534 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: white powdery little dots for instance. Depended upon the type 535 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: of drug it is that it hasn't been fully digested 536 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: in the system yet. Now, if that fails, you take 537 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: a sample of that gastric content. Remember I talked about 538 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: how we dumped it into a container. Well, you take 539 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: a separate tube and you pour that content into the 540 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: tube and that goes to the state crime lab and 541 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: they will run all of the panels that are standard 542 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: now in the world in which we dwell. Nowadays, there 543 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: is a pestilence upon our country and it's fentoyl. It's 544 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: so pervasive it's used as an additive for drugs. Now, 545 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: people will lace things with fentanyl. People have used fentyl, 546 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: which is a narcotic for a long time. You know, 547 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: it's been on the schedule of drugs that have been 548 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: used used by physicians for pain relief and all these 549 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: sorts of things. It's out there. But it's so insidious, Dave, 550 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: that this now is part of a standard forensic drug panel. 551 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: If you're looking to be stealthy in a poisoning, fentanyl 552 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: is not the way you want to go. It's not 553 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: an exotic. It's not something like we've got to send 554 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,959 Speaker 1: this drug test off to Germany to see if they 555 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: can find find something there that we might not be thinking. No, no, no, 556 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: this is they're going to get a hit on this 557 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: and once they determine that it's there, and that's when 558 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: you know you'd ask me early on. That's when you're 559 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: going to Now once you've and I keep saying this, 560 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: once you've qualified it, that means that it is there, 561 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: then you're going to quantify. And in the case of 562 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: Eric Richins, police have decided something here. They've decided not 563 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: only is Eric Richins's death a homicide, but it is 564 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: a homicide via fentyl. 565 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: So how much fentanyl would Eric Richins have ingested, how 566 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: much would it take to kill a person? And what 567 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: does fentanyl do to the body, Joe. 568 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: Amazingly, Fentanyl is one of these drugs that when it 569 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: is it's essentially microdosed from the perspective of how much 570 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: is administered, even from a therapeutic you know, fentyl traditionally 571 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: has been a therapeutic drug, right, It's something that's used 572 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: in medical practice. It's a precursor many times for anesthesia. 573 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. If you most of the time 574 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: when you take a drug, it's measured in milligram, it's right, Dave. 575 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: So if it's measured in milligrams, think about this. Fentanyl 576 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: is administered in micrograms. Okay, So just so you understand, 577 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: one microgram of fentanyl is equivalent to point zero zero 578 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: zero one milligrams of another drug. And when you get 579 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: up into the level of say, for instance, now we're 580 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: talking micrograms, not milligrams. When you start to get up 581 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: into like one hundred and fifty micrograms, you're starting to 582 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: get up into that lethal level. It doesn't take much. 583 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, there's a there's a couple 584 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: of great images that are online. People can appreciate this. 585 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: It is granular, a granular presentation of fentyl adjacent to 586 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: a penny. And when you see this comparison between the two, 587 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,719 Speaker 1: the penny and everyone knows what a penny looks like, 588 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: the penny looks gigantic and just that small doses that's 589 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: being demonstrated there in a physical sense, because it's really 590 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: hard to wrap your brain around these numbers. It looks 591 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: so tiny, but it is so very, very lethal. You 592 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: have to think about what the mechanism is that occurs 593 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: when fentanyl is ingested. You know what's its purpose? Well, 594 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: the purpose with fentanyl being a precursor, for instance, for 595 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: something like anesthesia, something that's going to put you into 596 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: that kind of dream like state. You know, it's going 597 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: to press you down and down and down. Well, if 598 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: you give a person too much of this stuff, it 599 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: automatically goes to work obviously on the brain neurological centers, 600 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: but more specifically, it really compromises deepening. Upon how much 601 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: you have on board, it really compromises your ability to breathe. 602 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: It will send and how many times have we talked 603 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: about this on body backs. With a lot of other drugs, 604 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: particularly heroin, it will send the individual into respiratory distress. 605 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: And can you imagine you're in this kind of dream 606 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: like state and there's no way to kind of climb 607 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: up out of it. But maybe just meant maybe you're 608 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: sensing your inability to breathe. It's like being held beneath 609 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: water and you can't breathe, You can't come up out 610 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: of it, and your body's reacting. You start to convulse. 611 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: Perhaps your brain is screening for oxygen, but you can't 612 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: uptake it at all, and so this is going to 613 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: lead to respiratory failure. In many of these cases, you'll 614 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: see that presentation that we see with heroin many times, 615 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: where the people will turn that kind of eggplant shade 616 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 1: of purple. They'll have the frothy, ademitous cone that's coming 617 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: out of their mouth, and you just know that it's 618 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: a horrible, languishing way to die. It's and this is 619 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: the really kind of you know, scary thing about it 620 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: is that it can be done so very stealthily. And 621 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, in this case in particular, what the police 622 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: are indicating is that this Moscow mule had been laced 623 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: with this stuff, and we don't really have a firm 624 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: figure on the levels that are involved. I think that 625 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: we probably will eventually. But the sad thing is is 626 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: that there are thousands and thousands of these cases, not 627 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: exactly like this, but there are thousands and thousands of 628 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: these cases all across the country where you have people 629 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: that are manufacturing these drugs that are including within the 630 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: drug itself that they're selling, whether it's cocaine or heroin 631 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: or whatever. And the thing about it this is it's 632 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: like putting snake venom in everything that's being sold.