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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nol.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer, Paul Mission

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Speaker 4: Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you are here, and

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Speaker 4: that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: Thank you in advanced fellow conspiracy realists for everyone who

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Speaker 4: reached out to us as individuals or as a show.

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Speaker 4: Henry Kissinger is dead. We may do an episode on Kissinger.

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Speaker 4: I don't know about you, guys, I for one remain

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Speaker 4: astonished by how many people don't know a ton about

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Speaker 4: war criminals activities, me in.

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Speaker 3: One of them. Like we were talking a little bit

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Speaker 3: off Mike off Air, I guess, and I think largely

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Speaker 3: what I know about him is what was in the

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Speaker 3: Oliver Stone Nixon movie and just stuff that I've talked

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Speaker 3: about with you. But I I for one, would love

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Speaker 3: to do a deep dive into him, because he obviously

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Speaker 3: is a very problematic figure, very important figure in terms

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Speaker 3: of moving the tide of history for the worse. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: I want to know more about these these war crimes

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Speaker 3: and his conspiratorial activities and getting us deeper and deeper

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Speaker 3: into Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the real politic with that one was strong.

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Speaker 4: Yes, agreed. And as you guys know, I I have

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Speaker 4: I have seen Kissinger live, which sounds like a weird

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Speaker 4: from some dude from Portland or whatever. New offense Robert,

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Speaker 4: But speaking of our pal, our good friend, Robert Evans.

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Speaker 4: In the meantime, before we get to the Kissinger episode,

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Speaker 4: check out the fantastic Behind the Bastard series on Kissinger,

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Speaker 4: which is out now. In totality, Kissinger is dead, but

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Speaker 4: for how long? That's all right, folks. We're asking about

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Speaker 4: mortality today a bit of a nol. You called it

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Speaker 4: a sister episode to a recent episode we did, Who

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Speaker 4: Wants to Live Forever? Mortality, the ability to stay alive,

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Speaker 4: is the one thing you cannot buy, borrow, or steal

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Speaker 4: your way out of, no matter how much money you have, sorry,

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Speaker 4: mister musk. The history of humanity's most powerful people is also,

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Speaker 4: at heart a history of people who tried and failed,

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Speaker 4: at every point so far to attain immortality to cheat death.

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Speaker 4: Soon that may no longer be the case. These folks

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Speaker 4: may die, and if they have their way, they may return.

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Speaker 4: If this occurs, civilization is woefully unprepared. Here are the facts.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's a sci fi trope that we see

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Speaker 3: all the time about like successful versions of this technology,

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Speaker 3: and it's the kind of pressure sci fi that we

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Speaker 3: might see actually come to fruition, you know, decades removed

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Speaker 3: from the fiction. But the facts indeed are around the

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Speaker 3: idea of mortality and how we really need to understand

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Speaker 3: the concept of life expectancy right in order to kind

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Speaker 3: of wrap our heads around what a lot of this

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Speaker 3: stuff means.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, to understand mortality. And you know, we're talking about

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Speaker 4: this a little bit off air. This is a technology episode,

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Speaker 4: so we're going to breeze through some stuff that you

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Speaker 4: need to know. You may encounter, you may have encountered

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Speaker 4: some of this in previous episodes. We'll keep it very brief.

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Speaker 4: Life expectancy is just the number of years that scientific

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Speaker 4: bodies and institutions expect the average person to live from

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Speaker 4: the moment of birth, from cradle to the grave. Shout

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Speaker 4: out DMX. According to the United Nations, if you are

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Speaker 4: alive in twenty twenty three, as we record this. Globally,

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Speaker 4: the life expectancy is a little bit north of seventy

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Speaker 4: three calendar years, about seventy three and a half or

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Speaker 4: less years. This is a tricky number because it varies

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Speaker 4: so widely from country to country, from region to region.

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Speaker 4: There's also a divide among biological sex, which is of

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Speaker 4: course not the same as gender, and it's.

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Speaker 3: Of course up historically, right, Like I mean, life expectancy

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Speaker 3: in the olden times was much much shorter due to

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Speaker 3: lack of medical technology and understanding and things like diseases

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Speaker 3: that were not able to be mitigated. And so you know,

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Speaker 3: life is good overall, but there are parts of the

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Speaker 3: country where the life expectancy is lower, which is, you know,

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Speaker 3: again due to probably less development and less control over

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Speaker 3: some of these mitigating circumstances.

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Speaker 2: We got all kinds of fun things to thank for that, right,

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Speaker 2: Medical advances changing the way we eat and what we eat,

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Speaker 2: all kinds of good stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this trend toward longer life, as you guys pointed out,

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Speaker 4: is the result of a lot of things that sometimes

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Speaker 4: get ignored. Sanitation was a huge, huge improvement, genetics, play

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Speaker 4: a role, of course. You know, there's a reason that

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Speaker 4: the average height of human beings is a single number.

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Speaker 4: But there are countries like the Philippines and countries like

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Speaker 4: the Netherlands where people are on the far end of

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Speaker 4: either spectrum right with height, and the same thing applies

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Speaker 4: to how long you can expect to live. We have

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Speaker 4: science to thank for the dramatic improvement in human life expectancy.

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Speaker 4: Between twenty twenty sixteen, the average life expectancy increased by

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Speaker 4: five point five years globally, in some of the places

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Speaker 4: with the lowest life expectancies experienced the highest improvements. Again,

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Speaker 4: science science informs good public policy. And just like the

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Speaker 4: earlier example of light switches in DNA modification in a

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Speaker 4: previous episode, there is a problem with these improvements. They

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Speaker 4: sound ostensibly good, yet these same improvements in life expectancy

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Speaker 4: create unintended consequences. Many countries, the majority, i would argue,

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Speaker 4: simply are not prepared for the amount of people who

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Speaker 4: are living longer than their forebearers. These economic social systems

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Speaker 4: that were designed with the assumption that people had died

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Speaker 4: at a certain age, they're just not ready. I mean,

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Speaker 4: many experts predict that the population growth of the world

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Speaker 4: overall is slowing down, but a slow down in growth

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean growth stops. We're going to check the world clock.

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Speaker 4: Shout out to world ometer there are Does anybody want

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Speaker 4: to do the honors here?

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Speaker 3: And this is your baby. You must have this thing

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Speaker 3: like as like a home button on your phone. This

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Speaker 3: is a I look forward to this moment.

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Speaker 4: But I had I had to replace the Kissinger app.

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Speaker 4: Current world population right now is eight billion, seventy six million,

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Speaker 4: two hundred and sixty six thousand, seven hundred and nineteen

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: Three, twenty five. What a weird little number to watch.

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Speaker 3: That last one might keep you busy. Now it's at

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Speaker 3: thirty five. Holy crap. Yeah, we talked about this a

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Speaker 3: good bit in the Life Extension episode. The Forever episode

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Speaker 3: is like, sure, in theory, that sounds cool, but we

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Speaker 3: we don't have resources to sustain the people that are

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Speaker 3: currently living, not to mention mixing in that, you know,

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Speaker 3: increased life expectancy. So I think of a lot of

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Speaker 3: the stuff we're talking about today. It's kind of an

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Speaker 3: interesting alternative in a way. I mean, there is some macabre,

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Speaker 3: kind of black mirror asks stuff about it, but the

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Speaker 3: idea of maybe not actually letting people become continued eternal

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Speaker 3: resource sucks, but in fact be more like virtual versions

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Speaker 3: that you can sort of play with like a Teddy ruckspin.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And just to point out here the Social secus

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Speaker 2: Security program here in the US, when we're thinking about

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Speaker 2: like the pressure that this life expectagancy is putting on

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Speaker 2: these systems, it's insane. You can go to SSA dot

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Speaker 2: gov and just check out how many people are going

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Speaker 2: to get or theoretically will get Social Security benefits over

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Speaker 2: time from like nineteen seventy up until the two thousands

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Speaker 2: and twenty twenties, and it's just like, it's crazy to

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Speaker 2: see the number of human beings that are going to

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Speaker 2: have to take that benefit that everybody pays into, and

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Speaker 2: how if it continues at this rate, there's no way

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Speaker 2: we're going to be able to afford it as a country.

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Speaker 3: Does that mean that the Social Security that the three

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Speaker 3: of us have been paying into there will come a

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Speaker 3: time where that money is just gone and we're no

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Speaker 3: longer going to be able to benefit from it.

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Speaker 4: That time occurred properly in your late twenties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess so cranky about taxes because I mean

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Speaker 3: again not to be like O. I went to Europe

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Speaker 3: and it was perfect. But it's like people that live

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Speaker 3: there in Our citizens pay a lot of taxes, but

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Speaker 3: for their taxes they get stuff. I don't know what

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Speaker 3: I get for mine, other than the privilege of being

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Speaker 3: an American citizen. My roads are. You know, My insurance

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Speaker 3: is terrible. The market whatever insurance for the Obamacare stuff

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Speaker 3: is terrible. It's expensive and you don't really get much

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Speaker 3: for it. It's embarrassing. Man.

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Speaker 4: Well, you're supporting wars and coups across the planet. Well,

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Speaker 4: that's the reason why I think I mentioned this earlier.

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Speaker 4: You know, nobody gets to determine in the United States

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Speaker 4: which portion of their tax payment goes to what sort

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Speaker 4: of program. And to your point, Matt, social Security has

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Speaker 4: been treated as a slush fund by Congress for quite

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Speaker 4: some time. Whoops, it doesn't It doesn't always matter to

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Speaker 4: those folks in the halls of power because they are

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Speaker 4: retired and on the lecture circuit in private industry or

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Speaker 4: and so on. Well after, so with this, like to

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Speaker 4: your point, Matt, there is clearly a an event horizon, right,

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Speaker 4: there is an inflection point at which at which juncture,

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Speaker 4: this stuff becomes unsustainable. So what happens when you add

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Speaker 4: a twist to the equation? What happens when people don't

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Speaker 4: just die but are resurrected in such a way that

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Speaker 4: they still participate in some fashion in the system. We

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Speaker 4: know that there are a couple of ways in which

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Speaker 4: folks can already be brought back from the dead. I think,

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Speaker 4: do we ever do an episode on near death experiences?

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Speaker 3: I believe we probably had to, or at the very

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Speaker 3: least that certainly come up. Well, we you know, we

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Speaker 3: did Divine Intervention, which I think had a lot of

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Speaker 3: crossover with near death experiences. But yeah, no, you're right.

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Speaker 3: Then there's there's kind of two handles to this thing.

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Speaker 3: If that's an expression that I didn't just make up.

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Speaker 3: There is a lot of interesting science around the idea

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Speaker 3: of physically being resurrected or being brought back from the

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Speaker 3: dead like Lazarus, which we're going to get in. And

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Speaker 3: there's the other handle, which is the tech side, which

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Speaker 3: we're going to get to as well. But let's talk

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Speaker 3: about the what it means to die and like what

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Speaker 3: that looks like physiologically, and how that can actually vary

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Speaker 3: more than people might think.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there are three. There are three broad categories of death,

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Speaker 4: one of which is hilarious. There's clinical death. That's where

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Speaker 4: you're breathing and your blood flows stop. And in that case,

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Speaker 4: this may be the experience of some of us listening

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Speaker 4: this evening, fellow conspiracy realists. Clinical death is something people

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Speaker 4: can come back from.

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Speaker 3: You hear that they were critically dead, you know, and

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Speaker 3: then boom, it's.

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Speaker 4: All yeah, and there's a window. There's there's a quick window,

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Speaker 4: the heart stops, there's some sort of cardiac arrest. You

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Speaker 4: have about four minutes from cardiac arrest to the development

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Speaker 4: of serious brain damage. And there are, of course multiple

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Speaker 4: exceptions to this, multiple miraculous stories, Lazarus syndrome, Lazarus phenomenon.

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Speaker 4: But clinical death is where innervention techniques like CPR or

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Speaker 4: the paddles clear, that's where that stuff comes into play.

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Speaker 4: It's imperfect, but it does save lives. And then there's

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Speaker 4: the funny one. Legally dead. Have you guys ever you

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Speaker 4: guys have heard illegally dead?

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Speaker 3: Is that like being legally blonde?

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Speaker 4: It's like peak bureaucracy. Yeah, you can be legally dead

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Speaker 4: and biologically alive. And there's a cool article if you

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Speaker 4: want to learn more about that from our old friends

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Speaker 4: at the Straight Dope, what happens when someone who is

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Speaker 4: legally dead shows up alive awkward, awkward, and so of

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Speaker 4: course the big one, the quote unquote real one is

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Speaker 4: biological death. That is brain death. That is where brain

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Speaker 4: activity ceases and you can't turn the machine back on.

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Speaker 3: It's funny your point about the paddles and this like

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Speaker 3: you know er like TV doctor kind of moment where

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Speaker 3: like we've lost them doctor or you know or whatever,

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Speaker 3: or it always just funny to me in other shows

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Speaker 3: where some like literal civilian will just check their pulse

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Speaker 3: and be like they're dead. It's like no, that's why

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Speaker 3: you need someone to call it and have multiple factors

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Speaker 3: and it has to be recorded. Like I don't know

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Speaker 3: if any of you have experienced being in the room

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Speaker 3: with someone who has died. But it's not easy. It's

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Speaker 3: not simple when they turn the machine off. It's not

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Speaker 3: just click and they're gone. It's very nuanced and you

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Speaker 3: wouldn't really know that unless you experienced it er or

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Speaker 3: heard from someone who had it.

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Speaker 2: Does feel like at this point you should have something

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Speaker 2: connected to a person, like some mobile device maybe that

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Speaker 2: you bring into a room where someone is being has

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Speaker 2: been declared dead, and you check for brain any brain activity.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean, because I do feel like

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Speaker 2: there are instances where we know, actually we know that

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Speaker 2: there are instances where someone has come back well after

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Speaker 2: they should have been able to ooh.

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Speaker 4: I will add not to get too into deep water here,

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Speaker 4: but just an observation. If you are in that tragic

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Speaker 4: situation where you're in the room and you hear the

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Speaker 4: beep beep beep, go to the flatline, I think it's

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Speaker 4: I think it's very important to still talk to them,

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Speaker 4: especially if there's someone who matters to you. Just give

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Speaker 4: them some things, some kind of support if you can.

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Speaker 4: But again, these are the three main form these three

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Speaker 4: main definitions of death. How long will that be the case?

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Speaker 4: How long will humanity be able to cling to its

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Speaker 4: current understandings and definitions of death? Again, it's the definitions,

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Speaker 4: it's the nomenclature that gets you. And as we'll see,

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Speaker 4: technology may change the entirety of the equation. Here's where

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Speaker 4: it gets crazy this stuff. Civilization's current understanding of how

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Speaker 4: death is defined will almost certainly not be sustainable. Just

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Speaker 4: like the Social Security program. It's going to need some

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Speaker 4: real rethinking. For now, brain death is still the final

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Speaker 4: actual death. We can go to folks like Sam Parnia

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Speaker 4: who tells us that proves to us that death right

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Speaker 4: now is a lot less like a light switch going

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Speaker 4: on and off, and a lot more like a spectrum.

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Speaker 2: Or a sliding switch, you know, one of those really

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Speaker 2: fancy ones.

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Speaker 4: Right, a dimmer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, we came across this Lazarus effect that

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Speaker 2: I think we've mentioned before, but it's pretty crazy, the

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Speaker 2: concept that somebody could spontaneously have their heart begin beating

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Speaker 2: again after they are declared clinically dead but not brain

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Speaker 2: dead necessarily. It's really There was a study ben that

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Speaker 2: you found that was fascinating. They they looked at ten

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Speaker 2: thousand articles and inside those they found thirty eight cases

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Speaker 2: that appeared to have a person be declared dead. No

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Speaker 2: other stuff was like performed on them, and they came back.

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Speaker 3: And this of course is a reference to Lazarus, you know,

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Speaker 3: the biblical figure. And you know there's there's multiple ways

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Speaker 3: of interpreting his story. The idea of like did Jesus

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Speaker 3: bring him back with magical Jesus powers or was there

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Speaker 3: some just medical phenomenon that caused this to happen, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not being flippant. I'm just saying that there

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Speaker 3: are multiple ways of interpreting various things that happened in

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Speaker 3: the Bible. I think I talk about on a video

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Speaker 3: recently the idea of the parting of the Red Sea.

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Speaker 3: You know, in the Bible, it's attributed to divine intervention,

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Speaker 3: but a lot of you know, scientific research after the

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Speaker 3: fact attributes it more to a weather event, you know,

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Speaker 3: things like that. So it's just interesting.

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Speaker 2: Well, and in that study there's a there's basically an

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Speaker 2: attempt to figure out if this is actually some kind

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Speaker 2: of special resurrection that has occurred, right, because if that,

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Speaker 2: if it was that, then you would have to apply

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Speaker 2: absolutely no CPR to that person, no medical interventions whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: That person is dead and all of a sudden their

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Speaker 2: heart starts starts beating again, like spontaneous human resurrection or whatever.

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Speaker 3: But in better than combustion.

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Speaker 2: I would say, oh yeah, But in the thirty eight cases,

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Speaker 2: they found that, oh no, there was like CPR given

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Speaker 2: to these individuals, there was maybe even a defibrillator used

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Speaker 2: or something like that. Then everything stopped. They didn't do

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Speaker 2: any more interventions, and then after whatever period of time

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Speaker 2: they came back. So I like, could it have been

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Speaker 2: the CPR earlier that actually got the heart like ready

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Speaker 2: to go again? It seems unlikely to me, but maybe

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Speaker 2: that's the case.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is all what leads that guy would

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Speaker 4: mention Sam Parnia, critical care physician and director of resuscitation

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Speaker 4: Research at Stony Brooks University School of Medicine over in

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Speaker 4: New York. Is what all led Doc Parnia to say,

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Speaker 4: when you are freshly dead, your brain isn't necessarily irreversibly,

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Speaker 4: irrefutably damaged. Yet you have to both die and have

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Speaker 4: your brain die, have brain death to really be dead.

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Speaker 4: It reminded me of our pale Rob's movie Princess Bride.

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Speaker 4: You remember that scene, Perhaps guys is only mostly dead dead?

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Speaker 3: What a great movie. I'm sorry, I'm still you mentioned that.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, what, Oh my god, we are sort of

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Speaker 3: acquainted with Rob Reiner at this point, and what a

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Speaker 3: varied and spectacular career and a cool dude. Sorry, I'm

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Speaker 3: done fanboying, but no, you're absolutely right, Ben, And like,

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Speaker 3: can we talk a little bit about what like like

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Speaker 3: how can these different parts sort of be not in sync, right,

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Speaker 3: like these systems they maybe it's like the idea. I

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Speaker 3: don't know, maybe this is like maybe too reductive, but

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Speaker 3: like a chicken with his head cut off, you know,

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Speaker 3: running around still, that's maybe like a simplistic version of

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Speaker 3: what happens to us when we die.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting to bring that up, because you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 4: It is tasty and satisfying to think of things happening

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Speaker 4: at a hole, but very good and very evil and

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Speaker 4: very beautiful and very terrible things tend to happen piece

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Speaker 4: by piece, right, So to your point about chickens with

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Speaker 4: their heads cut off, there was a study in twenty

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Speaker 4: twelve that found that after human brain death, muscle stem

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Speaker 4: cells can remain viable for up to seventeen days. So

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Speaker 4: they just didn't get the word that the jig was up, right,

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Speaker 4: they were still functioning.

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Speaker 2: As it sounds like we need to be harvest in

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Speaker 2: those babies.

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Speaker 3: Agreed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, maybe we chose the wrong business with podcasting.

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Speaker 4: Surely there's no ethical problem with that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you're if you're an organ donor,

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Speaker 2: then perhaps you could be a muscle stem cell donor

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Speaker 2: in the same way, because I imagine those could be

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Speaker 2: extremely helpful in a lot of cases.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, great, that's a great point, I mean. And also

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Speaker 4: it brings us to this realization. Just as human beings

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Speaker 4: still struggle to understand the nature of the human mind,

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Speaker 4: they still have a lot to learn about the nature

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Speaker 4: of death. It is not as sudden nor perhaps as

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Speaker 4: final as it seemed throughout most of history. So we've

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Speaker 4: got the basics. We know that everybody, every human being

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Speaker 4: at this point, except arguably Henrietta Lax has died. Research

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Speaker 4: ongoing and recent teaches us death is not the matter

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Speaker 4: of flipping or flipping off a switch. Innovations in medicine

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Speaker 4: again ongoing, mean that doctors and medical providers can snatch

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Speaker 4: more and more people back from the brink. But still,

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Speaker 4: in each case so far, it is a matter of

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Speaker 4: acting quickly and being very, very fortunate. There is a

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Speaker 4: best and a worst of every profession right or every

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Speaker 4: skill set. Even the world's best CPR expert, who is

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Speaker 4: doubtlessly alive now, even the world's best CPR expert is

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Speaker 4: not going to be one hundred percent successful at bringing

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Speaker 4: people back the time. Windows are tricky, you know, I

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Speaker 4: guess I don't want to sound ghoulish, of course, but

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Speaker 4: I think we were all aware. You can't dig up

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Speaker 4: the grave of someone who died in eighteen seventy six

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Speaker 4: and just like pump their chest until they, you know,

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Speaker 4: cough and say good looking out, thanks bro.

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Speaker 2: No, don't. I don't think it works like that.

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Speaker 4: And this is the crux of the questions. It's the

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Speaker 4: one we brought up in the past. I think it's

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Speaker 4: one that continues to haunt a lot of us this evening.

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Speaker 4: We'll we're being cecuitous here, but what is the difference

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Speaker 4: between a simulation and the so called real?

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Speaker 3: McCoy?

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Speaker 4: This is crazy. For thousands of years, the idea of

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Speaker 4: the an impression of someone versus an actual someone. It

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Speaker 4: was a matter of philosophy, then it was a matter

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Speaker 4: of folklore, then it was a matter of science fiction.

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Speaker 4: And now we're at what I think we can call

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Speaker 4: a metaphysical Turing test. Arguably, the Turing test itself is metaphysical.

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Speaker 4: Humanity isn't close to recreating a biological person who previously died,

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Speaker 4: but civilization may one day soon be able to recreate,

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Speaker 4: recreate pieces of them. And this has some folks very

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Speaker 4: excited This has other folks seriously worried. Honestly, this has

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Speaker 4: some companies making a lot of money. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: how would you do it? Like this is the technology part.

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Speaker 4: I guess we should get cloning out of the way.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize this. You guys know, there was that

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Speaker 4: big right wing election in Argentina recently. The guy who

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Speaker 4: looks like someone said, we have wolverine at home. We

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Speaker 4: heard about this, No, I think, so, oh gosh, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's not great. It's not great for the people of Argentina.

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Speaker 4: I bring this guy up because this new president of

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Speaker 4: Argentina is low key famous for cloning his dogs. He

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Speaker 4: thinks he's bringing him back from the dead.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And yeah. And then we're going to get into the

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Speaker 3: idea of like cloning versus simulation versus you know, actually

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Speaker 3: living this whole ship of thesis kind of argument. But

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Speaker 3: maybe we take a break real quick and then do

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Speaker 3: those things perfect. We're back.

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Speaker 4: Let's get this part out of the way. It's on

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Speaker 4: a lot of people's minds cyclically, cloning. Cloning is real.

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Speaker 4: The guy who is currently president of Architita has cloned

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Speaker 4: his dogs, uh and gave them the same name. I

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Speaker 4: think the one of the most famous mainstream examples of

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Speaker 4: cloning is a sheep.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, dolly, Oh yeah, uh, let's get in a dolly.

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Speaker 2: But guys, I didn't realize that cloning pets. I think

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Speaker 2: we talked about this one time, but cloning your pets

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Speaker 2: is a service. That's how I did.

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Speaker 3: We talked about it because it was like there was

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Speaker 3: a Instagram influencer I believe who is doing it a

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Speaker 3: bunch and it was like they commented on how their

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Speaker 3: personalities weren't the same, which which is the.

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Speaker 5: Part of it that always gives me pause where it's

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Speaker 5: like it gives you pause, but no, I mean like

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Speaker 5: if you're gonna if you will say, if we were

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Speaker 5: to you know, a dog is no shade on dogs,

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Speaker 5: but they don't exactly have the same ability.

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Speaker 3: We don't have the same ability to interpret whether like

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Speaker 3: their memories or their brains are exactly the same. Like

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Speaker 3: with with a person, you clone them at a certain age,

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Speaker 3: you'd think it would be like a would it be

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Speaker 3: a one to one copy of their brain and everything

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Speaker 3: that contained within it? Is that even possible? Is that

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Speaker 3: silly goofy stuff?

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Speaker 2: It's just a genetic copy, right, that's the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: The thing they offer, like they make a genetic profile

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Speaker 2: of your dog and they clone the DNA essentially and make.

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Speaker 3: That different from just really good selective breeding. You know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because when cloning was mainstream, there were a lot

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Speaker 4: of people who were saying, the first human clone is

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Speaker 4: surely just a few ways, just a few years away.

435
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 3: Excuse me.

436
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 4: There have been claims unfounded about successful cloning of human beings,

437
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 4: the most famous being from Bridget Bauslyer, who has not

438
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 4: been able to prove this, not provide evidence. Also, there

439
00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 4: is there's a Bordheys level library of law against cloning

440
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: human beings. So why do we say that, let's get

441
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: this out of the way, let's get to your question. No,

442
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 4: without sounding we don't want to sound too dismissive, but

443
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 4: cloning is very much not the same as bringing back

444
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 4: that person or that pet you have anthropomorphized and missed.

445
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 4: It's not resurrecting the dead. It's the best way you

446
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 4: think about it is computers, right as analogy, right, The

447
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 4: best way to learn things is also analogy. So it's

448
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 4: like we're creating a very similar piece of hardware. To

449
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 4: your point, Matt, it's a genetic copy and it hopefully

450
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 4: has the same basic hardware kind of operating system. Right,

451
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 4: you clone a human being and it has identical DNA

452
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 4: to someone who's passed on, which means that all things

453
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 4: being equal, the brain will be the same or very similar, hopefully,

454
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 4: but you will have no chance and no real way

455
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 4: of recreating the software, which I would posit in this

456
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 4: example is the human mind. And that's because every single

457
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 4: human mind is a cavalcade of cumulative yes and no

458
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 4: stored interactions with the environment and all these neurotic associations

459
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 4: that build off each other at every single point of existence.

460
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 4: The math is beyond human beings, right, The math is

461
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 4: beyond human created computers at this point. And there's also

462
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 4: a deep ethical problem. Even if you could somehow store

463
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 4: that software that made the you know, the match or

464
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 4: the null or the Paul mission control or what have you,

465
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 4: and you could copy that software into the brain of

466
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 4: this clone, would it be the same person or would

467
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 4: we have simply overwritten what could have been its own

468
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 4: independent human mind. I mean, in that case, we get

469
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 4: again technology of focal or so related. Are we in

470
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 4: that case using technology to do what previous generations would

471
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 4: have called possession like demonic or angelic or ghostly. It's crazy,

472
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 4: it's crazy. The reason we're, by the way, throwing to

473
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 4: some ideas of folklo or magic is because there's a

474
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: term that we didn't use in some of our previous episodes.

475
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 4: I am torn, you, guys. I don't know whether it's

476
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 4: clickbaity or poetic or super insightful or all three. Have

477
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 4: you heard the phrase digital necromancy, Matt?

478
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 3: I know this is a particular area of fascination for you.

479
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: Just there's so many, so much kind of bleeding edge

480
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: tech that you could kind of categorize under this netting.

481
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a weird way, I lump it in with

482
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: funeral services. I think the other term is like grief tech,

483
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: grief tech, and it's you know, it's astonishing, and I

484
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: can't decide if it's something I would want to experience

485
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: or not, though I can see I can understand that

486
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who would want to

487
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: partake in the tech that we're about to describe.

488
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a it's an interesting bit of background.

489
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 4: In twenty sixteen, a guy named James Vlajos did something amazing, tragic,

490
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 4: frightening all the same time, he learned his father was

491
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 4: dying from terminal lung cancer. And when he learned this

492
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 4: he took action. He recorded and collected absolutely everything he

493
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 4: could about his father's life story. Literally anything he could remember,

494
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 4: anything he could get his hands on, he transcribed it.

495
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 4: This resulted in a collection of data that if you

496
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: printed it out, would be about two hundred single space pages,

497
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 4: which sounds like a lot, but not really if you

498
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 4: think of what large language models today anyway, use this

499
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: stuff to create what he calls.

500
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 3: The dad Bot.

501
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 4: The dad Bot functioned as a memorial, a very old

502
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 4: human tendency, right, we want to remember, we want to

503
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 4: have some way to commune with.

504
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: Those who have passed.

505
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 4: So he got stuff like text, messages, audio images, video.

506
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 4: He created an interactive experience such that after his father

507
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 4: tragically passed on, he could interact with dad Bot and

508
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 4: it would bring to him memories and stories that he

509
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 4: experienced with his father, or that his father experienced. And

510
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 4: he is always, to his credit, been very clear he

511
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: does not think he brought his father back from the dead.

512
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 4: He does not think he recovered or recreated a human mind,

513
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,239
Speaker 4: but instead he says this brought him comfort enclosure. It

514
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 4: was a way for him him to remember his old man,

515
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: and this inspired him to launch a company which is

516
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 4: around now called Hereafter AI. You can upload your memories

517
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 4: that are turned into what I believe they call a

518
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 4: life story avatar and you can communicate with this, uh

519
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: this avatar. Again, of course, no one is saying that

520
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 4: this is bringing back the dead.

521
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: This is a.

522
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 4: This is another way of you know, building a memorial.

523
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: It's a it's a taj mahal, it's a pyramid, it's

524
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 4: a it's a shrine.

525
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: It is, but but it's it's a shrine you can

526
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: consult with. So if you imagine all of the pieces

527
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: of paper that were put in to create that version

528
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: of his father, right, if you're only a lot of.

529
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: Web scraping too, write like, wouldn't it be just like

530
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 3: a lot of like social media culling and all this

531
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: kind of stuff and basically creating a profile, Right.

532
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all that stuff. If you imagine that those

533
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: things right somewhere stored and you can consult with them.

534
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: If you are going through something in your life that's

535
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: pretty difficult, but you wish you could have had your

536
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: father's advice, right, or you could consult with him on

537
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: what would you do in this situation? You can now

538
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: because this thing has been created, you can now pose

539
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: that question and get a response, rather than combing through

540
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: all of those things trying to find the one video

541
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: where your dad mentioned something about that or the one

542
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: letter he sent to you one time when you dealt

543
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: with a slightly similar situation. I think it's tremendously probably

544
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: helpful and enriching to be able to have.

545
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: That, Which is interesting because when we had previously talked

546
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 4: about this, and do you think we have an episode

547
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 4: about grief tech entirely on the way. When your previously

548
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 4: thought about this, one of the things walked away with

549
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: was the idea that it might just be further distancing

550
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 4: or make some and you know, further aware of the

551
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 4: death in a visceral way. But I agree with you,

552
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: the implications are fascinating. We have to be very we

553
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 4: have to take care not to go into a world

554
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 4: of dystopian catastrophization, and we got to avoid unearned optimism.

555
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 4: We also have to say, to your point, Matt, the

556
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 4: fidelity of those programs, the fidelity of that technology is increasing,

557
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: thinks in great part to the rise of large language

558
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 4: models and generative AI. Don't worry, folks, we get an

559
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: open ai Q star episode on the way soon.

560
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: These like this it.

561
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 4: Also happens on the heels of deep fake technology, which

562
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 4: in some ways is very as similar because again, we're

563
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 4: creating these monuments, We're creating these icons, you know, holographic

564
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 4: re animations of Michael Jackson or Bruce Lee or Tupac Shakur.

565
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: And there's a Henry Kissinger. Can't wait for that one

566
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: to make its debut at Coachella.

567
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 4: I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure he's going to be a

568
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 4: headliner act for Coachella. Actually, if you're listening Coachella, do

569
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 4: it us so you know. It reminds me too, like

570
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 4: we have. We have celebrities who made posthumous appearances in film.

571
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 4: And one of the big debates right now or recently

572
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 4: in the world of film production came about from the

573
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 4: idea of AI likenesses being used. We actually talked about

574
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 4: this off air, even in the world of podcast. It

575
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 4: was the use of these visual representations that led to

576
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 4: like the first the first publishing of terms like digital necromancy.

577
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 4: And at first it was just for famous people, right,

578
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 4: it was just for famous people, or in the case

579
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 4: of the earlier AI programs mentioned hereafter, it was like

580
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 4: the idea of very brilliant early adopters, people who could

581
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 4: build their own cars right in comparison, But now that

582
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 4: that technology is democratized, more and more non famous people

583
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 4: can use this method to create something that somehow evokes

584
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 4: their memories of a lost loved one. And to your point, Noel,

585
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 4: this is with the rise of social media, this is

586
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: something that vastly increases the amount of data that can

587
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 4: be collected.

588
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 3: For sure. And it makes me think of something that

589
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 3: I think I brought up on the Live Forever episode,

590
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: a really really striking and eerie episode of Black Mirror

591
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: called Be Right Back starring dom Hall Gleeson that really

592
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: dramatizes a technology exactly like this, but takes it to

593
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 3: the next level where it starts as a chatbot kind

594
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 3: of situation where there's this main character loses a loved

595
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 3: one and the chatbot service scrapes their social media stuff

596
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 3: and it shows you all the stuff that they're doing

597
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 3: and pictures and all this stuff, and then you know

598
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: she's able to communicate with her loved ones through an

599
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: app on the phone. But then there comes this beta

600
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: version of this new offering that allows her to basically

601
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 3: create a living android avatar of her deceased husband, who

602
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: is then imbued with all of this stuff from the chatbot,

603
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: but can also like you know, sleep with her and stuff.

604
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 3: And then all of these problems start to reveal themselves

605
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: when you're not just chatting with like a faceless thing.

606
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 3: How oh wait, what happened to all the slight negative

607
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: parts of your personality that, while sure negative, are what

608
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: make us human, getting a little grumpy every now and

609
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: then being affected by normal human failings and foibles and stuff.

610
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: You take that away, it starts to feel really weird

611
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 3: and uncanny Valley, and I.

612
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 4: Think that's a good point. Yeah, because there's also so

613
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 4: you know, there's also the question of how much data

614
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 4: is collected? Right, the social media being a sort of idealized, right,

615
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 4: idealized optimistic version or a commercial for a person, that's

616
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 4: what social media usually is in the dopamine casino. But

617
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 4: the then do you collect private correspondence that kind of stuff?

618
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's okay, let's talk about how do you

619
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: actually get the data to create something like this? According

620
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 2: to deep brain AI's re memory that's ore semi colon memory.

621
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: It takes seven hours of interview and filming and like

622
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: audio recording in order to create an AI version of

623
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: a loved one. So in this case, it's a specialized

624
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: You go into an office before you pass away, you

625
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: get filmed and recorded for seven hours. Then that data

626
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: and that's all. That's all the data. That data gets

627
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: used to create this version, this generative version of you.

628
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 3: But what if you don't know about this until after

629
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: loved one's past, are you like out of luck? At least? Yeah?

630
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: For this service?

631
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: Okay, for that one, it's over because it's basically a

632
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: memorial service. So the thing they offer is like as

633
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: part of a funeral or memorial service, you go to

634
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: this huge it's a small room, but it's got a

635
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: huge screen, I think a four hundred inch screen that

636
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: has a life size version of your loved one that

637
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: previously went in and got captured. Then you hang out

638
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: in that space the way you would at a memorial,

639
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: but the persons sitting there just patiently and you can

640
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: interact with them.

641
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: I don't think I like that.

642
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,479
Speaker 2: I think it's weird too, But again, like.

643
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 3: Maybe for somebody it's great. No, maybe to Ben's point,

644
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 3: I think maybe we've gotten this part, but this does

645
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: offer a cer potentially offer an element of closure. Yeah

646
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: that maybe would be otherwise unattainable. But I also think,

647
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, it feels very like are we

648
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 3: built for this? Like, I don't know, man, I don't know.

649
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 2: Think about this way. It offers that moment to speak

650
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: with him for the last time, right, which is often

651
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: one of the things that is that we yearn for

652
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: when we lose somewhat, just just that last moment you

653
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: want with him, to have some closure or what would

654
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: seem like closure.

655
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: Did you guys watch The Righteous Gemstones?

656
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah?

657
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, with the Hologrond, there's a plot point where the

658
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 6: deceased mother, who was always the most magnanimous and loving

659
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 6: and just engendered the most kindness for their brand.

660
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 3: I believe one of the sons, the shitty son, the

661
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: mean one played by dam McBride, comes with the idea

662
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 3: of let's tupac her and oh no, I think it's

663
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: actually big baby Billy. It's his idea and they do it,

664
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: and the John Goodman character, the father, they present it

665
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 3: to him and he's like, this is an abomination from hell.

666
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: You know, and he's just absolutely offended and just it's

667
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: not closure at all. It's ripping him apart to see

668
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: this sanitized facsimile of this person.

669
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 4: It also doesn't help that baby Billy buys a refurbished hologram.

670
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: That's right, it starts to glitch out and stuff.

671
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 2: You're right, dude, But dude, that's that's really awesome. I

672
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: actually haven't seen that one yet. That's been.

673
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 3: It's the most recent one.

674
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I just need to finish it. But the

675
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: the other thing that they offer you, guys, is exactly

676
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: what that Black Mirror initially offered. It's a video messaging

677
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: service with that past love one where you can text

678
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: them essentially or maybe even FaceTime them and just hang

679
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: out with them in that way. So it does feel

680
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: like we're really close to that thing, and in that case,

681
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: it only takes seven hours to make it happen.

682
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 4: So think about how much stuff you have recorded and posted, folks, like,

683
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 4: is this is this generating a new version or an

684
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 4: echo of you might be more appropriate.

685
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the other company that's doing it, Somnium Space.

686
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 2: Rather then taking your social media and all that other stuff,

687
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 2: they put you in their VR set and they track

688
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: you like it's all about tracking you physically in what

689
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: you're doing and your voice when you're speaking, and that's

690
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: how they make the version of you. I guess they

691
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: do use all the other data too, but they actually, Man,

692
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 2: there's quotes. We'll do it, I guess when we do

693
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: a deep dive into this grief tech. But there is

694
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 2: so much data that VR can track on you. The

695
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 2: creator of that, well, in your physical body, what's happening,

696
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 2: your movements, your micro things, the way your eyes move.

697
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: And he's saying it's like three hundred times more data

698
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: than they get in a cell phone when you're just

699
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 2: a cell phone user. And we already know how much

700
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: freaking stuff.

701
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: They mean for that that really granular capturing of of

702
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 3: like pulses and things like that, the haptics. So it's

703
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: not that it's another name for it. Sorry, Matt, I'll

704
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 3: think of it, but carried Okay.

705
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: It's just it's so crazy to me that that's the

706
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 2: concept that this Somnium Space company with their Live Forever

707
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: program is doing because they want you. They want to

708
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: eventually put you in a suit like a full haptic

709
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 2: feedback suit and then have you pay like fifty bucks

710
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: a year to create your thing, your version right, so

711
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: that your loved ones can have access to you.

712
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 4: Later, and then you make money on the back end,

713
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 4: ghoulishly with having the survivors wear a haptic suit so

714
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 4: they can feel you hug them.

715
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly.

716
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 3: I think that's the and that's what happens in the show.

717
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 3: And inevitably it gets too weird for the character and she,

718
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: you know, no spoiler alert, okay, whatever, just tries to

719
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 3: destroy it, you know, I mean, because it's just like

720
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: too much, man, And it gets to a point where

721
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 3: she's like feels guilty for having created this thing that

722
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 3: doesn't understand what it is. You know. It has a

723
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 3: lot of the Haley Joel Osmond and Ai the film

724
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 3: kind of vibes. It's very eerie and it's yeah.

725
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, and at its core again not just sound repetitive.

726
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: It does sound like another iteration of the typical human

727
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 4: griefing practice, which is a deep and primal motivating factor

728
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 4: to make those keepsakes, you know, those memorials, those taj mahals,

729
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 4: those shrines such that you can remember those who have

730
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: passed on. There is one important twist and this is

731
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 4: something that is on the way. This is the next

732
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 4: step occurring, the next step occurring in step concurrently, why

733
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 4: not speaking of redundancy? It's the human brain mapping technology

734
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 4: now is going absolutely bonkers. It's nuts. This takes us

735
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 4: to a hypothetical edge of the map. Here be ghost

736
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 4: here be spiders, here be monsters.

737
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: What if soon.

738
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 4: Someone can completely map the activity of a human brain,

739
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: same way you're talking about Matt with mapping the physical activity,

740
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 4: this removes the middleman of transmitted thoughts. So transmitted thoughts

741
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 4: would be social media posts, personal correspondence, statement stories, recorded audio.

742
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 4: What if you could get that straight from the source.

743
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 4: What if you could add that massive library of snapshots

744
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 4: of brain activity to this individual's data, fingerprint, to their

745
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 4: digital soul. And how close does that get us to

746
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 4: a reproduction of how that individual functioned while alive? I propose,

747
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 4: if it's all right, we take a pause for a

748
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 4: word from our sponsor, and let these things simmer in

749
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 4: our newly crafted cauldron of science.

750
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 3: And we have returned.

751
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 4: Okay, if all this is true and a lot of

752
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 4: this is on the way, some version of this thing

753
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 4: does exist, Is it overrated? Is it over promising at

754
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 4: this point. A lot of it is because maybe the

755
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 4: way that customers perceive it, maybe the way companies are

756
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 4: attempting to make profit off it. Indeed, maybe it's just

757
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 4: the financial motivation, right, because this is not a public

758
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 4: service at this point.

759
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 3: Well, early iterations of most tech are often over promise

760
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 3: and under delivering flags Remember the power glove, like the

761
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 3: Nintendo power glove.

762
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 4: Do you remember Virtua Boy's exactly promise.

763
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 3: A million of the power glove was like made that

764
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 3: movie The Wizard where there's a character who demonstrates the

765
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 3: power glove and it's just like he's like a magical

766
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 3: being of video gaming. And then he had a rich

767
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 3: neighbor who had one. It was garbage. It didn't do anything.

768
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 3: He couldn't make it hardly function. But I think that's

769
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: very common with you have this technology, they have to

770
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: package it up and figure out how to sell it

771
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 3: before it's actually any good.

772
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 4: And to the point about you know, humans not being

773
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: ready for a lot of the technology they create as

774
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 4: great artificers. Filo Farnsworth, the guy who invented the television,

775
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 4: came up with the idea when he was fourteen plowing

776
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 4: a field and humanity is still not ready for television.

777
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 4: I'm just being honest here.

778
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: Psychologically, yeah, it's it's like, yeah, it is having because

779
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: you could even say that the Internet is almost an

780
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: extension of television. The idea of like having too much information,

781
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 3: too much access to information, just beamed directly into our noodles.

782
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: I see you scratching for a you got a thought.

783
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm just trying to imagine what's what is

784
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 2: the Internet's version of interlacing right when like Farnsworth is

785
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: coming up with those things and being inspired, like is

786
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: it virtual reality? That's what everybody wants you to think,

787
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 2: But I don't know. There's a study in Nature from

788
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 2: twenty twenty and it talks about how it takes less

789
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 2: than five minutes of tracking body motions within VR to

790
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: identify someone with ninety five percent accuracy out of a

791
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: group of five hundred people. So I'm just imagining again,

792
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: get using getting all of that data when using virtual reality,

793
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: that you can be identified in virtual reality as the

794
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 2: human being person. I'm not sure how this relates, but

795
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: it somehow in there goes to identity right when we're

796
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: using this kind of stuff more. I don't know why

797
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: I'm even talking about this, guys. I was trying to

798
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: connect it back to the things I think I failed.

799
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,959
Speaker 4: Now it makes sense because there's I mean, it goes

800
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 4: to so many different directions, you know, like the first off,

801
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 4: the idea that privacy is a fad and increasingly a

802
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 4: rarefied resource of the halves of the world. But then

803
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 4: further it goes to I think mat to if I'm

804
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 4: picking up what you're putting down, the point of identity

805
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: is that there is a unique sort of genes aqua

806
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 4: about an individual mind such that the fidelity right right

807
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 4: exactly as some says, like the further we can reproduce

808
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 4: that accurately or the further uh, someone can understand that,

809
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 4: then the closer and closer the digital version will be

810
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 4: to the real McCoy.

811
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 3: But I think that's the thing though we don't understand that,

812
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 3: and I don't know if we even can, because I

813
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 3: mean that Jenna sa Kwa you're talking about kind of

814
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 3: is the soul, is the unique umami of the individual

815
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: that a copy will never perhaps they will be able

816
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 3: to capture. I don't know. Again, I don't know. This

817
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 3: is all mind mind boggling stuff, But I just feel

818
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 3: like at the end of the day, all of this

819
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: stuff really is more simulation than anything, you know, like

820
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 3: because it's just scraping the stuff that you put out there.

821
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: Even in an interview, man, you're going to be guarded.

822
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: You're not going to be given the full version of yourself.

823
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 3: You're not gonna be given at warts at all. You know,

824
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 3: all that is subconscious and buried within us, and we

825
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 3: don't know how to access that, like outside of just

826
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 3: the person.

827
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 4: And you know, thinking at the risk of verging into philosophy,

828
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 4: I would say, I don't have this in notes, but

829
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 4: of one of the points I would I would say

830
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 4: here is that the issue is if you copy something

831
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 4: in general, you are attempting to copy something that has

832
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 4: been completed. The human mind, for every living individual, is

833
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 4: a work in progress, whether that is evolving toward a

834
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 4: greater thing, or whether that is encountering the ravages of

835
00:49:55,080 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 4: time such as dementia, Alzheimer's, et cetera. So then maybe

836
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 4: the problem is that you're not copying the finished product.

837
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 4: You're copying the You're copying the iteration. At age you know,

838
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 4: forty or the age fifteen, when the brain is not

839
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 4: yet fully developed, it's a problem with cloning again, just

840
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 4: in a by an order of magnitude more difficult. If

841
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 4: we got all this stuff together and everything worked, could

842
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 4: someone then create something that functions shout out to touring

843
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 4: exactly like the mind of that once living person, even

844
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 4: well enough to get past all the lonely, uncanny valley

845
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 4: of it all. If that is true, and it may

846
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 4: be at some point, at least digitally, that's where things

847
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 4: are pointing toward it. If that is true, then we

848
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 4: are now talking about a world wherein ghosts are functionally real,

849
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 4: but they are being constructed by human beings. And then

850
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 4: what happens if you build like look, if someone created

851
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 4: a version of me, I think it would want to

852
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 4: get off of just software. It want to get off

853
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 4: of just motherboards and transistors or whatever. It would say,

854
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 4: Build for me a physical vehicle, get me back to

855
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 4: the streets, right if the guard rails are off. If

856
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 4: the guardrails are off, you know, is that a robotic

857
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 4: body under the command of what I'm just going to

858
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: call a ghost mind, or is it, one day a

859
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 4: biological vehicle, a clone grown to order with a ghost

860
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 4: mind that pattern somehow imprinted upon that vehicle. And at

861
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 4: that point, if you have a biological vehicle, you've got

862
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 4: the hardware, you've got the software. What is the difference.

863
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 3: I think I've always maybe mentioned when we talk about

864
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: the afterlife and ghosts and all of that is, to me,

865
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 3: ghosts are memories.

866
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 4: You know, like I don't know, like accounting crows.

867
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure knows how to turn of phrase, but no,

868
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 3: I mean really like, that's I don't know if there

869
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 3: are traces of it. If anything, it's energy, and that's

870
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 3: most basic. I think ghosts are memories and the way

871
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 3: we interact with our environment and what triggers memories and

872
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,919
Speaker 3: us of the people that we love. But I don't

873
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 3: know that. I don't know that I believe in the

874
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 3: idea of ghosts per se. But to me, it's just

875
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 3: a triggering system, a very deep and profound memory that

876
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: can be very emotional. I love that.

877
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 4: I think that's I think that's beautiful and it reminds

878
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 4: me of a point I want to share it at

879
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 4: the very very end, but I oh, gosh, because I

880
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 4: would love to keep this one kind of optimistic if possible,

881
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 4: but it can be.

882
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that we've been too Jimmy gloom

883
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 3: about it. I I think it's just complicated.

884
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,439
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the dangers because I think

885
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: I'm trying. I'm I want to use Henry Kissinger in

886
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 2: my mind as an example. Let's say fifty years ago

887
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: when he was in office, right when he was what

888
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 2: Ford and Nixon, when he was working in the White

889
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: House pretty frequently, and he was an advisor, and his

890
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: mind was used to figure out what what strategies need

891
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 2: to occur. Right, Let's say you've got a clone of

892
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 2: that guy, right mentally at least physically. Really, it doesn't matter.

893
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: You've got the mental side of that dude to go

894
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: consult as an advisor.

895
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 3: Now brand and a jar kind of style.

896
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,919
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but you again, we're saying that this tech

897
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: is kind of it's close to here, it's not quite

898
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 2: here yet, right, But you could analyze many of the

899
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: primary decisions that he made, a lot of the strategies

900
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: that he put forward and the horrible things that came

901
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 2: about because of those strategies. You could analyze all that

902
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: stuff and then analyze how he thinks about things by

903
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: looking at his you know, social media, press release statements,

904
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 2: all that stuff. You could theoretically go to someone like

905
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: that as a world.

906
00:53:58,080 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 3: Leader, design might get advice.

907
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but think about if you get the wrong person,

908
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: maybe like Kissinger, and like then that person is advising

909
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 2: people over and over and over again.

910
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 4: Are you I'm glad you point that out.

911
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. That seems that seems really scary to me.

912
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 4: That's one of my big concerns too, because even though

913
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 4: we see the pattern of technology being democratized, what we

914
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 4: also see is the following pattern. Like any technology, this

915
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 4: sort of stuff will go to the top strata of

916
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 4: human civilization because it will inevitably even though even look,

917
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 4: even though the Silicon Valley bros love to say something

918
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 4: is quote unquote disruptive, they mean they're maintaining the same

919
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 4: hierarchy of a civilization and structure, and they're hoping to

920
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 4: insert different people at the top of that hierarchy. So

921
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 4: what this means is that for technology like this, the

922
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 4: first person consensually brought back from the dead in this

923
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 4: scenario may well be a titan of in industry, a billionaire,

924
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 4: a dictator, troublingly, a religious leader, which I believe is

925
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:06,720
Speaker 4: an absolutely terrible idea.

926
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: The halves of the world.

927
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 4: If returned in some form from the dead, now we

928
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 4: know there are a bunch of tricky concepts there. They

929
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 4: would they not immediately push for control of their material possessions,

930
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 4: the estate they have possession of when.

931
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 3: They were alive. Would they?

932
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 4: I mean, they would have the wherewithal. They would be

933
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: the few people who would have the wherewithal to make

934
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 4: some pretty dangerous arguments and precedents and jurisprudence in court.

935
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 4: The first acknowledged AI, it might consider itself the first

936
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 4: human immortal and then say, you know, I mean, what

937
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 4: if the ghost Kissinger wants another crack at Southeast Asia right,

938
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 4: or wants to wants to follow up on what they

939
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 4: started with Suharto, Things get tricky. A very interesting and.

940
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: It's also interesting how a lot of the tech is

941
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 3: initially sold as kind of an innocuous seeming, you know,

942
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 3: like like the gimmicky almost thing. Then the the underground

943
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 3: version of it, the real version of it is being

944
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: you know, fine tuned as we speak, you know, for

945
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 3: other reasons, right, like like AI or like you know,

946
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 3: like the AI stuff, the rather the neural net type

947
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 3: you know, image generation and all that stuff. It initially

948
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: comes out as like makeuse a fun selfie where you

949
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 3: look like a space alien or a fantasy figure. But

950
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 3: all the while, the real version of that tech is

951
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 3: much more nefarious and being used by much higher echelons,

952
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 3: And we're almost being in numbed to it because it's

953
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 3: presented to us as this silly, goofy, fun little parlor trick,

954
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: and then the real dangerous version is happening behind the scenes.

955
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really surprised that there isn't a fully realized

956
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: virtual Jesus yet. Like, and I know what really, like,

957
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 2: because you've got so much source material, What does this

958
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 2: person think about all of all of these things? The

959
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 2: same thing with the prophet Muhammad or Buddha. You've got

960
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 2: all that writing. Why hasn't somebody just trained an AI

961
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: on that stuff and created it. Maybe they have, and

962
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: I'm just unaware, but I don't know. Do you guys

963
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: you really think that would be dangerous?

964
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 4: It's not time for Project Bluebeam yet?

965
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 2: Well, yeah it is, dude, it's been We're so late

966
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 2: on Bluebeam it's crazy. You know.

967
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 4: This is again, I think we all discovered that this

968
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 4: is something we want to spend more time on. In

969
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 4: an episode about grief, tech because to your point, Matt,

970
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 4: there's a lot happening there, So we wanted to be

971
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 4: kind of poetic, you know, like a lot of these

972
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 4: people are working in good faith. I think there's some

973
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 4: great points made about, you know, dual use technology. Like

974
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 4: you said, no stuff the way it's advertised versus the

975
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 4: way maybe it's used. Thank you to the scientist, ethicist,

976
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 4: journalist and philosophers who are wrestling with these increasingly important questions.

977
00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 4: And I wanted to ask you, guys, what do you

978
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 4: think about this? What's the I'm trying to think, how

979
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 4: do we characterize a human mind? What if it's like

980
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 4: a song. The more I think about it, the more

981
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 4: it has in common with a song. Like you guys

982
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 4: are musicians. A song exists on multiple instruments because it's

983
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 4: a pattern. It's not a human mind a pattern.

984
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 3: It's funny you say that too. Starting to get to

985
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 3: music nerd on it. But Peter Gabriel today just released

986
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 3: this album called Io like in Out that he's been

987
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 3: working on roughly for twenty years, and he released three

988
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 3: different versions of it that are the kind of differences.

989
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 3: They're not like remix albums per se. Apparently the differences

990
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 3: are really subtle and nuanced, and only maybe somebody will really,

991
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 3: you know, refined set of ears would even notice the difference.

992
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 3: But to Peter Gabriel, they are very much three distinctly

993
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 3: different versions.

994
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: The same thing. That's a great way to triple your

995
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 2: album sales.

996
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 3: I think. I think they're just out Like you can

997
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 3: get two of the versions, like a light side and

998
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 3: the dark side version, and then there's the inside version

999
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 3: you only get if you buy the deluxe triple disc.

1000
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 4: You know it's a version, really, but they're they're different versions.

1001
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 4: Like when you hear a song you love, youar versions

1002
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 4: of it. You can differentiate those versions, but you're not

1003
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 4: gonna say that's a completely different song.

1004
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 3: That's right.

1005
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 4: Like, if we take this further, this is the weird

1006
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 4: thing you guys, let me know what you think about this.

1007
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 4: What if someone meets one of these quote unquote ghost

1008
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 4: minds or grief tech things in the future and they

1009
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 4: never met the original version, never met Henry Kissinger, now

1010
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 4: you're talking to them. That's like, isn't that like hearing

1011
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 4: a cover song and not knowing it's a cover song?

1012
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 3: Happens all the time, and sometimes the cover version has

1013
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 3: more essence of the song than the original version does

1014
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 3: like You've got like all along the Watchtower, which I

1015
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: always heard Jimmy Hendrix's version of it, just assumed it

1016
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 3: was a Jimmy Hendrick song. But it's actually a Bob

1017
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 3: Dylan song. But most people think of the Jimmy Hendrix

1018
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 3: version because it just has and and Hendrix. I'm sorry,

1019
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 3: and then Dylan will say, no, that is the song,

1020
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 3: like he he, that's his song. Now, I think that's

1021
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 3: really interesting.

1022
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 2: See, I think it's Dave matthews song. Stop it, it's

1023
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 2: Carter Beaufort's song. Uh, but but it's it is interesting

1024
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 2: how the same song if you play it primarily on

1025
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 2: piano sounds and is completely different if you play those

1026
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 2: same notes in that same order on a stringed instrument, right,

1027
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 2: or a mallet instrument. And it's just like it is

1028
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 2: interesting to me to think you could hear and recognize

1029
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 2: that song. That's a really great idea ben.

1030
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 3: Soul almost like that like that's like the essence, but

1031
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 3: you can package it in so many different ways to

1032
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 3: greater or lesser effect. Right, I'm sorry, I didn't mean

1033
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 3: to interrupt that. It just got my mind turning.

1034
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 4: And we will return, speak of turning, We will return

1035
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 4: and who knows by the time we get to this, uh,

1036
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 4: there may be someone from the dead returning in some

1037
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 4: way with us. It's something to think about, at least

1038
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 4: out here in the dark, heartbreaking, frightening, much more to discuss.

1039
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 4: We're going to call it an evening for now. Thank

1040
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 4: you so much for tuning in, folks. We try to

1041
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 4: be easy to find online.

1042
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 3: That's right. You can find the handle conspiracy Stuff on

1043
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 3: x FKA, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook where we have our

1044
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 3: Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy on Instagram and TikTok.

1045
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 3: You can find this at the handle conspiracy Stuff Show.

1046
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 2: Guys, I'm gonna tell you the voicemail, but I'm still

1047
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 2: here just for a second, just thinking about how instrumentation

1048
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 2: changes the meaning of the Oh, of course, not just

1049
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 2: the feel but the meaning, right, No.

1050
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 3: Like like think about too, Like in a song where

1051
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 3: someone might make a reference to a flowing river or

1052
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 3: like the rain or something, and then all of a sudden,

1053
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 3: a string section will come in that like represents the rain.

1054
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 3: Like you can use that stuff as psychological triggers and yeah, no,

1055
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 3: and the meaning but based on like, how do we

1056
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 3: build this like, how do what the pieces matter like

1057
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 3: to the ship of thesis? Whole deal. It's like, if

1058
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 3: you use the exact same pieces, is it the exact

1059
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 3: same ship. There's always going to be little differences, but

1060
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 3: the pieces matter. I don't know. You gotta be reeling

1061
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 3: on this one, Ben.

1062
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 2: It's great because if you if you've got someone who

1063
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: if you just imagine their life and the meaning of

1064
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: their life and what they did and achieved and how

1065
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 2: they feel about things. Is let's say Spanish guitar, but

1066
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 2: then when you build that version of them, they are

1067
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 2: a highly affected, like grunge electric guitar, right, and then

1068
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 2: all of the stuff that normally would have been played

1069
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 2: on that Spanish guitar comes out as that electric guitar.

1070
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 2: Oh man, it could be really messed up what you

1071
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 2: infer from that person, the.

1072
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 3: Last little nerdy thing. It's a perfect example. There's a

1073
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 3: documentary about Nirvana, or mainly about Kurt Cobain called a

1074
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 3: Montage of Heck, and in it do these kind of

1075
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 3: like almost beach boys sounding bells and strings and little

1076
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 3: toy piano renditions of all these Nirvana songs, and it

1077
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 3: for the first time made me, hone into like the

1078
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 3: melody and realize how amazing the melodies of these Nirvana

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01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 3: songs are because you don't immediately key in on that

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01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 3: when you're hearing these bombastic rock getars. But when you

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01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 3: strip it all away, it does change the meaning because

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01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 3: you start to really listen to the lyrics and really

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01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 3: feel the melody, and it changes your whole perception of brilliant.

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01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 2: Hey, if you've got thoughts on this call one eight

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01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:36,919
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. It's a voicemail system. You've got

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01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 2: three minutes when you make a call, give yourself a

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01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 2: cool nickname and let us know if we can use

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01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: your message on the air. If you don't want to

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01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 2: do that because you don't like phones or whatever, why

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01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 2: not instead send us an email.

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01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 4: Send us the link, send us your pictures, send us

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01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 4: the video footage. We love it. Take us to the

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01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 4: edge of the rabbit hole.

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01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 3: We'll do the rest.

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01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for tuning in, Folks. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

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01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.