Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Centralow.
Speaker 2: The other big cultural war story right now is being
Speaker 2: pushed by people with actual political power, and it involves
Speaker 2: transgender people. Now, wait, I know what you're thinking, scary
Speaker 2: trans people. Isn't that a throwback from like five years
Speaker 2: ago there was an outrage cycle around bathrooms. You remember
Speaker 2: that they're gonna be kidnapping our children and wearing dresses
Speaker 2: while they've pope. But even though none of that scary
Speaker 2: stuff actually happened, they've already kicked off an exciting new sequel.
Speaker 3: It has become a new front in the culture war.
Speaker 3: Republicans across the country are pushing to ban transgender students
Speaker 3: and often specifically trans girls and women from competing in
Speaker 3: school sports and men.
Speaker 2: Everything to me to be able to run, you know,
Speaker 2: asigenital would identify and to run as who I know
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 4: I really just found who I am as a person
Speaker 4: through sports.
Speaker 3: More than twenty five states across the country now considering
Speaker 3: anti trans policies in school sports. Three of those states
Speaker 3: have already signed them into law. Republicans pushing for the
Speaker 3: ban have been unable to appoint to any evidence of
Speaker 3: a problem.
Speaker 5: Will you cite any examples where a young woman was
Speaker 5: denied a scholarship opportunity or a title here in Arizona
Speaker 5: because they were competing against the trans athlete who outperformed them.
Speaker 6: I can't at this point.
Speaker 5: So the answer was now, at this point, no.
Speaker 6: But it's only a matter of time.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, it's only a matter of time. You
Speaker 2: Know what I love about Republicans is that when it
Speaker 2: comes to major issues with tons of evidence, like climate
Speaker 2: change or coronavirus or gun violence, they're like, huh, let's
Speaker 2: wait until we see more evidence. But now there's an
Speaker 2: issue that even exists, and they're like, we don't got
Speaker 2: time for evidence. There's a plastic trophy at steak.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 2: The one thing that people making these laws always point
Speaker 2: to is a single story from Connecticut a few years ago.
Speaker 2: That's not evidence that trans kids are stealing opportunities from
Speaker 2: everyone else. Unfeki's kids have taken away more slots on
Speaker 2: sports teams than trans kids. Honestly, I think conservatives are
Speaker 2: missing the entire point of youth sports in the first place,
Speaker 2: because it's not rarely about the tiny minority of kids
Speaker 2: who will go on to get scholarships and perform at
Speaker 2: an elite level. It's not about that. It's about kids
Speaker 2: achieving their personal best, developing good habits and self esteem,
Speaker 2: and learning to bully the chess team. And culture warriors
Speaker 2: say these laws about trans kids and sports are just
Speaker 2: about being fair to the other children, But the truth
Speaker 2: is it's not stopping there.
Speaker 3: In the state of Arkansas, the state just became the
Speaker 3: first to ban gender affirming medical care for transgender kids,
Speaker 3: even with parental consent.
Speaker 7: In Alabama, there's a bill that would make it a felony,
Speaker 7: punishable by up to ten years in prison, for a
Speaker 7: doctor to prescribe gender affirming medication for trans people under
Speaker 7: age eighteen.
Speaker 8: A similar measure before North Carolina's General Assembly as some
Speaker 8: lawmakers look to ban gender confirming treatments for people under
Speaker 8: twenty one. The bill would prevent doctors from providing gender
Speaker 8: confirming hormone treatment, puberty of blockers, or surgery.
Speaker 9: Senate Bill five fourteen would also compel state employees to
Speaker 9: notify parents if their child displays quote gender non conformity.
Speaker 2: No, man, you guys are playing, So North Carolina is
Speaker 2: going to make its school employees snitch on kids anytime
Speaker 2: that they don't quote conform to their agenda. What does
Speaker 2: that even mean? Conforming to your Like I caught up
Speaker 2: late with the other boys in school. So what you're
Speaker 2: telling me that if I was in the system today,
Speaker 2: my gym teacher would be on the phone with my mom.
Speaker 2: Hello missus. Noah, yeah, no, we need to talk the
Speaker 2: way Trav is throwing a ball. No no, no, no,
Speaker 2: no more like Tracy no I yeah no, I have
Speaker 2: just nitch short about this. Guys. This is not just transphobic,
Speaker 2: it's also sexist and everything else. Right because these Republicans act,
Speaker 2: they act like all they care about is the health
Speaker 2: and well being of the kids. But it kind of
Speaker 2: gives the game away when they start adding on stuff
Speaker 2: that's basically just and don't play with dolls, or we'll
Speaker 2: tell your mom. And look, I'm not a doctor, as
Speaker 2: I found out when I try to take out my
Speaker 2: cousin's appendix riping cohost ninety. But these Republican lawmakers are
Speaker 2: also not doctors, and people who are doctors see things
Speaker 2: very differently.
Speaker 10: Major medical organizations such as the American Medical Association and
Speaker 10: the American Academy of Pediatrics oppose the bell.
Speaker 8: With alarm and dismay pediatricians have watched bills through state
Speaker 8: legislatures across the country.
Speaker 11: It threatens the health and well being of trans gender youth.
Speaker 11: Young people when they reach a certain age, if they
Speaker 11: have gender dysphoria, which means that they experience mental duress
Speaker 11: because they are transgender, might not want to go through puberty,
Speaker 11: and so their doctors might presure them puberty blockers so
Speaker 11: that they don't have to go through puberty and can
Speaker 11: make a decision when they're older about whether or not
Speaker 11: they want to medically transition.
Speaker 12: Me turning into a man is just probably the most
Speaker 12: horrifying thing ever I could ever think of in the
Speaker 12: farthest riches of my mind. Is me not going on
Speaker 12: the hormone blockers anymore. The hormone blockers are like my
Speaker 12: life saver.
Speaker 2: So look, medical professionals and trans people themselves say that
Speaker 2: treating kids early can be extremely beneficial, Which makes you
Speaker 2: wonder what's really behind all of these laws. If you
Speaker 2: ask me, it's hates. Yeah, I love These people are
Speaker 2: angry because trans people don't conform to a neat idea
Speaker 2: of gender, and as humans, we like things when they
Speaker 2: are neat and organize the way we want that's why
Speaker 2: people got so mad when they said Pluto wasn't a planet. Well,
Speaker 2: if it's not a planet, then what is it. Well, actually,
Speaker 2: it's a rocky Kuiper Belt body that straddles the line
Speaker 2: between ah kill you. But as scared as some people
Speaker 2: might be by the idea of a transperson, it is
Speaker 2: nothing compared to how scared trans kids are dealing with
Speaker 2: problems that they don't always understand in a world that
Speaker 2: oftentimes does not accept them. So if these states are
Speaker 2: going to be passing laws to help anyone feel safer,
Speaker 2: it should be there. My guest tonight is a writer, director,
Speaker 2: and producer of the new FX series Pose.
Speaker 13: Please welcome Janet Mark, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 9: Thanks for having me that.
Speaker 2: This is a really exciting reason to have you back
Speaker 2: as well. The new show Posed, which is going to
Speaker 2: be on FX, is a show that is first in
Speaker 2: many ways. I mean, I know why I'm excited, But
Speaker 2: what would you say is the biggest reason you're excited
Speaker 2: about Pose?
Speaker 10: I got a job, I like, yeah, basically, well, you know,
Speaker 10: Ryan Murphy created it, proleptic showrunner shows like Glee, Nip Tuck,
Speaker 10: of course, the people versus O. J. Simpson when a
Speaker 10: lot of Emmy's and all the trophies, and so when
Speaker 10: he invited me to Hollywood to have a meeting with
Speaker 10: him to talk about this show, I was excited by
Speaker 10: the fact that it would be the first of its
Speaker 10: kind to talk about the New York City ballroom scene,
Speaker 10: which a lot of people have known since Paris is Burning,
Speaker 10: but to also center characters and people who have never
Speaker 10: been centered before, trans woman of color.
Speaker 2: Right, And that's what's really fascinating about the story is
Speaker 2: that you have a show that is set in the eighties,
Speaker 2: but it's showing you a story in the eighties that
Speaker 2: many people maybe didn't know exist. So many people didn't
Speaker 2: exist but just didn't think about. And what I found
Speaker 2: fascinating about watching pieces of the episodes was was that
Speaker 2: a lot of people will say about transgender people now
Speaker 2: that where did this come from? This is a new thing.
Speaker 2: This new thing is if it's like a trend, but
Speaker 2: you go, no, trans people are as old as time.
Speaker 2: Was it really important for you to be able to
Speaker 2: tell these stories as authentically as possible in the eighties?
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that there is something about the fact
Speaker 10: that when you look to the past, you can learn
Speaker 10: a lot about your present. For me, I saw that
Speaker 10: you know, HIV AIDS, poverty, harassment, and violence are things
Speaker 10: that you know they were dealing with in eighty seven
Speaker 10: as well as today. And so knowing that twenty six
Speaker 10: trans people were murdered in the United States last year,
Speaker 10: almost all of them women of color, I thought it
Speaker 10: was important that we memorialize the people who who we've
Speaker 10: learned so much from, the people who contributed so much
Speaker 10: to our movement, that people who have given me access
Speaker 10: to be able to be, you know, the first trans
Speaker 10: woman of color to be hired in a Hollywood writer's room,
Speaker 10: the first to write and direct a television series, and
Speaker 10: to be on a television series, and to share it
Speaker 10: with five black and brown trans women of color who
Speaker 10: are the stars in the center of our show.
Speaker 2: It's it's a pioneering show for so many reasons. You know,
Speaker 2: you have five trans women of color who are centered
Speaker 2: in the story. The word censered is so important in
Speaker 2: this because, you know, I read a story on the
Speaker 2: Hollywood Reporter about how they did a study on Latino
Speaker 2: characters on TV and they found that half of them
Speaker 2: were always represented as criminals. And when you look at
Speaker 2: stories of the transgender community, it's always a fringe element,
Speaker 2: you know, in so many stories. You know, it's always
Speaker 2: going to be sex worker, it's going to be something
Speaker 2: that seems like it's not in the mainstream. Was it
Speaker 2: important for you to center these people and show the
Speaker 2: spectrum of life that you can be living.
Speaker 14: Yeah, I think so often too.
Speaker 10: We're often always insist gender stories, non trans people stories
Speaker 10: as a sidekicks, as someone who's a martyr who dies
Speaker 10: in order to teach sis person about what it means
Speaker 10: to be real and authentic. And in our show, we
Speaker 10: center that experience and we don't show the origin stories
Speaker 10: of our characters. We show them as they're fully embodied,
Speaker 10: just trans people living in New York City.
Speaker 14: And with that you have diversity.
Speaker 10: You show that trans folk are not a monolith, that
Speaker 10: we don't have the same dreams and desires that we
Speaker 10: read and shade one another, that we can be villains
Speaker 10: as well as you know, protagonists, right. And I think
Speaker 10: that that for me, as someone who loved television, who
Speaker 10: grew up as TV being a part of like my
Speaker 10: babysitter in a single parent household, it showed me that
Speaker 10: I can be centered and that I deserve to be
Speaker 10: seen and heard, and that at the end of the day,
Speaker 10: the show really is an unconventional family drama.
Speaker 2: Right, And we see so many stories of people watching
Speaker 2: TV shows or movies and for the first time seeing
Speaker 2: themselves on screen. You know, you saw that with Ava
Speaker 2: Duvina's wrinkling time, you saw that with Black Panther. You
Speaker 2: see it with people going I've never ever thought of
Speaker 2: how I've never seen myself. You know. I remember going
Speaker 2: to watch Wonder Woman with friends and my female friends
Speaker 2: were like, they were crying during the fight scene because
Speaker 2: They're like, I've never seen women just kicking men's asses,
Speaker 2: which is really amazing. And you take that for granted,
Speaker 2: you genuinely do. When you were growing up watching TV,
Speaker 2: were there any characters or any shows that in some
Speaker 2: way maybe did make you feel like, you know, there
Speaker 2: was something that you could aspire to, and was this
Speaker 2: something that that really touched you?
Speaker 10: Felicity, she really was the reason why I moved to
Speaker 10: New York City went to YU was literally because I
Speaker 10: saw this white girl with curly hair that was virus
Speaker 10: and love Lauren and wanted to be with you know, Ben,
Speaker 10: That's all I wanted.
Speaker 14: Right, And so I haven't seen.
Speaker 2: Ben, and now you're in the fist way, you're not writing,
Speaker 2: and I think, do you do you feel that gravity
Speaker 2: of putting people on screen that identify people out there
Speaker 2: who maybe have never seen themselves on screen in any way,
Speaker 2: shape or form.
Speaker 14: Yeah.
Speaker 10: The fact that we have love stories on our show,
Speaker 10: the fact that there we are not just nearly points
Speaker 10: of trauma, right, because so often trans bodies are usually
Speaker 10: dead in inactive bodies, and so here we have five
Speaker 10: women who have different dreams, who have love, who want desire,
Speaker 10: who want to be desired, who are funny, who are villains,
Speaker 10: who are all of these different things, and so in
Speaker 10: that when you center these people on the show, you
Speaker 10: show people that number one, it's not scary that they're
Speaker 10: not that they're not horrible people, that they're not freak
Speaker 10: shows that instead they're humans that you care about. In
Speaker 10: TV being such an intimate platform, you know this people
Speaker 10: invite into their home every night. You know, they get
Speaker 10: to know you and they love you and they're invested.
Speaker 10: And I hope that it doesn't only educate and inspire
Speaker 10: and entertain, but it also moves people to care and
Speaker 10: hopefully do something.
Speaker 2: Something is going to do all of those things. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for being able.
Speaker 14: To show again one days of nine.
Speaker 7: Pm on effect Channath.
Speaker 2: Knock everybody, We'll be right back. So what is it
Speaker 2: that scares so many people about transgender communities? And what's
Speaker 2: it like to live as the focus of that fear.
Speaker 2: Jessica Williams finds out.
Speaker 15: Iowa's most famous for its corn fields, butter sculptures and
Speaker 15: butter sculptures of corn fields until last summer, when transgender
Speaker 15: woman Meghan Taylor tried to check in to the Drury
Speaker 15: In in the city of Des Moines. We sat down
Speaker 15: with Taylor herself for an exclusive.
Speaker 6: Tell all I could tell when I checked in to
Speaker 6: the hotel that it was.
Speaker 15: It was I got this real, Megan Taylor. It was
Speaker 15: July twelfth, twenty fifteen. You presented your ID to the
Speaker 15: hotel manager.
Speaker 6: I have a reservation, but she was on to you.
Speaker 1: Fearing for her life, she took immediate action.
Speaker 10: I have to me, that's a little unusual, that is
Speaker 10: checking into the hotel, and if they're dressed as a woman,
Speaker 10: but it's a man's driver's license.
Speaker 15: And that's when the cops came and all hell broke loose.
Speaker 15: But let's rewind here what triggered the cops to respond?
Speaker 14: You pull out a.
Speaker 15: Gun and then the cops come and you're arrested, and
Speaker 15: none of that happened.
Speaker 1: What did you pull out a knife?
Speaker 6: Now?
Speaker 3: What did you do?
Speaker 6: Drugs? Nothing of the story.
Speaker 15: Well, then, why the hell were you arrested?
Speaker 6: I got arrested but because I was a black chrance
Speaker 6: to the.
Speaker 15: Women, specifically, cops held her because she didn't have a
Speaker 15: prescription for her hormone pills.
Speaker 1: And this is two thy and sixteen.
Speaker 15: What were you doing in Iowa?
Speaker 6: I was there going to a funeral?
Speaker 2: You were there for a funeral?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And did you get to attendant?
Speaker 6: I didn't get to make the funeral at all?
Speaker 1: How long were you in jail?
Speaker 14: Four?
Speaker 6: I was in jail for eight days. I'm sorry, it's terrible.
Speaker 6: Take your time, ugh.
Speaker 15: I thought it was tough being a black woman, but
Speaker 15: compared to a black transgender woman, I might as well
Speaker 15: be a white frat dude.
Speaker 1: To the Dave Matthews concert.
Speaker 6: Transgender women get arrested all the time, especially black transgender women,
Speaker 6: just by walking down the street or anything, and by.
Speaker 15: Anything she means literally anything because of discrimination and profiling.
Speaker 15: At least forty seven percent of black trans people will have,
Speaker 15: at some point in their lives been incarcerated. Let's underline
Speaker 15: bold and set fire to that graphic because it's forty
Speaker 15: seven percent. You think there'd be los to correct this,
Speaker 15: but instead, this year alone, state legislatures have introduced one
Speaker 15: hundred and seventy five anti trans bills. Many make it
Speaker 15: legal to discriminate based solely on religious beliefs.
Speaker 1: And then you have these bathroom bills.
Speaker 3: It in fine and imprisoned transgender people who use public
Speaker 3: restrooms that don't match the gender on their birth certificate.
Speaker 1: That's what's really triggering this trans panic.
Speaker 15: Just listen to Colorado representative and Elmer Fudd lookalike Gordon
Speaker 15: Kling and Schmidt.
Speaker 1: Should we fear the transgender community?
Speaker 16: Well, they not only want to be confused about their
Speaker 16: own identity, but they want the rest of us to
Speaker 16: be confused with them. Now they want the government to
Speaker 16: join them in that pretense. They're making us into liars.
Speaker 15: Wow, okay, I met with these so called liars to
Speaker 15: find out what their evil intentions are.
Speaker 17: There's a notion that trans people are perpetrators in some
Speaker 17: way that we're sneaking and trying to trick you for
Speaker 17: the purposes of having sex with you.
Speaker 6: And that's not the case at all.
Speaker 7: People just want to see male and female to fit
Speaker 7: in one of those two boxes.
Speaker 6: And if it doesn't, it makes people uncomfortable and they're
Speaker 6: surely not a choice.
Speaker 14: That's all you need to know.
Speaker 15: Well not according to Klingenschmid, who thinks that we're all
Speaker 15: going to get attacked in the bathroom.
Speaker 16: A man can go into a ladies room and assault
Speaker 16: you and your little girl.
Speaker 15: Especially in our most important bathrooms.
Speaker 16: Next time, ladies, you go out to Olive Gordon, watch
Speaker 16: out who's going to be in the bathroom.
Speaker 17: There's no reported incidences of any trans person ever raping
Speaker 17: or assaulting anyone in any bathroom ever.
Speaker 6: If anything, Transpiper are the ones getting assaulted.
Speaker 15: These people are up against some books. There must be
Speaker 15: some small way I can help them out. Give me
Speaker 15: some offensive comments or questions, and I'll give you some
Speaker 15: good answers you can use in your day to day life.
Speaker 6: Are your feet so small you.
Speaker 2: Think my feet is more?
Speaker 14: Wow?
Speaker 15: Okay, that's guns of blazon on that question. I don't
Speaker 15: currently have it, so how much? How much for sex? Oh?
Speaker 6: How do you have sex? So your parents ashamed of you?
Speaker 6: What's the gender marker? Why don't you tell him that
Speaker 6: you're really a man?
Speaker 1: No, but it's appropriate.
Speaker 14: You have cadaver tits.
Speaker 1: Don't tell me what that is.
Speaker 6: What's your real name?
Speaker 12: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I just want to know. Yeah, what's your name? Did
Speaker 6: you chuck it off?
Speaker 15: The transgender community is more pressed than I could have
Speaker 15: ever imagined. So why does Gordon feel so threatened? Have
Speaker 15: you ever been attacked by a transgender person? Is why
Speaker 15: this is happening? No, have you ever had a traumatic
Speaker 15: experience with a transperson?
Speaker 16: I wouldn't call it traumatic?
Speaker 2: No, I devastating?
Speaker 6: Yeah, no I haven't.
Speaker 1: So why does he feel this way?
Speaker 16: Dressing like a woman and he's not a woman.
Speaker 1: Wait a second. This guy's a preacher too, and he thinks.
Speaker 16: What it's not just a psychological disorder, it's actually a
Speaker 16: demonic spirit.
Speaker 1: Okay, so now they're possessed.
Speaker 16: Go on, I would be comfortable talking about religious freedom,
Speaker 16: but i'd have to change into my alter ego.
Speaker 2: If you're okay with that, you have to change into
Speaker 2: your alter ego?
Speaker 12: Who are you?
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga? Go ahead and change. Okay, hold up, is
Speaker 1: everybody seeing this?
Speaker 15: I am actually waiting for this man to transition so
Speaker 15: that he can feel more comfortable during our interview. Oh
Speaker 15: and also, hey, heads up, I am not judging him
Speaker 15: for his personal choice until he took out his phone
Speaker 15: to judge others for their personal choices.
Speaker 16: And Deuteronomy twenty two to five says a woman must
Speaker 16: not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear woman's clothing,
Speaker 16: for the Lord your God to tests anyone who does this.
Speaker 17: I don't remember that part, but there is a part
Speaker 17: about shellfish or stoning people to death, getting tattoos.
Speaker 1: But what about their sincerely held religious beliefs.
Speaker 9: They can go in their hat because we have separation
Speaker 9: of church and state, because we believe in our constitution.
Speaker 15: Nevertheless, these bathroom bills are being passed and Gordon is
Speaker 15: doing everything he can to make it happen.
Speaker 16: Get used to the idea of having your women and
Speaker 16: children share bathrooms with cross dressing men who are going
Speaker 16: to expose themselves to you.
Speaker 15: Do you, for whatever reason, associate being transgender.
Speaker 1: With being a pervert?
Speaker 16: I mean that is perversion. It's people who label themselves
Speaker 16: as transgender for the purpose of getting that access to
Speaker 16: violate the rights of others.
Speaker 15: Is it fair to say that because you're a priest
Speaker 15: that you're a pedophile, Well, of course not.
Speaker 1: Why is it?
Speaker 15: Of course not? Why?
Speaker 16: Because some people are criminals and some people are not criminals.
Speaker 15: Could you take that logic and apply that to the
Speaker 15: transgender community.
Speaker 16: They're apples and oranges.
Speaker 15: By apples and oranges, do you mean apples and apples?
Speaker 15: Unfortunately a lot of people think like Gordon, So how
Speaker 15: can we end this transphobic epidemic?
Speaker 17: Hopefully they can understand that we are striving towards becoming
Speaker 17: a more authentic version of ourselves after a lot of
Speaker 17: soul searching and a lot of thought, and sometimes a
Speaker 17: lot of trauma and tragedy.
Speaker 6: Passing these bills is absolutely going to just add fuel
Speaker 6: to the fire and ignite trans panic coming soon.
Speaker 1: They've existed since the beginning of time. They are not
Speaker 1: who people think they are.
Speaker 6: Girl, You know, we need to elevate that rightly.
Speaker 15: They come out at night stop no or during the day,
Speaker 15: depending on their schedule.
Speaker 9: You forgot your cut.
Speaker 15: They have an appetite when they're hungry. You're really gonna
Speaker 15: love this salad this summer get ready for the most
Speaker 15: boring movie ever. We're transgender people cause trans panic, even
Speaker 15: though they're just like the rest of us, Yeah, just
Speaker 15: like us.
Speaker 2: Frive Month is coming to an end today, but that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean the conversations around gay and trans rights need
Speaker 2: to stop until next year. So to keep the conversation
Speaker 2: going on our end, I want to introduce Veronica Ivy.
Speaker 2: She's a transgender rights activist who is the first out
Speaker 2: trans woman to win Attract Cycling World Championship. Please welcome,
Speaker 2: Bronica Ivy.
Speaker 14: Welcome to yourself a fel So.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say from the top because I've noticed this
Speaker 2: happens in every conversation every time you bring up trans rights.
Speaker 2: So if you have a discussion and you say trans
Speaker 2: people tense up, I understand why we live in a
Speaker 2: world where now there are people who are so transphobic
Speaker 2: that it makes it almost impossible for people who aren't
Speaker 2: to ask any questions, to have any conversations, to have
Speaker 2: any discourse that doesn't lump them in with transphobia. So
Speaker 2: I'm really glad that you're joining us on the show
Speaker 2: to talk about this because it feels like one of
Speaker 2: the biggest issues in America, and yet no one can
Speaker 2: seem to talk about it. So let's start with your journey.
Speaker 2: You've competed at some of the highest levels in sports,
Speaker 2: and you know, as your hoodie says, sport is a
Speaker 2: human right. That is what you believe in. Talk me through,
Speaker 2: check me through just a little bit of why you
Speaker 2: believe fighting for transgender athletes to compete in the categories
Speaker 2: they'd like to in sport is so important.
Speaker 9: So it's a fundamental tenet of like the Olympic movement
Speaker 9: that support is a human right. So in their Olympic Charter,
Speaker 9: in their fourth Fundamental Principle of OLYMPUSM, they say participation
Speaker 9: in sport is a human right and they mean that
Speaker 9: at the competitive level. So this issue, people like to
Speaker 9: say that it's a complicated issue, and I don't actually
Speaker 9: think it is.
Speaker 14: I think it's very simple.
Speaker 9: It all boils down to do you actually think that
Speaker 9: trans women and intersex women are real women and are
Speaker 9: really female or not? And if you do, it's very simple,
Speaker 9: just stop policing who counts as a real woman. Because
Speaker 9: this has had history of racism built into it over
Speaker 9: the years. It's not an accident that the intersex athletes
Speaker 9: who get singled out are women of color from the
Speaker 9: global South, because who gets singled out for scrutiny is
Speaker 9: based on white women's conceptions of femininity, and that's being
Speaker 9: weaponized against trans people too.
Speaker 14: So it's a fear.
Speaker 9: Of protecting the fragile, weak cis white women from the
Speaker 9: rest of us.
Speaker 14: So there are many.
Speaker 2: Elements to what you said, which I appreciate, so let's
Speaker 2: try and break them down. One thing that confuses me
Speaker 2: personally is it seems like we have discussions about who
Speaker 2: should participate in which category and how. You know, on
Speaker 2: the face of it, it seems simple, as you say,
Speaker 2: you know, if somebody identifies as a woman, if they're transgender,
Speaker 2: they can compete against women who are born biologically and
Speaker 2: then if not, then not. But then there are many
Speaker 2: who would argue, who are not transphobes. There are many
Speaker 2: who born biologically women who will say, but you have
Speaker 2: an unnatural advantage over me, and that makes the sports unfair.
Speaker 2: How do you respond to that?
Speaker 14: Yeah, there's lots of ways you can respond to that.
Speaker 9: So the first is the very language of you were
Speaker 9: born and I'm not biological somehow, like I don't think.
Speaker 14: I'm a cyborg.
Speaker 9: So like this idea that like, oh, you're not a
Speaker 9: biological woman, Well, I am a woman.
Speaker 14: That's a fact. I am female.
Speaker 9: So all my identity records, my racing license, my medical records,
Speaker 9: I'll say female, right, And I'm pretty sure I made
Speaker 9: a biological stuff. So I'm a biological female as well.
Speaker 9: So this question of do trans women have an advantage
Speaker 9: over sis women, we don't know. In fact, there's basically
Speaker 9: no published research on this question. However, there's good reason
Speaker 9: to think that there isn't. But I think it's irrelevant
Speaker 9: because we allow all kinds of competitive advantages within women's sport.
Speaker 9: So one example I love to talk about is the
Speaker 9: twenty sixteen Rio Olympic women's high jump final. First place
Speaker 9: was over six foot three, tenth place was five foot five,
Speaker 9: So a ten and a half inch hype difference between
Speaker 9: first and tenth at the Olympics in high jump, and
Speaker 9: we call that fair. So the range of body types
Speaker 9: within the female category is way way bigger than anything
Speaker 9: that could be attributed to trans women. So if there's
Speaker 9: an advantage, and I'm not saying that there is for
Speaker 9: trans women in women's sport, it's not an unfair advantage.
Speaker 9: But also we've been competing at trying to compete.
Speaker 14: At the highest level for decades.
Speaker 9: We've been allowed to compete for decades, and no one
Speaker 9: has won an elite World championship, no one has won
Speaker 9: an Olympic gold medal. This Tokyo Olympics was the first
Speaker 9: time transwomen even qualified for the Olympics. So this idea
Speaker 9: that trans women are certainly going to take over women's
Speaker 9: sport is an irrational fear of trans women, which is
Speaker 9: the Dictionary definition of transphobia.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you say that, you know, because
Speaker 2: it's interesting to say that because I think if I
Speaker 2: were to push back or you know, even not even
Speaker 2: playing Devil's advocates, there are a few things that could
Speaker 2: be argued. Number One, you could argue that although the
Speaker 2: trans women who competed in the Olympics didn't dominate, she
Speaker 2: did beat a field of women who might have qualified
Speaker 2: for that position. Right. Secondly, when you talk about the
Speaker 2: height differences, I agree with this completely, but there are
Speaker 2: many who would argue that we exist in a state
Speaker 2: where a lot of the surgeries on you, a lot
Speaker 2: of the technology, just the technology is new. Transgenderism is
Speaker 2: not new. We know it throughout time, We've seen it
Speaker 2: throughout history. But there are many who would say, how
Speaker 2: do we ensure that we are creating some sort of standard.
Speaker 2: And the reason we talk to this is, you know
Speaker 2: we talk about this is it's the reason they have
Speaker 2: to regulator performance enhancing drugs. For instance, what is fair?
Speaker 2: What can you drink? What can you not drink? What
Speaker 2: can you consume? What can you not consume? Some would
Speaker 2: say if you are born that way, that's how sport
Speaker 2: has determined who goes where, And then some would say, no, who,
Speaker 2: regardless of who you are, you should be able to compete.
Speaker 2: My question then comes in from a really honestly a
Speaker 2: different place. I look at somebody like Oscar Pistorius from
Speaker 2: South Africa, right, he was the double amputee, and Oscar
Speaker 2: Pistorius actually went, well, I want to compete in the
Speaker 2: able bodied race, right, And people are like, well, do
Speaker 2: you have an advantage? Do not et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 2: the prosthetics? But then could there not be an argument
Speaker 2: if there is no advantage in that, that then trans
Speaker 2: women should be able to compete. But in the men's
Speaker 2: races then because they'd still be able to compete in
Speaker 2: the sport.
Speaker 14: But they're women and they're female.
Speaker 9: So, like I said, this boils down to our trans
Speaker 9: women really women, Are they really female? Because if you
Speaker 9: think yes, then we belong competing with other women. So
Speaker 9: it's an extreme indignity to say I believe you're a
Speaker 9: woman except for sport, right, So you can't single out
Speaker 9: one of the most important.
Speaker 14: Facets of our society. We are obsessed with.
Speaker 9: Athletes are some of the most highly praised, highly paid
Speaker 9: people on the plant. So you can't say that, like,
Speaker 9: I believe you and I support you, but not for
Speaker 9: this one really big thing that society really cares about
Speaker 9: it right.
Speaker 2: And I'm saying I get confused by why we distill
Speaker 2: it down into just two things. I'll tell you why.
Speaker 2: As we learn about gender being a spectrum, as we
Speaker 2: learn that people can identify in a multitude of ways,
Speaker 2: we accept the fact that we don't have to put
Speaker 2: people into categories of man or woman. You know, that's
Speaker 2: why they say protect trans women's like otherwise, which women
Speaker 2: are you protecting? It's an argument that doesn't separate or
Speaker 2: diminish anybody, but gives more specificity to what people are
Speaker 2: saying and so when we talk about these things, I
Speaker 2: sometimes get confused by why we're trying to force the
Speaker 2: people into two again when we've been taught that there
Speaker 2: isn't a two whereas a sport like let's say boxing,
Speaker 2: for instance, in boxing, people fight across all weight categories.
Speaker 2: They don't just go men's boxing, women's boxing. They go
Speaker 2: no men heavyweight, super heavy weight, and then they'll be
Speaker 2: like middleweight, bantamweight, flyweight, featherweight. There's like guys who weigh
Speaker 2: nothing punching each other. And I mean this genuine is
Speaker 2: I've always thought to myself, it's interesting how in boxing
Speaker 2: they went, well, we don't just want to see guys fighting,
Speaker 2: we want to see guys fighting at different weights. The
Speaker 2: UFC does the same thing. They go, you're gonna fight
Speaker 2: in your weight class, which has it seems crazy, how
Speaker 2: can you break it down? And yet it's worked. And
Speaker 2: so I wonder if you've ever considered and I'm not
Speaker 2: saying it's your job, by the way, but if you've
Speaker 2: ever considered it literally.
Speaker 5: Is oh, then great.
Speaker 2: Have you ever considered a world where it becomes more specific?
Speaker 2: Then you know, the same thing they did in the Paralympics.
Speaker 2: They they had to find a way where they classified
Speaker 2: how a single amputee could run against somebody who's partially
Speaker 2: blind or a double amputy and how do we grade that?
Speaker 2: So do you not think that we're limiting ourselves by
Speaker 2: saying men's sports women's sports when we now know that
Speaker 2: there's so many more genders.
Speaker 14: So I'm really gonna just satisfy you right now.
Speaker 2: Well, you don't know what I'm looking for, though, so
Speaker 2: you can't I do.
Speaker 9: I know you're looking for something other than what I'm
Speaker 9: gonna say, and that that is a very question and
Speaker 9: a very difficult question, but it's a separate question. The
Speaker 9: question we're talking about is, given how sport is currently structured,
Speaker 9: should we include trans women and intersex women in women's sport?
Speaker 9: And my answer to that is a clear yes. If
Speaker 9: you want to say, should we revisit how we structure
Speaker 9: all of sport?
Speaker 14: I would say, yeah, we should do that.
Speaker 9: But if your only reason for doing that is because
Speaker 9: you can't just accept trans women or women, that's a
Speaker 9: problem I got with you.
Speaker 2: I understand, and I'm not saying it's not with you. No, No,
Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying. No, I completely hear what
Speaker 2: you're saying. So let me ask you this. Then, you know, again,
Speaker 2: eliminating fringes, because everything on the internet becomes fringe, everything
Speaker 2: becomes a fight and an argument. If somebody comes to
Speaker 2: you in good faith and I mean genuinely good faith
Speaker 2: and they say to you, you know, Veronica, I was
Speaker 2: born a woman, raised a woman. I've suffered or lived
Speaker 2: in experienced life as a woman. This is where I am.
Speaker 2: This is where my body has gotten me to. I've
Speaker 2: grown as a woman. My body has had the testosterono
Speaker 2: estrogen that it had to get me to this point,
Speaker 2: and that's why I am here. And I feel like
Speaker 2: you may or may not have the advantage, but we
Speaker 2: don't know yet. So why can't we wait to know
Speaker 2: these things before you compete against me? How would you
Speaker 2: respond to that?
Speaker 9: Because that's not how human rights work. So the way
Speaker 9: human rights work is that the default is inclusion, and
Speaker 9: the burden of proof is on the people seeking to exclude,
Speaker 9: not the people seeking to include. So I want to
Speaker 9: share something shocking with everybody. It wasn't until five years
Speaker 9: ago that we actually studied the relationship between natural testosterone
Speaker 9: and performance, and we found that there's no relationship whatsoever
Speaker 9: between unaltered, natural anddogenous testosterone and sport performance. About zero
Speaker 9: point five percent of elite male track and field athletes
Speaker 9: at the world championship level are below the women's average
Speaker 9: of testosterone, competing with men with eighty to one hundred
Speaker 9: times as much testosterone at no competitive disadvantage, and that
Speaker 9: fact has not been picked.
Speaker 14: Up by the broader media landscape.
Speaker 9: So when you say I'm a woman and I have
Speaker 9: this much testosterone, well, first, there's a huge range within women,
Speaker 9: definitely into the male range, and there is no relationship
Speaker 9: between her having a competitive vantage over women with lower testosterone.
Speaker 9: So there are elite sis men with low testosterone lower
Speaker 9: than a given woman who's out competing her. So our
Speaker 9: bodies and biology is not this simple we thought it was,
Speaker 9: and it isn't. So we know that when you add
Speaker 9: testosterone to your natural levels, like doping, you tend to
Speaker 9: get bigger, stronger, faster. We also know that when you
Speaker 9: drop your testosterone levels, like trans women tend to do,
Speaker 9: you tend to get slower. But what your natural level
Speaker 9: is has no relationship to your sport performance, and we've
Speaker 9: been singling out that factor, testosterone against the scientific evidence.
Speaker 2: But I'm a little confused, and forgive me if I'm
Speaker 2: slow to understand this. You just said the natural level
Speaker 2: doesn't give you an advantage or a disadvantage, but you
Speaker 2: said if people do have an addition or subtraction of it,
Speaker 2: then it does give you a disadvantage or an advantage.
Speaker 14: Well, it affects things.
Speaker 9: So for example, like my body doesn't produce testosterone, and
Speaker 9: it hasn't for a decade, but I switch sports from
Speaker 9: a road cycling event to a track power event, and
Speaker 9: I switched training, and I put on twenty five pounds
Speaker 9: of muscle, and I went from being able to squat
Speaker 9: one seventy to.
Speaker 14: Three seventy five.
Speaker 9: So I don't produce a testosterone and I squat a
Speaker 9: lot and that's just because I change training. So it's
Speaker 9: not so simple as Okay, if you drop your testosterone,
Speaker 9: you will get weaker. Because if you change your training,
Speaker 9: your diet, your rest and recovery, your sport you're performing
Speaker 9: can change.
Speaker 2: Your body will change. It seems like we're always going
Speaker 2: to end up in a cul de sac because many
Speaker 2: people use it as a cudgel. I've realized to scare people. Oh,
Speaker 2: the transgenders are coming for you. Your bathroom is your
Speaker 2: sports and everything the careful what you say, but it
Speaker 2: feels like there are many discussions to be had. It
Speaker 2: feels like, as you said, you know, the research of
Speaker 2: the science, everything hasn't caught up. But I appreciate you
Speaker 2: for coming on the show and discussing this with us.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me.
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Speaker 1: This has been a Comedy Central podcast.
Speaker 15: Yeah.