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Speaker 1: Hey, they're extraordinaries. Heads up.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode is about rabies, so we'll be touching on

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Speaker 2: topics related to death and animal testing. Please decide if

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Speaker 2: that content sounds like a good fit for you or

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Speaker 2: for any children that might be hanging out in earshot.

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Speaker 1: Thanks.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty five, rabies made the news in the

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Speaker 2: United States. A kidney transplant recipient had passed away from

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Speaker 2: rabies and it was determined that their organ donor had

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Speaker 2: had an undiagnosed case of rabies. Humans rarely transmit rabies

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Speaker 2: to each other, and organ and tissue transplants are pretty

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Speaker 2: much the only way it happens. But how does someone

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Speaker 2: end up with undiagnosed rabies. Well, the man who would

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Speaker 2: go on to become the organ donor was holding a

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Speaker 2: kitten in an outbuilding when a skunk came in. The

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Speaker 2: skunk approached the man, who perceived that the skunk was

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Speaker 2: trying to kill kitten because the skunk was very hungry.

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Speaker 2: The man knocked the skunk unconscious they're made of pretty

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Speaker 2: stern stuff out in the country, and got a scratch

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Speaker 2: on his shin in the process. In hindsight, he should

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Speaker 2: have thoroughly washed out that wound and immediately gone to

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Speaker 2: see a doctor for rabie's treatment, but he dismissed the

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Speaker 2: scratch and didn't think he had been bitten. He just

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Speaker 2: chalked it all up to an unfortunate interaction with a

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Speaker 2: hungry but not necessarily rabid skunk. Five weeks later, he

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Speaker 2: began hallucinating, he had trouble swallowing, and two days after

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Speaker 2: that he appeared to have suffered a cardiac arrest. He

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Speaker 2: never regained consciousness and was eventually declared brain dead. His

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Speaker 2: family did report the skunk interaction, but cardiac arrest seemed

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Speaker 2: a more likely cause of death. His kidney and three

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Speaker 2: cornia tissue graphs were eventually given to recipients, and as

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Speaker 2: you now know, the kidney recipient passed away. When it

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Speaker 2: was determined that the kidney recipient had rabies. Some sleuthing

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Speaker 2: determined that the organ donor had originally died of Raebe's

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Speaker 2: as well. At that point, the cornea tissue grass were

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Speaker 2: removed and all three recipients were given treatment for rabies. Thankfully,

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Speaker 2: they all remained symptom free. This scenario where an organ

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Speaker 2: donor transmitted rabies to organ and tissue recipients has only

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Speaker 2: happened four times since nineteen seventy eight in the.

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Speaker 1: United States, but it makes the news in the United.

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Speaker 2: States because rabies deaths are so incredibly rare here, but

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Speaker 2: globally they're not rare. Around sixty thousand people die each

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Speaker 2: year from rabies, and many of them are children. And

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Speaker 2: these deaths happened despite the fact that we have a

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Speaker 2: vaccine that could save them if only it was administered

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Speaker 2: soon after the initial rabies exposure. So today we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about rabies, how you can get it, how

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Speaker 2: you can avoid it, the history of vaccine development, and

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Speaker 2: what vaccines we have available today. Welcome to Daniel and

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Speaker 2: Kelly's Rabid Uni. Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I expected, based

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Speaker 3: on childhood cartoons, to worry a lot about quicksand and

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Speaker 3: rabi's when I was growing up.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kelly Wiersmith.

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Speaker 2: I study parasites and space, and yeah, I also thought

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Speaker 2: that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem

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Speaker 2: as an adult than it ended up being.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, then my question for you today, Kelly

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Speaker 3: is have you ever stepped in quicksand or had a

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Speaker 3: serious concern about getting rabies.

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Speaker 2: I never stepped in quicksand, although I did almost get

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Speaker 2: stuck in a salt marsh once in some mud. I

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Speaker 2: had a moment where I was out there by myself,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, am I going to be able

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Speaker 2: to get my foot out? Or is this the end?

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Speaker 2: As the tide is coming in? And it wasn't the

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Speaker 2: end because here I am.

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Speaker 3: Well probably in that case, it's just by by boot, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I did lose that boot.

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Speaker 3: Whatever you donated it to future archaeology is what you did?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Or I polluted that estuary with some microplastics.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: No, in five thousand years, some PhD student is going

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Speaker 3: to write a whole thesis about the ritual processes surrounding

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Speaker 3: your boots.

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Speaker 2: Okay, sure, I wouldn't want to read that thesis, but I.

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Speaker 1: Hope they passed.

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Speaker 3: Well, what about rabies?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we moved to this property, there were

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Speaker 2: two barn cats on the property and the woman was

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Speaker 2: moving to a place that didn't have a barn and

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Speaker 2: so we offered to keep the barn cats. And every

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Speaker 2: once in a while they'll catch a bird. And when

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Speaker 2: they catch a bird, I keep it This is the

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Speaker 2: Wienersmith family equivalent of poop in the fridge. My husband

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Speaker 2: is not thrilled when I do this, but I do it.

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Speaker 2: And so I reached down once because I thought the

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Speaker 2: birds and this was on my birthday.

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Speaker 1: I reached down.

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Speaker 2: I thought the cats had caught a bird, and as

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Speaker 2: soon as I picked it up, I shouted an expletive

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Speaker 2: because I realized they hadn't caught a bird. They had

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Speaker 2: caught a bat oho and I had picked up that

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Speaker 2: bat with a bear hand. And so immediately I was like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: do I need to go get a rabies vaccine? And

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Speaker 2: so I called the Poison Control Center and they ended

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Speaker 2: up deciding no, it's probably fine. You probably don't need

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Speaker 2: a vaccine. And I was like, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: hear the word probably. I want to hear one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: There is zero tant you're gonna get rabies.

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Speaker 3: You're talking to a worrier here, people.

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Speaker 1: That's right, you know, I did say. I was like,

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Speaker 1: look at I have severe anxiety.

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Speaker 2: If the answer isn't one hundred percent, I want to

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Speaker 2: come in and get the raby shot. And they're like, lady,

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Speaker 2: you're fine, and I was like all right, speaking your language,

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Speaker 2: that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: What about you.

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Speaker 3: Well, I didn't have to worry about rabies, but growing

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Speaker 3: up in northern New Mexico, you do have to worry

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Speaker 3: about the plague. Oh and I remember one time seeing

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Speaker 3: a dead squirrel and poking it, and then going home

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Speaker 3: excitedly telling my mom how I saw this dead squirrel

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Speaker 3: and played with it, and she was like, ugh, you what?

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Speaker 3: Oh no, And from then on I was sure that

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Speaker 3: I was going to get the bubonic plague, which existed,

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Speaker 3: you know, medieval Europe and New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and in like mountains in California.

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Speaker 1: Oh I do, I do.

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Speaker 2: But for both of these there are treatments if you

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Speaker 2: catch it pretty soon. There's antibiotics for the plague that

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Speaker 2: does not plague us anymore, and we have vaccines for rabies,

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Speaker 2: which we'll be talking about today.

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Speaker 3: Well that's why we joke that New Mexico is home

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Speaker 3: of the flea, land of the plague.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that doesn't doesn't make me want to move there.

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Speaker 3: No, No, the land of entrapment. Anyway. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of wonderful things about New Mexico, but you don't really

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Speaker 3: appreciate them growing up there.

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Speaker 2: As a teenager, I feel the same way about Ohio.

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Speaker 2: But I guess I feel the same way as an

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Speaker 2: adult about Ohio.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 3: Well, speaking of not appreciating things, I don't appreciate getting rabies,

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Speaker 3: but I do appreciate our listener's curiosity.

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Speaker 1: Yes, me too.

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Speaker 2: And we got a request for an episode topic from Gurjeet.

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Speaker 2: They wanted to know about rabies, and so I was

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Speaker 2: happy to oblige because rabies is an absolutely horrible topic

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Speaker 2: but also fascinating and so so that is Kelly's ven

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Speaker 2: diagram of favorite things to talk about.

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Speaker 3: That's right. We don't exploit true crime on this podcast,

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Speaker 3: but we do talk about gooey biological pain and suffering.

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Speaker 1: We do.

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Speaker 2: And I came across what I thought was a fun

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Speaker 2: fact while I was doing the research, which is that

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Speaker 2: an old treatment that did not work. So treatment is

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Speaker 2: in quotes here. An old treatment for rabies was that

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Speaker 2: you would take the hair of the dog that bit

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Speaker 2: you and put it on the wound, and you would

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Speaker 2: hope that that would save you from actually getting the disease.

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Speaker 3: Is that the origin of the phrase.

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Speaker 1: That is the origin of the phrase.

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Speaker 3: Now mostly used to justifyd mimosas at brunch.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right, and we will see that many of our

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Speaker 2: extraordinaries have an extraordinary desire to continue drinking in the morning.

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Speaker 2: So let's go ahead and see what the extraordinaries had

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Speaker 2: to say when we asked the phrase hair of the

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Speaker 2: dog came from an ineffective treatment for what disease?

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Speaker 3: Branchosis? Jesus Wow, what a good question. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be ignorance to say alcoholism.

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Speaker 4: I have never heard the phrase before. Hmmm, what disease

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Speaker 4: would be associated with dog hair? I'm going to say

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Speaker 4: lime disease due to ticks.

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Speaker 5: The hair of the dog originally refers to the prevention

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Speaker 5: of rabies and is of course false. Probably has something

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Speaker 5: to do with the old principle of like cures like,

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Speaker 5: and a myth would spread very rapidly in an environment

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Speaker 5: of wishful thinking and despair. With dog in the phrase,

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Speaker 5: I'm going to go with rabies.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's probably something related to tuberculosis.

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Speaker 6: Basically a hangover, and it's so shameful that you have

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Speaker 6: to walk home and then you find a dive bar

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Speaker 6: on the way home, and you make even more terrible

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Speaker 6: life choices.

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Speaker 4: It might be a reference to rabies, the hair of

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Speaker 4: the dog that bit you, based on magical thinking like

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Speaker 4: cures like or some such.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work in these parts.

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Speaker 3: It means if whiskey culls the hangover, whiskey'll salt it.

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Speaker 3: But I think it refers to an old cure for abes.

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Speaker 7: Since hair of the dog refers to a hangover remedy,

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Speaker 7: maybe alcoholism. But for some reason, I'm thinking tuberculosis, and

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Speaker 7: I don't know why, but I'm sure it hasn't always

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Speaker 7: referred to that bloody mary.

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Speaker 5: The next morning, I'm thinking the ineffective treatment of being

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Speaker 5: hungover by drinking more.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, sia is this or something right?

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Speaker 2: So it seems like there was a pretty nice split

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Speaker 2: here between folks who were definitely like, this has to

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Speaker 2: do with alcohol, and folks who were like, yeah, alcohol maybe,

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Speaker 2: but definitely rabies.

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Speaker 3: As did you go down a rabbit hole and figure

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Speaker 3: out if whiskey is actually good in the morning if

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Speaker 3: you have hangover?

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Speaker 2: I did not. I'm guessing that just delays the inevitable.

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Speaker 2: But I know I didn't look into that. That was

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Speaker 2: a little too far afield of the topic of the day, So.

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Speaker 3: For those of you looking for a scientific reason to

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Speaker 3: day drink, You're not going to find it on the

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Speaker 3: show today.

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Speaker 1: I'm not helping you with that. Now, that's not what

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Speaker 1: I'm here for.

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Speaker 3: You are here to tell us all the gooey details

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Speaker 3: about rabies. So what is Rabi's anyway, other than a

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Speaker 3: reason for cartoon dogs to froth at the mouth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So Rabi's is a viral disease that we think

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Speaker 2: has been plaguing us for at least four thousand years.

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Speaker 2: There are these four thousand year old tablets that we

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Speaker 2: found in Iraq that has a law written on it

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Speaker 2: that essentially says if a dog becomes rabid and the

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Speaker 2: ward authority makes that known to its owner, but he

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Speaker 2: does not watch over his dog so that it bites

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Speaker 2: a man and it causes his death, the owner of

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Speaker 2: the dog shall pay forty shekels of silver. If it

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Speaker 2: bites a slave and causes his death, he shall pay

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Speaker 2: fifteen shekels of silver.

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Speaker 3: Kelly, I love your old testament audiobook voice. That's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Well, here you could see that for four thousand years,

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Speaker 2: we've been putting dollar values on the value of human

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Speaker 2: or che values on the value of human life, and

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Speaker 2: we have been ranking the value of human beings. Not

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Speaker 2: not a good look for humanity. But the point is

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Speaker 2: Rabi's has been, you know, a thing that we have

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Speaker 2: been aware of for a really long time.

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Speaker 3: But in this case, is the word rabbit obviously a

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Speaker 3: translation describing behavior of a dog or was it already

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Speaker 3: understood that the dogs were ill and that's where the

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Speaker 3: word rabbit comes from.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So I was listening to,

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Speaker 2: you know, to research this. I was listening to a

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Speaker 2: bunch of different like history podcast, veterinarian podcast, blah blah blah,

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Speaker 2: and almost everybody referenced this story. But I was able

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Speaker 2: to find a like, you know, history reference that was

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Speaker 2: dealing with this exact quote, and it said that another translation,

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Speaker 2: instead of translating it as rabbit, translated it as like

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Speaker 2: furious or angry. So like, is it really saying if

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Speaker 2: your dog is a jerk and we tell you your dog's

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Speaker 2: a jerk and you need to like chain that dog up,

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Speaker 2: you know we're gonna we're gonna find you if that

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Speaker 2: dog bites somebody. But references from the same time period

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Speaker 2: note that it's it seems to be that people recognize

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Speaker 2: that it is saliva that is transmitting something that will

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Speaker 2: kill people. So it suggests to me that they do

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Speaker 2: recognize that there is some disease that is being passed

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Speaker 2: by the dog through a bite and saliva has something

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Speaker 2: to do with it, which sounds like it's not just

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Speaker 2: there's a dog that's angry, and they realize some dogs

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Speaker 2: are jerks and jerks should be tied up. They actually

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Speaker 2: recognize that some dogs carry diseases and those diseases get transmitted.

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Speaker 3: Before we understood the microbiology of it all. Of course, yes,

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Speaker 3: I'm noting that the Oxford English Dictionary says that the

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Speaker 3: earliest use of the word rabbit is from the late

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Speaker 3: fifteen hundreds by George Chapman, and so obviously the Iraqis

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Speaker 3: didn't use the word rabbit itself, but the idea is

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Speaker 3: translated to the modern word rabbit. Fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And if you look throughout time, you know,

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Speaker 2: from four thousand years ago onwards, there are lots of

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Speaker 2: different cultures who have things where you're like, oh, it

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Speaker 2: really sounds like they're talking about rabbit animals from the

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Speaker 2: point that dogs were domesticated onwards.

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Speaker 3: That was my other question is this a disease that

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Speaker 3: arises because of the mystification urbanization of civilization, the way

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Speaker 3: many diseases come from, like you know, animals in close

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Speaker 3: quarters or is this something that existed and exists among

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Speaker 3: like wild wolves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great question.

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Speaker 2: This is a disease that exists in the wild and

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Speaker 2: has probably existed in the wild long before animal domestications. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, in the United States, it's very common in bats, skunks, raccoons,

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Speaker 2: and foxes. You can find it in coyotes sometimes also,

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Speaker 2: so it's in a lot of wildlife. It happens to

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Speaker 2: also do really well in dogs when they aren't vaccinated,

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Speaker 2: and so when we started living with dogs, we were

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Speaker 2: bringing it closer to us and in contact with us

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Speaker 2: more often. But this is definitely something that you could

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Speaker 2: have gotten from wild animals, for example, when you were

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Speaker 2: hunting before that.

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Speaker 3: I see. So if it's an ancient disease, there must

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Speaker 3: be a lot of hilarious ancient treatments for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So hair the dog was one of them.

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Speaker 2: Another one that I came across was you would take

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Speaker 2: a rooster, you would pull the feathers off of the

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Speaker 2: roosters anus and.

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Speaker 3: It's still alive while you're doing that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'll note it's actually you know, it's

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Speaker 2: called an anus, but it's actually a cloaca, which is

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Speaker 2: a word for sewer, because for chickens, everything comes out

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Speaker 2: of the same hole. But anyway, and then you would

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Speaker 2: put it on the bite, and if the anus swelled up,

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Speaker 2: you could assume that like the poison had been sucked

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Speaker 2: out by the anus.

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Speaker 1: This did not.

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Speaker 3: Workit what do you put on the bite, the feathers or.

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Speaker 1: The anis the anus? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, I totally misunderstood that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And so now maybe you have like whatever

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Speaker 2: bacteria was on the chicken's butt in your wound, which

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Speaker 2: doesn't sound good.

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Speaker 3: How long do you have to have the chicken butt

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Speaker 3: on your wound?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: As long as it takes for it to swell up,

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Speaker 2: I guess, I don't know. And there was another one that,

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Speaker 2: unfortunately was like, oh, if the dog bit you, you have

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Speaker 2: to like take some of the dog's brain and put

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Speaker 2: that in the wound. And so like, if you didn't

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Speaker 2: have rabies before, you probably have rabies now. Yeah, So

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Speaker 2: that's unfortunate, But some of these methods probably seemed to

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Speaker 2: work because First of all, not every angry animal that

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Speaker 2: bites you has rabies, and so maybe you get bit

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Speaker 2: you tried the thing, you don't get rabies in your Like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's great that you know the chicken butt thing worked,

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Speaker 2: but like you weren't gonna get rabies anyway, because that

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Speaker 2: dog was just a jerk. It didn't have rabies. And

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Speaker 2: not every bite or scratch actually probably has enough rabies

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Speaker 2: virus in it to give you rabies.

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Speaker 3: These are not randomized controlled trials. They're very hard to

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Speaker 3: interpret it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, right, right, yeah, so but I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: you can laugh and be like, oh ha haha, what idiots,

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Speaker 2: How could they ever think the chicken butt thing would work?

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Speaker 2: But you know, there were probably a couple instances where

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Speaker 2: they were like, hey, you know, Fred got bit by

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Speaker 2: a dog and then he didn't get rabies after he

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Speaker 2: did the chicken butt thing, and you could be like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's worth a.

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Speaker 3: Shot anytime something good happens after a human does something weird,

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Speaker 3: and you like create some mythology and you're like, better

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Speaker 3: put a chicken butt on your wrist before you go

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Speaker 3: outside if you want gold to fall from the tree

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Speaker 3: or whatever. It's amazing how these things just reinforce themselves.

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Speaker 3: We are like bad at statistics natively.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, what's the downside, right? I guess if

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Speaker 2: you ask the chicken, there'd be a pretty clear down sta. Wow.

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Speaker 3: You know, I haven't been to Virginia in a while,

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Speaker 3: but the culture there has really gone up the deep end.

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Speaker 2: We got rid of our chickens, so we're not so

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Speaker 2: into that kind of stuff, but.

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Speaker 3: Got rid of Wow.

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Speaker 1: Well, we gave them to our brother and sister in law.

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Speaker 3: I see.

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Speaker 2: We had enough gold falling from the sky after doing

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Speaker 2: the chicken butt thing, so we moved on.

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Speaker 3: As one does. Yeah. Yeah, So rabies is a disease.

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Speaker 3: What does it cost?

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Speaker 2: By you said it's a virus, it's a virus, and

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Speaker 2: in the United States we are pretty lucky. This virus

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Speaker 2: is not something humans need to worry about so much.

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Speaker 2: So about less than ten people in the United States

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Speaker 2: die from rabies every year.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's pretty good odds.

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Speaker 3: It's like fewer than shark attacks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I guess I don't actually know how many

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Speaker 2: shark attacks there are, but that sounds about right.

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Speaker 3: It's close to shark attacks or like struck by lightning

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Speaker 3: or something. It's like, that's very rare.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, super rare.

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Speaker 2: But about one hundred thousand people every year are vaccinated

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Speaker 2: after they have a potential rabies exposure, and so these

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Speaker 2: are probably people like veterinarians who had a stray cat

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Speaker 2: brought in that then went on to bite them, animal

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Speaker 2: control people who had to go out and get an

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Speaker 2: animal that was presumed to be rabid something like that.

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Speaker 2: So there are a lot of people exposed to animals

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Speaker 2: that might be rabid. But because we have great control

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Speaker 2: measures in great vaccines, very few people die from.

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Speaker 3: This, right, And those two numbers are closely linked, right,

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Speaker 3: It's not like, why are we doing this? Hardly anybody dies,

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh, we're not feeling the rain because we're

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Speaker 3: holding an umbrella. The reason few people die is because

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Speaker 3: we vaccinate people, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's not true around the world. So globally,

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Speaker 2: sixty thousand people die of rabies every year, and this

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Speaker 2: is considered a neglected tropical disease because there are parts

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Speaker 2: of the world that can't afford vaccines or can't handle

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Speaker 2: the kinds of mass vaccination efforts. You need to keep

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Speaker 2: cats and dogs that are around people vaccinated year after year,

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Speaker 2: and so we are very lucky science has a solution

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Speaker 2: to this. And in the United States we have the

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Speaker 2: infrastructure and the money to make sure it gets where

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Speaker 2: it needs to go. But in other parts of the

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Speaker 2: world that's not the case.

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Speaker 3: So we vaccinate all the pets, and then humans, if

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Speaker 3: they've been exposed, we vaccinate them. We don't use vaccinate

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Speaker 3: humans across the board.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it depends on who you are.

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Speaker 2: So we have a vaccine that you can give to

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Speaker 2: people who are likely to get exposed. So if you

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Speaker 2: are a veterinarian, you probably get a prophylactic vaccine. Veterinarians

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Speaker 2: get it. VET texts get it. People who work in

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Speaker 2: animal control get it. If you like to go spelunking,

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Speaker 2: I think in the United Kingdom this is called potholing.

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Speaker 1: What yeah, yeah, let's go.

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Speaker 3: For an afternoon in that pothole that nobody ever.

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Speaker 2: Well, unless you're in the UK, said plenty of UK people,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: And the idea there is that caves.

400
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Speaker 2: Are places where you find a lot of bats, and

401
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 2: bats could be spreading rabies either through bites or through

402
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 2: you know, like saliva. You could breathe it in in

403
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 2: an aerosolized sort of way. If you're a hunter, you

404
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,399
Speaker 2: might want to consider getting vaccinated, depending on what kind

405
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 2: of animals you're going after, because when you are skinning

406
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 2: those animals, if you have a cut, you can maybe

407
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 2: get some stuff in that cut that could transmit rabies

408
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,359
Speaker 2: to you. So there are certain activities that can increase

409
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Speaker 2: your risk, and you are able to get vaccinated for

410
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 2: rabies ahead of time. And then if you engage in

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Speaker 2: another behavior where you think, okay, this time, I was

412
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Speaker 2: definitely exposed to rabies, you'll go in and get some

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Speaker 2: more vaccines to boost your immunity.

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Speaker 3: And what kind of infrastructure is required is raby is

415
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 3: one of the vaccines that needs to be chilled, and

416
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,240
Speaker 3: it's really complicated and that's why it's not easily available everywhere.

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00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the way that we make this vaccine now,

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Speaker 2: and we can talk about the history of the vaccine later,

419
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Speaker 2: but the way that we make the vaccine now is

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Speaker 2: we essentially grow it in human cells in the lab,

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00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 2: or we can grow it in like chicken embryos in

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00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 2: the lab. Either way, we're not like growing this in

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00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 2: live animals or anything like that. You extract the virus

424
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,360
Speaker 2: you kill it and then you suspend it, and it

425
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Speaker 2: is kind of expensive.

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Speaker 1: That is part of it.

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Speaker 2: But I think a bigger problem with the vaccine is

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Speaker 2: that this vaccine does have some side effects. So for example,

429
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Speaker 2: some people will have a reaction called anaphylaxis where you

430
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Speaker 2: have trouble breathing. Some people will have like an allergic

431
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 2: sort of response to it. The rate of these reactions

432
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Speaker 2: is pretty low. And what you really need to know

433
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Speaker 2: here is that once you start showing symptoms for rabies,

434
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Speaker 2: you are nearly one hundred percent sure to die from rabies.

435
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Speaker 3: Oh wow.

436
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Speaker 2: And so if you are exposed to an animal that

437
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Speaker 2: has rabies, the risk of any of these issues pales

438
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 2: in comparison to your risk of dying of rabies, And

439
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: so you are definitely going to go ahead and get

440
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Speaker 2: the vaccine.

441
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 3: I see. Okay, so this is not the kind of

442
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 3: vaccine you just give everybody because there are side effects,

443
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 3: But if you've been exposed, then it's definitely a gamble

444
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 3: we're taking.

445
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 2: Yes, right, So between the costs and the potential side effects,

446
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 2: we don't want to go and vaccinate everyone, especially because

447
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 2: in the United States, most of us probably are not

448
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 2: going to encounter a rabit animal. So it seems not

449
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 2: worth the risk, but for people in risky professions it

450
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: might be.

451
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 3: So I was surprised by what you said earlier about exposure,

452
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 3: Like just going for a hike in a cave where

453
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 3: there are bats that have rabies might be enough, like aerosolized.

454
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,200
Speaker 3: I thought you had to get bitten by some cartoon animal.

455
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

456
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: Well, so let's take a break, and when we come

457
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: back from the break, we'll go through the various ways

458
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: that you can get infected by rabies.

459
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 3: Okay, we're back, and we are taking a bite out

460
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 3: of rabies today, furiously understanding the nature of this disease.

461
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 3: So tell us, Kelly, how does one get exposed to

462
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 3: Arabi's What do we have to watch out for spelunkers

463
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 3: and potholers alike.

464
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 2: Well, the most common way, let's start with the most

465
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 2: common way that you get exposed to rabies, and that's

466
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: through bites and scratches from rabbit animals. And in the

467
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: United States, the most common way you're going to get

468
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: exposed to a bite or a scratch from a rabbit

469
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 2: animal is by interacting with a bat. So, if you

470
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,719
Speaker 2: are in the sort of unlucky situation where a bat

471
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 2: accidentally ends up in your house and you that bat

472
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: bite you when it's trying to get out, or you

473
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: wake up in the middle of the night and there's

474
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 2: a bat in your room.

475
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: What, Kelly, you can just drop.

476
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 2: That that has happened to me. I know, I know,

477
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: I didn't know at the time, but you might in

478
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 2: those situations might want to call a medical professional to

479
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 2: be like, I found a bat in my room. I

480
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 2: was listening to a podcast of people who are studying

481
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 2: for their medical boards, and they noted that in that instant,

482
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: you're supposed to give people vaccines for rabies because you

483
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 2: can't be sure they didn't get bitten while they were sleeping.

484
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, man, I didn't call anyone

485
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: when that happened. I just like opened the window and

486
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: shoot the bat out. But anyway, I'm still here, so

487
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: that's good news.

488
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 3: Does the fact that that happen is that the origin

489
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: of like vampire myths like vampires fly in on the

490
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 3: wings of a bat, bite you and then fly out again.

491
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 2: Could be But there are also like vampire bats that

492
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: actually suck human blood when they have trouble getting access

493
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: to other mammals.

494
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: Oh boy, I'm guessing that.

495
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 3: So you could wake up in the middle of the

496
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: night with a bat on your face or what else.

497
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 2: But we hope not, but you could also, So if

498
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: that animal bites you, it's saliva gets into your body,

499
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 2: and that's one way that the rabies virus can get

500
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: into you. Also, if an animal scratches you, you know,

501
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: maybe they like licked their hand and then they scratch you,

502
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: and that gets the virus in your body. That's skunks, raccoons,

503
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: and foxes, which we talked about already. In the United States,

504
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: those are animals that are most frequently found to have rabies.

505
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that most of those animals in the

506
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 2: wild have rabies, but in the United States, the animals

507
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: that are most likely to have rabies are those four

508
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 2: kinds of animals.

509
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 3: And these rabies a kind of virus that doesn't last

510
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 3: very long in saliva outside the body. Like if a

511
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 3: bat spits on a rock and then you lick that

512
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: rock like a week later, are you okay or is

513
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 3: that rock like dangerous forever?

514
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

515
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 2: Right, that is a question only Daniel would ask, and

516
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: that is uh and you would probably be fine. And

517
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: I'm under the impression that that is why I was

518
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 2: told I didn't need to get a rabies vaccine when

519
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 2: I picked up that dead bat. I think they were like,

520
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: the bat's probably been long dead, you're probably fine.

521
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: Fascinating. It's amazing to me when viruses are so fragile

522
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: and yet so able to spread anyway, It's incredible.

523
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: It is, it is, And I just want to really

524
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 2: highlight here. I am not a medical doctor. So if

525
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, Kelly said that bat had been dead

526
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 2: for a while that she touched, so I don't need

527
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: to call the dot.

528
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: Always call the doctor.

529
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: If you have any question about rabies, if you've been

530
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,719
Speaker 2: exposed to anything that puts you at risk of rabies,

531
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: call your doctor.

532
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: And I don't suggest licking any rocks. I'm also not

533
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 3: a medical professional.

534
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, Actually, you should probably never do anything

535
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 2: Daniel suggests.

536
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: It's just a bad idea.

537
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 3: I keep telling my kids that also, yeah.

538
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well so, And if you live in Africa

539
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: and Asia, you're most likely to get rabies from dog bites.

540
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: People encounter dogs a lot.

541
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: There's in a lot of countries there's not good programs

542
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: to regularly vaccinate dogs, and unfortunately, the majority of the

543
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: bites happened to children who just want to pet a

544
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: dog and then they get oh I know, and so yeah,

545
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: so saliva from rabbit animals is the most common way. Now,

546
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: it's worth noting that livestock animals like horses can also

547
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 2: get rabies, and so you want to be careful and

548
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: vaccinate as many animals as you're able to. Very rarely,

549
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: the virus can be aerosolized for short periods of time,

550
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: and so that's why you know, if you're spelunking or

551
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 2: potholing in a cave and there's a bunch of bats

552
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: and there's not a lot of sunlight in there, so

553
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: sunlight is something that kills the rabies virus pretty quickly.

554
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: You might be able to breathe in some of the

555
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: rabies virus, and that is why sometimes spelunkers will get vaccinated,

556
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: or if they're going into an area with a lot

557
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: of bats and they're worried they're going to get bit

558
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 2: then they'll get vaccinated as well. And a very rare

559
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 2: way that does sometimes result in rabies is organ transplants.

560
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: If it was missed that a donor had rabies, and

561
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: then you can transmit it that way again, very rare.

562
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: We talked about that in the opening.

563
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: So there's no way to get rabies by like listening

564
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 3: to a podcast about rabies.

565
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 2: Our listeners are saying, that's right, that's right, and you know,

566
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: I actually I feel like the more you learn about

567
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff, like, yes, it's scary initially, but

568
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 2: once you understand how it's transmitted, you can say, Okay,

569
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: I know what I need to worry about, and then

570
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: I know when I need to call a medical professional. Yes,

571
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: I still worry because I am me, but I feel like,

572
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: you know, the scope of my worrying has narrowed a

573
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: little bit because now I understand when I need to

574
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: worry and why I need to worry, and I feel

575
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: like that gives me a little bit of control over

576
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 2: the situation.

577
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, although you know, statistics doesn't help anxiety. I mean,

578
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 3: you can look at the numbers and be like, well,

579
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: on average, that's pretty rare. It doesn't happen to very

580
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 3: many people, these terrible scenarios, et cetera, et cetera. On

581
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: the other hand, you're like, yeah, but there are ten

582
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: people out there who do die raby's every year, and

583
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 3: those are real people. Who also looked at the numbers

584
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 3: and they were like, yeah, I'll probably be fine. So

585
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: the sort of two ways to look at it, from

586
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: a public health perspective on average, and then also from

587
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: the like, am I that one outlier case perspective, which

588
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 3: is the one I always use as a worrier?

589
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I do see your point.

590
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 2: But like so in the intro, we talked about a

591
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: guy who got scratched by a skunk and bled. Presumably

592
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: what he thought was it's just a scratch. I probably

593
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 2: didn't get it, and I think this skunk was just

594
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: trying to eat the kitten and wasn't actually rabid, And

595
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: so they made some choices that if you knew enough

596
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: about rabies, or if you were enough of a warrior, yeah,

597
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 2: could have caused that person to have made a different

598
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: decision to at least call the doctor and been like,

599
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: I don't know, what do you think I got scratched

600
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: by a skunk that was angry and was willing to

601
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: approach me to try to eat a kitten.

602
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: What would you do?

603
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: I suspect that doctor would have said, we're gonna go

604
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: ahead and give you some shots, because rabies is one

605
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: hundred percent fatal, So let's not take any risks.

606
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, although if you are a worrier and you want

607
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: to be informed by statistics, as you just suggested, then

608
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 3: you would be shocked at like how dangerous it is

609
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: to drive anywhere and you should probably just never get

610
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: in a car, and how dangerous household accidents are, so

611
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 3: you shouldn't, for example, try to do your kitchen by yourself.

612
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: But we don't want Kelly to become a shut in.

613
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: So we're going to talk about what happens once the

614
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: virus gets in your body. Daniel, what are you trying

615
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: to do here?

616
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 3: I'm just saying statistics and formed decisions are not the

617
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 3: way we live our lives.

618
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, you're right.

619
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: But anyway, tell us about the microbiology here. What happens

620
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: when the virus gets in your body? Killing?

621
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 2: All right, So the virus gets in your body and

622
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: it gets into your muscle tissue. And what we've talked

623
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: about how viruses replicate. They essentially hijack the machinery inside

624
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: your cell, and they tell the cell that it needs

625
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: to start replicating the virus' genetic material and start making

626
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: proteins for the virus. So it essentially the cell becomes

627
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: like a little factory that starts making more viruses, and

628
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: then it spits the viruses out and the viruses go

629
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: out to infect more cells.

630
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: So that's generally how viruses work.

631
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: If this sounds familiar to you, reminiscent of how like

632
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 3: computer viruses work, that's not an accident. That's why they

633
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: call computer viruses viruses, not the other way around. Biological

634
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: viruses didn't steal this idea from hackers.

635
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: Yes, and keep that in your head because we're gonna

636
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: come back to that comparison a little bit later, all right.

637
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: So it starts by getting into like muscle tissue near

638
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: the site of the bite, and for reasons we don't

639
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: totally understand, it has the period where it replicates sort

640
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: of slowly in those muscle tissues. And thank goodness for that,

641
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: because that means there's a period where we can sort

642
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: of get a leg up on the virus. And this

643
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: is why we're able to give people a vaccine after

644
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: they get bitten that can still save their life. And

645
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: this is another part of why we don't need to

646
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: mass vaccinate everybody, because it still works if you just

647
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: give it to someone afterwards, which doesn't work quite as

648
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: well with some other things that we vaccinate against.

649
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: That seems pretty unusual. Right, In almost all cases you

650
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: have to vaccinate first for it to take.

651
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: Effect, right, Yeah, No, we are amazingly lucky that this

652
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: virus has this period where it like sort of sluggishly

653
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: replicates and muscles for a while before it starts heading

654
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 2: for the nervous system. But eventually it will start finding

655
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: nervous system cells and it will start following nerves to

656
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: your spinal cord and then start moving up to your brain.

657
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: And when it starts getting towards its final location, you

658
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: are going to start getting symptoms like fever, flu like stuff,

659
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: gastrointestinal symptoms, and sort of eerily, the location that you

660
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: got bit will start like tingling or having a prickly sensation.

661
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: And the reason that's eerie is that this is usually

662
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 2: happening about two months after your exposure to the virus,

663
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: so that site has like long since healed, and now

664
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're starting to feel tingling there again.

665
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: By the time you start having these symptoms, which again

666
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: like take two months for the virus to go from

667
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: that bite site up to the point where you know,

668
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: essentially it's too late. When you start getting those symptoms.

669
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: There's more or less no way to stop the virus

670
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: at that point. It's in your central nervous system, and

671
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: we don't have good treatments for it.

672
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: At that point.

673
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: Rabies enters one of two forms, the furious form, which

674
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: is about eighty percent of the cases. Average survival time

675
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: for this is about six days. Symptoms include like you

676
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: kind of come in and out of consciousness of strangely,

677
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: you become very afraid of water. So this is called hydrophobia.

678
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: There are some videos online that I've got to admit

679
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: I don't recommend looking up. I watched them once a

680
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, and they're just incredibly upsetting to watch.

681
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: But you know, someone will try to take a drink

682
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: of water because they're very thirsty, but they'll start having

683
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 2: these like gagging reflexes, and it's like they're really afraid

684
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: of the water and they, you know, kind of can't

685
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: figure out why. You know, it's like they're be you know,

686
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: they like they've been hijacked, which essentially, you know, their

687
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: brains have been They start to hallucinate.

688
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: And so help me understand what's happening here. This is

689
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 3: all due to brain inflammation as the immune system responds

690
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: to the rabies, or is this something rabies is doing

691
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 3: to your brain directly.

692
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: So one of the interesting things about doing the research

694
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 2: for this is that places like the World Health Organization

695
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: say that there's a bunch of inflammation in the brain

696
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: and that death occurs due to cardio respiratory arrest and

697
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: you know, you go into coma and essentially things shut down.

698
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: But other sources that I read were like, the surprisingly

699
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: little inflammation happening in some of these cases, And so

700
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: we seem a little bit confused. It looks like there's

701
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: or maybe not confused, but maybe there's a couple different

702
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: ways that rabies can lead to death. It seems like

703
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: there's a couple different competing hypotheses. It might depend on

704
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: exactly what rabies is doing. It seems to take a

705
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: couple different forms, and maybe it depends on what part

706
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: of the brain the rabies ends up in. And in

707
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: just a second, we're going to talk about a hypothesis

708
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: that relies on there not being inflammation in the brain.

709
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: So hold that thought for just a second. We will

710
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: circle back to that there's another form of rabies that

711
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: happens about twenty percent of the time called paralytic. We're

712
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: essentially starting at the scratch or bite site. The muscles

713
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: start to become essentially paralyzed, and that gradually spreads over

714
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: the course of the body, and over about eleven days,

715
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: the person tends to go into a coma and they die.

716
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: This form tends to be misdiagnosed as a bunch of

717
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: other things, so it might be underreported. But one way

718
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: or another, a rabi's death is really an unpleasant death,

719
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: and we don't have a really good way of treating

720
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: people once symptoms start showing.

721
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: But you may remember around two.

722
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: Thousand and four, long time ago, there was in the

723
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: news this Milwaukee protocol where a young girl who started

724
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: showing symptoms of rabies was brought back from rabies.

725
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: Do you remember hearing about this?

726
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: No, tell me, Okay, So there was this girl who

727
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: was at church and there was a bat flying around

728
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: the church and it like was trying to get out

729
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: the window, but it couldn't get out the window. I

730
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: think somebody hit it with a broom and it kind

731
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: of fell down and the girl was trying to help,

732
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: and so she like picked it up and kind of

733
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: tried to fling it out the window and it bit

734
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: her on the way out, but she didn't think anything

735
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: of it. She didn't end up going to see a

736
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: medical professional to get the rabies vaccine or anything. And

737
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: like weeks later she started like going down the tube.

738
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: You know, all of your stories here, which aren't very dramatic,

739
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: are also substantiating a lot of mythology. You got like

740
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: bats in bedrooms, now you've got bats in belfrieze. Maybe

741
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: these cartoons were accurate. I don't know, maybe, So what

742
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: happened to this girl?

743
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, so she started showing a bunch of symptoms

744
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: and the doctors just like could not figure out what

745
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: was happening. And her mom at one point, like, you know,

746
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: she was having a chat with the pediatrician and her

747
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 2: mom thought to mention, like, maybe it was that bat.

748
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: There was there was a bat that bit her, And

749
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: I guess the pediatrician like just went pale when the

750
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: mom said something about like, oh, there was the bat

751
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: that bit her, And the pediatrician was like, ah, I'll

752
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 2: be right back and made a phone call and it

753
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: was confirmed pretty soon after that it was rabies, and

754
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 2: I know, and so they talked to this other doctor

755
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: and I listened to an interview with the doctor and

756
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: the doctor was like, okay. So while we were waiting

757
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: for the results, I started going through a bunch of

758
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: case reports for rabies, and there were a bunch of

759
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: folks who were saying that actually, surprisingly, a bunch of

760
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: brains didn't show evidence of massive inflammation. The brains looked

761
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: pretty good, even in people who were dead. So if

762
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 2: you do an autopsy, it was kind of amazing how

763
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 2: good the brain looked. And so there were some folks

764
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: who were guessing that actually, what was happening wasn't that

765
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: the virus was like smashing the brain to pieces, like

766
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: you know, I know, the brain gets compared to a

767
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: computer a lot, and that metaphor falls down in a

768
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: lot of ways. But we're going to go with it here.

769
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 2: We're going to go with the computer and the virus metaphor.

770
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: You know, it's not like the virus is smashing the

771
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: computer with a bat and totally destroying it. It's more

772
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: like the virus is messing up the way the computer

773
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: communicates with the different parts of the computer, and it's

774
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: sort of messing up the way that it, you know,

775
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: runs and so what if you could essentially put somebody

776
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: on life support to get them through a period where

777
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 2: the immune system has a chance to catch up. Because

778
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: some other autopsies found that there wasn't a lot of

779
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 2: virus left in the brain, which suggested that the immune

780
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: system was starting to catch up, but it just didn't

781
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: have enough time.

782
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, if.

783
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: You could get someone through then you know, maybe their

784
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: immune system would catch up and they'd be okay. So

785
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: they ended up putting this girl in a chemical induced

786
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: coma and they put her on life support, so her

787
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: brain didn't have to worry about, you know, breathing or

788
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: you know, making her heartbeat or anything like that. That

789
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: was all done with machines, and amazingly she lived.

790
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 3: How does going into a coma help the immune system

791
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 3: catch up? Why does the coma slow down the virus

792
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 3: but not the immune system.

793
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: As far as I understand it, it's not that it's

794
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: slowing anything down. It's just that the brain no longer

795
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: has to worry about keeping the girl alive. That's all

796
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: being done by a machine. And so even if the

797
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: brain is no longer like communicating like it's supposed to,

798
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: that's okay. Machines are taking care of all of that,

799
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 2: so the immune system can just have the time that

800
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: it needs to catch up. Oh, I see, the machines

801
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: are playing the role of the brain until the brain

802
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: is cleared of the virus, and without the virus, the

803
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: brain will start acting normal again. And I guess his

804
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: biggest fear was that she might end up with like

805
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: locked in syndrome, where she would sort of never quite

806
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: be the same again, or never be able to communicate again,

807
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: but she'd still be kind of locked inside of there.

808
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: But she ended up making an almost complete recovery.

809
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 3: Wow.

810
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 2: And so this was heralded as maybe we finally figured

811
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: out a way to save people from rabies. And this

812
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: made the news and was absolutely huge. But in the

813
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: approximately twenty years since.

814
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 3: Here comes Kelly's wet blanket.

815
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, of course, right, how could it be

816
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: any other way? Loads of attempts have been made using

817
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: this protocol, and now you see papers called things like

818
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: the demise of the Milwaukee protocol because it doesn't seem

819
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: to work in most cases. And it looks like the

820
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: girl for which this worked, her immune system had started

821
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: making some antibodies to rabies pretty early on. And we're

822
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: not quite sure why. It looks like maybe there's some

823
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: variability some people. I don't know, maybe she got exposed

824
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: to something Raybi's ish early in her life, Like there's

825
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: some subset of people who just seemed to be able

826
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: to mount a quick response, and maybe she just was

827
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: one of those people, and putting her on life support

828
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: might have given her a little bit of an edge.

829
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: But it looks like it just doesn't help the majority

830
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: of people. And so it's possible that this protocol takes

831
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: the probability of death one symptoms for Raby's start and

832
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: brings it from one hundred percent to like ninety nine

833
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: point five percent. And I guess I'll be honest, if

834
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: if my kids got rabies and they were like, what

835
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: do you think about going to extraordinary measures to increase

836
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 2: their probability by point five percent, I'd be like, yess

837
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: that button, Yeah, yeah, I don't have to think about that.

838
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: Let's do it.

839
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: But you know the problem is, you know this is

840
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 2: going to come up like maybe ten times a year

841
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: in the United States, and for those families, no doubt,

842
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: you know that would be important to have some options.

843
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: But in areas, you know, the areas where you're getting

844
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: those sixty thousand cases of raby's death. It's not really

845
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: feasible to do these kind of procedures. It's not even

846
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: feasible in a lot of cases to have vaccine.

847
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 1: Available for these people.

848
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: And so, you know, I think if if in general

849
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 2: we're worried about trying to reduce the number of people

850
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: who die globally from this disease, what we want to

851
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: be focusing on is getting vaccines, you know, affordable and

852
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: distributed throughout the world. So there's some people still working

853
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: on tinkering with this protocol. Hopefully this can be used

854
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: to bring the numbers of rabies deaths to zero, but

855
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who don't believe in this

856
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: technique anymore. And Kelly has wet blanketed her way through

857
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: segment two, and it is time for a break, and

858
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: when we come back, we'll talk about the history of

859
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: the rabies vaccine.

860
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: All right, we're back and we're talking about Raebi's today, Kelly,

861
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 3: we ended the last segment with a little bit of

862
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 3: a wet blanket about the prospects for surviving rabies. So

863
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: let's make everybody feel good by talking about another glorious

864
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 3: story of vac development, science in action, saving lives. How

865
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 3: did this all happen? When did we get started trying

866
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 3: to make a vaccine against rape's?

867
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: Okay, yay, science all right.

868
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: So around the early eighteen hundreds, we started to figure

869
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: out that saliva was important for transmitting the virus from

870
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: organism to organism, and that was important because that meant

871
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: we could start keeping this virus in labs and in

872
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: lab animals. And if you are not comfortable with animal research,

873
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: you might want to skip the last part of this episode.

874
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: So Louis Pastor starts working in his lab in the

875
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: eighteen eighties and they decide that they're going to tackle

876
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: a rabies vaccine. They had already developed two different vaccines.

877
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: One was for foul cholera. I didn't realize that chickens

878
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: got cholera, but you know, maybe that's because we've got

879
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: a vaccine for it now, and another for anthrax. So

880
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: there were some other vaccines. They had experience with that.

881
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: And at the same time, Emil Roux, do you know

882
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: how to say that, Daniel?

883
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 3: I think you said that correctly.

884
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: Yes, nice, all right. Emil ru had developed a technique

885
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 2: for inoculating dogs with rabies.

886
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 3: You could start with butter and flour all mixed together

887
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 3: into a thick sauce.

888
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: That was a food joke, of course, a delicious food joke.

889
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 3: Everything delicious starts with the rue. That's what I learned.

890
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm not going to go into too many

891
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: details because what it involved was much less appetizing than that.

892
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: But but he found a way to keep a series

893
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: of animals with rabies in the lab and a technique

894
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: for starting to dry out the virus. As you noted earlier,

895
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: if the virus dries out, it sort of stops being

896
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: able to infect people. And actually, we had a series

897
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: of really great questions from the Extraordinaries where they sent

898
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: us emails and they're like, well, in the polio episode,

899
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: you were saying that there was a live virus version

900
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 2: and a dead virus version, but then in another episode

901
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: you told us that viruses aren't even alive. So what

902
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 2: do you mean by that?

903
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 3: Good question?

904
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: Yes, such a fantastic question got me to rethink, you know,

905
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 2: the way I was explaining it, in the way it

906
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 2: gets explained in like the you know, literature in general.

907
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: So I think essentially what it means is like viruses

908
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: are able to infect you, but if you mess them

909
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: up a little bit, they lose some function that allows

910
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: them to infect you. And one way that you can

911
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: mess up the rabies virus is by drying it out.

912
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: And whether we understand what's happened to the virus or not,

913
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: once you've dried it out a little bit, something that

914
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: it was able to do before it now can't do.

915
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 2: So it can't complete the process of getting into one

916
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 2: of your cells, forcing your cells to make copies of it,

917
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: and then getting out of the cell so that it

918
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: can go and infect additional cells. Something about that no

919
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: longer works when it gets dried out. But the virus

920
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: still looks virus enough, like enough of it is still

921
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: sort of like present to be recognizable by your immune system,

922
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 2: so your immune system can produce antibodies so that the

923
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: next time it sees it it can attack it. Does

924
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 2: that make sense, Yeah, that makes sense?

925
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: Okay.

926
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 2: So emil Rue had figured out how you can keep

927
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: animals in the lab with rabies and how you can

928
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: start drying out parts of these animals after you euthanize them.

929
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 2: They call it attenuating the virus, so essentially start making

930
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: it so that the virus can't infect people as well anymore.

931
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: And I mentioned this just because Pasteur often seems to

932
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: get credit for like coming up with the rabies vaccine,

933
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: as though nobody had done any prior work at all.

934
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 2: But just like just about all scientific advances, he was

935
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 2: building on the work that other people were doing at

936
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: the time. Okay, So Pastor gets to work and he

937
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: starts working in rabbits, because working with rabbid dogs is

938
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: probably absolutely petrifying, and working with rabid rabbits is probably

939
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: much less petrifying. And so he creates a series of

940
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 2: rabbits that have rabies. He works on the system where

941
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 2: essentially he takes out the rabbit's nervous systems. He drives

942
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 2: them out for different lengths of time, and now he

943
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: essentially has virus that has been inactivated because he has

944
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 2: the nervous system cells that the rabbit had and he

945
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: has dried them out to kill the virus.

946
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 3: And how does a rabbit rabbit react? I mean, anybody

947
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: who has seen monty python, for example, knows.

948
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: To be terrifed.

949
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: Right then they can jump at your neck and they

950
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: know where the jugular.

951
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 3: Is, and you're like, oh, is that also medically accurate.

952
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably, Yeah. And you know the way the night

953
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: was able to survive with like no limbs. Yeah, that's

954
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: what pastor looks like.

955
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: When the experiments were done, I.

956
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: Would love to have been a science consultant for the

957
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: Monty python.

958
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, me too, Me too.

959
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: I read a variety of different sources, and I did

960
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: not find descriptions of how the rabbits were behaving. I

961
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: think they were much less interested in rabbit behavior and

962
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: much more interested in just accessing something they could use

963
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: for a vaccine. Sure, and so they actually were able

964
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 2: to show that if you gave a dog some of

965
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: this material from the rabbits that had been dried out,

966
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: and then you exposed the dog to rabies, a dog

967
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: would not get rabies. And so they were like, holy cow,

968
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: this vaccine thing seems to be working. This works in dogs,

969
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: but they were not ready to start testing it in people.

970
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: In June of eighteen eighty five, a child who was

971
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: already starting to show signs of rabies, which we've already

972
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: said it's too late at that point, was brought in.

973
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 2: They tried to give her the vaccine she passed away.

974
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: That didn't work. That wasn't a great sign, but they

975
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 2: kept doing the work. And then a little bit later,

976
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 2: in eighteen eighty five, a boy named Joseph Meister came in.

977
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: He was a nine year old boy. He was bit

978
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: by a rabid dog a bunch of times, like more

979
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 2: than ten times. This kid had initially been brought to

980
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 2: Emil ru who we talked about a little bit earlier,

981
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: and Emil was like, I do not feel comfortable giving

982
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 2: this kiddo the vaccine. He wasn't one hundred percent clear

983
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: about his reasons, but based on what he wrote in

984
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: other places, we think that it's because he was like, look,

985
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 2: I've tested it in dogs. My vaccine seems pretty good

986
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: in dogs, but I just don't feel comfortable giving it

987
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 2: to people yet it could be way too dangerous.

988
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a terrifying decision.

989
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 2: They have to make, yes, absolutely right, because you know,

990
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 2: if this kid was actually bitten by a rabbit dog,

991
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: you might be the only one who can save his life.

992
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: But if he was just bitten by some dog that's

993
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: a jerk, you might kill him with your vaccine. And

994
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 2: so he passed, but Pastor's lab decided to go for it.

995
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: Pasteor was a chemist so he couldn't do the injection.

996
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: But his colleague Jacques Joseph Grancher, why couldn't it just

997
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: be people with boring English names that make scientific advances.

998
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, but my apologies to the French speaking world. Anyway,

999
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: he administered the rabies vaccine they had been working on,

1000
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: and then he gave this kid twelve additional doses that

1001
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: had a vaccine that had been dried for less and

1002
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: less time, so essentially he gave him stronger and stronger

1003
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 2: versions of the virus each time, and this kid survived.

1004
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 2: He's the first person we know of to survive being

1005
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 2: exposed to rabies get a vaccine and now he lives,

1006
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: which is amazing. And then they pulled this trick off

1007
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: again a little bit later with a kid who was

1008
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: a shepherd. Around this point, they also had the first

1009
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: what we call prophylactic vaccine, which is where you get

1010
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: a vaccine before you get exposed. And this was essentially

1011
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 2: because while they were administering the vaccine, somebody accidentally injected

1012
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: themselves with the vaccine and they were like, well, now

1013
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: we're going to see how that goes.

1014
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 3: I guess now we know about that experiment.

1015
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: That's right, But that turned out okay, And so that

1016
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 2: was the start of our vaccine procedure with rabies. And

1017
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 2: then a bunch of labs around the world, you know,

1018
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 2: came to see how this worked, and they started growing

1019
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: you know, rabbits in their labs and trying this procedure,

1020
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 2: and then the rabies vaccine. You know, a bunch of

1021
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: different labs popped up around the world that produced these

1022
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: rabies vaccines and that's how it started.

1023
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: My favorite thing is when science can develop a treatment

1024
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 3: that helps save children's lives. You know, like how many

1025
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 3: children were bitten by dogs or scratched by dogs and

1026
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 3: then died a horrible, painful, excruciating death of rabies. Like

1027
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: anytime when we can reduce childhood suffering, ya, science, Yes, And.

1028
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 2: That's part of like why this story also makes me

1029
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 2: so upset because there are children dying around the world.

1030
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: In the tens of thousands.

1031
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah that shouldn't be because science has the solution, but

1032
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 2: we haven't found a way to get them access to it.

1033
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 3: It's a political or financial or an engineering issue.

1034
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, and that stinks when science has the answer

1035
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: and it's it's not getting to them. So let's let's

1036
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: go ahead and talk real quick about what happens today.

1037
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: We talked about.

1038
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: How if you have a job where you know you're

1039
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 2: going to get exposed regularly to animals that might have rabies,

1040
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 2: you can get the vaccine ahead of time. So the

1041
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 2: vaccine is grown up in cell cultures, so you don't

1042
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: need like whole humans. We just have figured out how

1043
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: to keep some subset of human cells alive in like

1044
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 2: a petri dish or some you know, chicken embryos alive.

1045
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: We grow up the virus in there, we extract the virus,

1046
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: we kill it, and then you get that vaccine. That's

1047
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: star it's giving you some immunity. Then if you subsequently

1048
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: get exposed to rabies, you'll get some boosters.

1049
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,919
Speaker 3: Wait, I just realized I didn't understand something basic. When

1050
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 3: my dog gets a rabies vaccine, it's not the same

1051
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: vaccine as I get. Is it. Is there a human

1052
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: in a dog version or is it the same thing.

1053
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: I did not do extra research on the dog version.

1054
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: I do know that there's a couple different versions of vaccines.

1055
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: So for example, sometimes if there's a lot of rabies

1056
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 2: in a wild population, they will put some vaccines in

1057
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: food and essentially drop the food from planes and like

1058
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: feed coyotes. And that is a totally different version than

1059
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 2: what humans get because it's way less regulated. And so

1060
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: I know that depending on what animal the vaccine is getting,

1061
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: there's different regulations, and so they can give different kinds

1062
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: of vaccines.

1063
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: But the same principle should apply, right, that if you

1064
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 3: have this weekend vaccine, it should help a dog's immune

1065
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: system or a human's immune system, even if those immune

1066
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 3: systems and the biology are different.

1067
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they might grow it up in dog

1068
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: cell cultures rather than human cell culture so that you

1069
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 2: don't get like a orgic reactions or something, but probably

1070
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: the idea is pretty similar. But again I want to reiterate,

1071
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 2: I didn't actually research how those vaccines are made. I

1072
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 2: was focusing on human stuff for this episode. Okay, so

1073
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: if you're a veterinarian, you got your vaccines ahead of time,

1074
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: then you get bit by a rabid cat, you'll get

1075
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 2: a couple extra vaccines after you know you've gotten bitten,

1076
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 2: just to boost your immune system. And that is almost

1077
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: one hundred percent effective, and you are very unlikely to

1078
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 2: die from rabies in that situation, which is absolutely amazing

1079
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 2: ya science. Okay, if you have never gotten a rabies

1080
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: vaccine before, we do something a little bit different, and

1081
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 2: this is pretty awesome, I think. So we have something

1082
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: called rabies immune globulin. So essentially what they do is

1083
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: they immunize either people or horses with the rabies vaccine

1084
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: and then they draw blood and they extract the plasma.

1085
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 2: We've talked about plasma before when we were talking about

1086
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 2: making synthetic blood and stuff. In the plasma, you have antibodies.

1087
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 2: We've talked about antibodies they bind to something on in

1088
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: this case, the rabies virus and they inactivate it. For example,

1089
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 2: maybe they make it so that the virus can no

1090
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: longer bind to a muscle sell and get into it,

1091
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: and so they essentially make it so that the virus

1092
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 2: can't do what it needs to do to replicate. They

1093
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 2: neutralize it in some way, and so they take out

1094
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 2: the antibodies that the human or horse immune system made

1095
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: and then they inject that into you near the bite site.

1096
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: So essentially you outsourced the initial immune response from some

1097
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: other organism and that gives you a head start. So

1098
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: while your immune system is responding to the vaccine and

1099
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: is trying to make its own response to rabies. You're

1100
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: borrowing someone else's immune response to give you a head start.

1101
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: You know, maybe that will do the trick. Maybe that

1102
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 2: will bind to all of the viruses that are trying

1103
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: to get into muscles initially, and then just in case,

1104
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 2: you know, your body will start making your own antibodies

1105
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,479
Speaker 2: and you'll get a series of I think it's something

1106
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: like three vaccines. It used to be you'd get a

1107
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 2: bunch of vaccines in like your abdominal region. And I

1108
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: think there's a little bit of folklore where people used

1109
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 2: to think it was like twenty vaccines that all had

1110
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: to go through your abdominal wall into your stomach, and

1111
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,399
Speaker 2: it was super painful, And it wasn't like that.

1112
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: Like it was painful.

1113
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: It was like in your sort of tummy region, but

1114
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 2: it didn't need to go like into your stomach through

1115
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 2: your abdominal wall. But now it is way less uncomfortable.

1116
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: It's like two or three shots usually in like the

1117
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: muscle in your arm. We also have like a version

1118
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: that goes just like right under your skin. Now way

1119
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,959
Speaker 2: less painful. Yes, the next day you probably feel pretty sore,

1120
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 2: especially after the third shot, but you're probably not gonna

1121
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: die of radiance.

1122
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: So yay, definitely worth.

1123
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 2: It, Definitely worth it. Yeah, So those are our treatments.

1124
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 2: But so in the United States, about one hundred thousand

1125
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 2: people need to get those series of shots after they

1126
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: get exposed to an animal that might be rabin. But

1127
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: the main thing that we do that protects us is

1128
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: we have this system where each state has a series

1129
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: of laws where you have to vaccinate your dogs and

1130
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: your cats. And that's the main thing that protects us

1131
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 2: because globally, most of the people who get bit are

1132
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: getting bit.

1133
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 3: By dogs, not by bats in their bedroom.

1134
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: Not by bats in their bedroom. Yeah, dogs are a

1135
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 2: much bigger risk. And so if we could just have

1136
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: similar programs where everybody had to vaccinate their dogs. And

1137
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 2: maybe there's some cultural problems, cultural difficulties, hurdles to get across,

1138
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 2: but I think a lot of it is like having

1139
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: the infrastructure, the ability to get the vaccines there, the

1140
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 2: ability to make sure that you've got records so that

1141
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: you're giving the vaccines every single year. But if you

1142
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 2: could get that stuff in place, we could have a

1143
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 2: lot fewer deaths and the few times that people do

1144
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: get bit by rabbit animals. If you could have the

1145
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: human vaccines available, we wouldn't have to have about sixty

1146
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: thousand people every year dying from this horrible disease.

1147
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's hope that the folks in charge of that

1148
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 3: figure it out.

1149
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope. So so should we end? For anybody

1150
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 2: who I know we've discussed statistics isn't how we live

1151
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: our lives. But do we want to end on a

1152
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: couple notes about how to try to prevent rabies in

1153
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: your life?

1154
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, exactly other than vaccinateing in your pets and

1155
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 3: closing the windows in your bedroom, what should you do

1156
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: to avoid rabies?

1157
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 7: All right?

1158
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 2: Well, so I'll note this was a little bit surprising.

1159
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: You're supposed to vaccinate your cats and dogs, also your ferrets.

1160
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: I get there are some places that have rules about

1161
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: vaccinating ferrets. You can also vaccinate things like horses. My

1162
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: recommendation anything you can vaccinate, vaccinate. Keep your pets from

1163
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 2: interacting with wild animals, so you know, maybe don't just

1164
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 2: let your animals run wild. I am mostly talking to me.

1165
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 2: I live on a farm. Sometimes I just let my

1166
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: dog out and I'm like, oh, I have fun, see

1167
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: you in a few hours. Maybe I should be more

1168
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 2: careful about that. Report stray animals to local authorities. You

1169
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 2: shouldn't touch wild animals, like if you see a skunk

1170
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: that looks sick, call animal control or something. Don't touch

1171
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: them on your own. That poor animal could be rabid.

1172
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: They could give it to you. Keep bats out of

1173
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: your house. Make sure you have like screens on your

1174
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: windows if possible. If you are going to do a

1175
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 2: high risk activity like splunking in a cave that has

1176
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: a lot of bats, consider trying to get the vaccine preventively.

1177
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: You can talk to your doctor and if you think

1178
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 2: you've been exposed to the rabies.

1179
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: Virus, wash the area thoroughly.

1180
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 2: And then immediately go seek medical attention. And if you

1181
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: are ever unsure, call a doctor or go see a doctor.

1182
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 2: For me, I think I'm supposed to call my local

1183
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,479
Speaker 2: poison control center for advice, but like call nine one one,

1184
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 2: figure out who you have to talk to. Don't worry about,

1185
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: you know, looking silly or something. This is a serious disease.

1186
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 2: Don't mess around, that's right.

1187
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 3: Don't worry about finishing this podcast before you call your doctor.

1188
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 3: Pause it right now and call your doctor.

1189
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: Yes, right, And Kelly is not a medical doctor.

1190
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 2: Kelly is not the kind of doctor that most people

1191
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 2: recognize as being a doctor. When they ask is there're

1192
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 2: a doctor on the plane, they don't mean me, So

1193
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 2: don't take medical advice from me.

1194
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: Talk to a medical doctor.

1195
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 3: Thank you Kelly for that tour of the history of rabies,

1196
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 3: and thank you Gurjeet for sending us curious question. If

1197
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 3: there are things you want to hear a deep dive about,

1198
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 3: please don't hesitate to write to us. We want to

1199
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 3: hear from you. Questions at Danielankelly dot org.

1200
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone, have a good day, avoid skunks.

1201
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

1202
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,279
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1203
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,480
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1204
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,320
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1205
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,360
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1206
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:36,360
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1207
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,799
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1208
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,600
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1209
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,840
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1210
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,000
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1211
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,880
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1212
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:51,880
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1213
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,880
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1214
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,920
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