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Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Podcast. We'll tell you we are in Washington

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Speaker 1: and in the DMV we're having some amazing weather, and

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you the following is not a coincidence. Literally

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Speaker 1: the day it seemed as if we got rid of

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Speaker 1: our humidity the day Congress left town. I mean, use

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Speaker 1: every stupid joke you want to make, but the hot

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Speaker 1: air leaves town and literally took the hot air with it.

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Speaker 1: We have had some incredible weather days here in the DMB.

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Speaker 1: There is nothing like living here in Washington when Congress

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Speaker 1: is not here. The traffic is better, the flowers are brighter,

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Speaker 1: the air is clearer. Anyway, I'm being I'm obviously being

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Speaker 1: a little a little snarky about this, but only a little.

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Speaker 1: It has been fascinating that once they left, it is

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Speaker 1: as if the sun came out and the bird started chirping,

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Speaker 1: and the flowers started blooming and all of those things.

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Speaker 1: Because it is one of those weird, weird times here

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Speaker 1: in Washington, where you know, people will regularly ask me, so,

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Speaker 1: how you doing. I'm like, well, my family's doing great,

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Speaker 1: personal life's doing great. Works, you know, even really enjoying

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Speaker 1: this new business ventures and all of this stuff, but

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Speaker 1: oh my god, the country's in trouble. And that's like,

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Speaker 1: it's this like this nagging thing. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you I wish I were losing you know, I'm glad

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Speaker 1: not to have personal challenges, but it means I'm losing

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Speaker 1: sleep over over what's happening to our country collectively. And

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Speaker 1: I think we're all a little concerned about that. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna give you a little heads up what I'm doing today.

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Speaker 1: I interview with a terrific new book. Tim Winer has

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Speaker 1: written a slew of books about the defense, about both

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Speaker 1: the Pentagon, our national security world and intelligence, written a

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Speaker 1: number of books on the CIA. Has got a new

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Speaker 1: book on the c I A he spoke to, uh

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Speaker 1: the not counting Ratcliffe now, but the six all six

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Speaker 1: of the previous heads of the CIA that go back,

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Speaker 1: uh since nine to eleven. Uh And the CIA is

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Speaker 1: still trying to figure out it's mission, you know, in

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Speaker 1: a post nine to eleven world, uh in a in

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Speaker 1: a in a in a world where uh uh, the

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Speaker 1: CIA was asked to be uh more of a of

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Speaker 1: a military uh more more of a paramilitary organization than

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Speaker 1: it had been in quite some time, right after nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, the impact that had h and the impact

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration's having, uh, and the trust or lack

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Speaker 1: thereof in the intelligence community. That goes both ways, right

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Speaker 1: Trump Trump doesn't trust the intel community. In the intel

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Speaker 1: community doesn't trust him. It is it is a it

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Speaker 1: is a recipe for concern.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And uh, look, it's a it's a pretty it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty star conversation that Tim and I have. But man,

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Speaker 1: he is he understands how the CIA works better than

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Speaker 1: pretty much anybody alive right now. And so I take

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Speaker 1: his warnings quite seriously and you should too. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: the timing of this interview, I interviewed him last week,

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Speaker 1: but it hitting today. Look, is President Trump even listening

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Speaker 1: to his intelligence and to the intelligence folks when it

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Speaker 1: comes to what Putin's really up to? What does Putin

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Speaker 1: really want? It's pretty clear he doesn't listen to national

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Speaker 1: security and intelligence folks when it comes to how to

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Speaker 1: deal with Putin, or he wouldn't have given Putin a

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Speaker 1: summit on American soil. Meeting him in Alaska has got

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Speaker 1: everybody nervous. Giving a two bit a sort of tin

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Speaker 1: pot dictator like Putin. This is not a serious world leader.

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Speaker 1: This is a person who has nuclear weapons, so you

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Speaker 1: have to take him seriously. But as John McCain call me,

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Speaker 1: he's basically just, you know, a guy who runs a

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Speaker 1: gas station with with nuclear weapons. And yet Trump loves

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Speaker 1: to elevate him, and Putin loves that Trump loves to

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Speaker 1: elevate him. You know it is It's fascinating to me

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Speaker 1: that when the idea of this summit was out there,

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Speaker 1: immediately the Trump administration i e. Marco Rubio hinted that

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Speaker 1: this would be no summer would happen without Zelensky being involved.

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Speaker 1: Maybe Trump and Putin would meet first and then Zelensky

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Speaker 1: would be involved. Then suddenly Trump just agrees to a

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Speaker 1: one on one summit. Maybe maybe Zelenski's there, maybe he's not.

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Speaker 1: So Already Putin is getting everything he wants and the

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Speaker 1: biggest danger here and this is going to dominate the week,

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Speaker 1: by the way, This isn't I've got I've got something bigger.

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Speaker 1: I want to I want to focus on before we

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Speaker 1: get to the interview with Tim. But this is going

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Speaker 1: to dominate the week. And you know, the I think

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Speaker 1: the biggest concern Europe, Ukraine and for frankly, anybody that

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Speaker 1: wants a world that favors liberal, small l liberal democracy.

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Speaker 1: For those of you that want to take that word

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Speaker 1: and claim on saying something else, it is not liberal

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Speaker 1: as in an American ideological term, but liberal as in

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Speaker 1: the world order. Do you want to live in a

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Speaker 1: world where where there's essentially where democracy flourishes, or do

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Speaker 1: you want to live in a world where authoritarianism flourishes?

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Speaker 1: And there is a concern of all the Western world

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Speaker 1: that Trump wants a deal too badly. If he wants

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Speaker 1: a deal, if he goes into that summit with Putin

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Speaker 1: without Zelensky there and he wants a deal too badly,

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Speaker 1: he's going to end up giving away stuff that Ukraine's

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Speaker 1: not going to sign off on, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: Europe signs off on. And what happens then, you know,

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Speaker 1: does he get angry, does he side more with Putin?

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Speaker 1: It looked like he wanted to get tough with Putin,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden he just rolled over

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Speaker 1: this week and said, sure, let's do a summit. So look,

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Speaker 1: we'll see how he handles this week. We'll see if

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Speaker 1: Zelensky is it really would be a huge I think.

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Speaker 1: I think at a minimum, he's got to bring Zelensky

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Speaker 1: to Alaska and and sort of force force the situation

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Speaker 1: if he really wants a deal. Look, I get that

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Speaker 1: he wants this deal. He's obsessed with somehow creating. You know,

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Speaker 1: he keeps talking about this Nobel Peace Prize. He's everything

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Speaker 1: Obama has he wants, right, I mean, who knows. At

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Speaker 1: some point he may wish Michelle Obama was the first

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Speaker 1: Lady instead of Malania. But it does seem as whatever

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Speaker 1: Obama got he wants, right, he's obsessed. The obsession Trump

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Speaker 1: has with all things Obama is quite something, and so

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Speaker 1: obviously because Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize, he wants

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Speaker 1: a Nobel Piece prize. Talking about all of these, you know,

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Speaker 1: he goes out of his way. If he sees a

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Speaker 1: dispute between two countries, he inserts himself. I'll be honest,

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Speaker 1: I don't mind that he does that. I don't mind

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Speaker 1: that an American president wants to use the prestige of

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Speaker 1: the American presidency to try to bring peace. That is

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Speaker 1: a good thing. So I don't want to sit here

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Speaker 1: and say this is a bad thing. The concern you

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Speaker 1: have though, is how badly does he want to deal?

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Speaker 1: And that's got to be the concern when it comes

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Speaker 1: with Putin. How badly is he going to want to deal?

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Speaker 1: And does he give does he essentially give up so much?

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Speaker 1: And then what is Ukraine and Europe supposed to do

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Speaker 1: if Trump and Putin agree to something and Ukraine doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to agree to it. As the Lunsky keeps pointing out,

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Speaker 1: just trading Land is against the constitution of Ukraine. Now,

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Speaker 1: maybe Trump doesn't care about Ukraine's constitution because frankly, I

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Speaker 1: don't think he cares about America's constitution, which is the

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Speaker 1: focal focus of what I want to get out here

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Speaker 1: in a minute. But that is that is going to

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Speaker 1: dominate the week. It should dominate the week. But it

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Speaker 1: is interesting. You do get a sense that the people

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Speaker 1: around President Trump, namely Marco Rubio, since he is both

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Speaker 1: National Security Advisor, Secretary of State, head of the Archives.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many other jobs he's been handed.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he's the next bedchair. We saw we have more

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Speaker 1: people with two jobs these days with the Treasury secretary.

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Speaker 1: Now he's running the hi RS. That's an interesting story

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Speaker 1: which I'm going to get to in a minute. But

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Speaker 1: the fact is there was an attempt at a check

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Speaker 1: and balance. Donald Trump didn't like that somebody pushed back

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Speaker 1: and refused to do something that was likely unconstitutional, So

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Speaker 1: he pushes Billy Long out. That is what happened, folks.

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Speaker 1: So that is a concern. But that does bring me

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Speaker 1: to this larger, the larger issue we're ald dealing with

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Speaker 1: right now. So when you look at what's happening with redistricting,

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Speaker 1: redistricting is is just a It's just the latest skirmish

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Speaker 1: between what is turning into a cold civil war. All right,

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Speaker 1: this way, this is what it is. I hate using

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Speaker 1: that rhetoric, I using those words, but what else are

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Speaker 1: you going to describe it. We are literally having a

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Speaker 1: redistricting war between the states right now, and we have

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Speaker 1: governors who have decided they don't care about the minority

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Speaker 1: rights in their own states. Greg Abbott doesn't care. If

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Speaker 1: you don't agree with Greg Abbott, he is going to

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Speaker 1: force his will upon you in the state of Texas.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't agree with Cavin Newsom and how

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Speaker 1: they're going to he's going to force his will upon you.

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Speaker 1: This is not this is not what the founders intended.

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Speaker 1: But look, let's I mean, look, I'm obviously pretty critical

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Speaker 1: of how the Democrats have responded to the Republicans. But

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Speaker 1: make no mistake, it is Donald Trump and the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party are creating this unprecedented challenge to this to our

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Speaker 1: constitutional republic. Okay, on so many levels, redistricting is really

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Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg. This is not a

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Speaker 1: policy fight. This isn't the use partisan back and forth.

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Speaker 1: It is a direct stress test of whether our constitutional

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Speaker 1: system actually works. When a president and his party decide

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Speaker 1: they don't have to care about the limits that are

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Speaker 1: written down on paper. Okay, he is Spinello. Trump has

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Speaker 1: spent years, parts of his first term, and much so

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Speaker 1: far of these first two hundred plus day bending and

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Speaker 1: breaking the guardrails of the of the Republic. He's weaponized

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Speaker 1: federal agencies for personal vendettas. He's ignoring constitutional boundaries on

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Speaker 1: executive power, treating the Justice Department in his personal law firm,

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Speaker 1: unilaterally imposing tariffs for reasons that have nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with trader law. That's unconstitutional. I think the courts are

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Speaker 1: going to figure that out soon enough. And the GOP

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Speaker 1: from its leadership to its so called moderates in the

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Speaker 1: party have all chosen to enable him. They've confirmed his

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Speaker 1: most troubling cabinet choices, including one who is wrecking America's health,

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Speaker 1: which I talked about last week. They've refused to conduct

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Speaker 1: meaningful oversight over these horrendous decisions. They've allowed the constitutional

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Speaker 1: tools that the founders gave them. They're in their hands

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Speaker 1: and they're just gathering dust. But here's the part that

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Speaker 1: people on the left don't want to talk about. The

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Speaker 1: Democratic response is pretty troubling because right now, as a party, okay,

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Speaker 1: as an official party apparatus, they've decided to frame this

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Speaker 1: moment as a war, right, Okay, you got to fight

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Speaker 1: fire with fire. That we're in a this is an

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Speaker 1: unprecedented moment. So they're framing as a war. And when

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Speaker 1: you tell yourself you're in a war, you start rationalizing

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Speaker 1: things you'd normally not do that you would say is

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Speaker 1: immoral or wrong or unprincipled, But hey, it's war and

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Speaker 1: all spare and war. Right, that's the mindset. For a decade,

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Speaker 1: the Democrats made the moral and civic case for less

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Speaker 1: partisan redistricting and in some cases to take it out

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Speaker 1: of politicians' hands altogether. The Demoocratic Party, many inside the party,

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Speaker 1: Eric Holder has been working on this. Others have spent

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Speaker 1: money on referendum around on states Florida and California and

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Speaker 1: Ohio and New York and Virginia and many of these

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Speaker 1: places too, because they argued it was the right thing

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Speaker 1: to do. And guess what, I think it is the

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Speaker 1: right thing to do. Take as much politics out of

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Speaker 1: this as you can.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: The Democratic Party, they championed independent commissions and they wanted

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Speaker 1: competitive maps. But now with Republicans openly wanting to break

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Speaker 1: the rules like they're doing in Texas, Democrats say, all right,

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Speaker 1: we're going to break them too. And if you criticize

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Speaker 1: that decision, as I've been doing, I've been told I'm naive,

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Speaker 1: that I don't understand the stakes, that you are not

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Speaker 1: taking this threat seriously. Oh contrary, my friend, I do

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Speaker 1: goddamn understand the stakes. And we are not replacing one unprincipled,

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Speaker 1: unconstitutional set of leaders with another set of on principled

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Speaker 1: and constitutional set of leaders. And that's the mistake people

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Speaker 1: keep making with Trump. Trust me, I'd love to tell

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Speaker 1: the guy all these things and do all these horrible things,

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Speaker 1: but you're not. You go low with him, and he wins.

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Speaker 1: What he wants is to drag his opponents into the

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Speaker 1: same immoral gutter that he lives in to make them behave.

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Speaker 1: He wants all of his opponents to behave as immortally

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Speaker 1: and a morley as he does. And the moment somebody does,

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Speaker 1: he wins, because then what does he say? See, I

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Speaker 1: told you the entire system is corrupt. They're all corrupt.

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Speaker 1: I'm just more honest about it. They're all like me.

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Speaker 1: And we've seen it in little ways, in big ways.

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Speaker 1: Marco Ruby in his little hands, right, what was the

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Speaker 1: end of Marco Rubio's political career when he decided to

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Speaker 1: go low with Donald Trump? Anybody that is attempted to

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Speaker 1: go into the gutter with him has has only allowed

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Speaker 1: him to win. But let's go through the blueprint that

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Speaker 1: the Founders actually gave us. The Founder saw this danger coming,

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Speaker 1: maybe not Trump specifically, but the idea of a leader

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Speaker 1: or a faction that believed winning an election meant a

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Speaker 1: blank check to rule. Minority rights be damned. The Founders

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Speaker 1: feared two things above all, another king and tyranny of

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Speaker 1: the majority. Here's what James Madison said in Federalists number ten,

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Speaker 1: if a majority be united by a common interest, the

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Speaker 1: rights of the minority will be insecure. His solution was

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Speaker 1: a very large republic. He wanted enough competing interest to

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Speaker 1: make it quote very improbable, if not impracticable, impracticable, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: for one majority to unite and trample the rest that

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Speaker 1: there would be so many sort of different groups of

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Speaker 1: majorities at any one time that would be a check

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Speaker 1: on any sort of dictator like figure. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: in Federalists fifty one he sharpened the point and he said,

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Speaker 1: this ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The great

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Speaker 1: security consists in giving each department the necessary constitutional means

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Speaker 1: to resist encroachments of the others. Checks and balances, folks, Okay,

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Speaker 1: checks and balances. Hamilton added in Federalist seventy eight, when

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Speaker 1: he was defending the need for an independent judiciary, he said,

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Speaker 1: neither force nor will, but merely judgment. That's the shield

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Speaker 1: against mob arrel. These weren't lofty ideals, they were tools.

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Speaker 1: They were designed to be used when majority power got dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Well guess what, folks, Majority power is dangerous right in

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Speaker 1: this moment. We have the tools no one uses them,

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Speaker 1: or someone like Mitch McConnell is afraid to use them.

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Speaker 1: He had the most important tool of all and he

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Speaker 1: failed the biggest test of his life. He will have

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Speaker 1: to live with that. Maybe he can't. But here's where

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Speaker 1: we are. The tools are still there, but the people

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Speaker 1: holding them refuse to use them. The moderate or mainstream Republicans,

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Speaker 1: the ones who actually know Trump is wrong, have chosen

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Speaker 1: silence over action. They confirmed troubling cabinet secretaries that they

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Speaker 1: all knew were going to create problems, problems for our

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Speaker 1: health with Bobby Kennedy Junior at HHS. My god, it's

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Speaker 1: a bigger disaster than anybody could have predicted, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people predicted this would be a disaster, but literally,

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Speaker 1: this man is a menace to society, a menace Pete

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Speaker 1: hag Seth, that Defense weighing over his head, lots of

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Speaker 1: concerns about readiness, lots of concerns about troop morale, all

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Speaker 1: due to the bizarre leadership that hag Seth has had

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Speaker 1: at Defense. And again, multiple members of the Senate basically

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Speaker 1: got intimidated into voting for him. Jony Earns him and

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Speaker 1: Tom Tillis knew this guy was totally unqualified for the job,

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Speaker 1: and they got bullied by MAGA into supporting them. And

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Speaker 1: of course there's Tulsa Gabbert, who may or may not

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Speaker 1: be the single most important asset Rush has ever had.

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Speaker 1: Congress is also ignored on the unconstitional tariff abuse. They're

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Speaker 1: not the ones that have filed suit in the courts

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Speaker 1: that Trump is unilaterally using authority that belongs to the

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Speaker 1: legislative branch. It's others that have filed suit. The Congressional

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Speaker 1: Republicans have looked the other way as foreign aid was

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Speaker 1: gutted and the intelligence community hollowed out. They've not lifted

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Speaker 1: one finger of oversight. Not one. It's not they're not

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Speaker 1: even You can't even say there's been a week check

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Speaker 1: on Trump. It has been no check on him at all.

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Speaker 2: Guess what.

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Speaker 1: The Constitution can't enforce itself without people willing to wield

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Speaker 1: those checks. All we have our words on a yellowing

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Speaker 1: parchment paper. All right, this isn't just a Washington politician problem.

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Speaker 1: Look at some of these entities. CBS, paramount CC is

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Speaker 1: slapping unconstitutional handcuffs on the News Division, blatant First Amendment violations.

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Speaker 1: Remember the First Amendment is specifically about what government can

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Speaker 1: can and can't tell you what to do. Okay on this,

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Speaker 1: but CBS has decided it's easier not to fight, so

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Speaker 1: they've accepted these unconstitutional handcuffs. And by them swallowing these restrictions,

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Speaker 1: they potentially create a precedent, and they're coming after other networks.

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Speaker 1: Renting car has all but said this, He's coming after

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Speaker 1: NBC's coming after They're going after all the networks, and again,

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Speaker 1: totally unconstitutional for government to do what he's been trying

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Speaker 1: to do here. Founders Again, the founders did not write

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Speaker 1: the Constitution so it could sit in a display case

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Speaker 1: at Mark Rubia's National Archives. Remember he's currently also the archivist.

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Speaker 1: Right now, they're meant for it to have a living

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Speaker 1: set of guardrails, but the guardrails only work if someone

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Speaker 1: grabs the wheel. I want to call my friend Andrew Sullivan,

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Speaker 1: who just nailed it in this most recent substack, right

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Speaker 1: he said, this is a permanent stain, and that's scary.

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Speaker 1: Here's what he writes in the face off between this

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Speaker 1: man's wilful power and liberal democracy. Liberal democracy would just fold.

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Speaker 1: We didn't think that was going to happen. But it has.

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Speaker 1: We've watched Trump used tariffs, which is constitutionally Congress's job,

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Speaker 1: as personal punishment against countries that displeased him. Me and

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Speaker 1: what he's doing with Brazil.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'll defend what he's doing with India if he

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Speaker 1: really means it about Russia. But is this about Russia anyway?

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Speaker 1: But we digress. He declares every judicial ruling against him

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Speaker 1: is corrupt and every ruling for him is justice. That

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Speaker 1: is no small d democrat, that is somebody who does

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Speaker 1: not believe in the constitutional republic. He's turned the Justice

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Speaker 1: Department to his own enforcement arm, and he's abused the

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Speaker 1: pardon power, turned it into a loyalty test, freeze violent rioters,

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Speaker 1: promises immunity for crimes done in his name, and anybody

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Speaker 1: who pays it, he pays him or his family enough money,

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Speaker 1: they get they get a little extra something. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: just go look at the lobbyist filings right now. Right

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Speaker 1: those with the every country trying and company trying to

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Speaker 1: get an exemption from the tariffs have all hired the

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Speaker 1: same firms who know what the correct way to do

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Speaker 1: business with Trumpets. I think I think some in another

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Speaker 1: life people would have just referred to this as mob rule.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to leave. I don't want to leave

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Speaker 1: Tim Cook out of this moment. Apple CEO stands in

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Speaker 1: the Oval office and he hands Trump a golden plaque,

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Speaker 1: an engraved Apple glass, smiling for the cameras. Right, pay

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Speaker 1: the tribute to the king, to the mad camp Now,

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Speaker 1: I get it to Cook. This is a small gesture, Eh,

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Speaker 1: they look at it. The statue is nothing compared to

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Speaker 1: the damaged Trump could do to Apple's business. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: I understand, and he's got a fiducial responsibility to his shareholders.

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Speaker 1: But I assume Tim Cook considers himself a patriotic American

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Speaker 1: and believes in the US Constitution because by doing what

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Speaker 1: he did, this is America's most famous company now, right,

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Speaker 1: the pre eminent corporation right, arguably the most valuable real company.

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Speaker 1: I know, Palanteer I think technically has a higher value

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Speaker 1: right now. But that is all speculative, like Apple is

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Speaker 1: essentially right, this is this is the symbol of an

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Speaker 1: American company in the twenty first century, all right, Apple,

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Speaker 1: what GM was, what GM and Ford were in the

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Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, That's what Apple is, right, And here

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Speaker 1: he is bending the knee, setting an example. What are

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Speaker 1: other corporate leaders supposed to do? Bend the knee or fight?

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Speaker 1: Nobody's fighting. All of these folks have constitutional tools to

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Speaker 1: fight this tyranny. The founders gave them all these tools

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Speaker 1: to do this. And everybody's surrendering, and everybody's surrendering for

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Speaker 1: self protection, political survival, shareholder price, maybe their own survival

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Speaker 1: in a corporation. All seems like good ideas until we

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Speaker 1: lose it all. We're not in a constitutional republic. If

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Speaker 1: we lose this democracy, you're going to lose a lot

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Speaker 1: more than a few dollars of price on apple shares.

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Speaker 1: So this gets me to what the Democrats are doing.

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Speaker 1: They're taking the bait. They've decided the only way to

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Speaker 1: fight is to act just as ruthlessly revenge redistricting in Illinois,

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Speaker 1: New York, California. And they tell themselves it's self defense,

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Speaker 1: but in reality, it's exactly what Trump wants to make

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Speaker 1: his opponents, his illegal and immoral game by his rules

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Speaker 1: in his universe, and here we are. It's the political

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Speaker 1: version of the old saying when you get into the

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Speaker 1: mud with a pig, you both get dirty, and the

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Speaker 1: pig likes it, replacing am and don't give me this

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Speaker 1: crap rationalize that. You know he's a bad mob boss.

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Speaker 1: You got to do whatever you cake, we'll be a

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Speaker 1: good mob boss. The answer is no mob bosses at all. Look,

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Speaker 1: I don't like the lazy comparisons to nineteen thirties Germany.

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Speaker 1: I hate the quote second Civil War predictions. I'd like

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Speaker 1: to believe that we're a lot better than that. And frankly,

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Speaker 1: you know, I sort of buy into to that thesis

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Speaker 1: that says I think it's Godwin's law when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the Nazis. You know that, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: can't make your point without invoking the Nazis, and you're

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Speaker 1: probably not very good at debating and making your point.

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Speaker 1: But let's be honest, it's a bit uncomfortable seeing how

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Speaker 1: many mistakes from the eighteen fifties, from eighteen fifties America

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Speaker 1: or pre war Europe in the early nineteen thirties are

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Speaker 1: happening again right here. The normalization of the unacceptable, the

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Speaker 1: rational rationalizing of just this once will breach our principle.

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Speaker 1: Just this once will do this because it's in the

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Speaker 1: name of something bigger and better. The founders gave us

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Speaker 1: these tools to prevent this. They feared a king, they

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Speaker 1: feared a united majority trampling on the rest of us.

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Speaker 1: They didn't imagine leaders who would just refuse to use

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Speaker 1: the tools. They didn't they'd come back here and be appalled,

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Speaker 1: be appalled. And here's the thing, you know right now,

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Speaker 1: both political parties only hear from the loudest voices, and

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Speaker 1: the loudest voices are angry, and they're in the base

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Speaker 1: base MAGA, and you have the progressive base, and they're

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Speaker 1: all on fire right now for various reasons. One is celebrating,

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Speaker 1: one is on fire and anger, okay, But the majority

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Speaker 1: of us live somewhere in between those bases, and many

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Speaker 1: of us have tuned out. I haven't. I hope some

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Speaker 1: of you who were tuning out or tuning into me,

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Speaker 1: tuning into somebody who isn't going to sit here and

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Speaker 1: just tell you what you want to hear on stage left,

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Speaker 1: stage right. I'm just trying to live in the real world.

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Speaker 1: I like a world where there is always look. I

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Speaker 1: think when one party goes too far and want the

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Speaker 1: other party to get power and drag them back. I

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Speaker 1: am one of those who believes that this country is

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Speaker 1: always better off when we just sort of we do

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Speaker 1: that little balance, not quite a rocking seesaw, but that

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Speaker 1: little balance that would go a little one way, a

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Speaker 1: little the other. And then I count on members of

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Speaker 1: both parties, even when they're in the minority or majority,

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Speaker 1: to know when to work with the other side when

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Speaker 1: they realize, hey, this is like our health. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the idea that a majority of the US Senate can't

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Speaker 1: get up here and impeach this menace to society and

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Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Junior, who is literally making decisions that

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Speaker 1: are going to kill people, and they're doing nothing about this,

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Speaker 1: nothing about this. And it's the independence. It's the people

428
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: here in the middle that are not being represented by

429
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: either one of these parties right now. These parties are

430
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: trying to protect their own They're trying to entrench their

431
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: own power, right Republicans are trying to save it and

432
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: Democrats are trying to entrench what they have to get

433
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: it back. But nobody is trying to think about what's

434
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, what's the right way to

435
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: do this. Who's going to stand up because you know what,

436
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: redistricting blue states, that's the easy way out. You know what.

437
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: The hard way is running a campaign and defeating Greg

438
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: Abbott as governor, or going to win some legislative seats,

439
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: organizing in the state of Florida. That's the hard way.

440
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: The easy answer is an undemocratic power craft with your

441
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: own undemocratic approach. The hard way is to resist within

442
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: the law, within the constitution, and within your own principles,

443
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: even if it might cost you politically. Madison's warning still

444
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: sands of the majority be united by a common interest,

445
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: the rights of the minority will be insecure. And right

446
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: now the people who could stand up aren't standing up.

447
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: Leaders in both parties are failing this test. Nobody is

448
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: looking out for the best interests of how a very

449
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: fragmented society can live. We are a very fragmented society.

450
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: Not everybody was united on how whether we should even

451
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: revolt from the British and how to do it. But

452
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: they wanted to come up with a system that would

453
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: give everybody a chance, and everybody a voice, and everybody

454
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: a say, and everybody some protection. And the Bill of

455
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: Rights were designed not to help the majority rule, but

456
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: to make sure the majority didn't overrule and then run

457
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: over people's rights run over people's rights to on faith

458
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: or not to have faith. I mean, you look at

459
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: what Louisiana and Oklahoma are doing. They're shoving religion through

460
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: the public school system. That is not what the constitution

461
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: allows for, and that is unfair to the minority who

462
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: do not want If you want a religious based education,

463
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 1: you can go to a private school and do that,

464
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: but you don't use tax dollars to force it down people.

465
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: This is happening left and right these days. So if

466
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: nobody's going to stand up and defend the rights of

467
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: the minority, which again that's why we have the Bill

468
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: of Rights, was to defend those in the minority in

469
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: any given moment, in the minority, on speech, in the minority,

470
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: on religion, in the minority, on political power. They were

471
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: not to be thrown out of the country. They were

472
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: not to be thrown in jail. They were not to

473
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: be called treason. Is the most patriotic thing you can

474
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: do is to disagree with your president. There's nothing and

475
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: it's just as patriotic to disagree with them as it

476
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: is to agree with them. And sometimes it's just as

477
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: unpatriotic to agree with them. If you're doing it in

478
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: order to slim your fellow US citizen. So I couldn't

479
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: be more disappointed. There is literally zero leadership in the

480
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: Democratic Party that's standing on principle right now. We already

481
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: have a Republican Party that's principalists amoral at this point,

482
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: right Johnson and Thune are doing nothing here. Nobody is

483
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: standing up to this stuff. But the Democrats answer is

484
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: using tools and behaving in ways that is only going

485
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: to make it easier for him to get what he's

486
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: trying to get done, not harder. Look, the Democrats actually

487
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: had a much smarter way to resist Trump in the

488
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: first term, and a lot of Republicans stood up to

489
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: Trump in the first turn, and that was the proper

490
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: way to deal with a mad king, and the guardrails

491
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 1: got dented, but they worked. Nobody's even trying it that

492
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: way this time. That's a shame and that's a problem.

493
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: Before we get started with Tim Winner, I do want

494
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: to focus on the tragedy that unfolded at the CDC

495
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: because it dovetails.

496
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: Look.

497
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: My interview this week on Newsphere Sunday Night with Check

498
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: Todd is with Francis Collins, and first of all, if

499
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: you listen to nothing else. You need to listen to this.

500
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: Francis Collins wrote a song and it's kind of a

501
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: bluesy song, and it was It's It's it's lyrics. You

502
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: need to listen to the lyrics carefully. So after our

503
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: interview he asked if he could play. He brought his guitar,

504
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: and I thought, why not. And when you listen to

505
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: the lyrics, it's all about a man wants to make

506
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: the point that when it comes to disease, disease, they

507
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: don't they don't find out if you're a liberal or

508
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: a conservative. The disease comes for you. They don't find

509
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: out if you're rich or poor, disease comes for you.

510
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: But it's his way. He's looking for any way to

511
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: communicate to people that what what, hh, what nih has

512
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: been doing has been only for the betterment of the

513
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: human of human health, period and that this nonsense that

514
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: Kennedy has spewed is just that it's nonsense. It's complete

515
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: and utter nonsense, And it was just a very The

516
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: whole interview is very troubling when you just hear about

517
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: all all of the things that we're now that that

518
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: Kennedy has set us back on decades. If Kennedy went

519
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: away tomorrow and you could flip the switch, Francis Collins

520
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: told me that it would still take years to recover

521
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: from all the lost researchers who have been fired, who

522
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: are now leaving the country. In some cases, he said,

523
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: from Australia to France, to the UK, to Japan to

524
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: South Korea. All of these allies of ours who believe

525
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: in medical research are all recruiting all these people that

526
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: worked at nih SO. And obviously Kennedy's not going the

527
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: way tomorrow, so this damage is going to be exponentially

528
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: worse with every day he's there. But I don't want

529
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 1: to let this moment go without what letting you know what.

530
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure some of you followed what happened. But late

531
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: last week a lone gunman opened fire on the Centers

532
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: for Disease Control and Prevention CDC, killed a police officer,

533
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: shattered some windows across the campus. CDC employees are obviously

534
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: in shock and in fear about what happened. So this

535
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: is a real moment. HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior

536
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: is in charge of the CDC. Now the CDC's chief

537
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: medical officer told staff on a Saturday morning call, we're

538
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: mad that this happened, and on that same call the

539
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: agency's new director, doctor Susan Monarez. She tried to reassure him,

540
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: but one employee asked her directly, quote, are you able

541
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: to speak to the misinformation, the disinformation that caused this issue,

542
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: and what is your plan forward to ensure this doesn't

543
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: happen again. Well, here's the issue. According to law enforcement,

544
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: the suspect that had become fixated on the coronavirus vaccine

545
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: and convinced that the vaccine was causing all of his

546
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: physical ailments inside the CDC. Many are seeing this attack

547
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: as part of a disturbing pattern where public health workers

548
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: have been targeted by political, verbal, and now physical assaults

549
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: ever since the pandemic began. So this is just violence

550
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: at the workplace. It was violence born from disinformation, the

551
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: kind of disinformation that's been allowed to fester, amplify, and fantastasize.

552
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: Much of this disinformation is courtesy of an anti vaccine

553
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: activist by the name of Robert of Kennedy Junior. Now,

554
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: of course, now he's a HHS secretary and he oversees CDC.

555
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: He never spoke publicly about this issue on Friday. By

556
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: late Saturday morning, according to one report, more than half

557
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: an hour after posting phishing photos on social media first,

558
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: Kennedy finally posted condolences on x and pledged to support

559
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 1: CDC employees. Later in that day did send an email

560
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: to the entire HHS workforce, and the email, he said,

561
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: this is a reminder of the very human challenges public

562
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: servants sometimes face, even in places dedicated to healing and progress.

563
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: But it also reinforces the importance of the work you

564
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: do every day. That was the official response. But let's

565
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: not forget the backdrop. Here's the backdrop. Kennedy spent years

566
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: calling the CDC quote a cesspool of corruption. That was

567
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: what activist Kennedy called it. He also referred to the

568
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: CDC once as a fascist enterprise. Robert of Kennedy, those

569
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: are the words he's used and again. He has been

570
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: called by Nature magazine the leading super spreader of health

571
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: misinformation and vaccine misinformation. He accused scientists of ignoring vaccine

572
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: arms feeding right into what the shooter claims to children,

573
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: and he compared them to the Catholic Church covering up

574
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: a child child sex abuse. He called the COVID vaccine,

575
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: the deadliest vaccine ever made. So that's the backdrop. This

576
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: stuff has real world consequences, misinformation and disinformation in particular,

577
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: and the weaponizing of it. Look, there's a lot of

578
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: social media companies that need to rethink how they've handled

579
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: Kennedy and how they handled health because they really put

580
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: up we don't control the distribution of good information the

581
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: tech company to do. Just remember that. So look, this

582
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: is this is the public record, This is Kennedy's public record.

583
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: This happened on Kennedy's watch. Now he's got to lead

584
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: the CDC. Nobody's going to trust him on the inside,

585
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: and nor should they. How do you expect them to?

586
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: The only thing I think we all should fear is

587
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: that if the CDC gets purged the way nih has

588
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: been purged. This is anyway, it's a rough moment. It's

589
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: a rough moment. But I want to quote Celine Grounder.

590
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: She's an infectious disease specialist at Bellevue and she put

591
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: it this way. The intersection of disinformation, conspiracy theories, and

592
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: political violence is getting scarier by the day. I'm very

593
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: worried about how this is now going beyond defunding of

594
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: infectious diseases in public health to political violence against the

595
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: people working in those fields. Leadership matters here, folks. I

596
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: think what he's already done are multiple impeachable fences. If

597
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: the US Senate would get off it's ours and do it.

598
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: Bill Cassidy said it was troubling what Kennedy did with

599
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: in the cuts to when he cut r mRNA funding

600
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: completely from NIAH, canceled all those contracts. I think it's

601
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 1: more than troubling information. I believe we have impeachable offense.

602
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: And then some Congress needs to do oversight and quickly

603
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: because America's health is counting on it. All right, once again,

604
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: I had a very uplifting way to open. I know

605
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: it's what you guys turned to me for right to

606
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: feel good about everyday life. I'm half kidding, of course,

607
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna sneak in a break when we come back.

608
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: My interview with Tim Winer. It is terrific, all right.

609
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: He was in a remote location in Vermont, so the

610
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: audio is you know, we need more broad band in

611
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: rural America, folks, but it's look, he's worth the interview.

612
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: I know the audio is going to be a little

613
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: bit different than you're normally used to, but trust me,

614
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 1: it's a good interview. I really think it's worth your time.

615
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: So take a listen, enjoy the break, and when we

616
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: come back after it, I got a little sports update

617
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: for you and I'll do some questions. Joining me now

618
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: is one of the most prolific reporters authors when it

619
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: comes to the world of intelligence. Tim Weiner has written

620
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: extensively about the inner workings of the American intelligence community

621
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: in general, the CIA specifically. And I have him on

622
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: today because he's got a new book on the CIA

623
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: sort of in What Is the Mission in the twenty

624
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: first Century? In this post nine to eleven world, he

625
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: spoke to six the six CIA directors that have had

626
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: have been running the agency in the twenty first century.

627
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: It is a terrific book. In it, we're I feel

628
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: like we're constantly trying to figure out what is the

629
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: mission of the CIA, what should their role be in defense,

630
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: in intelligence and everything, and it it isn't something that

631
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: actually we seem to I feel like every decade it

632
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: slightly changes, and I think it's fair to say we're

633
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: in another one of these transition periods. And Tim's book

634
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: does a good job of sort of setting that predicate

635
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: and Tim joins me, now, good to see you, hi, Shot.

636
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: So look, you've you've, like I said, you've reported on

637
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: the agency for decades. This feels like you're trying to

638
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: and this goes to it. I guess we've been trying

639
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: to figure this out for other parts of the government

640
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: since the fall of the Berlin Wall. But is the

641
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: CIA still looking to figure out what its role is

642
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: post Cold War? I mean, is it is this still?

643
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: Does this still go back to not figuring out what

644
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: is what is the role of the CIA in a

645
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: post Cold War world?

646
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: Let's remember that the CIA is an instrument of American

647
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: foreign policy. It is an executor of American foreign policy.

648
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 2: With the rare exception, it does what the president wants

649
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: it to do. Every president. It's the cis foundation that

650
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: forty seven trewman the trucks. He used and abused the

651
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: CIA in ways that it is desires his deepest desires,

652
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: his I in foreign policy. If you want to know

653
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: what the president really wants and really take go to

654
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: the CIA and you go at them what they're up to.

655
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 2: You go mean, they're clacked records, which needs to be

656
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: fairly belluminantan no longer you talk to them. The mission

657
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: of the CIA from its creation Partwood, its core mission

658
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 2: spion art no thy enemy, Sunsu wrote in the Art

659
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: of War, and then one hundred ballants will not be defeated.

660
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: After nine eleven, counter terrorism swamped everything for fifteen years.

661
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: Espionage it's swamped counterintelligence, which is spy cascading starting against

662
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: enemy penetrations of the government of state. And that was not,

663
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: in the long run a good thing. And the espionage

664
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: mission didn't really get revived until about eight years ago.

665
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: I'd talk about that later in the show.

666
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: You know that to me is what's striking about the

667
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: CIA in the twenty first century, is it It seemed

668
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: to for a period of time, And I'm curious if

669
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: you think it's still this way now. It became almost

670
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: not just an arm of the military, but it developed

671
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: its own military wing.

672
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: No, well, the CIA has always had what was once

673
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: a small powamilitary. In the immediate aftermath of nine to eleven,

674
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: counter terrorism and paramilitary operations dominated CIA. Counter terrorism budget

675
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: CIA multiplied ten bold, thousands of people were added, mostly

676
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: ex military, and you know, it went out to destroy

677
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: the enemy. George Bush ordered the CIA to construct secret

678
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: prison to inflict tortures on its prisoners, and to kill

679
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 2: the entity. The CIA was never created to do any

680
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: of that. You know. I interviewed the guy who was

681
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 2: put in come to constructing the secret prison system on

682
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: the record, as all the interviews in the book are,

683
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: and he said, you know, we're not jailors. We didn't

684
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 2: have enough people who spoke Arabic, much less knew how

685
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: to do an interrogation. The only killed interrogator they could

686
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: find had been harshly disciplined for misconduct in teaching the

687
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: contours in Central America how to torture back in the

688
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties. Not good instructor, you know, for for your

689
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: recruits in detail to run a secret prison system. And

690
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: the other thing is they do this would not stay secret.

691
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: It's very hard to keep a secret in America. Preparing

692
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: and they knew they would be caught violating the laws

693
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: of God and man, not to mention the Geneva Convention,

694
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: and they knew that they would take it in the net,

695
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: not the president who ordered.

696
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: Them, And that's what happened. I mean, you know, I

697
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: mean it in some ways, And would you say they

698
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: have they dismantled all of these secret prisons. Are they

699
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 1: out of this business?

700
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: Now? Obama ordered the secret prisons dismantled and sent the

701
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: CIA in a different direction. He figured it was better

702
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: to kill people than to capture them, and he mightily

703
00:44:55,239 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 2: stepped up the drone war for the first bod his presidency.

704
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: Now there's a criticism of that, wasn't there that by

705
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: killing these folks, you were By killing these folks rather

706
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: than capturing them, you were you were potentially eliminating intelligence assets.

707
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: But the CI. But at the same time, the CI

708
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: station in Islamabad, Pakistan was recruiting al Ata has despired

709
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: recruiting members of all Kate and that help not torture

710
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: cow The CI count its way where in about about

711
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: Pakistan uh in twenty eleven. Yeah, Obama dismantled the secret

712
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: prisons and Mike Hayden, who was the director of the

713
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 2: CIA hundred bush. Then you know quite eloquently the next

714
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: president wants the water board. A prisoner had better bring

715
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: his own bucket. They all need that.

716
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 1: So there's real regret, there's real regret at the CIA

717
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: over over those first over those tactics in the first

718
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 1: eight years after.

719
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 3: NATA were correct is not the word I would. They'll

720
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: live with it, Okay, that's I get that.

721
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know when you sign up at the

722
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: CIA that that's part of the the deal. But and

723
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: I get you say they'll live with it, but they

724
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: know and how, but they'll never do it again.

725
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: Well none onless the President of the United States order

726
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 2: some to do it. And I have to say that

727
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 2: weeks a very dangerous place right now. Uh, the people

728
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: Trump has put in charge of American national here do

729
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: a crap, Pops and Pool. You've got Pete White Christian

730
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: nationalists and not arably watch Fox News host running the Pentagon.

731
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: It had just doesn't know how to run the Pentagon.

732
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: You've got the conspiracy theorist and you know, orderline nutcase

733
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: Pelti Gabbard running the Director of Natural Intelligence, which oversees

734
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: all seventeen US intelligence agency. H do you want to

735
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: Obama running the CIA at a time when it was

736
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: uncovering Russian election interference to help Trump in twenty sixteen.

737
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: Over the FBI, You've got the right wing podcaster and

738
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: MAGA soldier Ash Patel, who is running Perhaps the right

739
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 2: word is ruining the FBI dismantling its intelligence and Natural

740
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 2: Security divisions and firing everybody who was involved in investigating

741
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:17,919
Speaker 2: the Russian This is madness. And at the CIA you've

742
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: got Jon Rador. Now. Radcliffe was a three term Texas congressman,

743
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: former personal injury lawyer who had briefly served on the

744
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: House Intelligence Committee. When Trump saw m on Fox defending

745
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: him against the so called Russia hopes, and he liked

746
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: to cut a gym, and so for eight months and

747
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, he made him the Director of Natural Intelligence.

748
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: In those eight months at the end of Trump's first term,

749
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 2: Radcliffe spent all his time distorting and twisting intelligence reportant

750
00:48:55,239 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: to absolve the Russians of trying to help Trump, cutting

751
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: off intelligence reporting on the Russian Congress, and generally telling

752
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 2: Trump anything he wanted to hear and not telling him

753
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 2: things that he didn't want to hear. He's doing much

754
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 2: the same as the I director, and much worse.

755
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: Who is the ultimate filter of this information to Trump

756
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: right now? Is it d N I. Gabbard or is

757
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: it CIA Chief Rackliff.

758
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: Well, both of them? The Director of Natural Intelligence and

759
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: basically of bureaucracy that oversees days and as you know,

760
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 2: Chuck and Alcid observer things in Washington oversided the two

761
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: faith word it means to actually, you know, conduct oversight,

762
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: and it means to overlook things and not conduct them.

763
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 2: And so TIA does you know heavy lifting in uh,

764
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: gathering intelligence and analyzed and intelligence and gathered. Unfortunately, it's

765
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: the filter for the president's gay breath, which you know

766
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: was the holiest of holmes at the CIA. It's the

767
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: briefing that the president gets supposedly every morning. Were Trump

768
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: doesn't do intelligence right, and he cureinly doesn't read intelligence briefings.

769
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: And when he talks about intelligence, he usually puts it in

770
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: a scare quote, right, And uh, you know at root

771
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,959
Speaker 2: of this, Jock, is that Trump is an ideologue. Ideology

772
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: is the enemy of intelligence. If you are an ideologue, right,

773
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: you don't care what the way.

774
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: That's the enemy of journal I always say it's the

775
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: enemy of journalism because we're in the same business as

776
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: the CIA. It's funny, I'm I'm actually working with an

777
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: organization call Trust in Media that is not just journalists,

778
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 1: but it's actually two former CIA agents, former State Department.

779
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: Because the issue is good information and there is a

780
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: real concern what I have found and I'm sure you

781
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: found in your book, but I'd love for you to

782
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: explain this that among the rank and file Intel gathers,

783
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: the people that have that work through, that worked in

784
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: both the Bush era and the Obama era and were

785
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: held over in some cases into the Trump era. They're alarmed,

786
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: and they're very right, they're totally alarmed that there is

787
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: no longer you know that, you know the accusations of

788
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: political bias that the CIA come with every administration, but

789
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: it is now, it is now actionable, right it is.

790
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 1: It has gone to another level of political interference. And

791
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: they have a real fear that our political leaders are

792
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: not going to get unvarnished information from the intelligence community

793
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: in the same way we've seen what happens when the

794
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: American electorate doesn't get straightforward, unvarnished information without an ideological

795
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: tilt to it, and what happens to the information ecosystem.

796
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: This is a huge problem right now in our in

797
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: our system.

798
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: Because Trump has appointed Mata acolyte to run the instruence

799
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: of American National Security. None of them want to, you know,

800
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 2: don't make Daddy mad, don't tell them things he doesn't

801
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 2: want to hear, are twisting and distorting the intelligence reporting

802
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:49,359
Speaker 2: that is coming from the racket file. Their amateurishness, their

803
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 2: faulty to Trump increases the risk of a catastrophic intelligence

804
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: stature and the risk of another surprise on the United

805
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 2: States at home abroad. Let me ask you a rhetorkey questions, Scott.

806
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: Let me ans script here, what do you think Trump

807
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: would do if the United States were hit again?

808
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: Blame somebody else number one, probably blame find a political

809
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: enemy to blame internally. I mean, I you know, he

810
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't let it go, I think I. I mean, look

811
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: what he's doing now, right, he's using Look what he's

812
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: doing to the census today. All right, we're taping on

813
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: August seventh, on a Thursday. This is going to be

814
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: dropping Monday, so we were tapping about three days before

815
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: this is going to drop on my feed. But he

816
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: wants to essentially renumber the census, right, you know, he

817
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,879
Speaker 1: wants to because he is claiming without evidence in order

818
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: to support what he did at BLS. Hey, all of

819
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: this is manipulated. Everything government does is manipulate, right, So

820
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: it's sort of a bit of a power grap And

821
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: if we got hit again. You know, it's pretty clear.

822
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: You know, they don't let you, don't let anything get

823
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,879
Speaker 1: in the way of the of the ability to sort

824
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: of concentrate power. So I think they'd see it as

825
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: an opportunity to concentrate more power.

826
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: I think he would declare martial law. And I also

827
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 2: think he would cancel the upcoming election. That's it would

828
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 2: declare his pandom natural emergency in which he could rule

829
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: as well.

830
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: Look, he's threatening already with d C. Look what he's

831
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: story with d C. So this is a you know,

832
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: it is it mattered what he's the rhetoric about DC matters,

833
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: because once you open that door in DC, you open

834
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,280
Speaker 1: the door with what you're talking about.

835
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: Could that happen? And I cannot stretch strongly enough that

836
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 2: the chaos that Trump has created in the American intelligence

837
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: piece is the pit of the surprise attack of bolt

838
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: from the Blue at home or abroad. If that happens

839
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 2: and Trump declares himself the supreme eat, we are at

840
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 2: the end of our nearly two hundred and fifty years

841
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: experiment in American democracy. Chut My mom grew up in

842
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:35,959
Speaker 2: Hitler's German and she made it up of Skinberte, and

843
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 2: I don't want my daughter to have to face that terrible,

844
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 2: terrible prep.

845
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 1: Let's talk about why we're likely to miss the warning

846
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: on something like this. What you've just described about the

847
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: CIA and our intelligence community isn't just your assessment. I'm

848
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: gonna guess it's the assessment of Masad. It's the assessment

849
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: of I six And you know where I'm going here,

850
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: which means I assume the intelligent sharing operations that have

851
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: been so crucial to intelligence gathering for the CIA for decades,

852
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: I assume it's at risk right now because there is

853
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: concern that he could manipulate what they give them, that

854
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: it could get leaked, that it could not get that

855
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: it could get misused. So how blind do you let

856
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: me ask you this, how blind our rank and file

857
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: CIA intel gatherers feeling right now when it comes to

858
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: our supposed best intel allies, and I'm talking about Israel

859
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: and the Five Eyes.

860
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to paint an apocalyptic picture here, because.

861
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: Well, martial law martial law for the midterms kind of

862
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: was apocalyptic there, tim.

863
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 2: Yes, But I don't want to want sure the intelligence

864
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: the relationship that exists between the CIA and its trusted

865
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: foreign allies, which includes countries that you would not pick

866
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 2: up as American allies on the top of your head.

867
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: The relationships between a CIA station chief in a foreign

868
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: capital and his foreign counterpart hand the lahn understurbed, even

869
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 2: if above ground diplomatic relationships are crumbling and harsh words

870
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: are being sproken between that country's leader and president or

871
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 2: United States. However, the CIA relies Michael as does the

872
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 2: United States on those alliances because born intelligence, the GIA

873
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: cannot do its job without its liaison with foreign intel services.

874
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: The CI does not have enough people, enough language skills,

875
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 2: enough country knowledge to cover the entire planet. So if

876
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: something really dangerous is happening in Jordan or Pakistan, it

877
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 2: relies on its liaisons, as they are at times with

878
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 2: the host intelligence service. Now let us say that you

879
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: are the head of the BND, the German intelligence and

880
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 2: you are perceiving correctly because this is happening right now,

881
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 2: that Putin is waging a war of sabotage and subversion

882
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 2: in Western Europe, and you've got some good sorting funds

883
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: recruited Russian Are you going to share recruited Russians intelligence

884
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: with Pelsey Gabbard, who is a putent apolitics, you would

885
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 2: think twice about doing this. And you know there are

886
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: roadblocks in this two way street now, and that increases

887
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 2: the danger for being that state, as does you know

888
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: Trump's rupturing of relations with the nation to NATO. Right,

889
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 2: what Trump has done in books short months is to

890
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: take a wrecking ball. The architecture of American national security

891
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 2: was built over the court of eighty World War two,

892
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 2: with one of its primary purposes being keeping the Russians

893
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 2: from attacking arrest of the world. The Russians are attacked

894
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 2: the nations of Europe. They are conducting assassination, they are

895
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: conducting political warfare, they are conducting information warfare, and they

896
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 2: are conducting actual lacks of sabotage on information infrastructure in Europe.

897
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 2: If Vladimir Putin is allowed to keep one square inch

898
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 2: of Ukrainer, yeah, you will not stop there. He will

899
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: move westward. And the United States is you know, essentially

900
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: withdrawing moral, political, financial, and military from the nations of

901
01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: Europe to prevent that. That's World War three, Betty, No.

902
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: I mean, look, if he gets a piece of Ukraine,

903
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: He's going to Lithuania, latvi Estonia, one of them, maybe

904
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 1: all of them next and that's going to be the

905
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: real test of Article five, right, But the real test

906
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: of Article five is going to be those three Balkan countries,

907
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: those first three, right. And you know, I'll never forget

908
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson going on a rant once, an anti NATO rant,

909
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: and he said, our American soldier is going to die

910
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: for Estonians. And I thought, well, that's what treaties are about.

911
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: And we signed the treaty.

912
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 2: And let's remind people that Article five is a fundamental

913
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 2: principle of NATO, so that an attack on one is

914
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 2: an attack on all. And when the United States was

915
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 2: attacked on September eleventh, the nations of the NATO, you know,

916
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 2: put it on their boots and put those boots on

917
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 2: the ground in Afghanistan and then hit the ruck and

918
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: came in the defense of the Nunited States.

919
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 1: By the way, speaking of you, called her a Putin apologist.

920
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: And I had another source tell me that if you

921
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 1: were the Russians, you and you wanted an asset in

922
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: in the US government, that the single best listening post

923
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: to have an asset would be DNA.

924
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 2: A lot of journalists, diplomat, spies, and other interested parties

925
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 2: how to spend a lot of the past decade wondering

926
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: about the relationship of Trump. What is this strange bromance?

927
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 2: Does Trump like Putin because he wants to be like Putin?

928
01:02:54,600 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: That is government's an autocrat? You know? Do the Russians

929
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 2: have something on Trump called promot from some time? And

930
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 2: unless the intelligence archons brush are opened at some point

931
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 2: in the future and there's a big boulder in it

932
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: labeled b Trump, we're not going to know the answer

933
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: that question. But in a way, the question now answers himself.

934
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 2: Trump has not been Pudent's agent. He's been Putin's ally, right,

935
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 2: And you know, somebody evidently got to him a couple

936
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 2: of weeks ago and said, you know, you really have

937
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 2: to man up again, Pudin, because he's been leading you

938
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 2: around the nose by the nose for the last sevil year.

939
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 2: And so you know, nowsum, we'll believe Trump and Fuodin

940
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 2: are going to sit down and Trump is going to

941
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 2: say this warned to end, and Food is going to say,

942
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 2: you know, stop people, thank you very much. Uh, there's

943
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:12,480
Speaker 2: the door. You don't think he.

944
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: Gives them like a two week cease fire. I think

945
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 1: he hands him like a like a two weeks cease

946
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 1: fire and then it and then it, you know, something

947
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: like that, like something uh a fig leaf.

948
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 2: Uh. And U I learned a long time ago that

949
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 2: he who lives by the crystal ball wing broken blood.

950
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 2: You're right, Uh, But but you asked me about celto gathering.

951
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 1: Yep.

952
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 2: There is a term of art in the American intelligence

953
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 2: and the CI, which is agent of influence. Now, an

954
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 2: agent of influence does not have to be a recruited

955
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 2: agent in the in the pay of a how style intelligence.

956
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 2: An agent of influence is someone who acts, who advance

957
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 2: the foreign policies or political goals of a foreign power. Right,

958
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 2: don't you know, Chelsea Gabbert will not be photographed taking

959
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 2: a briefcape full of frimlin gold under a bridge in

960
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 2: Piena at midnight.

961
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: But she will be photographed meeting with a sad in Damascus,

962
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 1: just saying yeah.

963
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 2: It is very dangerous to have someone that unbalanced mm

964
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 2: hm in charge of what is, on paper, the most

965
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 2: politically influential American intelligence operation. And now we have the

966
01:05:55,080 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 2: spectacle of Celtic Gabert, John Ratcliffe, CIA and Caspitel at FBI,

967
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: following the president's orders, did gin up a prosecution at

968
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 2: the Justice Department of not only the CIA officers and

969
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 2: Intel director who oversaw the irreputable report about the liaisons

970
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 2: between Team Trump and Team Putin during twenty sixteen, but

971
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 2: also to prosecute the President of the United States at

972
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 2: the time, Barack Obama, well is CI director John Brennan,

973
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 2: and possibly any number of CIA officers and FBI eight.

974
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 2: As my friend Garrick Rafts, the great journalists and author,

975
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 2: often says, if he saw that happening in another country,

976
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 2: what would you call it?

977
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 1: What would you call it?

978
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 2: A political warfare operation run by an autocratic guest?

979
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this. There is one person

980
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: in the Trump national security team who co authored a

981
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: report about Russian interference at the Senate Intel Committee, who

982
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: genuinely knows that Tulsea Gabbert and John Ratcliffe are totally

983
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: completely unqualified for the positions that they have. Is he

984
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: the only hope If you were an ahead of the

985
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: MI six and you really needed to get something in

986
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 1: the United States, and you didn't trust the CIA and

987
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 1: you didn't trust Gabbert, do you go to Marco Rubio?

988
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 1: You see the last bastion of potential truth in Trump's

989
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: ear or not. Well, Duck, I never covered politics, and

990
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: you have so correct me if I'm getting a quotation raw.

991
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: But I believe that the late great Governor pets and

992
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 1: Rick Keegs once instead of uh, President George Hubert walker

993
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 1: Bush when he was running for president.

994
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, at John much the manhood in the blind truck.

995
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 1: Maria Bell, Yes, it's it's an alzheimer. It's an Alzheimer's. Yeah,

996
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: all right, if anybody wants to go on YouTube, it's funny,

997
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:31,560
Speaker 1: It's hilarious.

998
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,520
Speaker 2: Poor Joel Rubio, who knows.

999
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:39,639
Speaker 4: Better, Yeah, has put in his manhood in the blind

1000
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 4: trust and given Dome Frump the key to the safe

1001
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 4: where that blind trust is filed.

1002
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

1003
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 2: It is hard to expect that a man who does

1004
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 2: know better has presided over the destruction of the US

1005
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: Agency for Interacting Development, which was the most powerful foreign

1006
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:15,480
Speaker 2: policy tool the United States has ever wielded, has presided

1007
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 2: over ideological purchase of the State Department, has put a

1008
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 2: spokesman in place who belonged on North Korean state telemension,

1009
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 2: and is putting what is left of the reputation of

1010
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: the United States abroad at the deepest risk. You know what,

1011
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 2: if I were an ambassador or born intelligence chief and

1012
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 2: I wanted to back channel something into the contexts of

1013
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 2: the American government, I just give it to my friendly

1014
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 2: local CI station chief. I would certainly not give it

1015
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 2: to any memor member of Trump's cabinet or inner circle.

1016
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that. Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking because

1017
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 1: you're basically outlining that we have all these blind spots

1018
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: now because of political the politicization of the intel world.

1019
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:20,599
Speaker 1: And you know what would be the way, you know what,

1020
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: is there any way for good intelligence to make it

1021
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 1: through the system so that good actors could act responsibly.

1022
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,240
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is it's unclear that there may

1023
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 1: not be a way to get good actional intelligence in

1024
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,480
Speaker 1: front of rational actors.

1025
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 2: That essential part of the American national securities is being

1026
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 2: deliberately broken by Donald Trump, his cabinet and his CIA.

1027
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 2: You know, I wasn't raised by jetsamen, but the Jesuits

1028
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 2: teach you that there's two kinds of aor in the world.

1029
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:16,640
Speaker 2: There's invincible ignorance and invincible ignorance. And invincible ignorance there

1030
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 2: is the stuff, you know, you're not ever really gonna know.

1031
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 2: God works in serious ways to fall in the world.

1032
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 2: But vincible agor is the stuff that you do know,

1033
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,679
Speaker 2: you need to know, but you don't want to know. Yeah,

1034
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 2: because it's too unpleasant, too harsh, because it bumps up

1035
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 2: against your preconception. And that kind of ignorance goes a

1036
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:47,639
Speaker 2: long way to explaining why we were in Vietnam, why

1037
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 2: we were in Iraq, and what lies ahead for the

1038
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:01,480
Speaker 2: government of the United States. It's natural to jurity establishment

1039
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 2: and it's an intelligence community. You've got a president who

1040
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 2: is wilkilly ignorant, who doesn't want to know, and who

1041
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 2: despises and disdains the CIA because it is, in his

1042
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,759
Speaker 2: mind the capital of deep state.

1043
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:24,639
Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't like the CIA for the same

1044
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 1: reason he doesn't like journalists. We surface, we surface uncomfortable truth.

1045
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 2: You make. You make an excellent point there, jeh. I mean, yes, yeah,

1046
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 2: there is an affinity between the CIA offerture over thieves

1047
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:46,520
Speaker 2: and the foreign courts bond overseas.

1048
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 1: That's why the joke is some of us in media,

1049
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: are we getting recruited by the CIA or not?

1050
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 2: Right?

1051
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 1: Like, it's not that reporters are actually have the skill

1052
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:56,759
Speaker 1: set in theory.

1053
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 2: Okay, well, since nineteen seventy seven I had not been

1054
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 2: allowed to recruit foreign journals. I can take one or

1055
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:06,759
Speaker 2: two over the decade to kind of recruit them films.

1056
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 2: But that's another seat.

1057
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 1: Enough.

1058
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 2: We both want to molt secrets the spy and bribe.

1059
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:19,759
Speaker 2: We both want to and I'm quoting dak Field Hammett

1060
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 2: here the multi s falcon lit the lid off like

1061
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 2: that look inside of the work. We both can you know,

1062
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:36,640
Speaker 2: parachute into a foreign capital like Cartoon or Tobble and

1063
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 2: say take me to your leader, and likely is not

1064
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 2: we will be taken to the leader. This is good.

1065
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:50,679
Speaker 2: They're the roads diverge. Okay. The CIA pays handsomely, very

1066
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 2: handsomely for information. We don't unless you know we're crooked,

1067
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:03,480
Speaker 2: and most of us are not. The CIA is recruiting

1068
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 2: for an agent to you know, enter into a criminal

1069
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:11,719
Speaker 2: conspiracy to commit treason. We just want, you know, enough

1070
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 2: facts to write a decent story. Right and uh, but

1071
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 2: I have found that the the you know, small but

1072
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:28,839
Speaker 2: significant ben diagram between what spies do and what journalists

1073
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 2: dout has helped me, you know, over the years, conduct

1074
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:38,839
Speaker 2: hundreds of on the record interviews with u C I officer,

1075
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 2: c I analy C I veterans BI director. And you

1076
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,920
Speaker 2: know this is not some meat trick. Uh, this is

1077
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 2: just you know, good journalism. If people are on the record, yep,

1078
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 2: they're much less likely to fudge or to play or

1079
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 2: to concoct, okay, because their name is attached to what

1080
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:09,600
Speaker 2: they said. I haven't been a Washington journalist since the

1081
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 2: late twentieth century, and I find that, you know, if

1082
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 2: you're on deadline, if you're working for the New York

1083
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 2: Times or Washington Posts, yeah, off the record or background instance, okay,

1084
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 2: but not if you're writing a book, right, okay, and

1085
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:31,120
Speaker 2: you're playing the long game. Why should you reader trust me?

1086
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 2: If you writing a book with off the record, you know, source.

1087
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 1: It.

1088
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 2: To work as to work in this realm, coin is

1089
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:50,479
Speaker 2: the only sorry, I repeat myself, no.

1090
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 1: Of course I know where you're going.

1091
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, to work in this realm. Grus is the only Curtesy, right, okay.

1092
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 2: And you know I've been doing this for light going

1093
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 2: on forty years now. Yeah, by my youthful appearance, and

1094
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 2: uh uh, you hang around long enough, people start to

1095
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 2: trust you.

1096
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:12,559
Speaker 1: That's right.

1097
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 2: Now.

1098
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: This is why I think your book is is so

1099
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: is you know, going to be gobbled up not just

1100
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 1: by uh folks like myself, but actual CIA agents too.

1101
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:27,599
Speaker 1: They want to see the In some ways, you're helping

1102
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 1: to paint a bigger picture. They're they're in their own departments,

1103
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 1: they're in their own silos. You're, you're, you're, you're in

1104
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 1: some ways probably showing them the larger picture that they

1105
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:39,400
Speaker 1: don't get to see every day.

1106
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 2: I note with pleasures as we speak, the book is

1107
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 2: number three on the bestseller list of New York Times

1108
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 2: Listen to Starships.

1109
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:51,920
Speaker 1: Well hopefully it's number one by the time we dropped.

1110
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 1: We dropped this podcast.

1111
01:16:54,040 --> 01:17:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not happen. Uh. The both the left and

1112
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:08,559
Speaker 2: the right and the center for that matter, have a

1113
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 2: very distorted picture of what the CIA is and what

1114
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 2: it does and how it works. It's not like in

1115
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:20,719
Speaker 2: the movie and TV it. You know, your average CIA

1116
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 2: officer does not perps in regret, you know, applying to

1117
01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 2: a foreign capital of French quote Ava Martini, make love,

1118
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 2: overthrow the government and leave on the Midnight book. That's

1119
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:42,200
Speaker 2: not how it works. The mission of the CIA is

1120
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 2: to figure out what's happening in the world. Okay, that

1121
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 2: is a vital function. And if the CIA in its reported,

1122
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 2: and of course they had made catastrophic mistakes in the past,

1123
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,599
Speaker 2: as we all know, you know by saying, for example,

1124
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 2: it's that I'm staying had uh you know our toolm

1125
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 2: brickling weapons of mass destruction, and you know the stench

1126
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 2: of that lasted for a long time. But if the

1127
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:26,799
Speaker 2: CIA in its reporting tells the president something terrible has happened,

1128
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:30,639
Speaker 2: something terrible is likely to happen in the not dis

1129
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 2: in the future, and the president of the bull kit,

1130
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 2: I don't believe it. If the CIA is not believed,

1131
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 2: it has no purfect right. And you know, uh, substantial

1132
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 2: risks are taken in trying to gather information over seasons,

1133
01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 2: Risks to the recruited agents, risks to the officers themselves

1134
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 2: at the dirty, typicult, dangerous business. And you're going to

1135
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 2: get burned from ton. But if you're a superpower, you

1136
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 2: need an intelligence service to look over the horizons, and

1137
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:23,280
Speaker 2: it anticipates surprise, and if you don't have that, you're

1138
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 2: gonna get surprised.

1139
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,799
Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time on Russia and Europe.

1140
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:35,480
Speaker 1: How you know, one of the concerns over The last

1141
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 1: one of the concerns, for instance, in the Middle East

1142
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,759
Speaker 1: was do we have enough human resources, human intelligence in Iran,

1143
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,720
Speaker 1: human intelligence in the Middle East. Well, let me ask

1144
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 1: the same question about China.

1145
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,280
Speaker 2: How how.

1146
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 1: How wired in is the CIA with China compared to

1147
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 1: how wired it is in Russia. We clearly are well

1148
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:00,479
Speaker 1: wired in Russia. Look at I mean, I think, you know,

1149
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: the biggest win for the CIA in the last ten

1150
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:08,519
Speaker 1: years is you know, basically teleg you know, showing the

1151
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 1: world telling Zelenski. You know, you got to believe us.

1152
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:14,439
Speaker 1: Look at our intel here right, the the intel that

1153
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:17,519
Speaker 1: Russia was going to invade Ukraine is a is a

1154
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 1: win right for the for the intel community on this one.

1155
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. And and in the mission, I tell what I think, brother,

1156
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 2: you know, gripping story of how after the Russians monkey

1157
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 2: wrench in the twenty sixteen election, the head of the

1158
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 2: chief spy, the head the Clanderton service man named Tomas Rakutar,

1159
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 2: who reached with check, said, the Russians just manipulated our

1160
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 2: freaking election. How are we going to make sure this

1161
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 2: never happens again? And he ginned up a call to

1162
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 2: arms and the result for years later is that the

1163
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 2: CID Vladimir Futla's war plans out of the Kremlin.

1164
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 1: Right.

1165
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:01,880
Speaker 2: That is espionage, and that is the proopuse of epstinas.

1166
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 2: You know, you're envy shinner. In the first decade of

1167
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 2: this century, the CI built a remarkable network of recruited

1168
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:21,439
Speaker 2: foreign agents, recruited Chinese, probably a thirty Gilbert pay people

1169
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 2: who were up and coming rising stars in the Chinan's

1170
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 2: poet Buro, the Chinese military, the Chinese Communist Party, and

1171
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:36,679
Speaker 2: notably the Chinese Ministry of State secured their chief spot service.

1172
01:21:37,800 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 2: And they did this by recognizing how corrupt the Chinese

1173
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 2: political system was, and by paying their promotion kees broad

1174
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 2: that they had to pay to claw their way up

1175
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 2: the greasy poll. And these were substantial keys, you know,

1176
01:21:54,160 --> 01:22:00,240
Speaker 2: millions of dollars, and by roughly twenty ten they had

1177
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:06,519
Speaker 2: an agent network in China that was remarkable. One by

1178
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 2: one by.

1179
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 5: One, between twenty ten and twenty twelve, these people were

1180
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 5: identified by the Chinese, arrested, tortured, and killed, and the

1181
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:30,960
Speaker 5: camera intelligence people at CIA are still trying to set

1182
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 5: out how it happened, although they have two of the

1183
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 5: three pieces of the puzzle that they need.

1184
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:40,360
Speaker 1: This is ten years later and they still don't quite know.

1185
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 2: How they got intelligence investigation tape decades sometimes wow years

1186
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 2: years with the norm. And so gradually the CIA is

1187
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:03,320
Speaker 2: attempted to get back in the game in China because

1188
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 2: they long term will be our strongest addressary in the

1189
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:17,799
Speaker 2: twenty first century. Yeah, and win k Burtns, the CIA

1190
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:23,160
Speaker 2: director under Biden, established a very large China Mission center

1191
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four. The CIA

1192
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 2: hired a very large number of people, train them up,

1193
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 2: make sure they assible Chinese, and you know, put them

1194
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,400
Speaker 2: in the Chinese China Mission Center, go forth and smile

1195
01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 2: on China. When Radcliffe came into office, he summarily dismissed

1196
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,880
Speaker 2: everyone that CIA had hired and trained in twenty twenty

1197
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:52,640
Speaker 2: three and twenty twenty four because they were Biden hires

1198
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 2: and Elon musk Polding the cut five percent out of

1199
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:56,680
Speaker 2: if they.

1200
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 1: Were inside the two year whatever it was, so they

1201
01:23:58,800 --> 01:24:00,799
Speaker 1: could easily canary period.

1202
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 2: That's right now, Well, this is madness, Chuck, my god,

1203
01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 2: it is.

1204
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1205
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 2: Then he took their names, their true first names and

1206
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 2: first initials, all these people and sent them an unclassified

1207
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:22,160
Speaker 2: email to the White House and Elon Mutz and his

1208
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 2: doge brods, so he closed them all. Wow, and the

1209
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 2: doge bros are walking cardiffs. They are they do not

1210
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 2: have good op sec. You know, they do not have

1211
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 2: good hygiene when it comes to guarding against somebody. You know, think, hey,

1212
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,920
Speaker 2: bro on a LinkedIn, how would you like a really

1213
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 2: good job working from the X y G Corps? And

1214
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 2: they're Chinese spire.

1215
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 1: So what you're saying is DOSEE may have just provided

1216
01:24:55,400 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 1: the dose staffers that were all brought in by Mosque

1217
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:03,280
Speaker 1: may have essentially been the type of guys that like

1218
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:05,439
Speaker 1: come into a backyard and forget to shut the gate.

1219
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:11,560
Speaker 1: And they basically were they that easy marks for Chinese espionage.

1220
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 2: Each of them has a gigantic bullseye target on their back.

1221
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:15,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1222
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:20,879
Speaker 2: The Chinese have already penetrated all the US hell coms,

1223
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 2: the unclassified systems of the US government, and ten years

1224
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:31,760
Speaker 2: ago they broke into electronically the Office of Personnel Management

1225
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 2: and DC and stole the personnel files of everyone twenty

1226
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:38,360
Speaker 2: two and a half million people who worked for the government.

1227
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: Because my understanding, not just personnel, but I think even

1228
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 1: you and I are in that list because we've been

1229
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 1: credentialed by the federal government. If you've ever had a

1230
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:50,200
Speaker 1: credential from the Pentagon or the White House, I think

1231
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:51,480
Speaker 1: we're in those files.

1232
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:56,160
Speaker 2: But also in those files through security clearance forms of

1233
01:25:56,240 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 2: everybody who worths at CIA, okay, including packboard and information

1234
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 2: Kata burt true names. Okay. The Chinese took this incredible

1235
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 2: treasure trobe they uh uh cross indexed it with biometric

1236
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 2: data stolen from the world's international airports when you have

1237
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:24,160
Speaker 2: asport control. They gave it all to Alibaba. Ali Baba

1238
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:27,639
Speaker 2: crunched it. And now the CIA has a pretty good

1239
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 2: person self following everybody working for CIA. Okay. And if

1240
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 2: you are a CIA officer newly stationed abroad and you

1241
01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 2: are gathering your bags at the baggage carousel in a while,

1242
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:46,320
Speaker 2: the Doogu or Kuwhala, Lumpur or Beijing, likely enough a

1243
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:49,599
Speaker 2: Chinese intelligence officer to come right up, he sticks figuring

1244
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:55,680
Speaker 2: your chest and say, hey, show I know you are.

1245
01:26:55,720 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 1: We just have we penetrated the Chinese government effectively. I

1246
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,200
Speaker 1: mean I always assume whatever we're being done to us,

1247
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 1: we're doing to them.

1248
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:11,000
Speaker 2: What the Chin The short answer is no, and long

1249
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 2: answer is the Russians and the Chinese have two very

1250
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 2: different cultures and their intelligence. The Russians just want to

1251
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:25,919
Speaker 2: screw us, but the Chinese want to know us, okay,

1252
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 2: and their goal is to take the surveillance steake that

1253
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 2: they have established in China. Up on top of your head,

1254
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 2: how many GTTV cameras do you think there are in

1255
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,760
Speaker 2: China looking down at the.

1256
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:48,519
Speaker 1: I'd assume, just at any individual, probably ten, all over

1257
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 1: all over the country, right all about mainline China. How

1258
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:55,639
Speaker 1: many GGTV I'm going to assume millions, I mean probably

1259
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:58,599
Speaker 1: a million, half a billion, half a billion, even more.

1260
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:03,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, but g licis, plate readers, plus you know, eyeball stands,

1261
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,040
Speaker 2: plus you know, you go to pay something on your phone,

1262
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 2: they got your data, all.

1263
01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:10,520
Speaker 1: Right, Well you could say that about our contrade.

1264
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 2: What they want to do, What the Chinese want to

1265
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 2: do is to project their surveillance state into the United States. Okay.

1266
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 2: They've already stone not just the opposite personnel management files,

1267
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 2: the healthcare records, hundreds of millions of them per Anthem, okay,

1268
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 2: and a number of other data hauls. As I mentioned,

1269
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 2: they penetrated all the health comms, and what they want

1270
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 2: to do is if more conflict or crisis comes, they

1271
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:45,759
Speaker 2: want a complete information dominance. They want to see the enemy,

1272
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:50,720
Speaker 2: see the battlefield mapping, and they're well on the way

1273
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:58,880
Speaker 2: to that. Chuck and Trump has dismantled every single cybersecurity

1274
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 2: entity of the government that was set up after the

1275
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 2: Russian hack of the twenty sixteen election, dis medled them them. Okay,

1276
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 2: we are defenseless against this kind of thing because Trump

1277
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:16,120
Speaker 2: wants it that way, because those agencies.

1278
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,840
Speaker 1: Right upheld.

1279
01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 2: The true story of the cooperation between Team Trump and Tate,

1280
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:30,040
Speaker 2: Team Putin and the actions of Team Putin in the

1281
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 2: twenty sixth election. So narrative, the club is now attempting

1282
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:36,120
Speaker 2: the memory hole.

1283
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 1: So what does this do for us on cyber? I mean,

1284
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:54,080
Speaker 1: it's the CIA. Are they as forward leaning on cyber

1285
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:55,640
Speaker 1: as NSA is?

1286
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 2: Well? Any day is about is several multiples bigger than I.

1287
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 2: And they have the cyber Command they have lead CIA

1288
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 2: come up with a new sort of digital directorate that's

1289
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 2: now ten years old, and they are trying very hard

1290
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 2: to get up to speed. Okay. The trouble with it

1291
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 2: at the CIA is secrecy and compart petrolization. Okay, you

1292
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 2: know the CIA was criticized, and rightly so, for a

1293
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:41,040
Speaker 2: failure to share intelligence with IF friends and enemies at

1294
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 2: the FBI and elsewhere in the government before nine eleven.

1295
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:49,840
Speaker 2: So then after nine to eleven, the in Washington it's

1296
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 2: something goes from me go one hundred day experienced in

1297
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:57,679
Speaker 2: the other direction. The impetus was, then there's a need

1298
01:30:57,720 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 2: to tear, a need to share, not a need to know,

1299
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 2: but a need to share.

1300
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 6: Okay, well, how do you think you know, Julian Assange

1301
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 6: hacked into the classified systems of the government because of

1302
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:19,080
Speaker 6: a need to share, and he found, you know, a.

1303
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:27,920
Speaker 2: Army private Chelsea Manning, who you know naively did his

1304
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:31,559
Speaker 2: bidding and that was to be you know, as Thane

1305
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:35,440
Speaker 2: was a Russian agent. He has pleading guilty aspion architernatives.

1306
01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:40,719
Speaker 2: And that's an example of the need to share net work.

1307
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:47,519
Speaker 2: It's a fine line between the needs own need to share.

1308
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 2: But we're Americans. We're an open people. We love everybody,

1309
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:53,240
Speaker 2: we trust everybody.

1310
01:31:53,320 --> 01:32:00,000
Speaker 1: Right, you interviewed all six heads of the CIA, not Radcliffe.

1311
01:31:59,880 --> 01:32:03,680
Speaker 7: I assume right he wasn't added. The CIA w a

1312
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:07,640
Speaker 7: anything up that book. I got hit him into the epilogue,

1313
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 7: but no, Radcliffe doesn't do interview period.

1314
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 1: Who understood the mission best? I don't want to say

1315
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:20,400
Speaker 1: who was the best, but who understood the mission best?

1316
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:25,120
Speaker 1: Tenant Hayden, Panetta, Petraeus, Brennan, Gena haspell Bill Burns. Who

1317
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 1: do you feel like Burns? That's what I thought too.

1318
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 1: Burns feels like the perfect I'm glad you said it.

1319
01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:33,240
Speaker 1: I I didn't want to lead you. You said it,

1320
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: so now I am going to lead you. I mean,

1321
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 1: Burns might have been the best equipped I had the

1322
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 1: CIA in the moment we live in right now.

1323
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 2: In addition to being widely you know acknowledge is the

1324
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:50,520
Speaker 2: greatest American diplomat of the generation. Burns had been ambassador

1325
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 2: to Russia e fluent Russian, had been ambachored in Jordan's

1326
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:59,160
Speaker 2: fluent Arabic, had been the head of the State Department,

1327
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, Middle EU directorates, and the Deputy Secretary of State.

1328
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:11,519
Speaker 2: This is a man who nubs the world. And this

1329
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 2: is the man who realized that intelligence is not something

1330
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 2: necessarily to be hidden in a faith once it's obtained

1331
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 2: that intelligence is information and that information is power. And

1332
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:31,559
Speaker 2: when the CIA, after a four year remarkable effort that

1333
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:37,320
Speaker 2: details somewhat book lay in the mission Dold Glaimer Pruden's

1334
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 2: war plans out of the Kremlin. Burns said, we need

1335
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 2: to tell the world about it, right, okay, incredibly sensitive

1336
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:49,880
Speaker 2: secret intelligence that we have stolen from under Prutent's nods.

1337
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:53,679
Speaker 1: Let me Pauld you right, there would any other CIA

1338
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:57,599
Speaker 1: de head that you had interviewed over the years come

1339
01:33:57,640 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 1: to that conclusion that Burns came to. I mean, I

1340
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:03,760
Speaker 1: feel like pre Burns, if you've stole some that valuable,

1341
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 1: that the inclination of every other CIA head would be

1342
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:10,080
Speaker 1: keep it, keep it close.

1343
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:14,320
Speaker 2: Don't expect I'm gonna yes that Leon Panetta would have

1344
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 2: done it, done it weekly Panetta. One of Panetta's great

1345
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 2: advantages when he came to CIA under Obama was that

1346
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:26,520
Speaker 2: he had been a congressman, what eighteen terms.

1347
01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:29,879
Speaker 1: As we're the only only person to run the CIA

1348
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 1: who was an elected official at any point in time

1349
01:34:31,840 --> 01:34:35,560
Speaker 1: in his career John Radcliffe and now John Radcliffe of

1350
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 1: course and portered god oh right, was ghost yes country, Yes,

1351
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: I forgot about it. That was the pride of Florida.

1352
01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:49,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1353
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:52,559
Speaker 2: But you know, Panetta had also been White House Cheep,

1354
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:57,960
Speaker 2: the White House budget Director. He has UH in that

1355
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:04,240
Speaker 2: field political judge. Yeah, because of her perhaps despite about

1356
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 2: it experience, and you would have done it with a

1357
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:09,719
Speaker 2: big smile on his face.

1358
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:14,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's it, right, not betray us. I don't

1359
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:16,760
Speaker 1: take tenant right. Those guys don't do it right.

1360
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 2: You know, this is this is uh counter factuals. What

1361
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 2: might not have happened there? But Burns had Burns practiced

1362
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:38,360
Speaker 2: intelligence diplomas. You remember Evan Berchami, the Wall fut General reporter,

1363
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:42,080
Speaker 2: was in much of Britney gran here. Uh. The the

1364
01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 2: w went the eighth Star in prison in Russia, had

1365
01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:47,880
Speaker 2: a number of other political prisoners that boot held who

1366
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:52,960
Speaker 2: were released about a year ago. Uh, and flew back

1367
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:58,400
Speaker 2: to Dover and Biden and Kamala Harris were there. Burned

1368
01:35:58,400 --> 01:36:05,720
Speaker 2: to TI did that Yeah, bull stop So intelligence diplomacy,

1369
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:13,040
Speaker 2: intelligence that by uh an accomplished ship from that man.

1370
01:36:13,080 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 2: That's that's a high ideal. What we have now is

1371
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:26,759
Speaker 2: the reverse, uh, which is intelligence has politics, not diplomas.

1372
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me get you out of here on this.

1373
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:33,080
Speaker 1: And it's a it's a it's the boutique CIA issue

1374
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 1: for the conspiracy theorists. Why does the CIA fight the

1375
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:40,880
Speaker 1: release of these JFK files so much. I mean, I

1376
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:43,600
Speaker 1: have my thesis, but but why do they fight it

1377
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:45,320
Speaker 1: so much at this point?

1378
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:48,080
Speaker 2: Well, I can, I mean, I can tell you why

1379
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:54,000
Speaker 2: because those files contain the names and identities of recruited

1380
01:36:54,439 --> 01:37:00,320
Speaker 2: hurban agents. Okay, and the lap dune. There were a

1381
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 2: number of people a bill whom were still alive who

1382
01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:11,880
Speaker 2: got burned from that, and you know that's bad ju ju,

1383
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:20,000
Speaker 2: you don't do that. To answer the larger question, you

1384
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:24,000
Speaker 2: know that tenders of millions of Americas believed that the

1385
01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:29,600
Speaker 2: CIA killed JB. Yeah, it's fat that they believed that.

1386
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:36,639
Speaker 2: And the reason they believed that is that not long

1387
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:43,960
Speaker 2: after the assassination of President Kennedy, the KGB put out elaborate,

1388
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:48,640
Speaker 2: reconstructed disinformation that appeared person foreign papers and the American

1389
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:53,160
Speaker 2: papers that the CIA did kill JFK and was part of,

1390
01:37:53,439 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 2: you know, a massive conspiracy to do so uncovered up.

1391
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:02,760
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty seven, Pack the Wollan's restrict attorney named

1392
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:09,200
Speaker 2: Jim Garrison prosecuted and persecuted a New Orleans businessman who

1393
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:12,400
Speaker 2: had once or twice's been the Greek by the Iopa

1394
01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:16,559
Speaker 2: seas and said, you know, he had conspired with osbal

1395
01:38:16,720 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 2: killed every Well, the jury threw that out about fay

1396
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 2: two minutes. And then twenty five years later OLIVERT. Stone

1397
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:24,720
Speaker 2: made a move and.

1398
01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 1: Put day Garrison in it. By the way, Yeah, he

1399
01:38:28,240 --> 01:38:28,640
Speaker 1: played the.

1400
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:33,760
Speaker 2: Judge with millions in American saw and Congress's reaction was,

1401
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:35,960
Speaker 2: we had to release all these files because there may

1402
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:39,719
Speaker 2: be some dark, terrible secret hidden in them. American people

1403
01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:44,280
Speaker 2: need to know. I once to put this question to

1404
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 2: Richard held who u was the CIS director from nineteen

1405
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:55,760
Speaker 2: sixty sixt in nineteen w three and the head of

1406
01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:58,960
Speaker 2: its Plants and Service at the time of the JFKs.

1407
01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:03,800
Speaker 2: And he says, well, you come to a court in

1408
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:10,519
Speaker 2: the room. Either you believe that Lee Harvey Oswalder trained

1409
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:14,439
Speaker 2: marine marksman not off a million to one shot, or

1410
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:18,400
Speaker 2: you believe that the intelligence services of the Soviet Union

1411
01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:21,719
Speaker 2: and Cuba conspired to capitate the government of the United

1412
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:27,120
Speaker 2: States by killing its president. It's one or the other.

1413
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:31,400
Speaker 2: The CIA, during the course of the Cold War, after

1414
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 2: committed many mistines, almost all of them at the beads

1415
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:40,679
Speaker 2: of President. I mean, do you think that a couple

1416
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:43,000
Speaker 2: of CI offered FOP were sitting around in a kind

1417
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:46,640
Speaker 2: of a mad man setting in nineteen sixty having their

1418
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:49,639
Speaker 2: second or third Martiginis, and one of them said, Hey,

1419
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 2: I have a good idea. Let's go to the old cadel.

1420
01:39:56,360 --> 01:39:57,200
Speaker 2: That didn't happen.

1421
01:39:57,760 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 1: No, it was a residence.

1422
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:05,920
Speaker 2: Eisenhower and Kennedy and President Kennedy's brother Bobby Right bonded Fidel.

1423
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:18,439
Speaker 2: Conspiracy theories, Chuck, are gonna be a contributing factor to

1424
01:40:18,520 --> 01:40:22,679
Speaker 2: the death of American democracy should that terrible event. Company

1425
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 2: path conspiracy theories are in this country are not only

1426
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:37,040
Speaker 2: home grown, they are concocted by the intelligence services to

1427
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 2: Brussia and China, right, the Russians millions of this country,

1428
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 2: but millions of people in this country believe that the

1429
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 2: aged virus was manufactured in their laboratory run by the

1430
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 2: Army in Maryland. You know, put that story out a

1431
01:40:56,600 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 2: g okay. Millions of Americans believe it, and you cannot

1432
01:41:02,280 --> 01:41:10,920
Speaker 2: mon they We're people have no Please. You have a

1433
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 2: president today who, like Bladder, wants you to believe that

1434
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:19,560
Speaker 2: there are no facts and there is no truth. You

1435
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 2: might as well just give up. Yeah, that will be

1436
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 2: the death of it.

1437
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:27,760
Speaker 1: Well, the one theory that I wanted to throw by

1438
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:31,200
Speaker 1: you is that that the CIA is also petrified that

1439
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:34,760
Speaker 1: when you start pulling the thread on Oswald, and the

1440
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:37,760
Speaker 1: thread being they probably had him under surveillance, they kind

1441
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,000
Speaker 1: of knew a little something about them, but that it

1442
01:41:41,120 --> 01:41:45,520
Speaker 1: was almost, Oh, no, they're going to believe we were involved,

1443
01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:48,840
Speaker 1: and that there was a fear like it, like the

1444
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:52,920
Speaker 1: revert like it. They're gonna like, why weren't we on

1445
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:54,560
Speaker 1: top of this type of mindset?

1446
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:55,920
Speaker 6: Uh?

1447
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:57,800
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, we don't want they don't

1448
01:41:57,800 --> 01:41:59,559
Speaker 1: want everybody to know what the hell we were doing

1449
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:01,040
Speaker 1: in South America all the time.

1450
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 2: Of course it CEI had a file on Lee rb Us. Well,

1451
01:42:05,479 --> 01:42:13,679
Speaker 2: he was a marine who defected the Soviet Union, right exactly. Okay,

1452
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:18,519
Speaker 2: you know who screwed up. The FBI screwed up. The

1453
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 2: FBI should have had this man on the surveilance includes surveillance,

1454
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:29,160
Speaker 2: particularly after he went down to the US embassy, sorry,

1455
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:32,120
Speaker 2: and particularly after he went down in the Soviet embassy

1456
01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 2: in Mexico City trying to find a way out of

1457
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:41,040
Speaker 2: the United States. The FBI, thanks to the Mexican Secret Service,

1458
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:48,280
Speaker 2: had that embassy wired. Okay for the FBI and Jaggar Hoover.

1459
01:42:48,560 --> 01:42:54,400
Speaker 2: After the assassination disciplined I think it was nineteen FBI

1460
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:58,240
Speaker 2: agents and said that they were guilty of growth snag wars.

1461
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:02,880
Speaker 2: So you want to Blayne in and on Jen or

1462
01:43:02,920 --> 01:43:07,680
Speaker 2: Hoover in the FBI, who in their declassified files that

1463
01:43:07,720 --> 01:43:12,599
Speaker 2: I wrote about in Enemy's History in the FBI, UVU's

1464
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 2: like maya freaking Kulpaman, we blew up. But the CIA

1465
01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:21,800
Speaker 2: did not kill President Kenny, nor did it have a

1466
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:30,439
Speaker 2: hand in a conspiracy to cover up the real killer. Yeah.

1467
01:43:30,479 --> 01:43:34,640
Speaker 1: Look, it's uh, it's pretty clear that that they just it.

1468
01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 1: I think you just said it earlier. Best. We don't

1469
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:42,599
Speaker 1: keep secrets very well, and if this was some big secret,

1470
01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:45,000
Speaker 1: there'd be plenty of people out there selling it.

1471
01:43:45,520 --> 01:43:48,799
Speaker 2: And let us see. Ashion was an earlier history CIA

1472
01:43:49,680 --> 01:43:54,320
Speaker 2: that I wrote eighteen years ago with Waiting for Tree

1473
01:43:54,360 --> 01:43:57,680
Speaker 2: on the paperback bestseller was lived in the New York

1474
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:02,519
Speaker 2: Times Next week to Miracle. Uh. The epigraph for that

1475
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:06,280
Speaker 2: book is a quote from me tempteen satory play right

1476
01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:11,200
Speaker 2: Joan Racine, which is there are no secrets the time

1477
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 2: will not reveal.

1478
01:44:13,200 --> 01:44:18,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, Tim Winer. As you as you

1479
01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:21,640
Speaker 1: can tell, I'd keep going and going and going, and

1480
01:44:21,680 --> 01:44:24,080
Speaker 1: I think you would humor me, but at some point

1481
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:27,400
Speaker 1: I need to wrap it up. This is great. I

1482
01:44:27,439 --> 01:44:31,360
Speaker 1: really recommend this book because it is, you know, the CIA,

1483
01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:35,360
Speaker 1: what is its role? How much is political politics impacting it?

1484
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:39,280
Speaker 1: And how does it survive this moment? Right? I assume

1485
01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:42,439
Speaker 1: already you may be working on your next book on

1486
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 1: what the hell does the CIA look like? In four you.

1487
01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:48,000
Speaker 2: My wife is giving strict orders that I don't start

1488
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:51,960
Speaker 2: the next book until next year, so I'm chilling.

1489
01:44:52,360 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 1: Well, good luck trying to keep yourself away from observing

1490
01:44:55,360 --> 01:44:57,880
Speaker 1: what we're observing these days. Hey, Tim, this was great.

1491
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 1: Congrats by the way on the book. I mean, it's

1492
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:12,080
Speaker 1: so thank you for your patience on the audio with

1493
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 1: Tim Winer. Trust me, the book is great.

1494
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:14,880
Speaker 2: You know.

1495
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:19,559
Speaker 1: Look, he really is methodical about this. This guy's a journalist. Journalist.

1496
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:22,559
Speaker 1: He's such a pro. He's been doing this for so long,

1497
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it is. It's a few things

1498
01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:28,240
Speaker 1: that I took away from him that are kind of interesting.

1499
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:32,920
Speaker 1: I thought his take that just remember the CIA is

1500
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 1: always in arm of the whoever the president is, which

1501
01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:39,440
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting that ultimately a whatever the CIA's

1502
01:45:39,479 --> 01:45:42,280
Speaker 1: mandate almost always comes directly from their president, right, It's

1503
01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:44,639
Speaker 1: like they bypass everybody else. It's the one thing thing.

1504
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:46,559
Speaker 1: So I thought that was interesting. And when you actually

1505
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:48,960
Speaker 1: look back, you do sort of see that pattern there

1506
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:54,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. But the other, of course, is what

1507
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:56,559
Speaker 1: he had to say about about Russia and about Putin,

1508
01:45:56,600 --> 01:46:00,080
Speaker 1: and then the and then and then of our what

1509
01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 1: maybe what maybe our intelligence gaps with China. Anyway, I

1510
01:46:07,360 --> 01:46:11,200
Speaker 1: I enjoyed the book. It's it's a it's a it's

1511
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:12,720
Speaker 1: a thick read. But I mean that in a in

1512
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,640
Speaker 1: a good way. But ay, you know, and it was

1513
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:19,599
Speaker 1: interesting that he came to the conclusion that I had,

1514
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:22,719
Speaker 1: which is that Bill Burns he is somebody. I'm sorry

1515
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:26,120
Speaker 1: that that Trump only views everything through his myopic lens,

1516
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:31,120
Speaker 1: because Bill Burns should still be, say, a director, you

1517
01:46:31,160 --> 01:46:33,800
Speaker 1: have a guy who understands how Putin ticks better than

1518
01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:36,760
Speaker 1: sometimes Putin does not. Many people are that way, and

1519
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:40,000
Speaker 1: we've sidelined this guy anyway. Seems to be a huge

1520
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 1: missed opportunity. All Right, I've been ranting and raving about

1521
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:47,240
Speaker 1: my frustration about the Constitution and about about healthier so

1522
01:46:47,280 --> 01:46:50,080
Speaker 1: I thought i'd do a little bit of of a

1523
01:46:50,080 --> 01:46:54,559
Speaker 1: little bit of my own little sports talk here. Yes,

1524
01:46:54,640 --> 01:46:57,840
Speaker 1: I've been watching way too much preseason football. But here's

1525
01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:02,000
Speaker 1: the here's the only takeaway I have. And if there's

1526
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:04,599
Speaker 1: one theme with my two little sports nuggets today, it's

1527
01:47:05,120 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm old and that is and I

1528
01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:11,160
Speaker 1: am about to make some of you feel really old.

1529
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:15,400
Speaker 1: But I learned this watching the Ravens preseason game. I

1530
01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:19,920
Speaker 1: think it was Ravens Colts that the Ravens are I

1531
01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:22,280
Speaker 1: think a year or two away from have to have

1532
01:47:22,360 --> 01:47:25,680
Speaker 1: been in Baltimore longer than the Colts were in Baltimore.

1533
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:30,320
Speaker 1: More importantly, the Colts have already been in Indianapolis longer

1534
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:35,120
Speaker 1: forty one years. I think it is going back to

1535
01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:37,080
Speaker 1: it was an eighty two that they moved eighty three

1536
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:39,320
Speaker 1: something like that, right, it was eighty three, eighty four something.

1537
01:47:39,640 --> 01:47:42,439
Speaker 1: They've been forty one, forty two years. They've now been

1538
01:47:42,439 --> 01:47:46,680
Speaker 1: in Indianapolis longer than they were in Baltimore. So the

1539
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:50,200
Speaker 1: Indianapolis Colts are now older than the Baltimore Colts. Okay, see,

1540
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 1: I told you i'd make you feel old if you're

1541
01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:54,920
Speaker 1: someone of a certain age. And for those of you

1542
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:59,479
Speaker 1: that go, yeah, so what screw you? All right? Some

1543
01:47:59,520 --> 01:48:04,960
Speaker 1: of us want mark time. The other is Mario Rivera. Jesus,

1544
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 1: he lived my fear. I constantly I have stopped playing

1545
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 1: pick up basketball. I miss pick up basketball. I've been

1546
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:14,120
Speaker 1: trying to talk myself back into it. Now that I

1547
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:17,960
Speaker 1: see Mario Rivera torp ripped his achilles playing the old

1548
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:21,040
Speaker 1: timers game shag and fly balls. He I think he

1549
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:22,680
Speaker 1: and I are about the same age. He might be

1550
01:48:22,720 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 1: a year older or a year younger. Man, Mariano, you

1551
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:28,880
Speaker 1: just convinced me I'm out. I am just going to

1552
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:31,559
Speaker 1: stick to running. I am now going to do these

1553
01:48:31,720 --> 01:48:36,519
Speaker 1: extra I'm a doctor. I messed with my doctor gave

1554
01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 1: me some how to strengthen your calf, to try to

1555
01:48:39,439 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 1: strengthen to limit to the possibility that you that you

1556
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:49,080
Speaker 1: could tear your achilles. So let's just say that, Mario

1557
01:48:49,080 --> 01:48:52,759
Speaker 1: and Rivera, you've just motivated me better than any any

1558
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:57,320
Speaker 1: trainer could motivate me to do those exercises. For sure,

1559
01:48:58,080 --> 01:48:59,519
Speaker 1: I might as well give you a quick mats up.

1560
01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:01,840
Speaker 1: They took two of three from the Giants, so it can't.

1561
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 1: First of all, the Giants obviously not so good after

1562
01:49:07,400 --> 01:49:10,680
Speaker 1: after overperforming in the first half for a while. You know,

1563
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:13,080
Speaker 1: it never looked like a team that was going to

1564
01:49:13,120 --> 01:49:16,240
Speaker 1: be a real contender there. But I do imagine Buster Posey,

1565
01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:19,280
Speaker 1: we'll turn those things around. But look, the biggest news

1566
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:22,759
Speaker 1: for US Nats fans was that cade Cavally looked great.

1567
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:25,639
Speaker 1: All right, this was a guy that has had two

1568
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:30,479
Speaker 1: Tommy John's think about that. That's amazing that he's back pitching.

1569
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:35,120
Speaker 1: It was a terrific outing thirteen outs, but I'll take it.

1570
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:38,200
Speaker 1: It was pretty good. Mackenzie gored a great outing against

1571
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:43,840
Speaker 1: Justin Verlander. I know verlandery Verlander anymore, but uh, you know,

1572
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:48,559
Speaker 1: he's it's still that's still a pretty good, pretty good, uh,

1573
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 1: pretty good thing to say he did, which is to

1574
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:55,240
Speaker 1: get a win over Verlander, which Gore did. And it

1575
01:49:55,280 --> 01:49:57,080
Speaker 1: was nice to see James Wood in the leadoff spot.

1576
01:49:57,120 --> 01:50:00,000
Speaker 1: Let's see more of that, more of shaking that out.

1577
01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:03,280
Speaker 1: But I will tell you it's still frustrating. I'm glad

1578
01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:06,800
Speaker 1: to see Barry Zarugula took it, took it to the

1579
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:10,320
Speaker 1: Nats correctly. The Washington Post Sport section did a separate

1580
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:14,360
Speaker 1: piece about how Nats fans are frustrated with the ownership

1581
01:50:14,360 --> 01:50:18,720
Speaker 1: and with the front office. Finally, some public heat is

1582
01:50:18,760 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 1: being applied to the Learners, which needs to happen. They

1583
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:24,599
Speaker 1: are harassing me and other season ticket holders right now

1584
01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:27,639
Speaker 1: to hurry up and renew, and I basically I keep

1585
01:50:27,680 --> 01:50:31,639
Speaker 1: dodging the call right because I'm waiting for the Learners

1586
01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:35,519
Speaker 1: to speak, and they still haven't spoken. Will you please

1587
01:50:36,120 --> 01:50:39,320
Speaker 1: tell us the direction of this franchise. Are you trying

1588
01:50:39,320 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 1: to contend next year or not? Are you going to

1589
01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:45,679
Speaker 1: sell the team or not? Doing this? No man's land

1590
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:47,720
Speaker 1: is why you are getting people to say sell the

1591
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:50,360
Speaker 1: team now. I think the Learners have earned the right

1592
01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:53,599
Speaker 1: to change direction here because they did bring us one winner,

1593
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:59,479
Speaker 1: but saying nothing, please, we already have enough people not

1594
01:50:59,720 --> 01:51:05,559
Speaker 1: being leaders in Washington DC. Don't become just another another

1595
01:51:06,040 --> 01:51:10,800
Speaker 1: member of the Washington DC community who refuses to lead.

1596
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:15,000
Speaker 1: We expect more from you, mister Lerner. All right, so

1597
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 1: there's my little sports update, and with that, let's do

1598
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:20,679
Speaker 1: a few questions. Let's get the little ass Chuck in here.

1599
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:26,759
Speaker 1: Ask Chuck, all right, we got a little overseas questions

1600
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:28,840
Speaker 1: comes from the Netherlands. Heare, mister Todd. I'm a regular

1601
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 1: listener to the podcast, truly appreciate how you unpack complex

1602
01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:34,880
Speaker 1: political topics with such clarity. Thank you for saying that.

1603
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:37,240
Speaker 1: I've been wondering how did the US and EU, too

1604
01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:40,200
Speaker 1: long standing allies drift so far apart diplomatically and politically,

1605
01:51:40,439 --> 01:51:42,160
Speaker 1: and why does it feel like neither side knows how

1606
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:44,800
Speaker 1: to respond. Also, as a European who feels connected to

1607
01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 1: the US, I'm troubled by how much influence one individual,

1608
01:51:47,479 --> 01:51:50,120
Speaker 1: be it a president or billionaire, can have globally. Have

1609
01:51:50,200 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 1: we reached a point where democracy no longer feels like

1610
01:51:52,479 --> 01:51:55,480
Speaker 1: it's truly in the hands of everyday people or regards

1611
01:51:55,880 --> 01:52:01,559
Speaker 1: Randall Vanderval from Leyden, the Netherlands. Randall, I appreciate the

1612
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:05,960
Speaker 1: question on that. Well, Look, I think there's always been

1613
01:52:07,160 --> 01:52:11,040
Speaker 1: a little bit of a political divide about Europe right

1614
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:13,680
Speaker 1: where the right has always been a little more eurosceptic

1615
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:16,280
Speaker 1: than the left. Part of it has to do with

1616
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:22,800
Speaker 1: the governance of many Western European countries democratic socialism in

1617
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:28,439
Speaker 1: the Nordic states in particular, but there's been some disagreements

1618
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:33,479
Speaker 1: on sort of some of those governing styles, and then

1619
01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:36,120
Speaker 1: of course on some cultural things, and in some ways

1620
01:52:36,280 --> 01:52:40,520
Speaker 1: Europe's a bit culturally, you know, more liberal or culturally

1621
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:43,080
Speaker 1: more progressive than the United States is and so I

1622
01:52:43,080 --> 01:52:45,880
Speaker 1: think so, I think some of it is because we're,

1623
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:51,000
Speaker 1: you know, currently the the right is ascended on culture.

1624
01:52:51,439 --> 01:52:56,839
Speaker 1: That culture is is in some ways an anti discurrent

1625
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:00,000
Speaker 1: set of your European leaders. I say current set because

1626
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 1: there is also this connectivity between the American right and

1627
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:08,479
Speaker 1: the European right right the breaks of Tears Steve Bannon.

1628
01:53:09,040 --> 01:53:11,800
Speaker 1: You've got the a f D party in Germany getting

1629
01:53:11,800 --> 01:53:14,000
Speaker 1: a lot of love from like the seapack world. You've

1630
01:53:14,000 --> 01:53:16,400
Speaker 1: got hungry right, you know. So there is there's also

1631
01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:19,800
Speaker 1: been this sort of unity of the of the far

1632
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:23,280
Speaker 1: right parties both in the United States and Europe.

1633
01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:23,639
Speaker 2: There.

1634
01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:29,280
Speaker 1: But you know, it's interesting to me, as you're right,

1635
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:34,160
Speaker 1: I think in that we're you know, part of it

1636
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:36,719
Speaker 1: is that there's been some in the foreign policy community

1637
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:39,679
Speaker 1: who believe that Europe is a yesterday problem and Asia's

1638
01:53:39,880 --> 01:53:43,040
Speaker 1: today and tomorrow problem. So part of it is there's

1639
01:53:43,200 --> 01:53:47,680
Speaker 1: some in the national security form policy space that's not

1640
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:52,879
Speaker 1: hard left or hard right, that simply is less focused

1641
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:56,120
Speaker 1: on Europe and believes we should pivot to Asia, pivot

1642
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:59,720
Speaker 1: to the Pacific right. That was Obama's last half of

1643
01:53:59,720 --> 01:54:04,320
Speaker 1: his lifelast term was the pivot Asia because everything was

1644
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:06,640
Speaker 1: China right when everything was the Cold War, Europe was

1645
01:54:06,680 --> 01:54:09,320
Speaker 1: everything without the Cold War. Now you would think that

1646
01:54:09,400 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 1: Russia's aggression would have brought the EU in the United

1647
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:16,040
Speaker 1: States together, and in some ways it has, right, Right,

1648
01:54:16,120 --> 01:54:19,960
Speaker 1: NATO's never been better funded, NATO's never been more euro

1649
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:22,960
Speaker 1: you know. I mean the addition of Sweden and Finland

1650
01:54:22,960 --> 01:54:26,000
Speaker 1: have been huge, right. I mean, if if we ever

1651
01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:27,720
Speaker 1: have to go to war with Russia, we're going to

1652
01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:31,639
Speaker 1: crush them. It's not going to be that close. I mean,

1653
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:38,080
Speaker 1: we have the much more durable collective security than they do.

1654
01:54:38,880 --> 01:54:43,560
Speaker 1: So I think some of it is just simply attention

1655
01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:46,480
Speaker 1: to the Pacific. So that so there's a little bit

1656
01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:49,839
Speaker 1: of atrophy in the relationship. Some is what I described earlier,

1657
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:53,520
Speaker 1: sort of the right wing skepticism of the sort of

1658
01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:58,440
Speaker 1: democratic small d democratic socialism, that sort of you know, mindset,

1659
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:04,400
Speaker 1: you know. And and then of course I think Europe

1660
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:08,120
Speaker 1: in general is very anti trumpa, right, So then that

1661
01:55:08,200 --> 01:55:13,360
Speaker 1: makes Europe seeing anti Republican these days. So and it's

1662
01:55:13,360 --> 01:55:15,200
Speaker 1: the Republicans that are in charge. So you put all

1663
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:17,880
Speaker 1: those ingredients together in it, and that's what you have.

1664
01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:23,680
Speaker 1: So look in some ways this could be the best

1665
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:26,320
Speaker 1: thing to happen to the EU, that they have to

1666
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:30,120
Speaker 1: be prepared to be more independent, less reliant in the

1667
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:33,240
Speaker 1: United States. That doesn't mean the United States isn't the

1668
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:35,600
Speaker 1: single most important ally to the to the EU and

1669
01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:41,400
Speaker 1: EU nations, but that doesn't. But you've got to but

1670
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:43,280
Speaker 1: you've got to assume that there are going to be

1671
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:48,560
Speaker 1: times when there's a more hostile government. So so in

1672
01:55:48,600 --> 01:55:51,120
Speaker 1: that sense, look, I think and I think you're starting

1673
01:55:51,160 --> 01:55:56,840
Speaker 1: to see more European leaders, well they're not happy about it,

1674
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,680
Speaker 1: embracing the reality that that's what that's what has to happen.

1675
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 1: But let's just say the entire relationship between Europe and

1676
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:11,839
Speaker 1: the United States may transform again depending on whether Trump

1677
01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:14,440
Speaker 1: gives Pootin everything he wants at this summit later this week.

1678
01:56:14,560 --> 01:56:18,560
Speaker 1: So let's just say the relationship is still. The irony

1679
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:23,640
Speaker 1: is that both continents are dealing with a migrant crisis,

1680
01:56:24,880 --> 01:56:27,000
Speaker 1: and the migrant crisis is caused by the same issue,

1681
01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:30,840
Speaker 1: right displacement due to lack of opportunity, some of its

1682
01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:35,240
Speaker 1: climate change inspired. What's happening right in Central America, what's

1683
01:56:35,240 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 1: happening in North Africa. And I think that that migration

1684
01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:44,440
Speaker 1: is really stirred a lot of populist politics and a

1685
01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:49,480
Speaker 1: lot of nationalist politics, both in Europe and in the

1686
01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:51,080
Speaker 1: United States. So in that sense, we have a lot

1687
01:56:51,120 --> 01:56:55,680
Speaker 1: in common on that front. Not sure if I answered

1688
01:56:55,680 --> 01:56:59,120
Speaker 1: the question the way that as thoroughly you're asking, you know,

1689
01:56:59,160 --> 01:57:01,960
Speaker 1: why it's been so much you know, just sort of

1690
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:07,080
Speaker 1: the future of democracy. Look, I think, you know, sometimes

1691
01:57:07,080 --> 01:57:11,240
Speaker 1: I think we've had we had it so good and

1692
01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:14,600
Speaker 1: so easy for so long, we forget that sometimes citizenship

1693
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 1: demands work and keeping a democracy healthy, you got to

1694
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:19,880
Speaker 1: attend to the democracy garden a little bit, and we

1695
01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:22,720
Speaker 1: haven't tended to that garden. You've been hearing me come

1696
01:57:22,800 --> 01:57:26,320
Speaker 1: up with a lot of ideas about how to essentially

1697
01:57:26,360 --> 01:57:29,280
Speaker 1: reanimate the democracy here, and I think my guess is

1698
01:57:29,280 --> 01:57:32,440
Speaker 1: we're not alone. I think it needs to be reanimated

1699
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:35,720
Speaker 1: in a lot of Western societies. Next question comes from

1700
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 1: Judith w and she asks, I've just finished listening to

1701
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:41,440
Speaker 1: your introduction to the episode that dropped August six, and

1702
01:57:41,440 --> 01:57:43,520
Speaker 1: there are two things that I want to ask. One,

1703
01:57:43,840 --> 01:57:45,440
Speaker 1: how come it has taken the media so long to

1704
01:57:45,440 --> 01:57:48,600
Speaker 1: see Trump's mental decline? Too? It was evident long before

1705
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:51,160
Speaker 1: Biden left the race too. The people that are suggesting

1706
01:57:51,160 --> 01:57:53,480
Speaker 1: that blue states also redistrict would agree with you that

1707
01:57:53,520 --> 01:57:55,640
Speaker 1: redistricting to gain seats is not a good thing. But

1708
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:57,520
Speaker 1: what is it that you think the Democrats should do

1709
01:57:57,560 --> 01:58:00,480
Speaker 1: to counteract the redistrict in Texas and other Republicans states?

1710
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:03,160
Speaker 1: This seems like just one more issue than in the

1711
01:58:03,160 --> 01:58:05,760
Speaker 1: long run needs to be resolved updating the constitution. But

1712
01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:07,960
Speaker 1: in the short term Democrats don't appear to have much

1713
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:13,760
Speaker 1: of a choice. Thanks. Look, obviously I get your answer

1714
01:58:13,840 --> 01:58:16,320
Speaker 1: on the on the first part on the mental stuff,

1715
01:58:16,520 --> 01:58:18,720
Speaker 1: I think with Trump, Trump's always been a little weird,

1716
01:58:18,920 --> 01:58:22,840
Speaker 1: and so I think in fairness, you're not sure whether

1717
01:58:23,360 --> 01:58:26,600
Speaker 1: you know whether this is same old Trump or whether

1718
01:58:26,640 --> 01:58:28,600
Speaker 1: Trump is losing it a little bit now. I think

1719
01:58:28,640 --> 01:58:31,520
Speaker 1: you're starting to see some signs that he's sunsetting a

1720
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 1: bit in the evening, right, He doesn't look he's not

1721
01:58:35,000 --> 01:58:39,480
Speaker 1: traveled the country at all. He travels the country very rarely. Now,

1722
01:58:40,000 --> 01:58:41,600
Speaker 1: when was the last time he saw him do a rally,

1723
01:58:41,680 --> 01:58:44,920
Speaker 1: doesn't do them very often. Doesn't like leaving Washington, DC much,

1724
01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:49,000
Speaker 1: doesn't like leaving the New Marlago patio that he put

1725
01:58:49,040 --> 01:58:53,440
Speaker 1: into the Rose Garden, there, and so I think some

1726
01:58:53,560 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: of that is just, you know, like anybody, the older

1727
01:58:55,800 --> 01:58:59,360
Speaker 1: you get, the less you want to leave your own abode.

1728
01:58:59,720 --> 01:59:02,760
Speaker 1: And he's behaving that way, and he's certainly behaving put

1729
01:59:02,800 --> 01:59:04,560
Speaker 1: it this way, he is behaving like somebody like a

1730
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:06,640
Speaker 1: president of a second term who's burned out on traveling

1731
01:59:06,640 --> 01:59:08,600
Speaker 1: the country because he hasn't done it. And I think

1732
01:59:08,640 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 1: that's politically a huge problem for Republicans because he's not

1733
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:16,120
Speaker 1: selling his agenda at all. He's dictating his agenda, but

1734
01:59:16,160 --> 01:59:19,160
Speaker 1: he's not selling it. He's not traveling the country, he's

1735
01:59:19,200 --> 01:59:21,160
Speaker 1: not trying to sell it. And I think part of

1736
01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:25,600
Speaker 1: that is is that he's just getting too old to

1737
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:28,880
Speaker 1: do the job on We're starting to see certain signs

1738
01:59:28,880 --> 01:59:31,680
Speaker 1: in certain places that that's the case. He's certainly getting

1739
01:59:31,680 --> 01:59:33,879
Speaker 1: a lot more bad information than he ever has before.

1740
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:38,000
Speaker 1: Whether that is intentional that he's getting this bad information

1741
01:59:38,160 --> 01:59:42,000
Speaker 1: or he's just not as as as well read as

1742
01:59:42,000 --> 01:59:46,080
Speaker 1: he once was is unclear. Look, you ask, what should

1743
01:59:46,080 --> 01:59:48,320
Speaker 1: the Democrats do. Run a campaign in Texas, Go run

1744
01:59:48,360 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 1: a campaign in Florida, Go build a party, Go push

1745
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:53,480
Speaker 1: back on Greg Abbott, Go push back on Rondo Santis,

1746
01:59:53,480 --> 01:59:58,200
Speaker 1: Go push back. Look, I think what the Democrats are

1747
01:59:58,240 --> 01:59:59,800
Speaker 1: doing in the state of Texas, you do everything you

1748
01:59:59,800 --> 02:00:07,520
Speaker 1: can and you're elected officials. But I so but but

1749
02:00:07,600 --> 02:00:11,960
Speaker 1: I think sort of going and hoping. Here's my problem

1750
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:15,480
Speaker 1: with it, right, which is, if you think it's unfair

1751
02:00:15,520 --> 02:00:18,800
Speaker 1: what Texas is doing, then why I go to your

1752
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:24,200
Speaker 1: own home state and intentionally make it unfair to the

1753
02:00:24,200 --> 02:00:26,880
Speaker 1: minority community in your state, to the minority of voters

1754
02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:31,000
Speaker 1: in your state who don't who aren't blue. There's a

1755
02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:33,120
Speaker 1: reason for the expression too wrongs don't make a RNY

1756
02:00:34,280 --> 02:00:36,840
Speaker 1: And this is to me, I don't know. I mean,

1757
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:41,480
Speaker 1: this is the screams too wrongs don't make right. My

1758
02:00:41,600 --> 02:00:45,240
Speaker 1: frustration is they The hard thing to do is to

1759
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:48,200
Speaker 1: go figure out how to run a tougher campaign in

1760
02:00:48,240 --> 02:00:50,680
Speaker 1: Texas than in Florida and make them pay a price

1761
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:53,480
Speaker 1: at the ballot box. That's the hard thing to do.

1762
02:00:53,560 --> 02:00:55,480
Speaker 1: The easy thing to do is to change the rules

1763
02:00:55,800 --> 02:01:01,640
Speaker 1: somewhere where things are more supportive. Final question comes from

1764
02:01:01,680 --> 02:01:04,920
Speaker 1: Greg w. Hey check love the new show and format.

1765
02:01:05,000 --> 02:01:07,480
Speaker 1: The longer form has made you my walking podcast. I

1766
02:01:07,480 --> 02:01:12,280
Speaker 1: appreciate that one of my favorite ways that somebody was

1767
02:01:12,320 --> 02:01:17,520
Speaker 1: marketing at one of my favorite cannabis shops was marketing

1768
02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:20,240
Speaker 1: little pre roles as dog walkers now, which I thought

1769
02:01:20,280 --> 02:01:23,200
Speaker 1: was hilarious. I don't so, I don't care. I think

1770
02:01:23,200 --> 02:01:24,920
Speaker 1: a walking I don't want to be just a dog

1771
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:28,400
Speaker 1: walking podcast is shorter. I think a long walk podcast.

1772
02:01:28,440 --> 02:01:35,160
Speaker 1: I'll take that anyway. He asked. What amazes me is

1773
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:37,480
Speaker 1: when you bring on another political walk like yourself, and

1774
02:01:37,520 --> 02:01:39,720
Speaker 1: you can discuss an individual running into district only to

1775
02:01:39,800 --> 02:01:41,800
Speaker 1: end up talking about the history of that district in

1776
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:44,480
Speaker 1: terms of voting or events that change how the district votes,

1777
02:01:44,920 --> 02:01:47,120
Speaker 1: how are What do you use to find out that information?

1778
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:49,720
Speaker 1: I'm betting some of it is just living in that world.

1779
02:01:49,760 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 1: But for newcomers, what are some information sources we can

1780
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:54,880
Speaker 1: look at? Well, I'll tell you what I did when

1781
02:01:54,920 --> 02:01:57,200
Speaker 1: I was younger to learn. I mean, I was obsessed

1782
02:01:57,280 --> 02:02:01,560
Speaker 1: with understanding every congressional district. So the Almanac of American Politics.

1783
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:03,160
Speaker 1: And it's funny you're bringing this up. I'm going to

1784
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: be interviewing my friend Charlie Cook this week. He's written

1785
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:09,520
Speaker 1: the big introduction to them, The Almenic of American Politics,

1786
02:02:09,880 --> 02:02:12,360
Speaker 1: which is published by my old employer in the National Journal.

1787
02:02:12,640 --> 02:02:16,200
Speaker 1: It was founded by Michael Barone at Harvard in nineteen

1788
02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:22,360
Speaker 1: seventy two with a gentleman named Grant Ujifusa. And it

1789
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:25,879
Speaker 1: is it is. It is called the Almanac of American Politics.

1790
02:02:25,920 --> 02:02:28,520
Speaker 1: But what it really is is it's a profiles all

1791
02:02:28,520 --> 02:02:33,840
Speaker 1: foreign and thirty five districts, all fifty states, and then

1792
02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:37,600
Speaker 1: it has profiles of every governor and every US Senator.

1793
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:41,440
Speaker 1: So you have one hundred and fifty of those profiles,

1794
02:02:41,440 --> 02:02:44,480
Speaker 1: plus four and thirty five House members. It's five hundred

1795
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:48,200
Speaker 1: and eighty five profiles. And the profiles of the congressional

1796
02:02:48,240 --> 02:02:50,840
Speaker 1: districts are one half about the member and one half

1797
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:56,000
Speaker 1: about the district. Now, what did a dork like me do? Well,

1798
02:02:56,080 --> 02:02:59,240
Speaker 1: so I started. You know, my first almanac, working almanac

1799
02:02:59,400 --> 02:03:02,280
Speaker 1: was was for the ninety for the ninety two cycle,

1800
02:03:02,880 --> 02:03:05,680
Speaker 1: which so it was nineteen ninety two almanac is always

1801
02:03:06,320 --> 02:03:08,680
Speaker 1: up to date through the ninety elections. The ninety four

1802
02:03:08,720 --> 02:03:10,680
Speaker 1: almanac is up to date through the ninety two elections,

1803
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:15,120
Speaker 1: and so on and so on. Well, I had to

1804
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:18,080
Speaker 1: make sure I had every single cop every single edition,

1805
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:20,560
Speaker 1: so I have every edition going back to seventy two.

1806
02:03:21,560 --> 02:03:24,280
Speaker 1: By the way, our friends in Congressional Quarterly have have

1807
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:28,600
Speaker 1: their theirs. It's called politics in America. It's a little thicker. Frankly,

1808
02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:31,360
Speaker 1: I think a little drier some of the profiles that

1809
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:35,360
Speaker 1: think national journals. I think the Almanac is a little

1810
02:03:35,880 --> 02:03:39,240
Speaker 1: a little more readable all the informations there in politics

1811
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:42,040
Speaker 1: in America, don't get me wrong. And it's good info

1812
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:45,880
Speaker 1: in some ways, sometimes more thorough in some data there

1813
02:03:46,160 --> 02:03:50,400
Speaker 1: than than than the Almanac has. And I've that for

1814
02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:54,200
Speaker 1: previous and what I've done over the years, and what

1815
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:56,920
Speaker 1: I did early on is I read every you know,

1816
02:03:57,000 --> 02:04:00,720
Speaker 1: anytime I would focus on a congressional I would go

1817
02:04:00,760 --> 02:04:05,640
Speaker 1: back and read what the read the various Almanac bios

1818
02:04:06,400 --> 02:04:12,680
Speaker 1: from previous editions, and it's look, it was fun. I

1819
02:04:12,760 --> 02:04:15,600
Speaker 1: used to say, you could see Michael Barone's evolving politics, right.

1820
02:04:15,640 --> 02:04:18,280
Speaker 1: Michael Barone was a big liberal in seventy two, fairly

1821
02:04:18,320 --> 02:04:21,160
Speaker 1: conservative these days. And I used to say, if you

1822
02:04:21,400 --> 02:04:26,080
Speaker 1: just read the Henry Waxman profiles, the ones he wrote

1823
02:04:26,120 --> 02:04:31,120
Speaker 1: in the eighties were this liberal do gooder champion would

1824
02:04:31,160 --> 02:04:34,320
Speaker 1: take it to government every now and then, versus the

1825
02:04:34,400 --> 02:04:38,680
Speaker 1: one he'd write about in the nineties and the odds,

1826
02:04:38,960 --> 02:04:42,920
Speaker 1: who he thought was a limousine liberal, and that sort

1827
02:04:42,960 --> 02:04:45,800
Speaker 1: of mindset. But you could, you know. I used to

1828
02:04:45,880 --> 02:04:48,760
Speaker 1: say you could see you could read Michael Barone's evolution

1829
02:04:49,480 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 1: through that, but he you know, all kidding aside. It

1830
02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:55,280
Speaker 1: would be in the profiles of the individuals that you

1831
02:04:55,280 --> 02:04:57,920
Speaker 1: would sort of you could you could hear. I know

1832
02:04:58,000 --> 02:04:59,640
Speaker 1: Michael well enough that I could see some of his

1833
02:04:59,680 --> 02:05:04,360
Speaker 1: police evolutions, if you will. But it's the profiles of

1834
02:05:04,400 --> 02:05:09,000
Speaker 1: the district itself, finding about its history of voting and industry.

1835
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:14,640
Speaker 1: It's second enough, right. The model that Barone created is terrific.

1836
02:05:14,800 --> 02:05:18,120
Speaker 1: National Journal has kept that model and I don't think

1837
02:05:18,120 --> 02:05:21,480
Speaker 1: there's anything like it, and the new edition's coming out

1838
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:24,800
Speaker 1: it is. And I always say this, Almanacs are more

1839
02:05:24,880 --> 02:05:27,800
Speaker 1: useful the older they are, you know, because the most

1840
02:05:27,800 --> 02:05:30,960
Speaker 1: recent stuff is usually front of mine. Anyway, I have

1841
02:05:31,080 --> 02:05:33,360
Speaker 1: most of that, but as it gets older, you're really

1842
02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:37,600
Speaker 1: thankful to have it. So I don't work for them.

1843
02:05:37,640 --> 02:05:41,280
Speaker 1: I don't get any money from them anymore. There was

1844
02:05:41,320 --> 02:05:44,880
Speaker 1: a time I really wanted that my real ambition, before

1845
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:46,880
Speaker 1: there was ever a meet to press, I wanted to

1846
02:05:46,880 --> 02:05:51,360
Speaker 1: be co author the Almanac of American Politics. So that's

1847
02:05:51,360 --> 02:05:55,720
Speaker 1: how much I love the reference book. I think it's

1848
02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:59,720
Speaker 1: the single most important reference book in politics. So but

1849
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:01,840
Speaker 1: you need to get every single edition comes out every

1850
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:03,760
Speaker 1: two years, and it's been coming out every two years

1851
02:06:04,000 --> 02:06:06,560
Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy two. And I will tell you, just

1852
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:10,600
Speaker 1: like in card collecting, there's a short print the seventy

1853
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:15,280
Speaker 1: six edition, which is the Watergate elections through seventy four.

1854
02:06:15,880 --> 02:06:20,080
Speaker 1: It's the short print. For whatever reason, they didn't have

1855
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:24,080
Speaker 1: that many, they didn't print as many of that edition.

1856
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:27,080
Speaker 1: I think I spent five hundred dollars at a used

1857
02:06:27,080 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 1: bookstore to get my copy of my seventy six almanac,

1858
02:06:30,360 --> 02:06:33,080
Speaker 1: because by the way around around Washington, when I was

1859
02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:37,440
Speaker 1: first trying to make get every single edition, I had everything,

1860
02:06:37,520 --> 02:06:39,800
Speaker 1: you know, going back to eighty two because National Journal

1861
02:06:40,080 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 1: had older copies, but they didn't take over publishing until

1862
02:06:42,640 --> 02:06:46,240
Speaker 1: eighty two, so it was the previous those seventy two, four,

1863
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:48,760
Speaker 1: seventy six, seventy eight, and eighty I was trying to

1864
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:52,000
Speaker 1: get and the last one was seventy six. But I

1865
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:54,760
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times I'd go to a

1866
02:06:54,840 --> 02:06:56,760
Speaker 1: used bookstore they say, Okay, we'll put your name on

1867
02:06:56,760 --> 02:06:58,800
Speaker 1: a list, but you know you're below Charlie Cook. And

1868
02:06:58,840 --> 02:07:01,120
Speaker 1: I was like God damn it. Charlie Cook was also

1869
02:07:01,160 --> 02:07:02,760
Speaker 1: trying to do the same thing back in the day.

1870
02:07:03,720 --> 02:07:05,320
Speaker 1: But like I said, Charlie's gonna be on the show

1871
02:07:05,360 --> 02:07:07,200
Speaker 1: soon and we're going to be giving a lot more

1872
02:07:07,240 --> 02:07:10,920
Speaker 1: love to the Almanac after that. All right, So enough

1873
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:13,680
Speaker 1: of me promoting that. I do want to promote my

1874
02:07:13,680 --> 02:07:15,600
Speaker 1: news for you. Interview with doctor Francis Collins. You want

1875
02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:19,760
Speaker 1: to understand what mRNA vaccines are, why this technology is

1876
02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:25,840
Speaker 1: so important, and how incredibly just how it's a dereliction

1877
02:07:25,880 --> 02:07:29,600
Speaker 1: of duty for the future of healthcare, for what Kennedy did.

1878
02:07:30,120 --> 02:07:33,800
Speaker 1: You'd also got to check out my blues man, Francis Collins,

1879
02:07:33,840 --> 02:07:37,520
Speaker 1: because he's got the blues. He's got the blues, but

1880
02:07:37,600 --> 02:07:39,680
Speaker 1: he also has the blues and you could feel it

1881
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:42,280
Speaker 1: and hear it in his music. It's a little different.

1882
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:45,000
Speaker 1: But I think doctor Collins is just one of the

1883
02:07:45,040 --> 02:07:47,720
Speaker 1: great treasures of the United States, one of the great

1884
02:07:47,720 --> 02:07:52,920
Speaker 1: treasures of America, and I hope you take a look

1885
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:56,800
Speaker 1: and take a listen. So with that, I appreciate you listening.

1886
02:07:57,280 --> 02:08:01,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for keeping the faith with me. And until we

1887
02:08:01,600 --> 02:08:02,160
Speaker 1: upload again,