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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, I've got an idea for a new movie genre.

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Speaker 1: Who I'm excited and a little terrified. Well you should be, because,

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Speaker 1: first of all, you've got aliens in this movie. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm loving it so far. Okay. And now you add

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Speaker 1: a romance connection and you get an alien rom com,

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Speaker 1: you know you might have something there. Miscommunication is the

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Speaker 1: basis for basically every rom com. Yeah, and can you

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Speaker 1: imagine the meat cute giant spaceships first looks? Love it

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Speaker 1: first standing. It gives the phrase first contact a whole

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Speaker 1: new spin. That might be an approvate Daniel, It'll be

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Speaker 1: p G. I'm sure I am more handmade cartoonists and

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Speaker 1: the creator of PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a

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Speaker 1: particle physicist, and I want to have some relationship with aliens,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not that kind of relationship, just the intellectual kind, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want a platonic conversation with the aliens. You don't

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Speaker 1: want to be friends with them, you just want to

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Speaker 1: be like colleagues. No, I definitely want to physics zone them,

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Speaker 1: all right. I don't want to give them the wrong

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Speaker 1: impression and say, you know, I have other intentions, right,

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Speaker 1: But what if they're really cool, you want to hang

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Speaker 1: out with them? You know, I don't really know what

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Speaker 1: those social cues are. You know, how do you read

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Speaker 1: the signs? And alien is throwing you right? If you

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Speaker 1: put a tentacle in a certain you know shape, who knows,

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Speaker 1: how do one interpret that? Yeah? Exactly if you cross

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Speaker 1: off something in my equation, what does that mean? Usually

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Speaker 1: that you're the professor and the other person is the

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Speaker 1: crowd student. But welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: Explain the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio, in

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Speaker 1: which we think about all the crazy and hilarious stuff

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Speaker 1: that's going on in our universe, all the weird stuff

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Speaker 1: that's happening here on Earth, all the stuff that might

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Speaker 1: be happening on an alien planet somewhere where they are

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Speaker 1: also trying to figure out the universe. We squish it

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Speaker 1: all up and we try to stuff it into your

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Speaker 1: brain in just forty short minutes. That's right, because it's

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Speaker 1: a big universe, and who knows what's out there or

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Speaker 1: who is out there? And hopefully we are not alone

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Speaker 1: in trying to figure out the secrets of the universe.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully there's a whole community of physicists and mathematicians and

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Speaker 1: scientists out there trying to puzzle over the nature of

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Speaker 1: this beautiful and bonkers universe, and one day we could

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Speaker 1: all get together and share notes and maybe even meet

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Speaker 1: cute Do you think it'd be collegial, Daniel, like when

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Speaker 1: you feel competitive with the aliens, like when they put

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Speaker 1: you out of a job. If they come here with

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Speaker 1: all the answers to particle physics, I don't think I'd

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Speaker 1: feel more competitive with the aliens than I do with

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Speaker 1: my other physics colleagues already, That's what I mean. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know only one person can get the intergalactic Noble Price. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well I already have tenures, so I don't have to

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Speaker 1: worry about my job. He don't care like dealing comes,

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Speaker 1: Let them do my job for me, so I can

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Speaker 1: work less, even less. What if the aliens come and

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Speaker 1: then they take over all the good jobs? You're saying

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Speaker 1: so like human grad students can become professors anymore. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like they come with all the answers, so there's nothing

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Speaker 1: for you to do. There's always going to be something

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Speaker 1: to do. Even if they come with answers to our

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Speaker 1: current questions. There are always more questions. You know that

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Speaker 1: every answer just leads to more questions. Maybe they have

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Speaker 1: tenure two and they are slacking off too, that's one

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Speaker 1: thing to hope for. But anyway, there is a lot

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Speaker 1: of space out there in the universe, and it might

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Speaker 1: be filled with other species, and who knows what kinds

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Speaker 1: of wonders are out there, And so that's a big

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Speaker 1: part of physics to wonder about this and to think

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Speaker 1: about what could be out there and for us to

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Speaker 1: discover that's right. And also to do some thinking in

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Speaker 1: advance about how we might talk to those aliens if

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Speaker 1: they did come and visit. Could we communicate with them mathematically?

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Speaker 1: Would we be able to figure out their language? Would

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Speaker 1: there be some really awkward moments when we don't know

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Speaker 1: what to say or they say the wrong thing. It's

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Speaker 1: actually useful to think these things through because then the

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Speaker 1: day that aliens do arrive, we will have figured out

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Speaker 1: maybe a few strategies. Yeah, and so some advanced thinkers

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Speaker 1: in this area of science and research are science fiction authors.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely their job is to think of interesting possibilities for

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Speaker 1: what could happen or what could be out there, or

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Speaker 1: what what happened if we ever meet or discover these things.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Even though science fiction authors are not always

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Speaker 1: living in our actual, factual universe, they are on the

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Speaker 1: cutting edge of thought, because where are they living, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: If not in our universe? Are saying that authors are

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Speaker 1: aliens to interdimensional aliens. They're living in a fictional universe,

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Speaker 1: which amazingly is stored inside their brain, which is inside

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Speaker 1: our universe. So that's sort of cool, Like our universe

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Speaker 1: contains in it models of other universes inside people's brains.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like the next Christopher Nolan movie. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get a credit for that one. Christopher called

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Speaker 1: me up. But the cool thing is that that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what physicists do, right. I have in my mind several

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Speaker 1: possible universes that I'm wondering about. Is this one hour universe?

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Speaker 1: Isn't that one hour universe? So it's a pretty important

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Speaker 1: job to be creative and come up with other universes

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Speaker 1: that might actually relate to reality, that might give us

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Speaker 1: inside into how ours work. So we on the podcast

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Speaker 1: are always champions of science fiction authors on the cutting

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Speaker 1: edge of thought. Yeah, and so do they on the program.

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Speaker 1: We'll be tackling the science fiction universe of Lindsay Ellis.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Lindsay Ellis is the author of a really

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Speaker 1: fun book called axioms End, which explores a lot of

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Speaker 1: these topics in some pretty interesting ways. Yeah, and this

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Speaker 1: is part of our series of science fiction author interviews

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Speaker 1: and discussions about their work. We have a bunch of

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Speaker 1: them in the podcast archive, right, Daniel, that's right. We've

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Speaker 1: talked to a huge number of really fun and creative

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Speaker 1: authors who have been really generous and told us about

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Speaker 1: how they created the universe of their novel. This is

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Speaker 1: the literary podcast. We're digging into the physics of their universe.

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Speaker 1: Is it plausible, how does it work, how do they

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Speaker 1: put it together? And what can we learn about our

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Speaker 1: universe from their created fictional universe. Yeah. To Science Literary

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Speaker 1: Podcast on occasion. So if you're interested in discovering new

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Speaker 1: authors or hearing interviews with well known authors of science fic,

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Speaker 1: champ check out our archive. Do you think if you

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Speaker 1: wrote a science fiction novel you'd be up for being

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Speaker 1: interrogated about the physics of it by physicists. I get

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Speaker 1: interrogated by physicists every week, twice a week. Actually, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be it wouldn't be that hard, you'd be especially experienced. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have a special degree on that. Then you should

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Speaker 1: write a science fiction though that sounds like something to

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Speaker 1: add to your list. Write horror. It's more like horror

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Speaker 1: or you know, period drama. Your horror novel is called

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Speaker 1: being on a podcast with the Physicist Scream. That's right,

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Speaker 1: Misery Part two. But anyway, so we're talking to me

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Speaker 1: about Lindsay Ellis's work, and she's a pretty interesting author.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's pretty multifaceted, and she does a lot

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Speaker 1: of things online, right, Yeah, she has a pretty big

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Speaker 1: presence online. She has a YouTube channel, and she does

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Speaker 1: literary criticism, and so this is the beginning of her

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Speaker 1: career as an author. She's like cracking into the science

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Speaker 1: fiction community. It's pretty cool to see that the community

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Speaker 1: is open this way, that people can still come in

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Speaker 1: with a new idea and a debut novel and make

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Speaker 1: the best seller list. Yeah, it's a pretty big splash.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she made the New York Times best seller

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Speaker 1: listen her first trying. Yeah, exactly of her novels have

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Speaker 1: been best sellers. Yeah, that's a pretty good it's right there.

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Speaker 1: But congratulations to her and so they were going to

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Speaker 1: talk about her book Axioms and meaning like the end

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Speaker 1: of axioms or like the end of an axiom. It's

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Speaker 1: the end of an axiom. Yeah, And I don't want

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Speaker 1: to spoil exactly what the title means because you only

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Speaker 1: find out about two thirds of the way through the book.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of the book is about questioning your axioms,

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Speaker 1: is about questioning your thoughts about how the universe worked,

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Speaker 1: and also questioning your thoughts about how aliens operate and

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Speaker 1: how to communicate with them. It's sort of like a

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Speaker 1: paradigm shift. It's kind of what it's about. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: all right, Well, maybe step us through. What is the

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Speaker 1: basic premise of the book. Well, in the universe that

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Speaker 1: she created, it's like a slightly alternative history goes back

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Speaker 1: to two thousand and seven, all the way back to

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Speaker 1: two thousand seven, I know exactly. If you can cast

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Speaker 1: your mind back before your fuzzy memories of how the

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Speaker 1: world used to work, it does feel like a different world,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. Well, she literally has a different world. And

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Speaker 1: in her world, aliens have arrived on Earth, but they

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Speaker 1: arrived like decades ago, you know, in the sixties and

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Speaker 1: the government covered it up. So it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: the ros Will scenario where there aliens and Area fifty one,

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Speaker 1: but only the government knows about them. Wow. So in

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Speaker 1: the fifties they landed like in flying Saucers or so,

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Speaker 1: they landed decades ago and they sort of crash landed.

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Speaker 1: But then the governments are like swept it up and

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Speaker 1: kept it under wraps until more aliens arrive. So now

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Speaker 1: here we are in two thousand and seven, more aliens

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Speaker 1: are landing and the secret is getting out. They have

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Speaker 1: like a Julian Assange like character that's trying to blow

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Speaker 1: the whistle on the government and leak the fact that

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Speaker 1: the government has been keeping aliens a secret for decades

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Speaker 1: and then it's all blown up when more aliens arrive. Wow.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've always wondered why in all these science

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Speaker 1: fiction movies and shows they always to portray the government

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Speaker 1: is wanting to cover this up. Do you know where

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Speaker 1: that comes from? Like, what would be the rationale for

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Speaker 1: government to cover it up? I don't think there is

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Speaker 1: any rationale. I think it's a born of conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 1: Like it just doesn't make any sense, doesn't make any

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Speaker 1: sense from an individual point of view, like why would

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Speaker 1: an individual scientist or government worker not want to share

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Speaker 1: this information? And it doesn't make sense from the sort

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Speaker 1: of government policy point of view, like I never believe

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Speaker 1: the argument that, like people are gonna go crazy if

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Speaker 1: they find out, like you gotta deal with it. There's

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Speaker 1: plenty of bad news out there, you know, just let

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Speaker 1: us know and we'll figure out a policy. So I

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Speaker 1: never really made sense to me. I think it just

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Speaker 1: comes from people who think the government is lying to

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Speaker 1: us about everything because the government has lied to us

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Speaker 1: about stuff before. Just a general sort of suspicion of government. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And also, if you want to believe that aliens exist

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Speaker 1: and the government is not telling us that they do,

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Speaker 1: then the only way for you to believe that the

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Speaker 1: government has aliens is to assume that they're lying. Right. Well, So, anyways,

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Speaker 1: in the book, the aliens landed a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: and then they just started landing again. Now that she

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Speaker 1: explained why they came back, yeah, she does. The aliens

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Speaker 1: that have landed now are sort of coming after the

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Speaker 1: ones that landed forty years ago. But one of the

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Speaker 1: really fascinating things about the aliens that landed forty years ago.

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Speaker 1: Is that they didn't die. It's not like they crash

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Speaker 1: landed and we have corpses. The government has custody of

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Speaker 1: living aliens. But the fascinating thing is that those aliens

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Speaker 1: have been refusing to communicate, They like ignored every effort

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Speaker 1: to make contact or talk to them. Wow, because we

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Speaker 1: imprisoned them, or they're just being shy, or they're just

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Speaker 1: giving us a cultural Well, that's a great question, right,

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Speaker 1: and it goes to the heart of like why are

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Speaker 1: the aliens doing something? To answer that question, you have

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Speaker 1: to understand, like what do the aliens want? Why are

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Speaker 1: they here? What's important to them? And that's really the

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Speaker 1: heart of the book is trying to make sense of

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Speaker 1: could you ever understand what the aliens want and why

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Speaker 1: they do things? Can you even do basic communication with

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Speaker 1: the aliens? Could you develop a language to talk to them?

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Speaker 1: And even if you had that, could you ever really

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Speaker 1: understand them and empathize with them? Right? Right? Because who

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Speaker 1: knows they're what conditions they evolved, right, they could have

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Speaker 1: evolved on their totally different conditions, and so there are

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Speaker 1: a sort of way we see the world could be

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Speaker 1: totally different than the way they see the world. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it's very tempting to think about aliens and sort of

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Speaker 1: star tricky with They're like us, but just a tiny

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Speaker 1: little bit different. So talking to aliens is sort of

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Speaker 1: like talking to somebody from the other side of the

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Speaker 1: world that each stuff that feels weird to you, but

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Speaker 1: you're capable of sort of extending and extrapolating from your

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Speaker 1: experience to theirs. And do you hear It's like aliens

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Speaker 1: will be pretty alien, and so it might even be

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Speaker 1: that there's so puzzling that they just ignore you for

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Speaker 1: forty years for reasons of their own. I like that

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Speaker 1: element of it. There's a realistic sense of frustration and

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Speaker 1: difficulty in the same sense of like remember that movie Arrival,

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Speaker 1: aliens show up, it's just sort of like, what's your deal?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing here? It's hard to even know

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Speaker 1: how to begin communicating with them. They're so weird, right,

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Speaker 1: But I guess I have questions about the practicality of it,

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Speaker 1: like how do you keep aliens hitting somewhere? Do you

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Speaker 1: have to like put them in a cage habitat? And

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Speaker 1: how do you feed them? What do they eat and poop? Yeah? Right,

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Speaker 1: so these aliens, they keep them under wraps, and the

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Speaker 1: aliens are actually like self powered. So these aliens have

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Speaker 1: pretty cool biological technology. They're actually post biological. They're like

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Speaker 1: part nervous system, but the rest of them is sort

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Speaker 1: of like advanced cyboards. And they come with some internal

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Speaker 1: power source, so I guess they don't need to eat

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Speaker 1: for decades. You have some sort of magical like nuclear

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Speaker 1: something source inside of him, and then they're they're like

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Speaker 1: in a cage or dome or how did they how

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Speaker 1: are they kept? Yeah, so the government keeps them basically

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Speaker 1: in the equivalent of Area fifty one and has been

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Speaker 1: constantly trying to communicate with them, but they just sort

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Speaker 1: of sit there, ignoring the scientists until the new Aliens arrive,

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Speaker 1: and then everything changes. What happens when the new Aliens arrived.

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Speaker 1: So the new Aliens arrive and they meet the main character,

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Speaker 1: the protagonist, and then they try to rescue the original aliens.

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Speaker 1: They try to save the original aliens. So then the protagonists,

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Speaker 1: the person that we get to know best as the character,

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Speaker 1: actually ends up trying to serve as an interpreter between

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Speaker 1: this new alien and the rest of humanity. On this

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Speaker 1: new aliens mission to rescue the original aliens from a

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Speaker 1: third match of aliens that are coming to take them out. WHOA,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should have given a split elder. That sounds

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Speaker 1: like a big part of the plot, so that the

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Speaker 1: new aliens can communicate and do communicate with the main character.

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Speaker 1: They can and they have decided to. And so a

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Speaker 1: lot of the book is about learning, like what's that

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Speaker 1: like for the aliens? How to communicate with the aliens?

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Speaker 1: Why haven't the original ones communicated? And it's really fun

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Speaker 1: and fascinating And if you've read the book, I would

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Speaker 1: love to hang out and have coffee and talk to

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Speaker 1: you about it, but I don't want to give too

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Speaker 1: much away about the sort of intellectual ideas behind the book, right, right?

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Speaker 1: And so what do they look like? Are they humanoid?

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Speaker 1: Do they look like a cube? What do the what

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Speaker 1: do the alien bodies look like? They're sort of humanoid

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Speaker 1: in my mind's eye, they look a little bit like

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Speaker 1: the alien in the movie Alien that's like a big

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Speaker 1: long head and really really large eyes, but roughly humanoid.

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Speaker 1: But they're not like, you know, a big gaseous cloud

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Speaker 1: or like a gelatinous cube or anything too weird. So

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Speaker 1: is that part of the conspiracy that the movie alien

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Speaker 1: actually came from the real aliens. You just birth that

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theory right here today. Man, good job, all right,

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Speaker 1: but it spread disinformation. Done my duty for today. So

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Speaker 1: that the whole character arc and the arc of the

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Speaker 1: book is really about this character getting to know this

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Speaker 1: one alien that's coming to rescue the others and learning

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Speaker 1: also sort of the larger context of the galaxy. How

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Speaker 1: many species are out there, how many intelligent species there are,

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. So, you know, from the point

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Speaker 1: of view with somebody who's really curious about whether this

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Speaker 1: is true in reality, is fascinating for this character at

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Speaker 1: least to get some answers. Oh, I see that the

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Speaker 1: new aliens that come and talk to our main character

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Speaker 1: sort of give them the scoop on what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the galaxy. Yeah, a little bit, and sort of grudgingly,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean? Those aliens are not here to

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Speaker 1: educate us and share, you know, their intellectual wealth. They're

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Speaker 1: here to save their brothers and sisters. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: only when absolutely necessary do they give away a tidbit

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Speaker 1: of information that we are desperate to learn. Honestly, the

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Speaker 1: humans are like the annoying kid who keeps asking questions, yes,

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Speaker 1: exactly how many of you are there? And how do

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Speaker 1: you achieve fascinating like trottle that kind of thing exactly?

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Speaker 1: So does she paint a friendly universe out there or

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Speaker 1: does she paintless sort of like a warring kind of

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Speaker 1: hostile universe. It's a complicated question. The picture she paints

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Speaker 1: is that communication with aliens is complicated, is difficult, It

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Speaker 1: is maybe impossible and potentially dangerous because meeting these aliens

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Speaker 1: and talk to them could begin a conflict between humans

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Speaker 1: and those aliens. And so it's not necessarily seen as

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Speaker 1: like a good thing to establish communication with these aliens.

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Speaker 1: It's a tricky topic. I says, tricky because you might

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Speaker 1: say the wrong thing and the next thing you know,

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Speaker 1: you're in a star war. That's right, you say, hey,

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Speaker 1: didn't I see you guys in that movie? And then boom,

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Speaker 1: humanity is eradicated. The worst thing you can say to

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Speaker 1: an alien, aren't you? The ones based on that movie

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Speaker 1: Alien by Ridley Scott? How dare you? And that's why

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Speaker 1: we don't send cartoonists to be ambassadors or anything. Keeping

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Speaker 1: my home in a pencil and paper and that's it,

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Speaker 1: all right, Well, let's get into some of the signs

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Speaker 1: that she talks about in her novel Lncy Ellis is

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Speaker 1: Axioms End, and then let's get to your interview with her.

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Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. Alright. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about the science fiction universe of author Lindsay Ellis and

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Speaker 1: her book Axioms And, which is about aliens coming to

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Speaker 1: visit us and giving us a culturaler exactly. And it's

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Speaker 1: about how to develop communication with aliens, you know, how

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Speaker 1: you actually would get to talk to them and ask

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Speaker 1: them questions and use them as a way to learn

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Speaker 1: about the universe, and whether that's at all possible. M

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Speaker 1: all right, So maybe step us through. What are some

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Speaker 1: of the interesting science bits that she uses or imagines

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Speaker 1: or talks about in her book. So the main character

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Speaker 1: in the book is actually a linguist who went to

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Speaker 1: UC Irvine. No way, why did you get her degree? Totally? Yes? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: nice to see you see I like appear in culture somewhere.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy. Why it's I'm not I'm not saying anything

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Speaker 1: against your university, but it does seem like an unlikely

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Speaker 1: university to pick. Does she have roots in California or something?

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Speaker 1: How did how did she arrive at that, did you

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Speaker 1: ask her? Yeah, she lives in Long Beach, and so

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Speaker 1: I think she just wanted sort of like a nearby

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Speaker 1: university and the story takes place in l A. I

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Speaker 1: also suspect she didn't want it to be too glamorous.

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Speaker 1: And the character is actually the kind of student we

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Speaker 1: get at U see I, you know, first in her

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Speaker 1: family to go to college, not very wealthy, and so

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Speaker 1: I think it actually puts U. C. I in a

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Speaker 1: good light. You know, it offers an opportunity for lots

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Speaker 1: of folks to get an education. Nice. So I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe the main kind of science topic here is about

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Speaker 1: communication with alien and I guess she posits the question

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Speaker 1: of whether it's even possible to talk to an alien,

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Speaker 1: like maybe they're so alien we can't even have a

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Speaker 1: common basis on which to talk or communicate. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: she used this sort of linguistic knowledge of this main

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Speaker 1: character to talk about how human knowledge is put together

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Speaker 1: and trying to speculate about how an alien language might

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Speaker 1: work and how you might sort of build the basic

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Speaker 1: primitives you would need to learn to communicate with them.

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Speaker 1: And so I give her kudos for like thinking it through.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not just like you start pointing and

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Speaker 1: stuff and saying the words and then five minutes later

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Speaker 1: you're having a deep conversation about philosophy. She does take

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Speaker 1: us on that tour, and there's lots of you new

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Speaker 1: things that are misunderstood, and subtle cultural references that aren't

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Speaker 1: included in words. You know, there's there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: that good stuff. But also she assumes that these aliens,

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Speaker 1: the ones that arrived in her book, can have their

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Speaker 1: language sort of cracked by this sort of linguistic analysis,

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Speaker 1: that it's even possible to communicate with them, right, because

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Speaker 1: I guess you have to assume, since there are a

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Speaker 1: space faring civilization or species, that they do have communication

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Speaker 1: at least between them. There there must be some way,

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Speaker 1: assuming there are sort of separate you know, consciousness and

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Speaker 1: minds and and things like that. It's not a hive

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Speaker 1: mind or the borg, they must have some way to

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Speaker 1: communicate themselves. So, you know, there must be something there

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Speaker 1: that we can maybe the code or you know, figure out.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty good assumption that aliens will

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Speaker 1: communicate with each other, but whether we could decode it

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Speaker 1: and figure it out. I think that assumes a lot

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Speaker 1: about the way alien brains work and the way they think,

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Speaker 1: you know, the conditions under which they evolved. I think

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Speaker 1: we want to be real about it. I think it

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Speaker 1: would be really extraordinarily difficult. We'd be very, very lucky.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are still human languages that we have

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Speaker 1: not decoded. Remember how difficult it was to decode like

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Speaker 1: Egyptian hieroglyphics. If we didn't have the Rosetta stone, we

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Speaker 1: might not have ever figured it out. And so there's

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Speaker 1: lots of difficulties there. Just because you have a speaker

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Speaker 1: of that language doesn't mean you can decoded, right. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess there Rosettas done was hard because

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Speaker 1: we didn't have anyone who knew those languages to talk to.

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Speaker 1: But do you think maybe, you know, if somebody was alive,

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Speaker 1: that you could maybe have a conversation and start to

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Speaker 1: figure it out. I imagine, if there is life out

404
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Speaker 1: there in the universe, it must have some sort of

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Speaker 1: commonalities to our life, what it means to be alive

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Speaker 1: and not alive, and also physics and math and things

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Speaker 1: like that. Right, wouldn't that give us some common basis

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Speaker 1: to start with? Perhaps? But that's sort of the exciting

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Speaker 1: thing about this question. We're hoping if we do meet

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Speaker 1: alien life, it will surprise us that it will exist

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Speaker 1: in ways we hadn't imagined where possible, it will communicate

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Speaker 1: or think in ways that we never even thought of.

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Speaker 1: That's the purpose of exploration, right to go out and

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Speaker 1: be surprised by reality, to see you when it disagrees

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Speaker 1: with your preconcess options. And so it's sort of easy

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Speaker 1: to imagine, Yeah, life could be sort of similar to

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Speaker 1: us in these basic ways. We assume that these foundational

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Speaker 1: things have to exist. But I'm hoping to be surprised,

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Speaker 1: So I don't think it would make for a very

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Speaker 1: fun book, though, you know, if aliens showed up and

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Speaker 1: we just like couldn't talk to them for a hundred years,

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Speaker 1: like not in a great story, you know. So I

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Speaker 1: get as a as a sort of literary device, how

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Speaker 1: she had to sort of assume aliens were similar enough

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Speaker 1: for us to talk to them. But I think in

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Speaker 1: the broader sense of our actual universe, it's much more

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Speaker 1: likely to be much more difficult, if not impossible, right,

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Speaker 1: And I guess it doesn't help that they're giving you

429
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 1: the sign and treatment like they do it in her book. Yeah,

430
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: and it's much easier if aliens come here, which I

431
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: think is less likely, right because of the distances involved.

432
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 1: What if we get a message from aliens on another planet,

433
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 1: really really far away, and then our communication is like

434
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 1: takes twenty years to send a message. Imagine learning to

435
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: speak a language across that kind of distance and time

436
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: when you only get to like ask three questions and

437
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 1: get three answers and then you're it, and like, you know,

438
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: the next generation of scientists have to take it up. Yeah,

439
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: that would be pretty slow. All right, Well, let's talk

440
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: all bad some of the other science bits here. So

441
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: in her universe there are aliens all over the galaxy

442
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: and how do they get around? So in her universe,

443
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: she tried really hard to make realistics. She try to

444
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: stick to the physics of our universe. In her universe,

445
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 1: there's life all over the galaxy, but intelligent life is

446
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: very very rare. There's only a couple of species that

447
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: are intelligent to have the capability to even eventually develop

448
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: like spacefaring technology. And here I think she's trying to

449
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: make a comment on this question about you know, like

450
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: how common is life and how common is intelligent life.

451
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 1: But these aliens don't have life faster than light travel,

452
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 1: so they fly through the universe, you know, close to

453
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: the speed of light on their awesome ships. But they're

454
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: also limited in the same way we are by the

455
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 1: vast distances between stars. So how do these civilizations interact

456
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,959
Speaker 1: and stay cohesive? Yes, so these civilizations these aliens are

457
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 1: not actually very broad. It's like there's one alien planet

458
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: and there's another alien planet. And something that she talks

459
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: about in the book a lot which I thought was

460
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: really interesting, is the possibility of like interstellar war. You know,

461
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: would an alien species want to wipe out another one?

462
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: Like if they were aliens found on a star ten

463
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: light years from here, which is very very close cosmologically,

464
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: why would they ever want to kill us? Right? What

465
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: does Earth have that they need? There's plenty of like

466
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: platinum and iron and oxygen and water in Jupiter and

467
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: in Neptune. They wouldn't need to come to Earth to

468
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: kill us to take it unless they actually wanted us

469
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 1: as slaves. There's no reason in my mind they would

470
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: actually need to have a conflict with us. M does

471
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: does she cover that in her book? Like what's the

472
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: reason behind this war? Yeah? She does talk about that,

473
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: and she takes this sense essentially all species are born

474
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: in conflict. And it's very similar to another book we

475
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: talked about once, Maxim Barry's book Providence, about discovering an

476
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: alien species that's sort of weird and sort of feels

477
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: a need to fight the ideas that like, when you

478
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: grow up on a planet, they're limited resource and so

479
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: you sort of learn to see threats. If somebody is

480
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: so far from you that you don't see them as

481
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: you're in group, then they're in your out group and

482
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: that makes them a threat. So even if two communities too,

483
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 1: aliens and different star systems could actually live independently and

484
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: not bother each other, this sort of this natural tendency

485
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: to see each other as a threat and then start

486
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: pulling triggers. People are jerks. Basically, people are jerks, and

487
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: I hope aliens aren't jerks, you know, But in her novel,

488
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 1: they basically are all right. So the Alians are there,

489
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: they're at war, and they have cyborg bodies. They're sort

490
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: of like super advanced or they just kind of evolved

491
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 1: into this kind of cyborg mixed technology existence. No, they

492
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: are constructed, right, They build these bodies and they have

493
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: really awesome capabilities. And I don't want to get too

494
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: much into the detail because I don't want to spoil it.

495
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: But it's this sort of host biological system and because

496
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: of it, they can like live for hundreds of years

497
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: and they can repair themselves, so you can do all

498
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: sorts of cool engineering to these bodies that you could

499
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: imagine if you could like replace your arm or get

500
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: a new one or upgraded or all this kind of stuff.

501
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: All right, So it sounds like in general the books

502
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: stays pretty close to science and ideas about linguistics. It's

503
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: not like they're inventing a new kind of energy or

504
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: particle or misconsidering any sort of dark matter notions or

505
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: anything right now. There's no pim particle or anything crazy

506
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: like that. You know. The signs of the book is

507
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: pretty well done, and she's made some choices about how

508
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: aliens might be, which to my mind I think makes

509
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: them a little more human than they're likely to be.

510
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: But I also get why for a literary point of view,

511
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: she sort of needed to do that cool all right,

512
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: And then so you got to talk to her. I did.

513
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: She was really nice and spent like half an hour

514
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: talking to me about aliens and what they might be

515
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: like and what it's like to write a science fiction

516
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: book where one of the main characters is really truly

517
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: deeply alien. That we had a lot of fun, awesome.

518
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: All right, Well here is Daniel's interview with Lindsay Ellis,

519
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: author of the book Axioms, and all right, so I'm

520
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: very happy to welcome to our program Lindsay Ellis, author

521
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: of Axioms, And Lindsey, why don't you introduce yourself and

522
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. So I

523
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: I mostly for the last ten years or so have

524
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: been working in new media online video and to a

525
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: lesser degree, podcasting, And like the whole time I had

526
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: been secretly plotting to be a science fiction author, but

527
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: that only really came to fruition last year particular. Really

528
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: a long time. Getting published is really hard, especially in

529
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: this sort of like weird, nebulous world of commercial sci fi.

530
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, I after doing YouTube for about ten years

531
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: and I still do it, like it's still kind of

532
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: my main bread and butter. I published my first novel

533
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: last July, and the second one in the series comes

534
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: out in October, and then we'll just take it from there. Well, congratulations,

535
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm glad to see that science fiction is open to

536
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: newcomers and makes the rest of us aspiring science fiction

537
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: authors have a little bit of hope. Yeah, so difficult. Yeah,

538
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: I feel like I've noticed that a lot of like

539
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 1: sort of the prestige novels lately, not mine, but like

540
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: the last years, all the big winners of the awards

541
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: were all deeput novels. So yeah, it's it's it's pretty

542
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: opening to new blood I think that, you know, science

543
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: fiction lately has been a lot less reactionary than it

544
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: has been historically. Well that's great. So before we dig

545
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: into the details of your book, we have a few questions.

546
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: We ask every science fiction author to sort of orient

547
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: them in the space. So here's some questions about science

548
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: fiction in general. First question is sort of philosophical. Do

549
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: you think that star trek transporters kill you and then

550
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: clone you on the other side, or actually transport your

551
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: atoms to your destination they kill you? No hesitation on

552
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: that one, Huh, Yeah, I mean sorry, science it is

553
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: what it is. That's an easy one, guys. I bet

554
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it's like just don't

555
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: think about it. Okay, So given that, would you use

556
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: a teleporter? Would you use it to like get to

557
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: go to the service of Pluto or whatever? No, especially

558
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: since it only works short range anyway, It's like, come on, guys,

559
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: Like I, I I feel like I'd be like that

560
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: doctor in a second season of the Next Generation, the

561
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: replacement doctor who was like, no, I won't do the thing,

562
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: like yeah, it literally kills you, all right. Well, in

563
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: that case, what technology in science fiction would you most

564
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: like to see become reality? The one that cures like

565
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: cancer and just like Parkinson's. I would really invite to

566
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: not have Alzheimer's, you know, I think that's my biggie.

567
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: It's like, I think for us, I assume you're like

568
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: a millennial, is like, I think our generation is going

569
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 1: to be one of the last generations that like doesn't

570
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: really benefit from technology that can protect us from like

571
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's and dimension Parkinson's and stuff like that. So that

572
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: kind of sucks because I feel like, you know, assuming

573
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: civilization doesn't fall, which I you know, I'm not convinced

574
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: that it won't. I feel like in the future there

575
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: will be like really good preventative measures for certain diseases

576
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: that we are just really commonplace now, and it would

577
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: be nice to you know, be of your of sound

578
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: mind when you die. But like dementia runs really bad

579
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: in my family. So that's something I think about a lot.

580
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: It'd be nice to live in a time when people

581
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: look back and said, really that still happened to people,

582
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: that's crazy. Yeah. Last general question is what's your personal

583
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: answer to the Fermi paradox? Given the huge number of

584
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: planets out there that seemed to have earthlike conditions, why

585
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: isn't that we haven't seen aliens or been visited by

586
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: aliens or observed aliens on another planet yet? I guess honestly,

587
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: my answer is basically the answer that I gave in

588
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: the book, although the answer in the book comes with

589
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: a pretty huge aster risk that comes in the second book. Basically,

590
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: I think that intelligent life is the is the extreme rarity.

591
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: I think also people don't really take it to consideration

592
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: how young the universes, and you know, just the sheer

593
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: number of stars that had to like go through life

594
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: cycles in order to get to the complex elements that

595
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: comprise our solar system. Now, you know, like a lot

596
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: of stars had to go supernova for us to get

597
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: things like you know, platinum and you know, carbon, all

598
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: sorts of fun things. So I think it is very

599
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: likely considering that, you know, intelligent life only popped about

600
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: on Earth as a you know, result of a cavalcade

601
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: of mass extinctions and also kind of close to the

602
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: end of the Earth's life cycle. You know, we're about

603
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: eight of the way through, and what are the odds

604
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: that would happen over and over, especially in a fairly

605
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: young universe, you know, because I think we got like

606
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: a few trillion years before heat death starts in earnest.

607
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: So like, I think it's you know, I think it's

608
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: a combination of the universe is still pretty young, and

609
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: intelligent life is the filter. Like it's hard to it's

610
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: hard to cross that threshold. I don't like, I don't

611
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: I don't honestly buy the whole. Like, you know, we're

612
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: going to kill ourselves argument and that's what that's where

613
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: all the other aliens are because we have to work

614
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: pretty damn hard to wipe ourselves into extinction. Well, I'm

615
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: glad to hear you have faith in the survival of

616
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: the species. I mean, I don't have faith in the

617
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: survival civilization. I'm just saying, if we like we're like cockroaches,

618
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: it would be really hard to wipe this out altogether. Alright,

619
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: So that's a lot of fun, a lot more questions

620
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: for our author. But first let's take a quick break. Okay,

621
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: we're back and I'm talking to Lindsay Ellis, author of Axioms,

622
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: and let's talk about your book, which I really enjoy.

623
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: Congratulations on it than you. Your story really talks a

624
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: lot about sort of species conflict and difficulties and dangers

625
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: of communication and contact between different species. So tell me

626
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: what drew you to these themes. What made you decide

627
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: to make this the focus of your book. Well, I

628
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: think the thing about first contact fiction in general is

629
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: it always is about some form of other you know

630
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: capital Oh, basically, it's it's always kind of dealing with

631
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: a sort of anxiety slash curiosity about something that you yourself,

632
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: as a reader or as an author, or as a

633
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: culture might feel kind of is connected from. And that's why,

634
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: like invasion fiction is really common and you kind of

635
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: have like H. G. Wells, War of the World's is

636
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: a really good example of something that is both aware

637
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: of the destruction that his culture is reeking, but also

638
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: really anxious about the idea of being invaded. You know,

639
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: this coming on the heels of the franc Oppression War

640
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: and right for World War One. But I think, to me,

641
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: because some people kind of like the sort of military

642
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: science fiction thing where just like good versus evil, the

643
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 1: tension comes from how do we defeat the bad invading thing?

644
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: I just find narratives that are about trying to understand

645
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: something strange and foreign more interesting, Like, just as a reader,

646
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think those those kind of

647
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: narratives are more satisfying. I think, you know, that's why

648
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: people really liked to Rival, because like the entire book

649
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: is not just about figuring out their language, but it's

650
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: also figuring out what their deal is, you know, like

651
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: what do they want? And those kinds of narratives to me,

652
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: are just a lot more interesting than the you know,

653
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: invasion narratives. But I enjoy invasion narratives to Like. I

654
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: don't know if you follow me on Twitter or my

655
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,959
Speaker 1: YouTube channel, but like I tweet about Independence Day constantly

656
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: because an Independence Day is one of my favorite movies.

657
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like I I I love certain invasion narratives.

658
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: I just don't think i'd ever write one, or well,

659
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: at least not a conventional one. In the book. It

660
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: seems like you're a little bit ambivalent about whether communication

661
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: is something to aspire to, like we could understand these aliens,

662
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: or whether it just sort of brings on danger. And

663
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: so I wanted to ask you, in your universe, some

664
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: of the folks see aliens as threats, you know, sort

665
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: of despite the near infinite set of resources out there

666
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: in the universe. So do you think that we pose

667
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: like a threat to alien civilization or our aliens only

668
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: in danger if we see them as a threat, you know,

669
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: why can't we just all share the vast amounts of

670
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: platinum and water in the universe, you mean hypothetically or

671
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: in in the book, in reality, like in our universe. Well,

672
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: I think that really depends on like the situation, because

673
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: like I see people making like these really kind of

674
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,239
Speaker 1: wild speculation, like, well, have really aliens really showed up?

675
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: This is definitely what would happen, And it's like, you

676
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: don't know, you don't know, you don't know that. So

677
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: I think people kind of get in their heads a

678
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: little too much about what is logical whenever when when

679
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: the reality is like if aliens showed up, they're becoming

680
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: with their own set of reasons and politics and culture

681
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: and rationality, and we have no idea what that would be.

682
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: I think in general, the idea that aliens would come

683
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: for our resources is kind of silly unless that resource

684
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: is specific to life on Earth, because obviously, like elements

685
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: are you know, really common, like water is everywhere, you know,

686
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: things that are common on Earth are common everywhere. You know.

687
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: It's just like there are any number of reasons why

688
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: they could show up and possibly be hostile or possibly

689
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: you know, be not hostile. And I think that that's

690
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: sort of like why it's kind of hard to make

691
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: real speculation of like why can't we just get along?

692
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: Is like, but we don't know what their deal is.

693
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: We don't know what their politics are, and we don't

694
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: know what our politics would be when they showed up.

695
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: You know. I think it's interesting to say, like, well,

696
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: what would have happened if they showed up like in

697
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, like at the high, like the most dangerous

698
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: height of the Cold War, as opposed to like when

699
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: not a lot's going on, you know, and everyone's pretty chill,

700
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: and you know, there's not any you know, rise and

701
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: fascism yet that we would see in the two thousands.

702
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's just like it's it's a sort

703
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 1: of conflation of scenarios. But I think the main thing,

704
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: as far as human nature goes is we are very

705
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: fearful and we humans have a very deep rooted instinctive

706
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: in group out group mentality, and that I think would

707
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: be the hardest thing for us to overcome. So I

708
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: hear that you're saying that these aliens are essentially by

709
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: definition alien and maybe impossible to understand their motives and

710
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: to communicate with them in reality like in our universe

711
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: in the book, it feels to me like maybe you

712
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: wrote it sort of as a bridge. You're like, I'm

713
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: bringing aliens to them a little bit more understandable because

714
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: true alien is it sort of hard to relate to

715
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: that true? Was their a gap there between what you

716
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: think is actually happening in our universe and what you

717
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: wrote about in the book. Absolutely, yeah, because that's sort

718
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: of like a narrative function, like what does the story

719
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: you want to write? And I think the thing about

720
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: a rival is the aliens aren't really characters like they

721
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: don't really have personalities, and like I did want to

722
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: have aliens with personalities and like you know, motivations and

723
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: relationships and stuff like that. So it's like it had

724
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: to kind of figure out where the line was to

725
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: her is like, you know, looks alien and feels alien,

726
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: but is still understandable. And that's part of why the

727
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: actual work of decoding human language happens before the narrative

728
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: even starts, because like that just I didn't want to

729
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: tell the story of how we learned the language, Like

730
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: that just wasn't the book I wanted to write. So yeah,

731
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: I think that like the understandable nous of of the

732
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: aliens am persated particular, it was a narrative function, but

733
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: it was also just kind of like the story I

734
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: wanted to write. I wanted the narrative to be like

735
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: the center on the relationship between these two. Yeah, it's

736
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: not that exciting the story. If the aliens show up

737
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: and we just never figure out how to communicate with them,

738
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: it's just like a big shrug for a thousand years, right, Yeah.

739
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: Or or it'll be like an Endor's game scenario where

740
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: it's like we fight and then they just kind of

741
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: stop one day and everyone's like, well, they'll be back,

742
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, and not actually know why they stopped fighting.

743
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: So in your book there's a lot of linguistic theory

744
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: and discussion of the structure of the alien language. Do

745
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 1: you think that in reality linguists would be like on

746
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: the front lines of real life alien contact. No, No,

747
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I think the thing people tend to forget

748
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 1: about linguistics is it is a very tune to not

749
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: just human syntax, but also the human mouth and sounds

750
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: that we make, and like the full half of linguistics

751
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: is just about the sounds, the phonemes, but also at

752
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: the same time, there's just so much about like language

753
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: acquisition and that we haven't figured out yet. And the

754
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: thing is, like, I think the easiest way, like there's

755
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: a Chomskyan way to understand language acquisition, which was the

756
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: one I ascribed to or at least in the in

757
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: the in the context of the book, which is why

758
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: in the book, human language is almost kind of described

759
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: as algorithmic and basically, if you kind of figure out

760
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: the algorithm, you can decode any human language with enough context.

761
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: I wish I had that algorithm. Basically, the idea of

762
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: being if the human brain is the hardware, language is

763
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: the software. So if you don't have that hardware, then

764
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: the software is completely meaningless. And this I think would

765
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: work in reverse too. I think, you know, I'm not

766
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: saying linguist would be completely useless, but I think like

767
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: the study of human linguistics probably is not going to

768
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: apply to a hypothetical alien language. I think that the

769
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: most useful thing in that context would probably be like,

770
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: you know, pattern recognition software, that sort of thing, because

771
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: you know, it's like if you look at people trying

772
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: to figure a dolphin language, they're not human linguists, you know,

773
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: So that that that is why I think linguists wouldn't

774
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: be terribly useful in this scenario. Isn't any human attempt

775
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: to understand the alien language going to be constrained in

776
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: the same way like we could argue that mathematics is universal,

777
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: but we don't actually know that. It could just be

778
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: like a product of the way that our hardware work

779
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: and really no sense to alien mathematicians. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

780
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: It's hard to say because it's just like you're you're

781
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: dealing with like incredible speculatives with also fundamentally like a

782
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: line of thinking that you yourself are not capable of,

783
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: which was kind of a weird thing with me, because

784
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: it's one thing like where it's a book and you

785
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: have to describe the sounds being made. You don't have

786
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: like the fun luxury of like you know, a sound

787
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: department making up sounds. But also like the you know,

788
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: the alien language and how it operates as opposed to

789
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: human language, like there would be overlaps, like it's a

790
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: spoken language, like so it's not like through colors or

791
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: smells or whatever. So it's like an oral spoken language,

792
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, and so therefore it uses phone names, it

793
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: uses sounds, but like the similarities kind of in there,

794
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: like they don't really have words, they don't. It's it's

795
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: more like a sort of cluster of phonemes that create

796
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: a lump of meaning and you know, describing that in

797
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: a way that you understand what it is. But at

798
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: the same time you can't speak it and you can't

799
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: think it because you don't, you know, you're a human

800
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: brain that understands human language. So then thinking about the

801
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: bodies of the aliens, I thought there were a lot

802
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: of really cool ideas in your story about how a

803
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: species might like move beyond their biological origins. Do you

804
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: think that's the future of humanity? Do you do you

805
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: want to have a artificial body in the future? Oh? Man,

806
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: that that's what I don't like to think about, because

807
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: it's going to be class based. You know, it's gonna

808
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: be you know, speaking of H. G. Wells, you know

809
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,959
Speaker 1: in the Time Machine, when the time traveler goes into

810
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: the future, he's like, oh, weird, two different species and

811
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: it turns out like one of them is the rich

812
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: people and wrote them or the under class. So I

813
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: think that's sort of the thing that scares me a

814
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: little bit about, like genetic engineering and trans humanism is like,

815
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: oh good, another way we can really put into sharp

816
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: relief the class divide. So it's sort of one of

817
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: those things that I do kind of think. I think

818
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: it's inevitable, but I don't think it's inevitable in a

819
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: good way. Right. Yeah, Well, down here in Orange County,

820
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: I see a lot of folks with botox spaces, and

821
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: I wonder if I really am the same species as

822
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: some of the people around here. Anyway, next question I

823
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: want to ask you is about the political question that

824
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: you raised earlier about how we would respond. In your book,

825
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of information about the aliens that's kept

826
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: secret by the government. Is a key plot device you use.

827
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: Do you think that's happening now that the government has

828
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: secret information about aliens? Or do you think it would

829
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: happen if aliens did visit? Uh? No, no, and no.

830
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: I think because I kind of put like why I

831
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: think they couldn't keep this a secret in the book,

832
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: like like Nils, who's one of the like sort of

833
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: this Chilian Assange character as a little polemic somewhere like

834
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: halfway through the book where he talks about information sharing

835
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: between agency is after nine eleven, made keeping a secret

836
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: of this magnitude that involved this many people of like

837
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: essentially impossible. But I think like whenever you see like

838
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 1: the stuff that like the Pentagon released lately, people are like, oh,

839
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: they proved its aliens, and it's like, no, you do

840
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: understand that an unidentified flying object just means it's a

841
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: flying object that that's unidentified, like they don't know what

842
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: it is. So I I very leeriate that conspiratorial thinking

843
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: where it's like you don't use evidence to come to

844
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: a conclusion. You have a conclusion, and then use the

845
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: thing as evidence and ignore anything else to the contrary.

846
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,919
Speaker 1: So I think it's it depends. I think, like in

847
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: this case, they genuinely don't know what it is, so

848
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: of course they kept a secret, and I think historically

849
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: that would have been the case. But I think if

850
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: they knew something definite, like, no, you can't keep that

851
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: a secret. That's way too big and it would cause

852
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: a scandal like that, because that's what happens in the book,

853
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: is like, if they like were deliberately keeping this thing

854
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: a secret for such a long time, it would just

855
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: cause such a massive scandal when it inevitably gets out.

856
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: So that that's my take on the whole government conspiracy thing. Well,

857
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: I hope that's true. So the last question I have

858
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: for you is about sort of constructing your universe. When

859
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: you went out to write this novel. How important was

860
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: it for you that the science of your universe be

861
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: sort of the same as the science of our universe,

862
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: That everything that happens there, you know, limitations on fast

863
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: and light travel to be the same as the ones

864
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: in our universe. Well, I guess the funny thing is,

865
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: like I wanted to write something that wasn't technically in

866
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: contradiction to certain theories. I guess is the thing because

867
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: as I'm sure you know, you know, we haven't figured

868
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: out the theory of everything yet, and there's just like

869
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: a lot we don't know about, like the physics of

870
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: the universe, And so I guess my thing was I

871
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: actually I had a nuclear physicist is a German guy

872
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: named Wolfgang, and he lives in Frankfort, or he did.

873
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: Whenever I talked to him about this, I was thinking, like,

874
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, whenever I figured out, like, well, what are

875
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: the laws of physics of this universe? Do I pick

876
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: one of the any potential theory of everything theories? Or

877
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: do I just make one up? And uh? I asked him.

878
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: I was like, what do you think is the right one?

879
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: And he's like, I like quantum loop gravity, Okay, well

880
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: when do you think ballpark? When do you think we're

881
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: gonna nail it down? And he's like, I don't know

882
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: two hundred three hundred years and like cool, So it

883
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. So basically I I did. I went with

884
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: a version of string theory, and so I try to

885
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: keep everything under the umbrella of things that would be

886
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: theoretically possible. Let me put it that way. If this

887
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: version of stringth theory is true, which we're probably not

888
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: going to figure out in our lifetimes anyway. Unfortunately, there

889
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: are ten to the five string theories which could be true. Yeah,

890
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: and then the funny thing is like, since it's aliens,

891
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: I don't need to say which one because they have

892
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: a different name for it, see, and we don't know.

893
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: So Yeah, it was something that I thought a lot about,

894
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: but also like I kept intentionally vague because you know,

895
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: it's like they wouldn't have the same terms for things

896
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: that we do, so like some things would line up,

897
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: like you know, I don't know gravity or light speed

898
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: or stuff like that, but then other things, you know,

899
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: they would have different terminology for it, like you know,

900
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: dimensions or strings or stuff like that. Yeah, I guess

901
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: it was just like I wanted to keep it vague,

902
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: but also like technically theoretically possible, you know, like with

903
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: the idea of like telekinesis and stuff like that, and

904
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: you know this basically just being a sophisticated form of

905
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: manipulating electromagnetic fields and you know, condensing electrons and stuff

906
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: like that, They're like, well, Okay, sure, you know that

907
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: would take a lot of energy, so they just have

908
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: a lot of energy. Boom done. Like so yeah, awesome.

909
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: Well I thought that was really fun and I was

910
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: really appreciated that you sort of picked this out of

911
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 1: rules and stuck to them. To me, that's a critical

912
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: element of science fiction. Thank you thinking about it for

913
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: a long time. I appreciate it. Thanks very much for

914
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: coming on and telling us all about your book. Why

915
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: don't you tell our listeners about upcoming projects or things

916
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: you have coming out soon? Right? Well, Sequel to X

917
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: Seems comes out in October. It is done, so it's

918
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: in production as they call it at the publisher, And

919
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: that one I think will probably be more relevant to

920
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: the discussion of this podcast because it deals a lot

921
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: more into like the science of the universe and uh

922
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: like actually addresses the Fermi paradox and the origin of

923
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: life and stuff like that. Again, like just it's a

924
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: fictitious universe, but it's like, you know, it's fun to

925
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: play with hypotheticals based on like, well, here is what

926
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: we know, so how could it play out in other scenarios?

927
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: And so that comes out in October. And other than that,

928
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: I'm still doing long form stuff on YouTube that just

929
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: comes out once every couple of months or so because

930
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: videos are really really long. Got one coming out in

931
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. J K rolling again. So yeah, great,

932
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: Well looking forward to this equel to your book. I'll

933
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: definitely pick it up. And thanks again for joining us

934
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: and talking to us about all these crazy ideas. Thanks

935
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: a lot for having me, and I hope you guys

936
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: have a good rest of your plague. All Right, that

937
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: was a pretty cool chat. I love her thoughts about

938
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 1: alienness and how she had to make the aliens alien,

939
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: but you also kind of want to make them relatable

940
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: so that you, as a reader can identify with them. Yeah,

941
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: it's a tricky line to balance. I totally respect that,

942
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: and I like that she separated sort of the idea

943
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: she put into her novel, which is, you know, important

944
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: for telling a fun story, with her ideas about like

945
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: how the universe actually works. So that's pretty cool. It

946
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: sounds like she was a little conflicted, maybe like she

947
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: thinks the universe might work this way, but for the

948
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: writing of the novel she had to portray a certain way. Yeah,

949
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: this is not like a scientific paper, right, this is

950
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: not like her idea for how she thinks the universe

951
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: actually is this is like, Hey, here'd be a cool

952
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: universe in which I could tell a fun story that

953
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: would be enjoyable to read, you know, which is not

954
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: the kind of constraint I usually have in my science papers.

955
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: You know, but do you do write science fiction? Daniel?

956
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: Did this? Brey to write any science fiction stories or

957
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: feature any more professors from UC Irvine. I'd love to

958
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: see more of U. C. I appearing in culture somewhere.

959
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: And I think it's inspirational that somebody had a cool

960
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: idea and tried writing and then was successful and was

961
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: able to break into the industry. I always think it's

962
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: a healthy community when a novice can break in and

963
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: do a good enough job that they could actually be successful.

964
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: So that's awesome to hear. And I think that everybody

965
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 1: out there who's aspiring to write a science fiction novel

966
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: is encouraged by it. Cool. Well, if you are interested,

967
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: please check out Lindsay Elisi's book Axioms and you can

968
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure to find it everywhere. I was a New

969
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller, and get to see her thoughts and

970
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: her ideas and her stories about aliens coming to visit

971
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: us and ignoring us. It was a lot of fun,

972
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: and she has a sequel coming out later this year,

973
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: which I'm confident will also be fun. All Right, well,

974
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: please check out her work and we hope you enjoyed that.

975
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, see you next time. Thanks for listening,

976
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained. The Universe is

977
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: a pre duction of I Heart Radio. For more podcast.

978
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 1: For my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

979
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,