WEBVTT - The Honorable Ruth Bader Ginsburg: How to Fight for Equality 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.879 On September eight, the world lost an extraordinary person with 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.800 a brilliant mind and a caring heart, a trailblazer who 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.320 will be remembered as one of the most influential advocates 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.200 for equality in the history of our country. I'm talking, 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.840 of course, about Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.319 dedicated her life to widening the circle of opportunity and 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.559 opening doors for countless others who came after her, and 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.360 who became a pop culture sensation, the notorious RBG in 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.680 the process. I've often said that nominating Justice Ginsburg to 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.600 the Supreme Court was perhaps the best decision I've made 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.680 as president. I'll never forget the first time we met, 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.239 when I invited her to the White House for an 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.160 interview as I weighed my decision about the Supreme Court nomination. 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.360 Just about ten minutes into our talk, it was already 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.720 clear to me that she had the best combinations of 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.520 skills and instincts of any of those I was considering. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.880 I wanted to appoint someone who was open minded, passionately 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.920 committed to equality, and determined to work with the other 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.240 judges to try to forge consensus when it was possible, 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.760 and also willing to stand up for them when it wasn't. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.080 For more than twenty seven years on the Supreme Court, 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:31.800 she went above and beyond even my highest expectations. So 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.560 why am I telling you this? Because as we celebrate 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.480 Women's History Month, Ruth Bader against Bird's remarkable story is 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.319 an important reminder of the barriers she faced in her 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:48.920 life and career, systemic obstacles that her male counterparts were 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.520 not subject to and often didn't even consider. She didn't 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.000 just overcome those barriers, she tore many of them down, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.160 and use your own experiences to in former decades of 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:06.600 work on behalf of others whose voices weren't being heard today. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.359 I want to share a part of that story is 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:14.600 told by Justice Ginsburg herself. In Justice Ginsburg joined NPR 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.800 Legal Affairs correspondent Needa Totenberg for a special conversation hosted 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.959 by the Clinton Presidential Center as part of the computer's 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:28.120 Distinguished Lecture series. I often wonder if, as a young lawyer, 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.480 she could have even imagined that the eighties, six year 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.280 old Supreme Court justice version of herself wouldn't be filling 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:40.600 arenas normally reserved for concerts and sports events and acting 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.440 as a role model for girls and boys who dreamed 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.400 of living in a country dedicated to genuine fairness and equality. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.679 As you listen to this episode, I asked that you 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.200 do so not just with a heavy heart that Justice 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.400 Ginsburg is no longer with us, but with a sense 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.240 of gratitude for the many years of wisdom, guidance, and 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:06.520 inspiration she gave us. Her work made America stronger, fairer, 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:11.240 more just, and we're all better because of her service. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.280 That is a gentleman, just a Skinsbourg. The need to 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:36.040 talking bird. Thank you, thank you. Need everyone need be ceded, 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:50.000 need be ceded, Thank you, thank you, thank you, um, 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.440 thank you all for coming. I think Justice Skinsburg and 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:59.520 I have never ever appeared before an audience this large 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:13.000 before war, and uh, I understand that normally this is 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:20.120 I guess recently the worldwide wrestling entertainment. We are not 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.120 going to wrestle each other. We're going to try to 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:30.560 entertain you a bit and inform you. UM you've heard 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:37.000 President Clinton describing his why he picked Justice Ginsburg. But 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:41.080 I think I should start this interview asking you about 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:47.080 that interview. UM, So let me set the stage. The 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:54.680 year is the new President is flirting with all manner 0:04:54.880 --> 0:05:01.039 of potential Supreme Court nominations, and uh, the names keep 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:07.640 getting leaked to the likes of me Um and behind 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:13.120 the scenes, the inimitable Martin Ginsburg is doing everything in 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:21.000 his power to promote his tiny but auspicious wife. Uh. 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.880 And finally you get a call from burning us Baum 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:31.599 the White House Council, and it's a call that you 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:36.280 had long hoped for. But you are in something of 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:41.600 a fashion dilemma. So tell us about how you got 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.680 the call that day calling you to the White House 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:50.880 and what your fashion dilemma was. I was called on 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:56.760 a Saturday in Vermont, where I was to attend a wedding, 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:03.479 and Bernie Nus said, the President wants to meet you. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:10.680 Please come back to d C. And I said, well, 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.360 I've told all this way to attend the wedding. Can 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:22.359 I come tomorrow morning? And he said fine, We'll go 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.120 right from the airport to the White House. And I said, 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.799 but I'll be wearing my traveling clothes. Oh that's okay, 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:35.000 because the President would be just coming off the golf course. 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:42.400 So I arrived in by playing clothes and incomes a 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.640 very handsome president wearing his Sunday best because he just 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:55.760 comes from church. So what was the conversation with the President? 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:00.120 Like what kinds of things did he ask? And did 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.720 you have a good time or were you in interview agony? 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.279 Though it was very easy to talk to the President. 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.120 We talked about constitutional law, after all, he was a 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:19.640 constitutional law professor. We talked about family, have we talked 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:26.200 about many things. And I've had the experience with some 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:31.240 men that they have a certain discomfort talking to a woman. 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:44.160 That was not that way with President Clinton. So I 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.040 was told after that interview by a number of White 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.600 House aides, but he just felt for you, hook line 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.239 and sinker. And this afternoon when we were talking, he said, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.320 in five minutes, I had just fallen for her hook 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:02.320 line and sinker. Um, but when did you get the word? 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.040 Do I recall that you got a call from burning 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.360 us down when you were in the bathtop or something 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:15.760 like that. That night it was rather late on Sunday night, 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:23.640 and it was one of the happiest moments of my life. 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:30.040 I was absolutely on cloud nine. And then the President said, 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.280 and tomorrow morning, we will have a little ceremony in 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.040 the Rose Garden, and we'd like you to make a 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.720 few remarks. I had to come down from the cloud 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:49.600 sit at my writing table. I liked the remarks. It 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:54.400 was the only time in that entire episode when there 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.520 was no time from White House handless to go over 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:03.240 what I was going to say, my own words, unedited. 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.680 You know, you then went into a confirmation process. I 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.040 think in the end you got I'm not sure about this. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:27.480 I think there were only three Thank you. Republicans today 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.960 all often cite the Ginsburg rule, And when I go 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.960 back and I read the transcript, I read about what 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:41.280 your rule was. But it strikes me that in light 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:48.360 of modern confirmation hearings, more modern confirmation hearings, UH nominees 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:53.600 are considerably less responsive of all political strikes, not just 0:09:54.120 --> 0:10:00.400 Republican nominees. You actually answered questions about abortion and the 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.880 death penalty and all kinds of things. The Ginsburg rule 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:11.320 was that you please do not ask a question that 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:15.920 may come before the court, because then I would have 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.280 to disqualify myself if I gave an answer, because the 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:26.360 judge is not supposed to react just off the top 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.480 of her head when a question is presented to us. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.720 We read first of all the decisions that were written 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:39.480 by the courts below, the trial court, Court of Appeals, 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.280 and then we read the briefs that are anything but 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:49.120 brief filed by the lawyers, and we read the relevant President. 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.960 So to give an answer to a question without the 0:10:55.040 --> 0:11:00.680 benefit of all that reading and briefing is not what 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.040 a judge to do. Still, there was a lot out 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.320 there that I could be asked about. Because I was 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.679 seventeen years of a law teacher, thirteen years a judge 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.400 on a Court of Appeals. I had written hundreds of opinions, 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:21.440 many articles, and anything that I had already written was 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.640 fair game. So you arrived at the court. You're the 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.320 second woman, and Justice O'Connor had been there for twelve 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.840 long years without you. Right, what advice did she give you? 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:41.320 She told me just enough to enable me to navigate 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:47.760 those early weeks. She didn't douse me with a bucket 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:53.960 full of information, just enough to get by. She was, 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.000 I think, very pleased at a change the court made 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:03.400 when I was appointed. Justice O'Connor was a lone woman 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:08.400 on the court for twelve years. In our robing room, 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:13.200 there is a bathroom and it says men for Justice O'Connor, 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.400 when the need a rose she had to go all 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.760 the way back to her chambers. When I came on board, 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:26.439 they rushed a renovation. They created a women's bathroom equal 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:40.240 in size to the men's. Your first opinion assigned to you, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.800 it was not quite what you expected, and you went 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:52.559 to her. Yes. The legend is that the new justice, 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:59.120 the junior justice, will get a single issue case in 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:05.040 which the court is unanimous. Her Chief Justice Frienklis gave 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:11.439 me as my first assignment a Miserable Orissa case. Arissa 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:18.080 is the Employee Retirement Security Act. It is one of 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:23.480 the most complex statutes Congress ever wrote. The quote was 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:28.960 not unanimous, divided six to three, and Justice O'Connor was 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.079 on the other side. She was one of the three. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.560 So I came to her and I said, Sandra, he 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:41.959 was not supposed to do that to me. Her response, 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.600 and this is typical of Justice O'Connor. She said, Ruth, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:51.640 you just do it. Just do it and get your 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.800 opinion draft in circulation before he makes the next set 0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:01.400 of assignments. Otherwise you will risk getting well the miserable case. 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.880 I could never understand why lawyers that appeared before the court, 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.079 who appeared before the court and not people who were 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.160 not accustomed to the court, but some very seasoned lawyers 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:22.200 would get these two women mixed up. And Sander Day 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:28.160 O'Connor was about five seven or eight. You claimed to 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:35.160 be over five ft tall. Uh. She was a Western 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.400 ranch girl with a Western twang. You were a New Yorker, 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.000 a Brooklyn girl. I don't know that it was a 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:46.880 Brooklyn twang, but you were clearly an Easterner. Uh. She 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.240 didn't wear her hair the way you do. Um. And 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:56.960 still people kept calling you Justice O'Connor and her Justice Ginsburg. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:04.720 Why more much more often? I always called Justice O'Connor. Oh. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.720 The lawyers had learned there was a woman on the 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.520 court and her name was Justice O'Connor, so when they 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:18.120 heard a woman's voice, it had to be Justice O'Connor 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:27.840 that she would sometimes respond, I'm Justice O'Connor, she's Justice Ginsburg. 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.120 There was a lot of attention paid to the two 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.640 of us and how we interacted, and one day, I 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.360 think it was in USA today, there was a headline. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:49.720 The headline was rude Ruth interrupts Sandra. Sandra had asked 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:54.360 a question at argument. I thought she was finished, and 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.920 she said, just a minute I have follow up questions. 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.760 I apologize to her and she said, Ruth, don't give 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.080 it another thought. The guys knew it to each other 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:13.200 all the time. There even was a T shirt presented 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.440 to the two of you, I think by I think 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.520 it was the Radcliffe somebody, some group of women from 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:25.640 Radcliffe and one side said I'm Sandra, I'm Sandra, not Ruth. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.160 It was the National Association of Women Judges. They had 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.800 a reception for the two of us and they gave 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:38.000 her a T shirt that said I'm Sandra, not Ruth. 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:44.320 Mine I'm Ruth not Sandra. But if we can fast forward, 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.200 I can tell you that doesn't happen anymore now that 0:16:48.360 --> 0:17:00.720 we are three. They're kind of a difference. Does it 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:05.560 make to have three? One is the public perception. We 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:10.160 have a line, a ten minute line, often school children 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.960 coming in and out of the court and if they 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:17.040 see three women. Because of my senior already, I sit 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.120 next to the Chief Justice, so to my horis on 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.880 one side, Justice Kegan on the other. So where one 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.600 third of the court where all over the bench And 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:36.800 as you will affirm, my sisters in law are not 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:43.720 shrinking violence. They have very active in the colloquy that 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.720 goes on at at an oral argument. For the years 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:52.760 of Justice Scalia was with us. There was kind of 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:56.359 a competition between Justice so to my art, and Justice Scaliah, 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.800 which one could ask the most questions at all argument. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:08.440 You were, um, the lone woman justice after justice so 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.560 kind of retired from two thousand and six. I think 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.560 the two thousan pretty near the end of two thousand nine, 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:21.800 and I had the sense that you were not a 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:27.680 very happy camper at that time. It was a lonely 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:36.280 position and viewing the court, it was something raw with 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:43.320 the picture. The public would see these eight rather wealth 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:55.800 and men coming on the bench, and then they were 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:02.480 this rather small a woman. M And did you find 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:07.160 that even there on occasion when you were just one, 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:13.520 did you occasionally see that phenomenon of you say something 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.520 and nothing happens, and then ten minutes later or five 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.000 minutes later, one of your brethren says the same thing, 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.480 and everybody goes, oh, that's a very good idea. Well, 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:30.639 that happened at conference, um more than more than once. 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:37.480 But I would make a comment, no reaction. Then one 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:42.400 of my male colleagues would say basically the same thing 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:49.560 and people would react. That's a good idea. Let's discuss it. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:54.800 It's a habit that had developed that you don't expect 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.840 very much from a woman, so he kind of tune 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:04.000 out when she speaks, but you listen when a mail speaks. 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.639 Now I can tell you that that experience which I 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.000 had as a member of the law faculty, as a 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.679 member of a quote of appeals, now that I have 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:33.399 two sisters in law, it doesn't happen. I'm gonna pause 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:38.520 here and ask you the question on people's minds. You've 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:43.639 had a lot of serious threats to your health this year. Uh, 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:48.760 you were operated on for lung cancer in December. You 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:53.280 have just completed three weeks of radiation treatment for an 0:20:53.280 --> 0:21:01.000 additional cancer. So how are you feeling? And excuse me, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.680 I'm really thrilled that we're here, But why are we here? 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:12.600 You you finished radiation treatment at the end of August. Yes, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:21.800 and August twenty three was the last and it was 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:26.720 the last session. But I had promised the Clinton Library 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.359 that I would be here and I just was not 0:21:29.520 --> 0:22:00.359 doing too h Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:06.680 And I'm pleased to say that I am feeling very 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:18.560 good tonight. How do you keep going? I mean you 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:23.840 you have. I've took a ton of briefs with me 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.680 on the plane here, and I managed about an hour 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:29.960 and a half's worth, and then I was ready for 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.720 a break. You do this when you're sometimes feeling really 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.800 rotten in the last year, How do you keep going? 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.320 I think my work is what saved me because instead 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:49.119 of dwelling on my physical discomforts, if I have an 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.920 opinion to write, or I have a brief to read, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.480 I know it's I've just got to get it done, 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:05.280 and so I have to get over it. Well, my 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.360 This is another instance where I got very good advice 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:14.479 from Justice O'Connor. Justice o'conna had a mastectomy and she 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:21.000 was on the bench nine days after her surgery. She 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:28.160 told me in my first chance about it was colorectal cancer. Ruth. 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:33.440 You schedule your chemotherapy for a Friday, then you can 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:37.040 get over it a Saturday and Sunday and be back 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:51.879 in court on Monday. But you have done this really 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:55.359 all of your life. Cancer is not a stranger to you. 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.560 Your mother died the day before your graduation. Your husband 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.639 was diagnosed with testicular cancer. When you were both at 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:05.800 Harvard Law School, and you had an eighteen month or 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:08.640 two year old child at the same time, and you're 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:13.120 on our review. I think I often get Justice Ginsburgh 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:16.440 just to describe what a day in her life, that 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:22.520 awful year was like. Before Marty survived and beat the odds, 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:34.520 we took it day by day. We always believed that 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:40.440 we would we would prevail, that we would beat the cancer. 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:50.679 It was not an easy time after he had surgery. 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.760 He had massive radiation because there was no chemo therapy 0:24:54.800 --> 0:25:00.840 in those days. So he would come home, be sick, 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:10.080 go to sleep, get up about twelve midnight, and whenever 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:14.720 he ate for the day, he would eat then he 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:17.560 then he would dictate his senior paper to me. I 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:21.440 had no takers for all of his classes. My routine 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.080 was I would go to my classes in the morning, 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:29.240 go to the hospital in the afternoon, come home, play 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:34.840 with my daughter, who was then two, you know, Jame 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:43.480 was three. UM put her to bed after dinner, which 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:47.760 was at midnight. I would then go back to the 0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:51.760 books and prepare for the next day. So I was 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:56.359 getting along on two hours of sleep a night for 0:25:56.440 --> 0:26:00.080 a week. On end. We always had a positive de 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:18.000 attitude that we would and that we would live. So, 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:21.399 for your last year of law school, because Marty was 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:23.240 a year ahead of you, you moved to New York 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:28.360 to be with him for his job. Um, you graduated 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:32.600 tied for first in your class at Columbia Law School. Uh, 0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:36.840 but you couldn't get a job. You and Justice. So 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:41.159 Connor used to talk about how lucky that was in hindsight, 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:44.439 that you couldn't get jobs when you graduated at the 0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:49.960 tops of your respective classes. Well, that's an example of 0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:58.919 how something that may seem dreadful, very bad luck turns 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:00.679 out to be the most which of the thing that 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:04.040 ever happened to you and Justice. So kind of put 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:10.520 it this way, she said, suppose we had graduated from 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.960 law school at a time when there was no discrimination, 0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:19.320 when women were welcome at the bar, what would we 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:24.679 be today. We would be retired partners from some large 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:30.119 law firm. But that route wasn't open to us. So 0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:34.320 we had to find another path, and that path led 0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:51.080 us to become Supreme Court justices. You were recommended for 0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:55.159 all kinds of clerkships, Supreme Court clerkships, court of Appeals clerkships. 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:59.160 Nobody would interview you none of these, because in those 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:02.160 days they were all in would would interview you. You 0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:05.960 finally did get a clerkship back then thanks to the 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:12.359 rather assertive intervention of one of your professors, UM, who 0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:17.399 basically said to your judge, the judge who hired you, 0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:23.760 if you take her and it doesn't work out, I 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:25.959 have a guy who I'll send to you. He's at 0:28:25.960 --> 0:28:29.439 at a law firm now, but if you don't, I 0:28:29.440 --> 0:28:35.119 will never send you another Columbia grad. Um. So you 0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:38.360 went to work for Judge Palmieria ended up for two years, 0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:41.040 despite the fact that you had two strikes against you 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:45.000 where you were not only a woman, you were a mother. Um. 0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:48.800 But one of the charming stories of this period of 0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:51.719 your life is that one of the judges who turned 0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:55.000 you down and was not interested in you was Judge 0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:59.320 Learned at Hand, a very famous, famous judge, and he 0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:04.479 turned you and because she said he couldn't swear in 0:29:04.520 --> 0:29:10.240 front of you. So so you pick up the story 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:18.880 from here. Gentle Learned Hand lived one block away from 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:23.080 the judge for whom my clerk, Judge Palmieri and Judge 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:28.680 Promieri often drove Lord a Hand home when I was 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:33.320 finished in time I would ride up town with them 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:38.520 sitting in the back seat, and this great juris would 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:43.800 say anything that came into his head, words that my 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:50.360 mother never taught me. And I asked him, you say 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:52.960 you won't consider me as a clerk because you would 0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:57.440 have to censor your speech, and yet in this car 0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:04.760 I I don't seem to inhibit you at all. And 0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:15.040 his response was, young lady, I am not looking at you. UM. 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:18.400 For those of you who have not seen RBG or 0:30:18.440 --> 0:30:22.480 the biopic on the basis of Sex, I recommend both. 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:28.320 They provide a pretty good view of your career prior 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:32.440 to becoming a judge and then later a Supreme Court justice. 0:30:33.840 --> 0:30:40.920 But what used to strike me when I covered your arguments, UH, 0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:45.760 was how you had tailored your arguments. You had an 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:50.200 all male Supreme Court, and you tailored your gender discrimination 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:55.920 cases the arguments in those cases to appeal to different 0:30:56.080 --> 0:31:03.960 justices in different ways, and you often had male plaintiffs, UM. 0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:09.640 And one of those male plaintiffs was Stephen Wisenfeld, whose 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:14.680 wife died in childbirth and who was denied Social Security 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:20.120 benefits for his remaining his child, who survived, even though 0:31:20.200 --> 0:31:24.560 his wife was the principal breadwinner, and you won. But 0:31:24.640 --> 0:31:28.120 there were basically three arguments that succeeded, and I wanted 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:32.560 you to talk about each how each group of justices 0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:39.440 saw it. First, let me tell the audience how Stephen 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:45.600 Wisenville came to my attention. He had written a letter 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:50.680 to the editor to his local paper in Edison, New Jersey, 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:54.960 and he said, I've been hearing a lot these days 0:31:55.000 --> 0:32:02.920 about women's lib Let me tell you my story. My 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:10.920 wife died of an embolism just after our son was born, 0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:19.200 and I knew that there were benefits available to a 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:26.240 soul surviving parent who had a young child to take 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:30.000 care of. So I went to the Social Security office 0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:35.200 to claim those benefits, and I was told, we're very sorry, 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:43.920 Mr Wisenfeld. These are mother's benefits then not available to fathers. Now, 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:47.240 it was obvious to me that although the plaintiff was 0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:53.360 a man, the discrimination was against the woman as wage earner. 0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:57.400 She paid the same Social Security taxes that a man 0:32:57.520 --> 0:33:05.760 would pay, but her contributions did not net for her 0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:12.120 family the same protection. So I think it was the 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:15.160 dominant view of the court that this was really discrimination 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:19.960 against the woman as wager. In it, A few of 0:33:20.040 --> 0:33:24.000 the justices said, no, it's discrimination against the mail as parent. 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:29.000 He doesn't have the option to personally care for his child. 0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:33.960 Under the Social Security you could earn a certain amount 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.480 and still get the Social Security benefits. If you earned 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:42.680 over the limit, the benefits would re reduce stollar for dollar. 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:45.880 And why is a felt had figured out I can 0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:50.440 do part time work, earn a certain amount and keep 0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:55.640 those benefits. So some of the justice has said, it's 0:33:55.720 --> 0:34:00.320 obvious that its discrimination against the mail as parent he 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:03.560 has no choice but to work full time, who doesn't 0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:08.880 have the option to care personally for his newborn. And 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:13.799 then it was one who later became my chief, then 0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:17.520 Justice Frankist, who said, it's totally obitrary from the point 0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:20.759 of view of the baby. Why should the baby have 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:25.120 the opportunity for the care of a soul surviving parent 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:31.640 only if that parent is female and not if the 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:35.480 parent is male. So it was such a wonderful illustration 0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:41.680 of how gender based discrimination hurts everyone, hurts women, hurts 0:34:41.719 --> 0:34:55.040 men and sol Then there was a case that you 0:34:55.160 --> 0:34:57.640 had that you wanted to take to the Supreme Court, 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:03.719 but you couldn't because the case involving me, I think 0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:12.040 army or Air Force. Uh, pregnant woman, This isn't Struck case. 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:18.840 I had hoped that that would be the first reproductive 0:35:18.920 --> 0:35:25.880 choice case that the Court would hear. The case of 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:33.120 Rose in when Captain Struck was serving in the Air 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:42.840 Force and she was serving abroad when she became pregnant. 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:51.160 Pregnancy in those days was a mandatory ground for discharge. 0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:56.359 The base commander said to her two years before, will 0:35:56.400 --> 0:36:03.279 we wade, you can have an abortion on base. We 0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:08.480 provide those for women in service and wives of men 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:13.239 in service, and if you do, you can remain in 0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:19.200