1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: On September eight, the world lost an extraordinary person with 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: a brilliant mind and a caring heart, a trailblazer who 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: will be remembered as one of the most influential advocates 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: for equality in the history of our country. I'm talking, 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: of course, about Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: dedicated her life to widening the circle of opportunity and 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: opening doors for countless others who came after her, and 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: who became a pop culture sensation, the notorious RBG in 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: the process. I've often said that nominating Justice Ginsburg to 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court was perhaps the best decision I've made 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: as president. I'll never forget the first time we met, 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: when I invited her to the White House for an 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: interview as I weighed my decision about the Supreme Court nomination. 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: Just about ten minutes into our talk, it was already 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: clear to me that she had the best combinations of 16 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: skills and instincts of any of those I was considering. 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to appoint someone who was open minded, passionately 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: committed to equality, and determined to work with the other 19 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: judges to try to forge consensus when it was possible, 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: and also willing to stand up for them when it wasn't. 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: For more than twenty seven years on the Supreme Court, 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: she went above and beyond even my highest expectations. So 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: why am I telling you this? Because as we celebrate 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: Women's History Month, Ruth Bader against Bird's remarkable story is 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: an important reminder of the barriers she faced in her 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: life and career, systemic obstacles that her male counterparts were 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: not subject to and often didn't even consider. She didn't 28 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: just overcome those barriers, she tore many of them down, 29 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: and use your own experiences to in former decades of 30 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: work on behalf of others whose voices weren't being heard today. 31 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: I want to share a part of that story is 32 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: told by Justice Ginsburg herself. In Justice Ginsburg joined NPR 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: Legal Affairs correspondent Needa Totenberg for a special conversation hosted 34 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: by the Clinton Presidential Center as part of the computer's 35 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: Distinguished Lecture series. I often wonder if, as a young lawyer, 36 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: she could have even imagined that the eighties, six year 37 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: old Supreme Court justice version of herself wouldn't be filling 38 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: arenas normally reserved for concerts and sports events and acting 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: as a role model for girls and boys who dreamed 40 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: of living in a country dedicated to genuine fairness and equality. 41 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: As you listen to this episode, I asked that you 42 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: do so not just with a heavy heart that Justice 43 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: Ginsburg is no longer with us, but with a sense 44 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: of gratitude for the many years of wisdom, guidance, and 45 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: inspiration she gave us. Her work made America stronger, fairer, 46 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: more just, and we're all better because of her service. 47 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: That is a gentleman, just a Skinsbourg. The need to 48 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: talking bird. Thank you, thank you. Need everyone need be ceded, 49 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: need be ceded, Thank you, thank you, thank you, um, 50 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: thank you all for coming. I think Justice Skinsburg and 51 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: I have never ever appeared before an audience this large 52 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: before war, and uh, I understand that normally this is 53 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: I guess recently the worldwide wrestling entertainment. We are not 54 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: going to wrestle each other. We're going to try to 55 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: entertain you a bit and inform you. UM you've heard 56 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: President Clinton describing his why he picked Justice Ginsburg. But 57 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: I think I should start this interview asking you about 58 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: that interview. UM, So let me set the stage. The 59 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: year is the new President is flirting with all manner 60 00:04:54,880 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: of potential Supreme Court nominations, and uh, the names keep 61 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: getting leaked to the likes of me Um and behind 62 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: the scenes, the inimitable Martin Ginsburg is doing everything in 63 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: his power to promote his tiny but auspicious wife. Uh. 64 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: And finally you get a call from burning us Baum 65 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: the White House Council, and it's a call that you 66 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: had long hoped for. But you are in something of 67 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: a fashion dilemma. So tell us about how you got 68 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: the call that day calling you to the White House 69 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: and what your fashion dilemma was. I was called on 70 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: a Saturday in Vermont, where I was to attend a wedding, 71 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: and Bernie Nus said, the President wants to meet you. 72 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: Please come back to d C. And I said, well, 73 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: I've told all this way to attend the wedding. Can 74 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: I come tomorrow morning? And he said fine, We'll go 75 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: right from the airport to the White House. And I said, 76 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: but I'll be wearing my traveling clothes. Oh that's okay, 77 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: because the President would be just coming off the golf course. 78 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: So I arrived in by playing clothes and incomes a 79 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: very handsome president wearing his Sunday best because he just 80 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: comes from church. So what was the conversation with the President? 81 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: Like what kinds of things did he ask? And did 82 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: you have a good time or were you in interview agony? 83 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: Though it was very easy to talk to the President. 84 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: We talked about constitutional law, after all, he was a 85 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: constitutional law professor. We talked about family, have we talked 86 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: about many things. And I've had the experience with some 87 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: men that they have a certain discomfort talking to a woman. 88 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: That was not that way with President Clinton. So I 89 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: was told after that interview by a number of White 90 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: House aides, but he just felt for you, hook line 91 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,239 Speaker 1: and sinker. And this afternoon when we were talking, he said, 92 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: in five minutes, I had just fallen for her hook 93 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: line and sinker. Um, but when did you get the word? 94 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: Do I recall that you got a call from burning 95 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: us down when you were in the bathtop or something 96 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: like that. That night it was rather late on Sunday night, 97 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: and it was one of the happiest moments of my life. 98 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: I was absolutely on cloud nine. And then the President said, 99 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: and tomorrow morning, we will have a little ceremony in 100 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: the Rose Garden, and we'd like you to make a 101 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: few remarks. I had to come down from the cloud 102 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: sit at my writing table. I liked the remarks. It 103 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: was the only time in that entire episode when there 104 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: was no time from White House handless to go over 105 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: what I was going to say, my own words, unedited. 106 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: You know, you then went into a confirmation process. I 107 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: think in the end you got I'm not sure about this. 108 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: I think there were only three Thank you. Republicans today 109 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: all often cite the Ginsburg rule, And when I go 110 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: back and I read the transcript, I read about what 111 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: your rule was. But it strikes me that in light 112 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: of modern confirmation hearings, more modern confirmation hearings, UH nominees 113 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: are considerably less responsive of all political strikes, not just 114 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: Republican nominees. You actually answered questions about abortion and the 115 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: death penalty and all kinds of things. The Ginsburg rule 116 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: was that you please do not ask a question that 117 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: may come before the court, because then I would have 118 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: to disqualify myself if I gave an answer, because the 119 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: judge is not supposed to react just off the top 120 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: of her head when a question is presented to us. 121 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: We read first of all the decisions that were written 122 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: by the courts below, the trial court, Court of Appeals, 123 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: and then we read the briefs that are anything but 124 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: brief filed by the lawyers, and we read the relevant President. 125 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: So to give an answer to a question without the 126 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: benefit of all that reading and briefing is not what 127 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: a judge to do. Still, there was a lot out 128 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: there that I could be asked about. Because I was 129 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: seventeen years of a law teacher, thirteen years a judge 130 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: on a Court of Appeals. I had written hundreds of opinions, 131 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: many articles, and anything that I had already written was 132 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: fair game. So you arrived at the court. You're the 133 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: second woman, and Justice O'Connor had been there for twelve 134 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: long years without you. Right, what advice did she give you? 135 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: She told me just enough to enable me to navigate 136 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: those early weeks. She didn't douse me with a bucket 137 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: full of information, just enough to get by. She was, 138 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: I think, very pleased at a change the court made 139 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: when I was appointed. Justice O'Connor was a lone woman 140 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: on the court for twelve years. In our robing room, 141 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: there is a bathroom and it says men for Justice O'Connor, 142 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: when the need a rose she had to go all 143 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: the way back to her chambers. When I came on board, 144 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: they rushed a renovation. They created a women's bathroom equal 145 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: in size to the men's. Your first opinion assigned to you, 146 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: it was not quite what you expected, and you went 147 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: to her. Yes. The legend is that the new justice, 148 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: the junior justice, will get a single issue case in 149 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: which the court is unanimous. Her Chief Justice Frienklis gave 150 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: me as my first assignment a Miserable Orissa case. Arissa 151 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: is the Employee Retirement Security Act. It is one of 152 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: the most complex statutes Congress ever wrote. The quote was 153 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: not unanimous, divided six to three, and Justice O'Connor was 154 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: on the other side. She was one of the three. 155 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: So I came to her and I said, Sandra, he 156 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: was not supposed to do that to me. Her response, 157 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: and this is typical of Justice O'Connor. She said, Ruth, 158 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: you just do it. Just do it and get your 159 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: opinion draft in circulation before he makes the next set 160 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: of assignments. Otherwise you will risk getting well the miserable case. 161 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: I could never understand why lawyers that appeared before the court, 162 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: who appeared before the court and not people who were 163 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: not accustomed to the court, but some very seasoned lawyers 164 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: would get these two women mixed up. And Sander Day 165 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: O'Connor was about five seven or eight. You claimed to 166 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: be over five ft tall. Uh. She was a Western 167 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: ranch girl with a Western twang. You were a New Yorker, 168 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: a Brooklyn girl. I don't know that it was a 169 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: Brooklyn twang, but you were clearly an Easterner. Uh. She 170 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: didn't wear her hair the way you do. Um. And 171 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: still people kept calling you Justice O'Connor and her Justice Ginsburg. 172 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: Why more much more often? I always called Justice O'Connor. Oh. 173 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: The lawyers had learned there was a woman on the 174 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: court and her name was Justice O'Connor, so when they 175 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: heard a woman's voice, it had to be Justice O'Connor 176 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: that she would sometimes respond, I'm Justice O'Connor, she's Justice Ginsburg. 177 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: There was a lot of attention paid to the two 178 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: of us and how we interacted, and one day, I 179 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: think it was in USA today, there was a headline. 180 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: The headline was rude Ruth interrupts Sandra. Sandra had asked 181 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: a question at argument. I thought she was finished, and 182 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: she said, just a minute I have follow up questions. 183 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: I apologize to her and she said, Ruth, don't give 184 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: it another thought. The guys knew it to each other 185 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: all the time. There even was a T shirt presented 186 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: to the two of you, I think by I think 187 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: it was the Radcliffe somebody, some group of women from 188 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: Radcliffe and one side said I'm Sandra, I'm Sandra, not Ruth. 189 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: It was the National Association of Women Judges. They had 190 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: a reception for the two of us and they gave 191 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: her a T shirt that said I'm Sandra, not Ruth. 192 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: Mine I'm Ruth not Sandra. But if we can fast forward, 193 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: I can tell you that doesn't happen anymore now that 194 00:16:48,360 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: we are three. They're kind of a difference. Does it 195 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: make to have three? One is the public perception. We 196 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: have a line, a ten minute line, often school children 197 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: coming in and out of the court and if they 198 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: see three women. Because of my senior already, I sit 199 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: next to the Chief Justice, so to my horis on 200 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: one side, Justice Kegan on the other. So where one 201 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: third of the court where all over the bench And 202 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: as you will affirm, my sisters in law are not 203 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: shrinking violence. They have very active in the colloquy that 204 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: goes on at at an oral argument. For the years 205 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: of Justice Scalia was with us. There was kind of 206 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: a competition between Justice so to my art, and Justice Scaliah, 207 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: which one could ask the most questions at all argument. 208 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: You were, um, the lone woman justice after justice so 209 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: kind of retired from two thousand and six. I think 210 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: the two thousan pretty near the end of two thousand nine, 211 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: and I had the sense that you were not a 212 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: very happy camper at that time. It was a lonely 213 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: position and viewing the court, it was something raw with 214 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: the picture. The public would see these eight rather wealth 215 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: and men coming on the bench, and then they were 216 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: this rather small a woman. M And did you find 217 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: that even there on occasion when you were just one, 218 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: did you occasionally see that phenomenon of you say something 219 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: and nothing happens, and then ten minutes later or five 220 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: minutes later, one of your brethren says the same thing, 221 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: and everybody goes, oh, that's a very good idea. Well, 222 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: that happened at conference, um more than more than once. 223 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: But I would make a comment, no reaction. Then one 224 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: of my male colleagues would say basically the same thing 225 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: and people would react. That's a good idea. Let's discuss it. 226 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: It's a habit that had developed that you don't expect 227 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: very much from a woman, so he kind of tune 228 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: out when she speaks, but you listen when a mail speaks. 229 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: Now I can tell you that that experience which I 230 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: had as a member of the law faculty, as a 231 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: member of a quote of appeals, now that I have 232 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: two sisters in law, it doesn't happen. I'm gonna pause 233 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: here and ask you the question on people's minds. You've 234 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: had a lot of serious threats to your health this year. Uh, 235 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: you were operated on for lung cancer in December. You 236 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: have just completed three weeks of radiation treatment for an 237 00:20:53,280 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: additional cancer. So how are you feeling? And excuse me, 238 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: I'm really thrilled that we're here, But why are we here? 239 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: You you finished radiation treatment at the end of August. Yes, 240 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: and August twenty three was the last and it was 241 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: the last session. But I had promised the Clinton Library 242 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: that I would be here and I just was not 243 00:21:29,520 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: doing too h Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, 244 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: And I'm pleased to say that I am feeling very 245 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: good tonight. How do you keep going? I mean you 246 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: you have. I've took a ton of briefs with me 247 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: on the plane here, and I managed about an hour 248 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: and a half's worth, and then I was ready for 249 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: a break. You do this when you're sometimes feeling really 250 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: rotten in the last year, How do you keep going? 251 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: I think my work is what saved me because instead 252 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: of dwelling on my physical discomforts, if I have an 253 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: opinion to write, or I have a brief to read, 254 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: I know it's I've just got to get it done, 255 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: and so I have to get over it. Well, my 256 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: This is another instance where I got very good advice 257 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 1: from Justice O'Connor. Justice o'conna had a mastectomy and she 258 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: was on the bench nine days after her surgery. She 259 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: told me in my first chance about it was colorectal cancer. Ruth. 260 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: You schedule your chemotherapy for a Friday, then you can 261 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: get over it a Saturday and Sunday and be back 262 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: in court on Monday. But you have done this really 263 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: all of your life. Cancer is not a stranger to you. 264 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: Your mother died the day before your graduation. Your husband 265 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with testicular cancer. When you were both at 266 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: Harvard Law School, and you had an eighteen month or 267 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: two year old child at the same time, and you're 268 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: on our review. I think I often get Justice Ginsburgh 269 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: just to describe what a day in her life, that 270 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: awful year was like. Before Marty survived and beat the odds, 271 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: we took it day by day. We always believed that 272 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: we would we would prevail, that we would beat the cancer. 273 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: It was not an easy time after he had surgery. 274 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: He had massive radiation because there was no chemo therapy 275 00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: in those days. So he would come home, be sick, 276 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: go to sleep, get up about twelve midnight, and whenever 277 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: he ate for the day, he would eat then he 278 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: then he would dictate his senior paper to me. I 279 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: had no takers for all of his classes. My routine 280 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: was I would go to my classes in the morning, 281 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: go to the hospital in the afternoon, come home, play 282 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: with my daughter, who was then two, you know, Jame 283 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: was three. UM put her to bed after dinner, which 284 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: was at midnight. I would then go back to the 285 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: books and prepare for the next day. So I was 286 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: getting along on two hours of sleep a night for 287 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: a week. On end. We always had a positive de 288 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: attitude that we would and that we would live. So, 289 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: for your last year of law school, because Marty was 290 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: a year ahead of you, you moved to New York 291 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: to be with him for his job. Um, you graduated 292 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: tied for first in your class at Columbia Law School. Uh, 293 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: but you couldn't get a job. You and Justice. So 294 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: Connor used to talk about how lucky that was in hindsight, 295 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: that you couldn't get jobs when you graduated at the 296 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: tops of your respective classes. Well, that's an example of 297 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: how something that may seem dreadful, very bad luck turns 298 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: out to be the most which of the thing that 299 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: ever happened to you and Justice. So kind of put 300 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: it this way, she said, suppose we had graduated from 301 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: law school at a time when there was no discrimination, 302 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: when women were welcome at the bar, what would we 303 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: be today. We would be retired partners from some large 304 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: law firm. But that route wasn't open to us. So 305 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: we had to find another path, and that path led 306 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: us to become Supreme Court justices. You were recommended for 307 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: all kinds of clerkships, Supreme Court clerkships, court of Appeals clerkships. 308 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: Nobody would interview you none of these, because in those 309 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: days they were all in would would interview you. You 310 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: finally did get a clerkship back then thanks to the 311 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: rather assertive intervention of one of your professors, UM, who 312 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: basically said to your judge, the judge who hired you, 313 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: if you take her and it doesn't work out, I 314 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 1: have a guy who I'll send to you. He's at 315 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: at a law firm now, but if you don't, I 316 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: will never send you another Columbia grad. Um. So you 317 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: went to work for Judge Palmieria ended up for two years, 318 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: despite the fact that you had two strikes against you 319 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: where you were not only a woman, you were a mother. Um. 320 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: But one of the charming stories of this period of 321 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: your life is that one of the judges who turned 322 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: you down and was not interested in you was Judge 323 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: Learned at Hand, a very famous, famous judge, and he 324 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,479 Speaker 1: turned you and because she said he couldn't swear in 325 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: front of you. So so you pick up the story 326 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: from here. Gentle Learned Hand lived one block away from 327 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: the judge for whom my clerk, Judge Palmieri and Judge 328 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: Promieri often drove Lord a Hand home when I was 329 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: finished in time I would ride up town with them 330 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: sitting in the back seat, and this great juris would 331 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: say anything that came into his head, words that my 332 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: mother never taught me. And I asked him, you say 333 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: you won't consider me as a clerk because you would 334 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: have to censor your speech, and yet in this car 335 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: I I don't seem to inhibit you at all. And 336 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: his response was, young lady, I am not looking at you. UM. 337 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: For those of you who have not seen RBG or 338 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: the biopic on the basis of Sex, I recommend both. 339 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: They provide a pretty good view of your career prior 340 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: to becoming a judge and then later a Supreme Court justice. 341 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: But what used to strike me when I covered your arguments, UH, 342 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: was how you had tailored your arguments. You had an 343 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: all male Supreme Court, and you tailored your gender discrimination 344 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: cases the arguments in those cases to appeal to different 345 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: justices in different ways, and you often had male plaintiffs, UM. 346 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: And one of those male plaintiffs was Stephen Wisenfeld, whose 347 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: wife died in childbirth and who was denied Social Security 348 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: benefits for his remaining his child, who survived, even though 349 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: his wife was the principal breadwinner, and you won. But 350 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: there were basically three arguments that succeeded, and I wanted 351 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: you to talk about each how each group of justices 352 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: saw it. First, let me tell the audience how Stephen 353 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: Wisenville came to my attention. He had written a letter 354 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: to the editor to his local paper in Edison, New Jersey, 355 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: and he said, I've been hearing a lot these days 356 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: about women's lib Let me tell you my story. My 357 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: wife died of an embolism just after our son was born, 358 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: and I knew that there were benefits available to a 359 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: soul surviving parent who had a young child to take 360 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: care of. So I went to the Social Security office 361 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: to claim those benefits, and I was told, we're very sorry, 362 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: Mr Wisenfeld. These are mother's benefits then not available to fathers. Now, 363 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: it was obvious to me that although the plaintiff was 364 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: a man, the discrimination was against the woman as wage earner. 365 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: She paid the same Social Security taxes that a man 366 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: would pay, but her contributions did not net for her 367 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: family the same protection. So I think it was the 368 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: dominant view of the court that this was really discrimination 369 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: against the woman as wager. In it, A few of 370 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: the justices said, no, it's discrimination against the mail as parent. 371 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't have the option to personally care for his child. 372 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: Under the Social Security you could earn a certain amount 373 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: and still get the Social Security benefits. If you earned 374 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: over the limit, the benefits would re reduce stollar for dollar. 375 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: And why is a felt had figured out I can 376 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: do part time work, earn a certain amount and keep 377 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: those benefits. So some of the justice has said, it's 378 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: obvious that its discrimination against the mail as parent he 379 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: has no choice but to work full time, who doesn't 380 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: have the option to care personally for his newborn. And 381 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: then it was one who later became my chief, then 382 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: Justice Frankist, who said, it's totally obitrary from the point 383 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: of view of the baby. Why should the baby have 384 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: the opportunity for the care of a soul surviving parent 385 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: only if that parent is female and not if the 386 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: parent is male. So it was such a wonderful illustration 387 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: of how gender based discrimination hurts everyone, hurts women, hurts 388 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: men and sol Then there was a case that you 389 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: had that you wanted to take to the Supreme Court, 390 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: but you couldn't because the case involving me, I think 391 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: army or Air Force. Uh, pregnant woman, This isn't Struck case. 392 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: I had hoped that that would be the first reproductive 393 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: choice case that the Court would hear. The case of 394 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: Rose in when Captain Struck was serving in the Air 395 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: Force and she was serving abroad when she became pregnant. 396 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: Pregnancy in those days was a mandatory ground for discharge. 397 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: The base commander said to her two years before, will 398 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: we wade, you can have an abortion on base. We 399 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: provide those for women in service and wives of men 400 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: in service, and if you do, you can remain in 401 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: the Air Force. But if you choose to go through 402 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: the pregnancy, you are discharged, no exceptions. CITs Instruck said, 403 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: I'm a Roman Catholic. I cannot have an abortion, but 404 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: I've made arrangements to have the child adopted at birth. 405 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: I will cost the um taxpayers nothing because I'll use 406 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: only my accumulated leave time for the birth. And she said, 407 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: you know, here we are at Crop Air Force Base 408 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: where some of my male colleagues get hooked on alcohol 409 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: or on drugs, and you don't mandate their discharge. If 410 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: they report themselves, they can be in a rehabilitation program 411 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: and you will keep them from much longer than the 412 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: time I'm going to take off for this birth doesn't 413 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: make any sense. Pregnancy is a ground, a mandatory ground 414 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: for discharge. And that was that. Susan Struck brought her 415 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: case in the Federal District Court. She lost there or 416 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: by the way, she was very well represented, so she 417 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: got a stay of her discharge every month. So she 418 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: was always is in fighting to stay in, not out, 419 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: trying to get back in anyway, what happened then then 420 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: it went to the Court of Appeals. She lost again, 421 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: but there was a very good dissenting opinion, and then 422 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: I wrote a petition to the Supreme Court to hear 423 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: her case. The Supreme Court said, yes, we'll take it. 424 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: And then the Solicitor General at the time, who had 425 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: been dean of the law school Everest, attended. He asked 426 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: to have a meeting with the top military people and said, 427 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: this case has lost potential for the government. You should 428 00:38:52,760 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: waive Captain Strucks discharge and then changed the rule respectively 429 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: so that pregnancy is no longer an automatic discharge, and 430 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: and the Air Force did. And then immediately the government 431 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: moved to have the case returned to the Court of 432 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: Appeals for determination whether it was moot no longer live 433 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: because she got all the relief she was seeking, she 434 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,760 Speaker 1: remained an Air Force officer. So I called Captain Struck 435 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: and said, is there anything you're missing so that we 436 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: can claim this case is still alive? And she said 437 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: when I have all my pay and allowances, so nothing there. 438 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: But there is one thing this conversation is going on 439 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: in in two She said, all my life, I've dreamed 440 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: of becoming a pilot, but the Air Force doesn't give 441 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: flight training two women. And then we laughed because we 442 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: knew in two was much too early. It was still 443 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: an impossible dream to win that case, and the difference 444 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: between then and now is one of the reasons why 445 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: I am optimistic about the future. Today, it would be 446 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: unthinkable to deny flight training two winning Josh Skinsburg. This 447 00:40:51,640 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: maybe a little um two thinking, but I think it's 448 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,760 Speaker 1: important to talk about um and that is the notion 449 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: of originalism versus a living constitution. A majority of the 450 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: current Court believes, to one degree or another in the 451 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: notion that justices should interpret the Constitution as it was 452 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: meant by the founding fathers when it was written in 453 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: the late seventeen hundreds, that the original intent is what matters, 454 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: and the text as it was written and what it 455 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: was intended. You and most of the justices you have 456 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: served with, at least until now, have a somewhat different 457 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: take that the Constitution was written to be elastic enough, 458 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: as Justice Kennedy, now retired, put it, to accommodate changes 459 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: in society. Could you talk about your thinking a bit. 460 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: President Clinton said it so well in his introduction. Our 461 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: Constitution begins with the words we the people of the 462 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: United States, in order to form a more perfect union. 463 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: So think how things were in se Who were we 464 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: the people? Certainly not people who were held in human 465 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: bondage because the original Constitution preserves slavery, and certainly not women, 466 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 1: whatever the color, and not even men who own no property. 467 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 1: So it was a rather a lead group, we the people. 468 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: But I think the genius of our Constitution is what 469 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: Justice Sir good Marshall said. He said, he doesn't celebrate 470 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,800 Speaker 1: the original Constitution, but he does celebrate But the Constitution 471 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 1: has become now over well over you know, well over 472 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: two centuries, and that is the concept of we the 473 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: people has become ever more inclusive. So people who were 474 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: left out At the beginning, slaves, women, men without property, 475 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: Native Americans were not part of we the people. Now 476 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: all the once left out people are part of our 477 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: political constituency, and we are certainly a more perfect union 478 00:43:47,400 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: as a result of that. The Constitution, the original Constitution, 479 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: preserved the slave trade till One of the provisions that's 480 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: an embarrassment is the fugitive slave claws that said if 481 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: someone held as a slave escapes into a free state 482 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: and the master asked to get the slave back, the 483 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: slave must be returned to the master. That fugitive slave 484 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: clauses an article for the Constitution where you can still 485 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: read it today, but there'll be a star next to 486 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: it saying changed by the four Amendment, which says, you know, 487 00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: when I the first time I'm got uh Justice Ginsburg, 488 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: it was by phone, and we were both quite young 489 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,720 Speaker 1: women compared to now anyway, and I was a brand 490 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: new Supreme Court reporter reading about the first case claiming 491 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: that discrimination against women was a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment, 492 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: the first case in the Supreme Court, and it was 493 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: ultimately the case that the Court first said it was 494 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,399 Speaker 1: a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. And I didn't understand it. 495 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: And I because I said, you know, the Fourteenth Amendment 496 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: was enacted to cover UH slaves and African Americans, and 497 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't say anything about women. And I called you 498 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: up and you gave me an hour long lecture, but 499 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you for a sixty second version. 500 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: But he said, I thought the fourteenth Amendment was about race, 501 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,319 Speaker 1: and I said, yes, it certainly is about race. But 502 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: the fourteenth Amendment reads, nor shall any State denied to 503 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: any person the equal protection of the laws. No. The 504 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: first time the Supreme Court heard such an argument was 505 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies. A woman oh wanted to vote 506 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 1: and she said she was stopped at the polls. And 507 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: she said, now, I ran the Constitution and it says, no, 508 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: sha any state denied to any person the equal protection 509 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: of the law. The Court response to her was, you 510 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: are indeed a person, and you are a citizen of 511 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 1: the United States. But so too our children, and no 512 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: one would suggest that children should have the right to vote. 513 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:25,320 Speaker 1: Court has come a long way since then. The turning 514 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: point case that you asked me about was called Read 515 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: re Read. It was about Sally Read, who had a 516 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: great tragedy in her life. She had a son. She 517 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: and her husband divorced when the boy was young. The 518 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: legal term is of tender years. Sally was appointed custodian 519 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: of the child. When the boy reached his teams, the 520 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: father went to the family court and and said, now 521 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: he needs to be prepared for a man's world, so 522 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: I should be the custodian. Sally fought that she thought 523 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 1: it was would not be good for her her son 524 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,760 Speaker 1: to live in his father's home, but she lost. Sadly, 525 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,840 Speaker 1: she turned out to be right. The boy was sorely 526 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: depressed and one day he took out one of his 527 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: father's many guns and committed suicide. So Sally wanted to 528 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: be appointed administrator of his estate to take care of 529 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: whatever he left behind, which was precious little small bank 530 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: account and guitar, some records. That was about it, and 531 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:58,279 Speaker 1: she applied. Her former husband applied two weeks later, and 532 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: the probate court judges said to Sally, I'm sorry, but 533 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: the law gives me no choice. It reads this is 534 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: this was the law of the State of Idaho as 535 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:21,280 Speaker 1: between persons equally entitled to administer a decedon's of state 536 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:30,359 Speaker 1: equally entitled males must be preferred to females. The thing 537 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: about Sally Read is she was an everyday woman. She 538 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: made her living by caring for elderly or disabled people 539 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: in her home. But she thought an injustice had been 540 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: done to her, and she also believed that our legal 541 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,439 Speaker 1: system would right that role. So on her own dime, 542 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: she took the case through three levels of the Idaho 543 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 1: court courts, and then I got involved in the case 544 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: and wrote the brief for her Supreme Court case. She 545 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: prevailed with a unanimous decision. It was the first time 546 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: the case was decided in November, first time in history 547 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court ever held agenda based classification on 548 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: constitutional and and then after that precedent, we were on 549 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:52,680 Speaker 1: a roll, case after case challenging gender based classifications and 550 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: challengeing on the basis of sex and understand more and 551 00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: RBG and understand yet more. So, speaking of children for 552 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: a moment, I want to sort of lighten us up 553 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: before I close with some conversation about your late great 554 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: friend Justice Scalia and your relationship with him. But first, 555 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 1: could I get you to tell the story of the 556 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: elevator Thief. O The elevated Thief was my Then let's 557 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: see hell, it was easy. Must have been eleven. My son, 558 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: My son was a lively child. I called him lively, 559 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: but his teachers called him hyperactive. His school had a 560 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: hand operated elevator. The elevator operator went out to smoke 561 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:55,280 Speaker 1: a cigarette and one of my son's classmates dared him 562 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 1: to take the kindergartens from the ground floor up to 563 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: the top floor. M So my son did that, and 564 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,080 Speaker 1: he was greeted by three stone faces, the room teacher, 565 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 1: the school principal, of the school psychologists, and I was called. 566 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,439 Speaker 1: I was getting calls about once a month to come 567 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:28,959 Speaker 1: down to the school to hear about my son's latest escapade. Well, 568 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,839 Speaker 1: one day I was in my office at Columbia Law 569 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,880 Speaker 1: School and feeling particularly weary because I had stayed up 570 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 1: all night writing a brief, and I said to the caller, 571 00:52:41,560 --> 00:53:01,640 Speaker 1: this child has two parents, please alternate calls, and and 572 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:07,880 Speaker 1: it's his it's his father's term. So and Marty, my husband, 573 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,279 Speaker 1: went down to the school, and was told, your son 574 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,960 Speaker 1: stole the elevator. And my husband, who had a wonderful 575 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 1: sense of humans, said, so he stole the elevator, how 576 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: far could he take it? Now? I don't know. Is 577 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,279 Speaker 1: Marty's sense of humor. I suspect it was at the 578 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:35,799 Speaker 1: school was very hesitant to take a man away from 579 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 1: his work. There was no quick change in my son's behavior, 580 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:46,839 Speaker 1: but the cause came barely once a term because they 581 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 1: had to think twice before calling a man away from 582 00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:57,279 Speaker 1: his work. You and the Late Justice School used to 583 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:03,359 Speaker 1: spar incessively about this whole the whole subject of originalism 584 00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:09,840 Speaker 1: versus a living constitution and textualism. But you were great 585 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: friends for many decades. You served on the same Court 586 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,080 Speaker 1: of Appeals. You've known each other even I think at 587 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago briefly. Um, So let me start 588 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,640 Speaker 1: with that personal friendship. People seem always so surprised that 589 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 1: Justice Scalia, this iconic conservative, uh and Justice Ginsburg, this 590 00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:44,000 Speaker 1: iconic feminist. We're such good friends. So and I know 591 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,439 Speaker 1: that you really loved him. So what did you love 592 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:53,239 Speaker 1: about him? He had a marvelous sense of humor. But 593 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,360 Speaker 1: we were on the Court of Appeals together, and the 594 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,919 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals has three judges, and he would sit 595 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,960 Speaker 1: next to me and he whisper something during the argument 596 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 1: that absolutely cracked me up, and at all I could 597 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:14,520 Speaker 1: do to avoid bursting out into hysterical laughter. And one 598 00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 1: thing that we come had in common we were both 599 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 1: worked very hard on our opinions. We tried to write 600 00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:28,200 Speaker 1: them so at least judges and other lawyers and hopefully 601 00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: a lodger public could understand what we were saying. In 602 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 1: Justice Galia was the son of a H a lot 603 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: and professor at Brooklyn College, and his mother was a 604 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,960 Speaker 1: great school teacher, so he was an expert grammarian. He 605 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: would sometimes come to my chambers or call me and said, Ruth, 606 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,919 Speaker 1: you made a grammatical era. I don't want to embar 607 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: rrass you by sending you a note that would be 608 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,640 Speaker 1: circulated to all of our colleagues, but you should fix 609 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: this up. And I would call him and say, you know, 610 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,920 Speaker 1: this opinion is so strident, you're not going to be 611 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,000 Speaker 1: as persuasive as you would be if you would tone 612 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:24,440 Speaker 1: it down. He never never took that advice. We we 613 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:29,640 Speaker 1: also really really cared about family. We spent every New 614 00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:34,719 Speaker 1: Year's together, and the two couples plus as many. He 615 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 1: had many more children than I did, but whatever children 616 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 1: wanted to come along. And Justice Scalia and I shared 617 00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:50,920 Speaker 1: a passion for opera, so we were supers extras um 618 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:56,919 Speaker 1: and a couple of opera performances the Washington National Opera 619 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 1: and by making this upper did you sit on his lap? 620 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,759 Speaker 1: In one of those No, the soprano sat on his lap, 621 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: so he knew that she was going to end the 622 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: song on his lap. But what he didn't know is 623 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: it was she was going to throw her arms around 624 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: him and give him a big kiss. And you traveled together. 625 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,160 Speaker 1: There's a very funny picture in your chambers, the two 626 00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:30,160 Speaker 1: of you on to We we traveled to India for 627 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: a judicial exchange, and the two of us broke away 628 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,160 Speaker 1: from the pack for a couple of days and we 629 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: went to Rajastan and to Agara. And it was a 630 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: famous picture where in the Rambab Palace in Rajastan are 631 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: very beautiful. It was it was the palace of the 632 00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:59,920 Speaker 1: last Maharaja of Rajastan. So there was a very elegant elephant, 633 00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 1: very beautifully painted elephant, and we were taking a ride 634 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,360 Speaker 1: on the elephant and I'm sitting in the back and 635 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,520 Speaker 1: Scalia is in the front. And my feminist friend said, horrors, 636 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,720 Speaker 1: what are you doing sitting in the back of the 637 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 1: elephent And I explained it how to do with the 638 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:35,800 Speaker 1: distribution of weight. There is an opera, as you would expect, 639 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,000 Speaker 1: a comic opera, about the two of us. It's called 640 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: Scalia Ginsburg again. Why Scalia first? Because in our workplace, 641 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: Senior already really counts, and he was appointed some years 642 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:57,400 Speaker 1: before I was. So the the opera pries to portray 643 00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 1: the difference between us and Scalia's opening aria is a 644 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:11,880 Speaker 1: rage aria. It goes like this, the justices are blind. 645 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: How can they possibly spout this? The Constitution says absolutely 646 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:29,960 Speaker 1: nothing about this. And then I answer, dear Justice Scalia, 647 00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,320 Speaker 1: would you come in through a glass ceiling? Oh, that's later. 648 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,880 Speaker 1: About later? This is I've screwed up the store. This 649 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,600 Speaker 1: is the beginning, or we set up the different ways 650 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: we approach a legal text. I said, you're searching for 651 00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:54,560 Speaker 1: a bright line solution two problems that don't have easy answers. 652 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: But the great thing about our constitution is that, like 653 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: our society, it can evolve. And then there's kind of 654 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:10,400 Speaker 1: a jazz riff with let it grow, Let it Grow. 655 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:18,680 Speaker 1: The plot is um roughly based on the Magic Flute. 656 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Justice Khalia is locked in a dark room. He's been 657 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:30,439 Speaker 1: punished for excessive dissenting, and that's when I enter through 658 01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:35,960 Speaker 1: a glass ceiling to help him pass the tests he 659 01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:40,280 Speaker 1: needs to pass to get out of the dark room. 660 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:46,640 Speaker 1: Then character called a commentatory who is borrowed from Don Giovanni. 661 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 1: It's appalled. He said, why would you want to help him? 662 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:59,720 Speaker 1: He's your enemy? And I explain, he's not my enemy, 663 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: he's my dear friend. And then we seeing a wonderful duet. 664 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,720 Speaker 1: It's titled we Are Different. We are one different in 665 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:16,800 Speaker 1: our approach to reading a legal text, but one in 666 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: our reverence for the Constitution and for the Institution we 667 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:41,200 Speaker 1: served yell Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Dear notorious one, We 668 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:50,920 Speaker 1: thank you for a wonderful evening. Why am I telling you? 669 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,760 Speaker 1: This is a production of our Heart Radio, the Clinton Foundation, 670 01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:58,560 Speaker 1: and at Will Media. Our executive producers are Craig Manascian 671 01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:04,600 Speaker 1: and Will Malnaughty. Our production team includes Mitch Bluestein, Jamison Katsufis, 672 01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,840 Speaker 1: Tom Galton, Sarah Harrows, and Jake Young, with production support 673 01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:13,360 Speaker 1: from Tyler Scott and O'tavia Young. Original music by What 674 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:18,880 Speaker 1: White Special thanks to John Sykes, Tina Finois, John Davidson 675 01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:23,480 Speaker 1: on Hell Arena, Corey Gantley, Oscar Flores, Kevin Thurm, and 676 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,520 Speaker 1: all our dedicated staff and partners at the Clinton Foundation. 677 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,320 Speaker 1: If you have an idea of suggestion for the show, 678 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,440 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you, so please visit Clinton 679 01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:37,600 Speaker 1: Foundation dot org slash podcast to share your thoughts with us. 680 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,880 Speaker 1: If you like the show, tell someone else about it. 681 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,560 Speaker 1: You can subscribe to Why Am I Telling You This? 682 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,040 Speaker 1: On the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 683 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:51,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. By listening to this podcast, you're 684 01:02:51,120 --> 01:03:16,520 Speaker 1: helping support the work of the Clinton Foundation. So thank you. Hi. 685 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Street, Executive director of the Clinton Foundation, where 686 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,360 Speaker 1: we work every single day to advance President Clinton's commitment 687 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,960 Speaker 1: to public service and improve lives across the country and 688 01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,480 Speaker 1: around the world. President Clinton often reminds us that we're 689 01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,920 Speaker 1: all in this together, that we rise or fall together. 690 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 1: That's why, in the face of crisis, we enter the 691 01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,320 Speaker 1: call we act. At the Clinton Presidential Center, we've been 692 01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,320 Speaker 1: proud to work together with partners to serve hundreds of 693 01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,920 Speaker 1: thousands of meals to those struggling, to put food on 694 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:52,040 Speaker 1: the table, to get books, early learning and educational resources 695 01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,280 Speaker 1: into the hands of parents, families, and educators, who are 696 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,480 Speaker 1: navigating the realities of remote learning and need it most, 697 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: and the Center continues to serve as an educational and 698 01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:06,480 Speaker 1: cultural institution focused on cultivating the next generation of leaders 699 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,240 Speaker 1: to make our future brighter than ever. Learn more about 700 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,919 Speaker 1: this work and see how you can get involved visit 701 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:17,560 Speaker 1: www dot Clinton Foundation dot org. Slash podcast